Transcript [00:00] Hi, good day. Welcome to another episode [00:02] of unapologetic. I'm your host Karim and [00:04] I'm really pleased to welcome to the [00:05] show today Franchesca Albanese. [00:07] Francesca, it's good to have you with [00:08] me. Uh I know you've spoken to many of [00:10] my colleagues at Middle East. We've we [00:12] for some reason have never chatted [00:14] before. Um we've missed each other a few [00:16] times. Uh today we're going to be [00:18] discussing u Mlemore [00:21] I believe that's how you say his name. [00:22] I've been butchering it for the last day [00:24] on air. uh Mmore Milliband and the [00:27] thoughts your thoughts around changing [00:29] discourse around Israel. Um so last week [00:32] it was I think a week ago to the day or [00:34] a week and one day ago Ed Milliban [00:36] announced British sanctions limited [00:39] sanctions on various enterprises on and [00:42] entities in the West Bank. Um also since [00:45] then there's been you know this massive [00:47] row involving Ed Sharon and McLemore. Um [00:50] uh Ed Sheran sort of asked Makammore [00:53] after coming under pro corporate [00:54] pressure to leave his tour. Um that was [00:56] the initial news and it was quite [00:58] significant but I think we were all [01:00] surprised last night when other people [01:02] who are going to tour with Ed Sheeran [01:04] his band especially who are going to [01:05] play with him decided that they were [01:07] actually going to stand against Ed [01:08] Sheeran and with with Mammore and with [01:10] Palestine. Um how significant are both [01:13] these things and how are they connected? [01:16] >> I think they are significant in and of [01:18] themselves. they are significant [01:20] together and they um [01:24] in a way they are part of what I call [01:26] the Palestine effect. The the the the [01:29] connecting element is the fact that [01:32] Palestine has revealed [01:35] uh a reality that the people cannot [01:38] ignore anymore and so there is a push [01:40] back. [01:41] >> Okay. So I mean let's let's go to the [01:42] West Bank because of course the there's [01:44] been a lot of noise um and very [01:46] important noise. It's not just noise. I [01:48] think there's been a lot of noise around [01:50] the the Mmore Ed Sheeran thing, but [01:52] we'll we'll get to that later. Let's [01:53] let's begin in the West Bank. Um how [01:55] significant do you think these sanctions [01:57] are? Um do you think I mean there's the [01:59] crit critics of of the sanctions are [02:01] more like this is theater. This is not [02:03] actually going to make a fundamental [02:04] change. If it is the beginning of [02:06] something, it's a very small beginning. [02:07] It's it's a lot it's a little too late. [02:10] Um what's your response to that? Can you [02:12] contextualize for us because you've [02:13] obviously you know you've been looking [02:15] at this long before October 7th. Israel [02:17] is pursuing a policy of erasure which is [02:20] exactly what I said in November in [02:22] October 2024. There is a project of [02:25] collective uh intentional erasure of [02:29] Palestine [02:32] and this is so eventually genocide is [02:34] the annihilation of the right of [02:36] self-determination the possibility of [02:38] these people of the Palestinian people [02:40] to to live as a people in the land that [02:44] remains. This is the reality in the face [02:46] of this. The fact that the UK announces [02:50] a ban of goods from settlements for me [02:55] signals a potentially seismic shift [02:58] because it's been the strongest condemn. [03:00] I mean, if you read the the words used, [03:03] of course, by the foreign secretary, of [03:06] course, they were cushioned by many [03:09] layers of care toward an incredibly [03:14] nervous community which feels threatened [03:16] by the existence of another people. [03:19] Yeah. So if you elude or this then you [03:24] can focus on the fact that this has been [03:26] the strongest condemnation ever issued [03:29] by the UK government embracing an ICJ [03:34] um decision that declares the occupation [03:37] and law unlawful in its entirety and [03:40] start cutting ties with the settlements [03:42] and not just with the goods but also the [03:44] services and the finances connected to [03:47] it. construction, infrastructure, the [03:50] financing and real estate, the [03:52] advertising. I mean, it's barbarian what [03:55] has been done in in Western cities over [03:58] the past two years. from London to um [04:02] Canada cities Montreal and Toronto and [04:06] other places in the US, [04:08] settlers, [04:10] settler connected organizations have [04:13] advertised Palestinian properties before [04:17] even being taken, before even being [04:20] stolen to its uh owners. [04:24] So there there are limits that have been [04:26] added. there is any recognition of the [04:29] commissioner of inquiry findings which [04:32] indicates the intention of the UK to uh [04:35] prosecute investigate and prosecute [04:37] possible war crimes and um and other [04:40] atrocity crimes supporting legal [04:42] processes. Of course it's small and of [04:45] course it's little. Excuse me. I mean [04:48] have we have we live seen the world we [04:51] live in? Have have we seen how Palestine [04:55] has revealed the kind of integration of [04:59] the Israeli political system and [05:02] economic system, financial system into [05:05] our own life in western democracies to [05:08] start with? And do you think that it's [05:10] easy to undo it? I wish I wish the UK [05:14] government had said now let's cut okay [05:16] to do the everything right the UK [05:19] government should cut ties with the with [05:21] Israel because Israel maintains an [05:23] unlawful occupation Israel has killed [05:26] 70,000 people of which the very the very [05:29] Israeli army admits 85% are civilians [05:34] um and Israel is accused of war crimes [05:37] crimes against humanity and genocide [05:38] before the two highest international [05:42] tribunals, the international criminal [05:44] court and international court of [05:45] justice. So of course this should happen [05:49] but [05:52] we have to be realistic. So we need to [05:54] make sure that first of all this is [05:57] recognized I mean the change in foreign [05:59] policy in the UK is recognized as a [06:02] success of civil society. the UK civil [06:05] society. And when I say civil society, I [06:07] not don't just talk of the incredible [06:11] Amnesty International and all the the [06:14] the British Palestinian community and [06:17] all the networks of organizations [06:19] including anti-apartid Jewish groups. [06:22] There's been so much mobilization, [06:24] hundreds of thousands of people. So, uh [06:28] it's been it's been incredible. [06:30] And but have you seen the repression [06:32] that started under under Kar K armor? [06:37] Have you heard the language that someone [06:40] who presents himself as a human rights [06:42] lawyer has used to justify a genocide? [06:45] So this is the starting point and there [06:47] was nothing that would have changed [06:49] this. This was not a spontaneous move [06:52] from the government other than the [06:54] pressure of the civil society. So this [06:56] is the first and foremost there should [06:58] be recognition of the civil society's [07:00] role in this in the second there is an [07:03] opening in the government and you have [07:06] seen the backlash that it has received. [07:08] So this it is to be taken into account [07:10] and in this moment this civil society [07:14] and government should be united and work [07:16] together to build on these uh very late [07:20] and very small moves but moving forward. [07:25] And the other thing is that repression [07:27] against British civil society is not [07:30] undone yet. Um, Palestine action is [07:34] still prescribed and it's pretty [07:36] obnoxious to say the least considering [07:38] that they're being punished to for for [07:42] standing against the company which [07:45] produce weapons that are used [07:48] for for the Israeli unlawful occupation [07:52] in the West back the Gaza Strip and East [07:54] Jerusalem. So this is the reality. Last [07:56] point, [07:58] the M Michael Moore um situation. Look [08:05] what what uh what happened is [08:09] symptomatic of a world where [08:12] billionaires who are who go hand in hand [08:16] with the apartheid with the apartheid [08:19] system that Israel represents which of [08:21] course doesn't represent all Israelis [08:24] but most of is most Israelis however [08:27] that bill those billionaires and the US [08:30] political establishment [08:33] continue to dictate and to limit and to [08:36] shrink the space for democracy which [08:39] includes descent. How come saying free [08:42] Palestine how come freedom of expression [08:45] and solidarity toward the people who's [08:47] being erased [08:49] uh generates sensitivity and nervousness [08:53] among others. Come on here we all need [08:55] to grow some spine. Let's deal with our [08:58] emotion and trauma. There are there is [09:00] something very useful called uh [09:03] psychoanalysis but at the same time we [09:05] need to recognize that there is a [09:06] genocide. So kudos and congratulations [09:09] to Michael Moore to be so [09:12] so human, so normal, so ordinary. What [09:15] what happens is the the the fact that [09:18] his his friend uh was uh I mean bend [09:24] decided to bend and ask him to leave in [09:28] order to and in order to to comply with [09:32] the dictat of someone who wants to cover [09:34] up for Israel's crimes. So the fact that [09:37] there has been a push back and [09:39] solidarity with uh uh with Michael Moore [09:42] shows that the tide has changed and has [09:45] changed and this is the Palestine [09:46] effect. [09:48] >> Okay. Thanks for thanks Franchesca for a [09:49] very very comprehensive answer. Um I [09:51] mean I think you've you've you have [09:52] alluded to you know that this is it's a [09:55] very significant step. We have you've [09:56] given us a good context to understand [09:58] that you know there's a strategy behind [10:00] the fact that you know to move a [10:02] government that was where Kama was and [10:04] before that where you know I mean when [10:05] when this started Rishi Sunk was was in [10:07] charge and and the conservative party [10:08] was in charge so to move that to the [10:10] position they have that's a process and [10:12] a long process and and yes it's it is it [10:14] is you know it's difficult for people [10:16] who've seen and at this point it's many [10:18] people around the world who've seen you [10:20] know the the horrible genocide occurring [10:22] that things move this slowly but it it [10:24] can potentially be be seismic. I want to [10:26] I want to follow that up a bit, but [10:28] before that, I mean, just yesterday, the [10:29] the Secretary of State uh Luis Hey said [10:32] at a at a at a speech that she gave to [10:34] the 2026 Trade Union Congress. Um I [10:38] mean, she said a bunch of things. I'm [10:39] just going to quote a small part. She [10:40] said, "We will no longer stand by while [10:42] innocent Palestinian families are torn [10:44] apart, while innocent children are [10:45] killed in Gaza, and while the hope of a [10:47] two-state solution evaporates before our [10:49] eyes." Now also since uh you know this [10:52] has been announced by Emily Band um uh [10:54] you know a few other nations have have [10:57] actually supported the UK there were [10:59] indications uh from the Trump [11:01] administration before the announcement [11:03] that you know there would be some [11:05] repercussions. We haven't really seen I [11:07] mean Trump has has bumbled around a bit [11:09] and he said something about you know [11:10] maybe Ireland should should seek its [11:12] unity with Northern Ireland which [11:14] obviously the British government uh in [11:16] London wouldn't be happy with but beyond [11:17] that there hasn't really been any any [11:20] yet there hasn't been some sort of you [11:22] know slap on the wrist or something even [11:24] major than that um and then amidst all [11:26] of that you know came this this really [11:28] it's it's not connected to governments [11:30] it's connected to popular sentiment but [11:32] this thing about about McLemore so I [11:36] again um you know where do you think in [11:40] terms of building a strategy now for [11:42] governments to actually do hopefully in [11:44] the long term what they did to South [11:45] Africa where governments say we're [11:47] actually going to sanction you entirely [11:48] we'll stop trading with you entirely how [11:50] far do you think we are from that [11:55] >> look I I cannot I cannot predict I wish [11:59] I had a crystal ball which I don't [12:02] however it's feasible and it's becoming [12:04] more and more evident that it's [12:06] feasible. Um, it's clear I keep on [12:10] saying Palestine is a revealer, right? [12:12] And what does what has Palestine [12:15] revealed [12:17] that we live in a very um in in in in a [12:22] very unequal world where uh the economy [12:27] is dominated by turbo capitalists and [12:30] the polit political realm is dominated [12:33] by a kleptocratic network um where [12:37] corruption is a feature. This is [12:40] something I heard uh it's an argument [12:42] that I find very convincing by an a an a [12:46] US anthropologist who says we tend to [12:49] look at corruption as isolate a series [12:53] of [12:54] isolated episodes. In fact, it's not a [12:59] government or a country or a community [13:03] suffering from corruption. Corruption is [13:06] an integrated network that operates [13:08] vertically and horizontally and [13:10] encompasses transnationally public [13:13] officials, the private sector uh from [13:16] com from the economy to finance um and [13:19] sometimes criminal organizations or [13:21] sometimes uh embedding criminal criminal [13:25] intent um so and it's not even one [13:28] single structure but it's um separate [13:32] spheres that intersect and This is what [13:35] we have seen operating in. This is what [13:38] I have seen and I have documented. have [13:41] said Israel wouldn't be able to maintain [13:43] this occupation if it were not for the [13:46] intersection and and contribution and [13:50] profiting uh from this status quo in [13:53] Palestine [13:55] by [13:57] uh civilian business machinery uh [14:00] surveillance the surveillance system [14:03] construction companies universities [14:05] banks pension funds etc and the military [14:09] industry of course so there is a a [14:11] concentration of power in the in the [14:13] hands of really a few a few billionaires [14:17] because we are talking of hundreds of [14:20] people I mean the 50,000 in the world [14:23] are own three times what half of the [14:27] population the poorest poorest half not [14:30] the richest half but the poorest half of [14:32] the population owns altogether so [14:35] alltogether half of the population owns [14:37] onethird of what is owned by 50,000 [14:40] people. I find it shocking. And so there [14:42] is in this a sort of transnational unity [14:48] uh a community of in and or uh community [14:53] sharing of intent across these [14:57] plutoaucrats [14:58] this this predatory elites as um Amnesty [15:03] International calls them those [15:05] controlling the extractive industry, the [15:08] military industry, the banking and [15:10] finance sector and ultimately the big [15:12] tech. So this is the system. Has the UK [15:16] does the UK and can the UK operate [15:20] outside this? No, the UK is part of it [15:23] because eventually when it comes to [15:25] state and this is why there is such a a [15:28] significant hiatus between uh those in [15:32] power and the people [15:35] is the thing is that those in power [15:37] often respond to this kleptocratic cast [15:41] in the sense those those who have the [15:44] power to influence the economy of a [15:46] country. I keep on insisting and this is [15:49] something I've experienced myself after [15:51] writing the economy of occupation [15:54] economy of genocide report. I was [15:56] punished with sanctions because I dare [15:59] to speak and denounce the system. More [16:01] denounces the system and his concerts [16:03] are his concerts are cancelled. Nurkat [16:07] speaks against the system and gets [16:08] arrested. um Muhammad Khalil gets [16:13] arrested and and kicked out of [16:15] university because of denouncing the [16:17] university cooperation with with Israel. [16:20] So you see the moment you speak out the [16:23] the then you get you get the push back [16:27] because this kleptocratic network is [16:30] getting exposed and popular scrutiny is [16:33] what it fears the most. So all this [16:36] violence is a sign of weakness. The fact [16:39] that I get sanctioned by the US is a [16:42] sign of weakness. And so the fact that a [16:46] university professor like Nura is [16:48] arrested for questioning a system. So I [16:53] don't know we live we we are nos diving [16:56] into the abyss but as the philosopher [17:00] says this is the opportunity to see our [17:05] wings [17:07] forming and and widening while we fall. [17:10] Uh crisis generates opportunities. [17:12] Crisis is the mother of opportunities [17:14] isn't it? So it could be the case. It's [17:17] pushing us. [17:19] this awareness is pushing us into [17:21] action. So the in a nutshell what I [17:26] think the British the British people [17:30] should do should consider doing is [17:32] persevering doing exactly what they've [17:35] done and better and not because states [17:38] are going necessarily to impose [17:40] sanctions tomorrow but because states [17:43] will be forced to impose sanctions and [17:45] meanwhile meanwhile through Palestine [17:48] has shown as a a grammar of financial [17:52] econ economic resistance through the [17:53] BDS. So each why the BDS is so powerful [17:57] and why the BDS is so challenged, why [18:00] Israel and the US and the proaparide [18:02] network, why are they investing so much [18:05] against the BDS hundreds of millions of [18:07] dollars? Why? Because BDS works. Because [18:11] BDS is a philosophy. It's not even an [18:14] organization. It's a philosophy. It's [18:15] something that you can practice on your [18:18] own and you do whatever you can as much [18:22] as you can. You see what to boycott. You [18:26] try to talk to other people. You explain [18:28] the power that all together we have. [18:31] Unity. Unity of the people. Unity of the [18:34] struggle. Persevering. This is what's [18:37] going to take us out of this abyss. [18:40] >> Okay. Francesca, I know you're limited [18:41] for time, so I'm going to ask you the [18:42] final question. Um, and then you can and [18:44] it's I may take a while to ask the [18:46] question, but I mean after that it's [18:47] I'll leave you at at your liberty to [18:49] answer. [18:50] >> Well, as you can see, I take my time [18:52] answering the questions. I'm sorry. [18:53] Never. [18:54] >> No, no, no. I think I think it's great. [18:55] I think it's great. You're actually [18:56] making me You're making my job easier [18:58] because I can ask you less because I ask [19:00] you one thing and you answer four of my [19:01] questions, which is fantastic. And I [19:03] think it's it [19:05] Sorry. I'm ser I'm seriously sorry. It's [19:07] just that I'm sleeping. [19:09] I absolutely am not being sarcastic when [19:11] I say I actually thank you for that. It [19:13] I think it makes for a much better I [19:15] mean it can make for a better viewing [19:16] experience depending on the answers and [19:18] in your case it does. Um so okay fi a [19:21] final question and then I expect quite a [19:23] long answer which is fine. Um but I'm [19:25] I'm I'm leaving it to you because I know [19:26] that you need to go so if you then [19:28] answer for 10 minutes you know that's [19:30] you can't blame me for holding you here [19:32] but I I'll now move into my question. [19:33] Yeah exactly. I'll now move into my [19:35] question. Um, so I mean another thing [19:37] that that's also, you know, in in line [19:39] with public narrative and there's been a [19:41] there's been a split reaction from from [19:43] those who, you know, want to see, you [19:45] know, a more just solution for Palestine [19:48] has been, you know, the Naza uh film, [19:51] Yuval Abraham and Rachel Saw have done [19:54] what I think is an incredibly brave [19:55] film. um they've gone and interviewed an [19:58] like you know people who are anonymous [20:00] but there's basically 24 ex-Israeli or [20:03] current Israeli uh both military and and [20:05] intelligence officers you know about the [20:07] software and and the awful way that the [20:10] soft software has been used to kill [20:12] people in Gaza over the last two and a [20:13] half years and I mean just for those who [20:15] aren't familiar with with the show [20:16] basically it's like I mean what what [20:17] what I've seen because I haven't seen [20:18] the documentary but it got a 25minute [20:20] standing ovation at the Vulbennis Film [20:22] Festival and basically what was [20:23] described it's almost like the way we [20:25] use Google Maps to you know, how [20:27] restaurants are rated or, you know, [20:28] where we need to go or whatever it may [20:30] be. You know, Israelis had had a [20:32] software where they could hover over [20:34] homes or apartment blocks and see that [20:36] if they kill a a combatant or probably [20:39] sometimes they didn't even kill them [20:40] combatant, but they would kill four, [20:42] five, 6, 8, up to 500 people and and the [20:45] testimony of of people who who who [20:47] pulled the trigger or or were close or [20:49] had proximity to pullers triggers being [20:52] pulled, you know, so five the decisions [20:53] were made 500 people should die. so that [20:55] one person who Israel deemed, you know, [20:57] was worthy of being killed could be [20:59] killed. Um, and in fact, I mean, what it [21:01] says is that so there's been a split [21:04] reaction because there is this and and I [21:06] don't think it's a completely [21:07] illegitimate split reaction because, you [21:10] know, it comes from some very, you know, [21:11] important voices uh in the Palestinian [21:14] movement, but also because there is this [21:15] idea that the way white supremacy works, [21:18] and I'm not saying that's how it worked [21:19] here. I think it didn't. But the way [21:21] white supremacy works often and and all [21:23] supremacies work like this is that one [21:25] hand of the body kind of smacks, you [21:27] know, the victim while another says, [21:29] "Hey, hey, don't smack the victim." But [21:30] it's all because the person wants to [21:32] look good. Um, I mean, I'm going to [21:34] quote to you what Dr. Hasbitta who I [21:37] know you know him and respect him very [21:39] much said uh in response to to this you [21:42] know because I mean and this is because [21:44] Yuval obviously is Israeli as is racial [21:46] law and they do operate from [21:48] oppositional privilege even though in my [21:50] opinion they use that privilege you know [21:51] in a very brave way but his response was [21:54] this is colonial grift you make money [21:56] from the slaughter and you make more [21:57] money from the spectacle of contrition [21:59] in both cases you eliminate the victim [22:02] uh Francesca what's what's your take on [22:04] all of this uh What's what's your [22:06] response to that? [22:09] >> That's a very harsh uh judgment. Uh [22:14] look, I I don't know what people expect [22:18] from from the Israelis. Uh do they [22:22] expect them to disappear like this? Um [22:27] I'm I'm an outsider and so I'm really I [22:30] really try to be impartial. [22:32] Um, and I'm very very sensitive to the [22:36] um to the pain, intergenerational pain [22:40] that has been inflicted to the [22:41] Palestinians, the silencing, the [22:43] asymmetry of both power and visibility. [22:47] So I understand all this. I'm not I'm [22:50] not part of it. So I do not have that [22:54] trauma. [22:56] And my question is, what does an Israeli [23:00] who sees the apertide, who sees the [23:02] genocide, who sees the occupation [23:06] um have to do? I I I really think [23:12] that there is so much bitterness that [23:17] comes out toward Yuval, Abraham, and the [23:21] people like him. And it will never be [23:23] enough what they do and what they say. [23:25] This man is devastated and of course [23:28] it's different from the devastation that [23:30] the Palestinians have. But [23:34] I don't know I'm really with Primolv [23:36] when he he used to say the moment the [23:40] enemy [23:41] recognizes your pain and moves toward [23:43] you is no long and and asks for what you [23:46] ask is no longer the enemy. So again, in [23:50] in fairness, I don't think that I [23:52] personally don't think that uh you [23:57] Abraham or people like him do what they [23:59] do just for for the [24:05] for for the glory of being in the [24:08] spotlight. Not at all. Not at all. And I [24:12] feel that I really feel the suffering of [24:14] this of this young man. And I don't know [24:17] the the Richard Zor Richard Zor the [24:20] other filmmaker, but I know you. I've [24:24] known him for for years now over [24:26] exchanges and and I I want to remind [24:30] everyone that it it was him on December [24:34] 2023 who revealed the the use of this [24:39] automated targeting. He what he did what [24:42] he what he built [24:45] for uh NASA NAZA is something that he [24:49] had already exposed in December 2023 and [24:52] I used I know because I used most of it [24:55] and in order and I got deeper onto the [24:58] track that he had uh he had shown and [25:01] and and and opened uh with my own [25:05] inquiry that then led to the anatomy of [25:08] genocide report. [25:11] Uh so again I think it's really the [25:14] wrong attitude. We need to stand [25:16] together. We don't know we don't need [25:18] need to be uh the the anti-apartite [25:23] movement needs to grow and this is not [25:25] the time to deepen divisions. Um I [25:30] understand how Palestinians feel that [25:33] there is more credit to what is said by [25:35] an Israeli than to them. Yes. Yes. It's [25:38] true. More credit is given to what I say [25:43] as an Italian rather than Palestinians. [25:45] Yes, I hate it. But this is the reality. [25:48] But this is why I think that I it's it's [25:51] it's okay. I can go through the hardle [25:54] that that I'm I'm facing because I'm [25:58] using my privilege. My privilege [26:02] trying to make sense of of what I have [26:04] in order for another people not to have [26:06] to lose everything. And I think Yuval is [26:08] doing the same. So it shouldn't be [26:10] bashed for that. I mean I find it [26:12] unfair. This the other element is that [26:16] as I said as I hinted to this before [26:19] these facts were already there. They've [26:21] been there for a long time. People have [26:23] written about that youal himself. I mean [26:25] you imagine going around and convincing [26:29] people to to speak on camera of what [26:32] they have done. Yes they are what were [26:34] criminals. Yes, they they have partaken [26:37] into a genocide. And so how do we get [26:40] out of here? Do we really think that [26:42] there will be a magic tomorrow that that [26:46] erases all of it? No. a a better future [26:49] is to be built and is to be built with a [26:51] lot of sacrifice and and I prefer that [26:55] the world if it needs to listen to the [26:57] to an Israeli listen to Yubal and not to [27:00] Netanyao and or Bengavir and the others [27:04] and their death dead squads. You see [27:06] what I mean? The last point is that um [27:11] look at how Israel and its allies have [27:13] reacted. It's all a problem of image. [27:17] It's all a pro problem of media. A [27:20] communication calculus is never a [27:22] problem. Oh, look, we have been put in [27:24] the to really in front of our [27:27] responsibilities for having killed and [27:30] maimed and made homeless nearly two [27:33] million people altogether. No, the [27:35] question is with Israel's image and [27:37] Israel's sensitivity. [27:39] So this is the reality and in between [27:42] there is a a a hiatus between in the [27:45] civil society and our capacity of [27:48] standing together. Uh which is sad. I [27:52] understand the trauma of of the [27:54] Palestinians. At the same time I [27:58] again it's not that because you are an [28:01] Israeli [28:03] that that you partake in that design. [28:07] This is the humanizing as well. This is [28:09] dehumanization as well. No, we need to [28:11] the lesson from this that I take from [28:14] the genocide is that we need to [28:15] recognize the human in the other. This [28:18] is a lesson for one not to dehumanize [28:21] the Palestinians as they've done for [28:23] generations, but also there are so many [28:25] Palestinians who have taught me we shall [28:28] not hate. And if I learned it, I think [28:30] that this is something this is an [28:32] important lesson for everyone. [28:35] International law is very powerful [28:37] because it leads us out of it. But it's [28:40] not sustainable if it's not accompanied [28:42] by by a sentiment of wisdom and [28:46] compassion. We will have to compromise [28:48] on it and we will have to accept that [28:53] the person representing the the [28:55] privileged one [28:57] is our brother as well or our sister as [29:01] well. I think that this is this is the [29:03] ultimate lesson we might learn from [29:05] this. [29:06] >> Franchesca Albanese, thank you so much [29:08] for your time and uh I hope you have a [29:10] very good day.
