Transcript [00:00] Okay, everyone. Well, good evening um [00:03] from us at the NJA. My name is Steve [00:05] Winston um and I'm the managing director [00:08] of the National Jewish Assembly. For [00:11] those of you who are regulars with us on [00:13] these events, you'll you'll know um [00:16] you'll know me. Um for those who don't, [00:19] uh nice to e meet you. Um, so we're all [00:23] here eagerly um waiting for our guest [00:26] speaker this evening, Adam Levik, to [00:29] speak to us. Um, the title of this [00:32] evening's event is more than just [00:35] victims. How the media erases [00:38] Palestinian agency. Um, and I think [00:41] that's that's fair to say that that's a [00:43] a subject matter that is [00:46] often stroke always on our minds. um and [00:50] the source of much frustration for for [00:53] those of us who care about Israel and [00:56] and um the the well-beings of the [01:00] country and and its diaspora communities [01:02] as well. Um so this evening we are [01:05] joined by Adam Levik who is the um the [01:10] uh media research manager for Camera [01:13] which is uh an acronym for the committee [01:16] for accuracy in Middle East reporting [01:18] and analysis. Um Adam previously worked [01:21] as a researcher at the NGO monitor and [01:24] prior to that at the civil rights [01:26] division of the Anti-Defamation League [01:28] that's the ADL. [01:30] Um he uh also has published many reports [01:34] on progressive anti-semitism for the [01:36] Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and [01:39] his op-eds um of which there are many [01:43] and they are all superb have appeared in [01:45] the Guardian, The Independent, The Irish [01:48] Examiner, The Philadelphia Inquirer, The [01:50] Jewish Chronicle, the Jewish Quarterly, [01:53] the Jerusalem Post, the Times of Israel, [01:55] the Algam Miner, South African Jewish [01:57] Affairs and Perspectives, which is the [02:01] print magazine of ASAP UK. So Adam comes [02:04] to us this evening with wonderful [02:07] credentials and without further ado I am [02:12] going to actually in one moment hand [02:15] over to to Adam. Um but if I could just [02:17] remind you all to please keep yourselves [02:19] on mute and um once Adam has um [02:24] completed his presentation this evening, [02:26] we will then go to a Q&A. But what I [02:30] would ask is that um please submit any [02:34] questions you have into the chat and we [02:38] will do our very best to put as many of [02:40] those questions to Adam this evening. [02:42] Okay, so Adam, without further ado, over [02:44] to you. Thank you for joining us. [02:47] >> Thanks for having me, Steve. I [02:49] appreciate it. You guys do really good [02:50] work. It's a really pleasure to be [02:52] speaking to your members and your [02:54] supporters. Uh the talk that I'm giving [02:58] is a talk I've been giving a lot and [03:00] that is more than just victims. How [03:02] media coverage erases Palestine agency [03:04] and moral responsibility. [03:06] Um they'll begin obviously on October [03:10] 7th and um certainly the problem of [03:14] denying Palestinians agency didn't begin [03:16] then but that's when it became most [03:18] acute um because in the immediate [03:20] aftermath of the October 7th massacre [03:23] which as everyone knows is the deadliest [03:26] anti-semitic attack since the Holocaust [03:28] even I and I've been doing this for 16 [03:30] years was shocked by how quickly the [03:32] coverage pivoted from one about the [03:34] barbarity of Hamas's violence to one [03:37] about Israel's puditively [03:38] disproportionate [03:40] response. Um, and by soon I mean within [03:43] a week after the massacre, um, Israel [03:46] was already being accused of carrying [03:48] out or planning to carry out ethnic [03:50] cleansing or genocide. In fact, as we [03:53] documented at the time, there were 11 [03:56] pieces published at the Guardian Opeds [03:59] in the span of 13 days beginning on [04:04] September, I'm sorry, October 14th, [04:06] accusing Israel of those crimes. I'm [04:08] going to try I'm going to see if I can [04:09] share the screen so you can see um what [04:13] um a couple good examples. Um let me [04:17] just see. Share. [04:21] Okay, it's not really working for some [04:23] reason. [04:25] Share. No. Okay, it's not working. [04:28] Anyway, um I'm going to give you a [04:29] couple examples and we'll start with uh [04:32] someone who's been in the news lately, a [04:34] journalist, and I use that word lightly [04:35] by the name of Sarah Helm. Um she had [04:39] the honor of publishing the first post [04:42] October 7th uh oped in the Guardian. Um [04:46] again, this was October 14th. Um, the [04:49] title of it was Netanyahu told 1.1 [04:52] million Palestinians they had 24 hours [04:54] to evacuate. What is that if not ethic [04:57] cleansing? Well, actually what that's [05:00] called, of course, to those who don't [05:02] look in the world to the world in the [05:05] way that Sarah Helm does, is that [05:07] Israel, even in the horrific and [05:09] traumatic aftermath of October 7th, was [05:11] still adhering to the rules of war by [05:13] evacuating uh Palestinian civilians um [05:17] before they launched attacks on Hamas [05:19] targets. So within a week, The Guardian [05:21] was already publishing an op-ed um [05:24] accusing Israel of ethic cleansing by [05:27] virtue of the fact that they were [05:28] evacuating civilians um from from Gaza [05:32] in advance of a attack on Hamas targets. [05:37] And you know, as you you know, you've [05:39] been following Sarah Helm, that doesn't [05:40] surprise you. Um another article by [05:43] Chris McGriel on uh the 16th of October. [05:47] Chris McGreel, I jokingly refer to as [05:49] the outlet's unofficial anti-Israel [05:54] lobby um correspondent because he's [05:56] obsessed with the Israel lobby. He wrote [05:58] an article titled, "The language being [06:00] used to describe Palestinians is [06:02] genocidal." [06:04] As many of you probably already know, [06:06] the language he's talking about was [06:08] based on completely distorted quotes [06:10] from Israeli leaders. Um, Yo Gallant, [06:13] the defense minister, of course, um, [06:15] described uh, Hamas as human animals. [06:19] That was twisted around uh, as him [06:22] saying that all Palestinians are [06:24] animals. Um, so, you know, right away, [06:28] the Guardian does what the Guardian does [06:30] best. And it wasn't just the Guardian, [06:31] as you'll see. They were completely [06:33] turning the story from one about um [06:36] unmentionable barbarity against uh [06:39] Israeli men, women, and children and [06:40] foreigners to one about genocide. [06:43] Uh also on the 16th, Ken Roth, a former [06:47] director of HRW, wrote, "Israel appears [06:48] to be on the verge of ethnic cleansing [06:50] in Gaza." [06:51] And on October 18th, they published a [06:54] piece um titled uh we're anti-Zionist [06:58] Jews and we see genocide unfolding in [07:00] Gaza. So, uh, you know, it it's [07:03] important to note that the IDF land [07:07] invasion of Gaza didn't begin until [07:09] October 24th or 25th. So, the I I mean, [07:13] the idea that, you know, there was uh [07:16] some intellectually honest analysis uh [07:20] within those two weeks that pointed to [07:22] genocide is just absurd. I mean, these [07:25] were people that were doubling down on [07:27] their bias and they couldn't imagine any [07:29] scenario whereby Palestinians should be [07:32] framed as the perpetrators. So, they [07:35] engaged in this genocide inversion. [07:38] Um, but again, like I said, it's not [07:40] just the Guardian. [07:42] On October 11th, Financial Times US [07:44] editor Edward Loose absolved Palestinian [07:48] terrorists of responsibility for the [07:50] massacre, writing that, and I quote, [07:52] "Netanyahu's Israel has starved [07:55] nonviolent Palestinian alternatives." I [07:57] want to read that again because this is [07:59] such a telling uh use of words. [08:03] Netanyahu's Israel starved nonviolent [08:06] Palestinian alternatives. So he's [08:08] basically saying, and this is the [08:09] Financial Times, this is a global [08:11] outlook that has a out outlet that has a [08:14] reputation, a really good reputation. [08:16] It's not the Guardian. Um, uh, and he [08:19] was basically saying, what choice did [08:22] Palestinians have other than to engage [08:24] in what they did on October 7th? I I [08:27] mean I find that just a unbelievable [08:29] illustration of exactly the dynamic that [08:31] I'm talking about that you know there is [08:34] a international uh you know kind of echo [08:37] chamber within the mainstream media not [08:39] just the British media that you know [08:41] they just simply had to frame what [08:43] happened as simply a Palestinian [08:46] reaction to Israeli oppression. Uh, [08:49] Financial Times contributor Adaf Suif [08:52] literally justified Hamas's massacre in [08:54] an October 7th retweet before publishing [08:57] an op-ed at the outlet a couple of weeks [08:59] later, accusing the Jewish state of [09:00] treacherously using the attacks as a [09:03] pretext to carry out their long desired [09:06] wish to empty Gaza entirely of their [09:08] population. Um, that is, the focus [09:11] wasn't on the Israeli victims. It was on [09:14] those treacherous Israelis who were [09:16] using the horrible attack to carry out [09:19] their long genocidal plan. Fancial Times [09:22] contributor Kim Gatas on the morning of [09:23] October 7th posted on X that the Hamas [09:26] attack was a response to worsening [09:28] unbearable oppression under occupation. [09:31] Again, no sense of moral responsibility [09:33] by the Hamas terrorists who crossed the [09:36] border into a sovereign state and [09:39] engaged in a massacre that was um [09:42] unparalleled. Um, Adam, can I just um [09:45] ask if you want to share, could you [09:47] maybe just try again? I just tweaked a [09:49] setting. [09:51] >> Okay. [09:53] >> May help. [09:55] >> It doesn't seem to be working. Like I [09:58] hit share [10:02] and it gives me uh share. [10:05] No, it it it doesn't give me that [10:07] option. Uh wait, let me just see. Hold [10:09] on. Maybe Oh, I see. Wait, wait. Is it [10:11] on the Zoom? uh link is on the Zoom. [10:15] >> It's on the Zoom screen at the bottom. [10:17] >> Oh, okay. Oh, I see. All right. I see. [10:23] >> All right. Thank you. [10:25] >> So, you're familiar with The Private [10:28] Eye, right? Satirical, edgy, you know, [10:30] quickwitted. [10:32] >> Uh now, this was published um on October [10:36] 18th. This was their first edition uh [10:38] following the massacre. And you know, in [10:42] case you can't see it, his warning, this [10:43] magazine may contain some criticism of [10:45] the Israeli government and may suggest [10:46] that killing everyone in Gaza as revenge [10:50] for Hamas atrocities may not be a good [10:52] long-term solution to the problems of [10:55] the region. a more arrogant um immoral [10:59] and insensitive [11:01] uh poke at Israel when we were still [11:04] traumatized and we were still um burying [11:07] our dead, finding uh you know, microscop [11:11] microscopic traces of our dead and um [11:14] really in mourning, you know, you really [11:16] could would have to try hard to find a [11:18] more insensitive uh take on this [11:21] massacre. Um you know, they found it [11:23] funny. They they they let's use the [11:26] massacre to poke fun uh and to accuse [11:29] Israel of killing every dozen. All [11:32] right. So, let's go to um Channel 4. [11:36] During a Channel 4 news video report on [11:38] October 8th, the reporter at the Israel [11:40] border, his name is I might might be [11:42] butchering this name, Sukund Carmani, [11:45] claimed that anger at Israel's brutal, [11:48] bloody occupation and blockade of Gaza [11:51] helped fuel the awful violence inflicted [11:53] by Palestinian militants. Now, again, I [11:57] I I, you know, been doing this for 16 [11:59] years. I keep on going that going back [12:01] to that just to give you a sense that [12:03] you know even I wasn't prepared for this [12:06] level of cruelty this letter letter [12:08] level of inversion. Um you know these [12:10] are reporters that were um covering this [12:14] absolute barbaric attack and they [12:19] seem to have this like instinctual need [12:21] to frame it in a way that well what [12:23] choice do Palestinians have? So, it [12:24] wasn't just the Guardian. Um, it was uh [12:27] lot it was, you know, outlets all across [12:29] the board. All right. So, why is that? [12:32] Why was there this really grotesque [12:35] reaction in the, you know, from October [12:38] 7th to uh through October 21st when, you [12:42] know, we're always told that Israel had [12:44] the world's sympathy and toll. Well, the [12:46] truth is, I monitor the media every day. [12:48] I can tell you that there really wasn't [12:50] any period of time when the mainstream [12:51] media um the British mainstream media [12:53] had collective sympathy for Israel even [12:56] in the first few days. Um there might [12:58] have been some world leaders that um you [13:01] know made some appropriate comments but [13:02] there you know we we you know we lost [13:05] their sympathy from day one. All right. [13:07] But to get to the heart of the matter, [13:09] why is there this unwillingness, this [13:12] inability to hold Palestines [13:13] responsible, there was a really [13:15] important Wall Street Journal oped by a [13:18] Israeli academic I think you all should [13:20] read more of. He's underrated. He has [13:22] some of the best analyses of the [13:25] conflict that I've read. He wrote, I'm [13:28] going to quote, "Western activists for [13:30] Palestinians are dedicated to two nearly [13:32] theological precepts. that Israel is [13:34] evil and more importantly for this [13:37] conversation that no Palestinian action [13:39] is ever connected to any Palestinian [13:42] outcome. And you know, if I were to [13:45] summarize my main point, it would be [13:47] that that you know, no matter what [13:51] Palestinian decisions are made by their [13:52] leaders and their leadership, um [13:55] rejecting peace three times in 2000, [13:57] 2001 and 2008, launching it into Fod and [14:01] then October 7th massacre that there was [14:04] no understanding that that Palestinian [14:07] action would result in a bad Palestinian [14:10] outcome. Now, Hamas's gruesome attack, [14:13] he concluded, posed a threat to this [14:14] worldview. And the only way to resolve [14:16] the cognitive dissonance was by [14:18] heightening Israel's imagined [14:19] malevolence. So that the terrorist [14:21] atrocities didn't trigger a recoiling [14:24] from the cause in whose name they were [14:26] carried out. Instead, they led to an [14:27] even greater revulsion at the victim. [14:31] It's this latter point that no Palestian [14:33] action is ever connected to a Palestian [14:35] outcome that's the focus of today's [14:37] presentation. [14:40] You know, after 34 months, uh I guess [14:42] it's more now. I guess it's after some [14:44] 40 months of monitoring British media [14:45] coverage of the war war. I'm still [14:47] shocked by the degree to which outlets [14:49] continue to erase the decisions by [14:50] Hamas. The party that started the war [14:53] and whose cruel decision not to [14:54] surrender has co uh caused untold [14:58] Palestinian suffering. And I want to [14:59] reiterate that point. Hamas could have [15:02] if they wanted to at any point since [15:03] October 8th surrendered. [15:06] And by surrendering they would have [15:08] saved um tens of thousands of [15:10] Palestinian lives and untold suffering. [15:12] They are the ones that made a decision [15:15] again that word decision to fight this [15:17] forever war against Israel. A war that [15:20] they knew they couldn't win. [15:22] Yet since October 8th, Hamas basically [15:25] has disappeared in the news coverage. Uh [15:27] and this is something that you know I've [15:29] been monitoring the media constantly [15:31] since that day. And it's like Hamas [15:33] ceased to exist. only Israeli actions [15:36] are normally covered. [15:38] Um, so for instance, their cynical, [15:40] immoral, and illegal use of human [15:42] shields has been erased. The summary [15:44] execution of Palestinian dissident and [15:46] other human rights abuses by the terror [15:48] group aren't covered. It's as if there's [15:50] just no interest in anything that Hamas [15:53] does. The the focus, the lens, the laser [15:56] has always been on Israeli actions. [16:01] Okay. the I would say the eraser of [16:03] Palestinian responsibility not only [16:05] grossly distorts the public's [16:06] understanding of the Israeli Palestinian [16:08] conflict but also represents what's [16:10] what's been referred to as the bigotry [16:12] of low expectations or liberal racism. [16:16] Both these terms represent a way of [16:18] describing the refusal to expect certain [16:20] minorities or groups considered rightly [16:23] or wrongly as oppressed or disadvantaged [16:25] to meet the same standards of moral [16:27] behavior demanded of all their people. [16:30] All individuals have choices and to [16:32] judge their behavior by a lower standard [16:34] than we judge others denies their very [16:36] humanity which represents racism at its [16:39] most basic form. So I've often argued [16:41] that I think at the end of the day media [16:43] coverage which um infantileizes [16:46] Palestinians and treats them like [16:48] children is on top of everything else I [16:51] think an expression of racism their [16:53] racism toward Palestinians. when you [16:54] treat a grown adult um as a child as if [16:58] they have no option. They have, you [17:00] know, no choice. They have um I think [17:02] that's a expression of racism. But then [17:05] there's also the racism of holding Jews [17:07] to a higher standard as Palestinians, [17:09] which is I I would argue anti-semitic. [17:12] So I think you know between the lines [17:15] and I think what we're seeing is a [17:17] reflection of this I would say this [17:20] internalized bigotry towards not just [17:22] Jews but also towards Palestinians. [17:25] Now one of the major elements of [17:27] anti-Israel media bias isn't about [17:28] Israel at all. It concerns the media's [17:30] coverage of Palestinians, or more [17:31] precisely, its failure to devote real [17:34] coverage to Palestinian affairs, [17:36] including the destructive decisions by [17:37] Palestinian leaders that hurt ordinary [17:39] Palestinians and serves as enormous [17:41] impediments to peace. This narrow [17:43] framing of Palestinians and merely [17:46] victims, that is, their unwillingness to [17:48] critically scrutinize Palestinian [17:50] society with the same powerful lens that [17:52] they apply to Israeli society, denies [17:54] news consumers vital insight into the [17:56] region as well as insight to the root [17:58] cause of the conflict. [18:04] Now, the eraser of Palestinian [18:05] responsibility not only grossly distorts [18:07] the public's understanding of the [18:08] conflict, but also represents what's [18:10] been referred to as the bigotry of low [18:12] expectations. That is the refusal to [18:14] expect members of groups deemed rightly [18:16] or wrongly as oppressed to meet the same [18:19] standards of moral behavior set for most [18:20] people. You know, as we know, you know, [18:23] western liberal democracy or western [18:24] democracy is based on the sacred rights [18:27] of the individual that um it's the [18:29] individual that has uh you know, has [18:32] guaranteed rights and that they don't [18:35] represent a group, they represent [18:36] themselves. um by putting certain groups [18:40] in this category of um you know [18:42] immutable victim or immutable oppressor [18:46] I I think it's not only distorts the [18:48] media coverage but it's also [18:49] inconsistent I think with the western [18:51] liberal tradition Anglo-American liberal [18:53] tradition now by contrast to the this [18:56] liberal tradition believes that all [18:57] individuals have choices and I think if [18:59] there's you know one thing that my [19:02] writing of late has insisted is that [19:04] individuals have choices and they should [19:06] be held morally accountable regardless [19:08] of their race, religious, ethnicity, or [19:10] or any other mere accent of birth. [19:15] Examples of denying Palestinians agency [19:17] even before October 7th include media [19:20] claims about the cause of the second [19:22] tifata, [19:23] Palestinian incitement to violence, [19:26] Palestinian anti-semitism, and the rise [19:29] of Hamas after Israel's withdrawal from [19:31] Gaza. [19:33] Now I think the second tap is extremely [19:35] instructive because and this is a [19:37] timeline that you rarely ever read when [19:39] they even mentioned it. It erupted [19:41] during the height of the peace process [19:42] and right after Prime Minister Ahoud [19:44] Barack offered Arafat a state. Now a [19:47] state now this context is crucial [19:49] because the inifat which as you know is [19:51] a 5-year orchestrated Palestinian [19:52] campaign of violence targeting Israeli [19:54] civilians contradicts the mainstream [19:56] media narrative that Palestinians engage [19:58] in violence over frustration with the [20:00] failure of peace. [20:02] The second defat began at the same time [20:04] palatans were being offered a state [20:06] literally around the same time. Uh and I [20:09] think that is really important because I [20:12] think you know a lot of people that I [20:13] didn't make ali ali until 2009 and I [20:16] wasn't following the conflict that [20:17] closely but a lot of Israelis who were [20:19] living here before I did say that the [20:21] second tahada traumatized a generation [20:23] of Palestinians I'm sorry a generation [20:26] of Israelis and soured them on the idea [20:28] of peace. They thought that well you [20:30] know if we're going to offer them two [20:32] states and not only do they reject it [20:33] but they engage in this 4 and a half [20:35] year campaign of violence then what [20:37] exactly are we negotiating? So the [20:40] Palestinian decisions again I want to [20:42] emphasate emphasize this because it's so [20:43] rarely written about Palestine decisions [20:46] help produce an Israeli reaction yet to [20:50] the inifat yet the inifat is usually [20:52] attributed falsely to then foreign [20:53] minister Ariel Chiron's visit to the [20:55] temple mount. However, Palestinian [20:58] leaders later admitted that the Inifata [21:00] was pre-planned by Arafat and that [21:02] Chiron's visit was just the pretext. But [21:05] from purely rational standpoint, how can [21:07] one Israeli leader's peaceful visit for [21:10] 20 minutes to Judaism's holiest site, [21:12] the Temple Mount, be the cause of a [21:14] subsequent 4-year campaign of [21:16] Palestinian violence? It just doesn't [21:17] make sense. [21:21] So if you're not prepared to seriously [21:23] discuss the degree to which [21:24] anti-semitism and this is getting back [21:26] to one of the um categories of media [21:29] malfeasants is their absence their [21:31] eraser of anti-semitism. If you're not [21:33] prepared to discuss the degree to which [21:34] anti-semitism anti-Jewish hatred um [21:37] within Palestinian society uh has a [21:40] unbelievably injurious impact to the [21:42] conflict. You know all you have to do is [21:46] um you know you're ignoring multiple [21:48] polls. one of which um was uh by ADL, [21:52] another by Pew showing that 93% of [21:55] Palestinians hold anti-semitic views. [21:57] And to put that in context, that's the [21:59] highest percentage of any uh group in [22:02] the world. I mean, higher than Egypt, [22:03] higher than Syria. Um even within the [22:05] Arab world, which of course has the [22:07] highest rates of anti-semitism, the [22:09] Palestinians have the most anti-semitic [22:11] views. So in addition to this toxic [22:13] impact on their relationship with [22:14] Israel, a intellectual by the name of [22:17] Walter Russell me has argued [22:19] persuasively that so society's [22:20] enthralled to anti-semitic [22:22] conspiratorial explanations for why [22:24] things go wrong will never truly [22:26] understand how the world really works [22:28] and what steps they must take as [22:30] collectives or individuals to solve the [22:32] real world problems. that is he argues [22:35] Walter Russell me has that the [22:37] acceptance within a society of con [22:39] anti-semitic conspiratorial theories on [22:42] cause and effect is a tell that a [22:45] society is not ready for progress that [22:47] they can't um progress to a more [22:51] productive government that you know [22:52] there's something intrinsic in the [22:54] discourse within that society that [22:56] prevents rational conversations about [22:58] the about the serious problems that they [23:01] have um if you think Jews are to blame, [23:03] chances are you're not going to do a [23:04] very good job of um running your [23:07] government. [23:10] Uh also, your reporting which took [23:11] Palestine seriously as moral actors will [23:13] continually cite the anti-Jewish racism [23:16] as one of the causes of the conflict. I [23:18] would argue again that there's really no [23:19] way to have an honest conversation about [23:22] the Israeli Palestinian conflict without [23:24] um understanding the the role of [23:26] incitement, anti-semitic incitement [23:28] plays. All you have to do is look at the [23:29] site of Palestinian Media Watch every [23:31] day and see what the mainstream media [23:33] doesn't report. That is, you know, [23:35] within school books, within mosques, [23:36] within Palestinian state media [23:39] organizations, um it's just um [23:42] continually a a continual anti-semitic [23:44] conspiracy. [23:48] All right. So, uh, you know, incitement [23:51] of violence, um, as, uh, you know, I'm [23:54] sure you know, in Palestinian mosques [23:55] and state controlled media, in school [23:58] textbooks and comments by Palestinian [23:59] officials and messages sent routinely to [24:01] Palestinians as one of the explicit [24:03] encouraging terrorism against Jews, quad [24:05] Jews. Now, conversations about two [24:08] states, which discuss root causes for [24:10] the conflict, rarely includes [24:12] Palestinian leaders inculcation of hate [24:14] and their glorification of violence. Nor [24:16] do they ever explain why a government [24:18] which truly desires peace with Israel [24:20] would devote so much financial and [24:22] political resources in an effort to [24:24] convince Palestinians that Jews are [24:26] their enemy and that jihad is the [24:28] highest call. [24:30] You know, Israel's painful withdrawal [24:32] from Gaza, again, another issue that's [24:34] rarely spoken about. um you know where a [24:38] a plurality of Palestinians in [24:39] legislative elections right after [24:41] Israel's withdrawal voted for the [24:43] terrorist group Hamas which soon [24:45] violently wrestled control of the [24:46] territory from Fatah which of course [24:48] resulted in thousands upon thousands of [24:50] rockets being fired at Israeli civilians [24:53] in several rounds of war and eventually [24:55] resulting in the October 7th massacre. [24:57] Now, this is important because it [24:58] contradicts the assumption that one, [25:01] Israeli control of territory is the main [25:03] obstacle to peace and number two that [25:05] Israeli withdrawals will necessarily [25:07] lead to peace. [25:09] It's not a matter of whether or not you [25:11] support two states. You know, as an [25:12] organization, we don't take a position [25:14] on anything like that, but it's [25:16] impossible to understand Israeli [25:18] behavior without understanding the twin [25:21] traumas of the uh of the um second [25:25] inifat and of the results of the [25:27] withdrawal from Gaza and to a lesser [25:30] degree the results of the withdrawal [25:32] from Lebanon. So, I think it's vitally [25:35] important and urgent that journalists, [25:36] commentators, and the public cease to [25:38] see Palestinians nearly merely as [25:40] victims. um and as mere abstractions. [25:44] And I think the ultimate irony or cruel [25:46] irony is that pro Palestinian activists [25:48] and supporters in the media sometimes [25:50] claim that all they desire for [25:52] Palestinians is to be humanized while [25:55] simultaneously imagining that the normal [25:57] laws of causality, what's been described [26:00] as the reliable connection between good [26:02] choices and good outcomes and bad [26:05] choices and bad outcomes don't apply to [26:08] their situation. [26:10] A more dehumanizing and racist portrayal [26:12] of Palestinians, I would argue, would be [26:14] hard to find. [26:16] Thank you. [26:20] >> Okay, Adam. Um, thank you very much for [26:24] that. Um, we've had a couple of [26:29] questions have come in, so I'm going to, [26:33] um, put one of them to you. [26:37] Um we've heard from um one of our [26:40] audience um Edward Moss who has um [26:45] really asking the question um that [26:48] should the point about who the real [26:50] colonialists are be be stressed more and [26:54] his point is that um Gaza you know it it [26:58] it first appears extensively in the fa [27:01] as one of the five primary cities of the [27:03] of the Philistines. It's famously [27:05] associated with Samson's um imprisonment [27:10] um and the Jewish how the Jewish [27:11] presence in Gaza spans over 3,000 years [27:15] um and that the last major Jewish [27:17] presence in Gaza ended prior to modern [27:19] times. Um and and that following the the [27:24] Arab riots of 1929 and the 1948 War of [27:28] Independence um Jewish residents were [27:31] forced to leave or were expelled. How do [27:34] do you feel that making that point has [27:36] any merit in [27:39] in helping to to support Israel's case? [27:45] >> Well, look, you know, when let me answer [27:47] let me answer that in a roundabout way. [27:49] When I'm asked what Zionism is by people [27:51] who truly don't know, I just say it's [27:53] the right of view to continue living in [27:55] their historic homeland. Um, [27:58] now contrast that with what I think is [28:00] one of the kind of less examined um, [28:05] eternal assumptions by most media [28:07] outlets or that is they buy into this [28:10] really intellectually weak idea that is [28:12] Israel is a settler colonial state. Now [28:15] to to buy into that you would need [28:17] necessarily to erase the Jewish in [28:21] indigenousness to the land or you'd have [28:23] to erase thousands of years of Jewish [28:25] history. Um, so and I think you you also [28:28] see reporting that it refers erroneously [28:32] to Palestinians as the indigenous group [28:34] that was displaced by um, you know, [28:37] settler colonialists. Um, when in fact, [28:39] of course, you know, Jews who immigrated [28:41] to Israel in the late 19th and 20th [28:44] century were victims of oppression and [28:47] they were escaping persecution. Um, so [28:49] the idea that, you know, like what was [28:52] the country that was settling um, Jews [28:54] in Palestine? So, yeah, I mean, I think [28:57] that, you know, we we believe in, you [29:00] know, the perfect is the enemy of the [29:01] good, right? And I'm beyond cynical [29:04] enough that I really doubt that most [29:05] media outlets will suddenly take an [29:08] interest in, you know, Jewish history in [29:10] the land of Israel and even take [29:12] seriously our rights within Judea and [29:14] Samaria. Um but what we do expect is [29:18] them not to erase our um you know the [29:21] fact that uh you know Israel that [29:24] Judaism was born in Jerusalem. Um just [29:27] to give you a perfect example um we even [29:30] got the Guardian to correct a article [29:33] that completely erased um the Temple [29:36] Mount as um not only the holiest site in [29:39] Judaism but erased it as a site [29:42] completely referring to the area as you [29:44] know as the Alamos compound um and you [29:48] they even used words such as Jews were [29:50] storming the temp the Axamas compound. [29:54] So, and even the Guardian was kind of [29:56] embarrassed because they were contacted [29:58] by somebody who I won't say who, but [30:00] somebody um with a really good [30:01] reputation who said like, you know, this [30:03] isn't about anti-Israel bias. This is [30:05] about a central component of Jewish [30:07] identity. You know, when I Davin and [30:09] Schul, you know, um you know, you can't [30:12] escape talking about Jerusalem or [30:14] Israel. It's I think mentioned 25,00 in [30:17] the Tanakh. So while I agree with the [30:21] question that you know it's really [30:22] important to talk about um the Jewish um [30:25] you know roots in the land and that we [30:27] are in intrinsically connected to to the [30:29] land of Israel. Um you know I I think um [30:33] you need to pick and choose your battles [30:34] carefully. [30:37] >> Okay. Thank you for that. Um we've also [30:40] got um an a question from a lady by the [30:45] name of Stina. Uh, good evening Stina. [30:48] Um, and she is asking, "How do we [30:51] strategically play the enemy at their [30:53] own game and get the truth from the [30:56] Israeli perspective into the general [30:58] public consciousness?" I feel like [31:01] that's the sort of $6 million question [31:04] >> um that plagues that is is is in our [31:08] minds quite often. Um, [31:12] >> look, there's no I'm I'm a very an I'm [31:14] very against the silver bullet theory of [31:16] Israel advocacy, meaning, you know, I [31:18] don't think there's one solution. Um, I [31:21] think we are fighting a extremely [31:23] difficult battle. Um, I also think that [31:25] if Israel's husband [31:31] still wouldn't matter. Um, I think we're [31:33] fighting not just pro Palestinian [31:36] activists, but I think we're fighting a [31:38] intellectual and academic culture um [31:41] that has planted ideas within people [31:44] that aren't academics or aren't [31:45] intellectuals and aren't even activists, [31:47] but they accept some of these ideas that [31:50] stem from Edward S that stem from uh [31:53] postcolonial theory. Um, so I think [31:56] there's a lot of really toxic bad ideas [31:59] kind of in the in the ecosphere, right? [32:01] Um, the only thing we can do is continue [32:03] to fight back every day. You know, like [32:06] one of the things about my job, um, as [32:08] disheartening as it is to read [32:10] mainstream media coverage of Israel and [32:12] just see lie after lie, distortion after [32:14] distortion, um, playing down [32:15] anti-semitism, it is empowering to fight [32:18] back. So, I would say this that, you [32:22] know, we shouldn't expect any victory [32:24] within the public sphere. like we're not [32:26] going to ever get to a point where um I [32:29] wish it was true, but like Cameron's [32:30] never going to go out of business [32:31] because there's no work to do, right? I [32:33] think this is a battle that my daughters [32:35] when they join the IDF, you know, [32:37] they're going to have to they'll be [32:38] fighting the same fights as IDF soldiers [32:40] today. I think um children in the [32:43] diaspora, Jewish children or pro-Israel [32:44] non-Jewish children are going to be [32:46] having to fight the battle online or [32:48] whatever social media um uh platform [32:51] exists. Then I I think we have to look [32:54] at this um as a really long war. Um a [32:58] war that's going to take generations and [33:01] um we can we should be able to get wins [33:03] where we can. Um, but let's never stop [33:05] fighting. And that's basically the only [33:07] we can do is um win by not losing. And [33:10] as long as we don't lose, as long as [33:12] there's continues to be a Jewish state, [33:14] as long as there's still organizations [33:15] like yours and like others that are [33:17] fighting against the the tide of [33:19] anti-ionist and anti-semitic hate, then, [33:22] you know, that's the only that that's [33:24] the best I think we can hope for is just [33:25] to keep fighting and remember what the [33:27] stakes are. [33:28] >> Yeah. No, 100%. Um 100%. Um, so whilst [33:33] we wait for some other questions to come [33:35] through, I've got a couple that I' I'd [33:36] like to put to you, um, if I may. So, [33:41] I know that that you know, much of your [33:43] work is sort of tingling the the British [33:47] media and, you know, looking at at [33:51] articles that misrepresent the fact. Um, [33:54] and you know, you you do sterling work. [33:58] Um, you yourself and your colleagues all [34:00] do absolutely sterling work. Um, let me [34:03] ask you, when you've challenged a report [34:06] for erasing Palestinian agency, um, what [34:10] response from an editor surprised you [34:13] the most? [34:14] And does it reveal that they've had a [34:17] misunderstanding of the topic that [34:20] they're covering or a deliberate [34:22] editorial choice? [34:25] >> Okay. I rarely I've never you I've never [34:28] brought up the idea of a racing palace [34:30] agency to a journalist or editor because [34:32] that's not really something that's [34:33] actionable, right? I mean, uh I don't [34:36] like that. See, we're this is a [34:39] presentation that's based on my years of [34:43] thinking through what at the what is at [34:45] the heart of these errors, right? What's [34:46] at the heart of all these mistakes, [34:47] these mischaracterizations that we [34:50] complain about and get corrections [34:51] about. Um, so I think the more than just [34:55] victims presentation and things I've [34:57] written in the past and you can [34:59] certainly see me uh there's you know I [35:01] gave a talk to the anti-semitism [35:03] conference in Hifa last year where I [35:05] expanded on this but um so what I'm [35:09] separate two things I think there is the [35:11] communication that we have with [35:12] journalists and editors and complaint [35:14] forms we fill out every day and but [35:16] those are merely okay here's your [35:18] argument here are the facts here are the [35:20] sources to prove of those facts. Um, [35:23] will you please correct? Now, mostly [35:24] they don't, but we have gotten hundreds [35:26] upon hundreds of corrections each year. [35:28] So, you know, we're constantly in a [35:30] battle to get them to make their [35:31] horrible article a little less horrible, [35:33] you know. Um, but, you know, I I to the [35:37] degree that we're going to have an [35:38] impact on their understanding of what it [35:41] means that they're really treating [35:44] Palestinians like children, right? That [35:45] they're infantileizing them is a much [35:48] longer fight. So, I'm setting my goal a [35:50] little more modest. I want people within [35:52] our community and by our community I [35:53] mean the pro-Israel community um uh in [35:56] the UK in the US and in in western [35:58] states to understand what is at the root [36:02] of this right and I think only when you [36:04] can understand what what's at the root [36:05] of this is that you can begin to fight [36:07] back in the cognitive sphere right the [36:09] world of ideas I mean I I think you know [36:11] ideas rule the world right so you know [36:14] while we will continue to push back on [36:16] their factual errors which are constant [36:19] um I think we need to um I think this is [36:21] part of a important conversations by [36:24] which we understand why it is that every [36:27] article I know I read in the Financial [36:29] Times, The Guardian, The Independent, [36:30] The New Statesman, uh BBC, Channel 4 is [36:34] going to have the same narrative, like [36:36] the same basic story. That's because [36:38] that's the only story they know to tell [36:40] is one a binary moral tale of Israeli [36:43] oppression and Palestinian victimhood. [36:45] So, um I think we can do both. I think [36:48] we can fight the factual battle as best [36:50] we can appealing to their sense of [36:51] reason and there are some reasonable [36:53] editors and some reasonable journalists [36:55] while at the same time um understanding [36:57] the big picture. So this presentation is [36:59] more about the big picture than it is [37:01] about the nitty-gritty of com of how to [37:04] get um you know how to complain in a way [37:06] that gets results. [37:09] >> Great. Thank you. Interesting um yeah [37:11] perspective. Um we have another [37:14] gentleman who has kind of um kind of [37:18] question but also a statement. Um Philip [37:22] Nalpenis [37:23] um he he says hasn't kamas played their [37:26] media hand extremely well way better [37:29] than Israel. I think we can all agree [37:32] that you know they have. They they've [37:34] manipulated the world uh you know to to [37:37] to believe what what they want the world [37:40] to believe. Um but if you if you could [37:43] touch on that. [37:44] >> Yeah, look that's certainly true. Um but [37:50] you know I would argue this um you know [37:53] Sinoir [37:54] you know who I would describe as an evil [37:57] genius. I mean evil speaks for itself [37:59] but I think he understood the west [38:01] better than the west understands itself. [38:03] Um, and he knows he knows what buttons [38:06] to push and their media their social [38:08] media department and their their uh PR [38:10] department um knew knows exactly what [38:13] buttons to push. Um, but I don't see [38:17] that as um, okay, kudos to Hamas. I see [38:20] that as I think it's an indictment of [38:22] the Western media and Western [38:24] commentary, right? the fact that they're [38:26] going for it, that they're being um [38:28] fooled by this ridiculous narrative [38:31] being pushed by um by Hamas, right? I [38:34] mean, ultim, you know, I I talk a lot [38:36] about agency, right? And people being [38:37] responsible for their actions and for [38:39] the decisions. Well, you know, Hamas's [38:42] PR strategy wouldn't be successful if um [38:44] media outlets didn't buy into it, right? [38:47] So again, like Hamas is a uh genocidal [38:51] anti-Semitic organization that if they [38:54] had the capacity, they would commit [38:55] October 7ths every day. We can't control [38:58] that, right? That's a form of [39:00] anti-Semitic insanity. It's um it's [39:02] barbarism. But, you know, we certainly [39:05] have to within the West um recognize [39:08] that, you know, and name and shame [39:10] people that fall into the ridiculous um [39:13] stunts, right? the stunts about famine, [39:16] the stunts about journalists being [39:17] killed. Um, you know, at the end of the [39:19] day, my eyeire is not towards Hamas. I [39:21] don't hold Hamas to any standard at all. [39:23] They're, you know, they're a terrorist [39:24] group. But I I think that people like, [39:28] um, Jeremy Bowen, right, the [39:29] international editor of BBC and and [39:31] people of his ilk that, you know, fancy [39:33] themselves sophisticated ariodite um, [39:36] you know, reporters. The fact that [39:38] they've fallen for such a crude public [39:40] relations campaign, I think is an [39:42] indictment of them. And I think we need [39:44] to continue to name and shame them. That [39:46] that's where the um eyeire should be [39:48] directed at. [39:51] >> Okay. Well, thank you for that one. Um I [39:54] can see that our our chairman Roger has [39:56] got his hand up. So Roger, do you want [39:58] to put a question for Adam? [40:01] >> Uh yes, I very much do. Adam, thank you [40:04] very much both. [40:04] >> You get the special treatment as you're [40:06] our chairman. [40:08] >> Thank you. Um can you hear me? [40:11] >> Yes, we can. So Adam, as an optimist, [40:15] uh I feel that the success or the [40:19] continued success of Abraham Accords is [40:22] our possibly one way out of this [40:25] situation because if the Arabs become [40:28] our friends, then the Western Europeans [40:33] cannot continue to denigrate us [40:37] continually and with their with their [40:39] narratives. Uh what do you think of [40:41] that? as being as being our solution. [40:45] >> Well, again, um I first let me say yes, [40:47] you're right. I mean, Abraham Accords is [40:49] something that kind of caught me off [40:50] guard, right? I didn't see that coming [40:51] when it happened. Um so, I think there [40:54] is reason to be optimistic about [40:56] Israel's relationship with um moderate [40:58] Gulf allies. Of course, I use the word [41:00] moderate cautiously. However, I still [41:03] don't see that translating into [41:05] Palestinian society. Um, you know, I [41:08] talked before, right, that there needs [41:10] to be even within these autocratic Gulf [41:12] states, right? I think, um, the [41:14] leadership decided that they had so much [41:16] more to gain by normalizing relations [41:19] with Israel than they had to gain by [41:22] continuing to side with the [41:24] Palestinians. So, they kind of, you [41:26] know, made a decision based on what's in [41:29] their long-term national security and [41:31] economic interests. But I think we have [41:33] to also, you know, realize that that [41:37] model can only be replicated so far, [41:39] right? Um I I just don't see for [41:42] instance Qatar or the Palestinian [41:44] Authority or Hamas um or um other like [41:48] more, you know, more radical regimes [41:50] embracing the Abraham Accords. I think [41:52] if they embrace the Abraham Accords, [41:54] they would have nothing to do each day, [41:55] right? I mean I you know very it's been [41:58] said I think persuasively that um and [42:01] I've said this on X sometimes cheekily [42:03] sometimes not that I think the [42:05] Palestinian cause is a bit of a cult. I [42:07] mean, it's kind of an all-consuming [42:09] almost has a religious dimension to it [42:11] that everything is connected to the [42:13] Palestinian uh movement, right? So, I [42:16] mean, at the end of the day, really, [42:17] what would Palestinian leaders have to [42:19] say um if they abandoned their um you [42:23] know, if they abandoned their eternal [42:24] fight against Israel and then had to [42:26] take care of things like you know, [42:28] making sure the buses run on time, [42:29] making sure that the trash is collected. [42:31] Um, so I guess what I'm saying is that [42:34] the Abraham Accords is one of the most [42:37] uh hopeful episodes in, you know, in my [42:40] re in since I made Aliha, right? But I I [42:43] think there's a limit to what degree [42:45] that can be replicated in other [42:47] countries and other territories. [42:50] >> Yeah. No, I agree with that. But I think [42:52] that they would be occupied if if more [42:55] states and 57 Arab states if even 20 of [42:58] them were to sign up the you know the [43:00] Abraham Accords and these Palestinian [43:02] cause would would kind of lose favor uh [43:06] lose support and people would start [43:08] forgetting about them. That's that's my [43:10] hope and they would therefore have to if [43:13] they get no support from Qatar from Iran [43:17] then they're going to die out. They [43:19] won't die out by Israel bombing them, [43:21] but they will die out by being starved [43:22] of of arms and and uh and people. [43:26] >> I think you made a great you make a [43:27] great point. You that certainly is [43:28] reason for optimism. Yeah, definitely. [43:31] >> Okay. [43:32] >> Thank you. [43:34] >> Um okay, so we've got a couple of people [43:36] with their hands up and I've got one [43:38] question here from um Richard Galba. So, [43:42] I'm going to put that to you first, [43:44] Adam, and then I'll get to um Jeffrey [43:46] and Eva who have both got their hands [43:48] up. Um, so Richard Richard asked um [43:52] Adam, do you ever refer to the 1988 for [43:55] us charter, which is quite explicit in [43:58] their aims? Um, openly anti-semitic. [44:00] Article 7 calls for Muslims to kill Jews [44:03] wherever they find them and for the [44:05] destruction of Israel. Um, and also why [44:09] does nobody ever reference the Muslim [44:11] country of Egypt which also borders [44:13] Gaza? [44:16] >> Okay. Well, there's two questions. Um, [44:18] we mention it a lot. I mean, there was, [44:20] you know, when I'm writing a post, [44:22] right, and I say something that really [44:25] should be such like a, you know, a [44:27] universally understood concept that um, [44:30] they're very charter. Hamas is very [44:31] chartered, which by the way, they never [44:33] revoked. Um, you know, there was a [44:35] western version that they put out in [44:38] 2017 that was supposed to be uh show [44:41] their more moderating face, but the [44:42] charter in 1980 still hasn't been [44:44] revoked. So that's my stand to you know [44:47] um source when I mention just in passing [44:50] that they're an extremist anti-semitic [44:51] organization that um incites the murder [44:54] of Jews quad Jews and that in their [44:56] charter you know cites the uh forgery of [44:59] the protocols of the elders of Zion as [45:01] proof of Jewish treachery. I do think [45:04] however that you know if we were in a [45:06] more normal journalistic environment and [45:08] there was um you if they took [45:11] Palestinians seriously as agents of [45:12] their own fate I think every article [45:15] about October 7th and post October 7th [45:18] would mention not only that they're [45:20] prescribed terrorists which they are but [45:21] it's more than that that they're [45:23] operating from this 1988 manual that [45:27] pretty much guarantees that they were [45:29] going to attack you know Israel attack [45:31] Jews and there's I You know, there's so [45:34] many things that I, you know, you know, [45:36] that the media misses, right? And the [45:39] fact that we can't even get the media to [45:41] acknowledge that they're a prescribed [45:43] terrorist group, right? That they use [45:44] the word militant instead, um, shows you [45:48] how far we have to go. Um, but I think [45:50] in a more normal, sane media [45:52] environment, they would mention their [45:54] charter in each article because it's [45:56] probably the one thing you need to know [45:59] to understand, you know, what they [46:01] really want. They say what they really [46:02] want. They say it all the time. Um, and [46:05] they said it codified in their charter. [46:07] Um, and I forget there was a second [46:08] question that was not related to that. [46:14] >> Um, yes, just bear with me. Also, why [46:17] does nobody ever reference the Muslim [46:20] the state of Egypt which also borders [46:22] Gaza? [46:23] >> Well, then they would have to admit that [46:26] Egypt hasn't allowed um a significant [46:29] number of Gazan refugees into their [46:31] country, right? Right. And that kind of [46:33] um hurts the narrative that Israel has [46:35] locked um Palestinians in Gaza into a [46:39] prison camp, right? I mean uh you know [46:41] it's it's in fact not only has Egypt um [46:46] pretty much closed their border with [46:47] some exceptions since October 7th, but [46:50] any suggestion by Israel that you know [46:52] what, maybe it might be a good idea to [46:55] have a refuge um for Palestinian [46:57] civilians to go to so that they can [46:59] escape the war zone. that's framed as [47:02] ethnic cleansing, right? So whereas in [47:05] um you know in Ukraine for instance, [47:07] right, when uh Ukrainians are taken in [47:10] by other countries to escape the war, [47:12] that's considered humanitarian. But if [47:14] Israel suggests or if any Westerners [47:16] suggest that maybe a large number of [47:18] Palestinians should temporarily um be [47:21] allowed into Egypt um at least until the [47:24] war is over, then then that's considered [47:26] to be an act of ethic cleansing. But I [47:28] agree that Egypt um plays very heavily [47:31] in the calculus within the past few [47:33] years and that they um don't really get [47:35] their share of criticism or even [47:37] attention. [47:39] >> Thank you Adam. Um I'm going to go over [47:41] to you Jeffrey Rudikov. Can you please [47:44] unmute yourself Jeffrey? [47:47] >> I unmute. [47:49] >> Yeah. [47:50] >> This talk is so good. Uh uh how is it is [47:55] the recording available to me? number [47:57] one. [47:57] >> Uh, yes, it will. We will we will email [48:00] out a recording to everyone who's [48:01] registered for the event. But do you [48:03] have a question to put to Adam? [48:07] >> Uh, [48:10] uh, no, I'm fine. [48:11] >> Okay, have a think about it and we'll [48:13] come back to you. Thanks. [48:16] >> Okay, Eva, [48:18] can you unmute yourself, Eva? [48:22] >> Sorry, I thought I'd done it already. [48:23] >> No worries. If you'd like to put your [48:25] question straight to Adam. Yeah, I I [48:28] take all the points about the [48:30] Palestinian [48:32] Palestinians being completely let off [48:34] the hook by Western media and kind of [48:39] infantilized in the way that they're [48:41] reported. But a lot of people, Jews [48:45] especially have pointed to the role of [48:48] the Israeli government and particularly [48:51] uh Netanyao, Beng and Smodish in um you [48:57] know in in in exacerbating [49:00] the hatred overseas [49:03] uh well they've exacerbated all sorts of [49:05] problems within Israel as I'm sure you [49:07] must see if you're you've made aliyah. [49:09] but they also exacerbate the awfulness [49:13] of the way Israel is viewed and depicted [49:17] overseas. And do you think that a [49:20] different government, which fingers [49:22] crossed, as far as I'm concerned, will [49:24] happen soon, will make a difference in [49:28] um the perception of Israel abroad. [49:31] >> Yeah. Uh, first let me just preface my [49:33] answer by saying, you know, Cameron [49:35] doesn't take any position about [49:37] individual politicians in Israeli [49:38] politics, but I can tell you this is my [49:40] personal perspective. Yeah, I think [49:42] there's no question that Ben and [49:44] Smootrich and company um hurt the cause. [49:48] You know, they definitely hurt our case. [49:50] Um, and just thinking rationally, I [49:54] think if the next government um, doesn't [49:56] have a Bengier and a Smootrich, I think [49:59] that'll make our case easier. But at the [50:03] same time, you know, I I I'm really [50:06] under no um, you know, illusions that it [50:09] would change the calculus dramatically. [50:11] I think the uh story that media outlets [50:14] want to tell, they're going to continue [50:17] telling it and they might not have a [50:19] smotch or a bing beer um to help them [50:23] kind of reinforce their view, but I I [50:25] think they'll find some other avenues. [50:26] So again, speaking personally, yeah, I I [50:29] think that uh the individuals you just [50:32] mentioned really do hurt our cause and [50:34] as an Israeli um you know, I'm turned [50:36] off by their views, but I think the kind [50:39] of the overreaching perception within [50:42] the West and within the Western media is [50:44] so ingrained that I think it, you know, [50:47] I think if the next government um was, [50:51] you know, moderate, just to use a very [50:53] generic term, I still think that the [50:55] coverage would roughly the same when it [50:57] come because I don't think any future [50:59] Israeli government is going to uh behave [51:04] militarily against Hamas in a way that's [51:06] dramatically different from the way this [51:08] government is. If that answers your [51:09] question. [51:12] >> Okay. Thank you. Um Frank, before I come [51:16] to you, we've had another question [51:19] through the chat um uh from Caroline [51:22] who's with us this evening. Um, and she [51:25] asks uh quite a pointed question. How [51:27] influential is Harare, the the um [51:30] left-winged Israeli uh media outlet? How [51:33] how influential is it on English media? [51:38] And how did Harets get that way? [51:42] >> So the the second part was how does how [51:44] did it get that way? [51:45] >> Yes. Yeah. In terms of its you know its [51:48] its politics, it's [51:51] >> it's first of all we do have we do have [51:52] a Hebrew department. So for those those [51:54] who are fluent in Hebrew they um we do [51:56] at a you know we do write posts about [51:59] harat in Hebrew and in English. Um [52:02] answer your question this way their [52:03] Hebrew Israeli edition is read by maybe [52:07] 3 to 5% of the Israeli population there. [52:09] It's meaningless in its influence. Um [52:11] their English edition is probably the [52:14] most read um Israeli newspaper amongst [52:17] the foreign journalists that we [52:18] criticize. So you know kind of serves to [52:22] cacher right views that would normally [52:25] be considered beyond the pale. I mean, [52:27] Gideon Levy, for instance, you know, has [52:29] engaged in uh rhetoric that is [52:32] indistinguishable from um the most [52:35] anti-semitic um people you can imagine. [52:38] And you know, foreign journalists, they [52:41] go to Harris, they say, "Oh, look, so if [52:43] Harris can can write can say this about [52:46] Jews, then so can we." that you know I [52:48] think um it so distorts the lens of [52:51] Israel um in the minds of the media that [52:55] the harm that Harets does in English [52:57] can't be overstated um despite the fact [53:00] that in they're relatively irrelevant [53:02] when it comes to the Israeli political [53:04] and media discourse [53:06] >> I guess on one hand you know it stands [53:09] as testament to Israel's um free press [53:12] in society [53:14] >> absolutely [53:16] >> okay Frank, over to you if you could [53:18] unmute yourself, please. Frank, [53:24] >> can you hear me? [53:25] >> Yes, we can. Okay. [53:26] >> Um, is not our long-term optimism to be [53:31] in the fact that the petroleum age is [53:33] fading? Um, coal and dock labor were [53:37] dying slowly for 20 years, if not 30 [53:40] years before Margaret Thatcher killed [53:42] them off. And uh now with alternative [53:45] energies and the fact that Florida will [53:46] flood before anybody else does um when [53:50] we're independent of the Arab fuel [53:53] source uh we'll be able to forget them [53:55] and so will the west and therefore [53:57] shouldn't we be campaigning in terms of [53:59] western independence from the [54:01] pro-shakes. [54:04] >> All right that's that's interesting. You [54:06] know that's a little as I like to joke [54:08] beyond my pay grade. will say this [54:09] though I think the fact that um even [54:11] Saudi Arabia is looking to a future [54:13] which is you know free of dependence on [54:16] petrol is telling right that there are [54:18] that even within the authoritarian state [54:21] of Saudi Arabia they realize that [54:23] eventually they're going to run out of [54:24] petrol and they need to diversify their [54:26] economy and that's why kind of they're [54:28] flirting with the idea of normalization [54:30] with Israel um but I think there is [54:34] while there is a um how can I put this a [54:37] finite supply of oil in the world [54:40] >> there there is an in infinite supply of [54:43] um bad ideas about Israel and about [54:46] Jews. [54:47] >> Um so u you know like it's inexhaustible [54:50] and I'm being somewhat cheek cheeky but [54:52] also kind of realistic that you know I [54:55] think it's more I I think ideas um you [54:58] know are shaped more by um uh ideas that [55:03] are um that begin in academia and that [55:05] become popular. I I think it's true [55:08] about the Arab states and their [55:09] dependent upon oil and the degree to [55:11] which they might become less important [55:14] in the western democratic um uh [55:17] diplomatic world. But I I think that um [55:20] you know what we're fighting really is [55:22] ideas. And I think what's happened since [55:25] October 7th has shown that it's not just [55:28] about what happens in the hearts and [55:29] minds of people in the Middle East, but [55:32] it's about what happens in the hearts [55:33] and minds of young people um in cities [55:37] like New York and London and Paris, [55:40] right? And I think these are the people [55:42] who um who are really fueling like kind [55:46] of like the next generation of [55:48] anti-ionism, right? So, um I agree that [55:51] you know um definitely petrol plays a [55:54] part in uh the you know long-term [55:56] relationship um of of the UK and the US [55:59] with Arab states. But I I think we have [56:01] to be more concerned actually with [56:03] what's happening in the hearts and minds [56:05] of those in the west, the pro [56:07] Palestinian activists that have somehow, [56:09] you know, used the worst attack on Jews [56:11] since the Holocaust and has been [56:13] energized by that and have has [56:16] rediscovered anti-semitic tropes that [56:18] they thought were extinct. So I think [56:20] that's the bigger problem. [56:23] >> Okay. Thank you, Adam. Um, we've got a a [56:26] question here in the chat and Judith, [56:28] I'll come to you afterwards. Um, we've [56:31] got Robert Weissberg, um, who says that [56:34] camera excels at holding the media [56:36] responsible, but this is reactive. How [56:39] do we change the narrative by being more [56:41] proactive? For example, might a broader [56:44] reaching conference with media editors [56:47] forcing them to justify themselves among [56:49] their peers lead to a more objective [56:52] reporting. [56:55] >> Okay. Can you read the last part of that [56:57] that kind of broke up? [56:58] >> Yeah, sure. So um the last part is for [57:01] example might a broader reaching [57:04] conference with media editors [57:08] one which forces them to justify [57:09] themselves among their peers lead to a [57:12] more objective reporting. [57:16] >> Yeah look I mean we fight on a lot of [57:18] different battlefronts right we're [57:19] extremely active on social media. Uh we [57:22] try to change the discord the discourse [57:24] as best we can. um we do when there's [57:29] been a handful of times when I've met [57:30] with uh journalists from problematic [57:33] media outlets, but it's not often. Some [57:35] of my colleagues at camera have had the [57:37] opportunity to meet with uh journalists [57:40] that you may have heard of that you know [57:41] I won't mention it because they were [57:42] behind the scenes and off the record. So [57:45] when given an opportunity, we are happy [57:48] to engage with journalists that are [57:50] open-minded. Um, I just find that for [57:52] the most part, you know, they um feel [57:56] that um, you know, truth is on their [57:58] side and that, you know, we're um, a [58:00] hindrance, that we're we're pests and [58:03] we're making their their life harder. [58:05] Um, so I, you know, I am very careful to [58:10] steer clear of generalizing the entire [58:13] Western media, um, you know, crew that [58:16] reports on the Middle East. Um, they're [58:17] different people. They have different [58:18] motivations, but I think the one thing [58:21] that we can do to push back is by [58:23] exposing the bad ideas that fuels their [58:27] bad reporting. um we can continue to [58:30] make inroads where we can, but um you [58:32] know, I still think that if you're [58:35] within the circle of Western journalists [58:37] that are covering the Middle East and [58:38] you're assigned to Jerusalem, um if it [58:40] comes out that you met with camera, you [58:42] know, it's not going to make you [58:44] extremely popular within your, you know, [58:46] your clique, your click. Um um so um I [58:50] but I think we can do two things at one [58:51] time. we can continue continue to reach [58:53] out to reasonable journalists and [58:54] editors and maybe have behind the-scenes [58:56] conversations but you know with the [58:59] understanding that there's so much um [59:02] involved in this cognitive war against [59:03] it. There's so many ideas that are [59:05] percolating maybe unbeknownst to even [59:07] them that's motivating their um their [59:10] skewed coverage that um it's a much [59:12] bigger battle than simply you know [59:15] winning over um individual reporters or [59:17] editors. [59:19] Okay, thank you for that very um very [59:22] detailed response. Um I noticed that [59:24] Judith has put her her hand down. Um so [59:28] we have I'll put this as one final [59:31] question to you, Adam, if that's okay. [59:33] I'm just mindful that you're you're [59:35] getting well into the um of night part [59:38] of your evening in Israel. So um we've [59:41] got Martin has uh Judith has just raised [59:44] her hand again. Okay, let me let me put [59:47] Martin's question and then Judith and [59:49] then we'll call it a day if that's okay. [59:51] Um, so Martin has read an Israeli report [59:56] uh that London is the main base for BDS [59:59] and Corbyn is directing the effort [60:01] against Israel with China appearing to [60:03] be one of the main protagonists. What's [60:06] your view on this? [60:09] >> Uh, well, I guess I would want to know [60:11] which article the um is being referred [60:14] to. Uh I mean there has been some [60:18] reports that uh you know China does use [60:22] its state influence to um uh to affect [60:25] elections. Um certainly if you look at [60:28] Tik Tok right which I think is still [60:30] owned by China. I think it was supposed [60:32] to be sold to an American company but I [60:33] think it's owned by you know their [60:34] algorithm is very biased against Israel [60:38] uh against um Jews and people that are [60:40] pro-Israel. But I think it's much more [60:42] complicated than that. I mean, I think [60:43] the Western BDS um anti-Israel movement [60:46] is multifaceted. I mean, there's SJP, [60:49] Students for Justice in Palestine in the [60:51] US. There's, of course, the Palestine [60:53] Solidarity Campaign um in the UK and in [60:58] Ireland. Um I'm not aware of any [61:01] specific Chinese connection to these [61:03] groups, but you know, if if the if um [61:06] you want to send me that article, I can [61:08] certainly respond to it off the call. I [61:10] just didn't read what you're talking [61:11] about. Okay. All right. Fair enough. [61:13] Thank you, Adam. Um, so Judith, you've [61:16] got your hand up again. Um, can I please [61:18] ask you to unmute and put your question [61:21] to Adam? [61:24] Judith, [61:26] if you could unmute. [61:31] No. [61:35] Okay. No, Judith can't seem to unmute [61:38] her her mic at the moment. Um, so [61:42] >> can you hear me? [61:43] >> Yes, we can hear you. Just in time. [61:45] >> Okay. Um, it seems that the some of the [61:48] Arab nations have donated huge amounts [61:51] of money to our prestige universities [61:55] and [61:57] in effect because of that these schools [62:00] have hired a lot of Muslim [62:03] teachers who are poisoning our kids' [62:06] minds. [62:08] That's why in in all the universities [62:10] there was so much upset with Israel. And [62:16] >> as far as I'm concerned, [62:18] >> Judith, do you have a question that you [62:20] can put to Adam? [62:24] >> Judith, [62:26] >> what [62:27] >> can you put your question to Adam, [62:28] please? Thank you. [62:30] >> How how can we counter this? [62:34] Yeah, I I think that there's uh there [62:36] are organizations that do a job do a [62:38] good job of tracking to the degree to [62:41] which say countries like Qatar are [62:44] responsible for funding Middle East [62:46] studies programs in the US and I think [62:47] maybe even the UK. Um that's not [62:50] something that we necessarily specialize [62:52] in. Um but there is no question that [62:56] particularly Qatari funding of Middle [62:58] East studies programs is is a big [63:00] problem. it's been it's been exposed by [63:03] um Middle East forum and by um other [63:05] organizations um so well it's so but the [63:09] kind of broad answer is it's a big [63:11] problem um but I think it's more than [63:14] just that right I think there's a lot of [63:15] western academics um who aren't even [63:18] influenced by Qatari money who've [63:20] accepted ideas um that result in this [63:24] moral binary that I said so you know [63:27] call it postcolonialism call it [63:29] neoarxism um you know there are a lot of [63:31] um western academics that are free of [63:34] the influence of Qatari or Arab money [63:36] that have nonetheless accepted these [63:38] ideas that used to be on the fringes and [63:40] are now kind of you know seeped into uh [63:43] western society. So, you know, I I [63:45] forget who it was who said that, you [63:46] know, if you want to know what the uh [63:49] average uh you know, western commentator [63:52] is going to believe the next generation, [63:54] see what's percolating at the [63:55] universities. And I think that's um how [63:58] to fight that. I think that's again [63:59] that's a very specific area that I [64:02] personally um haven't researched or [64:04] examined. Um but I think you know what [64:06] we need to do is expose for instance [64:08] like when I said earlier um the absurd [64:11] liel of Israel as a settler colonial [64:14] state. um you know that alone is [64:16] probably I I think there was a um [64:18] there's a guy by the name of Adam Lewis [64:20] Klene um who started a movement called [64:23] uh I guess movement against anti-Zionism [64:26] and he did a he did a review of I don't [64:30] know hundreds of academic articles and [64:33] he found that like one of the common [64:35] denominators of these anti-ionist [64:36] academic articles that was this belief [64:38] in settler colonial theory right that [64:41] Israel has no connection to the land [64:42] that it's you know it was that you So, [64:45] so I think there's ideas like that that [64:48] are more than just the sum of Arab [64:49] money, they, you know, they like any bad [64:52] ideas that have occurred before it, they [64:54] kind of um become accepted for reasons [64:57] that are hard to understand. But I think [64:59] we need to know what's being said at the [65:01] universities because, you know, those [65:03] ideas I think are impacting what people [65:06] uh like Jeremy Bowen, if I can pick on [65:08] him again, are reporting in their [65:10] reports. [65:12] >> Okay. Well, Adam, um, thank you very [65:15] much. You've certainly answered a lot of [65:17] questions this evening and, um, given us [65:20] a lot of of information, a lot of food [65:23] for thought, um, on on a subject that's, [65:26] you know, constantly is on all of our [65:28] minds. Um, especially here in the UK [65:31] where our media just seems to remove any [65:35] and all agency from from the Palestinian [65:38] leadership and from Palestinian people, [65:40] etc. Um, so thank you very much. But [65:43] before we um end off this evening, I'm [65:45] going to call on our vice chair, Keith [65:49] Row, to offer up a vote of thanks. Um so [65:52] Keith, if I could call on you, please. [65:56] Keith, are you there? [66:00] Uh Keith, can you unmute yourself? [66:07] Uh let me just see if I can ask him to [66:10] unmute. Keith, are you there? [66:16] No. Keith, [66:18] maybe if I ask louder, [66:21] >> are you there, Keith? [66:25] >> Yeah, I'm here. Can you hear me? [66:27] >> Yes, we can. [66:28] >> Right. Uh, it wouldn't let me unmute. [66:31] Um, [66:33] >> Adam, uh, uh, I'd like to thank you [66:37] really for a really interesting, uh, [66:39] presentation this evening. Uh it's [66:42] always good to hear from and work [66:43] alongside camera uh which the NJA has [66:47] had uh quite a lot of involvement with [66:49] and collaboration with uh over the years [66:51] that we've been going. For those that [66:54] don't know anything about camera, every [66:57] time you read a newspaper article or [66:59] watch a television broadcast and you're [67:02] shouting at the screen or throwing the [67:04] newspaper in the bin because of the [67:06] bias, uh it's camera that are jumping on [67:08] it and writing to the editors and [67:11] disproving what they've said and they do [67:13] uh absolutely fantastic work. So uh [67:16] Adam, it's really good to hear your uh [67:19] presentation this evening. You've given [67:21] us an excellent summary of how the media [67:24] worldwide behaves. You've given us [67:27] examples from the Guardian, Private Eye, [67:30] Channel 4. The only people you didn't [67:32] mention uh until briefly in one of your [67:37] uh answers just then was the three [67:39] little letters of the BBC [67:42] uh which I guess really is uh a a whole [67:46] evening seminar and more uh in itself. [67:50] But I think everybody knows now how the [67:53] BBC behaves. Uh personally I don't [67:56] really watch them. Um and I think that [67:59] they're plummeting in viewer numbers. [68:00] Thank goodness as a result because there [68:02] are other media outlets. Um so you know [68:05] you've really summarized uh generally [68:08] how the media behaves. Um sadly what [68:12] you've actually illustrated to us even [68:15] more than I think we knew beforehand is [68:17] that while Israel may have won [68:19] militarily to a very large extent uh [68:22] it's lost the PR war. Um, and [68:27] that's something that that's very sad [68:29] for all of us. One of the things that [68:31] you said that you that I'll pick up on [68:33] is you said it was a war that they knew, [68:35] the Palestinians knew that they couldn't [68:38] win, but I think they had a belief that [68:41] they could and they're behaving like [68:43] they have. Um, and that's really what [68:46] we're up against and and you've [68:48] illustrated it very well. Um, and you've [68:51] proven even more to us that we know that [68:54] it's the Palestinians who are the ones [68:56] that really don't want the two-state [68:57] solution. It's it's nonsense talked [68:59] about by Western governments, [69:02] particularly the left-wing governments, [69:04] and the parties here don't really [69:06] understand. But you've summarized [69:08] everything uh really well, given us some [69:11] food for thought. So on behalf of [69:13] everybody at the NJA, I would like to [69:16] thank you for taking the time this [69:18] evening and uh explaining everything to [69:20] us. So well [69:22] before we go, um I've been asked to give [69:26] uh a little bit of a commercial break [69:29] because uh as members of the NJA and [69:32] there's been quite a good crowd on. Hope [69:33] they're still on this evening. As [69:35] everybody knows, we don't really charge [69:37] for what we do. Uh there's a very small [69:40] one-off fee for joining the NJA. If you [69:43] haven't already done so, please do join [69:45] the NJA. Uh but we will send out a [69:50] follow-up email with a recording of this [69:52] evening's uh discussion and and uh [69:55] presentation. [69:56] uh and along with that will be a link [69:59] and if anybody would like to contribute [70:01] towards the work of the NJA either a [70:04] small one-off contribution a larger [70:06] contribution regular contributions uh [70:08] that would all be very much appreciated [70:10] and will help us uh carry on with our [70:13] work which we hope that you like but [70:16] Adam uh it's been really lovely uh [70:20] hearing you talk this evening and thank [70:21] you so much for being with us [70:23] >> thank you very much Keith I appreciate [70:24] those kind words [70:26] >> my pleasure Thank you. Thank you [70:27] everyone. Thank you for joining this [70:29] evening. Take care. [70:32] Bye-bye.
