Transcript [00:00] Everything that happens with Iran [00:01] [music] affects Lebanon directly because [00:04] we know of course the the support, the [00:06] money, [music] the weapons, the [00:07] equipment. I mean, Hezbollah essentially [00:10] can't really exist without the Islamic [00:13] Republic. I mean, they are in [music] [00:14] operational control of Hezbollah. There [00:16] was much more autonomy likely under [00:18] [music] Naim Kasim than there is now [00:21] without him. I mean, it seems like the [00:22] IRGC is is is fully in charge at the [00:25] moment. Lebanon has been the front line [00:27] of defense [music] and and you see it [00:28] you've seen it throughout the [00:29] negotiations since April that [music] [00:32] Steve Wickoff and Jared Kushner have [00:34] done with the Iranians. [00:40] >> Morgan Otagus, thank you very much for [00:42] joining us. [00:43] >> I'm happy to be here. Thank you. [00:46] >> Um, what are you up to these days? you [00:48] know, sitting on a few boards and trying [00:49] to remain active uh not only as a former [00:53] member of the Trump administration, but [00:55] as a concerned Jewish mother um and what [00:57] happens in the Middle East. [00:59] >> So, you started what we're seeing these [01:02] days, the the possibility of normal [01:04] normalization between Israel and [01:07] Lebanon. Um the chances really to take [01:10] downah power inside Lebanon. Can you [01:13] tell me about the about these first [01:16] months when you started your job? How [01:19] hard was it to convince the Lebanese [01:22] government to change their attitude? [01:25] >> So, I think it has to go back to the [01:27] first Trump administration where I was a [01:29] part of the small team with Secretary [01:31] Pompeo um especially Jared Kushner [01:34] obviously uh Brian Hook, Avi Burkowitz, [01:38] uh all of us were a part of this very [01:40] small team. Ambassador David Freriedman, [01:42] Ari Lightstone, who's still working in [01:44] the administration. It was an incredibly [01:47] small team working on Abraham Accords [01:49] and um we knew that it was something [01:51] that would last for we hoped, you know, [01:53] for generations that this would be a new [01:55] era for Israel. So coming into the [01:57] second Trump administration, we [01:59] obviously had hopes that we wanted to [02:01] expand Abraham Accords, but it was in [02:03] the backdrop of October 7th, right? [02:05] things had changed so fundamentally for [02:08] both Israel and America since uh the [02:10] Abraham Accords in the fall of 2020. So, [02:14] um Steve Witoff, who's you know, [02:16] fantastic guy, asked me to be his [02:18] deputy. And as you can imagine, at the [02:21] beginning of any administration, anyone, [02:23] it's so chaotic. You're trying to the [02:26] whole White House staff turns over and [02:28] it's not um from one party to the same [02:31] party. It's from two different parties. [02:33] So the White House is chaos, State [02:35] Department's chaos. This is all very [02:37] new, very normal at the beginning of [02:39] administration. I swore in about 15 [02:41] minutes after President Trump actually, [02:43] I was sitting at the State Department. [02:45] So Steve and I started talking early on. [02:47] We had a very good transition actually [02:49] with Brett Mcgherk and Amos Hawkstein. [02:51] They were excellent to work with. And [02:53] Steve was so busy, as you'll remember, [02:56] before President Trump even swore in, [02:58] the Biden administration brought Steve [02:59] in to start negotiating to get the [03:01] hostages out. And and I think that was a [03:03] very smart uh thing that they did. And [03:06] so Steve looked at me and he said, [03:08] "Listen, there are so much there's so [03:09] many wars going on around the world. Um [03:12] I'm going to need you to to take on the [03:14] Lebanon file." Oh, and by the way, so I [03:16] started talking to Amos Hawkin and you [03:19] know, by the way, the um provision and [03:22] the ceasefire that the Biden [03:24] administration and the Israelis and [03:26] Lebanese government um had uh uh had [03:30] negotiated in November uh after the [03:32] election in November of 24. The [03:34] provision in there said that the [03:35] Israelis had to be out entirely um like [03:38] the first weekend of our administration. [03:41] So, of course, I jump on the phone with [03:43] Ron Durmer and Ambassador Herdzog was [03:46] here at the time and and I knew it was [03:48] probably unrealistic for um for both [03:50] sides. Uh I was still in the Navy [03:52] Reserve. So, I remember that first [03:54] weekend I'm sort of pacing the halls and [03:57] what we call our guacs, which is just, [03:59] you know, a uniform in the in the Navy [04:01] uh trying to negotiate between these two [04:03] parties. Um, so it was and the only [04:06] thing I could think was, my goodness, [04:07] there's no way that I could allow this [04:09] to fall apart the first weekend of the [04:10] Trump presidency or I'm done. We got to [04:12] get a deal. So, we ended up getting an [04:14] extension. But it was very clear to me [04:16] very early on um that we needed to push [04:19] that we had a historic o opportunity [04:22] after the Israelis took out Nisella that [04:25] we had a historic opportunity to try and [04:28] bring these two sides together in a way [04:30] since they had not been brought brought [04:32] together really since the 80s. And I [04:34] will tell you who implanted that in my [04:36] in my mind were was not the Israelis, [04:39] not even really the Americans because we [04:41] were so busy with with you know Gaza and [04:43] Saudi and other things. It was the [04:45] Lebanese themselves. It was Lebanese [04:47] friends uh who were so excited about the [04:50] prospect um uh for potentially for [04:53] peace, for normalization, principally [04:56] because the boogeyman Nisalla had been [04:58] taken out in such a dramatic fashion uh [05:01] by the Israelis. And so there was this [05:04] real um there was this real boon amongst [05:06] the Lebanese. And I think what's so [05:07] special about the talks that I put [05:09] together and this peace initiative that [05:11] I've been working on um you know for [05:13] almost two years now is that the genesis [05:17] uh I have to say didn't come from [05:18] Israel, didn't even come from America. [05:20] Of course, we wanted to expand the [05:21] Abraham Accords, but the genesis came [05:23] from the is uh from the Lebanese people [05:26] saying to me, we have to go for peace. [05:28] It's now or never. [05:30] So you saying that when Australa, you [05:34] know, when Israel assassinated Australia [05:36] and he was dead, that was in your view [05:38] the big change the moment you heard [05:41] different voices from Lebanese. [05:43] >> Yeah. I liken it to um sort of in Trump [05:46] one when I was working for Secretary [05:47] Pompeo as the State Department [05:49] spokesperson and we took out uh Naim [05:51] Kasum, right? And you sort of, you know, [05:54] there are people that get entrenched and [05:56] you think that they are invincible, uh, [05:58] that they can't be touched, that, uh, [06:00] that they're gonna, you know, be there [06:01] forever. Um, and when we took out Naen [06:04] Kasum, I think, uh, that was that was [06:07] really a historic opportunity for us to [06:09] really drive forward aggressively in the [06:12] max pressure campaign against the [06:13] Islamic Republic uh, of Iran. And I [06:16] think we handed the Biden administration [06:18] an incredibly weak Iran. I was [06:19] disappointed to see them squander that [06:22] opportunity. So when I saw as a as a [06:26] former administration official, but the [06:28] president had won. I had not yet been [06:30] asked to go in. But when I saw the [06:32] Israelis uh take out uh Nzella, [06:36] it brought back for me all of the [06:38] memories of taking out Naim Kasum. And I [06:40] thought to myself, we cannot squander [06:42] this opportunity the way the Biden [06:44] administration squandered the [06:45] opportunity of taking out Naim Kasum. [06:47] This is the moment that we have to uh [06:50] aggressively degrade uh Hezbollah as [06:53] much as we can and to push Israel and [06:56] Lebanon together for peace. I mean, [06:57] they're neighbors. If anyone's going to [06:59] have peace, it should be the two of [07:00] them. [07:01] >> So, tell me, you know, you're still in [07:03] touch probably with your Lebanese [07:05] colleagues. What exactly are you hearing [07:06] from them? How fast would they have [07:09] wanted to go when it comes to [07:11] normalizations with Israel or, you know, [07:13] or take down as a threat? You know, I [07:16] think Lebanon Lebanon is a very small [07:19] but very complicated society. Uh so you [07:22] can get many opinions amongst the [07:23] Christians, amongst the Shia, you know, [07:26] amongst the Sunni. Um don't forget that, [07:28] you know, it wasn't long after uh Nisa [07:31] was taken out, that Assad fell, that [07:33] that regime fell. And you saw about 1.5 [07:35] million Syrians that ended up in Lebanon [07:38] as well. And of course, Lebanon was [07:40] coming off of a many years of a [07:42] financial crisis. said this is this is [07:44] not a uh you know an elaborately rich or [07:47] wealthy government. There's not oil you [07:49] know proceeds there. They thought when [07:51] the gas deal with Israel but may that [07:52] maybe that would be promising [07:54] opportunity that has not yet um [07:56] developed. Uh so you know when you when [07:59] you look around um the region and when [08:01] you uh when you look at what can we how [08:04] how do we press for peace? How do we use [08:06] this moment? um you you have to take [08:09] like I I I think that there are moments [08:11] in in time in history that can be taken [08:13] advantage of but they can also be easily [08:15] lost and turned into disaster. So [08:18] [snorts] [08:19] um I think if you look at the Shia when [08:21] we came in and and opinions may be [08:23] different now but when we came in in [08:25] January 25 we very much felt like the [08:28] Shia especially those in southern [08:30] Lebanon were were at that point very [08:32] disgusted and frustrated with Hezbollah. [08:35] um pre prior to that I sort of [08:38] understand their reliance on them right [08:40] this is the entity Hzbollah is the [08:42] entity that if you are a mom I've said [08:44] this many times if you're a mom in [08:45] southern Lebanon this is the entity that [08:47] was providing health care infrastructure [08:50] schooling for your children and the [08:52] Lebanese government wasn't there they [08:54] completely abdicated their [08:56] responsibility so you've got this moment [08:58] where you not only can try to militarily [09:00] degrade Hzbollah but you have this [09:03] moment where the Lebanese government [09:04] really needed to step in. Um, [09:07] unfortunately, I think that that has [09:09] been lacking and is still lacking. And I [09:11] think um the the government is trying to [09:14] do is trying to do so. They're often [09:16] looking for more funds. But there is [09:18] this chicken in the egg problem that [09:20] that the Lebanese government hasn't been [09:22] able to to figure out. And that is after [09:26] the 2006 war, the people who came in and [09:29] rebuilt southern Lebanon, essentially [09:31] the Gulf States, they did this for [09:33] Hezbollah. Hezbollah took back over. [09:36] This is the enemy of the Gulf Arab [09:37] states as well, especially the Saudis. [09:40] And so you have these uh massive [09:42] conflicts around the world, right? You [09:43] know, Gaza is going to cost billions of [09:46] dollars likely in in in Gulf aid. uh you [09:49] have uh you had Syria, you know, huge [09:52] potential there obviously, but massive [09:54] massive bills. So, at the time, again, [09:57] this is the spring of 25. If you're a [10:00] donor, you're looking at the big bill [10:02] for Gaza, you're looking at the big bill [10:03] for Syria, and then you're looking at [10:05] southern Lebanon, and it just sort of [10:08] came last in the priority list, mostly [10:11] because of the lack of faith um in the [10:13] Lebanese governments who actually disarm [10:15] Hezbollah. And I I think they are I I [10:19] think that the Lebanese government um [10:22] also wanted to go into the south and [10:24] sort of recreate that that uh presence [10:27] of government that the Shia residents [10:28] need. Uh however, they just didn't have [10:30] the funds and the capacity uh to do so. [10:33] And that's something that has remained [10:35] unsolved that will have to be solved. If [10:38] you look at where the Sunnis are for [10:39] peace, I think they very much in Lebanon [10:41] at least um some of them are very bold. [10:44] I mean, look at Makumi, you know, uh a a [10:47] PM um a parliamentarian. He speaks out [10:50] about it for peace. Mikatti, uh the [10:52] former prime minister, I believe, has as [10:55] well. Uh I think most Sunnis are sort of [10:57] looking to see uh what Saudi and other [11:01] Arab states do. They sort of like to go [11:02] with a consensus. Christians um have [11:05] similarly historically been divided. [11:08] However, I see a real coalescing amongst [11:11] the Christians of understanding that if [11:13] if they don't have a relationship with [11:15] Israel, you could lose the last country [11:18] in the Middle East where Christians have [11:20] a Christian head of state, where they [11:23] are, you know, leaders um and business [11:26] and finance, leaders in government. Now, [11:28] nowhere else do you have Christian [11:31] authority and autonomy the way that you [11:32] do in Lebanon. And I hope the Christians [11:34] of Lebanon understand that the only way [11:36] to continue that is not by partnering [11:38] with Hezbollah in Iran the way like [11:40] Jimbrron Bile did for example, but [11:42] instead to really get married to Israel. [11:45] And then the Shia, I mean, listen, I've [11:47] always thought the path to peace in [11:48] Lebanon really ultimately goes to uh the [11:51] Shia. Uh they're the ones who are right [11:53] next door neighbors, but they have been [11:56] controlled by a malicious regime in [11:59] Thran. Uh they've got daily propaganda [12:01] from Iran. They've got the IRGC now [12:04] basically uh you know in Lebanon and [12:07] outside of Lebanon running Hezbollah [12:10] because the leadership has basically [12:11] been so decimated. So for me, the [12:14] billion-dollar question is is how do you [12:17] make the Shia understand that their life [12:20] will be exponentially better and a [12:23] partnership with their neighbor, just [12:24] normal peace with their neighbor in [12:26] Israel as opposed to continuing more [12:29] decades of being beholden to Iran, which [12:31] I would argue just leads to perpetual [12:33] war. [12:34] >> Do you remember any historical moment [12:37] from, you know, the time you haded these [12:39] negotiations? I think you were in the [12:41] first time in many years where civilian [12:44] officials, right, met other civilian [12:46] Lebanese officials. [12:48] >> Yes. I mean, listen, we had um we had a [12:50] lot of discussions, you know, early on [12:52] in my very first meeting with President [12:54] Aun and with Prime Minister Noah Salam. [12:57] I was very clear to them that the Trump [12:59] administration's policy was um expanding [13:02] Abraham Accords and peace. And I knew it [13:04] would take time to get there. You know, [13:06] I I think it's important context to [13:07] remember in the Trump administration, we [13:09] didn't get Abraham Accords in year one, [13:11] right? It was year four. It was the end [13:13] of the administration. It was four years [13:15] of very tough and strong policies [13:18] towards the Islamic Republic of Iran and [13:20] policies where we made it very clear, [13:23] listen, we're going to promote our [13:24] friends, we're going to promote peace, [13:26] we're going to stand by our allies, and [13:28] we're going to punish our enemies. And [13:29] so, it took us four years to get there. [13:31] So, I by no means expected any of this [13:34] to happen overnight. Um, and we did [13:36] start a lot of discussions early. You'll [13:38] probably remember maybe it was like [13:41] March of 25. Um, we actually had the [13:44] first exchange of um prisoners. Uh, [13:47] Israel, I believe, sent five prisoners [13:49] home around then in order to get [13:51] negotiations going. Um, and it took some [13:54] time. It was the fall of uh 25 um when [13:59] we started having those civilian [14:00] negotiations um direct open at the NORA [14:04] which is of course the place where the [14:05] mechanism takes place and I think that [14:07] summer of 25 uh when at that point I had [14:10] gone to the United Nations the president [14:12] asked me to go there but in the summer [14:14] of 25 uh we really revived what we [14:17] called the mechanism and that was the [14:19] military mechanism that the Biden [14:20] administration put in place after the [14:22] sessation of hostilities in November. [14:24] 24. So it had kind of like petered out [14:27] and that summer I said, you know, the [14:29] only way I'm ever going to bring these [14:30] two sides together is to build trust and [14:33] it's going to be small meeting by small [14:35] meeting. [14:36] >> Do you remember any specific historic [14:38] moment or or moment that you remember [14:40] from all these early talks between [14:42] Israelis and Lebanese? [14:44] >> Yes, I think what really started um the [14:47] first thing was in March of 25. Um, I [14:51] worked with Prime Minister Netanyahu and [14:53] and Ron Durmer and his team and we were [14:54] able to get uh five um Lebanese um [14:58] prisoners sent back and and that was [15:01] sort of the impetus, the goodwill [15:03] measure to get things going. Of course, [15:04] we had already negotiated when Israel [15:07] would leave most of southern Lebanon. [15:09] They left everything but the but the [15:10] five points. And then what we did is in [15:13] the summer of 25 um we realized that we [15:16] needed to um I realized that I needed to [15:20] build some sort of like faith, right? [15:22] Some something small between the two of [15:24] them. And we had the mechanism which was [15:26] the military mechanism that the Biden [15:28] administration put into place after the [15:30] November secession of hostilities. Uh we [15:33] would meet at the NORA um in uh in in [15:36] southern Lebanon of course and every [15:39] week um maybe not every week, probably [15:41] every other week, twice a month, you [15:42] know, they went from sort of not meeting [15:44] at all to I requested to Admiral Cooper [15:47] that we revive the mechanism and that we [15:49] bring in the Marines. And so it was [15:50] really exciting moment for me because [15:52] from the United States perspective, we [15:54] brought back the Marines to Beirut. I [15:56] was pretty proud of that. And I was sort [15:59] of honestly in many ways it was like [16:01] pulling teeth. I think that I was like [16:02] the sometimes I felt like the annoying [16:05] teacher sort of forcing everybody to [16:06] come to class and I said to both sides [16:09] and it was a tiny room. I mean the room [16:11] in the necor where we do these [16:12] negotiations are really really small and [16:15] I said listen I don't care if I have to [16:16] kill myself to do this but I will get on [16:18] a plane and every two weeks I will be [16:21] here and we're all going to sit here and [16:23] it's so I guess it is sort of like being [16:25] a teacher. We're all going to sit here [16:26] and hold hands and say that we love each [16:28] other. I joke, but it was a moment for [16:31] us to get together and you know, you [16:32] realize the person sitting across the [16:34] room for you isn't the boogeyman, right? [16:36] Like one of the Israeli officers who was [16:38] there told us at one point, he said, you [16:41] know, I live 15 minutes here, 15 minutes [16:44] from Lebanon and my children are there [16:47] and my family is there. So, I take um I [16:51] I I take dismantling Hezbollah uh and [16:54] taking their weapons and and and what [16:55] we're doing between our two militaries [16:57] very seriously. So what I gambled on um [17:01] I'm a high what I gambled on is that if [17:03] I could make and get the military to [17:05] meet you know every two weeks in person [17:08] in a small room sharing the same coffee [17:11] looking across from each other realizing [17:14] that your neighbor you know like I said [17:16] is not the boogeyman but maybe your [17:17] neighbor is someone that you could have [17:19] peace with someone that you could at a [17:21] minimum work with. I thought over time [17:24] that will allow for civilian [17:26] negotiations. Um, and it did. And those [17:28] are what we started. [snorts] I can't [17:31] remember if it was October or November [17:33] um 25. And um and of course, you know, [17:36] things changed um in February of of 26 [17:40] once um the Iran war started. And and of [17:43] course, Michelle Issa, my very good [17:45] friend, when I left the administration [17:46] took over those negotiations. But [17:49] really, those those initial meetings at [17:51] the NORAI were like they were beautiful. [17:55] They were historic. I need to I need to [17:57] go back while I can still remember [17:59] everything and and write it down. And of [18:01] course, we didn't we didn't make peace. [18:03] But I think what we did is we put into [18:06] motion um we took away the stigma uh [18:09] that Israelis and Lebanese could sit in [18:11] the same room and talk to each other [18:13] directly. I mean, I think that what was [18:14] so different about the sessation of [18:15] hostilities or even the gas deal that [18:18] Amos negotiated. The difference was as I [18:21] said, I'm gonna I'm gonna sit here and [18:23] I'm gonna help you guys, but you're [18:24] gonna have to sit in chairs next to each [18:26] other and look at each other and talk to [18:27] each other as human beings. And they [18:29] did. [18:30] >> Let's talk about the 12-day war and epic [18:33] fury and all the Trump administration [18:35] steps against the Iranian regime. How [18:38] much effect did it have on what went on [18:41] in Lebanon in your view? [18:42] >> It's the thousand pound elephant in the [18:44] room, right? Everything that happens [18:46] with Iran affects Lebanon directly. uh [18:49] because we know of course the the [18:51] support the money the weapons the [18:53] equipment I mean Hezbollah [18:56] essentially can't really exist uh [18:59] without the Islamic Republic I mean they [19:01] are in operational control of Hezbollah [19:04] um there was much more autonomy you know [19:07] uh likely under Naim uh Kasam um than [19:11] there was than there is now you know you [19:13] know without him I mean it seems like [19:14] the IRGC is almost it's is fully in [19:17] charge uh you know at the moment But [19:19] this is um this has of course been the [19:21] Lebanon has been the front line of [19:23] defense and and you see it you've seen [19:25] it throughout the negotiations [19:27] uh over um since April that uh Steve [19:30] Wickoff and Jared Kushner um have done [19:33] with the Iranians. I mean how many times [19:35] have we had seen statements where the [19:37] Iranians didn't name Yemen, right? [19:40] didn't name Iraq, didn't name Sudan or [19:43] any other country where they [19:44] specifically named um Lebanon that they [19:48] they you know they they very much see [19:50] Lebanon as their vassal state and I [19:52] don't think what they quite understand [19:54] is that the in my opinion the Lebanese [19:56] people at large are have really rebelled [19:59] against that. They're sick of death and [20:00] destruction. H [20:02] >> how much willingness is there in Lebanon [20:06] um for what's happening right now in [20:08] Iran? the you know the enormous steps of [20:11] the Trumpen administration, the economic [20:13] pressure, the military operation we saw [20:15] you know in recent year. How much [20:17] willingness is there inside Lebanon to [20:19] see these things happen? Do you think? [20:22] >> Well, I think that they are I mean [20:23] listen, whenever you're a tiny country [20:26] and when your next door neighbor [20:27] constantly has a noose around your neck [20:29] and someone can come and free that [20:31] noose, I think you're you welcome that, [20:33] right? you you they I think they welcome [20:36] if someone can help them not be um uh [20:38] beholden and and capitulating uh to [20:41] Iran. Saying that, you know, it's not [20:44] like Hezbollah has lost all of their [20:46] sophistication. you know these [20:48] politicians [20:50] um like uh Aun um like Jimal, like um uh [20:55] Mikatti and Mazumi and others um who [20:58] speak out you know in favor of [21:00] normalization and peace between Israel [21:03] uh and who speak out like the foreign [21:04] minister Raji um these people take on [21:08] extreme personal risk and and and the [21:10] business people uh and people in civil [21:13] society do as well and that's something [21:15] that I would like u the averages Israeli [21:17] to understand. I think the one thing [21:19] that I have noticed um is how much since [21:22] the 2006 war and since everything became [21:24] so bifurcated between Israel and [21:26] Lebanon, it's amazing to me how much [21:29] Israelis and Lebanese don't understand [21:31] each other. I mean, they literally live [21:33] a stones throw away from each other. [21:36] Yet, they really don't understand each [21:38] other in many ways. The culture, um [21:40] there's a whole generation on both [21:42] sides. and Israel, if you were born [21:44] around 2006 and you're, you know, you're [21:48] 20 years old and you're partying in [21:49] college and you're partying in Tel Aviv [21:51] right now, you you only think of [21:53] Hezbollah. And similarly in Lebanon, um [21:56] if you if you were, if you're 20 years [21:58] old, if you're 18 years old, if you're [22:00] in your early 20s, you know, what do you [22:02] know about Israel except the propaganda [22:04] that you see from Alazer and other [22:06] places? So, what what I'd like Israelis [22:09] to know is is I have so many friends um [22:11] who are Lebanese um and and many of them [22:14] are living in the US now that they [22:16] cannot go back to Lebanon because they [22:18] speak out for peace between Israel uh [22:20] and Lebanon. Now, those rules and those [22:22] laws are antiquated. They're they're [22:25] silly. Uh they need to change. It's [22:27] incumbent upon the Israeli excuse me, [22:29] the Lebanese government to do so. But [22:31] but that's a big takeaway that I want [22:33] Israelis to understand is that there are [22:35] Lebanese people who passionately care [22:37] about peace to the detriment um of [22:40] themselves [22:42] and to the fact that they might not be [22:43] able to or they can't really they [22:46] actually can't go back to Lebanon to see [22:48] their family and friends until there's [22:50] peace until these laws change. So um for [22:53] the for the Israelis I would ask you [22:55] don't look at Lebanon um as just your [22:58] neighbor where Hzbollah is there. [23:00] Hezbollah has been a massive problem. [23:02] Obviously it's a security risk but [23:04] there's so much more to Lebanon than [23:05] just Hezbollah and I hope um that this [23:09] Israeli government will understand that [23:10] and really embrace and and pursue a path [23:13] towards peace. And this is an issue [23:16] really I know you and your husband are [23:19] really trying to do a big change about [23:22] try you know and big bring together [23:24] these regular Lebanesees and regular [23:26] Israelis and trying to change their [23:28] perception of both sides. Can you tell [23:30] me a bit about you know these meetings [23:33] sometimes you arrange I know these kind [23:36] of things what people usually surprised [23:38] of when they meet the other side. Well, [23:41] I think what's fantastic about social [23:43] media is there's so many ways to [23:44] connect, you know, now and you're seeing [23:47] it both um in uh in regular Lebanese [23:52] media stations um but you're also seeing [23:54] it organically happen on social media. [23:56] You see people talking about um having [23:59] uh uh having a beer in Tel Aviv or you [24:02] know u the Israelis wanting to go to [24:04] these infamous clubs in in in Beirut, [24:07] you know, in the Dah. uh not in Baha, in [24:10] Faha and other places in uh in Lebanon. [24:14] And and so I think that the more that we [24:16] have these people-to-people exchanges, [24:19] especially through social media, the [24:20] more that you have dialogue, uh the more [24:23] this will open up. And and and the truth [24:25] is, listen, everybody knows that when um [24:28] Israelis and Lebanese uh are around the [24:31] world, whether they're in New York City [24:33] or London or Paris, right, they people [24:36] meet with each other, right? They they [24:38] know it's out there, but that's not [24:40] really the average Lebanese citizen. [24:42] That's sort of the elite. I think the [24:44] elite totally get it and understand it. [24:46] What we need is for the average Lebanese [24:50] citizen and the average Israeli citizen, [24:52] especially those communities living in [24:54] um northern uh Lebanon and northern [24:57] Israel and southern Lebanon. We need [24:59] those communities. those communities are [25:01] the most crucial and the most important [25:03] to understand uh why peace um will be [25:06] beneficial for them. It's not just about [25:08] having peace because you know it would [25:11] be good for President Trump to say he [25:12] has another peace deal. That's not what [25:14] this is about. It's about peace because [25:16] it actually brings prosperity um and it [25:19] brings real partnership. You know, let's [25:20] just look even even militarily. [25:23] Let's look this week at what's happened [25:25] with the Houthis in Saudi Arabia. you [25:28] know, as as you're seeing the Houthies [25:30] take over these port, the Iranians, the [25:31] IRGC are down there reportedly directing [25:34] them uh involved and the Houthis, you [25:37] know, seem stronger than ever in some [25:39] ways when you look at it from the [25:40] outside. You know, I looked at the the [25:43] Houthis aggressively attacking Saudi and [25:46] I thought to myself, where's the Mecca [25:48] alliance? Where's Pakistan? Where's [25:51] Turkey? And the one thing I'd like the [25:53] Lebanese to understand and not just the [25:55] Lebanese because we want to work on [25:56] peace between uh Israel and all of her [25:59] neighbors and all of the Arab states um [26:02] and one day with Iran. I fundamentally [26:04] believe one day there will be a new [26:05] regime in Iran and there will be peace. [26:06] There'll be the Cyrus Accords. But if [26:08] you're looking at your strategic [26:10] alliance, um if you're if you're a tiny [26:13] country, you know, like Lebanon, if [26:15] you're Iraq or or you know, any of the [26:17] any of these countries in the region [26:19] that have been traditionally under the [26:21] umbrella of Iran, uh if if you look at [26:24] it, who is really going to go in and [26:26] fight for you and be there for you when [26:28] your back is against the wall? I think [26:30] if you ask the Drews, you know, if you [26:33] ask the Kurds and and other minorities, [26:35] the only one who's coming to save you is [26:37] Israel. So from a military perspective, [26:40] from a strategic alliance perspective, [26:42] uh yes, I happen to think as an American [26:45] that we are a great partner and ally, [26:47] and that we have been there for our [26:49] friends for generations. But if I'm [26:51] Lebanon, why in the world would I look [26:54] to the Turks? Would I look to the [26:56] Egyptians or the Pakistanis? They [26:59] haven't been there when Saudi needed it. [27:00] Maybe they'll eventually come, but so [27:02] far this week, that alliance looks [27:04] hollow. It looks empty. If you want real [27:07] protection, if you want real friendship, [27:09] there's one country in the Middle East [27:11] that's willing to fight against Iran. [27:12] One, that's the state of Israel. [27:15] >> Is there anything you think Israel could [27:17] have done different uh in order to [27:19] change the view of Lebanon towards [27:21] Israelis? [27:22] >> That's a good question. [27:24] Um, you know, I think that a lot of last [27:28] year in 25 it was challenging for me to [27:33] get Israel to focus on Lebanon. And [27:35] that's not a criticism, that's [27:37] understandable, right? There was so much [27:39] going on with Gaza. Um, in 25 there was [27:42] the uh, you know, the first operation, [27:45] you know, against Iran. Um, and Israel [27:48] had a sevenfront war, you know, to deal [27:50] with. So I I would say that so far be [27:54] before we started these civilian [27:56] negotiations [27:58] um the the Israeli approach to Lebanon [28:01] was extremely tactical. You know where [28:03] is and important tactically but still [28:06] very tactical. Where is Hezbollah moving [28:08] a weapon? Where are they what's buried [28:11] under a house? Is there a tunnel there? [28:12] What is the laugh doing? Um and I think [28:15] that I wish they had taken the [28:17] opportunity to really embrace um [28:20] President Aon earlier um because he came [28:23] in if you listen to his speech right [28:25] after he was inaugurated just a few [28:26] weeks before President Trump. It was [28:28] clear that he was very open toward to [28:31] making history between Israel and [28:33] Lebanon. He was very open to a path [28:35] towards peace. But with so many [28:37] competing interests for the state of [28:39] Israel, Lebanon was dealt with extremely [28:42] tactically. And it was sort of for me [28:44] like I it was almost like a cheerleader [28:46] with pompoms, you know, trying to get uh [28:48] the attention of the Israeli government [28:50] to say, "Listen, you have a real [28:52] opportunity here uh with Lebanon." And [28:54] and and we got close a few times. And [28:56] I'm encouraged now, of course, at the uh [29:00] negotiations that uh are being led by uh [29:03] Secretary of State Marco Rubio and [29:05] Michelle Issa and others. These talks [29:08] are important. I don't think we should [29:09] diminish them and everybody is in a rush [29:12] for where's it going, where is it going. [29:14] Ambassador Mike Huckabe just talked [29:16] about this a few weeks ago. I I I [29:18] believe fundamentally that we're going [29:19] to get to peace. I can't tell you when. [29:22] You know, I don't know. This is not a [29:23] football game. I don't know when we're [29:24] going to be able to spike the spike the [29:26] football in the end zone. I hope your [29:28] Israeli audience understands that uh [29:31] that American analogy. Um but I think [29:34] that we are I think we're halfway down [29:36] the aisle. We just you know everybody's [29:38] got to fully commit to getting married. [29:41] >> You know you know one of the things that [29:43] Israel is already expecting is why isn't [29:45] this normalization law with Israelis [29:48] that Lebanon has abolished? You know [29:50] that's that's a big question at the end [29:52] from their side. Yeah, it it revi it's [29:55] not something that Aun could um my [29:57] understanding is that it's not something [29:59] that could just you know wave that it's [30:01] going to require an act of the [30:03] parliament um which is of course led by [30:05] Nabi Barry. So, not impossible, but [30:07] hard. And I think it's something that [30:09] the in my opinion, it's something that [30:11] the American government should push for [30:14] uh in these negotiations because [30:15] President Trump already spoke about it [30:17] and set a red line on it and sort of I [30:19] don't remember the president's exact [30:20] words, but the president uh my President [30:22] Trump made it incredibly clear that he [30:24] thinks this law should go and ergo it [30:26] should be something that's um pushed in [30:28] the negotiations. [30:32] Although it was really in the past I'm [30:33] ask you about this visit with you know [30:36] you don't just talk you know the truth [30:39] you come with the symbols and back then [30:40] when you visited Lebanon there was a big [30:42] story about you visiting with the star [30:45] David on you what kind of reaction did [30:48] you get from your Lebanese colleagues [30:51] >> no one said anything to me sort of at [30:53] the time I you know it's important for [30:55] everybody to know that my I wasn't [30:58] making a statement but I was making a [31:00] statement What I mean by that is since [31:02] October 7th, like I have a Megan Diamond [31:04] on right now. Um I try I've tried since [31:08] October 7th um every day whether it's a [31:11] ring, a necklace, a bracelet, whatever [31:13] it is to have on a magnab. And that is a [31:17] statement about my faith. Um it's not a [31:20] political statement. It is a statement [31:22] that I'm a Jewish woman uh with a with a [31:25] Jewish daughter um who I am extremely [31:28] protective of. And after October 7th, I [31:33] I I determined within myself that I was [31:36] going to make sure that she was never [31:38] scared uh or never ashamed or never [31:41] worried to be a Jew. And so what I [31:44] wanted, and she's uh almost 6 years old [31:47] now. Um, so what I wanted her to see is [31:50] to constantly see the symbol of our [31:52] faith on her mother to know no matter [31:55] what it is, you know, a t-shirt, a ring, [31:57] a necklace, you name it, whatever [32:00] whatever it is, I wanted her to grow up [32:02] knowing um that we are proud to be Jews. [32:06] And so for me um the symbols that I wear [32:09] of my faith I wear everywhere whether I [32:12] am in Lebanon or in China or whatever [32:15] negotiation I'm in around the world. Um [32:18] and it's not a commentary on the state [32:20] of Israel. It's a commentary on the fact [32:23] um that I am a proud Jew now. I will [32:26] live as a proud Jew and I will die as a [32:28] proud Jew. [32:29] >> I I want to talk to you about a [32:31] colleagues that recently passed away. [32:33] one of your colleagues to all this [32:35] Lebanon story, Lindsey Graham. Uh can [32:38] you tell us a bit you you know the man [32:40] itself you know his work really to bring [32:43] normalization between Israel you know we [32:46] know the Saudi, we know other countries [32:48] and try to to connect to Israel and he [32:51] was a big part also of the Lebanon [32:53] story. a huge part of my life. Um, you [32:56] know, just a just a dear friend and and [32:58] I think what so many people don't know [33:00] about Senator Graham. I mean, you know, [33:02] what an ally he was to the state of [33:03] Israel. He was a proud American who [33:06] served 33 years in the Air Force, uh, [33:09] representative in the in the House, then [33:11] became a senator and and just really a a [33:14] storied um, American life. Um, someone [33:17] who really made a difference. But [33:19] there's people like me all over [33:20] Washington that he mentored and trained [33:24] and um we didn't always necessarily [33:26] agree on every policy, but certainly [33:28] when it came to foreign policy, when we [33:30] would work on issues related to Israel, [33:33] I I can tell you that his um belief in [33:36] the American Israeli alliance was a deep [33:39] core conviction. Um it wasn't about [33:42] electoral votes. It was deeply deeply [33:44] sincere. Uh and and actually I went with [33:47] him on his first trip to Saudi Arabia [33:49] after he spent several years not talking [33:51] to NBS. I think this trip was 20. [33:57] It was definitely before October 7th. It [33:59] was 21 or 22. Um when we went to both [34:02] Saudi and Israel and um the guys who [34:05] were doing the documentary of his life [34:07] have the have the footage of it. Um, and [34:09] we went there to sort of kickstart uh [34:11] the behind-the-scenes quiet negotiations [34:14] of trying to bring Saudi and Israel [34:16] together for for peace. Um, I would say [34:19] that it was one of his many life's [34:20] passion and causes. You know, the the [34:23] good Lord decided to take him home. Um, [34:25] but there is always, you know, believe [34:27] that we are going to get peace between [34:29] Israel and Lebanon and Saudi and all of [34:31] these things that he cared deeply about. [34:33] Um, it will be in large part due due to [34:36] his unrelenting and his tireless [34:38] efforts. And, you know, I wish I wish he [34:41] was would be here to see it one day. I [34:42] think he'll certainly be watching us [34:43] from heaven. Um, but but Lindsay was um [34:47] he was the kind of person whenever he [34:48] was dedicated to a mission or to a [34:50] policy, it it consumed him. It was all [34:53] of him. And he made so many trips uh to [34:57] Saudi, to Israel. And then later when I [34:59] started working the Lebanon file, I [35:01] invited him to go to Lebanon. And he was [35:03] actually the first person, the first [35:06] major politician. Um this was like in [35:08] August of 25. He was the first one to [35:11] see sort of the future between the [35:13] United States and Lebanon. And and he [35:15] said in an interview there that he could [35:17] actually eventually see a defense [35:18] agreement uh between Lebanon and and the [35:21] United States. And I think that he [35:23] wanted to give the Lebanese people um [35:25] hope and something to work forward look [35:27] forward to. So for me, you know, I spoke [35:31] to um Senator Graham about an hour [35:33] before he died um if maybe two hours if [35:36] you if you look at the timing. And he [35:39] called me because he had just gotten [35:40] back from um Ukraine. He was famously [35:43] there with President Zalinsky and a few [35:45] days before that he had been at NATO um [35:47] in Turkey, I believe in Ankura. and he [35:51] had just gotten off the phone with [35:52] President Trump and they were genuinely [35:54] very good friends. He loved President [35:56] Trump and they were they were talking [35:59] about uh he was telling me what was [36:02] going to be happening next in Iran. Um [36:04] how he had met Shara uh you know in [36:06] Turkey, what he would be doing there. Um [36:09] and and he was very excited about his [36:11] Russia sanctions bill that he was trying [36:14] to push through the Senate and and he [36:16] was talking I mean our last conversation [36:18] was talking about the potential avenues [36:20] of peace uh for Israel between Saudi um [36:24] and Israel and Lebanon. I mean it was my [36:26] last conversation with him. [36:28] >> That's the man that's the man when you [36:29] need to sum up talking about trying to [36:32] do good around the world I think. So he [36:35] died I would can say in his final [36:37] moments um you know a few hours before [36:40] he passed away he had hope he wasn't [36:43] pessimistic he believed this was going [36:45] to happen and and he felt that we all [36:47] played a role in it and one of the [36:50] things that he told me consistently is [36:51] you have to carry this forward so for me [36:54] while I'm you know very much focused on [36:56] right now on taking a little a break and [36:58] being a mom um and and focusing on my [37:02] daughter everything that I can continue [37:04] to do in my private capacity uh to [37:07] support Secretary Rubio and Michelle [37:09] Issa, Mike Huckabe and others as we push [37:11] this forward. I'm doing for Lindsay. [37:16] >> We, you know, every time he came to [37:18] Israel, he was always optimistic. And to [37:20] come to here and be an optimistic [37:22] person, you know, this is a really [37:24] wonder. Um um it's kind of magical to be [37:28] optimistic usually when you come here to [37:30] the region. I have two really last [37:33] questions. Um I want to talk you with [37:35] few you one more question about Iran [37:37] policy at the end what we're seeing now [37:39] this maximum pressure. This was born [37:42] during the first Trump administration [37:45] but we are seeing it about 200 uh [37:48] kilometers per per hour now right in [37:51] your view will it bring the ad the [37:53] regime at the end down this is a the [37:56] goal [37:57] >> sanctions in and of themselves never [37:59] bring any regime down right that's [38:01] that's you know you can't rely on them [38:03] exclusively just like you can't rely on [38:06] only military power or only diplomacy [38:09] it's all they all have to work coh [38:10] cohesively together. So you have to have [38:12] a strategic policy. President Trump has [38:15] never said that his policy is to bring [38:17] down the regime or to force regime [38:18] change. President Trump has said that [38:21] his policy, his overarching goal is to [38:23] make sure that Iran never obtains a [38:25] nuclear weapon on his watch. So whether [38:28] it is this really impressive economic uh [38:31] sanctions campaign that Secretary [38:33] Bessent our Treasury Secretary is [38:35] pursuing whether it's that whether it is [38:37] the military pressure the diplomatic [38:40] pressure through Steven Jared the [38:42] military pressure through Pete Hexath [38:44] and Admiral Cooper all of these pieces [38:47] uh come together in support of a [38:49] strategic goal. Sanctions are tactics, [38:52] not a strategy. And I'm a massive [38:54] supporter uh of what Bessant uh I is [38:57] doing. And what I think is really [38:59] important and incumbent on all the [39:01] countries in the region, especially the [39:02] Gulf countries, is to be aligned with [39:05] that policy. You know, we can't have [39:07] cheaters. Uh we can't have people that [39:09] are giving a little bit of oxygen and [39:10] lifeblood here and there to to the [39:12] regime. We need a unified front in order [39:15] for this to be effective. But I would [39:17] emphasize that sanctions are a tactic. [39:19] the larger strategic goal is to ensure [39:22] that they never have a nuclear weapon. [39:24] And I think the president made that [39:26] clear in his first and his second uh [39:28] term and and and really throughout his [39:29] adult life, he's been an Iran critic. He [39:31] understands [39:33] it it's not just about Iran not having a [39:35] nuclear weapon because of the threats um [39:37] potentially to the United States and our [39:39] bases. It's because it would [39:41] fundamentally alter and upend the region [39:44] uh in a way that would be disastrous for [39:47] everybody, for the planet. [39:49] >> When do you think me, [39:52] you will be able to finally meet in [39:55] Beirut for lunch? [39:58] >> Well, I hope so. I haven't been back to [40:00] Beirut in a little bit. I miss going. Um [40:03] uh so, you know, I I think it's going to [40:05] happen. [40:06] >> How is Beirut these days, by the way? [40:07] How's Maru these days when you when you [40:09] when when you went there? Can [40:11] >> I haven't been back since uh December? [40:13] Um it's it's a beautiful place. I mean, [40:15] it's a historic place. There's really [40:17] like uh I always joke uh Lebanon made it [40:20] easy to fall in love with them in in [40:22] more ways than one. Um the food is [40:24] amazing, of course, and the people are [40:26] so happy and so full of life. Um and [40:29] they have and they have been they've [40:31] been dealt, you know, a terrible hand [40:33] with all of these wars and economic uh [40:35] catastrophes. Yeah, everybody in Lebanon [40:38] keeps a smile on their face. They're [40:39] super hospitable. They love to party. [40:42] Um, but I I can't wait for the day when [40:45] we're all there together. And and [40:46] listen, I'm I don't think this is like a [40:48] conversation we're going to have in 20 [40:50] years. My hope and my prayer is that [40:52] President Trump is successful and that [40:54] this does happen in his administration. [40:56] >> And you think again the Lebanese [40:58] government will be willing at some point [41:00] to go head-to-head with his it will [41:03] happen at the end? [41:05] It hasn't happened so far. You know, [41:07] they have they they've been aggressive. [41:09] They've done a lot. But when it comes to [41:11] actually physically taking crucial [41:14] weapons from Hezbollah, they take a lot [41:16] of old things and a lot of things that [41:18] Hezbollah is willing to give up. Um but [41:21] the demilitarization of Hezbollah um is [41:25] probably going to have to go handinhand [41:26] with our policy um towards Iran. And [41:29] what the Lebanese government is most [41:31] concerned about is internal security and [41:34] stability. I've heard that from them for [41:35] two years. While I understand that, I [41:37] would say there is no way to have [41:40] internal security and stability with an [41:43] armed Hzbollah. They can't those those [41:45] two goals are not cannot coexist. [41:47] >> So hopefully our next meeting will be in [41:49] Beirut. Thank you very much, I guess, [41:52] for your time. Thank you very much. [41:54] >> Thanks so [music] much. Appreciate it. [41:56] Thank you.
