Transcript [00:00] Since October 8th, how much has been [00:01] erased from the story? Erased in terms [00:03] of well, first of all, they wear [00:04] civilian clothing, so they erase [00:06] themselves. And the media outlets have, [00:07] and this is one [music] of the biggest, [00:09] I think, patterns of post October 7 [00:11] bias. It's just Hamas cease to exist in [00:13] the minds of most media outlets. And all [00:15] that mattered was [music] Israel's [00:16] response to Hamas. Um, you rarely see [00:19] photos of Hamas fighters. Um, you rarely [00:22] see any indication [music] like in the [00:24] video or or photos or stories that Hamas [00:28] exists or that they've made choices each [00:29] [music] day since October 7th, right? [00:31] Each day they've made a choice over the [00:33] past 3 years not to surrender. Now, why [00:35] is that important? Cuz it means that [00:37] Palestinians in Gaza [music] are forced [00:39] to suffer as a result of their choices. [00:41] And this goes back to framing [00:43] Palestinians [music] as lacking agency. [00:49] Welcome to the Ross Handler Report. I'm [00:52] extremely pleased to have with me Adam [00:54] Levik. He is the UK research manager at [00:57] Camera, which is a vital organization [00:59] that monitors and keeps in check uh [01:02] large sections of the mainstream media [01:04] as well as I think the NGO industry and [01:08] catches them out time after time when [01:10] they exhibit some very serious [01:12] anti-Israel bias in their reporting. [01:14] Now, we're meeting here on October 7th, [01:17] the 3rd anniversary of the worst [01:20] massacre that the Jewish people have [01:22] faced since the Holocaust. So, this is a [01:24] very solemn day. And I think that it's [01:26] right that we're talking about the media [01:28] and the information warfare space [01:31] because at the end of the day, that is [01:32] the eighth arena. We all heard about the [01:34] seven combat arenas that Israel has had [01:36] to face uh over the past 3 years since [01:39] that darkest of days. And Israel has [01:41] made many many strides forward to [01:44] improving its security and strategic [01:46] situation on all seven of those fronts. [01:49] But in the media uh information warfare [01:52] front, that's where Israel continues to [01:54] be battered and absorb blow after blow. [01:56] And so I think it's critical that today [01:58] of all days, we actually turn our [02:00] attention to that space uh with a [02:02] specialist on the media information [02:05] space. So Adam, welcome to the podcast. [02:07] >> Thanks for having me on. [02:08] >> My pleasure. Tell me first of all a [02:10] little bit about camera. What what does [02:12] the acronym stand for? How did this [02:13] organization get going? How did you get [02:15] involved? Let's start with the origins [02:16] of of you and the organization. [02:18] >> Sure. Uh camera stands for the committee [02:20] for accuracy in Middle East Reporting [02:21] and Analysis. It was founded in 1982. [02:24] Interestingly, um around the first [02:26] Lebanon war when right that's when um [02:28] community activists in Boston where the [02:30] organization uh started began to [02:33] recognize that the media which you know [02:35] previously was much more sympathetic [02:37] towards Israel began to ch turn or at [02:40] least that's when it became most [02:41] noticeable because of the war [02:43] >> and um so we've been around since then [02:46] our our mission even though we have many [02:47] departments and the organization has [02:49] grown quite considerably uh is to [02:51] promote accurate reporting about Israel [02:53] in in the international media. Now we [02:55] operate in four languages, English, [02:57] Spanish, Arabic and Hebrew. [02:59] >> Yep. And uh we also have a campus [03:01] department um which is you know a little [03:03] bit different than our media monitoring [03:06] uh focus in that uh the camera on campus [03:08] department um empowers students on [03:10] college campuses to have the facts and [03:13] the confidence to fight back against [03:14] anti-Israel bias to write pro-Israel [03:17] opeds and just to fight back against the [03:19] increasing anti-semitic atmosphere [03:22] especially after October 7th. So that's [03:23] a big part of what we do. We also have a [03:25] Christian department which kind of [03:26] engages both in the Christian media and [03:28] also um within [snorts] the Christian [03:30] churches themselves um to try to fight [03:32] back a tide of anti-Zionist activism [03:34] even sadly within the evangelical [03:36] movement. [03:37] >> And we also have a K- through2 program. [03:39] You might have seen our expose on the [03:41] Philadelphia public school K through 12 [03:43] curriculum which was um had [sighs] [03:46] really disturbing examples of [03:47] anti-semitism and anti-ionist and I [03:49] would say you know uh postc colonial [03:51] ideology [03:52] >> right [03:52] >> and it really got a lot of media [03:54] coverage and um they're actually [03:57] addressing those concerns. So our [03:59] mission is um you know again focused on [04:01] Israel accuracy but we have a very broad [04:04] organization and we try to combat [04:06] anti-Israel bias on all fronts. Um, my [04:09] personal background is that I became [04:11] what I like to describe as a born-again [04:13] Zionist around the second. [04:15] >> Okay. [04:15] >> Now, by born again doesn't mean I wasn't [04:17] Zionist. I grew up in a secular Jewish [04:19] family in Philadelphia. We were [04:20] pro-Israel, but it wasn't a big part of [04:22] our conversation. I never knew anyone [04:23] who made aliyah. Um, you know, we were [04:26] secular, but we celebrated Pesak, you [04:28] know, a typical American Jewish family, [04:30] I guess. And something around the time [04:32] of the Second Tata, I started noticing, [04:34] um, yeah, it was always very political. [04:36] I started noticing that the media was [04:39] covering these gruesome suicide bombing [04:41] attacks um y [04:43] >> uh just horribly inaccurately um and [04:47] framing it around Israel's retaliatory [04:49] um you know and def operation defensive [04:51] shield as some sort of um cruel [04:53] aggressive war and I didn't know enough [04:56] to know why. I just knew it was wrong. [04:58] Right. And I just knew that when I saw [05:00] these horrible images and videos of [05:02] Jewish victims um outside of cafes and [05:04] bus stops and there was so little [05:06] sympathy um within the media and I knew [05:09] something was wrong and I just became I [05:12] wouldn't say overnight um but just I [05:15] needed to change careers. I was working [05:17] in retail management managing coffee [05:19] shops. [05:20] >> That's a big change. [05:21] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um you know professional [05:22] purgatory as I like to say. And uh I [05:26] started I just called the ADL, right? [05:28] That was the only organization that had [05:29] a local branch in Philly, [05:31] >> as far as I know. And I became a [05:34] 35-year-old unpaid intern. [05:36] >> Um [05:36] >> Wow. So uh that was a big change. [05:38] >> Mhm. [05:38] >> And uh eventually they started paying [05:40] me, which was helpful. And uh I just [05:43] became became became more and more [05:46] interested in Israel and Zionism and [05:48] combating anti-ionist lies. And ADL did [05:51] some of that, but they also fought [05:52] grassroots anti-semitism. Yep. [05:54] >> And so, uh, at age 35, I went on my [05:58] first trip to Israel ever, you know, [06:00] through the Judah Jewish Federation. [06:02] And, um, I hadn't been on Birthright. [06:05] And I just had a aha moment that this is [06:07] where my future lies. It was, uh, for [06:09] someone who wasn't religious, it was a [06:11] spiritual moment. We touched [06:12] >> interesting, touched the hotel, touched [06:14] the wall, and, you know, again, I wasn't [06:16] expecting to have that energy. It was [06:18] just like, okay, this is where you're [06:19] meant to live. And that's I get, you [06:20] know, emotional. You think about this. [06:22] It was so unexpected. I didn't grow up [06:24] in that kind of atmosphere. [06:26] So, um, then the economic, uh, recession [06:30] of 2008 happened. So, I was laid off [06:32] from ADL. And so, that was the only [06:34] thing keeping me in America at the time. [06:35] And so, I made Ali in 2009. [06:38] >> Uh, got a job right away with, um, NGO [06:40] Monitor, which is, [snorts] you know, [06:42] I'm still friendly with Gerald Stein [06:44] Steinberg. [06:44] >> Mhm. [06:45] >> And from there, um, I got a call out of [06:47] the blue. I'm going to try to make this [06:49] simple, from this guy that was a mystery [06:50] guy, kind of like Wizard of Oz. He had [06:52] this organization um fighting [06:54] anti-Israel bias at the at the Guardian. [06:56] That was the sole purpose of the [06:57] organization. It was not it was uh [06:59] >> amazing that that that that could keep [07:01] an an organization busy just the [07:03] Guardian, not all the other [07:05] >> right. I had no idea why, but obviously [07:06] I would learn to know why. So I became [07:09] the first full-time employee of this [07:10] organization called CIF Watch. It would [07:13] stand for comments is freewatch, which [07:14] was the online home of the Guardian. [07:17] >> And from my home in Jerusalem, we my [07:19] wife and I were living at uh in [07:20] Jerusalem at the time. uh my wife who I [07:22] met in Israel um I started monitoring [07:25] the guardian 24/7 you know the joke was [07:28] that yes there is a job you can get paid [07:30] well wasn't paid that much but I was [07:31] paid um and thankfully it just kind of [07:35] you know became this kind of project [07:37] that paid the bills until like uh I was [07:40] you know pretty good at it and I like it [07:42] took me it took me a while to understand [07:43] the British scene you know and sure [07:46] eventually I realized I had to um write [07:48] in British English which was a [07:49] transition um and learn some basic [07:53] social cues and history of anti-semitism [07:55] in the UK. But I I became u you know [07:58] proficient and then in 2012 Cameron [08:00] decided that they wanted us to be part [08:03] of them [08:04] >> and obviously we were thrilled that was [08:06] like you know Israeli startup being [08:08] bought by IBM. Right. [08:09] >> Right. Um so yeah so I you know I would [08:12] me and my uh colleague were the UK [08:14] department and now we're up to three [08:17] staff members me and two uh people under [08:20] me who u monitor the BBC and the British [08:22] broadcast media whereas I monitor just [08:25] the online uh British media [08:28] >> and um since October 7th as you're [08:30] anyone you know in our field or anyone [08:33] in Israel would know the content the has [08:36] just been extraordinary to keep up with [08:38] right it's And you know, if there was a [08:41] graph, it would just be a huge huge [08:43] spike that just never stopped. So, you [08:45] know, we're never we have work to do all [08:47] the time, right? [08:48] >> And it's also personal after October [08:50] 7th. I mean, like, you know, I I tried [08:52] to explain this to my nonarely friends [08:54] and [08:55] >> um not to put us on a pedestal, but just [08:57] it really is hard to maintain that [08:59] emotional detachment because what [09:01] happened was so horrific and so soul [09:04] crushing in a lot of ways, right? But [09:05] it's great to wake up in the morning [09:07] each day knowing that I'm fighting back. [09:09] You know, fighting back in the cognitive [09:11] sphere, which is in many ways, you know, [09:13] as important as the physical, you know, [09:16] army. Um, and, you know, I consider [09:19] myself both lucky to be part of camera, [09:21] but also it's stressful because you get [09:23] to see lies after lies after lies, [09:26] omissions, you know, this um phenomenon [09:29] I call as the abuse of October 7th [09:31] memory. you know, framing it as not the [09:33] worst anti-Semitic massacre since the [09:35] Holocaust, but framing it as an Israeli [09:38] genocide, a disgusting liel that I think [09:40] one day will be in the up there with the [09:42] blood label in terms of just it is not [09:44] based on reality whatsoever. [09:45] >> 100%. Yeah. [09:47] >> So, it's very interesting. Um, first of [09:49] all, your description of of how you got [09:51] involved. You know, what's amazing to me [09:53] is, you know, the anti-semites always [09:54] envisage, you know, some global Jewish [09:57] organization that has unlimited [09:58] resources. So maybe, you know, and and [10:01] we do also have anti-semmites responding [10:03] to our content. They should uh listen [10:05] and hear the reality of how dedicated [10:08] and how resource nonrich this struggle [10:12] is. And I assume that at least for most [10:14] of that time, you had absolutely no [10:16] backing from Israel whatsoever from from [10:18] the government. You you guys were [10:20] working independently for most of that [10:21] time. [10:22] >> You mean the original CIF watch? No, [10:24] there was there was like one grant from [10:26] a private organization [10:28] >> and that paid my salary and the rest I [10:30] the rest of the people on this on the [10:32] staff quote unquote were volunteers, [10:33] >> right? So one time one full-time [10:35] employee and there was absolutely no [10:37] government money and nor does camera [10:39] accept government money, [10:40] >> right? So this is the grand conspiracy [10:41] that the anti-semmites want to to draw. [10:44] And on the other side, we actually today [10:46] have a multi-billion dollar Qatari uh [10:48] funded and other state funded uh [10:50] welloiled propaganda machine that starts [10:52] in the Gaza Strip and ends up across the [10:54] world. I'm sure we'll get into that. So [10:56] that's that's one fascinating contrast. [10:58] And another thing that you mentioned, [10:59] the second inifat, I also think that the [11:02] second inifat in many ways is the [11:03] genesis for many of the blood libels [11:06] that we are currently dealing with. I [11:08] remember the Janine Massacre, quote [11:09] unquote, which you know when the truth [11:12] came out and and for those who are [11:13] curious, you should Google the Janine [11:15] massacre and uh the endless false [11:18] reporting that came out during the [11:20] battle of Janine, the second inifada [11:22] when they were talking about thousands [11:24] and then they brought it down to [11:25] hundreds and it ended up being 52 [11:27] casualties from a major IDF anti-h [11:30] counterterrorism operation and most of [11:32] those 52 ended up being Palestinian [11:34] combatants, armed combatants, members of [11:36] terror organizations. So a lot of the [11:38] things that we're dealing with and we [11:39] had the Durban conference in the [11:41] background equating anti Zionism with [11:44] with racism. A lot of the things I think [11:47] were really started back then about 20 [11:49] 25 years ago and now they've sort of [11:51] morphed into these monstrous uh uh [11:54] trends that we're dealing with. So it's [11:55] very interesting for me to hear that [11:57] that you uh identified the problem so [11:59] early on in the second inifada and you [12:03] mentioned postc colonial ideology uh in [12:05] your introduction. Can you tell us a [12:07] little bit about that? What is postc [12:10] colonial ideology and how much of a role [12:11] do you think it plays in the bias that [12:14] you have to systematically deal with day [12:16] after day? [12:17] >> Yeah. Um I'm not first I'm not an [12:18] academic or an intellectual though I [12:20] like the joke that I'm adjacent to those [12:22] two. um to put it very um basically, you [12:26] know, it frames the world into [12:28] um oppressors and oppressed, right? In a [12:31] way that's static, in a way that's [12:32] anti-intellectual, in a way that um [12:34] doesn't involve any contemplation or [12:36] reassessment of those categories, right? [12:38] um you know it it it's one of the [12:41] reasons why um Israel is falsely [12:44] characterized as a um you know settler [12:46] colonialist uh territory um because it [12:50] imagines and this I think goes back to [12:52] Edward say to some degree that [12:54] Palestinians you know were their [12:56] territory was colonized which of course [12:57] you know is just [12:59] >> um so flatly false right I mean like [13:01] what country sent Jews to Palestine no [13:04] in fact they were you know running away [13:05] from uh European and Arab um anti [13:09] and annihilation but but it creates [13:11] these fixed categories. You can call it, [13:13] you know, postcolonialism. You can call [13:15] it neo-Marxism. You could call it Yep. [13:17] Um, lots of, you know, there's a good [13:19] book by a woman named Helen Pluckro [13:21] called cynical theories talk about how [13:22] critical theories plays a part, you [13:24] know. So, within academia, there was [13:26] kind of like the genesis, I would say, [13:28] of these um idea that Jews are [13:31] oppressors, Israeli Jews especially, and [13:34] Palestinians are the oppressed. And um a [13:37] lot of ideas in academia kind of wind [13:39] their way to um you know the mainstream [13:42] media and to like normal discourse, [13:44] right? So um so this idea that Israeli [13:48] Jews are a oppressor um class and [13:52] Palestinians are the oppressed and [13:54] partially that's based on a false [13:56] understanding of color. Right? [13:57] Palestinians are considered people of [13:58] color even though you know you look at [14:00] some of them and some of them are as [14:01] light-skinned as us despite the fact [14:03] that 50% of Israeli Jews um are from [14:06] safhari or misrai background I mean it's [14:09] factually and true but [14:10] >> of course in the kind of racial um [14:12] consciousness of a lot of academics [14:14] especially in America [14:16] >> um that's the way they see the situation [14:19] um so on October 7th and this is [14:21] something that uh a friend of mine [14:23] Shinny Moore wrote really beautifully [14:25] about um there was what he would [14:26] describe describe a um failure of [14:30] cognitive dissonance is when you're [14:31] confronted with information that [14:33] contradicts your priors, your [14:34] intellectual prior, [snorts] [14:36] >> you have one of two decisions to make, [14:38] right? One of two options. You can [14:39] either change your ideas, and I don't [14:41] know about you, but I've changed my [14:43] political views on issues over the years [14:45] based on new information, right? Based [14:47] on um or you can double down on your [14:49] biases, right? because it is hard or [14:51] there's something inside that I think um [14:54] you hold on to an ideology with a death [14:56] grip, right? And I think it takes a lot [14:58] of um character. I think we've all seen [15:01] some people change their minds in a way [15:03] that's been admirable since October 7th [15:05] or before October 7th, right? [15:07] >> But others doubled down. And so I think [15:09] what happened in the Western media is [15:11] they doubled down, right? And as uh [15:13] Shenim Moore said in a really prolific [15:16] and I think should be more widely read [15:18] Wall Street Journal editorial I think on [15:20] October 20th that it inspired greater [15:24] revulsion at the victims meaning those [15:27] disgusting horrible vile images of [15:29] savagery against Jews on October 7th [15:31] which are seared into my head and will [15:32] be till the day I die. um they responded [15:36] by just um doubling down on the rebulion [15:38] at the Jews and they you know I argued [15:41] and I have a post a week after that um [15:43] late October showing that in the [15:45] Guardian [15:46] um as horrible as it is to to think [15:49] about it at the time um a period between [15:52] October [15:54] 14th and the 27th I think there was 11 [15:56] pieces at the Guardian opeds that either [15:59] argued Israel was engaged in or will be [16:01] engaged in uh ethnic cleansing or [16:03] genocide. This is before the IDF land [16:06] invasion. This is before the [16:07] counterattack. [16:08] >> This is just air strikes, [16:11] not even huge ones. Yeah. Pre-planned [16:13] targets, no grand maneuver. The IDF is [16:15] still uh offbalance and and recruiting [16:17] reserves. The country is shocked, [16:20] traumatized. All of the failures are are [16:22] just starting to come to light. And [16:23] already they're setting the scene. [16:25] They're using the word genocide to [16:26] describe something that hasn't even [16:28] happened. [16:28] >> Right. Exactly. So, uh I'm not going to [16:32] say it was coordinated. Now there there [16:33] wasn't big a big big message you know [16:36] you know perially from Moscow right [16:38] there wasn't like you know this wasn't [16:39] like cold war but it does seem [16:41] coordinated though I have to say maybe [16:44] the Muslim Brotherhood the Qataris the [16:47] I'm not saying that they knew that it [16:48] was going to happen but it seems like [16:50] you know when you look at the plaque [16:51] cards and they all have the same signs [16:53] >> interesting [16:54] >> it seems like they were waiting for a [16:56] war to happen not necessarily they knew [16:58] which war or how and and it does look [17:01] coordinated I have to say from this [17:03] Maybe it isn't, but to me it looked like [17:05] it was coordinated, but but please [17:06] continue. [17:07] >> That's an interesting conversation. I [17:08] don't personally spend that much time [17:10] like doing that kind of research, [17:11] although we have an OSEN researcher on [17:13] staff um who uh does examine or has [17:17] examined state influence um you know, [17:19] aren't influence actors. But let's put [17:21] it this way. I tend to assign agency to [17:23] people. So whether or not there was a [17:24] coordinated campaign, what was happening [17:26] at the Guardian was organic, meaning [17:27] that it was fully consistent with their [17:30] ideologies. they were antiionist before [17:32] October 7th, they were horrible before [17:34] October 7th. So um and you know my view [17:37] is that in lie of really good um [17:39] evidence that you know I tend to be [17:42] skeptical of conspiracy theories and [17:43] again there is some good you know uh [17:46] interesting information about SJP and [17:48] how quickly they were to plan their [17:51] messaging. [17:51] >> SJP just for the viewers, students for [17:54] justice for Palestine [17:55] >> and actually have been tied repeatedly [17:57] to the Muslim Brotherhood network and to [17:59] Qatar. So yeah, [18:01] >> right. So I mean there's the activist [18:03] and Qatari element, right? But then [18:05] there's also just western journalists [18:07] and so it's not just the Guardian, [18:08] right? It's the New York Times. It's um [18:12] you know Western outlets um that we [18:14] monitor that are normie outlets meaning [18:17] like you know they're considered they're [18:18] not an Alazer, right? We don't bother [18:20] even though we have an Arabic department [18:22] with Alzer because we don't take them [18:23] seriously. They're not a western male. [18:26] the you know or state organ media organ [18:29] of uh the Qatari regime [18:30] >> right [18:31] >> so again going back to um I think it was [18:35] just um the October 7th reaction in the [18:38] media was just I think an indictment of [18:40] how their anti- Zionist ideology was um [18:43] just so penetrated their sense of reason [18:46] their consciousness um I would even say [18:48] their morality y [snorts] [18:49] >> um that you know they you know we they [18:52] like to say oh you know there was [18:53] sympathy for the Jews [18:55] um at first after October 7th no there [18:57] wasn't I mean you know there was nice [19:00] statements from western leaders from [19:02] from Joe Biden from other western [19:03] leaders but within the media space I [19:06] mean even the financial times which has [19:08] this global presence which is it has a [19:10] very um um unporous payw wall right and [19:12] we have a subscription but like they are [19:14] really um considered to be a top tier [19:17] not just financial but news reporting [19:19] >> yep [19:20] >> I mean they began turning right away [19:21] there was uh their US editor Edward [19:23] loose [19:25] um wrote in a column I think October [19:27] 11th of 2023 effectively saying well [19:31] what happened was horrible but and [19:34] there's the butt. [19:35] >> There's always a butt. [19:36] >> Yeah. And it was essentially and I'm [19:37] paraphrasing because I don't have it in [19:38] front of me. What choice did they have? [19:40] >> Right. Which again goes to um [19:42] >> that's the postcolonial [19:43] >> postcolonial [19:44] >> lens that they view everything through. [19:46] They're the oppressed. [19:47] >> We're the colonial oppressors. What [19:49] choice did they have? And this comes [19:50] back to the idea that they have no [19:52] agency. This is this is the uh I think [19:55] the role the role that they take away. [19:57] You know, Hamas didn't decide to launch [19:59] this. Hamas doesn't want to destroy the [20:01] state of Israel. They're simply poor [20:03] actors in reactive mode and dealing with [20:06] a great injustice. Is that the logic [20:08] that flows through the coverage that you [20:10] see? And and also I would ask [20:12] particularly in British media where [20:14] where you're monitoring, is it worse in [20:16] Britain? Because it used to be that the [20:18] British media was sort of ahead of the [20:20] pack in the worst way, not in a good [20:22] way. But now it seems that the media a [20:24] lot of it has caught up. Do you do you [20:26] view this narrative as being more [20:28] prominent in British media coverage or [20:30] is it now across the board? [20:32] >> I [snorts] I think typically and again [20:34] um I lived in America for 41 years. Um [20:36] although I'd never um systematically [20:38] monitor the American media. We have we [20:39] have researchers who do that. I think [20:41] there's no question that the British [20:42] media was always worse. [20:43] >> Y [20:44] >> um I I would say maybe partially because [20:46] there were so many more Jews and [20:47] evangelical projections in America that [20:49] there was more of a market for you know [20:51] what I'm saying? and more of influence [20:53] in the positive sense of the word [20:54] influence meaning you know their ideas [20:56] are taken seriously [20:58] >> um whereas in the UK I think what Jews [21:01] represent what 1 half of 1% of the the [21:03] population the US it's like 3% maybe 2 [21:05] to 3% that's a big difference [21:08] >> Jews are also much more uh in the fabric [21:12] of American life culturally politically [21:14] I mean there was in the UK I think you [21:17] know there's no equivalent to say a [21:19] [snorts] Jerry Seinfeld meaning like [21:20] there's there's no If you're a Jewish [21:22] comedian in the UK, you're a Jewish [21:23] comedian. Um, you're not you're [21:25] typically not going to get your own [21:26] sitcom. [21:27] >> You think that still is the case today, [21:28] though? Because American Jews said, [21:30] "Well, we thought that was the case and [21:31] now we feel more ostracized than ever [21:34] before." [21:34] >> No, it's complicated. I'm just saying [21:36] one of the structural reasons why it was [21:38] worse in the UK. Um, the question of [21:40] what's happened since October 7th and [21:42] what's happened over the past 10 years [21:44] in America is a separate question. I'm [21:45] just explaining that the the reality on [21:47] the ground you know um [21:49] >> British Jews were of course kicked out [21:51] of of England um you know um I think in [21:54] the 12th century if I'm not mistaken I [21:56] could have gone wrong [21:57] >> and let back I think under Cromwell in [21:59] the 17th century. Jews were never [22:00] expelled from America. I mean it's [22:02] obviously a much younger country but I [22:04] think there's a greater confidence and I [22:06] you know don't think I'm speaking out of [22:08] turn or in a way that would be [22:09] contradicted by most British Jews. a [22:12] greater confidence, right, that you [22:13] know, there was there was a Jewish um [22:16] vice presidential candidate, Joe [22:17] Lieberman. [snorts] Um there were, you [22:19] know, there's been Jew several Jews on [22:21] the Supreme Court. Um you know, so it [22:24] just much more and I'd say even like [22:26] little things like Jewish humor, right? [22:29] Non-Jews will say will will engage in um [22:31] Yiddish language sometimes, right? um [22:34] bagels and you know bagels um Jewish [22:36] food it's just you know in America just [22:38] as a Jew most non-Jews get you don't [22:41] have to code everything in their [22:42] language [22:43] >> 100%. Yeah it's very interesting to hear [22:45] you say that and perhaps this will be [22:46] another podcast in the future because [22:48] what you're describing is the old [22:50] America and it seems to me when I when I [22:52] talk to American Jews that they feel [22:54] that that ground has now been taken away [22:56] from under their feet. So but that's a [22:58] different topic. So, so I agree with you [23:00] that uh traditionally speaking, British [23:02] Jews felt the need to perhaps keep a [23:04] lower profile and they felt more [23:06] vulnerable than American Jews did. Uh [23:09] October 7th probably changed all of [23:11] that. So, uh let's talk about specific [23:14] examples of of media bias. And before we [23:17] get into that, I think it's also [23:18] important to clarify you are not saying [23:20] to media outlets, don't criticize [23:23] Israel. That's not what you're saying, [23:25] right? What what you're saying is be [23:27] accurate. Don't distort, don't promote [23:30] fabrications, don't uh uh promote [23:33] baseless allegations, don't promote uh [23:35] uh uh um propaganda that originates from [23:39] Hamas. We just, by the way, had the IDF [23:41] release the names of 170 combatants, [23:45] members of Hamas, Palestinian Islamic [23:47] Jihad, and smaller allied jihadist [23:49] organizations that Hamas tried to pass [23:52] off as journalists and media personnel. [23:54] And this was swallowed hook, line and [23:57] sinker by a number of prominent western [24:00] media outlets. And they exposed them one [24:02] by one by the name, their organizational [24:04] affiliation. And they did this because [24:06] many of these uh terrorists were [24:08] actually later claimed retroactively by [24:11] Hamas by PI during various publications [24:14] after their deaths. And they, you know, [24:15] they turning around the IDF and saying, [24:17] "Hey, you know, you guys said these were [24:19] media people. You swallowed the lie. Are [24:21] you now going to issue corrections? I [24:23] wouldn't hold my breath. So, what what [24:25] are the trends and examples since [24:27] October 7th that most uh uh uh come to [24:30] your mind? And also clarify if you can [24:33] what you're actually telling these [24:34] organizations in terms of what's [24:35] criticism, what's fair criticism and [24:37] what's uh uh unfounded allegations. [24:40] >> Well, we and I personally believe [24:41] strongly in free speech, right? So, [24:43] we're not trying to deny them the right [24:45] to do whatever they want. I mean, in [24:47] other words, I'm a first amendment US [24:48] guy, right? Like I believe that um I'm [24:52] even personally, this is I'm not [24:53] speaking for camera now, personally [24:54] skeptical of hate speech laws, right? I [24:56] don't know that they necessarily reduce [24:57] hate. [24:58] >> Yep. [24:58] >> Um what we do is simply try to hold them [25:01] to their own editorial standards. Okay. [25:02] So for instance, the BBC, you know, is [25:04] is um commissioned by a royal charter, [25:06] right? And they are [snorts] funded by [25:07] the licensed fee paying British public. [25:10] >> So there's nothing like that in America, [25:11] right? There's PBS which is miniature a [25:13] tiny little right. The BBC it broadcasts [25:16] over 40 languages, right? they're [25:18] enormous and their impact is enormous [25:19] and people also assume if it comes from [25:21] the BBC that it's accurate. So there are [25:23] editorial guidelines that they are um [25:25] promised their tax um their license fee [25:27] paying public to abide by and you know [25:30] that obviously it's accuracy. So I would [25:33] say we have more leverage. We using the [25:35] collective we um my colleague um Leia [25:38] Benos who um does nothing each day other [25:40] than u monitor the BBC in English and we [25:42] have um a colleague in the Arabic [25:44] department which monitors them in Arabic [25:46] and has gotten really some good um [25:49] returns in terms of corrections like [25:51] hundreds of corrections of BBC Arabic. [25:53] Okay, which means that they were they're [25:54] worse than BBC English, meaning that [25:56] they were some errors and that they were [25:59] even they couldn't defend because they [26:00] were so clearly in other words and they [26:03] claimed to be on the same in the same [26:05] editorial standard level as their [26:06] English department as the English is the [26:08] Arabic was much worse and there was no [26:10] one keeping an eye on them so we started [26:12] keeping an eye on them. [26:13] >> Interesting. [26:13] >> Yeah. [26:14] >> Is corrections is that is is that the [26:16] criteria that you measure your success [26:18] by? How how does it work? [26:20] >> It's one of them. Okay. So it's not the [26:22] correction for the correction itself. It [26:24] means that the media outlet is going to [26:25] be less likely to commit the same error [26:27] a second time because essentially we've [26:28] set a standard. We we put on the record [26:30] and they have admitted if they made a [26:32] correction that this is incorrect. So [26:34] for instance um this is just one example [26:36] but um up until our Arabic department [26:39] started really um pushing at BBC Arabic [26:42] they would call stero and other Israeli [26:44] Gaza envelope communities settlements [26:46] the Arabic word for settlement. So I [26:49] don't know how many corrections we got [26:51] on that, but that's one of those things [26:52] that just delegitimizes Israel, right? [26:54] The entire uh country even pre um 67 is [26:58] a settlement. [27:00] >> So that's an example of something that [27:02] they won't do again because they had to [27:04] make so many corrections, right? Um and [27:06] so so it's kind of not again it's one [27:09] metric and you'll see us on social media [27:11] um promoting how many corrections we get [27:13] each month and each year and it's [27:14] impressive but even a guardian when you [27:17] get them to correct and it's so hard to [27:18] get them to correct. It's like it's a [27:20] reader's editor and it's on their log [27:24] and so it's harder for them to commit [27:26] the same error the next time. [27:27] >> Interesting. Interesting. So, um, and [27:30] also it's just when they know that we're [27:32] hovering over every word, um, broadcast [27:34] or in print, they're more careful. I [27:37] mean, there's, you know, there's certain [27:38] things we can quantify like corrections. [27:40] We can't quantify, but I know because [27:41] I've been doing this for 16 years that [27:43] they're more careful because they know [27:45] that we're watching them and they don't [27:46] want to be named and shamed necessarily. [27:48] Um, having said that, like I'm still [27:50] cynical in the sense that um, we're [27:52] never going to get to a point where [27:54] okay, like you know, camera can go out [27:55] of business because you know they were [27:58] covering Israel so fairly, [27:59] >> right? [28:00] >> But you know, look, life is a battle, [28:02] right? And you have victories and you [28:03] have defeats. And I would say that our [28:06] goal should be to not lose. Um, in other [28:09] words, rather than to win because I [28:11] think some people have this idea that [28:13] there's a silver bullet theory. If we [28:14] only do A, B, or C, then we'll win the [28:17] battle. Well, you know, chances are if [28:19] it's ever been done, there's a good [28:21] reason why it's never been done, right? [28:22] I'm an anti-magic bullet guy. [snorts] [28:25] Um, but um, you know, life is full of [28:27] choices, right? So, we choose to fight [28:29] back because we think it makes an impact [28:30] and because we think Jewish lives are in [28:33] stake. I think the media disinformation [28:35] about Israel and about Jews post October [28:36] 7th had put Jews in in harm. the [28:39] anti-semitic and tsunami in the US and [28:42] the UK and other European countries [28:44] >> I think was partially fueled by um [28:48] anti-Israel media coverage and again not [28:50] to take the agency away from the [28:51] anti-semitis because ultimately they're [28:53] responsible but there's no question I [28:55] think there's a poll by an organization [28:57] you may have heard of called campaign [28:59] against anti-semitism [29:00] that showed that like 80 some% of [29:02] British Jews agree that anti-Israel [29:05] media bias fuels anti-semitism in [29:07] Britain so I don't I think that's uh [29:09] controversial, but it's nice that it's [29:11] quantified. So, we're we're trying to [29:13] pro protect Jews um by virtue of the [29:17] fact that we're trying to get media [29:20] outlets to avoid at least the most gross [29:21] liables. [29:22] >> Right. Right. And uh it's interesting [29:24] that you mentioned that you feel that [29:26] once they've been corrected and they [29:28] have to log it, they will be more [29:29] reluctant to repeat the same mistake. Is [29:32] that also true of, for example, The [29:33] Guardian? They just sponsored NAZA, uh, [29:37] uh, the, you know, the false fake news [29:40] documentary, which I actually dedicated [29:42] no fewer than three separate, uh, [29:45] podcast episodes, uh, to debunking, uh, [29:47] from start to finish. Um, but The [29:49] Guardian essentially uh, sponsored that [29:51] and paid for it and produced it. Um, so [29:54] they seem to be, you know, continuing [29:56] and maybe getting a little more [29:57] sophisticated, cooperating with far [29:59] leftwing Israeli elements that are, you [30:02] know, they can use as a sort of fig leaf [30:04] saying, "Hey, look, it's not us, it's [30:05] you guys saying that." Do you see them [30:07] changing tactics? What what's the latest [30:09] now in terms of this media battle? [30:11] >> Look, look, let me just pivot from my uh [30:15] point about the value of corrections to [30:17] the Guardian is a suspensionist and [30:19] anti-semitic bias. like you we're just [30:22] trying to stem the the flow. I mean, [30:24] other words, you know, we can only do so [30:26] much. [30:26] >> Sure. [30:27] >> But I mean, so while I still while we [30:29] still continue as an organization and me [30:31] personally to think that it's useful to [30:33] maintain relationships with the [30:34] guardian, right, to try to um get them [30:38] to acknowledge when they make factual [30:39] mistakes, like we're under no illusions. [30:41] I mean, they have gotten worse since [30:42] 27th. Okay. Um, by the value of [30:45] corrections, I mean, for instance, like [30:47] there was a piece um, uh, about [30:50] Jerusalem that omitted that the Temple [30:52] Mount was even a Jewish holy place, not [30:55] not even the fact that it was the [30:56] holiest Jew Jewish place. Um, and we we [31:00] thought that that was a attack on Jewish [31:03] identity itself. So, um, third party, [31:06] not us, um, someone, um, complained to [31:08] the readers editor and they edited the [31:11] piece, which is still horribly offensive [31:13] and horribly biased, but it did add in [31:15] there the Temple Mount is the Juda's [31:17] holiest site. Um, so again, it's not [31:19] like we're not earthshattering, we're [31:22] not changing their universe, but it's [31:24] still important to do two things at the [31:25] same time, right? to contact them when [31:28] we think that there is a good case, a [31:30] meritorious case that they should make a [31:31] correction because you know less lies [31:33] are better than more lies. [31:35] >> At the same time, the Guardian is a home [31:37] of anti-Israel bias probably in the [31:39] West. I don't think there's any [31:40] mainstream English language or news [31:42] organization that's as bad as them. And [31:44] that's [31:45] >> interesting, [31:46] >> including like, you know, some of the [31:47] ones in the US that you can think of. [31:49] They are in fact their editor-inchief um [31:52] Katherine Viner [31:53] >> co-wrote a play I think in the early mid [31:56] 2000s called My Name is Rachel Cury. I [31:59] remember that. [31:59] >> Yeah. Which as you know, you know, um [32:01] defames Israel with the claim that they [32:03] intentionally murdered this um [32:04] international solidarity movement [32:06] activist when in fact it was an [32:07] accident. In fact, she should never have [32:08] been in this war zone. And what happened [32:10] to her was a horrible tragedy and I can [32:11] only imagine as a parent what it's like [32:13] to her parents. But it was the ISM who [32:16] put her in this [32:17] >> in front of a D9 bulldozer. [32:18] >> Yes. Exactly. So the fact that the [32:21] editor-inchief of this news organization [32:24] essentially was a pro Palestine [32:25] activist. I mean they're not, you know, [32:28] and whoever hiding it. [32:29] >> They're not hiding it, right? Um [32:31] although they they are occasionally [32:33] sensitive to serious allegations of [32:36] anti-semitism. Sometimes, you know, if [32:38] we can get the say the Jewish Chronicle [32:41] or the Jewish News or the Telegraph to [32:44] pay attention and cover them, then they [32:46] feel kind of on the defensive. So, I'd [32:49] rather Yeah. So, let's go this way. I [32:52] don't think they're concerned about [32:53] anti-semitism as an organization. [32:55] They're concerned about the perception [32:56] of anti. [32:57] >> Interesting. Very interesting [32:58] distinguishment there. [32:59] >> Yeah. What would you advise our viewers, [33:03] Jews and non-Jews alike, all you know, [33:05] friends of Israel, and uh are really [33:07] disturbed by the ongoing uh demonization [33:10] of Israel's self-defense efforts, of [33:12] Israel as a state, of of Jews who who [33:14] support the state of Israel very [33:16] naturally? What would you advise them to [33:18] do? Should they engage in in in email [33:20] writing to editors? Uh or is it a waste [33:23] of time? Should they contact you? What [33:25] would you advise sort of the average [33:27] person who doesn't deal with this on a [33:29] daily basis, knows that there's [33:30] something horribly wrong, feels [33:32] overwhelmed, you know, feels like it's [33:33] an avalanche of of misinformation and [33:36] they don't really know what to do. [33:38] >> Look, we um operate with uh alongside [33:42] with tens of thousands of u members. um [33:45] meaning that we have people that are [33:47] signed up and who receive our email list [33:49] who engage in um you know oldfashioned [33:51] letterw writing meaning you know email [33:53] when they come across something uh [33:55] that's um inaccurate. So we promote [33:58] grassroots activism. So if you want to [33:59] be a grassroots activism contact camera [34:02] go on our social media sites. We have a [34:04] much more much more robust social media [34:06] presence over the past couple years even [34:08] um you know we're on Instagram we're on [34:09] even Tik Tok we're on Facebook we're on [34:11] X and we're on LinkedIn. So the answer [34:14] is if you want to be a grassroots [34:16] activist, you have a full-time job, you [34:18] know, just simply how about follow us on [34:20] our social media. Ken, I mean, I had [34:22] people tell me that simply retweeting [34:24] us, you know, reposting us on X gave her [34:26] a sense of satisfaction, you know, [34:27] because at least you're doing something, [34:29] you know. Um for those even more [34:31] interested in getting involved, they [34:33] could also um contact us and um they [34:35] could uh apply to become one of our uh [34:38] letter writers, meaning there's not a [34:40] coordinated campaign as some would [34:41] think, but you know, we provide [34:43] information to our letter writers and [34:44] then it's up to them to decide how to [34:46] disseminate that information. Um we arm [34:48] people with facts. Um however, also we [34:51] also name and shame, right? And then [34:53] it's this dual strategy. Um sometimes we [34:56] might suggest uh promote on our social [34:58] media channels that just you know hold [35:00] this media um outlet to account for [35:03] engaging in you know the abuse of [35:05] October 7th memory in promoting an [35:07] anti-semitic stereotype. Yeah. [35:08] >> So it's a combination of name and shame [35:10] and also um positive communication with [35:13] outlets. [35:14] >> Interesting. [35:14] >> Um to try to get them to hold them [35:16] accountable to the facts. So I think you [35:17] can do both and that's what we encourage [35:19] our uh supporters to do. [35:21] >> Interesting. Now, you mentioned earlier [35:22] that you do maintain communications with [35:24] these outlets. That interests me. What [35:26] does that look like? I'm sure that they [35:28] don't want to hear from you and yet if [35:30] they're responding to you in some [35:31] occasions, then they feel obviously feel [35:33] the need to do so. What is what does [35:35] that communications look like? And and [35:36] what's the goal of it? [35:38] >> Well, again, the goal is that to [35:40] maintain a channel of communications is [35:42] better than not, right? Um and the fact [35:45] that we're able to maintain those [35:47] channels of communication means two [35:48] things. It means that they take us [35:49] seriously that they you know that they [35:51] don't want to be named and shamed [35:52] necessarily right so again it may not be [35:55] from a virtuous or even a professional [35:57] ethics or professional journalistic [35:58] ethics standard although some are I mean [36:01] there are some journalists out there [36:02] that clearly um you know try to abide by [36:05] professional standards of ethics but [36:07] again some of them just don't want to be [36:08] named and shamed so they feel well if [36:10] they respond to us um honestly or at [36:13] least somewhat honestly that they'll be [36:15] less likely to be named and shamed and [36:16] we maintain that relationship by being [36:18] cordial, by being professional. You [36:20] know, we don't, you know, you know, [36:21] we're not that angry person who says, [36:24] you know, uh, you know, just hurls abuse [36:27] at them. We're we're always polite, [36:29] professional. We engage in [36:30] >> I think that's important. [36:31] >> Yeah. [36:32] >> Because people get very emotional. This [36:34] is a very emotional and charged topic [36:36] and it's easy to sort of hurl curses and [36:41] to you know [36:43] release the frustration in ways that are [36:46] not are not necessarily professional. So [36:48] I think that's a very important point [36:49] and that probably is what enables some [36:51] of the communications to occur in good [36:53] faith. I'm I'm actually pleasantly [36:54] surprised to hear that that's happening [36:56] because I may have suspected that some [36:59] of these outlets are too far gone to [37:00] even do that. Uh so I'm I'm pleased to [37:03] hear that. Let me ask you a question [37:05] about social media because there's a [37:06] very interesting relationship between [37:08] the mainstream media and social media [37:10] and uh one feeds the other and sometimes [37:12] it's coming from the mainstream media [37:14] and it seems to be fueling a lot of the [37:16] social media post and sometimes it's the [37:18] other way around. We know that [37:19] journalists spend far too much time on [37:22] social media instead of talking to [37:24] sources or being in the field. [37:26] >> Um what's your take on that? the [37:28] ecosystem here of social media which is [37:31] filled with bots. Many of them are [37:33] suspicious uh you know promoting some of [37:36] the worst and unfounded allegations I've [37:39] I've seen ever uh in recent years [37:42] especially since October 7th. How do you [37:44] view the whole social media sphere in [37:45] terms of this battle? I'll answer it too [37:47] is first of all we do have a um social [37:50] media department and right you're [37:51] welcome if you want to speak to LA [37:53] Chevson who is a social media manager [37:56] and um that they use some tools and um [37:59] they have techniques that you know I [38:01] don't um know the details of that are [38:02] kind of like you know next level that [38:04] are you know they're able to quantify [38:05] the question you just you just posed [38:07] >> um about bots in terms of the influence [38:09] in terms of how to respond um but I will [38:11] say this I think social media I'm [38:13] addicted to X personally um not so much [38:16] on Instagram And certainly I don't I've [38:17] never been on TikTok. Um but I'm an X [38:19] guy, right? And I think what X does is [38:22] create the um illusion of consensus. [38:25] >> What they call echo chambers. [38:26] >> Echo chamber. Yeah. But um you know Nam [38:29] Chomsky uh his book was manufacturing [38:32] consent. I would describe this as [38:33] manufacturing consensus. [38:35] >> Interesting. [38:35] >> Yes. So journalists who were on X, [38:38] right? And if you follow the same people [38:40] on X um or people with the same views, [38:43] you're going to think that there's [38:44] nothing controversial about accusing [38:45] Israel of genocide because everybody [38:48] says it, right? Um there was that famous [38:51] uh political anecdote. I'm forgetting [38:53] the details, but I'm so surprised that [38:56] this candidate became president is all [38:58] of my friends voted against him or her. [38:59] Right? In other words, so if you're in a [39:01] bubble, [39:02] >> right? [39:02] >> Um and I think social media what it [39:04] does, it really stratifies people within [39:06] certain tribes, right? political tribes, [39:08] ideological tribes. So, you know, [39:10] someone like Jeremy Bowen, um the [39:12] international editor, former foreign [39:14] editor, former former Middle East editor [39:15] of the BBC, I think we see so many [39:18] accolades on social media from people [39:19] that are anti-Israel. Yeah. [39:21] >> That he sees us, meaning those who were [39:23] pro- Israel and I would say protruuth as [39:25] the outliers. So, it kind of, you know, [39:28] there's very little on social media. If [39:30] you if you want to diversify the people [39:32] that you follow, you can. I think some [39:34] do. There are some examples, but I think [39:36] it just reinforces to people that have [39:39] been covering the conflict the same way [39:41] that they're right. And that's kind of [39:42] really dangerous. And so we try to fight [39:45] back as best we can with, you know, [39:46] replies and original posts and videos. [39:49] You we've really um built up our video [39:52] um catalog a lot. So um short videos on [39:55] social media, longer ones on YouTube, [39:57] and people obviously for obvious reasons [39:59] tend to be more attracted to that than [40:01] long posts. Now long post of which I [40:04] write take a lot longer and they're the [40:06] bulk of cameras work because you know [40:08] you can't um post something that's not [40:11] accurate right so social media I would [40:12] say relies on researchers for the um for [40:16] the inner workings you know for the for [40:18] the details right for the research right [40:20] >> so once they know the the facts then [40:22] they can promote um messages on social [40:24] media that are factually accurate so [40:26] it's a great working relationship [40:28] between our social media department and [40:29] our research department [40:30] >> very interesting thing. Uh let's return [40:33] uh briefly to the British media scene. [40:35] Uh we are now marking 3 years since [40:37] October 7th. Have you seen anything in [40:40] recent days over the past week uh in [40:43] terms of how they're covering this this [40:47] moment 3 years since um Israel uh on the [40:50] military front has made really really [40:52] significant achievements. Hamas is a [40:54] shadow of its former self. It can no [40:56] longer launch you know mass mass raids [40:59] against the Gaza envelope. It's been a [41:01] year since the last rocket on the Gaza [41:03] envelope. Do you see any attention [41:05] whatsoever about the security situation [41:08] of the Israeli south in the British [41:10] media or are they continuing to focus [41:12] purely on on on the Gaza Strip and the [41:15] situation there? Are they continuing to [41:17] promote the idea that Gazins are being [41:19] attacked by the IDF and sort of removing [41:22] Hamas, you know, the invisible enemy [41:24] from the story? Do you see any change or [41:26] is it all just continuing down the same [41:28] momentum that we've seen? not the past [41:30] three years but actually much longer [41:32] than that as we've been saying [41:33] >> it's continuing to have the same [41:34] momentum um it's as if you know and this [41:36] is something that uh to go back to [41:37] October 7th since October 8th how much [41:39] has been erased from the story um erased [41:42] in terms of first of all they wear [41:43] civilian clothing right so they erase [41:46] themselves and the media outlets have [41:47] and this is one of the biggest I think [41:49] patterns of post bias it's just Hamas [41:53] ceased to exist um in the minds of most [41:55] media outlets and all that mattered was [41:57] Israel's response to Hamas um You rarely [41:59] see photos of Hamas fighters. Um you [42:02] rarely see [42:03] >> um any indication like in the video or [42:06] or photos or stories um that Hamas [42:10] exists or that they've made choices each [42:11] day since October 7th, right? Each day [42:14] they've made a choice over the past 3 [42:15] years not to surrender. Now, why is that [42:18] important? Because it means that [42:19] Palestinians in Gaza are forced to [42:21] suffer as a result of their choices. [42:24] Right. And this goes back to framing [42:26] Palestinians as lacking agency. Yep. [42:28] >> Um, so the answer to your question is [42:31] I've seen no trend towards focusing on [42:35] Israeli victims of the south, Israeli [42:37] towns in the south. Um, in fact, there [42:39] was one outlet this morning, which you [42:42] know, I don't cover the wire service, [42:44] but I'll just say on a wire service that [42:46] framed October 7th as a day that [42:48] Israelis are commemorating, but which [42:50] but it also framed it as Israelis still [42:53] aren't able to empathize with [42:55] Palestinians. They can't even give us a [42:58] day to commemorate the worst [43:00] anti-semitic cat atrocity since the [43:02] Holocaust. And [43:03] >> right, [43:04] >> they can't even try to get into the [43:05] Israeli assault to know just [sighs] how [43:08] that impacted us personally, how [43:10] impacted that's how that trauma impacted [43:12] us as a nation. Um, you know, I'll [43:14] personally never be the same, right? I [43:15] mean, there's um I don't know any [43:18] Israeli who will be the same after 7, [43:20] but they still, [43:21] >> again, I think we may post about this [43:24] later. Um, they still have this [43:27] insistence upon demonizing Israelis. [43:29] Like, look how heartless we are because [43:31] we're so focused on our own suffering. [43:34] We can't focus on Palestinian suffering. [43:36] Well, you know, I would throw that right [43:37] back at them. How many Palestinians have [43:39] expressed remorse over October 7th, [43:42] right? Like not in their name. Has there [43:44] ever been been a not in your name [43:46] campaign amongst either Palestinians or [43:48] their supporters in the West? Right? The [43:49] answer is no. There was no [43:50] self-reflection, no sense of, wow, what [43:53] has our movement come to, right? So, I [43:55] find it outrageous beyond description, [43:59] and you know, words don't do justice to [44:01] how horrifying it is that they just [44:03] can't let us grieve our dead. Um, and [44:06] instead, they're constantly focusing [44:09] their very powerful lens on our soul and [44:12] fi finding it lacking, which I think [44:14] evinces centuries of anti-semitism, [44:16] right? And Jews are something everything [44:19] we do there's an ulterior motive right [44:21] nothing we say can be accepted at face [44:23] value or dead well there's some sort of [44:26] agenda there right there's a pro-Israel [44:28] agenda there's anti-Palestinian agenda [44:30] and that really as [44:32] >> as um calm as my pros is on my posts um [44:37] at camera UK I mean there's an anger [44:40] that I feel personally about it that um [44:43] you know I that just tears at my soul [44:46] that I just find so cruel. I find a lot [44:49] of, you know, what the media does, even [44:51] though it's not intended to be, is cruel [44:53] towards Jews. Um, but I think just as a [44:56] operational standpoint, you know, um, I [44:58] think it's better to be um, factual and [45:01] to have a civil discourse. But don't, [45:03] you know, just don't be under any [45:05] illusion that even though I'm warning [45:07] people against um, uh, inflammatory [45:10] conversations with editors or [45:12] journalists, it's certainly acceptable [45:14] to feel that inside. I think almost all [45:15] Israelis and most diaspora Jews do. [45:17] >> Yeah, it's remarkable. I mean, I your [45:19] description here I thought was [45:20] remarkable in terms of just how precise [45:23] it is in describing uh first of all the [45:26] motivations of this coverage and also [45:28] how you're able to distingu uh keep your [45:30] emotions on one level but your [45:32] professional response on another. I [45:34] really think that that's critical [45:35] because friends of Israel need to know [45:37] how to do that if they're going to be [45:39] effective. Otherwise, it'll be very [45:40] easy, I think, to tar us, as you know, [45:44] uh just sort of lashing out at being [45:46] criticized, which of course is the [45:48] opposite of the of the case. [45:50] >> It's very interesting that you mentioned [45:52] how, uh there's an underlying narrative [45:54] and and it sort of unites uh a lot of [45:57] what you're seeing and and the [45:58] underlying narrative is that we are not [46:00] a legitimate people. This seems to be [46:02] the bottom line. You know, if we want to [46:04] simplify things for a minute and it it [46:07] it really seems to come down to that. If [46:09] Jews are not illegitimate people, that [46:11] we have no right to self-defense and we [46:13] have no right, as you say, to grieve our [46:15] dead or the worst massacre that we've [46:16] experienced since the reestablishment of [46:18] our state. It comes down to that, [46:20] doesn't is that what you're seeing at [46:22] the bottom line, you know, behind all of [46:24] the various coverage and the various [46:27] stories, do you identify a narrative [46:29] that basically says the Jews are not a [46:31] legitimate people? You talked about [46:32] centuries of anti-semitism. Is that at [46:34] the subconscious level what's fueling so [46:37] much of this coverage in your view? I [46:38] mean, you're at the forefront of this. [46:40] >> Yeah, I'd say it definitely fuels the [46:42] pro Palestine activist West. [46:44] >> Okay. [46:44] >> There's no question about them, right? I [46:46] mean, they're anti-Semitics to the core. [46:48] And again, I don't use the word [46:49] anti-Semitics lightly. I use it only [46:51] carefully and cautiously because often [46:54] times you don't know in people's soul, [46:55] but when they shout river to the sea, [46:57] when they shout um, you know, Zionist [46:59] off our streets, [47:01] >> you know, there's no other conclusion, [47:02] right? So, it's an interesting question [47:04] that you ask like to what degree the [47:05] media coverage is colored by the [47:09] anti-semitic um pro Palestinian activist [47:11] west. And I think it's complicated. I [47:14] think it depends on the journalist. Like [47:15] you'll see some journalists might even [47:17] have an activist background or they [47:19] worked for an anti-Israel NGO, right? [47:21] We've seen years ago and I remember I [47:23] forget the journalist name but you know [47:24] a journalist who worked for the Guardian [47:26] who used to work for Amnesty. So you [47:28] kind of seeing this pattern of you know [47:30] activist journalists right they may not [47:33] um engage in that in the inflammatory [47:34] activist rhetoric in their columns but [47:36] their coverage is clearly cover colored [47:38] by it. So I think that they want the [47:42] western journalists, the respectable [47:43] journalists who want to be seen as [47:45] respectable um won't cross certain [47:47] lines, [47:48] >> but you can see the extremist ideas um [47:52] denying Jewish people, denying that [47:54] Israel is a legitimate state, denying [47:55] that Jews are legitimate people, [47:57] >> right? [47:57] >> You know, in the subtext, right? And [47:59] that's kind of one of the challenges of [48:00] writing, which I enjoy, is exposing the [48:02] subtext. It's bringing the subtext above [48:04] the surface. Um and that takes uh a lot [48:07] of a lot of reading. it takes a lot of [48:09] understanding of where they're coming [48:10] from. So, it's a great question you [48:12] asked and again I get just to be clear I [48:14] think it is colored by that but you know [48:17] it depends on the journalist and we try [48:18] to be careful to not accuse everyone uh [48:21] with a broad brush [48:22] >> right and and just to be clear you're [48:24] not accusing everybody with a broad [48:25] brush my question was more a sort of a [48:27] general [48:28] >> trend cultural trend uh you know what's [48:31] fueling so much of this so fascinating [48:33] answer any uh uh concluding uh thoughts [48:36] parting thoughts for our viewers uh [48:38] before we cap this off Adam, we are [48:41] entering um I think in you know from a [48:43] security perspective actually things are [48:45] looking up you know from for the state [48:47] of Israel here in Israel I think our [48:49] security and strategic situation is so [48:52] much better than uh many people ever [48:54] imagined it would be uh 3 years ago but [48:57] at the media and and and perception and [48:59] information uh arena level things seem [49:02] to be pretty bad and that's a really big [49:05] uh dissonance. Yeah. So what what would [49:08] you um you know summarize going forward [49:10] looking ahead? What would you tell our [49:12] viewers? What would be your message [49:13] going forward regarding uh this [49:16] situation? [49:17] >> Look, I would avoid um if one advice to [49:20] avoid um a unthinking optimism, right? [49:24] In other words, um I I think that some [49:26] people [snorts] uh come at this and say [49:28] everything will be okay. Um, and I think [49:31] October 7th showed the um, danger of [49:34] being lyled to a false sense of that, [49:36] you know, we're on a trajectory that's [49:37] just going to go this way. Um, but also [49:40] be careful about um, you know, I would [49:43] say a careless um, a careless [49:46] negativism, meaning like a fatalism, [49:48] meaning that no matter what we do, it [49:50] won't have an impact. So, I think the [49:52] twin uh fears I have is people falling [49:55] into um a kind of fatalistic view that [49:58] nothing we do matters, that we're all [49:59] doomed, right? [50:00] >> Uh I think we have agency as Jewish [50:02] people. I think we have we also have a a [50:04] strong army, [50:05] >> right? Um so some people will ask me, [50:07] for instance, well, do you I mean, and [50:08] and smart people and they're not being [50:10] um they're not being funny. They're [50:12] saying, do you think we need to worry [50:13] about another Holocaust? [50:15] >> And I say, look, do I think that there [50:16] are people out there who want to commit [50:18] another Holocaust? Absolutely. That's [50:19] what October 7th showed. But we also [50:21] have a an army, a strong army, right? [50:23] And a strong economy and a strong ally, [50:26] right? Whatever you say about the US um [50:28] Israeli um alliance and again we don't [50:31] get into details about it, but it's an [50:33] important alliance [50:34] >> of course. [50:34] >> Um so I would say no. Like don't so [50:38] we're not fatalistic, right? We don't [50:40] think the end is nigh, but norther do we [50:43] think that we can be complacent and [50:45] cease in our um battle to fight these [50:48] lies. So I would just advise people to [50:51] stay away from those extreme um views [50:54] and just continue to fight the fight [50:56] because we have no choice. [50:58] >> Analic, thank you so much for joining [51:00] us. I have learned a lot from this [51:01] conversation. I'm sure our viewers have [51:03] as well. I think that the way you [51:05] articulate uh this battle is actually [51:07] not only fascinating but highly [51:09] educational, very useful. I think you've [51:12] uh enriched the perspective of our [51:14] viewers and of this very podcast. So, I [51:16] really thank you for coming here and [51:17] taking the time to share your [51:19] experiences and world view with us. And [51:22] I very much hope that you'll be joining [51:23] us again soon. [51:24] >> Thanks for having me on. This was a lot [51:26] of fun. My pleasure.
