Transcript [00:30] Hey, [00:44] hey, hey. [01:35] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to you [01:38] all. It is such an honor to have you [01:41] here. Thank you so much for joining us [01:43] here at Honest Reporting. We care deeply [01:46] about connecting with our audience, [01:48] that's you, and bringing you the kinds [01:50] of conversations that you will not find [01:53] on mainstream media. And that is of [01:55] course a big part of the problem. Why [01:58] the world feels so insane right now. [02:01] Propaganda is sold as fact by media [02:05] organizations who purport to be [02:07] credible. So conversations like this, [02:10] you being involved here, what honest [02:11] reporting does day in day out. This is [02:14] how we fight back. And today, as you [02:16] saw, our topic originates in Britain. [02:19] But as we all know, the ramifications [02:21] extend well beyond. The copycats are in [02:25] full force. In fact, I am so glad to [02:28] have this opportunity to take a break [02:30] from watching the United Nations [02:32] speeches where apparently now the [02:34] Islamic regime of Iran are the victims [02:36] of terrorism. You cannot make it up. The [02:40] copycats, as I said, are in full force. [02:43] So, what actually happened? On the 8th [02:45] of September, the UK foreign secretary, [02:48] Ed Milliband, stood up in parliament and [02:51] announced a ban on trade with Israeli [02:53] communities in Judea and Samaria. 11 [02:57] other governments joined in, of course. [03:00] He called it an unlawful occupation. [03:04] He used the phrase ethnic cleansing. And [03:07] then this part I know will annoy so many [03:10] of you. He told the House of Commons [03:13] that he speaks quote as a British Jew. [03:18] Meanwhile, the actual chief rabbi of the [03:20] British Jewish community called the [03:22] announcement a dark day for British [03:25] Jews. I know who I believe. And it [03:28] doesn't end there. Of course, it never [03:30] does. Eight days later, eight days, the [03:33] biggest trade union federation in [03:35] Britain, the TU, representing five and a [03:39] half million workers across 48 unions, [03:42] met in Brighton and voted to adopt the [03:44] full BDS platform. Of course, the [03:47] Palestinian-led movement of boycott, [03:49] devestment, and sanctions, not the [03:51] settlements version, which is bad [03:53] enough. The full version, the one that [03:56] targets all of Israel. the one that says [03:59] every Israeli business, every [04:01] institution, every Israeli connection is [04:03] something to shun, to reject, to ban, to [04:07] demonize. [04:09] So tonight, we're going to look at how [04:11] it actually happened, who's paying for [04:13] it, and what it actually means. And as [04:16] usual, we've got exactly the right [04:18] people to break it all down. Justin [04:21] Posentor is the Honest Reporting News [04:24] director. He's edited or written most of [04:26] what HR has published on this in the [04:28] last two weeks. He's phenomenal, [04:30] including a piece on why the E1 tender, [04:33] the thing Milliband claimed as the [04:35] trigger for all of this, is just a [04:37] pretext. Justin, welcome. Great to see [04:39] you. [04:40] >> Thank you very much. [04:42] >> Now, Dr. Mark Goldfeder is CEO and [04:45] director of the National Jewish Advocacy [04:47] Center. He's a lawyer, a rabbi, and a [04:49] legal scholar specializing in [04:51] constitutional, international, and [04:53] religious law. Now, he served on the US [04:56] Holocaust Memorial Museum Council by [04:59] presidential appointment, mind you, and [05:01] he's represented Jewish organizations [05:03] and individuals in some very significant [05:06] legal cases. I was talking to him just [05:08] earlier, and there might be another [05:10] significant legal case on its way. Very [05:13] exciting. He's also published in the [05:15] National Review and the Day of Millie's [05:17] announcement, he got a piece in, laying [05:19] out why American companies who follow [05:21] what Britain is asking could end up in [05:24] serious trouble under US law. Mark, [05:26] welcome. It is such an honor to have [05:27] you. Thank you. [05:29] >> Thanks for having me. [05:30] And Heidi Bram is a writer and [05:32] campaigner in Brighton, the same city [05:34] where the TU just voted, who has spent [05:38] years documenting what British Jewish [05:40] life actually looks like on the [05:42] receiving end of announcements like [05:44] this. It hits harder when you're on the [05:46] ground. Uh she's also a contributor to [05:48] the Jewish Chronicle, the Jewish News [05:51] LBC, and her own Substack. And she's on [05:54] with us tonight to tell us essentially [05:56] the perspective of a British Jew. Uh, [05:58] Heidi, first of all, I'm so sorry. I [06:02] hope you're doing okay. It must be [06:04] horrific for you there like many Jews [06:06] around the world. It's so great to have [06:07] you on. [06:09] >> I just have to correct that I'm not [06:11] actually Jewish, but my husband is [06:14] Jewish and my daughter is Jewish and [06:17] I'm, you know, a part of the Jewish [06:19] community in Brighton. [06:21] >> You're Jewish? [06:22] >> Jewish. That's actually Do you know Do [06:24] you know who else this happened with, [06:26] Heidi? I did a full interview with the [06:29] lead singer of Five for Fighting who is [06:31] phenomenal and I said to him, you know, [06:33] as a Jew, because he's so phenomenal in [06:35] this space, and he said, like you, Erin, [06:37] I'm not Jewish. So, there you go. It [06:40] makes you even more phenomenal. Thank [06:41] you so much for joining us and for your [06:43] voice. You are incredible. [06:47] Justin, let's start with you. This was [06:50] never about peace or helping [06:52] Palestinians, was it? [06:54] >> Uh, no. Uh we responded as we did based [06:59] on what we saw and what we saw was [07:02] discrimination on its face. The UK had [07:05] made a decision and others were joining [07:07] to boycott Jews. This is not about [07:10] boycotting all businesses in a disputed [07:12] territory. That would have been in my [07:15] view misguided, but at least not [07:17] discriminatory. [07:19] This is boycotting just the Jews in the [07:21] West Bank and Jerusalem simply for being [07:24] Jews in the West Bank and Jerusalem. [07:27] And it's not something the UK does in [07:28] all disputed territories. They don't do [07:30] this in North Cyprus or Western Sahara. [07:33] This is designated to one specific [07:36] territory and one specific group of [07:38] people within that territory. [07:41] Uh and we believed at the time and still [07:43] do that this was a dangerous message and [07:45] a dangerous precedent. uh and had the [07:48] press responded as it should have, which [07:50] would have been, in my opinion, [07:52] wall-to-wall coverage of a member of the [07:54] UN Security Council and others taking a [07:57] clearly discriminatory action, we [07:59] wouldn't have needed to devote so much [08:01] time and energy to the issue. [08:04] As it happened, unfortunately, that [08:06] framing was largely absent. Not entirely [08:08] absent, but it certainly wasn't the [08:09] dominant framing. Uh so we decided we [08:12] had to respond in several ways covering [08:15] several themes to ensure people received [08:18] uh the truth. We published six pieces in [08:21] the first 48 hours have done some since [08:23] and of course this uh this webinar as [08:25] well and that's a volume we rarely reach [08:27] on any uh particular story which I think [08:30] just demonstrates how serious we thought [08:31] and still believe this is. [08:34] Justin, just quickly before I go to [08:35] Mark, was the reaction of your your [08:38] readers, your your viewers, your [08:40] listeners similar to yours? Were they as [08:42] up in arms about this? [08:45] >> Uh, at least as up in arms about this as [08:47] we were. We heard from many of our [08:49] people, from our board of directors to [08:50] others who are involved with us, that [08:52] they were simply outraged by this [08:54] action. They saw the same level of [08:56] discrimination that we did. They saw a I [09:00] would say you know used to be more of a [09:02] leading power but still one of the more [09:03] leading powers in the world discriminate [09:05] against Jews just based on where they [09:06] live. Uh and it they found it offensive. [09:10] >> Uh Mark your reaction was strong and [09:13] swift in fact so much so you published a [09:15] piece in the National Review that very [09:17] afternoon. Why? [09:20] >> Um that's a good question. You know when [09:22] Ed Milliban gave his talk um really two [09:26] things happened. So he stood up in [09:28] parliament and he said he said a few [09:30] things. He said that Britain now [09:31] officially considers the whole [09:32] occupation illegal and that Jewish [09:35] settlers are committing ethnic cleansing [09:37] and that Britain will ban goods from [09:38] these settlements and advertising and [09:40] punish anyone who provides materials [09:42] etc. But he opened by saying that he's [09:44] speaking as a proud British Jew and that [09:46] he wholeheartedly opposes BDS. But then [09:49] eight days later, the Trades Union [09:51] Congress, which is the umbrella body for [09:52] Britain's unions, voted at its annual [09:55] congress to support the BDS movement. [09:58] See, what Ed really did was he said, [10:00] "I'm completely against uh BDS." And [10:03] then he gave BDS every single thing that [10:06] he possibly could, including an official [10:08] finding of ethnic lengthing and an [10:09] official trade ban. And eight days [10:11] later, the largest labor federation in [10:13] his country actually adopted the full [10:15] BDS platform, which is exactly what it [10:17] was going to do. And the reason that I [10:19] thought it was important to respond is [10:21] be because, you know, he didn't really [10:24] um put a ban on Israel. He put a ban on [10:27] British businesses in the US and he let [10:30] them deal with it on their own. There's [10:31] a tremendous amount of US legal [10:34] exposure, which I'm happy to get into if [10:35] you'd like. [10:36] >> I would love that, Mark. And we'll get [10:38] on to that in just a moment after I [10:39] bring Heidi in. And I want to talk about [10:41] I mean Congressman Randy Fine went [10:43] straight to X talking about laws that he [10:46] had introduced as well uh when it comes [10:48] to this issue. So really excited to get [10:50] into that. Heidi first though what was [10:52] the reaction of I know you are not one [10:54] of but your community of British Jews. [10:58] >> I mean absolute shock and horror really. [11:01] I mean when the government changed we [11:03] knew things would change but we didn't [11:05] think it would be that bad and and [11:08] suddenly this somebody who purports to [11:11] be a proud British Jew is standing up [11:13] and attacking Jews. So that became quite [11:17] a shocking um situation for most of the [11:20] community at least everybody that I [11:22] spoke to and it had a direct impact I [11:25] believe on the ground because [11:27] immediately we saw license being given [11:30] to anti-semmites to come and attack the [11:33] Jewish community for with a pro [11:36] Palestinian [11:38] uh agenda. So I mean I was outside [11:41] synagogue with my daughter on the Friday [11:44] which was Rashashana Jewish New Year [11:46] literally three days later and a woman [11:49] pulled up in a car and shouted free [11:51] Palestine just because she saw Jews [11:54] standing outside a synagogue and that [11:56] was all she needed for this kind of uh [11:59] reflexive hate. and and we saw for more [12:02] incidents like that across the Jewish [12:05] community in Brighton in the different [12:06] congregations in different spaces and [12:09] and it really became a kind of u uh [12:14] fever pitch issue that we've never seen [12:16] before in Brighton and things are bad [12:18] here and and I will never cover that up. [12:21] We've had a tripling in anti-semitism [12:23] since October 7th, but I have never seen [12:26] so many incidents in such a short space [12:28] of time across the community. [12:31] >> Justin, in your own piece around the [12:33] announcement, you called E1 just another [12:36] pretext and that is of course the [12:37] settlement project that they say [12:39] prompted this that that they using. Can [12:42] you explain what it is, please, and why [12:44] it is just another pretext? [12:47] >> Sure. So E1 [12:49] is a very small strip of land between [12:51] Jerusalem and one of its large suburbs [12:53] called the Malleim which is um [12:55] considered a settlement. Uh it was [12:58] designated part of area C during the [13:00] Oslo Accords which gives Israel both [13:02] security and administrative control of [13:04] the area. Again this was Oslo. This is [13:06] something the Palestinians themselves [13:08] under Yarfat agreed to. [13:11] The initial plans for Israel to build in [13:13] E1 go back to the mid1 1990s when [13:16] Yeetsakin was prime minister. So the the [13:19] notion that this is based on this [13:20] current government or the right wing or [13:22] anything like that doesn't really hold [13:24] water. Uh in every conceivable possible [13:28] final status agreement ever proposed, uh [13:30] E1 remained permanently part of Israel. [13:34] The argument that's made and was made by [13:36] the British and others was that E1 would [13:38] cut the West Bank in two and essentially [13:41] make a Palestinian state impossible. [13:43] This is just not true uh on its face. Uh [13:48] I'm sitting right now in Faraba, Israel, [13:50] which normally wouldn't be that relevant [13:52] to this conversation. Uh except that [13:55] where I'm sitting right now is in a [13:57] place that's often referred to as the [13:59] kind of the narrow waistline of Israel. [14:01] It's the area where is Israel is the [14:03] most narrow between the 1948 armistice [14:05] lines or 1967 lines, whatever you want [14:07] to call them, and the Mediterranean Sea. [14:10] And in fact, where I'm sitting right now [14:14] is a narrower portion of Israel based on [14:16] those borders, the borders of the [14:17] British and others would like to impose [14:19] on Israel than the distance between [14:22] Mallay Dum and the and the Dead Sea, [14:24] which would be the eastern border of of [14:26] the West Bank in any future Palestinian [14:28] state. Uh so the simple fact that the [14:31] British are trying to impose on Israel [14:33] borders that are narrower than borders [14:35] they say will be impossible for a [14:37] Palestinian state really demonstrates [14:39] the kind of hypocrisy of this position [14:42] to to anyone. Um what really happened [14:45] last month uh related to E1 was a tender [14:47] announcement uh towards building a [14:50] portion of the housing that had already [14:51] been approved uh years ago. [14:54] The UK basically seized on an internal [14:58] uh Israeli zoning uh decision and used [15:02] it as their pretext to go after all [15:03] Jewish communities in places they don't [15:05] believe that Jews or Israelis uh should [15:08] live. This has nothing to do with peace. [15:11] It has nothing to do with two states. It [15:13] has nothing to do with Palestinian [15:14] rights. and it had everything to do with [15:16] finding an excuse to enact a [15:19] discriminatory policy that they had been [15:21] hinting at and planning long before [15:23] August. There's plenty of evidence out [15:26] there that they were considering doing [15:27] this well before this announcement on uh [15:30] on E1. The fact that all these other [15:32] countries immediately jumped on board [15:34] within days, that's not how [15:37] international diplomacy works where 11 [15:39] countries just suddenly decide we're [15:41] going to jump on board with a boycott. [15:42] Uh it is very clear that they were [15:44] planning this for some time needed a [15:47] trigger and used E1 as that trigger. [15:51] >> Mark, can I get your thoughts on E1 and [15:53] then more broadly, can you talk about [15:55] the impact on businesses who who might [15:57] be forced to comply with this from the [15:59] UK on their ability to do work in [16:01] America? [16:03] >> The short answer is there's going to be [16:04] literally no effect on E1. There's not [16:06] going to be anything that is built or [16:08] not built because of this. Again, what [16:10] Ed did is really have an effect on [16:12] British companies, not on Israel. And I [16:14] I'll talk about that in a few different [16:16] ways. The first one is the section 999 [16:19] of the federal tax code. In 1976, [16:22] Congress passed a tax law that was aimed [16:24] at the Arab League boycott. It says [16:26] basically that if a company agrees as [16:28] the price of doing business in some [16:30] country to refuse to do business with [16:32] Israel or with Israeli companies, it [16:33] loses its valuable tax benefits and it [16:35] has to report the whole thing to the IRS [16:38] every year. The law has uh three [16:40] exceptions. They're very narrow. [16:42] Basically, you can obey another [16:43] country's rule that says don't bring [16:45] those goods into our country, an import [16:46] rule, or don't ship our goods to that [16:48] country, an export rule. Or if it's a [16:50] boycott, the United States itself has [16:52] blessed. But that's the whole list. [16:53] nothing about loans or insurance or [16:55] advertising or services. So if you put [16:58] Milliban's speech next to it, right, his [17:00] import ban is the only one the exception [17:02] covers. Everything else he announced. [17:04] Action against people who provide [17:05] construction or infrastructure or [17:07] financing, all of that is not included [17:10] um in that in that exception. So they're [17:12] going to be violating um that section of [17:15] the tax code. The sex next one is the [17:17] Commerce Department. Um this is really [17:19] the one that has teeth. the anti-boycott [17:21] Act of 2018 uh and the Commerce [17:24] Department rules under which is 15 CFR [17:26] part 760 those rules cover United States [17:29] persons and that phrase is specifically [17:32] designed to include foreign companies [17:34] that an American company controls in [17:36] fact so if let's say a New York parent [17:39] owns more than half the shares the law [17:41] presumes that it controls its London [17:43] subsidiary right um again a London bank [17:46] right owned by a New York bank is a [17:48] United States person for the purposes of [17:50] this law. So what a United States person [17:53] may not do is refuse to do business with [17:55] Israel or with any business concern [17:58] organized under the laws of Israel or [18:00] with any Israeli national when the [18:02] refusal is because a foreign government [18:04] requires or requests it. Again, the only [18:07] exception is the import rules. What are [18:08] the penalties here that Ed Milliban [18:10] imposed on his own companies? Per [18:12] violation, a civil fine of up to [18:14] $300,000 [18:16] or twice the value of the transaction. [18:18] Again, the pain is not going to be felt [18:19] in E1. It's going to be felt in the [18:20] British companies, plus the loss of [18:22] export privileges, plus criminal [18:24] penalties if there's a willful violation [18:26] um of up to a million dollars for an [18:28] individual, up to 20 years in prison. [18:31] Again, there's a a lot of moving parts [18:32] here that I really don't think they [18:34] consider. And the last thing is the [18:35] states. Um you know, 38 states have laws [18:39] or executive orders or resolutions [18:41] against boycotting Israel. Take a look [18:43] at Florida, for example. Randy Fine [18:45] immediately came out and said that boy [18:47] are they going to pay for this in [18:48] Florida. Florida's works like this. The [18:50] state pension board keeps a list. They [18:52] call the scrutinized companies that [18:54] boycott Israel list. And if you're a [18:56] company on that list or you're a company [18:58] that's engaged in a boycott of Israel, [19:00] you can't bid on or hold a state or [19:03] local government contract of $100,000 or [19:05] more. And by the way, the definition of [19:07] boycott Israel expressly covers refusing [19:10] to deal with people who are doing [19:12] business in Israel or in Israeli [19:14] controlled territories. Now, take a look [19:16] at what Britain has in Florida. British [19:18] companies have more than 88,000 jobs in [19:22] the state of Florida today. The UK is [19:24] the top foreign investor in Florida. [19:27] Florida UK merchandise trade in 2025 was [19:30] $4.1 billion. [19:33] I think I'm pretty sure the governor's [19:35] office had the number at more than 350 [19:37] companies that employ 70,000 people with [19:40] British affiliates holding more than $18 [19:42] billion in Florida. That's a heck of a [19:46] lot for Ed Milliban to put at risk um [19:49] just to pretend that he has some kind of [19:50] moral virtue. [19:52] It's absolutely insane. I didn't realize [19:54] it was that big in Florida alone. So So [19:57] the laws exist. What is the likelihood [20:00] that they will be used, Mark, or they [20:02] can be used in some way to I mean, will [20:05] they be? [20:06] >> The federal laws are ready to go. It's [20:08] really simply a matter of, you know, [20:10] following through and adding Britain to [20:11] the list. I'll be honest, the state [20:13] version is a little bit more interesting [20:15] because of something called preeemption. [20:16] There's a a federal law that says that [20:18] the federal anti-boycott rules override [20:21] the state rules on the same subject. Um, [20:25] so why do I think that the state laws [20:26] could still be applied? For a few [20:28] reasons. First of all, no court has ever [20:29] held that one of these laws was [20:30] preempted. Um, second is they're not [20:33] actually written as rules about [20:35] complying with foreign boycotss, right? [20:36] They're written about the state itself. [20:38] They're written about who the state [20:39] itself will hire and where the state [20:41] itself will invest its own pension [20:44] money. So, they reach a boycott of [20:45] Israel from any source, from a company's [20:47] own policy or from a union's campaign or [20:49] from a foreign statute. And third, [20:51] places like Florida were smart. They [20:52] drafted around that clause on purpose. [20:55] Right? The definition says that the term [20:57] includes trade practices that are [20:59] prohibited by federal regulations that [21:01] are issued in compliance with that [21:03] federal law and does not include trade [21:05] practices that are preempted by federal [21:07] law. So, um I think we're really in the [21:09] clear. [21:10] Justin, what's been the reaction in [21:13] Israel itself and in the region [21:15] specifically targeted a you know reports [21:19] not many not enough of Palestinians [21:22] actually being the people that will be [21:23] hurt most if this goes ahead or if this [21:26] is used. [21:28] >> So the reaction in Israel was pretty [21:30] swift. You saw commentary by the foreign [21:33] minister and prime minister's office and [21:34] others [21:36] >> about this uh in terms of who's actually [21:38] affected by this. It's it's a very good [21:40] point. So it it's first it's as Mark [21:43] said it really is targeted towards [21:45] British companies and you have you can [21:48] look at a piece on our website by Cheryl [21:50] Levi on our a great employee of ours on [21:52] our team uh who laid this out in greater [21:54] detail. But you have an absurd reality [21:56] where a British Arab citizen can legally [21:59] buy an apartment in Jerusalem, but a [22:01] British Jew cannot legally buy an [22:03] apartment a couple of blocks away simply [22:05] because it's in a different neighborhood [22:06] in a in a Jewish neighborhood. And this [22:09] notion of boycotting companies kind of [22:11] over the green line has been tried [22:13] before. This is not new. And the [22:15] greatest victims of the policy were not [22:17] Israeli Jews and it was not the Israeli [22:19] economy. It was Palestinian workers. [22:22] Kind of the crown jewel, the the [22:24] greatest success, if you want to call it [22:25] that, of the uh the BDS boycott movement [22:29] was related to SodaStream. Anyone who's [22:30] not familiar with SodaStream, it's a [22:32] company that makes machines that turn [22:33] water uh carbonate it and turn it into [22:36] soda. [22:37] uh they had a factory uh just a few [22:39] miles east of Jerusalem and the boycott [22:42] movement put uh a lot of pressure on [22:44] them to move. Uh ultimately they decided [22:46] to yield to that pressure and move their [22:48] factory to the negative. Soda Stream [22:51] still exists. They still make the same [22:52] products. Israelis are still employed in [22:55] their factory. The people most affected [22:58] were the 500 Palestinian workers who [22:59] immediately lost their jobs when they [23:01] were forced to move that factory. That [23:04] was the great victory of BDS. It was [23:06] taking 500 Palestinians [23:09] away from jobs that paid them higher [23:10] salaries and greater benefits than [23:12] anything they could find uh in the [23:13] Palestinian Authority. Uh there are over [23:17] 100,000 Palestinians employed by Israeli [23:20] companies, many of them in industrial [23:21] and commercial parks uh across the uh [23:24] the West Bank. They receive Israeli [23:26] salaries. They receive Israeli benefits. [23:29] Uh something that again that they cannot [23:30] receive within the PA economy. the uh [23:33] minimum wage, even if they're making [23:35] just the minimum wage in Israel, is four [23:36] times the average salary uh in the [23:38] Palestinian economy. Uh so if these [23:41] companies are forced to either move or [23:43] close, they will lose those jobs and not [23:45] be able to support their families in the [23:47] same way. So at the end of the day, uh [23:51] don't let anybody tell you this is about [23:53] helping the Palestinians economically, [23:55] politically, their human rights, or [23:56] otherwise. This is a policy intended to [23:59] harm Jews and harm Israel that actually [24:02] harms Palestinians even more and more. [24:04] Uh, and this is no secret, right? [24:06] There's nothing I'm saying is unknown uh [24:08] to the public. The UK government was [24:10] fully aware of this when they made this [24:12] decision as were the French and every [24:14] other country that uh decided to jump on [24:16] board. It just appears that they're [24:19] willing to sacrifice those Palestinians [24:21] livelihoods in the name of their [24:24] discriminary version of what's right. [24:28] Yeah, of course they are. That that's [24:29] that's how they that's how they roll. Uh [24:31] they're willing to sacrifice their own [24:33] people to try and make a political [24:35] point. It's insane. Heidi, can you talk [24:39] to me about so the union and their [24:41] decision 8 days later, how they are tied [24:44] into BDS, the Labor government in the [24:47] UK, what the connections actually are [24:50] and and your viewpoint. [24:53] So the TU has the era of government like [24:57] very strongly. They influence policy. [24:59] They talk to them all the time. It's [25:02] it's a direct line. They have a complete [25:05] direct line to the Labor government. [25:06] They always have. And what's worrying is [25:10] is that the government says Middleban [25:12] says that we reject BDS. We don't agree [25:15] with it. But actually what they're doing [25:17] is is this is kind of a backdoor in for [25:20] BDS. So the BDS movement in the UK will [25:24] then influence the unions and the [25:26] they're very strong in the unions across [25:28] the board and then the unions will [25:30] influence government. So that's the [25:32] worry about this kind of dynamic and [25:34] what Ed Milliban did was give a little [25:37] taster to give permission for the more [25:40] extreme versions of what he is enacting [25:43] which like the others said that it's not [25:45] very effective in practice but it's kind [25:48] of a permission to open the door to [25:50] these wider more extreme versions of [25:53] boycots and and the BDS movement itself [25:57] and it's something that people haven't [25:58] really talked about I don't think a [26:01] is that it's directly connected with [26:03] terrorist groups in like Hamas and [26:06] Palestinian Islamic Jihad and PFLP [26:09] because the the Omar Bgouti is the [26:13] co-founder of BDS movement and he well [26:16] he lives in Israel but you know he's not [26:18] boycotting himself that far but he was [26:21] at the TU conference and he made a [26:24] little video at the end thanking them on [26:26] behalf of an entity which is called the [26:29] Palestinian BDS s uh committee and that [26:33] is based in Ramala and one of the main [26:36] members of that committee is the um [26:40] Palestinian national um and Islamic [26:43] forces which is the biggest member of [26:46] the committee and it includes all those [26:48] terrorist factions and they're very [26:50] proud of bringing all the different [26:53] parts of Palestinian life together and [26:56] they they very um open about it and it's [26:59] on the BDS website very openly. Yet, you [27:03] know, what we're seeing now is that the [27:05] government is, you know, three degrees [27:08] of separation from a mass. [27:12] >> It's normally something that I mean, it [27:14] used to be in recent memory people would [27:17] still try and hide elements of [27:19] connection to terrorism. Now, plenty of [27:22] people wear it like a badge of honor, [27:23] don't they? It's [27:25] >> Yeah. is this is the worry is that it's [27:27] normalizing [27:29] really extreme politics which then opens [27:32] the door to groups like Hamas because [27:34] step by step you get closer and closer [27:36] to the worst parts of this uh movement [27:40] and you know it's it's really scary [27:43] actually the trickle down effect on the [27:45] Jewish community here is that you know [27:47] it may not have any practical effect on [27:50] Israel or the or have a negative effect [27:54] actually on the Palestinians And [27:55] actually we had an Ecostream shop which [27:58] is Soda Stream in Brighton that was then [28:02] focused on by the local BDS people and [28:04] they got it closed down. So it, you [28:07] know, there it's affecting diaspora Jews [28:10] in a in a really scary way because it's [28:13] normalizing [28:14] um these very extreme politics that is [28:18] just kind of a gateway drug to [28:20] destroying Israel. [28:22] >> Really well put. And Mark, if I can [28:24] bring you in on this, cuz you know [28:26] firsthand you you're working with [28:28] communities. I I'd love you to respond [28:30] to that and then also in a more broader [28:32] sense, how how powerful can legal [28:36] warfare be as a way of fighting this [28:38] kind of stuff on behalf of people on the [28:40] ground who are actually paying the price [28:42] for it? [28:44] >> Sure. I mean, you you raised a really [28:45] good point, Heidi, which is that it was [28:46] already 10 years ago that American [28:49] Congress heard testimony from the former [28:52] US Department of the Treasury terrorism [28:54] finance analyst, now head of FDD, [28:55] Jonathan Shanzer, linking the BDS [28:58] movement to actual radical terror groups [29:00] whose mission is the destruction of [29:02] Israel. And since that time, his [29:03] testimony has been confirmed. I think [29:06] records show that last year there were [29:07] still more than 30 actual terrorists [29:09] that held senior positions in BDS [29:11] organizations, at least 20 of whom had [29:14] been imprisoned for violent crimes and [29:16] some of whom still remain active in [29:18] terror groups. So to your question, [29:19] thankfully the legislative response here [29:21] in the United States has been very [29:23] strong and until at least very recently [29:25] very bipartisan. Right? Again, more than [29:27] half the states have antiBBDS bills and [29:29] going back not so far. In their 2016 [29:32] party platforms, both the Republican and [29:34] the Democratic parties included language [29:36] um that disavowed BDS. But some reason [29:38] BDS still remains socially acceptable, [29:40] especially on places like college [29:42] campuses. And the reason that is is [29:45] because it relies on useful idiots. And [29:47] here I'll quote one of my favorite [29:49] people of all time, the former chief [29:51] rabbi of the United Kingdom, Rabbi Lord [29:54] Jonathan Saxs, who explained really how [29:56] anti-semitism works is that in every [29:58] generation it cloaks itself in the most [30:01] noble language. You know, back when Jews [30:04] were a religious group mostly for the [30:06] most part, the Middle Ages, they're [30:08] hated for their religion. And how does [30:10] how do you justify in plight society [30:12] hating somebody? By invoking the highest [30:14] authority of the day, which was the [30:16] church. We don't hate Jews. We just hate [30:18] Christ killers. And then a lot of Jews [30:19] become secularized and the highest most [30:22] important authority of the day is [30:24] science. So we don't hate Jews. We just [30:26] hate race polluters. And you end up with [30:28] the Nerburgg laws, even a trace amount [30:29] of Jewish blood. Nowadays when the [30:32] highest appeal to moral authority is [30:34] using or really abusing the language of [30:36] human rights organizations, you know, we [30:38] don't hate Jews, we just hate apartheid, [30:40] genocide enablers, etc. And you end up [30:42] with BDS which again prays upon the weak [30:44] who don't ask any kinds of questions [30:46] right anti-semitism and this is sums up [30:48] BDS is the great lie that can explain [30:51] everything without ever asking for [30:53] proof. And so the way to defeat the BDS [30:56] movement is really to hold their feet to [30:58] the fire and say show us the proof of [31:00] these allegations. But again, for the [31:02] most part, what makes this um this ban [31:04] really problematic is not the effect [31:06] that it's going to have on the actual [31:08] commerce. And E1 um the goods ban is is [31:12] tiny. You know, Britain's total trade, I [31:14] think, with the Palestinian territories [31:16] and was about 38 million in 2025, 38 [31:19] million pounds. And the trade with the [31:21] rest of Israel proper was about six [31:23] billion. But it matters because um banks [31:27] don't read the statute, right? They're [31:29] not going to ask is it legal. They're [31:31] going to ask is it worth it? And a [31:33] mortgage on an apartment in Jerusalem [31:35] postcode. It's not worth a letter for [31:37] them from the foreign office to decide [31:38] whether that is or is not part of the [31:40] ban. That's why the current chief rabbi [31:42] said exactly this before the [31:44] announcement on August 30th that there's [31:46] a clear danger here. This will spiral [31:48] into a de facto boycott of trade with [31:50] Israel more broadly. And so I'm less [31:53] worried about the actual practical uh [31:55] effects of the speech. I'm more worried [31:56] about um the outcome of the rhetoric [31:59] that Ed Miban is now normalizing. [32:03] >> Justin, if this had been announced as [32:07] policy targeted at anywhere else in the [32:10] world, take your pick. What do you think [32:12] the media coverage and the the reaction [32:15] would have been? [32:18] If there had been a national policy in [32:21] any western country that discriminated [32:24] against a group of people uh based on [32:26] their ethnicity, national origin, sexual [32:29] orientation, name your grouping of [32:31] people other than Jews and in this case [32:35] settlers who have been more or less [32:36] dehumanized by the media repeatedly. [32:39] There would have been it would have been [32:41] the leading story in every major [32:42] newspaper. [32:43] >> If any of the countries that jumped onto [32:45] this or the United States or any other [32:47] country of that ilk had passed any kind [32:49] of explicitly discriminatory legislation [32:51] like this uh there would have been [32:53] outrage until the decision was for there [32:56] was a reversal was forced in the [32:58] decision. I just simply can't imagine if [32:59] there had been a decision like this [33:00] against any other group of people that [33:02] it would not have sparked absolute [33:04] outrage and protests around the world. [33:07] led by Hollywood celebrities, no doubt, [33:10] clamoring to oppose it. Virtue signal [33:14] and the like. Justin, final question to [33:16] you before I go around the panel to to [33:18] get some final thoughts here. Have you [33:21] seen any improvement in reporting from [33:25] an honest perspective, say since October [33:29] 7 to where we are now? And I'm terrified [33:30] of your answer. [33:33] >> Um, you should be uh [33:37] The reporting has not as it relates to [33:39] Israel has not improved since uh October [33:42] 7th. We are going to do a bunch of uh [33:44] stuff on this as we get closer to the [33:46] anniversary in a couple of weeks. [33:49] Uh analyzing the coverage since then, [33:51] but just one thing that we saw on some [33:53] analysis will go into a piece in the [33:55] next couple of days was that the [33:57] coverage on the one-year anniversary was [34:00] actually far worse than the coverage [34:02] before October 7th. So you had a [34:07] scenario where Hamas and and others uh [34:11] invade Israel, perpetrate all the crimes [34:13] that we're all aware that they [34:14] perpetrated on October 7th. [34:17] Maybe in some publications there was [34:19] some sympathy for a couple of weeks, a [34:20] couple of months. They covered the [34:22] hostages a bit. But once Israel took the [34:26] steps it took to retaliate, which any [34:29] country would have taken and in fact I [34:30] think would have taken even more drastic [34:32] uh measures uh than Israel has taken. Uh [34:36] the press largely and again this is not [34:38] I don't want to make a blanket [34:39] statement. I don't want to be attacking [34:40] the press as a whole, but overall press [34:43] coverage in most of the mainstream media [34:44] across the Western world. Uh became more [34:48] hostile to Israel than it was before. [34:52] Part of that may have been editorial [34:54] decision. Part of that may have been [34:55] because they saw their own societies [34:56] reacting uh in such a negative way or at [34:59] least portions of uh their own societies [35:02] whether on college campuses, whether in [35:04] political campaigns. uh the demonization [35:08] of uh of Israel as a nation, the [35:10] demonization of Jews in the diaspora uh [35:13] accelerated in the time since then and [35:15] the press has not kind of lived up to [35:19] the challenge. I kind of started out [35:21] here by saying um had the press done [35:24] their job as it relates to this specific [35:26] issue, we would have not needed to [35:29] respond as vigorously as we did. [35:31] >> Yeah, [35:32] >> I talked about E1. Uh E1 is something [35:34] that the press has used for many years [35:38] um to kind of demonize Israeli policy [35:41] and they do so with that issue the same [35:43] for the same reason they do it with [35:44] others. Uh and that is because they know [35:47] that most of their readers trust them. [35:48] That is the value of a free press is [35:50] that people do trust the press largely. [35:53] Uh and they know that on these issues [35:55] people will not dig deeper to expose the [35:58] lies. [36:00] >> Yeah. Spot on. And Heidi, I want to end [36:02] on you. So, I'll come to you in just a [36:03] second with a lovely story that you [36:05] shared with me earlier. Mark, are you [36:07] able to share your next project at all? [36:10] And I'm asking you, I'm putting you on [36:12] the spot here, but anything you can tell [36:13] us or just your final thoughts if not? [36:16] >> Well, I can tell you that we've already [36:18] opened up a hotline for companies um to [36:21] report that are being asked to violate [36:24] American laws and we've had a few people [36:26] reach out already. So, um [36:28] >> Brilliant. [36:29] >> Yeah. Look, at the end of the day, um, [36:31] if you're a bank in London owned from [36:33] New York, don't listen to the speech. [36:35] Read the statute. Right? Airbnb didn't [36:37] listen and it lasted 5 months. Don't do [36:39] it. Not worth it. [36:40] >> Amazing. Amazing. Uh, Heidi, you had an [36:44] experience and I I like to to end on [36:46] something that gives us hope uh that [36:48] that comforted you. Please share. [36:51] So last night um I was in the center of [36:54] Brighton and I decided to check on some [36:57] posters that had been put up a month [36:59] before and they were uh very nasty [37:02] posters from a local hate group of a [37:06] terrorist a Palestinian terrorist being [37:08] held aloft by a crowd that was armed [37:11] with rifles and such and the slogan [37:14] underneath read victory to the inifada. [37:16] So it was very explicitly a violent [37:20] poster. Um they were put up all over [37:23] town and then all the way up to Hoveve [37:25] and where we used to have our memorial [37:27] to the victims of October 7th and and [37:30] just everywhere and it caused a lot of [37:32] upset and they we complained to the [37:34] council, we complained to the police. [37:36] Weeks went by, nothing was done. I [37:39] complained again, put it on Twitter and [37:42] nothing was done. Um, so I was in town. [37:45] It had been a month and I just thought [37:47] I'd check and it was still there, not [37:48] been touched at all. So I got kind of [37:50] fed up and I decided to remove it [37:53] myself, but I had nothing with me. So I [37:55] just was picking at it with my nails and [37:58] a council worker sort of hovered near [38:01] me, a cleaner, he was cleaning the [38:03] streets and I thought, "Oh, maybe he's [38:05] going to tell me off because I'm making [38:06] a mess on the floor or something." And [38:08] we hadn't really felt much support from [38:10] the council. And then suddenly he just [38:13] starts, you know, cleaning up with me [38:15] and helping. And he gave me some wet [38:18] wipes and those are very effective for [38:19] taking down posters. Just a little tip [38:21] there. And um and so we just started [38:24] scrubbing away together and I told him [38:26] what they were of. And he was horrified [38:30] and had a very human [38:33] normal response. And sometimes when [38:35] we're so deep in these things and we [38:36] feel so gas lit all the time and so [38:39] abandoned that to see a human being [38:43] actually respond with care and horror at [38:46] what we're experiencing was such a new [38:48] experience that you know I got kind of [38:50] giddy about it even though it was just [38:52] such a simple act and we we came [38:54] together and there was a real sense of [38:57] camaraderie and we got it done and we [38:59] took all down the posters and now it's [39:01] all clean and there's no more hate [39:03] there. [39:04] I love that so much and it makes me very [39:06] emotional because I understand what it's [39:08] like. You feel very alone in this space [39:10] and we we can relate. All of us can [39:12] relate to that. But it also says to me [39:14] how low is the bar that I'm sitting here [39:16] with tears in my eyes because a council [39:18] worker helped you remove a terrorist [39:20] posted. That is what we've come to be [39:22] grateful for. But I am grateful for it [39:25] all the same. I'm grateful for all of [39:26] you, Justin, Mark, Heidi. Thank you so [39:29] so much for just being such incredible [39:31] advocates for for the truth, for honesty [39:34] and fighting for what is right in this [39:36] world because that is such a rarity. [39:38] Thank you for your time. Thank you to [39:39] everyone who has tuned in. We're so [39:40] grateful for you and your support of [39:42] honest reporting. It does such a [39:44] phenomenal job. Uh I'm Erin Mullen. [39:46] Thank you so so much for joining us. [39:47] Take care and I can't wait to come back [39:49] with the next one which will be even [39:51] more brilliant than this if possible. [39:53] Take care everyone. Thank you so much.
