Transcript [00:00] We need to be hysterical. I think now is [00:02] the time to panic. Say we have one [00:04] advantage on the Jews 20,000 years ago. [00:07] We saw what happened to them. So we [00:10] might learn from that because they [00:11] didn't. Many times people who see the [00:13] film say ask me [snorts] why didn't they [00:16] stop at all kind of crossroads and I say [00:18] because they didn't didn't believe it's [00:20] going to go so far so quick. [00:22] >> Now talking to American jury but it [00:24] applies to everybody. urging world jury [00:28] to strengthen the voices in Israel that [00:32] seek for dialogue that urge for [00:35] inclusiveness [00:37] and not to help and not to invite the [00:40] voices that are divisive. The voices [00:44] that put Israel in the edge from the [00:46] right or from the left. The Israeli [00:49] society needs to recover from its [00:51] injures in the last couple of years. And [00:54] a part of our responsibility is to help [00:57] to strengthen the voices and I encourage [01:00] the American jury to help these forces. [01:15] [music] [01:17] The high holidays are a time to reflect [01:19] on what matters most, including the [01:21] impact we hope to make in the year [01:23] ahead. For 54 years, JCF has helped [01:26] individuals and families put their [01:28] values into action through thoughtful [01:30] philanthropy. As the nation's leading [01:32] Jewish donor advised fund, JCF empowers [01:36] donors to give more strategically [01:38] maximize charitable tax savings and make [01:40] a powerful difference with their giving [01:43] through financial expertise, operational [01:45] excellence, and highly personalized [01:47] service. JCF makes it easier to support [01:50] the causes and communities that matter [01:52] most. Learn more at jcfny.org [01:57] or follow the link in the episode [01:59] description. Jewish Communal Fund, [02:01] strategic giving, powerful [music] [02:03] impact. [02:07] Giddy, welcome to Call Me Back. Rabbi [02:09] Stav, welcome back to the podcast. It's [02:12] good to have both of you with me, [02:13] joining me from Israel. [02:15] >> Thank you. Pleasure to be here. [02:17] >> Giddy, let me start with you. First off, [02:20] congratulations on the English release [02:22] of your film Legend of Destruction. The [02:25] um the animation I must say looks looks [02:28] like I'm I'm when I was viewing the film [02:30] like a like a series of Renaissance [02:32] paintings and the and the voice acting [02:36] by uh Oscar Isaac and Evangelene Lily um [02:42] was was really remarkable. What drew you [02:45] to this to this project and really to [02:47] this tragic story and how would you [02:50] describe this film to those who haven't [02:52] seen the Hebrew version? So I'll try [02:55] start with the description of the film. [02:57] So the film uh talks about a [03:01] constituting moment in the his Jewish [03:03] history probably the history of the [03:05] world as well definitely of Christianity [03:07] too and it tells a story of uh the big [03:10] revolt of the Jews against the Romans [03:13] [snorts] [03:13] the starting in the 66 [03:16] and which deteriorated into a very dark [03:20] and crazy civil war war of brothers [03:23] [snorts] and ended in the destruction of [03:26] the temple in the year 70. [03:30] So the main story is about the war of [03:32] brothers and how it developed and how it [03:34] led to the destruction. So it's a pretty [03:36] dark movie [snorts] [03:38] and um look how did I get to it? I you [03:42] know when I was 23 when I was a young [03:44] filmmaker I went to live in New York for [03:47] a year and you know when you live in [03:49] Israel you don't see those things but [03:51] when I was there suddenly I was you know [03:53] I was looking at all the great directors [03:55] that I was admiring Martin Scusford Copa [03:59] all these guys and I saw one big [04:01] difference between them and me beside [04:02] the quality you know how great they are [04:05] that [04:07] you know they were liber modern liberal [04:09] filmmakers but living in continuous [04:11] culture meaning you can go back and back [04:16] and then you eventually you go from [04:17] liberal society to Christian society. So [04:19] you have the whole past as part of their [04:22] life part of their culture and you know [04:25] taxi driver is a odyssey of uh a [04:29] Christian odyssey and the godfather is [04:31] all about Christianity too. For me as a [04:33] filmmaker and as a young Israeli, it was [04:36] very hard to connect with my past, with [04:39] my narrative because the Zionist [04:41] [clears throat] [04:42] who started this country denounced it [04:46] and create and burned the bridge behind [04:48] them. So we because they did not want to [04:50] be identified as more anymore as as [04:53] diaspora Jews. Meaning they simply threw [04:57] this away this whole 2,000 years with [05:00] everything included in it. and I have no [05:02] access to it and the Israelis have no [05:04] access to it and I think it's a big [05:06] mission to overcome this burned bridge [05:08] to build it again because we must [05:11] connect to our own narrative and I felt [05:15] that my mission as a filmmaker should be [05:18] to build the bridge again not in order [05:20] to become religious but in order to [05:22] connect to the big narratives and big [05:25] mythology of the Jewish people of my [05:27] people in order to be able to continue [05:30] forward [05:31] to the next level. And uh that's how I [05:34] got into the subject of uh of the of the [05:37] Jewish story, you know, and uh you know, [05:39] because down deep in the Zionist [05:42] culture, there is a rejection of our [05:44] past as a Jewish diaspora past and they [05:48] threw everything. They threw the baby [05:50] with the water, Talmud, everything was [05:52] gone. We have absolutely no access to [05:53] it. And I think legend of destruction is [05:56] some kind of a climax of my own work in [05:59] this respect talking about the most [06:02] maybe the most important event in the [06:04] Jewish history and also using the [06:07] Talmudic legends meaning my own people's [06:11] storytelling style. [06:14] So uh that's how I got to it. [06:16] >> So the film begins with the following [06:18] context and I'm quoting here from the [06:20] film. This is the setup. 2,000 years [06:22] ago, Judea is under the rule of the [06:24] Roman Empire. The Holy Temple in [06:25] Jerusalem is the center of spiritual [06:27] life for the Jewish people. But the [06:30] temple has become rife with corruption. [06:33] Taxation is oppressive and the masses [06:35] are exploited by the high priesthood, [06:36] the Jewish aristocracy, and the Roman [06:39] occupiers. Jewish rebel groups are ready [06:42] to launch a rebellion. Jerusalem is on [06:45] the verge of explosion. [06:47] Rabbi Stav, now what? I I just gave this [06:50] setup from the film. So what are the [06:52] relations between the main groups here [06:54] that I just mentioned? The Romans, the [06:55] Jewish elite, everyday Judeans, and the [06:58] Jewish Zealots. What connected me to [07:00] that story and what connected me to the [07:02] to that film is the reality of our [07:06] current life and how the structure of [07:10] our society today in Israel and maybe in [07:13] the entire Jewish world reminds me a lot [07:16] of components of the Jewish society in [07:19] Judea and Jerusalem a few years before [07:22] the destructions. The Romans are the [07:24] empire. They control a huge part of the [07:28] world and Palestine, Israel, the land of [07:32] Israel is one of the territories that [07:35] they control which cons was considered [07:38] by them one of the most problematic [07:42] um places because they knew that the [07:46] Jews actually are different unlike the [07:48] Hellenist world in that time that most [07:51] of the people were ready to convert in [07:54] the Jewish people and the Jewish Jewish [07:55] group. Most of the people most of the [07:58] regular people were not ready to [08:00] cooperate with the rit changing rituals [08:04] allowing kids to um go to the stadiums [08:08] or to the gymnastic classes or other [08:10] things that the Romans brought to the [08:13] land of Israel. The Jewish people did [08:16] not cooperate with it except for one [08:18] group which was basically the rich group [08:22] which belonged to the aristocracy of the [08:26] Jewish people. A big part of them were [08:28] the grand priest families. It's not only [08:31] the grand priest, it's the families, the [08:33] people that had a the control of the [08:37] temple. The contr could be perceived [08:40] today just as a religious center, but it [08:43] will not be accurate to describe it this [08:45] way because when you get taxes from all [08:48] the Jews that bring the donations and [08:50] contributions to to the temple in order [08:54] to repaint the scenes, especially [08:56] towards the high holidays, [08:59] it's not only a place of pray. It's a [09:02] place of a lot of political and [09:05] financial power. Each priest bought his [09:09] being priest from the Romans and from [09:11] the Greece before that paying a lot of [09:14] money in order to become that priest [09:17] which means that usually speaking the [09:20] grand priests were very close to the [09:22] Romans because as a part of the job they [09:25] had to buy it from from the sovereignty [09:29] from the governor who was usually a [09:31] Roman. So they were basically connected [09:35] to the establishment to the Roman [09:37] establishment and didn't really care [09:40] about values or didn't really care about [09:44] morality or didn't really care about the [09:47] behavior of the Romans towards the Jews [09:50] because they were they were deeply [09:53] connected to them. There were regular [09:55] Jews that went to mostly were poor [09:58] followed the rabbis that didn't like the [10:01] priest most of them but most of them did [10:04] not have any intention to rebel because [10:07] they accepted upon themselves the decree [10:10] of God that the Romans should control [10:13] their lives in in the land of Israel. [10:16] There was a group that could not bear [10:20] the terrible behavior of the Romans to [10:23] our Jews. The heavy taxes and other [10:26] behaviors, sometimes decrees against [10:29] Jews didn't allow them to practice [10:32] different Jewish practices. And they [10:34] said to themselves and they started to [10:36] gather groups and the movie the the film [10:39] describes this how more and more groups [10:42] gathered around Jerusalem saying we [10:45] could not continue allowing the Romans [10:48] to disgrace the name of God. We cannot [10:51] allow ourselves to let our values to be [10:54] disgraced by the Romans or by the priest [10:57] and just because we want to protect the [11:00] temple. God prefers would rather have [11:03] people of values and behave according to [11:05] the values rather than have people that [11:08] are doing Jewish rituals and are [11:11] performing or observing commands but [11:14] actually losing and missing all the deep [11:17] content that stand behind these commands [11:20] of God. that what occurred between Jews [11:24] as one of the rabbis described in his in [11:26] his book 120 years ago he says in that [11:30] time every Jew felt that if somebody [11:33] believes a bit different he's already a [11:36] traitor he's already atheist although [11:40] just a bit shifted from our way of [11:45] looking at things each one called his [11:47] friend a traitor or atheist [11:49] >> let's now that we've set that up. Let's [11:51] watch the scene when the revolt against [11:54] the Romans breaks out. [11:56] >> Remember my sons, [11:58] when we devote ourselves to doing God's [12:01] will, no nation can rule us. [12:06] But when we fail to do God's will, [12:11] he delivers us to the lowliest of [12:14] people. [12:14] >> What's going on outside? [12:15] >> PEOPLE ARE FLEEING. [12:16] >> RABBI, see anything? [12:18] >> Roman soldiers. What is it? Woman [12:19] soldiers are being go out and help. [12:21] >> No one leaves his study hall. [12:23] >> Killing them. [12:23] >> Shut the windows. [12:24] >> Lock the doors. [12:25] >> Then we resist you. [screaming] [12:28] >> Return to your studies. [12:32] >> Return to our studies. [12:35] Was this your will [12:37] that we stand idly by while our [12:39] brother's blood [music] is spilled? [12:41] >> They've lost the alleyway. [12:46] >> [screaming] [12:46] >> Fire. [12:57] [screaming and groaning] [13:02] [screaming] [13:11] Hallelujah. [music] [13:22] No [gasps] [13:26] stop. [13:29] Please. [13:34] >> I was paralyzed by fear. I couldn't [13:37] move. [13:42] Then I remembered [13:45] >> there was not a man in sight. [13:46] >> Mercy. [13:48] >> No, [13:49] >> not a man. [13:52] >> Not a man. [13:58] >> Jewish dog. [14:12] Who is that man? [14:23] Okay. So, Giddy, after this scene, the [14:25] main character Ben Batik joins the [14:29] Zealots. [14:31] Why was the message, their message, the [14:33] Zealots's message so compelling to [14:37] ordinary Judeans? The main thing about [14:40] the Zealots is that actually they are [14:42] truth seekers. I mean, they look for the [14:44] truth. Being a zealot is not [14:45] automatically a bad thing. I mean, [14:47] Abraham was a was a zealot. Moses was a [14:49] zealot. You know there was one insight [14:51] that once I understood it, it really [14:53] made a turning point for me as a in the [14:55] writing and that was understanding the [14:58] general thing that everybody around [15:01] the whole world at that time was pagan [15:04] and besides the Jews who believed in one [15:06] god [snorts] and in paganism [15:11] the major force in the world is destiny. [15:14] It's actually a very interesting concept [15:16] because it says like if you were born an [15:18] ant then you're an ant. If you were born [15:20] a lion, you're a lion. If you were born [15:22] dancor and you're a dancor, you're not [15:24] not going to become giddy and vice [15:25] versa. So that's and your whole destiny [15:27] is coming stemming out of out of this. [15:29] That's very smart. There is another [15:31] implication to this though that it means [15:35] there will be no social mobility. If you [15:37] were born rich, it's your destiny. If [15:40] you were born poor, it's your destiny. [15:42] There is no issue of justice. You can [15:44] still see it in India in the cast today. [15:48] Now Judaism was different. God created [15:51] the world. [15:53] God has uh endless power and God wants [15:57] justice. [15:59] That's a very important concept. So the [16:02] time of of the second temple is [16:04] characterized when deep philosophy of [16:06] justice of social justice [16:09] [snorts] and at the same time a growing [16:11] corruption. [16:13] So what what Rabbi Stav described before [16:15] the like the money machine of the temple [16:17] and the super super rich Jews [16:20] cooperating with with uh with the Romans [16:24] leaving the rest in poverty ended up in [16:27] those small groups of zealots or uh who [16:30] are seeking justice and to stand in [16:33] front of the Romans and also the rich [16:35] Jews and they saw them as as uh traders [16:40] cooperators with with a with a with uh [16:42] occupier. [16:44] So they offered justice. So of course [16:48] the masses identified with them to a [16:50] certain degree. They were also afraid [16:52] from their result because you know the [16:54] elders the sages they had to do [16:56] politics. They had no choice. But the [16:59] youngers they did not want to do [17:00] politics. They said if God can do [17:02] whatever he want he wants and you trust [17:03] him and he's stronger than Rome then [17:05] just do what you what you want what you [17:07] need to do because there will be no [17:09] salvation. there will be no justice [17:11] because justice is a theological [17:13] concept. It's not just a social concept. [17:16] [snorts] And deep down [17:19] the it's not a matter of the problem [17:20] with with the zealots is not what their [17:23] ideas are. Is how far they were willing [17:26] to go for their ideas. How much blood [17:28] are they willing to spill for it? And [17:30] are they willing to spill the blood of [17:32] their own brothers if needed? And yes, [17:35] the answer was yes, they were willing to [17:36] do that too. You can see in the scene [17:38] you just showed that he's afraid to to [17:40] interfere [17:42] and then and then at that moment he said [17:44] I got to do it otherwise I will not be a [17:46] man. I will not do what God wants me to [17:48] do. And uh and you and and I wanted you [17:53] to identify with him and you see at a [17:56] later stage you will do some some [17:57] terrible stuff and then I want you to be [18:00] as an audience as part of this complicit [18:02] to be you know you know until you say [18:04] wait a minute we went too far. [18:06] >> Okay. So who are the zealots actually [18:08] fighting at this stage? [18:10] >> At the beginning it's a social social [18:12] economical war internal civil war. It's [18:15] the poor against the rich but the rich [18:18] are massacred very quickly or the you [18:20] know moderate rich high priests and the [18:24] other are trying to run away. Many are [18:26] fle fleeing the city and those who stays [18:28] are being quiet and then very quickly it [18:31] deteriorates into a war between the [18:34] zealots to one group of zealots to [18:35] another group of zealots you know like [18:37] we see many times in modern time also [18:39] with radical radical groups you know in [18:42] in in Arab countries and you know that [18:45] they they end up fighting each other you [18:47] know on small small arguments from a [18:50] certain stage it's becoming a war of [18:53] zealots fighting other zealots [18:55] a full out full-blown civil war [18:59] with with no control and nobody can stop [19:00] it now. [19:02] >> Okay. So, after most of the moderates [19:05] flee Jerusalem, uh John of Giscala locks [19:09] down the city in preparation for the [19:11] Roman attack. Now, he he plans to fight [19:15] his way to a deal with the Romans to [19:18] save Jerusalem. Barora wants to fight to [19:21] the end and a full-blown civil war [19:23] erupts inside the city between two [19:26] groups of Jewish zealots. One group [19:28] that's led by John barricades inside the [19:31] temple mount and the other led by Barora [19:33] besieged them from the outside. So, [19:35] let's just watch I want to watch another [19:37] scene. [19:56] My brave brothers, [19:58] Margara and his thugs WILL NEVER BE ABLE [20:02] TO BREAK through the walls of the Temple [20:05] Mount. [20:06] We have enough food to last a siege of [20:10] many years. [20:12] As long AS WE KEEP SACRIFICING TO GOD, [20:16] HE WILL KEEP US AND PROTECT US FROM OUR [20:18] ENEMIES. PRIESTS [20:21] CONTINUE WITH the Lord's service. [20:27] >> Psalms 121. Psalms 121. [20:37] >> [singing] [20:39] [music] [20:42] >> God of Israel, [20:44] hear my call. [20:47] >> Listen to my plea. [20:49] Accept my gifts [20:52] as daily offerings. [20:55] Each according to its law. [20:58] So you have commanded us. [21:01] So may it be. [21:06] If they only had opened the gates. [21:08] [snorts] [21:09] >> We had no choice. Bura, [21:12] >> John wants to make a pact with the [21:13] Romans. [21:15] >> Traitor. [21:17] When the Romans attack us, he'll attack [21:19] from behind. From the temple. [21:21] >> Exactly. [21:22] >> We must force them out of the Temple [21:24] Mount. [21:25] >> They cling to the horns of the altar. [21:28] They know he would never attack the [21:29] Temple Mount directly. [21:30] >> They are mistaken. [21:34] >> What? We will attack the Temple Mount. [21:37] >> You'd attack the Temple Mount. [21:39] >> You said it yourself. He won't hesitate [21:40] to betray us. [21:42] >> It's the house of God. [21:45] He will never forgive this [21:47] transgression. [21:48] >> No, Ben Mati. The God of Israel cares [21:51] not about a house, nor does he care [21:54] about sacrifices. [21:56] He cares about justice, truth, [22:02] compassion. [22:04] Benatik, the Lord of Israel, has [22:07] bestowed a holy mission upon us. I need [22:10] you by my side. [22:15] But it's a holy place. [22:17] >> If we don't force them out now, the [22:19] temple will be destroyed once the Romans [22:22] arrive. Now [22:24] fire hunts [22:32] [cheering] [22:36] down [screaming] [22:43] the ball. [22:45] >> Keep sacrificing. [22:50] Sing. [23:01] They hit the sanctuary. [23:12] >> We've blocked all the [music] roads. [23:14] Jerusalem is cut off. The army is ready [23:17] to move. [23:20] Father, the time has come to attack. [23:24] >> There's no reason to rush. [23:27] The Jews are slaughtering each other, [23:28] making our job easier. [23:31] We'll hold off on the attack. [23:37] Okay, Rabbi Stav, just picking up from [23:40] this scene. At this point, the Jews are [23:42] are basically doing the work for the [23:44] Romans and destroying the temple [23:45] themselves. And John believes that as [23:48] long as the sacrifices continue, God [23:50] will protect Jerusalem. But Barora [23:52] claims that the God of truth doesn't [23:54] care about the temple or the sacrifices. [23:57] He cares about justice. So explain this [23:59] distinction for us. [24:01] >> Well, first of all, I must express my [24:03] emotions. I mean, I don't see it for the [24:06] first time this film and I almost [24:09] started to cry when I saw the the last [24:12] scene. What we have seen actually [24:15] is maybe one of the most important [24:18] moments in Jewish history when two [24:22] approaches actually come to a clash. One [24:26] believes that what really God cares [24:29] about is his temple and he will always [24:35] protect the temple without any [24:37] distinction about our behavior. By the [24:40] way, the prophet Jeremiah who describes [24:42] this in one of his very very famous [24:46] about expression about the first temple, [24:48] those who yell, "Hey, the the house of [24:52] God, the house of God, the house of God, [24:55] nothing will happen to us because we are [24:57] secured because God will never allow his [25:01] enemies to destroy the temple versus the [25:05] other approach that says you don't [25:08] understand. You missed the whole issue. [25:10] The house of God is not the house of [25:13] God. God is present all over the world. [25:16] God wants to be with us when he feels [25:18] that we behave in a proper way. When we [25:21] move to our justice, when we try to [25:25] guide our lives based on our his rules, [25:27] rules of [25:29] uh social social justice, proper [25:32] behavior to the orphan, to the poor, to [25:36] the convert, etc., etc. And when we [25:38] don't behave ourselves, [25:40] there's no meaning to that building. [25:43] There's no meaning to the sacrifice. As [25:45] the prophet describes, all your [25:48] sacrifices and all your holidays, I'm [25:51] hating. When these rituals are not [25:54] coming along with moral behavior, [25:58] they're meaningless. And these are [26:00] actually two approaches that came to a [26:03] clash in towards the end of the second [26:07] temple. [26:08] >> Well, Kitty, as you were writing this, [26:10] did you did you relate with one camp [26:13] more than the other? Look, the slogan of [26:15] the movie is they were all right the way [26:19] to hell. Everybody. [snorts] So [26:22] basically every fraction every strand of [26:27] of the Jews at that time had their own [26:29] perspective and the problem was that [26:32] they were not willing to compromise. [26:34] They were insisting on on being correct [26:37] being on their on on defeating the other [26:40] concepts and eventually they all led [26:42] themselves to destruction. I mean the [26:44] only thing I can say [26:46] when as I was working so many years [26:48] about on this project that the elite the [26:52] rich [26:54] the establishment they were responsible [26:55] for the rest and they didn't behave [26:58] according to their responsibility and [27:01] they left them and they shoved them to [27:02] the corner and the result was that the [27:05] the [27:07] zealots fought back. So, I guess if I [27:10] would have been a young man 2,000 years [27:12] ago, I would probably go with the [27:13] Zealots. I'm not sure. I'm not saying [27:15] they did the right thing, but uh I would [27:17] intuitively identify with them more and [27:19] with their naivity, navy, and the desire [27:23] to get to the truth of the matter. Of [27:25] course, it brought destruction like they [27:27] brought the destruction like everybody [27:28] else. I don't think more than anybody [27:30] else. We'll be right back after this [27:32] short break. [27:34] The high holidays invite us to look back [27:36] on the year behind us and consider the [27:38] future we want to help build. For 54 [27:41] years, Jewish Communal Fund, JCF, has [27:44] helped individuals and families [27:46] transform their values into meaningful [27:48] philanthropy. As the nation's leading [27:50] Jewish donor advised fund, JCF [27:53] simplifies charitable giving while [27:55] providing the expertise, stewardship, [27:58] and personalized support that help [27:59] donors give with confidence. JCF is [28:03] about more than where you give. It's [28:05] about having a trusted partner who [28:06] understands what matters to you. Whether [28:09] you're supporting the Jewish community, [28:11] Israel, education, healthc care, the [28:13] arts, or any other cause close to your [28:15] heart, JCF helps turn generosity into [28:19] lasting impact. [music] Learn more at [28:21] jcfny.org [28:24] or follow the link in the episode [28:26] description. Jewish Communal Fund, [28:28] Strategic Giving, Powerful Impact. [28:33] And we're back with Getty Dar and Rabbi [28:35] David Stav. I want to set up the um the [28:37] next clip we're going to show here. The [28:39] two factions end up burning each other's [28:41] food supplies which had been stored in [28:44] anticipation of the Roman siege and a [28:47] devastating hunger falls on the city and [28:52] the the residents, if you will, they [28:55] begin to see the destruction that they [28:56] have brought upon themselves. And Rabbi [28:59] Ben Zakai understands that God has [29:02] decreed Jerusalem to be destroyed by the [29:04] Romans. And his mission becomes to save [29:08] the Torah. [29:09] >> Will Jerusalem be destroyed? [29:12] >> You concern yourself with the rocks and [29:14] trees while I worry about the oral law [29:18] so that it is not lost. [29:22] My son, [29:24] I need your help. My help with what? You [29:28] must act act for the sake of our holy [29:32] Torah to save it so that it is not God [29:37] forbid forgotten. [29:40] >> I don't understand. [29:42] What do I have to do? [29:44] >> You must help me leave the city. [29:46] >> What? Not that. [29:48] >> No. [29:49] >> Good nephew. [29:50] >> Bakura gave orders that no one may leave [29:52] the city except for the dead. [29:54] >> Speak to him. He listens to you. No, [29:59] Bara won't listen to me. [30:10] I'll do it. [30:13] But you must do exactly as I tell you. [30:18] Act like you are ill and people will [30:22] come to visit you [30:24] >> until the rumor starts to spread [30:26] Benzakai is dying. [30:30] Then I'll place dead vermin in your bed [30:36] and everyone will say [30:39] Rabbi Benzakai is dead. [30:42] His corpse is beginning to stink. [30:45] Your students will come to bear your [30:48] coffin beyond the walls. [30:51] >> May God protect you, Rabbi Benzakai. [30:54] >> Stab, brothers. [30:55] >> Open the gate. The great Rabbi Benzakai [30:58] has left us. [30:58] >> Not before we stab the coffin to confirm [31:01] the rabbi is really dead. [31:02] >> You want to stab the corpse? [31:05] >> Do you want it said that zealots killed [31:07] Rabbi Benzekai? He's dead. I saw it with [31:10] my own eyes. Don't you believe me? [31:13] >> Blast be the truth. [31:15] The greatest of sages has left this [31:17] cursed world. [31:19] >> Show respect for the Torah. Open the [31:21] gate. [31:23] >> I trust you, Ben. Open the gate. [31:26] >> OPEN THE GATE. [31:27] >> OPEN THE GATE. [31:27] >> OPEN THE GATE. [31:32] >> They're opening the gate. [31:34] >> Blessings upon you, Benik. [31:38] May God forgive you for all your sins. [31:41] [snorts] [31:43] >> Uncle, [31:44] you didn't answer me. [31:46] >> What? My son, [31:49] >> will Jerusalem be destroyed? It has been [31:52] decreed [31:54] Jerusalem will be destroyed. [32:20] So, Rabbi Stav, who is Ben Zakai first [32:25] and then how do you relate to him as a [32:28] rabbi? [32:28] >> Wow. Raan Benzakai [32:32] was one of the greatest uh rabbis in [32:35] that time in Jerusalem. [32:38] And as as we understand although the [32:40] historians are not fully agree with that [32:42] he didn't like the whole revolt he [32:46] believed that rebel against the Romans [32:49] should not be consisted of um burning [32:53] one other's food and others stores of [32:56] food and he didn't like the entire [32:59] concept of the rebel [33:03] and for us for me as a rabbi is a symbol [33:07] of two things. A is a symbol of a [33:11] courageous rabbinic behavior that [33:14] understands that if he has a position [33:17] against against the spirit that leads [33:20] the street and you cannot fight against [33:23] it, you should take your own decisions [33:25] and do whatever you believe you should [33:27] do. That's number one. But more [33:29] important than that, he is the one that [33:32] actually saved the Jewish oral Torah. [33:36] actually the Torah that we all observe [33:39] and Jews observe today and actually he [33:42] has the direct responsibility [33:44] for the Torah's survival because [33:46] actually what he was doing after after [33:50] the destruction of the temple he needed [33:53] to fit the behaviors the Jewish rituals [33:56] that were all connected to the temple to [34:00] adapt them to the new era of Jewish of [34:03] Jewish history and to see how you could [34:06] do things without the presence of the [34:08] temple for instance to pray instead of [34:12] bringing sacrifices to do things that [34:15] usually people we used to do only in the [34:18] temple and all of the sudden you say to [34:20] yourself wait a minute you cannot go to [34:22] Jerusalem that doesn't mean that you [34:24] don't have a synagogue you don't have a [34:27] shul and actually what he was doing to [34:29] the Jewish life is actually to shift the [34:33] the Torah and they observe servants of [34:37] the commands of Torah from the time [34:39] where there is a central place like [34:42] Jerusalem and the temple to see how you [34:45] prepare the Jewish people to go to the [34:48] diaspora and to make every Jewish [34:50] community, a center for Jewish life so [34:53] that it will last and will be able to [34:55] deliver the contents and the values to [34:58] their descendants into the next [34:59] generation. And actually I dare to say [35:01] that we are all here today existing [35:05] thanks to the behavior of Raban Zak. [35:08] >> Okay. So I want to I want to fast [35:10] forward to the final act of the film. [35:12] The Romans begin their attack on [35:14] Jerusalem. And only then do the factions [35:17] come to terms with the with the [35:20] destructive nature of what they've done [35:21] of their deeds. And then once they come [35:25] to terms with that they finally unite in [35:28] tragedy. I want to play that scene and [35:31] then Giddy I I want to I have a question [35:33] for you on the other side of that. So [35:34] let's play that clip. [35:41] >> My brother, the barriers have fallenless [35:52] forever and ever. We stand before you [35:58] >> ever [35:59] >> ready to sacrifice our bodies for him [36:03] forever and ever. [36:15] [music] [36:23] >> [music] [36:39] >> Set. [36:41] Take a [music] [36:42] fire. [36:49] >> [music] [37:00] >> All [37:06] night [37:12] [singing] must love. [music] [37:17] We no longer feared death. [37:21] We were like one man [37:24] with one heart [37:28] for your sake. [37:30] [screaming] [37:36] Okay. So, Giddy, when you look [37:39] at the year 70 AD and you look at Israel [37:43] today, and obviously this is a [37:45] particularly [37:46] raw time uh in Israel, or let's just say [37:49] tense uh time where where the intensity [37:53] of emotions are high heading into an [37:55] election. Uh what is the parallel, if [37:59] any, that genuinely frightens you? And [38:01] then where do those two stories actually [38:03] diverge? because I I hear from Israelis [38:05] both perspectives. I hear [38:08] uh comparisons, parallels to the focus, [38:11] the period that's the focus of your [38:13] film. And then I also hear there are [38:15] there are problems, things are [38:16] polarizing, but we don't need to be [38:18] hysterical. So where where are you in [38:21] all of this? [38:22] >> We need to be hysterical. I think now is [38:24] the time to now is the time to panic. I [38:26] say no for a while now. You know, we [38:31] have one advantage on the Jews 20,000 [38:33] years ago. We saw what happened to them. [38:37] So, we might learn from that because [38:39] they didn't. Many times people who see [38:41] the film ask me why didn't they stop at [38:44] all kind of crossroads and I say because [38:46] they didn't didn't believe it's going to [38:48] go so far so quick. And once you enter [38:52] this slippery slope, there's a moment [38:55] you can't go back and it can be very [38:57] very fast. So you cannot take it for [39:00] granted. It's nothing is going to [39:01] happen. I want to say something general [39:03] what where where it's does connect very [39:06] much. I think the people of Israel the [39:08] Jews [39:10] never had a a kingdom more than three [39:14] generations 75 years 80 at the most. [39:17] They kind of have this uh gene of [39:19] self-destruction self-exmination after [39:21] 80 years you know and we are actually [39:24] right now right there now in Israel at [39:26] this stage. And if you look at Israel, [39:28] what happened in Israel? You have, you [39:29] know, the forefathers of the country, [39:31] the pioneers. They had an amazing dream, [39:34] an amazing vision. They had, you know, [39:36] absolutely no no material, nothing. They [39:40] were against all odds, holocaust, what [39:43] you name it. You know, we all know this. [39:45] and they succeeded to to get this dream [39:48] into action [39:51] uh and to start what would become I [39:54] believe the biggest political miracle [39:56] definitely in modern time [39:59] and the second generation continue their [40:01] work and build an empire from Israel a [40:04] mini empire language [40:08] culture science technology army you name [40:11] it and the dream was fulfilled on [40:14] steroids much more than the pioneers [40:16] ever imagined. And when [snorts] a dream [40:18] is fulfilled, [40:20] we're in a very risky moment because [40:22] what is your dream now? [40:25] And like a person cannot really be [40:29] without a dream. Also, a nation cannot [40:31] be without a dream. And I think with an [40:34] Israeli nation, it's 10 times more [40:37] important. And our generation is living [40:42] in a fulfilled dream. And we also felt [40:45] before October 7th that we are done with [40:47] strategic enemies. We are so strong. I [40:50] mean they are enemies but they cannot [40:51] destroy us. [snorts] [40:53] And uh that's what we saw at least and [40:56] maybe it's time to start fighting each [40:59] other and uh and that's what we saw [41:01] until October 7th was became we got into [41:04] a very very risky moment. I don't care [41:06] what people say. told you it was very [41:09] risky. Actually, in November, there was [41:11] supposed to be something in the core [41:12] that like somebody could have one shot [41:15] you need for that. One shot, one [41:16] stabbing and that's it. And you're on a [41:18] slippery slope. And I know it sounds [41:21] crazy what I'm about to say, but in a [41:23] way, October 7th saved us from our worst [41:26] enemy, which is ourselves, our most [41:29] cunning enemy that knows exactly where [41:31] we're going to go. And it's very hard to [41:34] fight this enemy. There is a scene in [41:37] the movie when the general of of [41:40] Spassian, the big general, telling him, [41:43] "The Jews are in civil war. We should [41:45] attack them. They're weak." And he and [41:46] he mocked them. He said, "What are you [41:48] talking about? Once we near Jerusalem, [41:50] the walls of Jerusalem, they're going to [41:51] unite. We're waiting." And he waited for [41:53] two years. In these two years, he became [41:55] himself the uh the Caesar himself. And [41:59] he sent his son Titus after two years to [42:01] finish a job literally to collect the [42:04] bodies. Now Sinoir was not that smart. [42:08] I mean I looked at him as you know Arabs [42:10] are was a bedins at least it's not a [42:12] bedin but are known for their patience. [42:16] They've been waiting for 75 years. [42:18] Couldn't you wait two more years and let [42:19] us destroy each other? He had no [42:22] patience. He wasn't that smart. and and [42:23] the moment in October 7th, [42:26] you know, we're very used to to unite in [42:29] danger the Israelis. So, a a right-wing [42:34] messianic modern orthodox [42:37] ran into the fire with a liberalist from [42:39] a leftist liberalist from Tel Aviv, you [42:42] know, and they fought together [42:43] shoulder-to-shoulder [42:44] and uh and we had a chance, [42:48] you know, to not to go there. And now in [42:53] those elections and what uh it's a very [42:55] crucial moment. First of all, we have to [42:57] see how bleeding the elections are going [42:59] to be, how how terrible is it going to [43:00] go as we near them because the problem [43:03] is everybody has their opinion as we [43:05] said before and their perspective. But [43:07] are you because democracy [43:09] apparently is not as strong as we [43:11] thought. You know, 20 years ago when we [43:14] looked at democracy, it seemed like the [43:15] most uh uh stabilized steady uh solid [43:21] form of government. Right now, I think [43:23] we look around all the all western [43:24] democracy with we feel that they're like [43:26] dust in the wind. They're very fragile [43:28] because apparently if you want to [43:30] maintain democracy, everybody has to [43:32] want it and have to be willing to [43:34] compromise and to reach out to their [43:36] rifles. [43:38] And are we going to be able to do that? [43:40] because if not, we're in a serious [43:42] problem. [43:43] >> Rabbi Stav, you you and Giddy come from [43:45] very different slices of Israeli life, [43:48] from very different parts of Israeli [43:50] society. [43:51] What is your community within Israel, [43:54] call it your your own camp misunderstand [43:57] about the world within Israel that Giddy [44:01] comes from? [44:02] >> You know, when we established 30 years [44:04] ago, and I came to speak to my friends [44:07] about the [44:08] >> This is your organization. Yeah. [44:11] The need to establish that organization [44:13] after the assassination of prime [44:15] minister Israin. [44:17] >> People ask me what's the problem of the [44:19] secular people and I started to describe [44:22] what kind of a viad roa they have to go [44:24] through when they come to get married in [44:26] the ravenet. An experience that most [44:28] modern Orthodox people do not go through [44:30] because they have no problems. They have [44:32] their rabbis that perform for them the [44:34] weddings. It took them a long time to [44:36] understand that there is a pain in the [44:38] other side and I think what occurred to [44:41] the Israeli society to my part to my [44:44] tribe during the judicial reform that [44:48] they didn't believe that the other tribe [44:52] is really afraid of them is really [44:56] concerned of them I remember myself [44:59] speaking to one of the leaders of the [45:02] religious Zionist party saying to to [45:04] him, don't you understand that if you'll [45:08] continue this way, it was in the middle [45:10] of the judicial reform, you will cause [45:13] hundreds of thousands of secular [45:15] Israelis, Israelis to leave the country. [45:17] Is that what you want? Forget now if you [45:20] are right or wrong, but do you want them [45:23] to leave? Do you want to stay here alone [45:26] with the Kedi tribe and that's the way [45:28] you want to run the country? And he [45:31] didn't believe. He didn't believe. He [45:32] said it's not. It's just they pretend [45:34] themselves. They really know that there [45:36] is no threat on democracy. And I said to [45:39] them to him, no, they are really [45:42] concerned. Not because they're [45:43] concerned. I'm also concerned in the way [45:46] you try to defeat them. They get the [45:49] impression that you want to diminish [45:50] them. Could be they are wrong in their [45:53] interpret in their interpretation, but [45:55] that's what they are concerned about. [45:57] Try to talk to them. Try to satisfy them [46:01] at least. try to compromise. As Giddy [46:04] said, I think that what we missed is [46:08] that we had our parties, our leaders run [46:12] politics of defeating instead of [46:16] politics of trying to get understanding [46:20] and agreement among most of the society. [46:24] I don't expect 90% of the people to [46:27] agree upon anything. But I do expect [46:29] that the government whether it's from [46:31] the right or from the left should take [46:34] decisions accepted by at least 60 70% [46:39] the mainstream of the Israeli Zionist [46:41] society and my group my leadership did [46:45] not understand that unfortunately. [46:47] >> So do you think both sides have a [46:49] responsibility [46:51] in what you're describing for lowering [46:52] the temperature in these weeks leading [46:54] up to the election? [46:55] >> Yes. Don't misunderstand me. when [46:57] itakrain accepts the agreements of Oslo [47:02] based on a coincidental majority votes [47:05] from a few small parties as we said that [47:08] he bought one of them Mitsubishi and [47:12] took tremendous decisions of Oslo [47:15] agreements based on a majority of 61 [47:18] rabbin in in the early 90s moving [47:20] forward to the two-state solution the [47:22] recognition of the PLO shaking hands [47:24] with Yaser Arafat based the majority of [47:27] 61 [47:28] >> of one person. The majority of one [47:29] person. [47:30] >> So your your point is these were you [47:32] know historically radical radical moves [47:35] the prime minister was making meaning [47:37] radical not in terms of completely [47:40] unprecedented and and he was doing it [47:43] without you're saying without a real [47:45] mandate. [47:46] >> Exactly. What I'm saying is that the [47:47] responsibility of both groups is to [47:50] understand [47:52] as much of the consequences that we [47:54] could learn from previous history of [47:56] ourselves. Don't take decisions. Don't [47:59] take advantage of a coincidental [48:00] majority and said, "Well, I'm going to [48:02] defeat the other side. Don't try to [48:04] defeat. You don't have to agree with [48:06] everybody. Try to come to to create a [48:08] kind of a common denominator as loud as [48:11] broad as possible." For me the major [48:13] question deep deep down deep in in in [48:16] for all of us is a question of identity. [48:18] Who are we? Who are the Israelis now [48:20] after we build the place we build the [48:22] home we build now to and once we have to [48:25] decide that that's very important you [48:27] know and very hard also and and has a [48:29] can create a lot of problems but uh one [48:33] thing we can take from our culture is [48:35] that the Jewish culture is an [48:37] argumentative culture especially in the [48:39] Talmud. Now there are two kind of [48:40] arguments. One for in the sake of heaven [48:43] [snorts] meaning in the sense of [48:46] development and understanding of all [48:48] sides [48:49] peaceful argument and one of them when [48:52] you like Rabbi S said is when you want [48:55] to I want to def defeat you with my [48:57] argument and to shut down your argument [49:00] and that's never going to work. that's [49:02] going to bring violent and the question [49:04] is are will we be willing and able [49:08] to to get into this to to that situation [49:11] that we have a dialogue that is not in [49:14] order to defeat each other and because [49:16] as you can see in the in the election [49:18] we're surely it's not nobody's going to [49:20] win in a big number so it has to be and [49:22] the prime minister like what the left [49:24] felt for example is that BB for example [49:26] or the right-wing government is just for [49:28] the right wing and they are not the [49:30] government of everybody body. So you you [49:32] run the elections but then at the end of [49:33] the day you have to be the government of [49:35] everybody. [49:37] So uh we are in a risky situation right [49:40] now. I think we are in and but if we if [49:42] we cross this crossroad well we're on [49:45] the way to big development which will [49:47] take time but uh that's the way I see [49:49] it. Well then I guess my my closing [49:52] question is for both of you. Uh, but [49:55] I'll start with you, Giddy, just picking [49:56] up on what you said a moment ago for us [49:59] Jews in the diaspora because I feel like [50:01] everything you just said, you're [50:02] speaking to your fellow Israelis, okay? [50:03] But I'm not Israeli and most of our the [50:06] Call Me Back audience is not Israeli. [50:08] So, what do you want us to know and feel [50:12] as Israel [50:14] is in this current moment and headed [50:16] into this election? [50:18] >> First, I would hope you I hope you care [50:20] about us. [50:21] >> We definitely do. We spend a lot of time [50:23] talking about Israel and issues within [50:24] Israel and we have a big audience around [50:26] the world that is engaged which means [50:27] people care. [50:28] >> I agree. I agree most people care very [50:30] much. I mean the second thing is maybe [50:32] we can learn from you. Uh because I [50:35] think as I started that is that we [50:39] burned the bridge in Israel and we [50:41] disconnected from our heritage and from [50:44] our mythology or our narrative. I think [50:47] you're you guys are much more connected [50:49] because you don't have a state and [50:50] you're not a secular state. So for you [50:53] part of your identity is still holding [50:56] to this and I would love us to be a bit [50:59] more connected to this in order to [51:01] create some new things. So in a way [51:03] maybe we should learn this from you and [51:04] the the last thing is [51:07] what I believe that narratives are [51:09] everything and movies create narratives [51:12] for example that's what I'm that's my [51:13] job to create narratives in our [51:16] environment of narratives part of our [51:18] big narrative and I think we should and [51:21] when you and I when I look at diaspora [51:22] Jews and and the and the youngs who are [51:25] disappearing and losing it maybe you [51:28] guys should also or together create [51:31] those narratives [51:32] develop new narratives of Judaism of of [51:36] the people of Israel, which is actually [51:38] the term I prefer because we're all one [51:40] big people that will help people connect [51:42] because what we connect to is stories, [51:44] good stories. [51:45] >> Rabbi Stav, what's your response to [51:48] that? I agree to everything Giddi said, [51:51] but I would I would ask first of all, we [51:55] appreciate a lot the involvement of [51:57] world jury and especially the American [51:59] jury and we have seen it and I think the [52:02] Israeli societies discovered it this [52:04] after October 7th when we saw the [52:07] American Jews sending us helmets and [52:10] kamic vests and rounds and whatnot and [52:13] helping the hostages and the soldiers. [52:16] No, no question about the involvement [52:18] and the solidarity and connection. But I [52:21] think that we could expect from the [52:23] world jury more than that. I think that [52:26] they are responsible with us together to [52:30] the continuity of the state of Israel [52:32] and a part of this is strengthening the [52:35] narrative that if we will not be [52:38] together, we will not survive. And I [52:41] think that uh that requires for now [52:44] talking to American jury, but it applies [52:46] to everybody. I'm urging world jury to [52:51] strengthen the voices in Israel that [52:54] seek for dialogue that urge for [52:58] inclusiveness [52:59] and not to help and not to invite the [53:03] voices that are divisive. The voices [53:06] that put Israel in the edge from the [53:09] right or from the left. The Israeli [53:11] society needs to recover from its [53:14] injuries in the last couple of years. [53:16] And a part of our responsibility is to [53:20] help to strengthen the voices and and it [53:22] applies to all parties and to all groups [53:26] that are parties that are divisive and [53:28] that groups that are trying to unify to [53:31] unify the positive forces in the Israeli [53:33] society and I encourage the American [53:35] jury to help these forces. [53:37] >> Beautiful. Okay, Rabbi Stav uh is the [53:41] chief rabbi of the city of Sham, the [53:43] chairman of the Sohar organization, and [53:45] he serves as a rabbi for the Ezra Youth [53:48] Movement. Thank you for joining us, uh [53:51] Rabbi. And Giddy Dar is an Israeli film [53:54] director and co-screenwriter of Legend [53:56] of Destruction. Some of the clips we [53:59] preview today, uh an animated historical [54:01] drama. Thank you to you, Giddy. [54:03] >> I'm honored. Thank you very much. And [54:05] once again, I urge our audience to [54:08] please follow us on YouTube in order to [54:10] see the clips. If you were listening to [54:12] this on audio, great. But I'm just [54:14] telling you the the the the visual [54:18] experience, the is so incredibly [54:20] powerful that that it's almost worth [54:22] even if you've already listened to this [54:24] discussion to watching it even if it [54:26] means you consuming it again just so you [54:28] can see these clips. you'll get a quick [54:30] uh sense um for the for the the magic of [54:34] this film. And and and I guess most [54:36] importantly, I would urge our our [54:37] listeners and our viewers to follow the [54:39] links in our show notes and run to your [54:41] streamer. Do not walk. Run to your [54:43] streamer to see this extraordinary film. [54:45] It is um it is an extraordinary [54:48] uh feat. So, thank you Giddy for being [54:51] with us and for for this conversation [54:53] and for this incredible contribution [54:54] through this film. Thank you very very [54:56] much for for calling me back and I'm [55:00] very very honored. [55:01] >> Thank you and a good blessed year. [55:03] >> In the spirit of this film, let's just [55:06] maybe our maybe blessings rabbi for a [55:09] for a quiet new year. [55:11] >> Blessed sweet year, a year that will [55:16] please everybody. [55:18] >> Thank you. Thank you both. [55:28] If Call Me Back is where you come for [55:30] honest conversations about Israel and [55:32] the Jewish world, [music] please hit [55:34] subscribe and also share it with a [55:36] friend. And if you missed our last [55:38] episode, it's worth going back for. See [55:41] you next time.
