Transcript [00:00] In a time of unprecedented [00:02] anti-semitism, is there anything to be [00:05] done to fix a world that is drunk on [00:08] various forms of hatred for Jews? The [00:11] answer from the woman who calls herself [00:13] the anti-semitism Lorax doesn't involve [00:16] convincing non-Jews to be nice, but from [00:19] within. Today on Think Twice, we talk [00:22] with Dara Horn, the [music] author of [00:24] People Love Dead Jews, about her new [00:27] book about the final solution to the [00:29] Jewish question. [00:51] Hello and welcome to Think Twice. What [00:54] if all the clever ideas about dealing [00:56] with anti-semitism are no good? That's [00:59] not something that the organized Jewish [01:01] community and the industry that grew up [01:03] around spreading Holocaust education in [01:05] the last half century wants to hear [01:07] about. But if after decades of massive [01:10] investment in spreading knowledge about [01:12] the Holocaust, Jew hatred is rising to [01:14] unprecedented levels, then maybe it's [01:17] time to stop pretending that this can [01:19] work. The entire American education [01:22] system, pop culture, and the arts are [01:25] marinating in woke anti-semitism that [01:27] defines Jews as white oppressors, treats [01:29] blood liels about them as true, and [01:31] valorizes the effort to destroy the one [01:34] Jewish state on the planet. Even on the [01:36] right, the old tropes of Jew hatred are [01:38] bubbling back to the surface. And [01:41] everywhere there is a sense that the [01:43] post-holocaust vacation from history in [01:46] which anti-semitism became unfashionable [01:49] is over. One of the most influential [01:52] thinkers about this problem has just [01:54] written a new book that seeks to both [01:57] root out myths about that period while [01:59] pointing Jews towards the correct answer [02:02] to their problem that far from being [02:04] based in something clever and new is the [02:07] same answer Jews have relied upon to [02:09] survive for 2,000 years. And we're very [02:12] pleased to welcome her back to the [02:13] program today to discuss it. Daryl Horn [02:16] is an award-winning author and scholar [02:18] of Jewish and Yiddish literature. Her [02:20] non-fiction work has appeared in the New [02:22] York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the [02:24] Washington Post, The Atlantic Tablet, [02:26] and many other publications. She is the [02:28] founder and president of the Tell [02:30] Institute, which is devoted to educating [02:32] the broader American public about Jewish [02:34] civilization. and she is the author of [02:37] seven books, including five novels, the [02:40] 2021 essay collection, People Love Dead [02:42] Jews, Reports from a Haunted Present, [02:46] the Passover themed graphic novel, One [02:48] Little Goat, and the Just Published, The [02:52] Final Solution to the Jewish Question: A [02:54] Love Story for the Living. Daryl Horn, [02:57] welcome back to Think Twice. [02:59] >> Thank you for having me. We really [03:01] actually literally get to think twice [03:02] this time. [03:03] >> Yes, [laughter] indeed. twice within the [03:05] same second time have second time [03:08] participant. So, thanks for having me. [03:09] >> Yes. Well, actually third time consumer. [03:12] >> That's right. Yeah, I was gonna say that [03:13] was a few years ago though. People love [03:15] tattoos. Yes, that's right. [03:16] >> Anyway, Dara, thanks so much for taking [03:17] the time to join us today. Um, there is [03:20] a lot in your new book that I want to [03:22] discuss, but I'll start by asking you to [03:25] explain why you now call yourself the [03:28] anti-semitism Lorax and how did this [03:31] impact your decision to write this book? [03:34] Well, so I I didn't decide this. This is [03:36] my family started calling me this, [03:37] starting with one of my sisters um who [03:40] was noticing after um in the past uh [03:42] it's now been five years since my [03:44] previous book, People of Dead Jews, my [03:45] previous non-fiction book, I should say, [03:47] People of Dead Jews, came out, um I [03:50] started just hearing from all these [03:51] Jewish readers telling me their horror [03:53] stories involving their own experiences [03:55] with anti-semitism. [03:57] And one of my sisters who I was telling [03:59] this to said, you know, Derry, you've [04:00] become the anti-semitism Lorax. Like, [04:03] you know, I'm just, you know, shouting, [04:04] you know, I speak for the Jews. And, you [04:06] know, nothing changes. And [04:07] >> like, like the Dr. Seuss book. [04:09] >> Yes. Exactly. The Dr. Seuss character. [04:11] Um, I was really unprepared for this [04:14] flood of um, you know, horror stories [04:16] that were coming at me. And then, of [04:19] course, after uh, October 7th, it became [04:21] institutionalized. [04:23] Um, we uh, can talk about it. my role on [04:25] this uh ill- fated committee at Harvard [04:28] is one example. [04:28] >> We'll get to Harvard. [04:30] >> There's a lot of examples of that. But [04:32] people started coming to me, not just [04:33] like independent readers, but people [04:34] from many different sectors, obviously [04:37] higher education, government, um [04:40] journalism, um high-tech, um you know, [04:43] many many different fields, educators in [04:45] different levels just coming to me [04:47] saying, not only saying, you know, [04:48] telling me their horror stories, but [04:49] also asking me, "What's my solution to [04:52] this problem?" And my completely [04:54] tasteless response was, "Do you really [04:55] want me to give you the final solution [04:57] to the Jewish question, I wasn't [04:59] prepared to give that to you?" Um, now a [05:01] few years later, I actually feel [05:03] prepared. Um, I've now been thinking [05:06] very seriously about what we can [05:08] actually do to address this problem. [05:10] >> Thanks for tuning in to Think Twice. [05:12] Whether you're listening to us on any of [05:14] the podcast platforms or watching us [05:16] live on Facebook or X or on the JNS [05:20] YouTube channel, please like and or [05:22] subscribe [music] to JNS. Click on the [05:24] bell for notifications and give us good [05:26] reviews. Also, in addition to think [05:28] twice, there is a Jonathan Tobin Daily [05:30] podcast where I share more news and [05:32] analysis with you [music] about the most [05:34] significant issues we're facing today. [05:37] You can find the Daily Show under [05:38] Jonathan Tobin Daily on the [music] JNS [05:41] channel wherever you get your podcasts. [05:44] And now back to today's program. Yeah. [05:47] Well, you spend a lot of time in your [05:49] book discussing the various efforts to [05:52] educate Americans um about Jews, but [05:55] also specifically about the Holocaust. [05:57] >> Yes. [05:58] >> And the question is, why has Holocaust [06:01] education in the United States failed? [06:03] And I believe it it has failed. Why have [06:06] so many Jews been so convinced that [06:09] universalizing its lessons and [06:11] presenting effectively, even though [06:14] that's probably not what most of them [06:15] intended, as if Jewish life um began in [06:18] 1933 and ended in 1945, uh without [06:22] teaching about anti-semitism or Jewish [06:24] civilization? Why why any of this would [06:26] help the Jews, let alone make the world [06:28] a better place? [06:30] >> Well, so I want to be really clear to [06:32] your listeners. I'm not making an [06:34] argument against Holocaust education. [06:36] It's required in 20 something states. It [06:38] should be 50. I want to be really clear, [06:40] especially especially in this era of [06:42] Holocaust denial resurging online. Sure. [06:45] >> Um, this absolutely essential. So, I [06:47] just, you know, to be really clear to [06:48] your listeners, I'm really not making an [06:49] argument against Holocaust education. [06:51] >> Nor am I, but go ahead. [06:53] >> What I realized, you know, look, I spent [06:54] about a year researching this topic. Um, [06:57] the chapter in the book that's about [06:58] this originally was um something I was [06:59] doing for the Atlantic magazine. I [07:01] traveled around the country, not just [07:02] traveling to museums, but meeting with [07:04] teachers, meeting with educators, [07:05] meeting with people who write curricula, [07:07] meeting with um, you know, people, [07:08] legislators who pass mandates, um, you [07:11] know, attending teacher training [07:12] conferences. I mean, these were half of [07:14] it didn't even make it into this [07:15] chapter. [gasps and sighs] [07:16] It was so striking to me how [07:20] this was the only place in most students [07:23] education where they learned anything [07:24] about Jews at all. The only thing they [07:27] learned about Jews in public school, if [07:28] they learned anything at all, was that [07:29] Jews are people who are murdered in [07:31] Europe between 1933 and 1945. [07:34] And the murders are there to like teach [07:35] us some lesson about morality or [07:37] something like that. Um, as you say, [07:38] this universalizing idea. Um, and that [07:42] was it was so distinct that when I was I [07:45] remember being in the Dallas Holocaust [07:46] Museum for a teacher conference and one [07:48] of the dosent um I asked what do [07:50] students usually ask when they do the [07:52] tours because I was there in the summer [07:53] for a teacher conference. So, I didn't [07:54] get to meet students there. And he said, [07:56] "You know what? They'll sometimes ask, [07:58] "Are there still Jews alive today?" Cuz [08:01] if you, you know, went to this museum, [08:03] you probably wouldn't know, right? I [08:04] mean, that's not why you're at this [08:05] museum. [08:06] >> There are no Jews in Holocaust education [08:08] after 1945. Except for the ones who, you [08:11] know, are survivors who are talking [08:12] about what they experienced between 1933 [08:14] and 1945. [08:15] >> Yeah. Whether and now, as you, as you [08:18] discussed, now they're they're available [08:20] as holograms. [08:21] >> Yes. Yes. There was this absolute, you [08:24] know, fetishization of this. It was, you [08:26] know, so striking to me how this was a [08:29] story about, I mean, first of all, a [08:31] story about victimization, of course. [08:34] But it had been extracted from Jewish [08:35] history, it made pattern recognition [08:38] impossible. [08:40] Impossible. Um, so when students if [08:43] you're if the goal of of teaching about [08:44] this is to teach people about, you know, [08:47] to recognize anti-semitism, [08:51] it is eliminated that possibility [08:52] completely because now students know [08:55] that anti-semitism looks like killing [08:57] six million Jews. Um, they know [08:59] absolutely nothing about Jewish [09:00] civilization. They cannot answer the [09:02] question, well, why are the Jews being [09:03] targeted? They have no answer to that [09:06] because they don't even know who Jews [09:07] are, who are Jews. They cannot answer [09:08] that question. [09:10] um they don't understand what [09:12] anti-semitism even is, if it's any [09:14] different from any other kind of [09:16] bigotry. Um no information about that. [09:19] And really training people to recognize [09:21] something that is [09:24] it it when I say the elimination of [09:26] pattern recognition. I'm going to give [09:27] just one example and then we can you [09:29] know move on. There's a few directions [09:30] we could go from here. Um the [09:33] sociologist at Vanderbilt, um Schult [09:35] Kelner has written a lot about this. Um [09:37] he at one point I read a piece of his [09:39] where he makes the point that you know [09:41] we have invested so much and we being in [09:43] the Jewish community but also the [09:44] broader American public have invested a [09:46] lot in Holocaust education and that has [09:49] enabled students who have been the ones [09:51] who are successfully educated by about [09:54] the Holocaust which for sure not a given [09:57] but you know those [clears throat] who [09:58] are successfully educated about the [09:59] Holocaust [10:01] >> recognize [10:03] the Nazi form of anti-semitism [10:05] like when They see a swastika in the [10:07] boy's bathroom. They know that that has [10:09] something to do with killing Jews and [10:10] that it's bad. They recognize that [10:13] symbol. That's an example. You know, [10:15] they might recognize, you know, some [10:16] kind of like a Dstrom or cartoon. He [10:18] makes this point. He says, "If we had [10:20] spent five minutes, five minutes of all [10:22] of the time we spent, all the resources [10:24] we spent teaching students to recognize [10:29] anti-Zionism, [10:32] which begins, you know, the earliest [10:34] anti anti-ionist text is the protocols [10:37] of the elder of Zion from 1903, which [10:39] was a response to the world Zionist [10:40] congresses. If like if you had taught [10:43] students all of these slogans that were [10:45] used to destroy Jewish life in the [10:48] Soviet Union and in the Middle East, [10:50] Zionism is racism, Zionism is genocide, [10:52] Zionism is colonialism, Zionism is [10:54] apartheid, Zionism is terrorism, Zionism [10:57] is Nazism. If those were the slogans [11:00] that we had people have that people [11:02] would recognize if those were the [11:04] symbols people recognize where they see [11:06] that and they think, "Oh yeah, that's [11:08] the thing where you're being an absolute [11:10] bigot and you're only using this to [11:12] drive Jews out of your society." Maybe [11:14] people wouldn't have fallen for it now. [11:16] Maybe. Just a thought. [11:18] >> Yeah. [11:18] >> Just I mean that is something [11:20] anti-ionism [11:21] destroyed [11:23] all of the Jewish communities of of [11:26] Middle East and North Africa. It [11:28] destroyed Jewish life in the Soviet [11:29] Union. I mean, this is millions of Jews [11:31] whose lives were [11:33] >> really communities were annihilated. [11:35] Annihilated by this, not by burning them [11:37] to death, but by shutting down all [11:39] Jewish institutions, forcing them out of [11:41] their jobs, appropriating all their [11:43] assets, and frankly, in a lot of cases, [11:44] the only reason they weren't murdered is [11:46] because they had somewhere to go. [11:50] >> Yeah. But of course um there is a debate [11:54] within the Jewish community about [11:55] whether anti-ionism is even part of [11:57] this. That's, you know, the whole, you [12:00] know, you don't really get into, you [12:01] know, the debate about the IH definition [12:04] of anti-semitism as opposed to the nexus [12:06] definition of anti-semitism that seems [12:08] to seems to be primarily motivated, at [12:11] least in my opinion, as a way to give [12:14] uh, you know, a way to make anti-Zionism [12:16] kosher and to avoid, you know, those who [12:20] who engage in it to, you know, to not be [12:22] called anti-semites. But you know even [12:26] even the Jews are not united on that. [12:30] >> I go very deep in this book. I have a [12:31] chapter called generation anti-z [12:36] going back for 120 125 years. [12:39] >> Yeah it's quite detailed. [12:41] >> Um and I do it layer by layer peeling [12:44] back um different layers. is I do a [12:45] rever reverse chronological order um to [12:48] take you from this ideology that starts [12:50] at the protocols of elders of Zion and [12:53] ends with the ceremony to hand back the [12:55] bodies of the Bibbus brothers um at all [12:58] the steps in between um the many steps [13:01] in between. Um you know the way I I [13:04] think we waste a lot of time having this [13:08] internal debate about semantics. [13:11] The way that I and this goes into a [13:13] deeper point that I'm making in the book [13:16] is that [13:18] the way I define when I talked about the [13:20] lack of pattern recognition that you [13:22] have from anti from what that holocaust [13:24] eliminates pattern recognition to me [13:27] it's not oh there's all these different [13:28] flavors and of of you know there's the [13:31] right-wing and the left wing and oh [13:33] there's you know this is a morphing [13:34] mutating virus. I don't use any of that [13:36] language in this book. I also don't use [13:39] um and it in my curriculum which um I [13:41] now am teaching this material through uh [13:43] my nonprofit the Tel Institute in public [13:45] schools and also at the Jewish [13:46] community. We do not talk about [13:49] anti-semitism as a um a bigotry or bias. [13:52] We don't mess around with definitions [13:54] honestly. We put that aside. I [13:56] understand the whole debates about that. [13:58] Doesn't interest me at all. Doesn't [14:00] interest me at all. The way we teach [14:02] about it is much more simple. [14:04] Anti-semitism is a lie that people use [14:06] to gain or maintain power. And the lie [14:09] is always exactly the same. Jews are [14:12] destroying what you value the most. Jews [14:15] are destroying what you value the most. [14:18] And the only thing that changes in [14:19] different eras, different settings, [14:21] different social circles, even in the [14:22] same place is what you value the most. [14:26] And it is so simple. When we teach this [14:28] in my curriculum, we do this for [14:30] 13-year-olds. We have like a [14:31] plug-and-play. It's like a chart. Who is [14:33] the liar? Because that's also very [14:35] important when you talk about [14:36] anti-semitism as a shape-shifting virus. [14:38] That makes it sound like force majour, [14:40] right? Like this is some natural [14:42] process. [14:44] >> Well, that no one's benefiting from, [14:45] right? I mean, the reality anti-semitism [14:47] about any Jewish anti-Jewish ideology, [14:49] someone is benefiting. It is a lie. [14:52] >> It's not a hate, it's a lie. [14:54] >> Someone is benefiting from that lie. And [14:57] so, we have the kids literally fill in [14:58] the chart. Who is the liar in this [14:59] scenario? What is the value of the [15:02] society that they're targeting and how [15:04] are they portraying Jews as violating [15:06] this value? And then the last piece of [15:08] the chart for the older students, we [15:09] talk about new media. What is the new [15:11] media in this era that allows this to [15:13] spread? Because new media in every era [15:15] is the wild west because there is no [15:17] sense of who's credible and who isn't. [15:19] What determines credibility is [15:21] consensus, otherwise known as [15:23] popularity. [15:24] >> So to me, it's like I'm just not [15:26] interested in and I get why people care. [15:28] We could have a whole and I'm sure we've [15:29] had many conversations on this podcast [15:31] about this. [15:32] >> To me, this is uninteresting. To me, [15:34] what is most important is recognizing [15:36] that this is the ideology who's and the [15:38] final part of this, the ideology, the [15:40] the anti-semitic lie is Jews are [15:43] destroying what you value the most. And [15:46] the final piece of that is therefore [15:47] Jews need to be eliminated from your [15:49] society. And eliminated can mean a lot [15:52] of things. It can be it can mean [15:53] everyone gets murdered. It can mean Jews [15:55] are pushed out of your country. It could [15:57] mean Jews are pushed out of public life. [15:59] It means that they have to go into [16:00] hiding. It means that they will it's it [16:03] could just mean that they never tell [16:04] their Uber driver that they're Jewish. [16:06] Um, you know, they don't mention to [16:07] their Uber driver in conversation that [16:09] they're coming back from a trip to [16:10] Israel in this airport trip. Right. I [16:12] mean, that's it's any of the any and all [16:14] of those things. Eliminating Jews from [16:16] public life, whatever that looks like in [16:18] your society. [16:18] >> Erasing Jews. Yeah. [16:19] >> Erasing Jews from public life. Yes. [16:22] >> Right. Now, one of the interesting [16:23] aspects of your book was your research [16:26] about how Jews are trying to introduce [16:28] non-Jews to Jewish life, which is, you [16:30] know, a lot of what the your tell [16:32] institute does. Now, yes. [16:33] >> The story, you know, that you tell about [16:36] this, I mean, there are discouraging [16:38] elements and there are encouraging [16:40] elements, I guess, at the same time. [16:43] >> Yes. [16:43] >> But what conclusions did you draw from [16:46] that specifically? [16:48] >> So, yes. So for um those who haven't [16:50] read the book, I have chapters in the [16:51] book where I um I I research how how [16:53] this has been done in the past, how this [16:55] is being done um how people uh are [16:58] trying to introduce actual Jewish life [17:00] to current students. So as I said, most [17:03] students are never introduced to [17:04] anything about Jewish life other than [17:05] the Holocaust, if even that. Um I have [17:08] met some very brave people who are [17:10] bucking the trend and have um been [17:13] working with schools to introduce Jewish [17:15] life more directly. Um, a lot of these [17:17] people now are on my team. They work, [17:19] they now work with me. I mean, they're [17:21] still work in their own organizations, [17:22] but they also, you know, we have, um, we [17:24] we've worked together on creating this [17:26] curriculum that I've worked on for the [17:27] past year and a half. Um, [17:30] there what I noticed there was that [17:32] there was there were these restrictions [17:34] on what people were able to talk about. [17:36] For example, pigeon holing Judaism into [17:39] being a religion. [17:41] >> Yeah. which makes it which I mean and I [17:43] have a whole chapter in the book about [17:44] how that came to be in the United States [17:46] in particular. Um you know claiming that [17:48] being that Jews are a religion. Jews are [17:51] not a religion. Jews have a religion but [17:54] there are millions of Jews who are [17:55] secular. Personally I've never met a [17:57] secular Mormon because Mormonism is a [17:59] religion. [18:01] Right. There's actually Jews are not a [18:03] religion. That doesn't make sense for [18:04] them. You know like when you know [18:06] >> some are more from than others but yeah. [18:08] >> Yeah. Okay. But like, but no matter how [18:10] firm you are, [18:10] >> it is an important [18:11] >> no matter how firm you are, when your [18:13] when your son's dorm room is vandalized [18:15] with posters that say free Palestine, [18:18] >> that's not a religious conflict. That's [18:20] not someone attacking your son for his [18:22] religion. [18:25] >> Right. [18:26] >> Right. It's not the way actually when it [18:28] happened to my son, we were uh the way [18:31] we were able to get the university to [18:32] and this was actually a teen program. It [18:34] wasn't even a college program, but it [18:35] was run by a university. The way that we [18:38] were finally able to get them to [18:39] acknowledge this was to point to the [18:41] state statute where it said um protected [18:44] class of n of um shared ancestry [18:47] shared ancestry national origin if [18:49] you're Israeli shar and shared ancestry. [18:51] It even says in the statute real or [18:53] perceived shared anc shared ancestry. [18:55] [snorts] Um yeah. So I mean there's like [18:58] these categories already exist. Um in [19:00] terms of like so what I saw was this [19:02] limitation on [19:04] um people having to teach about it as a [19:06] religion. So which you know kind of [19:08] elides a lot of what we're experiencing [19:10] that is the the framing as a religion [19:12] has made American Jews often incapable [19:15] of even understanding what's happening [19:16] to today which is an attack on Jewish [19:18] peoplehood. if you don't know what [19:20] Jewish peoplehood is, it's, you know, [19:22] you don't even understand what's [19:24] happening. Um, another piece of it was [19:26] that I noticed that there was this [19:27] emphasis where they felt like they had [19:29] to teach the positive story of Jewish [19:30] life, right, as opposed to like the [19:32] negative story of the Holocaust, right? [19:34] And there was [19:35] >> which is a normal Yeah. a normal [19:37] reaction to the impact of, you know, so [19:40] much negative Holocaust. [19:41] >> Correct. Correct. And so the idea was [19:43] like, oh, let's try to keep it [19:44] >> try to keep it happy or something or try [19:47] to, you know, show the joy and not the [19:48] oi. It was like this kind of language [19:49] and um I just [19:51] >> like you know synagogue Hebrew schools. [19:53] Yeah. [19:54] >> This kind of thing. Yes. And and [19:55] synagogue Hebrew school is a good [19:56] example. It's like you know we're about [19:57] the religion, right? Let's talk about [19:58] the holidays. But here's what I noticed [20:00] though. It's like yeah let's keep it [20:02] light and talk about the holidays. Like [20:04] oh we don't want to talk about you know [20:05] want to be depressing and talk about how [20:07] people have discriminated or persecuted [20:09] Jews. Oh, you know we don't want to be [20:11] quote controversial and talk about [20:13] Israel or Jewish independence. So let's [20:16] keep it upbeat and talk about Kaneka. [20:18] And I'm like, "What do you think [20:18] Hanukkah is about?" [laughter] [20:21] >> Yeah. [20:22] >> I'm like, "Hanukica, you mean the [20:23] anti-colonial revolt against European [20:26] colonizers who t [20:27] >> Yeah. Unfortunately for Americans for [20:29] persecuting Jews and criminalizing [20:30] Jewish practice in the Jews indigenous [20:32] homeland, is that the Kakob we're [20:34] talking about? Just making sure we're [20:34] talking about the same holiday, [20:36] >> right? Unfortunately for for many [20:38] American Jews, it's just the blue [20:39] tinsled principle principally. [20:41] >> Well, but this is the issue, right? I [20:42] mean, this is what's so interesting [20:44] about this [20:45] >> real. What I when I sort of got into [20:47] that moment of like, wait a minute, what [20:48] do you think Hanukkah is about? [20:50] >> That's when I realized that I had [20:52] actually made a mistake. I had [20:54] originally thought like, oh, there's [20:55] this, you know, what I the idea I [20:56] explored in People Love Dead Jews was [20:58] this like obsession with Jewish [20:59] suffering and, you know, and Jewish [21:02] powerlessness and that over here there's [21:04] this positive story of Jewish life and [21:06] civilization. No, this was a mistake. [21:08] They're one story. They are one story [21:11] and that story happens to be one of the [21:13] most inspiring stories in the world and [21:16] this is the story that I'm telling at [21:17] the tell institute. The story is about [21:22] this this tiny countercultural minority [21:26] that for thousands of years has refused [21:28] to bow to tyrants. [21:31] There is an intrinsic connection between [21:34] the content of Jewish civilization [21:37] and the persistence of anti-semitism for [21:39] thousands of years. Because of course, [21:42] when you're an anti-rannical movement, [21:44] it pisses off tyrants, [21:46] right? When you're in a non-conformist [21:48] movement, it pisses off these dominant [21:50] societies that need everyone to conform. [21:52] Even the fact that people don't [21:54] understand who Jews are is a reflection [21:56] of this the success of these dominant [21:58] empires. Because you know there's an [22:01] answer to who Jews are. Jews are a [22:03] joinable tribal group with a shared [22:05] history, homeland and culture. That was [22:07] a sentence in English. In Hebrew it's [22:09] one word. Jews are amrael. The reason [22:12] this category is so unfamiliar to most [22:14] modern people is most of the groups like [22:16] this were destroyed by empires, [22:19] right? I mean Christian empires took [22:21] over Europe and the Americas and beyond. [22:23] And Islamic empires took over Middle [22:25] East, North Africa, Central Asia and [22:27] beyond. Like what happened to all those [22:28] cultures that lived in those places? [22:30] Like nobody's still worshiping the Norse [22:32] gods, [22:34] right? I mean, you know, you might have [22:35] a movie about Thor, okay? But like [22:37] there's nobody who's like teaching their [22:38] kids about worshiping Thor, [22:41] >> right? [22:41] >> We're teaching our kids about worshiping [22:43] Hashem [22:45] >> using the same texts. There's evolution, [22:48] but this is the same continuous [22:49] indigenous culture from thousands of [22:51] years ago. This is so unusual because [22:54] there's so few people who have succeeded [22:55] at this. [22:57] When we tell this story, framing this [23:00] around this [23:03] survival and resilience of the Jewish [23:05] people, how that survival and resilience [23:08] is related to these groundbreaking ideas [23:10] of Jewish civilization, which I can go [23:11] into in more depth. Um, but you sort of, [23:14] you know, are already getting the a [23:15] sense of what they are. How those ideas [23:18] have shaped world history. I mean, you [23:20] don't have Christianity, Islam without [23:22] Judaism. You don't have the American [23:23] founders without the Hebrew Bible. So, [23:26] like, you know, when you realize the [23:27] impact of those ideas on a broader [23:29] society, and when you realize the [23:31] choices that Jewish communities made, [23:34] including modern Zionism, to maintain [23:37] this civilization until the present, I [23:40] have to tell you, it wows people. [23:44] It wows people. Like, I mean, we teach [23:46] this in public schools. The most common [23:48] comment we get from the students from [23:50] the public schools is like these people [23:52] have been around for thousands of years. [23:54] Seriously, [clears throat] [23:56] >> like whoa, right? Like, and then they're [23:58] like, this is a really interesting. [24:01] They're like, they kept this language [24:02] around for 3,000 years. How' they do [24:04] that? How' they do that? I'm like, let [24:06] me show you. Right? Like, literally, let [24:09] me show you. Right? People are [24:10] fascinated by this. And I have to say [24:12] that, you know, I originally conceived [24:14] of this for the public, for the general [24:15] public. I now have had a lot of demand [24:18] for this from within the Jewish [24:19] community and responding to demand we [24:23] now have a program that's um we've [24:25] mostly targeted at um non-Orthodox [24:28] synagogues for benet mitzvah students um [24:31] because basically Jewish leaders in [24:33] these communities were coming to us and [24:34] saying our kids don't know this story [24:36] either. [24:37] >> No, clearly not. [24:38] >> Yeah. But it is a really inspiring story [24:40] and I mean and it's not a story about [24:41] victimhood. It's it's and it's not just [24:43] a story about survival. It's a much [24:46] bigger story of a civilization that made [24:50] a decision about how it was going to [24:53] respond to empires and is still making [24:55] that decision today. [24:56] >> Yeah. Well, we'll get back to that um [24:59] when we talk about the final solution to [25:02] the Jewish problem um a little later, [25:04] but I want to sort of take some uh [25:07] sidebars now and talk about some some [25:09] things in your book and that really [25:12] interested me. Um, why is the story of [25:16] this person Johan von leers someone that [25:19] even many people who probably think they [25:22] know a lot about the Holocaust don't [25:23] know about? Why is that so important to [25:26] understanding the fashionable belief in [25:28] anti-ionism and the rise of [25:30] anti-semitism today? [25:31] >> Yeah, this is a story that I tell [25:33] >> Johan Le's on one foot. [25:35] >> Yeah. On one foot. This he was a Nazi [25:37] ideologue. Joined the Nazi party in 1929 [25:40] way before it was cool. was a linguist [25:42] fascinated by empires, fluent in all the [25:45] empire languages including Arabic, [25:48] >> corresponded in the 1920s with a person [25:51] I know your listeners know about, Hajim [25:53] al- Husseini the Muy of Jerusalem who [25:55] had you know instigated massacres of [25:56] Jews in um in Hebron and Jerusalem and [26:00] Jaffa sent him fan mail. um you know [26:03] they got to know each other when Hajabin [26:05] al-Husi spent the uh war years in Berlin [26:08] uh salaried by the Reich to produce uh [26:11] Nazi propaganda for the Arab world in [26:13] and on Arabic radio. [26:15] Von Lair wrote all the curricula for [26:17] schools of the Third Reich. He was um [26:20] very prolific. He published like 27 [26:22] books about Nazi ideology. Here's what's [26:24] interesting about him. What happens to [26:26] him after the war? After the war, he [26:28] escapes to Argentina, starts working for [26:31] Juan Peron, loves dictators, fluent in [26:33] Spanish. When Juan Peron gets deposed, [26:35] he starts working for the Egyptian [26:37] embassy in Buenos. He's then recruited [26:41] in 1950s by Gaml Abdul Nasser, the [26:44] dictator of Egypt and the head of the [26:46] Arab League. He then comes to Cairo to [26:50] create all of the anti-Zionist [26:52] propaganda for the entire Arab League. [26:56] And he does that for the rest of his [26:58] life. And a lot of his material even [27:00] winds up getting translated into Russian [27:02] and being spread by the Soviet [27:04] anti-ionist campaigns. And my favorite [27:06] kod to this story is that in Cairo in [27:08] the 1950s, he reunites with his hero [27:11] Hajamin Al Husini who converts him to [27:14] Islam. [27:16] So I mean, you know, it's like, oh, [27:17] horseshoe theory, you know, it's not [27:18] horseshoe theory. It's one guy when it's [27:20] one guy. But I want to also make clear [27:22] to your listeners. This is not just one [27:24] guy. Like there were many Nazis who were [27:27] ended up employed in the Arab League [27:29] after the war. Many many Nazis who wound [27:31] up in working for Nasser's regime for [27:34] the Arab League. Um there were like [27:36] another person I could have written a [27:37] whole chapter about and I didn't was um [27:39] uh there's a guy I'm blanking on his [27:42] name now. Renee Janu I think he was a a [27:44] Swiss Nazi banker. He ended up funding [27:47] the pe uh the popular front for the [27:49] liberation of Palestine for the 1960s [27:51] and 70s when it was hijacking planes. [27:53] And I mean there's like there's a lot of [27:55] connections between the Nazi ex former [27:58] Nazis who were not very former and um [28:00] and the Middle East, [28:03] >> right? Well, that's an important [28:04] >> and it's a symbiosis, right? It isn't [28:06] just like, oh, Nazi Nazism was it's not [28:08] just anti-Jewish Nazi ideology was [28:10] imported into the Middle East. It's both [28:12] because Hajim al- Husini was imported to [28:15] Europe. He had already been inciting the [28:17] slaughter of Jews in the Middle East [28:18] well before the Nazi regime. So it's [28:20] like there's a symbiosis between these [28:21] anti-Jewish [28:22] >> ideologies. [28:24] That's why it's important uh to [28:26] understand the connections there and I [28:28] think that was really important in your [28:29] book. Now [28:30] >> another key element of this book is [28:34] about the story that American Jews have [28:37] told about themselves about post-war [28:40] America and a period of tremendous [28:43] Jewish acceptance. Why is it mostly [28:46] wrong? And what does a novel and [28:48] Oscar-winning film tell us about why it [28:51] was wrong? [28:52] >> So, you know, this is now a sort of an [28:54] ideology about not ideology, like a [28:56] talking point about, oh, the golden age [28:58] of American Jews is ending. This was [28:59] from a uh cover story for the Atlantic a [29:02] couple years ago by the journalist [29:03] Frank. It's actually a very good [29:04] article. I I not um imputing his [29:07] reporting at all except on one point. In [29:10] that article, he claims that this golden [29:11] age of American Jewish acceptance [29:14] happened because non-Jews felt guilty [29:17] about the Holocaust and then stopped [29:19] hating Jews. He literally says this. He [29:21] says, you know, anti-semitism after the [29:23] Holocaust receded [29:24] >> like the tide, you know, like it receded [29:26] just magically. He literally uses this [29:28] passive voice. [29:29] >> This is I could tell you this is not [29:31] true. There were um actual sociological [29:34] surveys of of Americans in the late [29:37] 1940s that demonstrated that the [29:40] Holocaust had zero impact on Americans [29:42] ideas about Jews. If anything, it [29:45] enhanced anti-semitism because people [29:46] are like, "Wow, I don't know what these [29:48] guys are doing that they people hate [29:49] them so much. Where there's smoke, [29:51] there's fire." Um what changed the [29:53] situation for American Jews was American [29:55] Jewish activism, [29:56] >> right? [29:57] >> Robust American Jewish activism. Some of [29:59] that took the form of things like [30:00] welfare policy work um you know [30:03] anti-discrimination um efforts. Some of [30:06] it um took the form of cultural activism [30:09] in the form of there's like a wave of [30:11] anti-anti-semitism books and films. The [30:13] most famous of which is a film from 1947 [30:16] called Gentleman's Agreement. Um this is [30:18] a Gregory Pek. He's a you know [30:20] non-Jewish journalist who decides to [30:22] pose as a Jew to see if it changes how [30:25] people treat him. Spoiler, it changes [30:26] how people treat him. But the thing [30:28] about this film is that um and this has [30:31] been studied by um my friend Rachel [30:33] Gordon who's uh she's a professor of [30:35] history at University of uh University [30:37] of Florida. Um well she's Jewish studies [30:39] but her you know she's a historian and [30:41] she points out that there's a joke about [30:44] this film that was um that [30:47] >> retelling. Yeah. [30:48] >> Yes. There's a joke about this film that [30:50] when the uh screenwriter Moss Hart was [30:52] visiting the set, one of the set of the [30:54] film, one of the stage hands came up to [30:56] him and said, you know, he really loves [30:57] this film. He feels like it has such a [30:59] wonderful moral. And Moss Hart is [31:01] pleased and says, "What do you think the [31:03] moral is?" And the stage hand says, "I [31:05] learned from this film that you should [31:07] never be mean to a Jew because he might [31:10] turn out to be a gentile." [31:12] And what's funny about that joke to me [31:15] um and to Rachel Gordon is that [31:17] >> that actually is the message of this [31:18] film. [31:19] >> Yeah. [31:20] >> You shouldn't hate Jews because they're [31:21] just like everyone else. [31:23] >> Like they're dapper like Gregory Peek, [31:26] right? And it's been noticed that you [31:27] know like there's nothing in this film [31:29] that teaches you anything about Jewish [31:30] religion, Jewish practice, Jewish [31:32] culture. There's nobody in this movie [31:33] who's speaking Yiddish. There's nobody [31:35] in this movie who's there's actually a [31:36] moment in the film where there's a very [31:38] disparaging comment about Zionism. um [31:41] which comes from the character who's a [31:42] standin for Einstein which is really [31:44] crazy because Einstein himself was a [31:46] very passionate scientist um you know [31:48] there's that kind of distortions and [31:50] it's truly just but but her point that [31:52] she and she also points out that um in [31:55] in Rachel Gordon's work she also points [31:57] out that there was actually a lot of [31:58] effort also among American rabbis at the [32:00] time mid-century mid- 20th century to [32:02] really um emphasize this idea of [32:04] American Jewish life to emphasize Jews [32:06] as a religion because that was sort of a [32:09] category that made sense in that [32:10] setting. You know, there's like [32:12] religious revival in America in the [32:13] 1950s. We put the words under God in the [32:16] um pledge of allegiance. We're fighting [32:18] the godless Soviets. It was sort of like [32:19] a good call at the time. The problem [32:22] with this, and I described this in the [32:23] book as the gentleman's agreement that [32:24] American Jews are still living in, which [32:27] is this idea that [32:30] we have this message we we have been [32:32] sending to the American public, which is [32:33] that you shouldn't hate Jews because [32:34] they're just like everyone else. They're [32:36] just like you and me. They're just like [32:38] everyone else. The problem with that [32:40] message is that Jews spent 3,000 years [32:42] not being like everyone else. [32:44] And if that's the claim that you're [32:46] making, then [32:48] you're basically saying that if Jews are [32:50] not like everyone else, it's totally [32:52] fine to hate them. I mean, this becomes [32:55] like this acid test of a pluralistic [32:56] society. Um, you know, it's totally fine [33:00] to like, you know, stab in the street [33:02] because, you know, [33:03] >> they're not like everyone else. They [33:04] have weird hairstyles, [33:06] >> right? Israel is not like the other [33:08] countries in the Middle East. So Leo [33:09] there too. [33:10] >> Yeah, it's not a it's not a an [33:12] autocratic dictatorship that slaughters [33:15] dissident. So yeah, it's definitely not [33:16] like the other countries in the Middle [33:18] East. [33:19] >> Um that you know, especially these [33:20] Islamist regimes whose goal is to wipe [33:23] out all minorities in the Middle East. [33:24] Exactly. You're starting to get the [33:26] pattern here, right? This is this is the [33:28] this is the assimilation to empires [33:30] that's demanded of us and has always [33:32] been demanded of us. Um and what I [33:34] realized was that there was part of this [33:36] sort of you know this price of the [33:38] ticket as James Baldwin put it um in our [33:42] acceptance into American society which [33:45] you know had this asterisk next to it [33:47] which is that we're not actually and [33:49] what I think is so interesting about it [33:50] too and I talk about this that American [33:52] Jewish advocacy groups um at the time [33:56] part of what they were trying to push [33:58] for was anti-discrimination laws. So [34:00] making it illegal. For example, a lot of [34:02] Jews were changing their names so that [34:04] they could get jobs because a lot of [34:05] employers would dismiss a job [34:07] application with a Jewish sounding name. [34:08] >> Something you actually wrote about in [34:10] >> Yes, I wrote about in the previous book. [34:12] Yes. And um credit to the history and [34:14] Kirsten for Megwick for she has a great [34:15] book about this called a Rosenberg by [34:17] any other name. And she points out that [34:19] this was a lot of advocacy by American [34:21] Jewish groups to eliminate this um job [34:23] discrimination. And the way they tried [34:25] to do that was by, you know, uh, [34:27] employers caught up with this and they [34:28] would put questions on the job [34:29] application saying, "What's your [34:30] father's name? What's your grandfather's [34:32] name? Did anyone in your family ever [34:34] legally changed their name? Explain [34:35] fully. What's your pastor's name?" And [34:37] the approach of American Jewish [34:38] advocates at the time was to make those [34:40] questions illegal. And we are all [34:43] beneficiaries of this legal framework [34:45] that these people set up. So I'm not [34:46] like saying like that shouldn't have [34:47] been those laws shouldn't have been [34:49] passed, right? I mean, the same kind of [34:50] laws that you know you can't ask [34:51] somebody if they're married at a job [34:53] interview. those sorts of laws. [gasps] [34:54] What I think is interesting though was [34:56] that think about what how the American [34:59] Jewish community at that time defined [35:00] victory. [35:02] Victory was the ability to pass, [35:05] right? It's almost like um in the uh [35:08] it's almost like the legislation from [35:09] about 20 years ago, don't ask, don't [35:11] tell, for gay service members in the [35:13] American military, right? It was like [35:15] don't ask, don't tell. Like you can't [35:17] don't tell anyone you're gay, but we're [35:18] also not going to ask. and gay rights [35:20] advocates realize that this law is [35:23] itself homophobic because it is [35:25] accommodating homophobia. It's [35:28] accommodating homophobia. [35:30] So there they it does nothing to disrupt [35:32] this idea that you were unacceptable. [35:34] And that's sort of I think where we have [35:36] been stuck as a Jewish community for [35:38] many many decades without really even [35:40] realizing it. [35:41] >> Yeah. Um that's a very important point [35:44] and I think you know the gentleman's [35:46] agreement is a is a great inflection [35:48] point uh and a way to explain [35:51] >> sort of what's wrong here. [35:53] >> Now I I want to drill down a little bit [35:55] on on this. Um, I think you're entire [35:58] obviously right that, you know, the [36:00] notion that anti-semitism, you know, [36:03] receded like the tide was obviously [36:05] false and that anti-semitism may have [36:09] always been there even during the [36:11] supposedly golden age of post-war [36:13] America for Jews, but isn't America [36:17] still exceptional? America is different [36:19] than the rest of the world? And hasn't [36:22] that been the case since the founding of [36:23] the republic? And isn't a big part of [36:26] our problem now that the sort of woke [36:28] project, if I can, you know, sort of sum [36:30] it up in that phrase, is aimed at [36:32] destroying that exceptionalism that [36:34] makes the current problem of [36:35] anti-semitism so so dangerous for Jews. [36:39] >> I mean, yes, I think that there's I [36:41] think it's sort of interesting that [36:42] there's there's a very deep belief in [36:44] the American Jewish community, which you [36:47] yourself just expressed about American [36:49] accept America as an exception to Jewish [36:51] history. Um, it's certainly true that [36:54] this is, you know, there's there's I [36:57] mean, look, there's the bar is on the [36:58] floor for uh [laughter] [37:00] >> compared to the rest of the world. Sure. [37:02] >> I mean, it's like, you know, yay, no [37:05] one's murdering us. That's awesome. I [37:07] mean, also, you know, look, there's in [37:08] this country there's there's many [37:10] minority groups and like I mean, I think [37:11] it's, you know, there were in settings [37:13] in Europe where it's like Jews were the [37:14] minority for a lot of that history. Mhm. [37:17] >> of you know this is a very different [37:18] history in this country but as you say [37:20] there's also a very different history in [37:22] this country and that this is a country [37:24] that's based on this you know on this [37:26] principle of you know of equality which [37:28] you know does not always meet um has you [37:30] know been a long time in in in [37:33] >> it's aspirational for sure [37:34] >> it's aspirational I mean the country [37:37] Washington yes but you know that there's [37:39] this legal that there's this legal [37:40] framework that where and also because [37:42] because American identity is not based [37:44] on um you know a cultural or an ethnic [37:48] um connect, you know, connection instead [37:50] of being based on this legal framework. [37:52] So that is, you know, that's a really [37:54] different and quite honestly the reason [37:56] that that's possible in America is [37:58] because we killed the people who lived [38:00] here. I mean, to be totally honest, like [38:02] people are always like, "Oh, why can't [38:03] every country be like that?" I'm like, [38:04] "Yeah, if you kill all the people who [38:05] live there, then I guess you can make [38:06] this like wonderful blank slate country [38:09] where it's just, you know, there's no [38:11] nobody was here first and we're all the [38:13] same and we're all, you know, it's like [38:14] you could say like Yeah. I mean, you [38:16] know, they killed all the native [38:16] >> the country of immigrants. Yeah. [38:18] >> Right. Well, we're a country of [38:19] immigrants. Guess why we're a country of [38:20] immigrants? Cuz we killed the Native [38:22] Americans and pushed them out of their [38:23] land. Okay. I mean, you know, there's [38:25] there's a piece that's one piece where, [38:27] you know, there is, you know, there is a [38:28] fuller picture here that made that this, [38:31] you know, aspirational covenantal kind [38:34] of country possible, which isn't great, [38:36] but you know that here we are. This is [38:37] the this history we have. [38:40] Um, you know, I think that that is and [38:44] that's not the history of most places in [38:45] the world, let alone most places where [38:47] Jewish communities have lived. Um, you [38:50] know, this has been um, yeah, this has [38:52] been an extraordinary country for for [38:53] for Jewish life and civilization. also [38:56] because of this sort of co frankly [38:58] coincidence that the um the the the the [39:02] version of Christianity that was very [39:04] motivating to a lot of the American [39:06] founders [39:08] happened to be a version of Christianity [39:10] that was very focused on the Hebrew [39:12] Bible. Um, you know, I mean, like a lot [39:15] of our founding documents have these, [39:17] you know, like quotes from the Hebrew [39:19] Bible, like, you know, proclaim liberty [39:21] throughout the land is the quote on the [39:23] says on the liberty bell, [39:24] >> right? But like, you know, you could [39:25] imagine those same founding fathers [39:27] putting some quote from the Christians [39:30] gospels, you know, something about [39:32] loving your neighbor, something about, [39:33] you know, freedom and salvation. I mean, [39:35] you can imagine that that being the [39:37] language that people were using. It [39:39] happens to not be. It happens to not be. [39:42] Um, so you know, there's some of these [39:44] things that are choices that America has [39:46] made. There's some of these things that [39:47] are just, you know, accidents of [39:48] history. But yeah, you're absolutely [39:50] right that this is a um, you know, an [39:52] extraordinary um, it's an extraordinary [39:54] place for the Jewish community. It's [39:55] been an extraordinary place for, you [39:57] know, many many communities. I mean, [39:58] there's a reason why a lot of people [40:00] around the world would like to come [40:02] here. [40:02] >> Yeah. [40:03] >> You know, [40:04] >> Yeah. So, with all our problems with all [40:07] our problems, this is an opportunity for [40:08] a better life for many reasons for a lot [40:10] of people. [40:11] >> Yeah. and and why it's worth preserving. [40:14] Um [40:14] >> Oh, I mean there's Yes, exactly. [40:17] >> I mean, [40:17] >> exactly. [40:18] >> As as opposed to just [40:21] >> worth preserving, not beyond worth [40:23] preserving. I mean, [40:24] >> it's funny, you know, I was just did an [40:26] interview with another group where it [40:28] was um [40:30] it was it was another Jewish group [40:32] that's like very it was um very it's it [40:34] was like a group that's focused on [40:36] Israel. And they kept they kept asking [40:38] me in this interview like, "Well, when [40:40] would you, you know, weave and make [40:41] aliyah? When would you, you know, why, [40:43] you know, why doesn't the Jewish [40:44] community just like pack up and move to [40:45] Israel?" I'm like, they're like, "What's [40:47] your plan B for when America plant [40:49] fails?" And I'm like, you know, you [40:51] can't really have a plan B when you [40:52] don't have a plan A. Like, what's your [40:55] plan A? And my plan A is we are [40:58] sovereign in this country. When I say [41:00] we, I mean all American citizens are, [41:02] you know, we the people. We are [41:04] sovereign in this country. We are the [41:06] respon. It is our responsibility to [41:07] create the government we live under. [41:09] That is our responsibility as citizens [41:12] and as voters and this is our like this [41:16] is that is what you is unique really [41:17] about um about America versus a lot of [41:20] other countries is that we have this [41:21] system of sovereignty for the people and [41:25] we are the people. [41:26] >> We as American Jews are part of the [41:28] people. We are part of the people. It's [41:30] our responsibility to change what we [41:33] don't like in this country. [41:35] um and you know persuade our neighbors [41:37] that you know this is what that there's [41:39] possibilities that are best for [41:41] everybody and you know I really feel [41:43] like you know that I spoke earlier about [41:46] you know Jewish community being like a [41:47] test case for a pluralistic society can [41:49] your society tolerate descent [41:52] >> can your society tolerate actual [41:54] pluralism [41:56] actual pluralism where many of us have [41:58] blind we all have blind spots of [42:00] different kinds and we all have to sort [42:02] of come together to bring those [42:04] different visions for what we in order [42:06] to build a better future. [42:08] I mean this is our responsibility as [42:11] Americans. So yeah, I mean it's not just [42:13] like you know we're gifted this country [42:14] like we are responsible. It's like what [42:16] Benjamin Franklin says um you know when [42:18] he was coming out of this constitutional [42:20] convention was asked what kind of [42:21] government are we making and he says a [42:23] republic if you can keep it. [42:25] >> Yeah. And it's part of I I certainly [42:28] believe it's part of our responsibility [42:29] to fight for it to keep it. [42:31] >> Of course it is. rather than rather than [42:33] to simply abandon it because currently [42:36] uh [42:37] >> because because that American [42:38] exceptionalism is under siege. Now [42:40] >> correct [42:41] >> I want to get ahead to one of the very [42:43] important stories you tell in this book [42:44] which you know you were in a particular [42:46] position to to tell which is what [42:49] happened at Harvard and your role on its [42:51] anti-semitism committee. you know, you [42:53] paint a very disturbing picture about it [42:56] and quite frankly by extension the rest [42:59] of our elite educational institutions. [43:02] Um, but I guess the the question I want [43:04] to ask is not only tell us about what [43:07] that what that was like, but if Harvard [43:10] and you know Colombia, my alma mater and [43:13] all the other schools, you know, great [43:15] and small, you know, if they aren't [43:18] fixable, and that's the question, are [43:20] they fixable? and indeed don't want to [43:22] have their anti-semitism problem fixed, [43:24] then where should Jews send their kids? [43:28] >> Um, well, I will tell you that I have [43:31] two students in college. I have I have [43:32] four children and two of them are in [43:33] college. I really lucked out because [43:36] both of them are at their first choice [43:37] school, which for both of them was [43:38] Brandeise. [43:40] >> Okay. Well, not that's a boost for, you [43:43] know, that's a problem. [43:45] >> Get out your pom poms for Brandise. [43:47] there sports also that have made [43:49] decisions that have made decisions about [43:51] how they're approaching this that have [43:53] you know and [43:54] >> you know these schools don't have to [43:55] stay at the you know top of the pecking [43:58] order where they have been they don't [44:01] have to stay there [44:03] >> I mean you know there's no reason you [44:05] know and I mean that's another piece [44:06] also is [44:07] >> well there are 50 billion reasons why [44:09] you know Harvard thinks it can stay [44:11] there but uh [44:12] >> well this is correct yes this is correct [44:16] And [44:18] there's a lot of foreign funding [44:19] involved. [44:21] >> There's a lot of foreign funding [44:22] involved. And what I think is so [44:25] interesting though, and this is [44:26] something else I talk about in the book, [44:28] is this sort of whole eruption of this, [44:31] you know, eliminationist hate campaign [44:33] because that's what it was. [44:34] Eliminationist hate campaign coordinated [44:36] by by over by foreign terrorist [44:38] organizations and overseas regimes. That [44:40] is what it was. This was not an organic [44:42] outburst that magically all suddenly or [44:46] organically appeared on October 7th of [44:48] 2023. [44:49] >> Nothing organic about it. Completely [44:51] coordinated. [44:53] >> It only happened at the schools of the [44:54] most expensive tuition. [44:55] >> Yeah. [44:56] >> That should have been studied. Like the [44:57] schools that had these, it's like it [44:59] happened at the schools with the highest [45:01] price points whether they were private [45:02] or public. [45:04] >> And I mean that tells you maybe [45:06] everything you need to know. [45:08] You know, I think a lot of Americans [45:09] have lost their um have, you know, I [45:13] mean, these institutions are losing the [45:15] public's trust. [45:17] There's no question about that. And [45:20] they're going to have to do some serious [45:22] looking in the mirror if they want to [45:23] regain the public's trust. And in the [45:25] meantime, there can be smart [45:27] institutions that seize this opportunity [45:30] to regain the public. [45:31] >> I I Well, I guess [45:32] >> I mean, like this is so Let me put it [45:33] this way. Let me put it this way. I feel [45:35] like people often say that anti-semitism [45:37] is like this canary in the coal mine. [45:38] You know, it's showing that later worse [45:40] things are going to happen in your [45:42] society. It's like this early warning [45:43] sign. I actually think it's the [45:44] opposite. I think it's the sign that [45:47] this institution is already failing. I [45:50] think you see this with the inst with [45:51] the um with the higher education in this [45:54] country with these elite higher [45:55] education. I think you see it with a lot [45:57] of legacy media. I think you see it with [45:59] um some of the um I think you you see it [46:01] with K to2 education. Like this shows up [46:06] downstream from the bigger problems. [46:09] Downstream from kids can't read. [46:12] [laughter] [46:13] Downstream from even kids who can read [46:15] aren't aren't reading. Right. Downstream [46:17] from we've defunded the humanities and [46:19] social sciences for 30 years and pushed [46:21] everyone towards STEM stem STEM and now [46:22] there's nothing. There's nobody who's [46:24] majoring in English anymore. The English [46:25] professors are trying to prove they're [46:26] still relevant. Right? This is [46:28] downstream from that. Right? I mean, [46:30] this is like, you know, same thing with [46:32] like legacy media. Like, you know, [46:33] nobody's looking at, you know, nobody, [46:34] you know, nobody under 50 cares about [46:36] the New York Times anymore, you know, [46:38] like literally no one. So, you know, [46:40] it's like, well, what are these legacy [46:41] institutions doing, right? What do they [46:43] have to do? What like what do they need [46:44] to do to be relevant? There's like this [46:48] like this moment of desperation where [46:50] this is much easier than looking in the [46:52] mirror. [46:54] Well, I think that let me draw you back [46:56] to, you know, your experiences, you [46:58] know, in the as a Harvard alumni, you [47:00] know, and you you were you served on [47:02] this committee that was convened by the [47:05] then president of of Harvard, the who is [47:08] no longer the president of Harvard [47:10] >> did not take a lot of our advice. [47:13] >> Yes. Um clearly I mean did you walk away [47:17] from this experience believing that this [47:20] is a problem that this you know vast [47:23] institution is as you say like when when [47:25] people you know there's an inst incident [47:27] in the book where where you talk about [47:29] well no one there knows all this stuff [47:31] and it's well if if there were only you [47:34] know an institution with a 50 mill [47:35] billion dollar endowment [47:37] >> you know like the first [47:39] >> that could actually teach them this [47:40] stuff. It's the very first meeting and [47:42] like one of the one of the senior [47:43] administrators there in this very first [47:45] meeting was said, you know, we're [47:46] dealing well with a lot of ignorance, [47:48] right? Students are very ignorant about [47:50] Israel. They're very ignorant about the [47:51] Middle East. They're very ignorant about [47:53] Zionism. And I looked at this [47:54] administrator and I'm like, wow, that's [47:56] so sad. I'm like, [47:57] >> if only you could do something about [47:58] that, you know, if only there were, I [48:01] don't know, a educational institution [48:02] with a $50 billion endowment that could [48:04] do something about its students abject [48:06] ignorance. [48:08] >> And yet it doesn't seem to want to. It [48:10] didn't. So, look, I mean, what happened [48:12] was in this committee, it was, you know, [48:14] the I mean, the minute that my name [48:16] became public that I was part of this [48:18] committee and other members of the [48:19] committee, we were just flooded with [48:21] students asking for help, Jewish [48:22] students asking for help. And what I [48:24] thought was so striking is that nobody [48:26] was asking, you know, the the media sort [48:27] of portrayed this as like this whole [48:28] free speech battle about like, oh, [48:30] rallies that go too far or something [48:32] like that. Like, not a single student [48:34] came to us complaining about, oh, I [48:35] don't like this slogan they used at this [48:37] rally. They came to us complaining [48:39] about, you know, I don't like people [48:40] vandalizing my dorm room, right? I don't [48:43] like people chasing me through the law [48:45] school. I don't like people following me [48:48] around campus with a megaphone, [48:49] following me personally around campus [48:51] with a megaphone. I don't like people [48:53] waiting for me outside my dorm room. [48:54] Like, there was one student who stopped [48:56] eating in the dining hall because people [48:57] were waiting for her in the dining hall [48:59] to follow her, you know, chanting and [49:01] yelling at her. Like, this is [49:03] harassment, [49:05] right? This isn't activism. This is [49:07] stalking, harassment, intimidation. I [49:10] mean, these are against state laws, [49:12] right? I mean, you don't even need the [49:13] code of conduct of the university to [49:15] tell you like these are, you know, like [49:17] vandalism is against the law. Stalking [49:19] is against the law. Like, I mean, these [49:21] are not like, you know, I don't know why [49:23] we're pretending that this is some sort [49:25] of, you know, political debate, but it's [49:27] crime. It was crime. Um, you know, in [49:30] some cases, civil rights violation, [49:32] like, yeah, you can't throw a student [49:33] out of your class for being Israeli. [49:36] That's a tit the title six violation. [49:38] Your your um discrimination against by [49:40] uh discrimination based on national or [49:42] origin in an educational setting is [49:44] against the law. So you know I mean [49:46] there's a lot of things like that like [49:48] Harvard now they folded it. Harvard used [49:49] to have a program with Beard State [49:51] University in Ramala. [49:52] >> Beard State University is a an actually [49:54] an apartheid institution where Israeli [49:57] Jews are not allowed on campus. So, you [50:00] know, and one of the public health [50:01] students pointed out to me, she's like, [50:02] you know, if they were a public health [50:04] student, an Israeli Jewish public health [50:06] student, they wouldn't be able to [50:07] participate in this program that Harvard [50:09] is offering, which automatically makes [50:10] the program discriminatory based on [50:12] American civil rights law. So, it's [50:14] like, you know, things like that that [50:15] were just like, you know, like, you [50:18] know, we're not even like you we're not [50:20] even talking about like, oh, it's a [50:21] debate about, you know, where does where [50:23] does anti-zism go too far? Like, it's [50:26] not that. Like, this is literally [50:27] criminal activity. [50:29] um that was targeting Jewish students. [50:31] So like you know I don't know why we're [50:32] pretending it was something else. So [50:33] that was like super clear. Um the [50:36] problem was there was this fire hose of [50:37] incidents at that time. This is in the [50:38] fall of 2023. And we would approach the [50:41] administration with these we were really [50:43] just like you know dealing with the fire [50:45] hose like you know you didn't have the [50:46] space to like think about like long-term [50:48] changes when you're dealing with this [50:49] fire hose. Every meeting we'd be like [50:51] you know here's like the crazy thing [50:52] that just happened in the last you know [50:54] day and a half since we last met. What [50:56] are you doing about it? and we would [50:57] suggest what they should do about it and [50:59] there would always be some reason why [51:00] they couldn't do the thing we suggested. [51:02] It would be like particular to that [51:03] incident and like it only later became [51:06] clear that like there was exactly the [51:08] opposite of the way they had handled [51:09] simort incidents against other [51:10] minorities in other situations previous [51:12] you know previous semester. [51:14] >> Um you know it was like it became very [51:16] very clear very quickly that you're [51:18] you're sort of just banging your head [51:19] against the wall and then there was a [51:21] point where they asked us to compile [51:22] recommendations which we did. Um by a [51:26] year later I think the only one they had [51:27] done was um create spaces that were [51:30] protected from public advocacy. So like [51:32] you know like a polling place like you [51:33] know like you can't bring your you can't [51:35] bring your megaphone chanting your [51:37] slogans for your candidate into the [51:39] polling station like you have to stay [51:40] 100 yards away or something like we had [51:43] you know made some things like that. Um, [51:46] but there was, you know, it was way more [51:48] than that. Like, cuz then it was only [51:49] after they disbanded us that I [51:52] discovered the real problem first [51:54] through Harvard Jewish Alumni Alliance [51:56] did an audit of everything the [51:57] university had been teaching about Jews [51:58] in Israel. It was later um corroborated [52:01] by the university's own anti-semitism [52:03] task force 300page report. They're [52:06] teaching this. They're teaching this. [52:08] And when I say this, I mean [52:09] anti-semitical lies. [52:12] They are teaching it in class. They're [52:14] teaching it in public lectures. They're [52:16] teaching it in programming. And it's [52:17] like, if you're teaching these things, [52:19] then it really doesn't matter what you [52:21] do with like some random kid who [52:22] vandalizes a dorm room. Like, that [52:25] almost doesn't matter anymore because [52:27] you're teaching it. And that's where it [52:29] matters that it's a lie rather than a [52:31] hate. Because if it's a hate, then the [52:32] way you deal with it is dealing with the [52:34] kid who vandalizes the dorm room. If [52:36] it's a lie, then you have a educational [52:39] obligation, [52:41] >> right? And in they're actually [52:43] encouraging it. [52:45] >> Correct. Beyond they're teaching it. [52:47] >> It's not really tolerate. It's not just [52:49] that they're tolerating it. They're [52:50] encouraging. [52:51] >> No, they are they're they're literally [52:52] this is the education you're paying for. [52:55] >> Yeah. [52:55] >> This is this worldass education that [52:57] you're paying for. I mean, it was like [52:58] things like, you know, dozens and dozens [53:01] and dozens and dozens and dozens of [53:03] lecture about, you know, Palestinian [53:05] suffering under the hands of evil [53:06] Israelis. [53:09] Hardly. I think maybe like though they [53:12] would have more lectures about that than [53:14] any other country in the Middle East [53:15] combined and they would have no lectures [53:18] about anything involving like Islamist [53:20] regimes like none. [53:22] >> Right? [53:22] >> You know that was shocking to me. Like I [53:23] remember there was like a whole series [53:24] called Islam in Africa and all the [53:28] lectures are about like you know Sufi [53:29] manuscripts. [53:32] Meanwhile like Islam in Africa I'm like [53:34] Al Qaeda is about to take over the [53:36] capital of Mali. Are we talking about [53:38] that? Mhm. [53:39] >> Like how about Boo Haram, [laughter] [53:41] >> right? ISIS is in Mosambique, right? [53:44] Like what's going on in Sudan? Like [53:46] let's talk about Islam in Africa. Nope. [53:49] >> Sufi manuscripts. [53:52] >> Yeah. I want to just drill down on and [53:54] and to be fair to you. It's just one [53:56] line in passing in your book, but it [53:58] struck me since I I made a mental note [54:00] that I wanted to ask you about it. And [54:02] in it, you mentioned your disagreement [54:06] with the the Trump administration's [54:08] efforts to defund schools like Harvard [54:10] that refused to change or deport foreign [54:13] students that took part in the promos [54:14] rallies. And I guess my question about [54:17] that is why not government intervention [54:20] to enforce you know to punish title six [54:24] violations and if not what Trump was [54:27] trying to do and which I'm it's not [54:29] clear that it that policy has continued [54:31] or will be followed up on then what [54:35] >> there's a much deeper problem with [54:36] education here that wasn't going to be [54:39] solved by a partisan crusade. [54:42] I mean, what then happened was like [54:43] Harvard gets on its high horse and it's [54:45] like, you know, we're stemming out to [54:46] the federal government [laughter] [54:48] and which is to me was so crazy for so [54:50] many reasons is it's like, you know, [54:53] well, we want to defund, you know, [54:55] boycott, divest, and sanction Israel [54:57] because it killed all these people in [54:58] the Middle East. I'm like, you know, the [55:00] American military killed like 200,000 [55:01] people in the Middle East in Iraq and [55:03] Afghanistan. I'm like, why do we want [55:05] federal funding? Shouldn't we be [55:07] divesting from our federal funding? [55:09] >> Exactly. I thought we don't like when we [55:11] kill civilians. Wait, I'm confused. Um, [55:14] you know, there was like this, you know, [55:15] there was um I think it I think it [55:18] backfired because I think it turned this [55:19] into a partisan issue. Um, [55:21] >> well, it's a it was a partisan issue [55:23] because, you know, nobody on the other [55:25] side was supporting it. [55:27] >> I mean, it was Trump is do Trump is [55:29] doing it, therefore it must [55:31] >> I think it was inevitable. I think it [55:32] was inevitable. I part I I look I [55:35] participated in this. I was a witness. I [55:36] was a I was a witness in the I was a as [55:38] we say cooperating witness in the uh in [55:41] the um investigation of Harvard. Um so I [55:45] mean I I I understand this. I think you [55:47] know the reason that I you know didn't [55:49] think that this was the solution was [55:50] because [55:53] >> I don't think the government should be [55:54] legislating what people teach. I don't [55:57] think that that's like you know [55:59] >> why would I why would I trust the [56:02] government to tell me what we should [56:04] teach? I mean that's a that that opens [56:05] so such a can of worms right I mean to [56:08] me [56:08] >> is that can of worms already opened [56:11] >> by the fact that if you teach racism you [56:14] know anti-black racism you will [56:17] >> now working in that space now that I'm [56:19] working in this space of of creating [56:21] these curricula for schools you see like [56:25] that like this is like you know it's not [56:27] about like mandating things there's [56:29] there's a skill set that's been [56:31] abandoned and to me it's like you know [56:33] there's a few pieces here. Here's the [56:35] piece where I think the government can [56:36] play a role. Foreign funding. [56:40] I mean this is outrageous that like we [56:43] have just allowed these tyrannical [56:45] regimes to take over our educational [56:47] institutions. We've allowed them to take [56:48] over um you know a lot of our you know [56:51] thought leadership in this country. Like [56:52] they're funding think tanks. They're [56:54] funding you know media enterprises. Like [56:56] I mean this is like and and that would [56:58] even that would kind of be fine if it [57:01] were transparent but it's not right. [57:02] Like if if consumers knew, okay, this is [57:05] a Qatari think tank that I'm reading [57:07] this article from, but they don't, [57:09] right? So, you know, or this is a Qatari [57:11] funded department at this institution, [57:13] they don't, but they don't know that. Or [57:14] this is a Chinese funded institute. [57:16] Like, if there was transparency, fine. [57:19] If there's no transparency, you know, [57:21] this is this that is a place where the [57:22] government really does have a role. Um, [57:25] you know, obviously material support for [57:27] terrorism, that's an obvious place where [57:28] the government has a role. I mean, [57:30] there's a lot of places where the [57:31] government has a role here. Um, I feel [57:34] like there's a but to me there there's a [57:38] deeper issue here like that isn't really [57:40] about anti-semitism and it isn't really [57:43] about viewpoint diversity cuz that was [57:45] the other piece that I thought was [57:46] absurd like this sort of like oh the way [57:48] to fix this is viewpoint diversity. I'm [57:50] like, well, the problem is not I mean [57:52] that that is a problem, but that's not [57:54] the but viewpoint diversity is a problem [57:57] at these universities obviously. [58:01] But think about it this way. If [58:02] anti-semitism is a lie, the problem here [58:04] is that these departments are teaching [58:06] lies, not just the departments, but all [58:08] the guest speakers, all the colloquial, [58:10] the forums, all the lectures. [58:13] If the problem is that they're teaching [58:14] a lie, if you had a whole department of [58:16] historians who are all Holocaust [58:18] deniers, would the solution be to hire a [58:21] historian who thinks the Holocaust did [58:23] happen so that they could have a debate [58:27] >> so students could be exposed to [58:29] viewpoint diversity. [58:31] >> No, you have a much bigger problem here. [58:33] A much bigger problem here. And it's [58:35] only going to get worse now that you're [58:36] dealing with AI where we determine what [58:40] is, you know, truth based on consensus. [58:43] >> Yeah. [58:43] >> Right. [58:44] >> Well, that's actually a good [58:46] >> like there's just to me like just making [58:48] this into like, you know, we're going to [58:49] shut down the funding for the [58:50] universities because like the Jews are [58:52] complaining about it [58:54] >> evades a much deeper problem. A much [58:57] deeper problem. [58:59] >> Yeah. about this, frankly, not even just [59:01] the content, but the skills that we're [59:03] not teaching people. And frankly, to me, [59:06] those skills are about [59:09] what why are you so susceptible to being [59:11] manipulated? [59:13] What skills and armor do you have to to [59:16] know when someone's trying to why do you [59:19] manipulate you? [59:21] >> To me, that's like the most important [59:22] skill we should be teaching our students [59:24] now. I'm like, really, nobody's teaching [59:25] it. And like it and also, it's a bigger [59:26] problem in K to2. [59:28] >> Yes. Um, agree there. There there's more [59:31] to talk about there, but I want to move [59:33] on to a couple of [59:34] >> Yes. And also I was gonna say I'm [59:35] actually out of I I have to jump to [59:36] another interview, unfortunately. [59:39] >> Okay. Well, um, then we'll have to then [59:42] uh leave it there, Daryl Horn. It's been [59:44] a delight to have you on uh as again. [59:48] And tell us where uh people can follow [59:50] your work, how they can get your books, [59:52] and learn more about the Tel Institute. [59:55] >> Sure. So um uh my website is [59:58] daryahhorn.com for information about my [60:00] books. Um I also the tell institute is [60:03] uh at thetel institute tell. So the [60:07] tellinstitute.org and your listeners who [60:09] are interested can sign up to find out [60:10] more information about it. [60:12] >> Okay, great. Well, thank you. We also [60:15] want to thank our audience. Please [60:17] remember to tune in every day for [60:18] Jonathan Tobin Daily Edition, which you [60:20] can hear wherever you get your podcasts. [60:23] And whether you're listening to us on [60:24] any one of them or watching us live on [60:26] Facebook or X or on the JNS YouTube [60:29] channel, please like and or subscribe to [60:31] JNS. Click on the bell for notifications [60:34] and give us good reviews. Please write [60:36] to us at think twice atjns.org and let [60:39] us know where you listen or watch the [60:40] show and what you think about it. And [60:43] remember, keep reading and thinking for [60:45] yourself, and we'll see you again next [60:48] week. [music] [60:56] >> [music]