Transcript [00:00] Welcome back to NGO Monitor podcast in [00:02] conversation with a reminder. NGO [00:05] Monitor is a Jerusalem based research [00:07] institute doing a seemingly simple [00:09] thing. We defend Israel's right to exist [00:12] as a Jewish state in all that is today [00:15] defined as human rights space. Today I [00:18] have a special uh honor and pleasure to [00:21] have our friend and colleague Adam Levik [00:25] uh from Camera with us uh in what I hope [00:30] will be a super interesting conversation [00:33] diving into one of the hottest topics [00:37] today and that is why what we read in [00:40] the media is so toxic against Israel and [00:43] so toxic uh against the Jews so much so [00:47] that it actually physically and not only [00:51] uh politically endangers the state of [00:53] Israel and the safety of the Jewish [00:55] communities around the world. Adam, [00:57] welcome. And why don't I start you off [01:00] with just telling us uh what is it that [01:02] camera does for all those if there might [01:04] be who do not know that? [01:06] >> Okay. Camera was founded in 1982 around [01:08] the first Lebanon war. Um around the [01:10] time that activists in Boston, which is [01:12] where our organization was founded, [01:14] began to see a noticeable shift in media [01:16] coverage of Israel. Um you know, towards [01:19] the the more negative and more biased [01:20] coverage. Um so our mission then, as it [01:24] is today, although we've grown a lot, is [01:25] to promote accurate reporting about [01:28] Israel in the media. Um we operate in [01:30] four different languages, English of [01:32] course, Hebrew, Arabic, and Spanish. And [01:35] [snorts] in addition to our media [01:37] department, we have a campus department [01:39] which has a slightly different mission [01:40] in that we empower um the next [01:43] generation of pro-Israel activists to [01:46] you know we I would say we arm them with [01:47] two things. The facts, right? because [01:49] you can't promote Israel if you if you [01:51] are um if you don't understand the [01:53] history of the Middle East, if you don't [01:54] understand what's what's happening and [01:56] also with a confidential especially [01:58] today in our um you know this really [02:00] difficult um atmosphere that has [02:02] happened on campus especially since [02:03] October 7th really takes a lot of [02:05] courage and a lot of um strength to [02:08] advocate for Israel. So we try to arm [02:10] them both with the confidence and the [02:12] facts necessary to advocate for Israel [02:15] um on college campuses. We also have a [02:17] Christian department. All right. So, um, [02:18] which is kind of a also has a unique [02:20] mission in that it does focus on the [02:22] Christian media outlets, but it also [02:24] focuses on the Christian the church [02:26] institutions themselves, um, which even [02:30] within the evangelical community, [02:32] there's been an attack by a small but [02:34] vocal anti-ionist wing to try to um, get [02:37] the movement to be less pro-Israel. [02:40] >> And I'm really glad that you're you're [02:42] centering your activity around facts, [02:44] right? Because this is this is [02:45] definitely uh one of the guiding [02:47] principles of what we do at NGO monitor, [02:50] right? We believe that in order to uh [02:52] understand what is going on around us, [02:54] we first need to know the facts and we [02:56] see it as our mandate to put forth bare [03:00] facts be before any interpretation or [03:03] anything. And this is why camera is such [03:05] an important partner and ally of ours. [03:07] So staying on that, what would you say [03:10] is one of one phenomena that you've [03:12] identified uh in your research that [03:15] someone watching or reading the news [03:17] right in uh about Israel today should uh [03:21] might not pick up on themselves? I've [03:23] been doing this for about 16 years and [03:25] you know if I were to give you what I [03:28] view is the most underappreciated and an [03:31] important dynamic that motivates [03:32] anti-Israel bias it's the failure of [03:35] well NOS's of course but in my line of [03:38] work media outlets to assign agency to [03:40] Palestinians that is they're framed as [03:42] solely victims um they're framed as [03:45] lacking the the um moral agency right um [03:49] that we normally assign to adults um [03:51] which I have argued is both racist [03:54] against Palestinians. It's [03:55] paternalistic. It's they infantile [03:57] Palestinians in a way that you know [03:59] normally would be considered racist. If [04:01] say in America American context if um [04:03] someone were to frame African-Americans [04:05] as you know somehow less right less [04:07] capable than white Americans that would [04:09] be considered racist. And I think it's [04:10] racist against Palestinians although [04:12] they probably don't wouldn't accept [04:14] that. But it's also anti-semitic. Right? [04:16] Whenever you hold Jews to a higher u [04:18] level, a higher moral standard than [04:20] non-Jews, that's also anti-Semitic. And [04:22] I think it's also anti-western, right? [04:24] The Western tradition, we focus on the [04:26] individual, right? The the the [04:28] sacredness of the individual um and that [04:30] individuals have agency and they they [04:32] and their actions determine the [04:34] consequences in their life. So I think [04:36] it's this kind of uh moral and [04:38] intellectual um framing that is so [04:40] counter to the western tradition and so [04:42] counter to liberal democracies that [04:44] distorts the framing of Israel in the [04:46] media. [04:47] >> And we ultimately see the very same uh [04:50] lines coming out of official policies of [04:52] different governments in the western [04:54] world. Um and it begs a question whether [04:56] they are feeding the media or the media [04:58] is feeding them. But if we try to uh [05:02] untangle that, who would you say are the [05:04] main sources that the media uses, right? [05:07] Is it coming from their sources or do [05:09] you is there also responsibility that [05:11] should be um given to the to the med [05:14] media outlets themselves? [05:16] >> Well, it's the answer is yes to all. I [05:19] mean, in other words, the media makes [05:20] the decision to outsource the reporting [05:22] to NOS's as you know. They also make the [05:24] decision to outsource the reporting to [05:25] international bodies like the UN and [05:27] various UN agencies and sometimes even [05:29] you know commissions that aren't even [05:31] officially connected to the UN. Um so [05:33] for instance okay we recently posted [05:35] about a Financial Times article and [05:37] Financial Times is considered to be a [05:38] very wellrespected um you know media [05:41] outlet not just when it comes to [05:42] finances but also in politics and they u [05:45] made the claim one of their journalists [05:46] that um Gaza has the highest per capita [05:50] percentage of child amputees in the [05:52] world. Now I did some digging you know [05:53] as we do we you know we value our [05:55] research and I traced back the original [05:58] claim to Dr. Abu [05:59] >> Sitta, [06:00] >> Gassan Sitta, who you know discredited [06:02] pro Hamas, you know very well [06:04] >> and as far as I can tell the claim was [06:07] on source but it was repeated and then [06:08] it got repeated and repeated and [06:10] eventually I forget which UN agency but [06:12] I think one of the UN human rights uh [06:15] divisions um made that claim in a speech [06:18] and so the basically it it was [06:21] unsourced. there was no report. Whereas, [06:23] you know, you guys do a great job of [06:25] unpacking and scrutinizing the UN and [06:28] NGO reports themsel or the the NGO [06:30] reports themselves. There was no report. [06:32] It was just simply anecdotal, right? And [06:35] so we complained to the Financial Times [06:38] and said like, "What's your source?" And [06:39] they basically said, "Well, if the UN [06:41] says it, it must be true." Right? So [06:42] there's, as you always said, that hallow [06:44] effect, right? So oftentimes media [06:46] outlets, especially since there's a lot [06:48] less foreign reporters in Jerusalem, [06:50] right? um a lot of you know due to the [06:53] economic model of journalism changing [06:55] and a lot of media outlets um in the [06:57] states specifically they used to have [06:58] like a reporter in Jerusalem they kind [07:01] of um outsource their foreign reporting [07:03] their military reporting to either the [07:05] wire services or to just you know NOS's [07:08] on the ground right so um it's a [07:11] combination of journalists not doing due [07:13] diligence not doing the research not [07:15] having someone on the ground to check it [07:16] and also they bought into what I just [07:19] described this kind of post-modern [07:22] critical theory um almost neo-Marxist [07:24] idea right that you can group people [07:26] into different classes and what they do [07:28] as individuals doesn't matter because [07:30] Palestinians in their framing is is are [07:32] members of an oppressed class whereas [07:34] Jews um [07:35] >> are superior [07:36] >> are superior are in a privileged class [07:38] right so which is such a discredited [07:40] it's so easily discredited [07:42] intellectually but but it's something [07:43] that I think escapes um the radar of [07:46] most people who just don't have time to [07:48] do the due diligence and have normal [07:49] jobs and They see these biased [07:51] headlines, these biased reports, and [07:52] they don't know where it comes from. And [07:54] I think a lot of it comes from this um [07:56] what I would describe as an illiberal [07:57] dynamic. That is it's illiberal in the [07:59] sense that it flies in the face of [08:00] hundreds of years of liberal, [08:02] democratic, and western values. [08:04] >> So, but what you're basically saying is [08:06] what NGO monitor has been saying, you're [08:08] just taking it from the media uh from [08:10] your angle of scrutinizing media. You [08:13] have we have this paradoxical situation [08:15] where anyone can create an NGO today and [08:18] call itself a human rights group or a [08:20] humanitarian group but very quickly [08:22] they're picked up or by now [08:24] automatically they're picked up by media [08:26] UN agencies and oftentimes governments [08:29] as this independent [08:32] fact collectors of systemic uh right [08:37] violations of human rights, [08:38] international law and so on. uh they're [08:41] on the ground and they're almost [08:44] replacing what used to be authentic [08:46] journalism and they're being quoted [08:48] without much verification and then by [08:52] agency that right the legitimacy that [08:55] serious media sources outlets like [08:57] Financial Times bring to the table it's [09:00] being picked up by the UN and by the [09:02] governments and it's like a vicious [09:03] circle that um allows this situation [09:08] where an average person who is not [09:11] knowledgeable about the situation in the [09:14] Middle East and doesn't even necessarily [09:16] have an opinion. Right. Right. [09:17] >> They are fed uh [09:21] an analysis in what they deem is a [09:24] serious and objective media outlet and [09:27] this forms a distorted image of what is [09:29] going on there. [09:30] >> Absolutely. In fact, I'm sure you know [09:32] about this because you've done research [09:33] about the greatest example to me of this [09:35] hallow effect is your med human rights [09:38] monitor, right? Hamas tide. Like you [09:40] think that alone would be, you know, [09:42] that media outlets who, you know, fancy [09:45] themselves as serious news outlets [09:46] wouldn't wouldn't site an organization [09:48] that's clear tied to Hamas. But because [09:50] they have the name Euromat, which sounds [09:52] kind of like euphonious. It sounds so [09:54] pleasing. It sounds like you're about to [09:55] enter a cruise or something, right? Um, [09:57] and human rights monitor. It just shows [09:59] you, you put the word human rights and [10:02] journal journalists who are supposed to [10:03] be skeptical, right? who are supposed to [10:05] like you know uh speak truth to power [10:07] and critically scrutinize just suspend [10:10] all disbelief and quote them as if [10:13] they're and sometimes they don't even [10:15] have a report right just a press release [10:16] from this Hamas tide uh NGO and that's [10:21] enough to like you know to accuse Israel [10:23] of in one case right there was a claim [10:25] early in the war I think it was in 20 20 [10:27] 24 that Jews were Israelis were organ [10:30] harvesting [10:31] >> well if you're already bringing them up [10:33] right Uh, I mean this is like a [10:35] conversation between two nerds, right? I [10:38] mean they were heavily quoted in [10:40] Kristoff's oped. Yes. Opinion piece with [10:42] all grape liel. [10:43] >> Exactly. So like we see that as a as a [10:46] recurring uh theme and it doesn't matter [10:49] [clears throat] [10:50] uh how often you debunk it, the media [10:52] just keeps going back. And I guess that [10:54] leads me to um to the to I think what to [10:58] me is one of the most interesting [10:59] questions. Is there a pattern to how [11:02] media outlets react to you alerting them [11:05] or questioning or challenging when you [11:07] bring them facts and you say, "Well, [11:08] this is not a, you know, an authentic [11:11] source or what is your source or your [11:13] source is actually something completely [11:15] different?" What is their reaction? Do [11:18] you find journalistic integrity or is [11:20] there a trend there? [11:22] >> Uh, it depends on the media outlet. I'm [11:24] not going to make broad generalizations. [11:26] I think that it depends on the media [11:27] outlet, right? Um, for instance, BBC, [11:30] I'm going to put them in a special [11:31] category because it number one, they're [11:33] global, right? They operate in 40 [11:34] different languages. Um, they have this [11:38] uh, you know, people assume because [11:39] comes from the BBC, it's accurate. So, [11:41] they have this reputational value [11:43] >> and so they're this gigantic media, [11:45] international global media [11:48] that really does a lot of damage to [11:50] Israel and to Jews, I would say, by the [11:51] reporting. The one good thing is that [11:53] they are license fee ped, right? So, [11:56] they are accountable. They're they're [11:58] commissioned by a a real commission, [12:00] right? They're um they have a charter. [12:03] They're accountable to the British [12:04] taxpayers essentially to all the [12:06] licensed pairs payers. And so the one [12:09] thing that makes them vulnerable whereas [12:11] uh media outlets that are just [12:13] independent, which is most media [12:15] outlets, can really do whatever they [12:16] want. The BBC, you know, really has to [12:19] account and has to respond to every [12:21] complaint. And there's also susceptible [12:24] to to political pressure. So MPs and [12:26] members house members of the House of [12:28] Lords, you know, if they grill them in a [12:30] committee meeting, they kind of have to [12:31] answer, right? So as problematic as they [12:34] are, like there's still more hope that [12:36] they could reform just due to, you know, [12:38] political political pressure. I meaning [12:40] in the general sense meaning just [12:41] pressure from uh British people who want [12:44] them to be more objective. But say the [12:46] Guardian or the New York Times, right? [12:47] They can do whatever they want. I mean, [12:48] the Guardian people always ask me like, [12:50] "Are they going to aren't they losing [12:52] money?" And yes, but unfortunately they [12:55] have a trust um the um Scott trust which [12:58] is the last time I saw is valued at1 [13:01] billion pounds. So they could lose you [13:03] know hundred million a year for the next [13:05] 10 years and they'll speed around. So [13:07] but I guess a roundabout this is a [13:08] roundabout way of getting to the answer [13:09] and that is we focus on getting [13:12] corrections. Um, and even if we don't [13:14] get corrections, we feel that we're [13:16] establishing relationships with editors [13:17] and with journalists that are still [13:19] positive. And the fact that they feel [13:20] that need to respond to us, I think is a [13:22] good thing, right? The fact that they [13:24] know that we're hovering over every word [13:26] >> that someone's looking. [13:27] >> Yeah. Is better than if and you know, [13:29] and you understand that also. [13:30] >> We're in the same line of work. We might [13:32] we always say we're not in the business [13:34] of having anyone like us but if they are [13:36] reading our reports and benchmarking [13:39] their activities right uh to our reports [13:42] then we we're doing something exactly [13:44] >> we're doing something right. [13:45] >> Yeah. [13:45] >> Um so what would be the [13:49] when you know for everyone listening to [13:51] us when they read the news what should [13:53] they be looking for? [13:54] >> Well they should be looking for sources [13:56] number one. um you know they should be [13:58] you know for instance when they say [14:00] there was a BBC report recently that [14:03] quoted that really discredited uh was it [14:06] the international scholars of genocide [14:08] organization that was you know [14:10] discredited what was it two years ago [14:11] when it found out that anybody could [14:13] join and you know people join with their [14:15] with their dog's name you know it was [14:16] just this completely uh lacking [14:20] credibility of this organization but it [14:21] has the word genocide in it right so [14:23] look at the sources right and then see [14:25] if camera or NGO monitor or any of the [14:28] other watch organizations has done any [14:30] fisking and done any uh so see who those [14:32] sources are and also you know there's [14:34] this tendency within media outlets to um [14:38] all rally around the same message right [14:41] um so I I really think it's important as [14:43] a news consumer if people have time to [14:46] see what the other outlets are saying [14:48] for instance okay like the one good news [14:50] about what's happening today is that we [14:52] live in a very diverse media landscape [14:54] right there there's you know back When I [14:55] grew up, there was like four three um [14:58] you know broadcast news networks in the [14:59] US, right? Um so you either got your [15:02] news from like ABC, NBC or CBS. Then [15:05] there was the the newspapers. So in [15:07] other words, the fact that there's [15:08] Substack, right? And you know people [15:10] have for like serious journalists um [15:13] like Andrew Fox for instance, right? [15:15] He's a scholar and former um army [15:17] veteran in the UK. He is a Substack. So [15:19] in other words, I would recommend these [15:21] alternative voices that have platforms [15:23] that never would have used to have [15:24] platforms. I would also look at [15:25] something for instance as simple as [15:27] following CBS now that Barry Weiss took [15:30] over um their news division is a [15:32] positive sense of what okay so so [15:34] there's one one way of looking at it [15:36] right there is a reason to hope for [15:39] change within organizations [15:40] institutional change and I think Barry [15:42] Weiss whatever you say about her I think [15:43] she's trying to bring positive more uh [15:45] balanced news to the CBS news division [15:48] and then there's these um other [15:50] platforms right that never used to exist [15:52] before the internet or even before like [15:53] few years ago like Substack. So I would [15:56] encourage people that are just get [15:58] frustrated and bang their fist on their [16:00] table when they read the New York Times. [16:01] Okay, read the New York Times, but then [16:02] also read uh a journalist that you trust [16:05] on subse [16:07] um you know source, check out Cameron [16:09] and Jim, but also just there are um the [16:11] diversification of the media is a [16:13] positive thing and I think that's [16:15] something that needs to be focused more [16:16] than it's currently focused on. So [16:18] basically you're saying it almost always [16:20] start when it comes to the Middle East [16:22] right and the Israeli Palestinian [16:23] conflict it almost always starts with [16:24] some NGO [16:26] >> or UN or UN which is the pretty much [16:29] because the UN also heavily relies on [16:31] NGOs. So there's a right there's an echo [16:33] chamber there. Uh so check the NGO and [16:36] check I I would even say who's quoted in [16:38] the piece right because that is already [16:41] very telling who's commentating on the [16:44] on the issue. It's interesting that you [16:46] bring it up. Um I want to bring us um [16:49] maybe to what's been happening in the [16:52] last couple of days and what is [16:53] dominating uh the global news cycle and [16:57] um ask you if the uh the biased [17:01] reporting media reporting right and [17:04] oftentimes basically ideological [17:06] politicized media reporting can be [17:08] applied to other situations in the [17:10] world. I was asked this morning about uh [17:13] the riots in Paris, right, and in [17:15] Europe. And uh and I really tried [17:17] preparing for the radio interview to to [17:20] not give a populist answer, right? And [17:23] be more responsible. And the best I [17:25] managed was actually to say it depends [17:27] who you're reading, right? Because it [17:29] depends on which media outlet is [17:31] reporting. one were reporting that it [17:33] was genuine uh you know protests and [17:37] that there was excessive police um uh [17:40] violence and aggression and the other [17:42] ones that tend to be more conservative [17:43] were saying well we looked at the far [17:45] left and the Islamist groups etc. Do you [17:48] see similar trends in other um areas [17:51] that media is reporting? Is it uh more [17:54] emphasized when it comes to Israeli [17:56] Palestinian conflict? Like walk us [17:58] through the levels of bias that you see. [18:01] >> Okay. Well, we do only focus on our [18:03] narrative on our mission which is you [18:05] know Middle East. Um of course you know [18:07] the Middle East does bleed into other [18:08] issues, right? Because to the degree [18:09] that there were Palestinian flags being [18:11] waved during the French riots um is kind [18:14] of telling right that Palestinianism has [18:16] become this avatar of you know throwing [18:19] down like destroying the system right [18:21] it's become like a shorthand thanks to [18:24] become a shorthand for just you know we [18:26] reject western values we reject western [18:28] democracy and I think that's and that's [18:31] an interesting point and this is [18:32] something again we yeah we try to stay [18:34] within our lane so we don't necessarily [18:37] focus uh with a laser meme on the French [18:40] protest, but I can't. To the degree that [18:41] Palestinianism has become the standin [18:44] for anti-western beliefs, I think that's [18:47] an opportunity for people that aren't as [18:49] engrossed in, you know, the Middle East [18:51] conflict as the Israeli Palestinian [18:53] conflict as us and aren't experts, [18:55] aren't, you know, um, to understand that [18:57] what's being challenged isn't just [18:59] Israel's legitimacy, isn't just even [19:01] diaspora Jews and their safety. It's [19:03] also the West, right? Like this is a the [19:05] pro Palestinian movement is if nothing [19:09] in addition to being uh hostile to [19:11] Israel's very right to exist this is a [19:12] Jewish state in addition to being [19:14] hostile to Jews quad Jews it's also [19:16] hostile to you know uh western [19:18] democracies to America to the UK to the [19:21] establishment and you know as someone [19:23] who's a big fan personally of the west [19:25] right of of western values of [19:27] constitutional democracy um you know so [19:30] even if I wasn't living in Israel even [19:32] if I wasn't Jewish And you see someone [19:34] like I mentioned Andrew Fox before, but [19:36] he's someone who just I think comes at [19:37] this from a you know he served in the [19:39] British military. did tours in [19:41] Afghanistan, I think Iraq, and he really [19:43] just like most people, I think was like [19:45] most normies, as I like to say, just [19:47] loves his country, right? Just like even [19:49] though I made Alia, you know, 16 years [19:51] ago, I still love the US, right? I love [19:53] what it stands for. Um, so even if you [19:56] are not Jewish or not pro-Israel as [19:58] such, I think what we're encountering, [20:00] and this needs to be framed more often [20:02] as an attack on the very values that [20:04] make our democracy possible. And that's [20:06] what makes it, I think, even more scary. [20:07] I think even and I think it it brings [20:09] the point home more to people that [20:10] aren't in our kind of our our own little [20:13] echo chamber. [20:14] >> Well, that's a that's a big piece of uh [20:17] of uh warning, right, for what's really [20:19] going on. Um [20:22] we we dealt with what would you suggest [20:25] the readers to do in order to be able to [20:27] get more critical news. What should [20:30] journalists look out for? Right? How do [20:32] let's say that there let's be naive for [20:35] a second, right? for the sake of the [20:36] exercise and assume that there is a [20:38] young journalist or a new guy looking [20:40] for a job and they it's understandable [20:43] that they want to work for one of the [20:45] top media outlets right so you can [20:47] understand why even today even young [20:49] Jews would want to work for the UN and [20:52] similarly why they would want to work [20:53] for you know the New York Times this is [20:55] still considered the top of the top [20:58] right yeah [20:58] >> what should they do in order to make [21:02] their journalism and reporting more [21:05] responsible and with more integrity, I [21:07] would say. Yeah, it's a difficult [21:09] question to answer, but you know, and as [21:12] far-fetched as this may sound, look, I [21:14] want to go back to the BBC because the [21:15] BBC has in addition to their their [21:17] editorial policy, in addition to an act [21:19] a general accuracy clause, has a clause [21:21] in which journalists are supposed to um [21:23] give viewers who don't understand [21:26] necessarily the ideological background [21:27] of an NGO or an organization or a [21:30] commentator, they're supposed to by the [21:32] editorial standards um give some [21:35] background, right, on these [21:36] organizations And this is something that [21:38] though my colleague Leia Benos who [21:40] monitors the BBC is constantly [21:42] complaining of we've been complaining uh [21:44] for 15 years about that they still kind [21:46] of resist that. Um, so in other words, [21:49] and I think that's such a basic [21:50] requirement, right? Don't assume um good [21:53] intentions like don't assume that it or [21:56] that people that are watching the BBC [21:58] knows who these people are and try to [22:00] give some sort of fair assessment. You [22:02] know, like when I write post for Camera [22:04] UK and obviously um I always if I [22:06] mention um say Betsellum um I'll [22:09] hyperlink to your page on Betsellum, but [22:11] I'm not I'm not even asking media out to [22:13] do that. How about just maybe come to [22:15] you for a quick comment or come to in [22:18] other come to voices that have [22:20] critically scrutinized these groups and [22:22] just don't assume that because it's pro [22:23] Palestine that they're telling the [22:25] truth. [22:25] >> I guess at least say some say this and [22:29] we don't see that anymore. [22:30] >> Yeah. [22:30] >> Rarely rarely. So it just to really give [22:33] both sides but it doesn't just mean [22:35] getting a statement from the Israeli [22:36] government. It means there are people [22:38] who have done really critical analyses [22:40] right and our reports are well [22:41] researched. obviously years ago well [22:43] researched um generously footnoted um to [22:45] take seriously those who have raised [22:47] questions about the legitimacy of these [22:49] groups that they're quoting. [22:50] >> Um I guess one last question because [22:53] this we cannot avoid this uh this topic [22:55] today. Um how does AI play into this [22:58] whole um you know equation? Does it make [23:02] it does it deepen further deepen the the [23:05] bias, right? Or is that an opportunity [23:08] for the readers to actually get a [23:10] quicker uh but more critical look by [23:12] just [music] saying to their prompt, you [23:14] know, give me opposing opinions or [23:16] whatever? Like what do you see anything [23:18] uh there as a trend? [23:20] >> You know, I I'll answer this first like [23:22] jok jokingly. Um that's question is [23:25] beyond my pay grade. I'm not a a tech [23:28] guy or an AI guy. I know that it's [23:30] something that we're currently using AI [23:33] tools for our own research, but even but [23:35] even AI has its own limits and its own [23:37] biases. Um, you know, it kind of reminds [23:39] me at the dawn of Wikipedia, right? We [23:41] thought it was going to be this next new [23:42] generation of like, you know, easily [23:44] accessible facts, right? Um, so I think [23:47] it's only as good as the algorithm, [23:49] right? Um, it is a powerful research [23:51] tool and I find it better than Google, [23:53] right? So Google's AI uh search is [23:55] better than regular Google. Mhm. [23:57] >> Um but I I don't think we should really [24:00] um have any like uh high hopes that it's [24:02] going to change the discourse. I think [24:04] it depends on who uses it, how they use [24:06] it, and um you know to what degree um [24:10] the programmers are really interested in [24:12] programming in a way that will give both [24:14] sides. It's certainly sometimes I see [24:17] answers that give me hope, right? But um [24:20] again, I'm not an AI specialist. I know [24:23] that as a researcher it's it's [24:24] definitely helpful. It just it it it [24:26] scans more information and you do get [24:29] like you said opposing sides but at the [24:30] same at the end of the day I do want to [24:32] point out that it is ultimately the [24:33] human [24:34] >> researcher that has to fact check even [24:36] AI right that it's so much more like you [24:39] know finding the truth about Israel is [24:40] more than just a perfect AI program you [24:42] have to have to contextualize it right [24:44] and contextualizing information is kind [24:46] of what you do and it's what we do and [24:48] so you still need the human at the end [24:50] of the day to say okay this may be true [24:52] this may be true but how do they fit [24:53] together right I think the process in [24:55] our minds is much more complicated than [24:57] at least the current generation of AI is [24:59] able to reproduce. [25:00] >> And this contextualization is probably [25:02] what is the trickiest part of this [25:04] challenge because today people are [25:07] hungry for less and less context and [25:09] less words. They want their messages [25:11] served to them in short sound bites and [25:14] they basically want the one that is [25:17] feeding them information to already make [25:19] the judgment call and sort of so yeah I [25:22] think that's part of that's at least [25:23] what we see even with the elected [25:25] officials and policy makers that there's [25:27] less contextulation and less interest [25:29] and appetite for you know nuanced [25:34] balanced opinions and critical thinking. [25:37] Yeah, it's very scary actually. It is [25:39] scary and you know like I would say this [25:40] like even though I'm sure it's it's true [25:43] within monitor we have a very a growing [25:45] social media department right we're on X [25:48] we're on Facebook we're on uh even Tik [25:50] Tok and Instagram but all of our content [25:54] is based on research right so I mean in [25:56] other words and that's kind of important [25:58] because there's so much junk out on [26:00] social media so we try to be among the [26:02] outliers right that everything we we [26:04] publish on social media is based on [26:06] research is based on facts It might be [26:08] summarized in a couple bullet points. [26:10] Certainly, you know, Instagram doesn't [26:11] give you much in the way of like space, [26:13] right? Um, but I do think that, you [26:17] know, it's important that those of us [26:19] who care about research and care about [26:20] the truth about Israel in the Middle [26:21] East use social media in a way that's [26:23] responsible and the way that people who [26:25] click on the content or share that [26:26] content know that they're not just [26:28] getting a uh, you know, a talking point [26:31] that kind of sends endorphins to their [26:32] brain, but it's based on researchers who [26:34] take their job as researchers. Very [26:36] important. And I think at the end of the [26:36] day for camera research our researcher [26:38] is our research is the backbone of what [26:40] we do. [26:41] >> Well I think it's a perfect way to [26:42] actually sort of summarize our [26:44] conversation because it is a a theme [26:46] that we share right and a value that NGO [26:49] monitor and camera share. We are not [26:52] really pushing for an opinion. We don't [26:54] want anyone to agree with us. We are [26:57] providing facts and inviting everyone to [26:59] make their own opinions but based on [27:01] facts. Do your homework. It's actually [27:04] all this tech and all the new the [27:07] innovation is never going to replace [27:09] just asking questions having a critical [27:12] approach to any one topic and the [27:14] tougher the topic the more critical that [27:16] we actually need to be. Um Adam thank [27:19] you so much for being here and I uh we [27:21] cannot emphasize enough how important [27:24] cameras work is um and we're happy to [27:26] partner with you and uh look forward to [27:29] doing more of that. Keep doing your [27:30] brave and important work. [27:32] >> Thanks. I really appreciate the [27:33] opportunity.
