Transcript [00:00] What's going to happen to tomorrow [00:01] morning with all these immigrants, [00:03] [music] Islamists communities will [00:05] become more and more violent. We also [00:07] might face an October 7th [00:11] in Birmingham, in Paris, or other places [00:14] in Europe. [00:16] >> Shalom Shalom. Welcome to JNS TV. [00:19] We will be sitting down for an interview [00:21] with Amichai Chikli, Israel's cabinet [00:23] minister for diaspora affairs and [00:24] combating anti-Semitism about the [00:28] revolution really, which he has led [00:30] along with others to reorient Israel's [00:32] alliances to include forces within the [00:36] ideological right in Europe [00:39] that for many years, if not decades, had [00:41] been excommunicated in Jerusalem. [00:44] But first, [00:45] Minister, [00:46] let's um make a snapshot for the record, [00:50] 2 days ahead of the elections. How's it [00:52] looking? What's your political gut [00:55] instinct telling you? [00:57] >> Look, we are seeing the polls, so it's [00:59] not just the gut. We are [01:01] well, impacted by what we see in the [01:05] various [01:06] data that we are exposed to, and [01:08] obviously the polls are never [01:11] uh just polls. Yes, it's um [01:14] it's part of the campaign, and you have [01:16] different polls [01:18] with different messages [01:20] coming from the polls. Um [01:24] one one thing is for sure, [01:27] the race is very tight. [01:30] There will be surprises, [01:32] and [01:33] I don't know what will be the final [01:36] results, [01:37] and I hope that Amissale will be clever [01:41] enough [01:42] to make sure that we have a right-wing [01:44] coalition. [01:47] >> Okay. Now, let's start talking shop. [01:50] Which forces [01:52] were excommunicated, untouchable before [01:55] you took office in 2022 [01:58] that are now engaged with that are now [02:01] on the political map in Israel. [02:03] >> Vox Rassemblement National [02:06] >> Vox is Spain. [02:07] Rassemblement National is France. [02:09] >> FPÖ [02:11] Chega [02:11] >> in [02:13] >> Chega Portugal [02:16] Swedish Democrats to some extent they [02:18] were they were connected but not not at [02:20] the level that we've [02:22] reached to in this government. That's [02:25] the general picture. [02:27] >> Okay. [02:28] I want to get into why [02:31] whether this is a good thing. But first [02:33] I want to note, you know, in Israel's [02:34] parochial rather parochial domestic [02:37] politics you stand out as a person with [02:41] profound knowledge of both Judaism in [02:43] the diaspora and international politics [02:47] and that stems from your background and [02:50] the way you were raised, where you were [02:52] raised. Can you tell us a little bit [02:53] about that? Present your credentials. I [02:55] don't mean [02:56] academic degrees but real-life [02:58] experience. [03:00] >> So first I grew up in Jerusalem. Both my [03:03] parents made aliyah [03:05] from France. My father originally from [03:09] Tunisia, my mother from Strasbourg. [03:11] And [03:13] So [03:15] I had a a lot of French at home [03:19] to begin with. Grew up. Later I joined a [03:22] pre-military academy program [03:25] in Man Baruch. [03:27] I was uh [03:28] for many years in Golani. [03:31] And then [03:33] as you mentioned in terms of uh [03:35] studying, I studied diplomacy [03:38] Middle Eastern studies. [03:41] I then established [03:44] Tavor Leadership Academy. [03:46] And for 12 years I was [03:49] the leader of [03:51] the program but also a student. [03:53] And I had the privilege to hear [03:55] endless [03:57] lectures regarding philosophy, Judaism, [04:00] Zionism, history, [04:02] and also to teach the history of the [04:04] state of Israel, [04:06] um these kind of things. And I was very [04:08] curious about what's going on also [04:09] worldwide in terms of [04:12] what does it mean to be a conservative [04:15] um [04:16] nationalism, liberalism, [04:19] Zionism, to go deep, to read Hess, to [04:22] read Alkalai, to read Kalischer, to read [04:25] Herzl, um to try and and understand who [04:29] they really are based on their writing, [04:32] not about what people telling about [04:34] Herzl, what did Herzl [04:37] um wrote in The Jewish State, in [04:41] Altneuland, [04:42] in his diaries, [04:44] um [04:46] so this is the background. [04:49] Um [04:49] >> You're burying the lead. You're a [04:51] rabbi's son. [04:52] >> Yeah. Rabbi Nachman [04:54] Kahane. [04:56] Yeah, it's true. [04:57] >> So you're plugged into [04:59] uh you know, non-Orthodox Jewry at the [05:03] navel. [05:04] >> Yes, so it's a it's a Mizrahi home in [05:06] terms of the Sephardi [05:09] home, but as you mentioned, my father [05:12] uh learned in Schechter. [05:14] Okay, so [05:15] and in terms of synagogues, [05:17] uh when I was young, [05:19] my father used to go to a different [05:22] synagogue every Shabbat. [05:24] So we basically went into countless [05:28] synagogues in Jerusalem. [05:29] >> Mhm. [05:31] >> Everything you can uh akol, everything. [05:35] >> Wow. [05:36] Um so getting back to the subject at [05:38] hand, why is it a good thing [05:41] and why is it a good thing that we have [05:43] now direct channels to Vox Saône [05:46] National, FPO, and the rest of them. [05:49] >> So, it started with Vox, and it started [05:51] based on my role as the Minister of [05:53] Diaspora Affairs [05:55] when I was in a very close relationship [05:57] with David Hatchwell, [05:59] one of the prominent leaders of the [06:01] Spanish [06:03] Jewish community in Madrid. [06:06] And he introduced me to [06:08] Abascal, the leader of Vox, [06:10] and um [06:12] there was um [06:14] friendship um [06:16] that is um [06:17] being developed uh with not just Abascal [06:21] himself, but also Hermann Tertsch and [06:23] other leaders from uh [06:26] uh [06:26] from from the party who came to visit [06:28] here, and we came to visit in Europe. [06:31] And the pivot moment was when Sanchez [06:34] arrived with former Prime Minister of [06:37] Belgium. It was during the first deal of [06:41] the hostages, [06:43] and they [06:45] uh [06:46] took advantage [06:47] of the um [06:50] let's say the um the mess in terms of [06:52] the media in terms of the media and the [06:55] noise, and they've created a um [06:58] uh journalist party [07:01] in the Rafah border [07:04] in order to take advantage [07:06] >> A press conference? [07:06] >> Yeah, a press conference in at the Rafah [07:08] at the Rafah corridor [07:11] when the hostages were released [07:13] to speak about a Palestinian state. [07:16] >> So, the Spanish officials, the Prime [07:17] Minister [07:18] >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [07:20] And to me, it it was so cynical from [07:23] them [07:24] to take advantage of the moment that we [07:27] are releasing the hostages [07:29] in order to promote uh [07:31] the the recognition in a Palestinian [07:33] state. [07:34] And it was it was too much, [07:37] and I thought that there's need to be a [07:39] respond, [07:40] and the idea was uh, to bring Abascal to [07:44] Jerusalem, [07:46] to meet the prime minister, [07:48] to visit the city of David, [07:49] to answer Sanchez [07:52] in a very, uh, let's say, [07:55] clear way with the opposition [07:58] in Spain. [07:58] >> Okay, that's that's very dicey [08:00] territory, right? [08:02] >> Yeah. [08:02] >> Going into the, uh, [08:04] opponent, uh, into their internal [08:07] politics and start pressing buttons [08:09] there to retaliate for what they're [08:11] doing to you. Um, did you have to [08:14] coordinate with, uh, the foreign [08:15] ministry? Were they on board? Was there [08:17] a foreign [08:17] >> Here's the advantage of being the [08:19] Minister of Diaspora Affairs. [08:21] Since this is not a [08:23] top senior, uh, position, [08:26] like the Minister of Defense or the [08:29] Minister of Foreign Affairs, [08:31] the Minister of Foreign Affairs is very [08:33] limited [08:34] in the way he can play. [08:36] And usually Minister of Foreign Affairs [08:37] will not cooperate with opposition [08:40] leaders. [08:41] They need to work with the current [08:42] government in each and every state. [08:45] But when you're leading [08:48] a smaller office [08:50] which is dealing also with combating [08:51] anti-Semitism, [08:53] you can go a little bit off, you know, [08:57] outside of of the borders, the formal [08:59] borders, [09:01] and to do things that might serve [09:04] the grand strategy of the State of [09:07] Israel and the Minister of Foreign [09:09] Affairs, but they cannot do it right [09:10] now. [09:11] To pave the way, like a reconnaissance [09:14] unit that goes [09:15] before [09:17] the, [09:18] uh, the [09:19] large units of the army, okay? Before [09:21] the brigades and the divisions. [09:24] Commando unit. [09:25] >> You're a spy, of course. [09:27] >> So, that was the idea here. [09:30] So, the [09:31] By the way, when I visited Spain and I [09:33] wanted to meet the people of Vox, there [09:35] was, uh, let's say, bureaucracy [09:38] of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs [09:40] wasn't very happy [09:42] with the idea of meeting Vox. And when [09:45] we brought here Vox for the first time, [09:47] they also they weren't happy about about [09:49] that. But the big balagan, the big, uh, [09:52] let's say, a resistance and, uh, [09:55] the big noise was later on when we [09:58] brought, uh, Jordan Bardella [10:01] >> from the National Rally. [10:03] >> From the Rassemblement National. [10:05] For the conference for combating [10:07] anti-Semitism. [10:09] And here we had first uh, Bernard-Henri [10:11] Lévy who was a keynote speaker during [10:14] the event. [10:15] >> Left-leaning French philosopher, [10:17] >> Yeah, he he's very famous. [10:19] And he said, "If [10:21] Jordan Bardella is coming, [10:25] I'm canceling my speech." [10:28] We We told him, "We highly respect you, [10:31] but we will not cancel the the speech." [10:35] Then we had [10:37] a CRIF [10:38] uh, basically [10:40] >> CRIF is the umbrella organization of [10:42] French Jewish communities and [10:43] organizations. [10:44] >> calling many people [10:46] to cancel [10:47] and not to attend the event, [10:50] uh, because of of Jordan Bardella's [10:53] participation. [10:55] And we had some other cancellation from [10:57] from other delegations. [11:00] But we said, [11:02] "No matter what, [11:03] we're not canceling Jordan Bardella. [11:06] We think it's important to have him [11:09] based on the fact that first, [11:13] Marine Le Pen changed her views [11:15] regarding her father who was dismissed [11:18] from the party and he also passed away. [11:20] By standing with the Jewish community [11:23] uh, [11:24] on October 7th when there was in the [11:26] march. By the way, Macron did not [11:29] attend, uh, the march. [11:30] >> She did more than just uh, [11:32] distance herself. She kicked them out of [11:34] the party. Yeah. [11:34] >> Yeah. [11:34] >> Jean-Marie [11:35] >> Yeah. [11:35] >> Jean-Marie Le Pen, the founder of the [11:37] >> True. [11:38] >> uh [11:38] >> True. [11:39] >> National Rally, speaking so [11:42] loud and clear against Hamas atrocities, [11:46] loud and clear against The Hague and his [11:48] decision regarding Netanyahu and Gallant [11:51] with the arrest warrant, um [11:54] all the accusations [11:56] uh of genocide, and also resisting the [11:59] idea of recognizing a Palestinian state [12:02] during the war when we have hostages [12:04] still at the end of Hamas. So, they were [12:06] very, very systematically uh aligned [12:11] uh with the say the strategic um uh [12:15] agenda of the state of Israel against [12:18] terror, against Hamas, with the Jewish [12:20] community, against anti-Semitism. And [12:22] also on the personal level, I was with [12:24] Jordan Bardella at CPAC [12:27] in Washington. And he was supposed to [12:29] give the speech. He was a keynote [12:30] speaker in at CPAC. [12:33] And during the CPAC conference, there [12:35] was [12:36] uh [12:37] an incident with [12:38] uh [12:39] um uh Steve Bannon, [12:42] who were allegedly uh [12:44] raising his hand, and it was like a Nazi [12:47] salute. He said it's not true. Never [12:49] mind. There was an incident. Okay, there [12:51] was a There was a balagan. [12:53] And based on that incident, [12:57] um Bardella said, "I'm not attending the [13:00] conference. I'm not going to speak." [13:03] He made all He made it all the way to [13:04] Israel. [13:05] >> To Washington. [13:06] >> No, I'm speaking about CPAC. [13:07] >> Yeah. [13:08] >> Washington. [13:09] >> Yeah. [13:09] >> And he refused to speak because of Steve [13:10] Bannon. [13:11] So, um [13:14] to me, it was clear 100% [13:16] no way that this person, this leader, is [13:21] by any any chance anti-Semitic. [13:25] Uh and he also seemed to me a very [13:27] serious man. [13:29] Uh, [13:30] he understand the threat of radical [13:32] Islam, of political Islam, not just [13:35] radical Islam, but political Islam, the [13:36] Muslim Brotherhood. [13:38] I think that they have the right agenda [13:41] uh, [13:42] regarding immigration policies and the [13:44] responsibility of mass migration into [13:47] Europe generally, into France. Same goes [13:49] to Vox, Spain, and we saw what happened [13:51] in Ceuta. [13:53] And therefore, we insisted, despite [13:57] the fact that we have translations and [13:59] we have countless uh, [14:03] um, articles against against me, against [14:05] the conference. [14:07] Um, but I think that if you want to [14:09] change something, if you want to change [14:11] the course [14:12] of the state, the course of uh, the [14:15] um, foreign relationship of the state of [14:18] Israel, you would face [14:20] resistance. If If you want to go [14:23] the same path, [14:25] no problem. Right. But if you want to [14:27] break the status quo, [14:29] it it it will it will uh, it will cause [14:31] you [14:32] uh, [14:33] some resistance and people that would [14:34] say, "What are you doing? It's not It's [14:36] not right." etc. [14:37] >> I want to ask a little bit more about [14:38] that, but uh, want to also jump in and I [14:41] mentioned the word revolution. Well, [14:43] what happened in France was maybe not a [14:44] revolution, but a reversal [14:46] uh, of, you know, it's a civil war [14:48] inside the National Party, one of [14:51] France's largest parties, the old [14:54] audiences of Jean and Marine Le Pen, [14:57] Bruno Gollnisch, were kicked out and in [15:00] favor of a new image. It was a real real [15:02] reversal for that party. Remarkable that [15:05] we haven't uh, maybe seen anywhere in [15:07] Europe. Um, but you mentioned pushback [15:09] from the Foreign Ministry. Some people [15:11] didn't like it. Are you being [15:12] euphemistic or did they really pound on [15:15] the table? Did you have to fight it out [15:17] with the Foreign Ministry? [15:18] >> It's You need to to the minister [15:21] himself. [15:23] No problem with the ministers. [15:25] But when it comes to the embassy level, [15:28] to the bureaucracy level, yes, they were [15:30] against it 100%. [15:33] >> Did they try sabotage it? [15:35] >> Not that I know [15:37] about concrete [15:39] operational, [15:41] but they were telling us that they think [15:44] it's it's not it's not good to be in [15:46] touch with folks, to be in touch with [15:48] Rassemblement National, etc. They made [15:50] it clear that they are against it. [15:52] Sabotage is a big word. [15:55] >> Um what's clear to us [15:58] what happened on the left following [15:59] October 7th. [16:00] >> Mhm. [16:01] >> How the attitudes to Israel and the Jews [16:04] have changed. What happened on the right [16:06] following October 7th? And do people on [16:08] the right on the ideological right [16:09] connect Be'eri [16:12] to Saint-Denis, what's happening in both [16:15] places? [16:15] >> Yeah. [16:16] So look, I think that the answer [16:19] um regarding the left [16:22] is that on October 7th [16:25] what you could see [16:27] for [16:29] about a day [16:31] is [16:32] actually the fulfillment [16:35] of the Palestinian national vision [16:39] of the right of return. [16:40] What they called Haq al-Awda. Yeah? [16:44] That is [16:45] the vision of the Palestinian national [16:48] movement. [16:50] It's not to return [16:52] in order to create [16:54] or in order to build. [16:57] Is the right to return [16:59] in order to destroy to burn to kill. [17:04] The Palestinian identity [17:06] is based [17:08] on resistance to the [17:10] Zionist national movement the Jewish [17:13] national movement, which is the same. [17:15] Yeah, the Jewish national is Zionism. [17:18] The entire vision of the Palestinians is [17:22] to prevent the Jews [17:24] from having a sovereign state in the [17:27] land of Israel. [17:30] They don't have [17:32] an ideology that you can separate from [17:35] the fight against Zionism. If you take [17:38] out of the Palestinian identity, [17:41] the fight, the struggle against [17:44] the Jewish national movement, there is [17:46] no Palestinian identity. [17:47] >> Okay, and what happened on the right? [17:49] >> So, this is on the left. [17:51] And [17:52] pay attention. [17:54] We see Palestinian flags [17:57] doing the riots in Paris, in Marseille. [18:01] And basically, these are riots [18:04] of students or for the rights of [18:06] students, something like that. It's got [18:09] nothing It's got nothing to do on [18:12] It's got nothing to do [18:14] with Israel, Gaza [18:16] on the surface. [18:18] But it's still It's the same [18:20] mechanism of thinking. [18:23] They're not [18:25] against [18:26] the government in France or against [18:28] France because they want to create [18:30] something else, because they have some [18:33] positive vision regarding the future of [18:36] France, of Europe, of Italy. No. [18:40] Their vision is to destroy. [18:43] To destroy Western civilization. This is [18:46] the reason why you see the Palestinian [18:48] flags in those riots. [18:50] >> And what are you feeling as someone [18:51] who's connected, who grew up in the [18:53] cradle of French culture? What are you [18:55] feeling when you see those images? [18:58] >> I feel sad [19:00] for because I think that [19:02] France they had [19:04] great culture, [19:05] beautiful state, [19:08] much to offer Uh, and [19:11] it's being destroyed and ruined, okay? [19:14] And they are losing their state because [19:16] of political correctness. [19:18] That's what's happening in France. [19:21] Now, on the right, [19:23] what you can see [19:25] is that people in Europe are saying, [19:27] "Wait a minute. This is not a joke. [19:30] What's going to happen tomorrow morning [19:32] with all these [19:33] uh, immigrants, Islamist communities [19:37] who are becoming more and more violent?" [19:40] We also might [19:42] face an October 7th [19:45] in Birmingham, [19:48] in Paris, [19:50] or other places in Europe. [19:53] And you can see also the takeover [19:56] by democratic means, but they're taking [19:58] over the states. [20:00] So, I think that that's what's happening [20:01] on the right. [20:02] >> Mhm. [20:03] >> Um, you know, we saw in the US [20:05] the horseshoe right, in which the [20:09] attachment to activistic attitudes is so [20:11] strong by some on the right that it [20:15] supersedes their national interests. [20:17] Take the case of Israel. You have [20:19] conservatives in the US [20:21] who are so [20:22] hostile to the Jewish state that they [20:24] let that hostility overpower their own [20:28] national interests in collaborating in [20:30] cooperating with Israel. Um, and we are [20:33] actually also saw evidence of this in [20:35] Europe. We saw Jobbik. It had an Iranian [20:38] fling. Jobbik in Hungary, which is an [20:40] anti-Semitic party, had quite a flirt [20:42] with Iran in the [20:44] 2010s. [20:46] Um, we even saw skepticism on Israel by [20:49] Marine Le Pen. She was making sounds [20:51] about Palestinian state this, Israel is [20:54] too cruel there. So, [20:58] what I'm asking is, [21:00] is this going to flip on us? [21:02] Because then, then we will have [21:03] swallowed the frog, no pun intended, and [21:07] made some pre-orientation, some [21:09] concessions, fought the fight against [21:11] people who were saying no way. [21:14] And instead then we still have [21:17] another what Macron 2.0? Why go to that? [21:19] >> I don't think so. I would explain why. [21:22] First, [21:24] we're speaking about immigration. We're [21:26] speaking about October 7th because these [21:28] are [21:29] the issues that we are dealing with [21:31] currently. [21:33] But when you look at the conservative [21:34] movements [21:36] in Europe or in America, [21:39] the foundation [21:41] is much deeper. [21:43] We believe, we on the right in Israel, [21:46] in the value of nationalism [21:49] based on what we've read, not this [21:52] parsha, but [21:54] a week and a day ago, [21:56] parshat Noach, [21:58] the tower of Babylon, [22:00] the idea of one one state that will [22:04] dominant the world. [22:05] This is the vision [22:07] of Sharia. [22:09] It's an empire [22:11] that dominates the dominant the entire [22:13] world. [22:14] This is the communist [22:16] ideology, one ideology for the entire [22:19] world. [22:20] And this is [22:21] in contradicts [22:23] the basic philosophy of Judaism, of [22:27] various nation [22:28] nations. Okay? With different beliefs. [22:32] We have the seven [22:33] um [22:34] um mitzvot, the seven [22:36] principles of Noach. [22:38] But you have a variety of nations. [22:41] Okay? And you have nation state. And in [22:44] those nation state, you have family, [22:46] you have tradition, and the importance [22:48] of family, community, tradition, [22:51] >> Mhm. [22:52] >> nationalism. This is the foundation of [22:56] the conservative movement. Wherever [22:59] you are on the face of earth. And this [23:02] is why you see more and more [23:03] collaboration of conservative movements [23:06] in order to work together [23:09] globally again against [23:11] the [23:13] Sharia ideology to impose Sharia the [23:16] Islamist ideology and also [23:18] the communist Marxist progressive [23:21] ideology. So [23:23] what I'm trying to say is that there is [23:26] there are values [23:29] that unites us [23:32] before the issues of immigration. It's [23:36] obviously it's connected because [23:38] when you go to immigration you're saying [23:41] wait a second [23:43] what does it mean to be French? [23:46] Is this just about the fact that you [23:49] were born or you have a [23:51] an ID? [23:53] Or is it [23:55] something which is cultural [23:58] um [23:59] regarding your faith, regarding your [24:02] values. If you're not embracing the [24:05] values [24:08] of French culture [24:10] even if you have a French [24:13] passport ID, whatever, it doesn't mean [24:15] that you are part of this [24:17] family, okay? Same goes to Britain, same [24:20] goes to the US, same goes to everywhere [24:22] on on the face of Earth. [24:23] >> So the connection with the conservative [24:25] global conservative movement is at a [24:27] much deeper, more fundamental level than [24:30] just interest. [24:30] >> That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. [24:33] >> Um but you know, leaders of Jewish [24:35] communities in the countries we [24:36] mentioned don't always see it that way. [24:39] CRIF, the umbrella group in France over [24:41] the Jews, have still excommunicate uh [24:45] Rassemblement National to this day. The [24:47] Board of Deputies abhors and loathes [24:50] uh Tommy Robinson who you hosted here [24:52] and they made no secret of it. And [24:55] they're saying, "Look, this minister is [24:57] is weakening our hand. He's undermining [24:59] us. What do you say to that? [25:01] >> Well, [25:03] I don't see it [25:04] uh [25:05] the same way at all. [25:07] Uh I think that sometimes [25:10] um [25:11] Jewish traditional [25:14] um [25:15] organization such as uh the Board of [25:19] Deputies, for instance. [25:21] Naturally, they are connected to the [25:23] high society [25:25] in in England, which is very nice, which [25:27] is okay. [25:29] And they share [25:31] in many cases the same political [25:35] views as the elites [25:37] in Britain or if we're speaking about [25:40] Akif in France. And they are connected [25:43] more to the current elites in the state. [25:47] And usually usually and generally [25:49] speaking [25:51] the elite will be more [25:54] at the center center left rather than [25:57] the right. Not to mention not to mention [26:00] far right. And the far right is much [26:03] more connected to the streets, okay? [26:05] And by the way, I think that the term [26:07] far right today is also is not accurate. [26:09] I used ideological right, okay? [26:11] Ideological Yeah, they call it the far [26:13] right, but it's not far right because [26:14] now they are they are leading every [26:16] poll, okay? And I also I I don't hear [26:19] anything radical from uh Bardella or Le [26:22] Pen. Protecting your borders is it [26:26] something radical? No, I think it's [26:27] something natural. [26:29] I think that the reality [26:32] is radical [26:34] and the old politics [26:36] is irrelevant [26:38] even irrational. [26:40] So [26:41] what you call far right [26:44] I see it today as moderate [26:47] common sense [26:49] and going back to these organizations [26:51] such as [26:52] Board of Deputies Akif, [26:54] which some of them are led by very nice [26:56] people who I respect. [26:58] They are [27:02] connected to a certain part of the [27:04] society. I mentioned elite. [27:07] More leaning to the left, generally [27:08] speaking. [27:10] And we here in Israel, [27:13] first, when I look at the future of the [27:16] Jewish community, [27:17] I think that the immigration policies [27:19] led by the center-left parties in France [27:22] are posing a major threat [27:25] for the Jewish community in France. So, [27:27] it's not just about [27:29] the interest of the state of Israel [27:31] versus the interest of the local Jewish [27:33] community. No, even if I look through [27:35] the lenses of the Jewish community, [27:39] mass migration is a threat, [27:42] even an existential threat, [27:45] for the Jewish community in France [27:47] and Britain. [27:49] Okay? [27:50] And when you look at it from the lenses [27:53] of Israel [27:55] uh strategy, [27:58] I don't think we can earn the Labour [28:01] Party. [28:02] Look at what's happening in the Labour [28:04] Party. [28:05] Some of the party is speaking like [28:06] Al-Qaeda members. Okay? [28:10] Most of them are from Pakistani origin. [28:12] Okay? [28:14] Speaking about what what does it mean to [28:16] be uh [28:17] part of of Britain. [28:19] Okay? [28:20] And [28:22] I think we need to invest [28:25] in the people [28:26] of Britain. [28:28] The people that are [28:29] following these major marches with the [28:32] English flags. [28:35] English patriots. [28:37] I care more [28:39] about English patriots [28:41] than [28:42] Labour leaders such as Miliband uh and [28:46] and and and and and his colleagues. [28:48] Okay, I care more about French patriots [28:52] than Macron and his colleagues [28:54] from the [28:55] top [28:56] schools of politics. [28:58] >> Okay, but where does the red line [28:59] actually [29:01] pass? [29:02] >> There are red lines. [29:03] >> Okay, can you name them for me? [29:04] >> Yes. [29:05] >> And let's talk specifically about the [29:07] AfD, the Alternative für [29:09] >> problem. But before we speak about AfD, [29:10] let us speak about the FPÖ. [29:13] >> You know. [29:13] >> Because FPÖ in Austria I [29:16] I think it's the most sensitive case. [29:20] Because if you learned history, you know [29:22] that Hitler is not from Germany, [29:24] is from Austria. [29:26] And the Nazi Party was established in [29:28] Austria. [29:29] And the philosophers of the race theory [29:34] came from the University of Vienna. [29:37] Uh and by the way, uh if you read Herzl, [29:40] who was a student in the University of [29:43] Vienna. [29:44] Uh [29:45] so, he writes about it [29:47] um [29:48] um in in his books. [29:50] And therefore, Austria is a super super [29:55] sensitive uh state. [29:57] And within the FPÖ party, if you go back [30:03] you had people who were aligned with the [30:04] Nazi Party. [30:05] >> It was founded by It's not [30:07] >> Yeah. So, so so this party [30:10] was much more [30:12] um [30:14] delicate. [30:16] And we had meetings [30:18] uh for about a a year and a half. [30:22] And it took it took a period of time to [30:25] discuss with them and to explain that in [30:27] order that we can [30:28] uh create [30:30] a [30:31] situation in which we have formal [30:34] relationship with FPÖ [30:36] we need to make sure, for instance, that [30:39] they adopt [30:40] the IRA definition. [30:42] That they are speaking against [30:45] what happened in in the party in the [30:47] past, recognizing the [30:49] what happened in the past, saying we we [30:51] this is a a new chapter. Okay? Um [30:56] and [30:57] after several meetings [31:00] off [31:01] off meeting, okay? Not not formal [31:03] meetings. [31:04] About 2 months ago [31:07] Kickl gave a very important speech in [31:11] Strasbourg [31:13] when he was adopting 11 the 11 points of [31:17] IRA [31:18] and repeating them one after another [31:21] and saying specifically [31:23] that he is emphasizing each and every [31:26] part of the IRA definition, so no one [31:30] could could say that he is adopting just [31:33] parts [31:34] of the IRA definition that are that are [31:36] more convenient for him. He's taking the [31:39] entire [31:41] IRA definition that includes [31:43] >> all of Holocaust Kickl head of the [31:45] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That includes uh [31:48] Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism from [31:50] the right or from the left, based on [31:53] racial anti-Semitism or anti-Zionist [31:56] Zionism saying that [31:57] >> [snorts] [31:57] >> we don't have a right to have our own [31:59] state, etc., etc. And also referring to [32:02] the past, rejecting the past of the [32:05] party. Uh admitting the sins that were [32:08] made. So [32:10] that was a process um which I think it [32:14] was super super important because [32:18] because [32:19] when you look at the future in Austria [32:22] it might be as [32:24] the leading party uh the leading party. [32:27] And they are saying not just that they [32:30] adopt the IRA definition [32:32] but they're saying more. We want to move [32:34] the embassy to Jerusalem. We recognize [32:37] the rights of Jews in Judea and Samaria. [32:40] And members of the party are visiting in [32:45] all across Judea and Samaria, and not [32:47] just Jerusalem. So, it's it's a a very [32:49] deep process, [32:52] very serious process. [32:54] And [32:56] you mentioned AfD. [32:59] So, AfD in terms of the background, it's [33:01] a new party, okay? 25 years, I think. Uh [33:05] led by [33:08] professors for economy from the [33:09] university, three professors who [33:11] established the party. [33:13] And [33:14] by the way, there was a very nice book [33:16] that was written by Eldad Beck. [33:18] Uh Alternative, [33:21] which is a great book if you really want [33:23] to go deep into the history of the [33:25] party. [33:26] And also with AfD, [33:28] just like with FPÖ, [33:30] uh there is a we have conversation, but [33:34] these are not official conversation. [33:37] Uh I've seen Alice Weidel in CPAC [33:39] conference. [33:41] She's [33:42] I think [33:43] uh [33:44] super [33:46] impressive [33:47] as a leader in terms of their ideology [33:51] regarding uh [33:52] mass migration, I [33:54] I think they're they're on the right [33:56] page. And naturally, but on the fringes [33:59] of the party, you can see that [34:02] far right in Germany, especially in [34:03] Eastern Germany, [34:06] was infiltrating the party, okay? So, [34:09] you have uh [34:11] this is something which is problematic. [34:13] Also, [34:15] they never adopted the IRA definition. [34:19] Uh they were not very clear regarding [34:21] Iran, [34:22] the war against Iran. [34:24] And so, [34:25] um [34:26] I hope that it will change in the [34:27] future. [34:29] But as for now, we don't have the same [34:31] relationship that we have with Volks, [34:34] with FPO. Uh [34:36] with the Rassemblement National, we [34:37] don't have it. [34:38] >> So, Elon uh [34:38] >> Elon Musk and AfD. [34:40] >> He posits that he posits that AfD is no [34:43] different essentially to other [34:46] ideological right-wing parties, but [34:48] because of Germany's historical baggage, [34:51] it's it gets singled out. Is there any [34:53] truth to that claim? [34:54] >> No, it's not singled out because uh [34:56] the same goes for FPO. [34:59] In terms of the history, the same goes, [35:01] but the FPO decided as a party that they [35:04] are formally adopting the IHRA [35:05] definition. [35:07] They said, "We want to move the embassy [35:10] to Jerusalem." [35:11] So, when they are saying these kind of [35:13] things, [35:15] it puts us in in a very different [35:16] position. So, if we're going to have the [35:19] same mechanism with AfD, so we will have [35:22] relationship with AfD. I don't have any [35:24] problem with AfD's vision regarding [35:27] immigration. [35:29] I think that they have every right to [35:32] defend their borders, like a- any other [35:36] state [35:38] in Europe, despite their very tough [35:40] history. [35:41] >> We spoke [35:41] >> I do not exclude Germany from having a [35:44] right to be a German state. [35:47] >> We spoke about Europe, but really we've [35:49] only been talking about Western Europe. [35:51] Where is Israel has a [35:53] completely different set of challenges [35:57] in Eastern Bloc countries, the Baltics, [36:00] Romania, Hungary, where attitudes to the [36:03] Holocaust [36:04] >> Yeah. [36:05] >> really shape bilateral relations, and we [36:07] saw it with the fallout in Poland. It [36:09] was a major blowout over the Polish [36:12] insistence that we don't say [36:15] Polish [36:17] concentration camps, we need to add the [36:19] German qualifier, and so forth. And we [36:22] really we saw Israel losing one of its [36:25] closest allies in the EU over this [36:28] historical debate. And [36:31] I'm curious to [36:32] as to where you stand as a conservative, [36:34] as a proud patriot, as someone who is [36:37] attuned to the historical baggage that [36:40] you as an Israeli leader carry. [36:42] Um do we need to be pragmatic here or do [36:45] we need to insist the way that uh well, [36:48] actually Yair Lapid did? [36:51] >> Well, I think first and foremost, we [36:53] need to be accurate. Okay? So, I think [36:57] when it goes when when you're speaking [36:59] about Poland, the basic claim that [37:01] saying we the Polish people [37:03] we're not in we're not the initiator [37:07] of of of the Holocaust. Yeah, the [37:10] Holocaust was [37:11] created by the Germans. The other one [37:14] who built Auschwitz and the other the [37:17] one who built Majdanek, Treblinka, [37:19] um etc. on Polish soil and Poland was [37:24] occupied. That is true, but it is also [37:26] true that you had [37:28] countless [37:31] pogroms. Okay, Kielce, which was one of [37:34] the most the most famous. [37:35] >> Jedwabne. [37:36] >> Okay, so there are many. And you had [37:39] people who were righteous among the [37:41] nations, [37:42] among the Poles, and you had people who [37:44] were chasing the Jews, who were [37:47] um [37:47] So, I think it's very very sensitive and [37:50] we need to be very very accurate. [37:53] We cannot say there wasn't Kielce. [37:56] Okay? Because it's it's it's easy to [37:59] take it as as a as a case study. [38:01] We will not put aside Kielce. [38:04] We will not. [38:06] But we will also [38:07] I will never say [38:09] that the the Poles are in charge of [38:12] Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka. No, these [38:15] are the Germans. [38:16] Okay? And also, we need to remember the [38:18] collaboration within the Warsaw Ghetto [38:20] Rebellion [38:22] of AZL and Armia Krajowa. [38:25] So, you had collaboration in between [38:28] nationalist uh Polish groups [38:31] and AZL. By the way, the right-wing [38:33] resistance [38:35] movement in the Warsaw Ghetto. [38:38] And you had, by the way, [38:40] doing this fight [38:43] in the circuit of uh Muranowska and [38:46] circuit, that's uh Kika Muranowska. [38:48] >> Mhm. [38:50] >> And Jürgen Stroop, [38:54] the commander of the forces, the Nazi of [38:56] the SS forces, [38:58] um [39:00] to eradicate and eliminate the rebellion [39:03] in the ghetto, he said [39:05] that the battle in Muranowska [39:07] was the most difficult [39:10] and serious battle. [39:12] And in this battle, [39:14] you had the AZL warriors who had They [39:16] bought the weapons and they they [39:18] received the weapons and training from [39:20] the Armia Krajowa. [39:22] And the nationalist uh so, and they [39:25] raised two flags. [39:27] There's a very interesting book, uh Two [39:29] Flags Above the Ghetto, [39:31] by Moshe Harenz. I think it was one of [39:32] the most important books about the [39:34] Holocaust. [39:37] And here you can see a place where you [39:40] have the Polish flag [39:43] and the flag of Israel raised together. [39:47] And this is, I think, something that we [39:48] need to emphasize, [39:51] a collaboration of the Polish [39:53] and the Jewish resistant [39:55] against the German. [39:58] And does it does not mean that we need [40:01] to forget about Kielce. [40:03] Not at all. We also need to remember [40:05] Kielce. [40:06] >> Okay, but let's put Poland aside for a [40:08] second. Lithuania, [40:10] uh about 10 years ago, [40:12] >> Let let's speak about Lithuania. [40:13] Lithuania is super complicated. [40:16] >> decided to prosecute Jewish resistance [40:19] fighters as [40:21] human [40:22] war crime perpetrators because they were [40:25] affiliated with the communists as part [40:27] of a national agenda to to correctly [40:32] vilify and to present the horrors of [40:34] communism. [40:35] >> Mhm. [40:35] >> But to also equate them with Nazism and [40:38] maybe downplay complicity and [40:40] collaboration. The point is, do we go to [40:43] the mat on this? Do we destroy relations [40:46] with Lithuania over issues like this? [40:48] >> Okay. So in Lithuania, [40:50] so you had Vilnius or Vilna, [40:53] yeah? [40:54] And Kaunas, [40:55] Kovno. [40:57] And you have two main sites [41:00] of the Holocaust. [41:02] Um [41:03] one is the forts outside of [41:08] Kovno. [41:09] The forts where [41:11] the Jews were executed. [41:13] >> Seventh and ninth fort, the seventh and [41:16] the ninth. [41:16] >> Yeah. And next to [41:19] Vilnius, you have Ponary. [41:21] It became a big symbol. Tens of [41:23] thousands of Jews were murdered, if I'm [41:25] not mistaken, 75,000 Jews in Ponary. [41:30] And I was there and I was in a tour. [41:34] And the tour was led I was there as a [41:36] minister. [41:38] And there was one thing that I never [41:41] got to hear during the tour. [41:46] Who was [41:48] firing [41:50] the Jews in Ponary and in the forts? [41:54] And those who read the books, they know. [41:56] And by the way, it's if I'm [42:00] Um Zuroff, [42:02] Zuroff. If I'm Zuroff, [42:03] yeah. [42:05] Very important book. [42:07] And [42:10] I knew [42:12] who was executing the Jews at the forts [42:16] and in Ponary, [42:18] not Germans. [42:20] Lithuanians. [42:22] So, should we say And and and they [42:24] didn't say it. So, I think that this is [42:27] not acceptable. [42:29] This is not acceptable. [42:31] Because [42:33] I can accept [42:35] the claim that says [42:38] led by the Poles saying, [42:40] "You cannot accuse us [42:42] in committing the Holocaust where we we [42:44] are the victims, the first victims of [42:46] Nazi Germany, the first country to be [42:48] occupied." [42:50] Okay? And and [42:52] millions of Poles were were murdered [42:54] during during the the war. [42:58] But But in Lithuania, [43:01] to completely ignore the fact that it [43:04] was Ukrainian [43:05] soldiers [43:07] who were committing the atrocities [43:10] and murdering the Jews [43:12] and putting it aside in official sites [43:14] as if it never happened, [43:17] I think that's [43:18] I would say [43:20] it's not just wrong and not true, [43:23] but also for [43:25] for Lithuania, I think, [43:30] I would I would say national [43:33] maturity. [43:35] You need to face [43:38] the fact that you were part of it. [43:40] Okay? We're Instead of going after uh [43:44] partisans who will [43:46] align with the Communist parties. [43:48] >> Good work delineating the red lines. [43:51] >> So, it's it depend on the case study. [43:54] >> Mhm. [43:54] >> And I think we need to be aligned with [43:56] the truth. [43:57] That's that should be [44:00] the most important thing. [44:03] >> Now, in your dealings with counterparts [44:05] in Europe, [44:06] >> Mhm. [44:06] >> um you know, Europeans are famously more [44:08] polite than us. [44:10] Are they also more polite in the way [44:12] that people in your, you know, your [44:15] counterparts in your political [44:17] parallel situation are treated by their [44:20] adversaries? I know that you have been [44:22] subjected to, and your family, to [44:27] horrific [44:29] uh persecution, I would say, in [44:30] Chonaton, the kibbutz where you live. I [44:33] think one of the most extreme cases that [44:35] we've seen in Israel of a politician [44:37] being hounded like that, and that's [44:40] saying something. [44:41] Is it Is it like that also for your [44:43] counterparts, people you've spoken to, [44:45] or is there more [44:47] civil political discourse? Here, are we [44:49] an outlier? [44:53] >> So, first, I'm not an expert on exactly [44:55] what are the methods of the left in [44:59] regarding conservative political members [45:03] in France, [45:04] or the UK. [45:07] In America, you can see it's it's it's [45:09] quite aggressive. [45:11] Um, [45:14] in Europe, [45:16] look, I think it's also pretty bad. [45:18] They're trying to destroy them, okay? [45:21] They're trying to destroy their [45:22] reputation. [45:23] You can take a look at what happened [45:25] with Bardella just a month ago, [45:28] uh with this [45:29] uh ultra-left [45:31] uh communist propaganda magazine who [45:34] founded uh allegedly quotes from [45:38] Bardella when he was 17. We're speaking [45:40] about a journal that the editor of the [45:42] journal was uh [45:44] admires [45:46] the terrorists of Black September who [45:48] murdered 11 sportsmen in the Olympics in [45:51] in Munich. [45:52] >> And the text anti-Semitic allegedly. [45:54] >> Yeah, yeah. So, [45:56] um [45:57] you can see the same methods. I don't [45:59] know exactly regarding the feminists. I [46:01] think that [46:02] the left here in Israel is extremely [46:04] violent, is extremely dangerous. [46:06] Um but basically these are the same [46:10] method worldwide and you can [46:13] you know, they speak a lot. Uh you can [46:15] listen to [46:16] um mainly Hood Barack a podcast and [46:20] YouTube's. [46:21] And he's speaking about the the the [46:23] booklets of of of of communist uh [46:27] mechanism. You can see the same uh [46:29] uh the fist [46:31] the resist uh [46:34] the same kind of logos, the same kind of [46:36] slogans [46:38] the same kind of uh by the way using [46:41] using the um church and the legal system [46:46] to persecute candidates [46:48] with Marine Le Pen, with Donald Trump [46:51] with Bibi Netanyahu. And if you're [46:52] following the the trial now [46:54] and and obviously [46:56] when you are listening and being exposed [47:00] to the fact that you have journalists [47:02] who are collaborating with the police [47:04] against politician and they and then [47:06] they are reporting about it [47:08] um [47:09] when you're learning that the attorney [47:11] general [47:13] was not even aware to the material that [47:15] he was signing on [47:17] didn't even read it [47:20] now it's not [47:21] it does not create the same headlines [47:24] like the moment [47:27] 7 years ago [47:29] when he [47:30] uh [47:31] said that the prime minister is accused [47:35] in uh bribe and [47:38] um [47:39] breaking the the the loyalty of for the [47:41] for the state and he you had it all over [47:43] the headlines [47:45] and now when the truth is coming out [47:49] it's coming out very quiet. [47:50] >> What happened in Khan al-Ahmar? Can you [47:52] walk us through it? [47:53] >> So it's not really Khan al-Ahmar, okay? [47:56] These are people who are coming from [47:58] from from all around the [48:02] um [48:03] north. [48:05] Two years of demon- demonstration [48:08] in front of the house. [48:11] Harassing the kids, harassing the wife, [48:14] uh [48:14] accusing us that we want to we don't [48:17] care about the hostages, or we want to [48:20] create a dictatorship, [48:22] putting signs that I'm collaborating [48:25] with the dictatorship, [48:27] um all over the entrance to the to to [48:30] the community of Hanaton. [48:33] And the worst was [48:35] demonstration not in front of the house, [48:39] but in the near village where the [48:41] schools of my two little children [48:43] uh Noa and Nuli, and they were uh doing [48:47] demonstrations [48:48] in front of their school, [48:50] and they were choosing the hours exactly [48:54] when they were coming out of the little [48:56] bus, [48:57] and when they walk back home. [48:59] So, [49:00] you're not even there. I'm not even [49:02] there. [49:04] It's a different village. It's where the [49:06] school. [49:08] And also in front of the school of my [49:09] wife, [49:10] when where she's working as a [49:12] consultant. [49:13] Every morning with a huge sign of me [49:16] that I am uh I want the hostages to be [49:20] dead. Um [49:22] yeah. [49:23] >> When you walk out to take the trash, say [49:26] hi to the neighbor, [49:27] um does it feel like it used to be? Does [49:30] it feel like your [49:31] >> So, I I mentioned it's it's not really [49:33] the neighbors. From the neighbors within [49:35] the kibbutz, we're speaking about [49:39] five, eight [49:41] people from the kibbutz. [49:43] Um [49:45] so, it's it's a small group from the [49:48] kibbutz. [49:49] Um most of the people are not from the [49:51] kibbutz, and I also I separate the [49:52] demonstration in front of the house, [49:55] which is quite regular in Israel, [49:58] than the demonstrations in front of an [50:01] elementary school [50:02] outside of the kibbutz. Can you That's a [50:04] totally different story. [50:06] >> Did it impact the children at all? [50:07] >> Oh, yeah. [50:08] >> Very much. [50:10] >> Very much. [50:11] >> How? [50:13] >> When you get a phone call from the [50:15] teacher [50:17] and she's saying that the child is um [50:23] puking, okay? [50:25] Um and he's crying, and he's uh [50:28] and his sister is trying to take care of [50:30] him. [50:31] Uh [50:32] and when you ask the child when he's [50:34] coming back home, "Can you tell us what [50:36] happened?" [50:37] Uh and he doesn't want to speak about [50:39] it, and he is he be he becomes very, [50:41] very uh stressed [50:43] when you uh speak about it. [50:45] Uh [50:47] that's a big trauma for the children. [50:50] 100%. [50:51] >> Mhm. [50:53] Um now, I want you to put yourself, if [50:55] you could, in the shoes of a diaspora [50:57] Jew. Shouldn't be difficult to you as as [51:00] we for you as we established. Uh and [51:03] they're [51:04] they're increasingly skeptical about [51:06] Israel. It has a warm place in their [51:08] hearts, of course, but you know, [51:10] grinding propaganda day in day out takes [51:14] its toll, and they're not sure where [51:16] they stand anymore, and slowly but [51:18] surely they drift away. They actually [51:22] don't want to have anything to do with [51:24] it anymore. They wish it would just go [51:27] away. [51:28] What do you tell people in that [51:30] situation, and there are many of them? [51:35] >> Uh [51:38] First, when you look at what's going on [51:40] now in France, [51:42] many Jews [51:46] looking to [51:48] buy homes here in Israel [51:51] to make Aliyah, thousands of Jews. [51:54] There is a shift. [51:57] And [51:58] um [52:00] and the state of Israel [52:03] is a safe haven [52:04] for Jews. [52:06] Now, in places where you [52:10] where it's more convenient [52:13] and it's more easy to assimilate [52:16] and you don't have um [52:21] Jewish strong Jewish education. [52:24] So, yes, [52:26] you might say, "Okay, it's a it's an [52:28] headache. The entire Jewish thing, the [52:30] Zionists, it's a it's a headache. [52:32] It's complicated." [52:34] And then you walk away. [52:37] Um I saw it. I saw it especially in [52:39] North America. [52:42] It also changed after October uh 7th. [52:44] You have the entire October Aliyah Jews. [52:48] We see an increase in signing for uh [52:51] Jewish schools. [52:53] Um [52:55] and [52:57] I think that eventually [52:59] it all go- it it all [53:01] goes back to education. [53:06] If you have [53:07] a strong Jewish identity [53:11] then [53:13] you would never say that you don't care [53:15] about Israel. [53:18] And you can see that the Orthodox [53:20] community is much more connected [53:23] than any other [53:25] community, even if you check the Aliyah [53:28] status. [53:29] Okay? [53:30] And the more you go off [53:35] I'm I need to exclude the Haredis, which [53:38] is a different story regarding the [53:40] Zionist ideology. But the modern [53:43] Orthodox [53:44] community in America [53:46] is largely the most Zionist community. [53:49] Strong Jewish Zionist identity. [53:53] If you don't go [53:54] to Jewish schools, [53:57] okay, you don't get Jewish education. [54:00] Um and outside of the Orthodox [54:03] community, there's a small percentage [54:05] who go to um [54:07] So, [54:09] your connection to the state of Israel [54:11] will naturally be be weaker. So, I think [54:14] it's it's a matter of uh [54:16] it's a matter of education eventually. [54:18] >> Okay. Uh Minister Shikli, thanks so much [54:20] for coming down. [54:22] Is it down Yeah, I think Har Hotzvim is [54:24] about 100 m [54:26] higher than where we are at the JNS [54:28] studio. Wow, that's [54:30] You're the Jerusalem topography expert. [54:32] Thanks for coming down to the to the [54:35] studio and thanks for doing your best to [54:39] negotiate a crucial relationship for [54:41] Israel at one of the most tumultuous [54:44] periods in its history and much success [54:46] in your follow-up mission. [54:48] >> Thank you. [54:49] >> Folks, if you'd like to stay informed [54:51] and get intellectually stimulated by [54:54] leaders of the caliber of Amichai [54:56] Chikli, [54:57] which is a tall order, please like, [54:59] subscribe, follow JNS TV or don't. We're [55:03] also happy taking walkings. Uh over and [55:06] out from Kanaan Lidor here from JNS TV. [55:09] May God watch over you.
