Transcript [00:00] [music] [00:07] [music] [00:14] Hi [music] friends and welcome to the [00:16] 1840 podcast where each month we explore [00:18] a different topic balancing modern [00:20] sensibilities with traditional [00:22] sensitivities to give you new approaches [00:24] [music] to timeless Jewish ideas. I'm [00:27] your host David Bashevkin and today we [00:30] are exploring our annual exploration of [00:32] Tshua. Thank you so much to our series [00:35] sponsors Danil and Mera Stokar. I am so [00:38] grateful for your friendship and support [00:40] over all these years. This podcast is [00:43] part of a larger exploration of those [00:45] big juicy Jewish ideas. So be sure to [00:48] check out 1840.org. That's 18frty.org [00:51] where you can also find videos, [00:53] articles, recommended readings, and [00:55] weekly emails. [00:57] I am so excited about today's episode [01:01] which really I think touches upon a new [01:04] form of tshoua that we are seeing before [01:06] our eyes and that is tshoua which [01:09] literally means return. We always talk [01:12] about return to ourselves, return to [01:16] that spiritual part, return to God. I [01:19] think there is a different form of [01:21] tshoua which is tshoua to community. You [01:24] know I grew up and most communities that [01:28] people lived in it felt like they had [01:29] existed forever. Felt like the community [01:32] that I grew up in was like there from [01:34] the beginning of creation. [01:37] And now what I hear over and over again [01:40] was when people were growing up and [01:42] moving into different Jewish [01:43] communities, there was like a struggle [01:46] with finding community, building [01:48] community. And especially now post [01:52] October 7th, I think there are so many [01:54] Jews who are awakening. They're [01:56] returning to their own self. They're [01:58] returning to God. They're returning to [02:00] Jewish life. But sometimes the last [02:02] struggle which for many people could be [02:04] so hard is like how do I return to [02:06] Jewish community? What's the community [02:09] that makes sense for me and today's [02:13] conversation is with an absolutely [02:16] remarkable couple students of my dear [02:19] friend RLomocats. What I find so [02:22] remarkable about this couple is aside [02:24] from their own tshoua story which we [02:26] absolutely explore. What I find so [02:29] amazing is they are beginning a new [02:33] community in Israel. A place where [02:35] people can really find community as they [02:39] return specifically for olim people who [02:41] are moving to Israel for the first time. [02:44] I think this is the tshoua of our moment [02:47] of creating a communal experience which [02:50] is so hard to find. Very often people [02:53] struggle and I think this is genuinely a [02:56] form of tshoua. They struggle with [02:58] finding community. I think it's very [03:00] normal. All Jews can be a little [03:02] goldilocks. I think all people are a [03:04] little goldilocks when it comes to [03:06] finding a community. They want one [03:07] that's not too hot, not too cold. The [03:09] porridge has to be just right. And what [03:12] I find really so important in this very [03:15] moment is that Israel was not built very [03:18] communally oriented. And part of the [03:21] things that we take for granted, [03:22] specifically in America, is like these [03:25] longlasting communities. You know, I was [03:28] raised in the five towns. It's been [03:30] around. It hasn't been what it is now [03:32] for that long, but like it just feels [03:34] like it was there forever. There are [03:35] very old shels and old people. Israel as [03:38] a country has been there for so long, [03:40] but like really vibrant community can be [03:43] very hard to find, especially for young [03:45] people moving there for the first time. [03:47] And that's why I think a part of tshoua [03:50] is learning how to feel connected to [03:53] community. Whether that's a Jewish [03:55] community in the diaspora in America, in [03:57] the states, in Canada, Australia, [03:59] wherever it may be, or a community in [04:01] Israel, I think now is the time to find [04:03] community specifically in Israel. But [04:05] this struggle is for everyone. How do we [04:07] find community? How do we build [04:09] community? What are the ingredients that [04:12] it actually takes? This is the tshoua [04:14] for our moment. Judaism is a team sport. [04:18] It is not meant to be practiced in [04:20] isolation. In fact, it could be some of [04:23] the most painful moments that people [04:24] grapple with is when Yiddish kite is we [04:27] need to practice alone. You don't yet [04:29] have family. You don't have friends [04:30] nearby. But I think learning how to [04:33] cultivate and build community is [04:35] absolutely the form of tshoua in our [04:38] moment. a place where not just you [04:40] individually can find a home and build a [04:43] home, but building a place that can [04:45] include many people from many different [04:47] backgrounds on many different journeys. [04:50] And as hard as that may seem, as [04:53] difficult as community can sometimes be [04:55] for our identity because everybody wants [04:57] a community that kind of perfectly [04:59] reflects their values. And community by [05:02] nature never perfectly reflects any [05:05] individual's values. A community is a [05:07] group project that emerges collectively [05:11] from everyone's participation. And that [05:13] is why I am so excited for today's [05:15] episode. It is so important. It is about [05:18] an individual tshoua journey, but it's [05:21] about so much more. It's about a tshoua [05:23] that leads to community. A tshoua that [05:26] creates not just a space for one person, [05:29] one individual, but for others. An [05:31] anecdote that I once heard from my dear [05:32] friend and mentor, Rabbi Mosha Benovitz [05:35] is that, you know, somebody who you're [05:38] going and you shle a chair to bring it [05:40] over for yourself. That's a schleer. You [05:43] bring a chair from one room to another [05:45] for you to sit down on, you're [05:47] officially a schleer. You shle a chair, [05:49] good for you. When you bring two chairs, [05:51] not just for you to sit down, but a [05:53] place for somebody else to sit down, now [05:55] you're no longer a schleer. You're a [05:56] helper. That's what this episode is [05:58] about. how to do a tshouva that creates [06:01] not just space for ourselves but for the [06:04] people the friends next to us bringing a [06:06] chair not just for us to sit down but [06:09] for somebody else to find a home so [06:11] without further ado here's our [06:13] conversation with Ben and Yael deto [06:17] friends I am so excited for today's [06:20] conversation with Ben and Yael [06:25] Deto an incredible couple from Israel [06:29] building communities with a story of [06:31] your own. Before we get to what you're [06:33] doing in Israel, which is miracles built [06:36] on miracles built on miracles. Your own [06:39] story is miraculous. I want to hear from [06:42] each of you and maybe we'll start with [06:44] you, Yao, if that's okay. [06:47] >> Tell me about the world that you were [06:49] born into, your your childhood, your [06:52] upbringing. What was that Jewish world [06:54] like? [06:55] >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I grew up in a [06:58] very engaged nonorthodox family in [07:02] Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. And [07:06] there's no better word to describe my [07:08] background than really a cholen pot of [07:11] Jewish experiences. We grew up in a [07:14] kabad synagogue which gave me tremendous [07:19] love for Judaism. Really ignited a flame [07:24] and a certain light for me. So growing [07:26] up, you knew about Kabad. If I would [07:28] have asked you, you know, 15-year-old [07:31] Yael, how what type of practicing Jew [07:34] are you? Would you have even known how [07:37] you would describe yourself? What would [07:39] you have said? [07:39] >> I think I would have said that I'm [07:41] really a mix of different Jewish [07:43] experiences. We had that Kabad [07:46] background giving us a lot of light for [07:49] observant life. And then at the same [07:51] time, I went to a reformed summer camp [07:53] and that gave me so much of my base in [07:56] Judaism. It gave me love for the power [07:59] of Jewish community, for the vibrance of [08:04] singing together and just sharing in our [08:06] Jewish values. [08:08] >> I love that you look back fondly at at [08:11] meaning even though your life is no [08:13] longer, you know, kind of rooted in that [08:16] community, it still plays a foundational [08:18] role and you don't look back. I try to [08:20] point this out so often. There's a [08:23] phenomenon that when you grow in a [08:25] different direction than your community [08:26] of origin to knock it to because it's [08:29] coming from that self-hatred and I love [08:32] somebody who projects like oh it was it [08:35] was beautiful. We built on it. We went [08:37] in a different direction, but [08:38] >> gave me so much of my foundation and [08:41] absolutely. I mean, [08:43] >> what would you pinpoint reform, the [08:45] reform camp, summer camp that you went [08:48] to and you think about that foundation? [08:51] What comes to mind? What's the memory? [08:53] What's the image? You know, there's one [08:55] thing that really stands out when I look [08:56] back on that experience, which was the [08:59] the Israeli camper and staff program [09:02] they brought in, which infused the camp [09:04] with such a love for Israel. Again, it [09:07] wasn't a particularly religious camp, [09:09] but there was a love for Israel that was [09:13] built upon the relationships built [09:15] between campers, with each other, and [09:17] with their staff members. And even to [09:19] take that a step further, my family was [09:22] a host family for these campers and [09:24] staff. So every year we weren't going to [09:27] Israel, but we had Israel coming into [09:28] our home. And that gave me a profound [09:31] love for Israel from a very young age. [09:34] And I felt like that was part of me. [09:37] Now, we had my cousins who would come [09:38] and live with us for maybe a month or so [09:41] at a time, and they exposed us to a [09:44] world of Judaism that was real and that [09:47] was theirs. It wasn't uncomfortable [09:49] having cousins and family who were, you [09:53] know, we were we were the Orthodox [09:55] cousins in our family. [09:58] >> And one of my father's biggest regrets [10:00] is that we didn't get together more [10:02] often just to be able to share with the [10:05] cousins our life. For your parents, it [10:07] wasn't ever a challenge or an issue like [10:12] inviting over. You you understand what [10:15] I'm saying? My parents really are the [10:17] type of Jews who embody learn from [10:19] everyone. I they just loved it and they [10:23] they loved that we were learning from [10:26] these experiences and from these lights [10:28] of humans that were in our lives, our [10:30] cousins. And there was no contradiction. [10:33] There was just love and interest in [10:35] that. We would, you know, we could ask [10:37] them questions. We could jump in with [10:39] them. We could sit around and play [10:41] guitar with them. They were approachable [10:42] and they were ours. So too with the [10:44] Israeli the Israelis that would come [10:46] stay with us each summer. And both of [10:48] those though different expressions of [10:51] people really formed a certain love both [10:54] for Israel and for religious life and [10:58] sort of [10:59] >> very like organic the way that you were [11:01] introduced to it which I think is really [11:03] it plays a role even in what you're [11:05] doing today. I want to turn over to to [11:08] Ben. You also had kind of an interesting [11:12] or or an atypical upbringing certainly [11:15] for a couple doing what you're doing now [11:16] in Israel. What do you associate with [11:19] those early memories growing up? Tell me [11:22] the world the Jewish world that you were [11:24] born into. [11:25] >> Absolutely. So, whenever we're sharing [11:27] our story and juxtaposing our [11:28] backgrounds, I often say that the shul [11:31] that my family didn't go to growing up [11:33] was a reformed temple, whereas the shul [11:35] that Yael's family didn't go to was a [11:37] Kabad temple. Um [11:40] Yale's family is is very hamish in their [11:42] in their core. Um my parents are [11:45] wonderful but uh less heish in that way. [11:48] Uh but from a young age I had the [11:51] privilege of being in really excellent [11:52] Jewish institutions. I started off going [11:55] to a fantastic [11:57] temple temple in Los Angeles who at the [11:59] time was led by Rabbi Steve Leer who [12:01] continues to be a very close and dear [12:03] mentor of mine till this day. [12:05] >> Wow. Um then I went to uh community day [12:08] school for middle school and that same [12:10] year my family went to Israel for the [12:13] first time and I started going to Jewish [12:15] summer camp at Camp Elanim which is at [12:17] the Brandees Bardin campus of the [12:19] American Jewish University in Los [12:21] Angeles. Those two experiences together [12:25] combined with starting in a in a Jewish [12:28] day school environment totally [12:29] transformed my life because I saw for [12:32] the first time a really embodied and [12:35] lived Jewish experience that wasn't just [12:39] the teachers at Sunday school. It was [12:41] the people who were leading those [12:44] institutions and the kids who were [12:46] singing around the shabas table at camp. [12:49] the rabbis who weren't just wearing [12:50] suits and ties, but who were wearing [12:52] shorts and playing baseball with us. And [12:55] that's where I first learned to davin. [12:58] That's where I first learned to feel [13:01] shabas viscerally. [13:04] And that's I think what really sparked [13:06] in me a desire to want to learn more and [13:08] continue gravitating towards those the [13:11] the most Jewish pieces of those [13:13] experiences. [13:15] When did you each realize or have the [13:18] first thought that the direction I am [13:21] going in is going to require [13:24] me to make a more almost like formal [13:28] departure or find another form of [13:31] communal expression. meaning instead of [13:34] gravitating towards the the the Orthodox [13:37] world where especially in the United [13:39] States the divisions are even stronger [13:41] but in Israel [13:44] it's different but it it's it it might [13:46] be even more like separate in Israel [13:48] like you don't really see nonorthodox [13:51] community quite as prominent in Israel [13:54] as you do in America there's a host of [13:55] reasons for that but but when did you [13:58] each first realize that your communities [14:02] of origin are not going to be your home [14:06] base for the rest of your life. [14:08] >> I think I had an early sign of departure [14:11] when I was in high school and I was part [14:15] of BBIO and was able to rise within that [14:18] organization into different leadership [14:20] roles eventually becoming the president [14:22] of my region and that was an opportunity [14:25] to take the leadership on my own [14:28] shoulders. started to feel like this is [14:30] my own. If something's going to happen, [14:32] I need to help to drive that forward. If [14:34] I want to see change, I need to be part [14:35] of that. So, that was sort of the making [14:37] of that feeling. Um, and that stuck with [14:40] me throughout college. I was a student [14:42] at the University of Michigan and [14:44] eventually went on to take a semester [14:46] abroad at Hebrew University where I was [14:50] I met Ben and I was part of what's [14:52] called the Nakshon project through the [14:54] Legacy Heritage Foundation. And in this [14:58] program, they brought together lots of [15:01] different Jewish leaders with the goal [15:02] of going into Jewish professional work [15:05] and building Jewish professionals. Um, [15:07] and I came in, I definitely felt like I [15:11] deserved to be here, but all of a sudden [15:13] I felt like I don't know what they're [15:15] talking about. I don't know what's on [15:17] the bookshelf, and I was missing [15:19] something foundational. And I started to [15:22] wonder even with all of my gratitude to [15:25] these organizations that have shaped me, [15:27] which I really do feel. Um, but even [15:31] with that, I'm missing something here [15:33] and I need to go deeper. I need to [15:36] understand what really is making this [15:40] tradition that I need to hold that I [15:43] want to pass on to my children. And [15:46] somewhere along the line, there's a bit [15:48] of a disconnect. what I believe sort of [15:50] the kavana side isn't exactly keeping up [15:52] with the kavua side. How am I going to [15:54] bring this into my life in a way where I [15:56] can say we have you know there there are [15:58] facts on the ground that are going to [16:00] cement my Judaism into place for [16:02] generations to come. [16:03] >> You snuck in a statement. I I I want you [16:06] to to to develop that a little bit [16:08] because it was really profound where you [16:10] said how do you kind of balance your [16:14] cavanaide with your cava side? Cavana [16:17] means intention and thought and cavua [16:20] means a permanence. [16:23] Just explain what you what you mean by [16:25] that of of like learning how to navigate [16:27] that. [16:27] >> The kavana side as you said being the [16:30] side of intention and it's vital. It's [16:34] vital to be, you know, in that place of [16:36] feeling and I'm really tapping into the [16:38] Judaism. But without the Kavua side, you [16:42] know, the day after day practice, it's [16:45] very hard to guarantee that you can pass [16:48] down the tradition, you know, year after [16:51] year, generation after generation water [16:54] in your hands where like I have it right [16:56] now and like I could drink it right now, [16:58] but you you need a container. [17:00] >> Exactly. And so that's where I think [17:03] that the observant practice where the [17:06] orthodox practice really comes into [17:08] place because that's as you said the [17:10] container that's what enables sort of [17:14] there are no guarantees in life but [17:15] that's what sort of enables that as [17:18] close to you can get as a guarantee. [17:20] these practices will be passed down and [17:22] cherished and valued because there are [17:25] certain things that you have to do and [17:27] there are certain staples that keep your [17:30] Jewish life together. [17:31] >> I love that idea and I think it's so [17:34] profound. Hala is so often misunderstood [17:37] as the most like suffocating, confining, [17:41] moving, and the way that you're [17:44] explaining it, which I think is is the [17:46] actual intention of hala, which is to [17:48] connect us obviously to God, but also to [17:52] connect us to the entirety of the Jewish [17:54] people, not just in this generation, in [17:56] previous generations, in earlier [17:58] generations. I I I think is something [18:00] absolutely remarkable. I I want to shift [18:03] with the same question for you like you [18:07] know I sometimes call it like a nexus [18:09] event which is comes from a Marvel uh [18:14] short series the Loki series uh where [18:16] they talk about how multiveres are [18:19] created. There's like this nexus event [18:21] where you start to realize that I'm [18:23] going to have to kind of break off from [18:26] the trajectory of where my life would [18:29] more routinely take me and start making [18:31] decisions to build a new direction. What [18:34] when did you Ben first realize same [18:37] question that I asked Yael that your [18:39] community of origin is not going to be [18:42] the container for the remainder of your [18:44] life. [18:45] >> My inflection point was a bit earlier [18:47] than Yel's. I despite growing up in a [18:50] fantastic community in Los Angeles, I [18:52] sort of intuitively knew as uh in high [18:55] school that somehow the East Coast was [18:57] more serious Jewishly. And so I ended up [19:00] coming to college in New York. And when [19:02] I got to university, my first year, I [19:05] was at uh the joint program between [19:07] Columbia University and the Jewish [19:08] Theological Seminary. And I realized [19:10] very quickly that the most serious Jews [19:13] had spent a year or two years even in [19:15] Israel. And while it was fantastic to be [19:18] in New York and it was fantastic to be a [19:20] freshman in college, I was consciously [19:22] aware of the fact that that opportunity [19:25] was always going to be there. Whereas [19:27] this unique island in time called the [19:29] gap year program was time bound. It was [19:32] limited. And therefore, after my first [19:34] year in college, I ended up taking a [19:35] year off and ended up coming to Israel. [19:37] Now, I went on a program called [19:38] Kievonim, which was not a a yeshiva [19:40] program. I didn't even know really about [19:43] yeshiva programs at the time, but it was [19:45] a program that drew students from [19:48] diverse backgrounds [19:51] and a and a lot of modern Orthodox and [19:54] serious conservative homes. So even [19:57] though they themselves [19:59] >> are not formally orthodox [20:00] >> weren't formally orthodox or even if [20:02] they were formally Orthodox for them it [20:05] wouldn't have necessarily been [20:06] appropriate to go to yeshiva. However, [20:09] many of their peers were in Israel. So, [20:11] I'll just give you an example of one. I [20:13] think it was a Thursday evening. We're [20:14] at Mak Yehuda and all of a sudden, I [20:18] realized that some of my friends know [20:20] like the whole place. They know [20:22] everyone. [20:22] >> They know everybody in my [20:23] >> everybody there on Thursday night. And I [20:25] turned to one of them and I said, "How [20:26] do you know everyone here? Like, aren't [20:27] we on a gap here? Like, how how do you [20:28] know everyone?" [20:29] >> Like, like we're in the middle of we're [20:30] in the Middle East right now. How do you [20:32] know anybody? [20:33] >> And he turns to me and he says, "You [20:34] don't understand. 98% of my grade is in [20:38] Israel this year and that was a real [20:40] light bulb moment for me and throughout [20:42] the rest of the year I became friends [20:45] with a lot of those students and that [20:47] was [20:48] >> you like discovered the yeshiva league [20:49] basically [20:49] >> I discovered the yeshiva world and it [20:51] was the first time I stepped into [20:52] yeshiva [20:53] >> I'm I'm talking yeshiva league that's [20:55] what we affectionately call in the [20:57] United States like the modern orthodox [20:59] high schools that have floor hockey [21:01] teams and basketball teams [21:03] >> absolutely [21:03] >> you know what I mean it's not like [21:05] Yeshiva. It's not like Mir and Nerrell. [21:08] It's DRS and all the Hanks and Halbs and [21:11] all that stuff. And and you're like, [21:13] it's so funny. You're in Israel and you [21:14] know, you see somebody if you come from [21:16] the yeshiva league and you're in Israel [21:17] for the year, you know, 98% cuz you you [21:20] you've gone to camp together in schools [21:22] and all this. Absolutely. And they're [21:24] not actually spread out amongst that [21:25] many institutions. Correct. So, I'm a [21:27] friendly guy and I became friends with [21:29] >> these other guys in Jerusalem. And [21:32] through those friendships, I end up [21:34] getting invited to Orita. I get invited [21:36] to Kotel. I get invited to Harion. I get [21:38] invited to Asa Torra. I start spending a [21:41] little bit of time, not necessarily [21:43] learning in the B midash, but being [21:45] exposed to the world of what those [21:47] yeshivas look like. And then of course, [21:49] half of Jerusalem goes back to New York [21:50] in one shape or another, whether it's YU [21:52] or NYU or [21:54] >> point. I just want to jump in and I'm [21:56] sorry to ask it so bluntly. Are you [21:58] Shommer Shabas this year in Israel? Are [22:00] you where are you in terms of your [22:02] observance at this point? [22:03] >> That year I'm beginning to play with [22:05] Shabas. I'm beginning to experience it [22:09] >> in a way I've never experienced before. [22:13] >> And then when I go back to New York, I [22:15] start going to the JIC minion, which is [22:17] the modern orthodox minion at Columbia [22:21] University. [22:22] >> Not for ideological reasons necessarily, [22:24] but really for social reasons. I had a [22:25] bunch of friends and that's where they [22:26] were going. And it was the first time in [22:28] my life that I felt that I had a peer [22:29] group who was as excited about being [22:32] Jewish and practicing Judaism as I was [22:36] and weren't necessarily all interested [22:37] in being rabbis. Which [22:39] >> this is an important point. Meaning when [22:41] you grow up in the nonorthodox world, [22:45] and I don't want to paint with too broad [22:47] of a brush, but I think there's [22:48] definitely truth to this. I it it's [22:51] sometimes seen the only way to express a [22:54] seriousness for Jewish life is to become [22:56] a rabbi like a not not like to sit and [22:59] get you know I have a ra but like to be [23:01] a pulpit rabbi it's the only way and [23:03] they kind of you end up like losing a [23:06] lot of the community because like the [23:08] best and the brightest go on to be [23:10] rabbis. you don't have anybody [23:12] necessarily sitting in the pews [23:14] >> in the non-Orthodox world very often [23:16] those who are excited about Judaism or [23:18] those who enjoy leading in a late [23:21] capacity are often at some point in [23:23] their childhood tapped on the shoulder [23:25] and said you know you should really [23:26] consider going into Jewish professional [23:29] work which makes complete sense because [23:32] the Jewish world the whole Jewish world [23:34] is desperate for leadership [23:36] >> but it doesn't always match the person [23:40] And because so often that transition [23:43] happens as you say so correctly the [23:46] professional class [23:48] is very strong in their commitment is [23:50] very strong in their enthusiasm but the [23:52] lay class ends up almost being eroded to [23:54] a certain extent. [23:55] >> It's a big gap [23:56] >> because all the ones who are really into [23:58] it are are on the beimma. This point [24:01] that you're making is one of the most [24:04] important points for people who don't [24:06] fully understand the difference between [24:09] the different denominations. People [24:10] usually think the difference between the [24:12] Orthodox world and the non-Orthodox [24:14] world is about the rabbis. [24:17] And the rabbis are definitely very [24:19] different and there's truth to that. But [24:20] that's not really where the energy of [24:23] the difference is coming from. The [24:24] energy of the difference is always [24:26] coming from the community from the [24:28] bottom up of the level of education of [24:30] the masses. But I actually have this [24:32] story that I heard from Hersh Winreb [24:36] said imagine aliens come down from outer [24:39] space and they they land here and you [24:42] introduce them to each denomination and [24:44] you tell them what they're about. You [24:45] know reform is kind of a little softer [24:48] when it comes to to the law. [24:50] Conservative is the law but maybe a [24:51] little bit more. And then there's [24:52] Orthodox who are very strict. And then [24:55] you show them the three different [24:56] communities. [24:58] So they would assume the reform [24:59] community is like probably like [25:01] everybody's got their own and shul. The [25:04] conservative community is probably like [25:06] just you know you have every community [25:08] has one or two. And the orthodox [25:10] community is like very centralized. This [25:13] the strictest. [laughter] It's probably [25:15] one one shel from central casting and [25:18] the rabbis will and it's the opposite. [25:21] Meaning you go to an Orthodox community, [25:23] where do you do it? I down the block on [25:25] Friday night, up the block on the [25:27] morning, I across the the the other side [25:30] of the community during the week. It the [25:33] real differences come up not in the [25:35] professional class, but in in the in in [25:37] the lay style. So neither of your [25:40] transitions was a product of the formal [25:43] Jewish outreach movement. Meaning there [25:47] is a movement and there is a world [25:49] called Jewish outreach which is you know [25:51] what we call the Kiraov movement which [25:53] is an incredible effort to bring and [25:55] introduce Judaism beyond the Orthodox [25:57] community [25:58] >> but it is there's a formality to it. It [26:01] has like a kind of it's obviously driven [26:04] to make people orthodox. [26:06] >> What's so fascinating to me is neither [26:08] of you it seems to me I'm sure you've [26:11] interacted you but neither of you are [26:13] really a product of that. both of you [26:15] your transformations were kind of [26:18] organic. [26:19] >> Mhm. [26:19] >> Absolutely. I'll tell you that, [26:21] >> you know, we're painting with very broad [26:23] brushes here. Obviously, we had many [26:25] angels along the way, many of whom were [26:28] professionals in what you would call [26:30] Kiru, traditional Kirroof institutions. [26:32] Um, but I had a a particularly stark [26:35] experience. My first time I ever went to [26:37] a traditional Kirroof program, which was [26:40] about a year and a half after I got back [26:42] from the gap year in Israel. You're [26:43] like, Let me give it a shot. [26:45] >> I also was going to study abroad at [26:46] Hebrew University and at the time I had [26:48] been working at a Jewish day school in [26:50] Midtown Manhattan uh in college and I'd [26:53] been learning with a rabbi who worked [26:55] for who happened to live across the [26:57] street from that school. [26:58] >> Sure. [26:59] >> And he said to me, he said, "You know, [27:01] you're you're going to Hebrew University [27:02] for the semester. You've been playing [27:04] with Shabas. You've been learning more. [27:05] We've been learning together for a year. [27:07] Why don't you go to this yeshiva called [27:09] Mahon Schlommo for a couple weeks? I [27:11] think you'll enjoy it. And then anyways, [27:13] you're gonna be there for why don't you [27:14] go check it out. [27:15] >> So I I remember going [27:17] >> shout [27:17] >> out Bon Schlommo is run by Riverl [27:20] Gersonfeld [27:21] >> an incredible incredible person. [27:23] Incredible yeshiva. [27:24] >> Fantastic yeshiva fantastic institution [27:27] >> and I remember very clearly the lang. It [27:31] was the first time in my life I really [27:32] heard that language of Balchuva of the [27:34] guys walking around and speaking about [27:36] how they were Bali Chuva. Colloially, [27:38] let's be frank, we usually use that term [27:40] to somebody who grew up outside the [27:42] Orthodox community and now lives within [27:44] the Orthodox community. I remember [27:46] feeling very disassociated from the term [27:49] because my whole life, I felt very [27:52] Jewish. In fact, not just was I very [27:55] Jewish, but I was my friends called me [27:57] rabbi in high school. I was always [27:59] gravitating to the most Jewish pieces of [28:02] the experiences I were having. They [28:04] weren't traditionally orthodox, but they [28:06] were very deeply Jewish, [28:08] >> deeply Jewish and significant. [28:11] >> And so more than any intellectual idea, [28:15] which would come later and thank God, we [28:17] spent a lot of time in traditional [28:20] learning institutions. [28:21] >> Yeah, we'll talk about that. But more [28:24] than anything else, if I go back to that [28:26] paradigm of Kavua [28:29] and Cavana that we were speaking about [28:31] with Yael, it really was the sociology [28:34] of it that drew me in. And I think Ya [28:37] and I connect so deeply on so many [28:39] levels. So that's one of the pieces that [28:40] motivates what it is that we're doing [28:42] today and what it is that continues to [28:44] inspire our Jewish lives is community is [28:47] that social experience is that [28:49] experiential nature of an embodied and [28:52] lived Judaism that it's very hard to [28:54] find outside the framework of [28:56] traditional observance. [28:57] >> Exactly. and and I want to get to what [28:59] you're building now and how kind of [29:01] these experiences have allowed you to [29:04] address what I think is of the most if [29:07] not the most important issue that we [29:09] have right now. But before we get to it, [29:11] you know, one of the things that I'm so [29:13] moved by is kind of the trajectory of [29:16] your story and exactly what you said now [29:18] of why you almost don't self-identify. I [29:22] don't think you'd be offended by it, but [29:24] you don't self-identify as Bali Tishua [29:27] because like you don't draw a line in [29:31] your past of like now I'm for real [29:33] Jewish and before I was not really [29:35] Jewish. Like you said it yourself and I [29:38] want to kind of dive into this. You're [29:40] still in touch with the reformed rabbi [29:43] that you grew up with and you still [29:44] consider him a mentor and somebody who [29:46] is of value which I think is very [29:48] powerful and and really moving. Yeah. [29:51] Tell me a little bit how do your [29:53] friends, your family, how do they make [29:56] sense of your transformation? They see [29:58] you now. You have a you you read as very [30:02] classically Israeli from [30:06] h how do they make sense of you? Are [30:08] they like were you kidnapped? Were you [30:10] brainwashed? [laughter] [30:11] Like what what like you were the head of [30:15] BB YO. I'm curious if they if they look [30:19] at you as like the one that got away or [30:22] like there's a sense of pride or the [30:24] sense of just like genuine confusion [30:27] like you do you. We love what you're [30:29] doing. We do not understand how this [30:31] happened. [30:32] >> I think they see it and they see me and [30:36] they totally understand how this [30:38] happened. I mean, I think the the [30:40] makings of who I am now had been [30:42] unfolding since I was an 8-year-old and [30:45] said, "I want to start saying Shmaya [30:47] Israel every night, and I want to start [30:49] keeping some form of kosher root." It [30:51] was always there for me. And like, [30:53] >> you said that was a young kid. [30:54] >> I did. Yeah. When I was like seven or [30:56] eight years old, [30:57] >> cautious. Did you like accept trying but [31:01] [laughter] [31:02] >> like a learn as you go cautious? like I [31:05] really was, you know, I started basic I [31:07] started basics, milk, no milk and meat, [31:09] you know, no trae things like that. And [31:12] >> I think that kind of speaks to what you [31:14] were saying on the organic development [31:16] thing. It was and Ben too, we learn and [31:20] we integrate. That's sort of our [31:21] approach that we've taken. Um, and you [31:25] know, maybe that's why we got along so [31:26] well when we started meeting. But we [31:28] really are [31:28] >> learn and integrate. [31:29] >> We learn and integrate. We really [31:31] believe in acting with integrity. And if [31:34] I believe it, you're going to see it. [31:36] You're going to see it in my clothing. [31:37] You're going to see it in how I act. [31:38] You're going to see it in where I live. [31:40] That's just how I like to operate as a [31:42] person. And thank God. And [31:44] >> that's very holy. I just want to say [31:46] because I I like to draw learn and [31:48] integrate. I've met a lot of people who [31:51] learn and they have they struggle with [31:53] integration. [31:54] >> I met a lot of people who integrate but [31:56] never did the learning. You know what [31:58] I'm saying? Mhm. [31:59] >> They know the movements. They know the [32:01] thera, as we would say, the language of [32:04] the community. [32:05] >> They don't really, it's very shaky what [32:07] exactly it is we're up to and we're [32:09] doing. Learn and integrate for you. I [32:12] want to hear Ben [32:13] >> like I was very moved and you kind of [32:15] offered it. What does you know you said [32:18] Rabbi Leer who's the head of the [32:20] Wilshshire Boulevard reform [32:23] reform temple you know especially for [32:27] the community you came from [32:29] I could imagine that you were [32:31] extraordinarily promising they had hopes [32:34] that you would you you could be the [32:36] great white hope for the community of [32:39] like you know we're struggling here and [32:41] and and in the non-Orthodox world [32:44] particularly on American soil uh there's [32:46] a real need for for leadership and I [32:50] assume you know I don't like being of [32:51] the people who just like check their [32:53] watch like are there still non-orthodox [32:54] Jews? Let's wait for them to disappear. [32:56] I think it's it I think it's a very ugly [32:59] feeling and it's also wrong because [33:02] we're all connected. We don't want any [33:04] Jews to disappear. We want all the Jews. [33:06] So, but for you, [33:09] how did you maintain that relationship [33:12] even where you are now? How did your [33:15] friends react? And I'm I'm I'm really [33:17] fascinated by this relationship you have [33:18] with your childhood rabbi. H how is it [33:21] that he's not a little frustrated that [33:25] like we had an awesome awesome and like [33:29] we kind of like quote unquote like lost [33:31] him, which I think is a term that I [33:34] would we would use that term in the [33:35] Orthodox world. Like if somebody was [33:37] really promising and this amazing [33:40] personality and all this great stuff and [33:42] then they choose to go to a different [33:44] community, you know, we complain about [33:47] this. You know, you grow up in a modern [33:48] Orthodox community, it happens all the [33:49] time, and then you become yeshivish. You [33:52] go to Israel for the year and you come [33:53] and like a lot of parents are like rats. [33:55] Like we we needed that one. We wanted [33:57] that one to say. [33:58] >> How do you find your mentors and your [34:01] friends relating to you through this [34:02] transformation? I'll tell you one of the [34:06] special things about growing up in [34:09] fantastic educational institutions is [34:12] the fact that the education you receive [34:14] is really good. And when you grow up in [34:18] a home that is so pro-Jewish and so [34:21] pro-Israel and we send, you know, our [34:24] children to Israel and we have, you [34:26] know, my parents, even though they're [34:28] not traditionally observant, are [34:30] incredibly involved in the local [34:32] community. It was not unusual on a week [34:34] night to have board meetings taking [34:36] place in our living room growing up. And [34:38] I remember having a very similar [34:40] conversation with my parents at one [34:42] point and saying to them, you know, you [34:44] sent us to Israel, you sent us to Jewish [34:47] day school, you sent us to Jewish camp. [34:49] What did you think was going to happen? [34:51] We actually listened to what they were [34:52] saying there and there was some good [34:54] stuff. And then we kept kind of [34:56] following that path and [34:59] tasting more and tasting more and [35:01] wanting to learn more and and we're [35:02] still learning more. So as you said, I [35:06] don't see it as a departure. I think one [35:07] of the reasons that it's uncomfort not [35:10] uncomfortable because we are Bali Chuva [35:12] in a traditional sense but it's not an [35:15] identity that feels organically [35:18] part of who we are is because [35:21] >> there was never a light switch moment [35:24] >> a break from [35:25] >> any you you meet and we have many [35:27] friends there was the self before or the [35:30] life I was living before and then I went [35:32] to yeshiva or seminary or got in invited [35:35] to that rabbi's [35:36] his table and my life completely changed [35:40] >> which is great if that's what works and [35:42] fabulous [35:42] >> but that's not [35:43] >> but for us that was never the story it's [35:45] been a slow gradual evolution and when [35:49] you ask about our friends when you ask [35:50] about our families it wasn't like we [35:53] came home one day they hadn't seen us [35:55] for years and all of a sudden I'm [35:58] wearing a keepa's wearing me pakat and [36:00] our whole lives are different they've [36:02] been part of the ride even though they [36:04] aren't necessarily observe observant in [36:06] the way that we are observant today. Our [36:08] parents are totally supportive and they [36:12] have all in their own ways increased [36:14] their commitment and their interest in [36:17] traditional observance in Israel in [36:21] Jewish life and living as a result of [36:23] their association with us. And so it's [36:26] really a mutual journey that we're all [36:30] on together. It's not a departure from [36:32] what was. [36:33] >> I love that answer. I want to ask a [36:35] question and I'm deliberately going to [36:37] phrase it in a little bit more of an [36:39] adversarial way. I am playing devil's [36:42] advocate. This is not for anybody in the [36:44] room. This is from push back that I've [36:48] received from within the community and I [36:51] kind of want to hear both of your [36:52] answers. [36:54] You know, I have spoken positively. I've [36:57] also spoken with many non-Orthodox [37:00] leaders and um and people um not because [37:04] I was trying to secretly make them [37:07] orthodox because I think that they have [37:09] things that can be valuable to see and [37:11] to say and not always but sometimes I [37:14] have voices they're very often loud um [37:17] and they will criticize very strongly [37:19] say how can you do that how can you have [37:22] a conversation or even have a frame that [37:25] speaks positively of nonorthodox Jews is [37:30] especially a non-orthodox rabbi. Isn't [37:32] this the movement that has been [37:35] destroying [37:36] tradition and tearing things down? And [37:39] shouldn't our posture towards the [37:42] nonorthodox world be a little bit more [37:46] adversarial, be a little bit more I I'll [37:50] say angry at the very least so people [37:53] don't get confused. So there is a clear [37:55] line so people don't get confused and [37:57] that they should know that the world [38:00] that you are from to no fault of your [38:02] own again I'm speaking in in devil's [38:05] advocate to no fault of your own um but [38:08] we don't want more people going there we [38:11] want more people being Torah true etc [38:14] etc you don't have that posture thank [38:18] God honestly between me and you but I [38:20] know people who do what would you [38:23] respond respond from somebody who you [38:27] know 10 years ago you were a part of [38:29] that world or maybe 15 years ago you [38:31] were right center in that world how [38:33] would you respond from voices within [38:37] the from the orthodox world who speak [38:40] you know and I I think they're not I [38:44] understand where they're coming from we [38:45] need clear boundaries we need clear [38:48] divisions we can't talk positively you [38:52] know about the religious life in the [38:54] non-orthodox. What What are you doing, [38:55] Dove? You're you're messing up the whole [38:58] thing. How would you respond or or [39:01] really make sense of the posture that [39:03] each of you have? And I'd love to hear [39:04] from both of you. [39:06] >> I think that people within those [39:08] organizations need to be real with [39:10] themselves and say, am I doing [39:13] everything I can as a Jew to ensure that [39:16] this survives? All the more so among the [39:17] leadership. Um, and it's a real call to [39:20] action. you know, sometimes it's not [39:23] from a malicious place whatsoever, but [39:25] rather lack of basic knowledge. Um, and [39:29] the more that these institutions can [39:32] cultivate education from within, and I'm [39:35] talking like actual sitting down with [39:37] the books and understanding where does [39:40] this tradition come from, what are we [39:42] supposed to be doing? And you know [39:44] whether they're preaching the observance [39:46] of haka or you know departing from that [39:50] obviously we've personally made a choice [39:52] to very much embrace observance and and [39:55] orthodoxy but where these organizations [39:58] or you know sects of Judaism are not [40:02] embracing that they need to at least [40:03] know what they're talking about and [40:05] sometimes that's just lost. Within the [40:08] Jewish world, we have no choice but to [40:12] band together because as we're [40:14] experiencing unfortunately more and [40:16] more, we have a lot more enemies than we [40:18] think. And if we start splicing and [40:21] dicing within and tearing ourselves [40:23] apart, look where that's gotten us in [40:26] the past. I mean, we're just coming out [40:27] of the month of Av here. So, that's not [40:29] such a distant memory. At the same time, [40:31] we need to hold ourselves to higher [40:33] standards across the board. And I think [40:34] that call spans across all [40:36] denominations. [40:38] >> I appreciate that very much. Ben, what [40:40] what would you respond to somebody who [40:42] would critique your posture? [40:45] >> As I'm hearing you ask the question, I'm [40:47] actually thinking about another dividing [40:49] line issue that could be phrased, [40:52] replace a few words here and there, [40:54] which is the question of living in [40:55] Israel today or not living in Israel [40:57] today. And the Jewish community who [40:59] doesn't live in Israel and how could you [41:01] not live in Israel? and and where we're [41:02] from, we hear these conversations and [41:04] these arguments all the time. What I [41:08] would say to that question and what I [41:09] would say to your question here is it [41:12] could be that there was a time could be [41:15] that the postworld war II generation [41:18] needed clear definition. It needed Muser [41:22] and those types of boundaries to be [41:25] >> clear demarcations [41:27] >> that separated those paths. But I don't [41:30] think that's the nature of where we are [41:32] today. I've never met a Jew who grew up [41:36] in that world and who entered on their [41:39] own valition into the Orthodox world [41:42] because of a guilt argument [41:45] >> cuz some rabbi yelled at them and said [41:47] this is [41:47] >> and if they did they didn't last very [41:49] long. And the same could be said about [41:51] Israel. I've never met someone who [41:53] actually moved to Israel and made aliyah [41:56] because [41:56] >> somebody was yelling at them on social [41:58] media yelling on them or they felt that [42:00] this is the Zionistic thing to do and we [42:03] have to rebuild the land. It has to come [42:05] from [42:07] a place that's internal. That's the [42:10] generation we live in today. And even if [42:12] it doesn't even if the influence that [42:15] might push you in that direction could [42:17] be varied, the end result is going to be [42:19] does it speak to you? Does it fill you [42:22] with warmth? Are the people in your [42:24] surrounding community embracing? [42:27] Is it authentic to the type of person [42:29] you want to be in the world? Does it [42:31] make you actually a happier person? You [42:33] know, one of the most amazing things you [42:34] find is when you spend time in certain [42:38] in in certain types of balshiva, [42:41] you often find people walking around [42:43] very serious, very serious. their faces [42:45] are scrunched and and they're very [42:46] focused on on learning all the rules and [42:48] trying to do all the right things and [42:50] and learning the right way and pron [42:51] pronunciating all the words correctly [42:53] and that makes total sense. I like that [42:55] you mispronounced pronouncing. [42:56] [laughter] [42:57] Can you call the pronunciating [42:59] >> pronouncing all the words correctly? And [43:02] >> and that makes complete sense. There is [43:04] an overwhelming amount to learn. But at [43:06] the end of the day, [43:08] when you see the most dynamic and [43:10] embracing Kiru of rabbis out there, the [43:13] one trait that they all share is a sim [43:16] is a over life itself, [43:18] >> bubbly personality that just [43:22] exudes how wonderful this lifestyle is. [43:25] At the end of the day, that's what [43:27] touches hearts and souls. give giving [43:30] people a hard time for particularly from [43:33] a vantage point that isn't from that [43:36] place, [43:38] it doesn't go very far. Can I ask you a [43:40] little bit more directly? I mean, you [43:42] mentioned it. Um, I'm just curious your [43:45] relationship with your childhood rabbi [43:47] and you called him a mentor, which I [43:49] actually found extraordinarily moving. [43:52] What do you find when you keep in touch, [43:54] what do you find yourselves talking [43:55] about together? [43:58] I'll tell you it's not just my childhood [44:00] rabbi. I mean I have many mentors from [44:02] the non [44:03] >> traditionally orthodox world who I've [44:05] been privileged to learn and grow from [44:08] >> of course many mentors in the more [44:09] traditional world now. [44:11] >> Um I think at some point in my journey I [44:15] realized that I'm a big boy. I can put [44:19] on my big boy pants so to speak. [44:21] >> Yes. And I can be in conversation and [44:23] friendship and dialogue with people who [44:25] I don't believe 100% or don't agree with [44:28] 100% of what they are or who they are, [44:31] what they stand for and still learn a [44:33] tremendous amount from them. [44:35] If you want to go more specific. [44:37] >> No, I like I like that you said I'm a [44:39] big boy. I'm [44:42] I I I I I can be allowed to exist in my [44:45] own life without like like a a [44:48] chaperone, you know, like a religious [44:50] chaperone right behind. Oh, no, no, [44:51] don't talk to that guy. Like, don't go [44:53] over there. Like, [44:54] >> and I should say that it works on both [44:55] sides of the spectrum. [44:57] >> Meaning, one of my favorite things to do [44:59] during Bayman is to go and sit in the [45:01] Mir Shiva with my Rebi, Rabbi Mosha [45:03] Jinian, and learn Gumarra. [45:06] I don't live in that world. That's not [45:08] the community that I'm you would [45:10] associate me with, but I love it and I [45:12] appreciate it and I see how much there [45:14] is to gain from it. And I can be there. [45:18] I can, you know, respect it and and [45:21] benefit from it and still go back to [45:23] Katimon and and, you know, be a bit more [45:27] >> I think the key factor is is what [45:29] exactly you said and I I I I wish it [45:32] wasn't as gendered, but I think it [45:33] applies. I'm a big boy. meaning learning [45:36] how to feel at home in your own skin, in [45:39] your own life. If if the starting point [45:43] is stable and firm and strong and you [45:46] know what it is that who you are, [45:48] there's so much more room to engage to [45:51] interact because when you're in unstable [45:55] and where you are as a person, then [45:56] every person you meet is a referendum on [45:59] on your lifestyle. Why are you firmer [46:01] than me? Why are you less firm than me? [46:02] Cuz you're not stable. When a person's [46:05] stable, when the change is organic and [46:07] real, you meet somebody who is [46:09] colloquial a little bit more from or a [46:12] little bit less from than you. Okay, you [46:15] you're doing you. We could talk. It's [46:19] not a break. It's not a rupture. And [46:20] that's really the theme. One of the [46:23] things I remember so powerfully from [46:26] that first experience I ever had at [46:28] Mahon Schlama, you mentioned Rabbi [46:29] Gersonfeld before is in one of the [46:30] opening schmoozes he gave during that [46:32] program, he said, [46:33] >> "Did you end up going to Mahama?" [46:34] >> I was there for just a couple weeks. [46:36] >> Okay. [46:36] >> I was It was like I think [46:38] >> you get kicked out, right? [laughter] [46:41] >> It was a It was a winter break program. [46:44] >> Have a very nice relationship. Like we [46:46] kicked that guy out. You had him on. I [46:48] [laughter] want to make sure that's not [46:49] the story. [46:51] I remember during one of the opening [46:53] schmoozes he said to the there he said [46:56] to be a healthy balchuva you have to be [47:00] a babira you have to be a master over [47:03] making your own decisions if you just [47:05] embrace and just spoon feed what is [47:07] being given over to you that's not a [47:10] recipe for being a healthy well-rounded [47:12] person and that always had a very deep [47:14] impact on me in both directions as we're [47:16] saying um and I think we all in a [47:19] certain sense have a true north inside [47:20] of ourselves elves. Sometimes we swing [47:22] to the right, sometimes we swing to the [47:24] left, but our internal clock, so to [47:27] speak, know what's right. And [47:30] >> each of us has a true north. I love [47:32] that. And we really do. And and [47:35] sometimes to find the true north, you [47:37] have to spend a little time in a little [47:39] bit off to one side, a little bit off to [47:42] the other just to know what home [47:44] >> feels like. I want to be clear. I [47:47] wouldn't recommend to students today or [47:49] to people in the community necessarily [47:52] that should take the path that we've [47:55] taken necessarily because that's the [47:57] path that we had. [47:59] >> But nevertheless, I'm incredibly [48:01] grateful and appreciative for that path [48:03] because it has allowed us to really [48:05] taste and see so much beauty in the [48:08] Jewish world. There are very genuine, [48:11] incredible people trying very hard to [48:15] spread and in certain cases here here in [48:19] the US save Judaism. And I just want to [48:22] always be a force of applauding and [48:24] encouraging those efforts. And I never, [48:26] God forbid, want to be amongst those [48:28] trying to put them down. [48:29] >> Amen. Yeah. [48:30] >> Well, I I think there's also one other [48:32] angle to it, which is that and it might [48:35] be known but sometimes taken for [48:37] granted. The barrier to entry for [48:39] religious life can be high. There's a [48:42] lot to learn. There's a lot to know. [48:44] There's an etiquette. There's different [48:45] things. And I know for myself, it took a [48:50] while to get into that and really learn [48:53] what's on the bookshelf. And I was able [48:56] to study at a handful of different [48:58] places that spanned the spectrum about [49:01] Paris, Nishmat, Migdell's, MRC, and even [49:05] Net for a little bit. We got to dip. [49:07] >> You got to taste [49:08] >> all of these places, which was [49:10] phenomenal. Like Ben said, I don't know [49:13] that every person needs to go to all [49:15] these different places, but it gave an [49:17] experience to what these different [49:21] worlds of Judaism can look like, which [49:23] has been tremendously beneficial. And at [49:25] the same time, I know the barrier to [49:27] entry can be high. So when we talk about [49:29] what does that look like for the broader [49:31] Jewish world outside of orthodoxy, it [49:34] doesn't mean that all of the [49:36] responsibility is on the orthodox Jews [49:38] to include because that's not how it [49:41] works. It's a two-way, you know, [49:42] multipleway relationship between these [49:45] different branches of Judaism. But it's [49:47] important to remember, especially among [49:50] orthodoxy, there is a barrier to entry. [49:52] And as much as we can be inclusive and [49:55] inviting and welcoming and [49:58] really showing Orthodox Judaism in a [50:02] beautiful way that's inspiring, that's [50:04] what brings people in. I know that was [50:06] the case for me when I started to see [50:09] the colors and the different textures of [50:13] Judaism, especially in Israel. That lit [50:17] something up for me where I said, "Wow, [50:18] I can see myself among those people." [50:21] And it was from that place of a rut zone [50:24] that I felt like I really want to, you [50:26] know, jump in. Yeah. To run towards it. [50:29] >> Let me ask you before and I want to get [50:31] because we haven't even touched upon [50:33] what you're doing now in Israel, which [50:34] is just so jaw-dropping, but but my last [50:36] question in terms of your own personal [50:38] journey, you know, you talk about the [50:40] barrier to entry into Orthodox life and [50:42] you really have an important perspective [50:44] on that. What were there any barriers [50:47] that you found particularly [50:50] difficult? uh for each of you. I'm [50:52] actually very curious. this. I would [50:54] love to do a full episode on this uh and [50:57] it's not for now, but as an Orthodox [51:00] Jew, I am always kind of like a little [51:04] surprised when I see women able to fully [51:09] kind of culturally transition and move [51:13] within the the modesty world, which [51:16] which I think of anything is is is [51:19] extremely restrictive. It basically [51:21] tells you how and you're living in [51:23] Israel, it's really really like hot and [51:25] even within the Orthodox world, there [51:27] isn't quite a strong consensus. You [51:31] know, there's a there's like we're [51:33] moving towards an idea of what exactly [51:36] are the boundaries of of modesty, but [51:39] but I'm curious to hear from each of [51:41] you, but [51:42] >> what were the barrier of entries that [51:44] you remember the most as being most [51:46] difficult? But if you have like a moment [51:48] to just how you were able to integrate [51:51] so organically the world of you know I [51:55] want to call it modesty but I'm really [51:58] talking about sneas like you know the [51:59] cultural world of orthodox dress [52:02] >> the cultural world of orthodox dress [52:05] really is such a topic and it's so [52:07] important and I think I'll give two [52:12] answers on one hand coming from the [52:15] nonorthod orodox world. At some point, [52:19] I'm doing these different interviews and [52:20] things and I start to look around at the [52:25] difference that that exists between how [52:27] men need to dress for interviews and how [52:30] women need to dress for interviews. And [52:32] it sort of, you know, without going into [52:35] too much detail, you can kind of imagine [52:36] what that looks like. It's a lot more [52:38] revealing on the on the women's side. [52:41] And you have to ask yourself as you know [52:45] at a young woman when I'm thinking about [52:47] all this why is it necessary to reveal [52:51] oneself physically when that's really [52:54] not the point here. So that was sort of [52:56] a push and more importantly though is on [53:00] the pull side is what type of society [53:03] are we creating? What type of society do [53:06] I want my children to be in? And the [53:09] answer to that is that it's one that [53:11] values the sanctity of a couple. And by [53:14] dressing in a way that says I have what [53:17] to save, I'm preserving that for my [53:19] family life is so important in terms of [53:23] what that creates between a couple. The [53:25] dynamic that creates between different [53:27] genders within society and also for what [53:30] children see in the home. Um I am a very [53:33] strong proponent for modest dress and [53:37] it's amazing to be in a time too where [53:39] that is taking on a very beautiful [53:42] essence to it and there's more to [53:44] >> personality now [53:45] >> very much so I feel actually very [53:48] fortunate to be part of a society that [53:50] values that um and but as you said that [53:53] comes with a mindset shift a big mindset [53:56] shift of what is the goal here what are [53:58] we trying to build we're trying to build [54:00] families and we're to build a society. [54:02] Were there barriers to entry that you [54:04] felt like I don't know that I can I [54:07] don't know that I'll be able to ever [54:08] master this or like when it was first [54:10] introduced to you being like [54:13] >> like like I can see like every day how [54:15] many times when exactly like [54:17] >> so right I didn't grow up in a society [54:19] with hair coverings for example that [54:21] just was not part of the nonorthodox [54:23] world now you know in our households [54:27] grow raising from from birth you know [54:30] FFB children [54:31] >> FFB from from birth people who graze [54:34] within the orthodox world. Sure. [54:35] >> Well, we have we have diversity in our [54:37] community, but that's something that [54:38] they will know as you know that's the [54:41] first thing that they knew is is women [54:43] wearing hair coverings. [54:44] >> Um but for me it was I think there's [54:50] always a leap at some extent. You can't [54:53] have 100% certainty about something that [54:55] hasn't happened yet. This is going to be [54:57] the right thing. you're 95 98% certain [55:01] and there's always that moment of taking [55:03] a leap and Hashem needs you need to [55:05] believe that Hashem's going to catch [55:06] you. And so that's where we're able to [55:08] lean on the tradition. This has been [55:09] working for thousands of years. There's [55:13] a reason for it. We have to trust our [55:15] sages and our rabbis on some level. And [55:17] I know that might just sound a little [55:18] bit ky what I'm saying, but it's [55:20] honestly true. When you look around the [55:22] broader world and see so many things [55:23] that are not working, you have to look [55:26] at what is working. I couldn't agree [55:27] more. I don't look at necessarily the [55:29] rabbis or the sages. I look at our [55:32] community. Meaning I look the community [55:35] it's working. Is it perfect? No. No. No. [55:38] Community by definition is not perfect. [55:39] It's not one. [55:40] >> Well, maybe even on that topic, I would [55:42] even rephrase that further to say and we [55:43] have to actually look at the women who [55:45] have been upholding that because on this [55:46] particularly female topic, I think you [55:49] have to look at who the the women that [55:51] have actually been holding that up. And [55:53] a lot of the practice of modesty is [55:55] exactly that. it's in the home. It's [55:57] It's not in the limelight. And that's [55:59] where that comes through. Um, and we [56:01] have to trust and embrace that and [56:04] support one another in that. [56:06] >> I'm curious, Ben, for you, barriers to [56:09] entry, things that were kind of [56:10] difficult because your intro was so [56:13] organic and so social. It feels like you [56:16] kind of learned the movements of Judaism [56:19] with just almost unconsciously cuz you [56:22] learn the move. Was there anything that [56:24] was introduced to you that you were [56:25] like, I don't know about this one. I [56:27] don't know if I'm going to be able to [56:28] get to like any in terms of that [56:30] introduction to barriers to entry. [56:32] >> I'll tell you honestly, even though [56:34] today I've learned to embrace it and [56:35] sort of wear it on my shoulder much more [56:37] so, is that when you enter the [56:40] traditional world, you realize that one [56:42] of the most beautiful pieces is the [56:44] primacy that's placed on education and [56:47] Torah learning and specifically on [56:49] Talmud study. Now, I'm dyslexic. I grew [56:52] up with tremendous amounts of summer [56:56] school and challenges learning to read [56:58] and to write and grammar and all of [57:01] those things. And so adding that to [57:03] Hebrew in the opposite direction tracing [57:06] on a gamarra page is not a simple feat [57:10] to say the least. [57:12] And I remember one of my rebies saying [57:15] at a certain point, you know, there's [57:17] just certain things that it's just it's [57:20] tas knowledge, meaning it's a amount of [57:23] time that you're sitting on your tukus [57:25] and banging it into yourself. And that [57:29] has been true to a certain extent. Now, [57:31] if you say to me, Ben, are you God's [57:33] gift to Talmud study? The answer is no. [57:36] Not yet. Not yet. Very good. Not yet. [57:40] And I've learned to understand that [57:43] while it's incredibly important and it's [57:46] something that I spend time on every [57:47] single day, I may not ever be as [57:51] comfortable or as fluent in that world [57:54] to the same extent that someone who grew [57:56] up from age elementary school learning [57:59] Baba Basra. [58:01] But as long as I'm involved in it and as [58:04] long as I'm putting in a lot of work, [58:07] that doesn't mean that I don't have a a [58:10] place to contribute in the traditional [58:12] world. And because of the other [58:14] experiences I have been privileged to [58:16] have, integrating those into my broader [58:20] toolkit, so to speak, can really create [58:23] something that is valuable in and of [58:25] itself, despite not having a traditional [58:27] yeshiva background. This is not based on [58:30] any scholarship whatsoever, but I could [58:33] only imagine and after spending some [58:35] time with both of you, um, the same way [58:38] that we sometimes talk about people who [58:40] are blind uh, developing or like really [58:44] fine-tuning their sense of of hearing, I [58:47] could imagine that somebody who [58:49] struggles with dyslexia, as you just [58:52] shared, which yeah, that would make [58:55] Talmud study, that would make second [58:56] language acquisition [58:59] uh a little difficult. I probably if you [59:01] had told me that I probably would have [59:02] said, "You know what? You you should [59:03] become a rabbi in Israel." [laughter] [59:04] I probably would not have recommended [59:06] that. But that's beautiful because you [59:07] never asked, which is really so amazing. [59:10] Uh but I imagine that the dyslexia you [59:13] honed in on other social skills that [59:16] doesn't require, you know, line by line [59:19] decoding of of of letters, which is [59:22] really the perfect transition to talk [59:24] about where you are now. And this is [59:27] this is really why we decided to talk. [59:31] You know, I got a call from a two-time [59:34] guest on 1840. Somebody who I consider [59:37] one of the genuine great living sadikim, [59:40] the righteous people of our generation. [59:41] He'll kill me for saying so because [59:43] that's not how he introduces himself. [59:45] But it's my dearest friend uh and and [59:48] Kavusa from from way back when. Uh Ravio [59:52] Bronstein, Rabbi Bronstein, who wrote uh [59:55] an incredible book on the Labavich Rebi. [59:57] I believe it is right over there [59:59] engaging the essence. Uh and and has [60:01] done incredible work on Ruf Cook. He's [60:04] been on twice both to talk about Ruf [60:06] Cook and to talk about Libavi. He called [60:08] me up and said, "I have this this young [60:11] couple [60:11] >> and working with his father-in-law on [60:13] Rafolvatrix." [60:14] >> Absolutely. The Rashimas Kushin that he [60:17] put together, but I I got a call from [60:20] Yoseph Bronstein. He said, "I have this [60:22] young couple. They have a remarkable [60:24] story, and they're doing the most [60:25] important thing in the world, and that [60:28] is they're building community in [60:30] Israel." Which right now, in this [60:33] moment, if you were to ask me, this is [60:35] the holiest work on on earth. But I want [60:37] to phrase the question in a deliberately [60:40] maybe more controversial way and you'll [60:43] say this. You know, we we heard your [60:45] story. You're from, you know, you have [60:48] the background that you have. [60:52] What on earth would compel you people [60:55] who do not ha didn't have the yeshiva [60:57] league background didn't have the the [61:00] you know NCSY coll and studying gamura [61:03] and learning all the ins and outs of [61:05] everything since you're a kid to go to [61:07] Israel and to establish community you [61:09] know I associate people who establish [61:11] communities in Israel wildly successful [61:15] American pulpit rabbis that's one wildly [61:17] success rabbi riskin you know you you [61:20] you had hundred hundreds and hundreds of [61:22] families and now you're going to say, [61:24] "I'm going to go to Israel." Okay, maybe [61:25] that could work. Or somebody who's like [61:28] native to Israel and knows the ins and [61:30] outs. And I'm saying this in like kind [61:33] of a deliberately insulting way, like [61:36] [laughter] who do you think you and you [61:38] have a thriving community, not in not in [61:42] the boondocks, not in some, you know, [61:45] desert small in Katamon, which is like [61:49] prime real estate. I could list 20 [61:53] rabbis who spend that like I would [61:55] dream. I didn't know there was an [61:56] opening. Nobody emailed me. And here you [61:59] are building community in Israel. [62:03] Here's the question I want to pose to [62:04] you. What do you how is it that you are [62:09] being successful at this in Israel? [62:11] Meaning [62:13] you're not Israeli. You didn't have a [62:15] thriving congregation in America. You're [62:18] basically, and I'm saying this from [62:20] where I'm sitting, kind of like unknowns [62:22] to the community. You you you weren't [62:24] raised within. And here you are doing [62:27] the dream of what I would say every [62:30] rabbi in the world. [62:33] What is it that I'm missing? And what do [62:36] you attribute to your success? What's [62:39] the need right now of building [62:42] community? I I didn't if somebody would [62:44] have emailed me say, "Hey, you know, [62:46] community in Katamone looking for rabbi, [62:48] you know, check out the salary. Okay, [62:50] works good." Maybe I would have [62:52] considered it. You know, I didn't see a [62:54] go around. Obviously, that's not how [62:56] this started. What do you attribute the [62:58] success or even how you approach [63:01] community building in Israel? Ben, we [63:04] could start with you. I'll answer the [63:06] question by telling you two stories as [63:08] way of background. How did we get here? [63:10] So, when I was 18 and I was on my gap [63:13] year in Israel, somehow through a odd [63:16] series of circumstances, I got connected [63:18] with Rabbi Riskin. And I'll never forget [63:20] it. I got a call one afternoon on a [63:22] Wednesday afternoon from his legendary [63:24] secretary Mickey Mvvis and she says to [63:26] me, "Rabbi Riskin will be in Jerusalem [63:29] tomorrow. Would you like to have lunch [63:30] with him or you can come for Shabas to [63:32] Afra?" Now, I had no idea where a fra [63:35] was. I had no idea really who Rabbi [63:37] Riskin was. Um, and I certainly wasn't [63:39] uh traditionally observant, but I was 18 [63:41] and I was there for the experience. And [63:43] so, I said, "Sure, I'll come to a fra." [63:46] So I had the privilege of spending a [63:49] shabas with Riskin and when anyone who [63:52] who ever encountered Raiskin in Afrat [63:56] back in the day he used to walk from [63:58] Simka to Simka on Friday night and from [64:00] Sima to Simka on Shabbat morning. So we [64:03] went I think to maybe seven shs on [64:05] Friday night and he's wearing his becka [64:07] and people are coming up to him in the [64:09] street kissing his hand which sort of [64:10] gave me an indication of wow this is [64:12] really a very special guy. And then I [64:15] come home and to my great astonishment, [64:18] it's me, Rariskin, and his wife Vicki. [64:21] And it's just the three of us having [64:23] dinner together. And I'll never forget [64:25] that evening. And he told me a lot of [64:27] incredible things that have always stuck [64:29] with me. But I remember asking him [64:31] specifically about Afra and about what [64:33] was going on there and if that was ever [64:36] part of his imagination or did this just [64:39] happen? Did they just did this just [64:41] happen? And he said to me, "In Israel, [64:45] if you want to be a community rabbi, you [64:48] have to build it." [64:51] And that has always stuck in the back of [64:53] my mind. Now, fast flash forward 10 [64:56] years. Y and I are just finishing up a [64:59] year on in Abu Dhabi where we had the [65:02] privilege of spending a year. [65:04] >> An incredible story of its own that we [65:05] don't have time to get into. [65:06] >> Totally different topic. [65:07] >> Yeah. But we had the privilege of [65:09] spending a year at a very interesting [65:11] synagogue in Abu Dhabi just after the [65:13] Abraham Accords. And we knew we were [65:16] ready to go back to Israel. And we get a [65:18] call from our dear Rebi Ramokz [65:22] telling us that he's opening a m for [65:26] >> I need to say because you mentioned his [65:27] name. [65:29] It's crazy. I've never had Romocats in [65:31] 1840 and I think he would know this [65:33] true. I'm not going to go on. I have [65:35] great great love and admiration for Shom [65:38] Catz. He he he [65:41] gets what's happening right now. But [65:43] please continue. [65:44] >> Amen. That makes three of us in the room [65:46] and many many more out there. [65:48] Ando [65:50] tells us that he's opening a m designed [65:54] for not just learning his hashkafa of [65:58] Torat is [66:00] but he's also bringing in a tremendous [66:03] scholar who at the time we didn't know [66:05] but now is thankfully a dear Rebian [66:07] friend of ours of Ysef Bronstein and [66:10] their goal was not just to have a [66:12] community coll [66:17] but really to spend two years giving aim [66:21] an opportunity to learn the playbook of [66:25] what they've built there. Not in the [66:27] sense of trying to replicate Shiratavid, [66:29] which is the name of the community that [66:30] Romo and his built in Afrat, but in the [66:34] sense of replicating the concept of [66:37] seeing what can be possible within [66:39] Israel and not just what's possible, but [66:42] really what's needed. And so, thank God [66:45] we had an opportunity of living living [66:47] in Raflommo's community for two years. [66:50] And during that period of time, not only [66:52] did we learn and develop an an amazing [66:55] appreciation for who Rafomocats is and [66:58] who Rav Dr. Yseph Bronstein is and all [67:01] of their incredible Torah and [67:02] contribution. And so we had the [67:04] privilege of of being there and not just [67:07] learning this Torah and being engulfed [67:10] in the community, but really being [67:12] inspired and given a a patch to to go [67:16] out and do something. And we knew it was [67:19] two years from from the outset. And [67:21] towards the end of the second year, we [67:23] began thinking about what is our next [67:24] step. And you've heard now a bit of our [67:27] story. And I think we did a a [67:29] calculation. And I think before we moved [67:32] back to Katamon two years ago, we had [67:34] moved almost every single year of our [67:35] lives since we had been 18. And yeah, [67:37] and I knew that we really ideally wanted [67:40] to go to a place where we could move and [67:42] hopefully set roots and and be there. [67:46] and my rusa from the co from the mahon [67:49] ravionatanias [67:51] who ravionatan and his wife Karen are [67:54] our partners in this community that [67:55] we're creating in Katamon [67:58] who had been friends with our we had [67:59] been friends with them before we had [68:00] moved to Afrat they also were move were [68:03] interested in moving back to Katamon and [68:05] Romo said to to Yonatan and I one day he [68:07] said no guys you should go and and you [68:09] should start something and after a lot [68:12] of del deliberation and a lot of thought [68:15] Yonan and I said, "Okay, we're going to [68:17] give it a shot." And so we went to a few [68:20] more than 10 people, but we got 10 [68:22] people to give us $10,000 to give us a [68:26] one-year [68:27] runway to try to see if [68:29] >> 10 people to each give you $10,000. [68:31] >> Correct. [68:32] >> Okay, good. That [68:33] >> to give us a a one-year runway to try to [68:37] see if we could whip up what [68:38] >> get this off the ground. [68:42] Uh, [68:42] >> translate that for our audience. a a a [68:45] tempest storm, a storm that could that [68:47] could move the status quo and kind of [68:50] build something fresh like a like a a [68:53] tornado goes through like a you know [68:55] everything has its place and it moves [68:57] everything around which is good. Yeah. [69:00] >> Correct. And now you might be saying to [69:02] yourself, well, okay, you're going to [69:04] Katimon and Katamon, thank God, is [69:08] >> the prime neighborhood. perhaps one of [69:11] the most densely populated Jewish [69:14] marketplaces in the world. [69:15] >> To me, it's like it's like it's like two [69:19] young, innocent, naive ballet chuva who [69:22] are thinking, "Okay, we did our 2-year [69:24] stint in the col. We're going to open up [69:27] a shul. Where should we move to?" And [69:28] they're like, "You know what? We'll open [69:29] up a shoe in Woodmir." I'm like, "What?" [69:31] Like, [laughter] [69:32] what? Like, Katima, like, hey, aren't [69:35] there like a billion shooles there? and [69:37] like a built like I would be so I I and [69:41] I grew up I would be too intimidated to [69:43] start anything I would even know what it [69:45] means to start something I [69:46] >> so the answer is yes and that's exactly [69:48] the opportunity if you think about Adam [69:50] Smith and the wealth of nations that in [69:52] a densely populated capitalistic [69:54] marketplace [69:56] that means that there's opportunity for [69:58] tremendous specification now we weren't [70:01] opening up a minion just to have another [70:02] minion because as you said thank god [70:04] there are [70:05] >> a million placesion catch to catch a [70:08] there are plenty of minanim that's not [70:10] what was needed [70:11] >> what's so so this is the key question [70:14] and this is I want to hear from both of [70:16] you but you're going to continue and [70:17] then I want to hear what what is the [70:20] need for what is Israel missing in terms [70:23] of community right now [70:25] >> I'll say it to you in one word which is [70:27] the name of our community which is Pana [70:31] the name of our shul is Pana Jerusalem [70:34] and I think in so many ways is the word [70:37] panea which means inward which is [70:40] directional in its orientation which [70:43] wears it on its sleeve what it is that [70:45] we represent [70:47] tells the whole story. If you want to [70:49] say what does Israel need, we could have [70:52] a whole conversation about how [70:55] Jewish communal institutions have [70:57] established themselves over the course [70:58] of the last 80, you know, 75 years in in [71:01] Israel and why the institutional [71:04] synagogue didn't really [71:07] catch on in the same way. I mean, let's [71:10] why in Israel, you know, it's [71:12] interesting. [71:14] I'm not a big I'm I'm not a big [71:16] community guy. It's not it's not my I [71:18] I'm very close with the with our shul [71:21] here. You could probably see it out the [71:22] window. I'm very close with our rabbi [71:25] Cron, Benny Cone, who's actually doing [71:28] this. He's building a community in [71:30] Israel. So, I'll make sure that he gets [71:32] your number. But I I I I sometimes [71:36] downplay in America how much we rely on [71:39] community. And I think I I go too far to [71:42] the other extreme. But in Israel, [71:44] there's no like it's not like it is here [71:46] where like this is like, you know, that [71:49] there's an energy revolving around a [71:52] central location. It's like everyone's [71:54] making Shabas for themselves. Why do you [71:56] think Israel developed that way? [71:58] >> If you want to diagnose it, I think on [72:00] one foot, it comes from a certain [72:03] socialistic [72:04] societal background foundation. I think [72:07] it also is a byproduct of the Rabanoot [72:11] and the lack of church and state [72:13] separation in Israel. [72:15] >> People are like, "The last thing I want [72:16] is another rabbi in my in my life." [72:18] >> Not necessarily. I mean, there could be [72:20] some of that. I I don't I don't want to [72:22] necessarily go there. I want to say that [72:25] the concept of Judaism as an [72:29] extracurricular activity that just like [72:32] any other extracurricular activity in my [72:34] life that I need to invest in and is not [72:37] a social welfare benefit [72:39] >> requires investment. [72:41] >> Whereas Judaism obviously is not an [72:42] extracurricular activity. It's [72:44] everything. But the way that certain [72:46] state institutions developed, Judaism, [72:50] the Rabanoot, Kashus, many of these [72:53] things almost are social welfare [72:57] entitlement benefits in Israel. And [72:59] that's actually one of the [73:01] >> most attractive thing for many people [73:03] who make aliyah, the class, I don't have [73:05] to pay tuition or, you know, in their [73:07] mind they think, you know, I'm not [73:08] necessarily going to have to pay shu [73:10] dues in the same way that I do here. And [73:12] while there's a lot of truth and a lot [73:14] of good that's come out of that, there's [73:16] also a big downside, which is the fact [73:18] that for many of those people, and I [73:21] think I should also specify that the [73:23] people who feel it the most are those [73:25] who are oim, those who are [73:27] >> who are moving to Israel because rarely [73:31] does a person move to Israel if they [73:34] have not had an external Jewish [73:37] institution in their lives that was in [73:39] many ways the center of their Judaism. [73:42] And that could have been a shul, it [73:43] could have been a school, it could have [73:44] been a camp, it could have been a JCC. [73:47] Whatever it was, those institutions, [73:51] nine times out of 10, were also led by [73:54] full-time professional leaders who [73:57] viewed themselves as being in the [73:59] customer service industry. [74:02] that model I can count on my hand how [74:06] many full-time rabbis I know in [74:08] Jerusalem who their only salary their [74:11] only parnas the only thing they do [74:12] >> coming from community building [74:14] >> is coming from the synagogue in which [74:15] they work [74:17] >> for for all of these different reasons [74:20] even when you have plenty of synagogues [74:22] there are not enough institutions where [74:26] the rabbi who could be the greatest [74:28] rabbi in the world [74:29] >> but a rabbi who knows your name who [74:31] would bring up. [74:32] >> It could be all those things, but for [74:34] factors that are outside of their [74:36] control, they don't have the opportunity [74:37] to invest themselves in the communal [74:40] work in the way that they would like to [74:42] because very justifiably they're running [74:44] around and they're teaching at different [74:45] yeshivas or they're working for [74:46] different organizations in order to be [74:47] able to live like a mench. And part of [74:51] the product that we're creating and part [74:54] of the movement and the vision that was [74:56] instilled in us by Raflommo and some of [74:58] the other and even going back to [75:00] Raviskin was to say [75:04] it's needed to have a full-time [75:07] community rabbi. It's needed to take [75:09] that institutional model. We're not [75:11] replicating America and Israel. [75:14] >> Israel is its own society with its own [75:16] conventions, with its own nature. And [75:19] there's not going to be a [75:20] one-sizefits-all model, but there does [75:22] need to be a consensus that investing [75:27] into community, investing into anything [75:29] in life, you get so much more out than [75:33] if you just take and while there are so [75:35] many what I would call sort of [75:39] there are many benhivas, that's what [75:42] they call a lot of them. Sure. There [75:44] there are many places where you can go [75:47] dive in and [75:49] it's almost it's very transactional. [75:51] >> Yeah. And there are very few places and [75:55] hopefully there are more and more. And I [75:57] think that we're this project that that [75:59] Yael and I and and Ravionatan and his [76:02] wife Karen are privileged to be part of [76:05] is actually a piece of a larger vanguard [76:08] that's beginning to take root in Israel, [76:10] which is a recognition particularly [76:12] amongst OIM that it's time to [76:16] acknowledge that the Jewish experience [76:18] outside of Israel for the last how many [76:21] hundreds of years yielded a lot of [76:23] really valuable results. [76:26] And one of those really valuable results [76:28] was the concept of the Jewish [76:30] institution of the professionally run [76:31] Jewish institution. I want to I want to [76:34] just jump in and and say something [76:36] because someone if you're still [76:39] listening to this conversation which is [76:41] just enthralling but I think people are [76:44] going to think that the reason why we [76:46] included your story in our annual tshoua [76:50] series is because of the first half of [76:52] the conversation and the second half of [76:54] the conversation is just like what are [76:55] they up to now like just fill it in. [76:58] It's the opposite. [77:00] I wanted you on. I didn't know the first [77:02] half of your story. That came much [77:03] later. I think the tusha that we need [77:06] now is taking the lessons of American [77:10] jewelry, particularly the last four [77:13] generations where we have been on in [77:17] America the the primary or the majority [77:20] population that's just beginning to [77:22] shift and tilt towards Israel now. But [77:24] for four generations after the [77:26] Holocaust, there was no Europe to look [77:28] towards and there was American Judaism [77:30] and we were kind of on our own [77:32] separation between church and state and [77:35] we needed to figure out like what's the [77:37] model of Yiddishkite that is going to [77:39] survive here and we built institutions [77:42] and we built synagogues and you know we [77:44] took three steps forward two steps back [77:46] experimenting and I think this moment is [77:49] to take specifically the lessons that we [77:53] learned on American soil. And actually [77:56] now we're finally ready to bring them to [77:59] the land of Israel. And it's not that [78:01] Israel is a is a blank slate. Israel [78:03] desperately needs some of the lessons, [78:05] not all, but some of the lessons that [78:07] we've learned on American soil. So I I [78:10] want to dig a little deeper if you'll [78:11] allow me. [78:13] Y like you know one of the things that I [78:16] would imagine that is hard to uh create [78:21] community in Israel is it's much more [78:24] diffuse. Meaning when you select a [78:27] community in America, [78:29] you can almost figure out what community [78:32] makes sense when they're in. Give me a [78:35] 10th grader and I could probably pick [78:38] narrow it down to the three or four [78:40] communities that they're going to live. [78:42] I could ask a bunch of questions in town [78:44] versus out of town, modern Orthodox, [78:46] yes, [78:48] you know, uh, you know, do you want you [78:51] could you could you could figure out the [78:53] nuances [78:54] uh fairly easily [78:56] >> on American soil in Israel like everyone [79:00] I mean this is always true, but like [79:01] everyone has a story. You don't have the [79:04] sorting institutions of the same way [79:06] that you know you know a graduate from [79:08] this high school is going to want this [79:10] kind of shul and this kind of synagogue. [79:14] How did you figure out and kind of learn [79:17] how to wed the idea with the actual [79:21] lived community in Israel? [79:25] How did you develop something? you know, [79:29] there needs to be a a symbiotic [79:31] relationship between the congregation, [79:34] the community, and what's being built. [79:37] >> So, I'm curious for you, and I'm sure [79:40] all of you and the other couple for sure [79:43] all played a little bit of role, but [79:46] give me an example of like when there [79:48] was like maybe a fork in the road or [79:50] trying to figure out, you had a decision [79:51] to make, what kind of community are we? [79:55] How did you go about figuring that out? [79:57] >> Well, I think it's important to put a [79:59] little chronology on the start of the [80:01] shul. So, the shul began actually in our [80:05] living room. We just jumped in like [80:10] >> trust into this whole thing. [80:12] >> This is such a dream. I actually even [80:14] want to say first and kind of heart to [80:16] everything like it's really such aoot to [80:19] be building this. I can't even imagine. [80:22] and this is beyond our wildest dreams. [80:24] And with that, you know, there are [80:26] certain moments in life where Hashem [80:28] passes you the ball and you got to catch [80:30] it and you got to run with it. And [80:31] that's what we're doing. This has been [80:33] bootstrapping and we're just going we're [80:36] responsive to the community, the people [80:38] who show up, the feedback and [80:40] everything. So, this started in our [80:42] living room. Um, we, you know, we fit in [80:46] as many people as we could and we every [80:50] week, you know, okay, we gotta put [80:52] signage on these doors and, you know, [80:54] put the bathroom sign over there and [80:56] whatever it is, putting all of our [80:58] cedorium, just borrowing from people at [81:00] the beginning. I mean, we were just [81:02] running with it with an idea and a [81:04] vision and enthusiasm and just all hands [81:09] on deck. Um, and we saw who was showing [81:12] up and we saw the type of community that [81:15] was being built. And I know Ben will [81:16] have what to add to this in terms of [81:18] people who have come in, but we started [81:22] offering different types of programming [81:24] and really seeing what landed. We had [81:26] amazing sharing. I mean, one of the [81:28] amazing that come out of this [81:31] experience is we've been able to make we [81:34] we we were able to really be a part and [81:37] make your home a meeting place for the [81:39] sages. We've been able to have a lot of [81:41] our teachers and giants in our lives [81:44] come in to teach a shear and that [81:46] attracted different people. So, we were [81:47] able to see is are these type of events [81:50] landing? Are these sharing landing? Is [81:52] it more this and that? So we started [81:54] with Shabas and we've been able to [81:56] expand. At some point we outgrew that [81:58] space. So I guess that was I mean that [82:02] wasn't exactly a fork in the road as [82:03] much as just a natural progression of [82:05] needing new space. and Ben can speak to [82:07] that experience of kind of going to um [82:10] the second stage, but we at that point [82:15] sort of were cultivating a community and [82:17] there was just all of a sudden this [82:20] amazing wildfire moment where I think [82:23] it's partially the offering and I think [82:25] it's also just the people in the room [82:27] saying, "Wow, I really want to be here. [82:30] I want to bring a friend. This is [82:31] electric and I just want to be part of [82:33] what's going on." I mean as people find [82:36] there there's building the cle and [82:38] there's also the people within it [82:40] finding each other and that compels them [82:42] back week after week and the energy just [82:44] sort of becomes a magnet in itself. Um [82:48] and that has contributed to amazing [82:51] growth that we're just doing everything [82:54] we can to keep it going to stay [82:56] responsive to try to stay a few steps [82:59] ahead of it and um and running with it. [83:02] In what ways, if at all, do you think [83:04] your community does differ from what you [83:08] find in America? And I'm sure there must [83:11] be American rabbis with this plan [83:14] because so many peop so many Jewish [83:16] leaders in America, thank God, have [83:18] announced that they plan on making [83:20] aliyah and they're they want to get [83:23] people, you know, there's a development [83:24] or whatever it is. And I'm sure at least [83:27] one two have reached out to you. What do [83:30] you think is the misconception [83:32] or maybe I don't want to use a strong [83:35] not a mistake but like what do you think [83:38] they might be missing in that as the [83:40] classical trajectory of starting [83:42] communities in Israel versus what you're [83:45] doing which is like literally trust [83:48] falling backwards and just hope that [83:51] there's a community there to to catch [83:53] you. I want to be careful not to over [83:55] pathologize the role of what Pana is and [83:59] and and where it lands. I think that [84:03] while thank god so far it's [84:07] >> been beyond our wildest dreams and now [84:10] we're just doving to have the caim to [84:12] >> help it grow in the best way we can [84:15] together with our partners. [84:18] We are taking a very proactive approach [84:22] that might not actually fit in a [84:26] traditional Anglo environment. As you [84:28] mentioned a few moments ago, one of the [84:31] beautiful pieces about Israel is the [84:34] diversity of people who find themselves [84:36] there. Unlike certain communities you [84:38] might find in the US where it's a [84:40] certain self- selection bias that ends [84:41] up cultivating a sure an element of [84:44] homogeneity around the constituents you [84:46] might find in the same type of [84:48] synagogue. In our neighborhood we have [84:52] Jews from Yemen. We haveardim. We have [84:56] misraim. We have yeshivish. We have [84:59] karedi. We haveidim. We have American [85:04] Anglo modern orthodox. We have [85:07] everything in between and non-observant. [85:11] And as a result, we made a conscious [85:13] decision early on that our goal is not [85:16] to be a one-sizefits-all. [85:18] It's not needed and it wasn't going to [85:21] be successful. We very clearly defined [85:24] ourselves from the outset as saying what [85:26] it is that we are, which really goes [85:28] back to the name. I remember uh my [85:31] partner Ravonatan went we were debating [85:34] what to call this community when we were [85:36] just starting it and he went to actually [85:38] uh to Rafluger in Bamesh big sadic [85:41] >> sure [85:42] >> and he shared with him a few name [85:44] possibilities and I remember he said [85:45] that Rafuger when he said panea he [85:48] smiled and he said for my it wouldn't [85:50] necessarily work but for your and what [85:52] you're trying to attract that's perfect [85:54] because it very clearly signifies who we [85:57] are for example We are not an [86:00] expression. If you want an express [86:02] minion in our neighborhood, think there [86:04] are plenty to find. Now, we're not the [86:06] slowest minion around, but we're very [86:08] much focused on creating an incredible [86:12] feel experience. And I would say that [86:14] both my partner of Yonathan who's a [86:17] incredibly talented musician and artist [86:20] who has his own band and also our Khazen [86:23] who we brought in about 3 months into [86:25] the program and into the project. Yehuda [86:29] Solomon from the Moshave band [86:31] >> who happened to both be a very good [86:33] friend of Romo but also Los Angeles. [86:36] >> Oh sure. [86:37] >> Ole after 25 years. Mina Shamayim ended [86:40] up moving down the street about two [86:42] years ago from us. Uh we became friendly [86:44] with him and his and his family. And [86:48] between that combination of really [86:51] professional ballet tilot who are [86:54] creating an environment that is [86:58] I don't want to be overly uh um [87:01] hubristic but I challenge anyone to find [87:04] a tila that is as inspiring and powerful [87:09] as it is between these two cousins. [87:13] We also decided very early on that we're [87:15] going to be speaking English, which is [87:17] not an uncontroversial decision. [87:20] >> To the contrary, one of the biggest push [87:22] backs that we get is people coming up to [87:25] us and saying, "Why? You're in Israel. [87:26] Why aren't you speaking Hebrew? Why are [87:28] you only speaking English?" [87:29] >> Now, my partner Yonathan is Israeli. He [87:32] grew up in Harnof in Jerusalem. I grew [87:35] up, you know, a little bit of my [87:36] background now. My Hebrew is fine. His [87:37] Hebrew is excellent. we could be [87:39] speaking Hebrew, but and I think it was [87:42] Rafo Katz who really helped us [87:44] understand this that when you're [87:46] speaking with a community for whom the [87:50] vast majority and it's not exclusively [87:52] AngloIM we do have many native speaker [87:55] nativeborn Hebrew speakers who come it's [87:58] it's growing actually [88:00] but when you're speaking predominantly [88:03] to oim who have made the jump of moving [88:06] to Israel they're spending their days [88:09] haggling with the social services with [88:13] the kupatim the the medical facilities [88:16] they're on the street they're ordering [88:18] taxis they're they're living their life [88:20] in Hebrew and some of them have great [88:22] Hebrew and some of them don't and it's [88:24] hard to move to a place like that when [88:27] you come to shul we had to ask ourselves [88:30] very clearly what's the goal here is the [88:33] goal to sit through a devarra in Hebrew [88:34] so you can sort of give yourself a a pat [88:38] on on on the back and say, "I sat [88:39] through a Hebrew dvar Torah even though [88:41] I didn't understand most of it." Or is [88:43] the goal to open your soul to hearing [88:45] something that actually touches you? Is [88:47] the goal of synagogue of of of to be a [88:51] an ear mikl of sorts in your in your [88:54] life? [88:55] >> Place of refuge, [88:55] >> a place of refuge, a place of [88:57] inspiration, a place of encouragement, [88:59] or is it a place of proving your sort of [89:02] Israeli bonafides? [89:04] >> I think it's the ultimate question of [89:07] kind [89:08] >> meaning there's [89:09] >> there's not a one answer here. [89:10] >> There's room for the shul opan [89:12] experience [89:14] integrates you but then we need shuls [89:16] that kind of service [89:18] >> 100%. And so I'm not claiming that we [89:20] have a monopoly on truth here. I'm just [89:22] saying that we made a decision that this [89:23] is what we're doing. And we also made a [89:26] decision that we are going to be working [89:29] very hard on what it is that we're [89:32] saying, what it is we're projecting, [89:34] what it is that we're bringing in in
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