Transcript [00:00] We're starting with the story, the [00:01] biblical story, how to bring your kids [00:03] into the story of scripture. [00:05] >> Mhm. It really is the best place to [00:06] start cuz [music] it is a story. Right. [00:08] >> And getting them into that because [00:10] there's mystery in story, there's drama [00:12] in stories. [00:13] >> Oh, yeah. [00:13] >> There's gray, not black and white in [00:15] stories, right? There's people that fail [00:17] in stories, people that are redeemed in [00:19] stories, people that God uses and then [00:21] they fail and then they get redeemed and [00:23] and then there's people that are enemies [00:25] in stories and good guys in stories, [00:27] right? [00:27] >> Well, in in story identity is formed [00:30] [music] in the story. So, you really [00:32] can't skip over the story and really [00:35] know who you are even or or what's going [00:38] on or why the victory at the end is so [00:41] sweet. [00:42] >> Yeah. [00:42] >> And [00:43] >> [music] [00:43] >> and that's why I do think, you know, [00:44] Christians, this is essentially a reason [00:46] why we struggle with Israel, we do have [00:48] a bit of a blind spot [music] and we [00:49] struggle with that sort of maybe [00:51] avoidance of [00:53] knowing how to relate to them and then [00:55] therefore avoidance of them. You know, [00:57] it's just because when we've glossed [00:59] over those those key events, we've lost [01:02] a lot of the story [music] and therefore [01:03] we have lost in some ways the anchor of [01:07] their identity and ours in relation to [01:10] them. [01:18] >> Well, hey everybody, welcome back to [01:20] another episode of the Covenant in [01:22] Conflict Podcast. I am Nick, your host [01:24] today. [01:26] If we haven't had the chance to meet [01:27] through a recent episode, um I am the [01:31] founder of the Center for Israel, helped [01:33] found this with a team of people and [01:35] it's a joy that you're with us today to [01:37] watch. The heart of this podcast is to [01:39] look at ancient truths and modern issues [01:42] and to see how they connect with one [01:44] another even though at times they can [01:46] sit in conflict with one another. So, [01:48] the point of the Covenant in Conflict [01:49] Podcast is to look at covenantal truths [01:51] of scripture and then examine how they [01:54] sit in conflict with modern issues that [01:56] you're facing as a follower of Jesus. [01:58] So, today is very special for me because [02:00] I am going to invite I'm having on to [02:03] the podcast my wife, Tabitha, who has [02:06] been along for the ride since we founded [02:08] the Center for Israel in 2019 and even [02:10] dating further back to that. Obviously, [02:12] everything that God has called me to do, [02:15] he has called her to do because as a [02:17] family, we've received a focus in [02:20] ministry from him with Israel and the [02:22] Jewish people at the center of that. So, [02:24] we're excited to talk together with you [02:26] today about an a really important topic [02:29] and that's how do you talk with your [02:30] kids about Israel? So, I want to welcome [02:33] Tabitha on to the podcast. [02:34] >> Thank you. [02:35] >> How are you? [02:35] >> I'm very glad to be here with you. [02:37] >> Yeah. [02:38] >> I hope we have fun. [02:39] >> You feeling good? [02:39] >> Yeah. [02:40] >> Think we're going to have any arguments [02:41] on the air in front of everybody? [02:43] >> [laughter] [02:44] >> We have a very passionate relationship. [02:46] >> That's a good way to put it. [02:47] >> Yeah, that's how I'm framing it. [02:48] >> Exactly. Well, I'm excited for you to [02:50] hear from Tabitha not just because she's [02:52] my wife, but I I legitimately mean this. [02:55] I think she is an expert. She is [02:57] probably cringing at me saying this, but [02:58] she's an expert on some of the things [03:00] that we're going to be talking about and [03:02] she has the academic backing to back [03:04] that up because you have a master's in [03:06] practical theology [03:07] and with a concentration in the land of [03:09] the Bible. [03:10] >> Yeah. Yeah, shout out to the King's [03:12] University. [03:13] Wonderful. Check it out. Um and yes, we [03:16] have that wonderful specialization in [03:20] the land of the Bible, which is super [03:21] fun. It's essentially like Bible [03:23] geography, but even more, you know? [03:26] >> So, we're going to talk about how to [03:27] talk with your kids about Israel. [03:29] >> Mhm. [03:30] >> And we were talking earlier this [03:31] morning, not how to talk to your kids [03:32] about Israel, but how to talk with them. [03:35] Uh actually, one of the more important [03:36] things about this topic in wanting to [03:38] share what uh the Bible says about [03:41] Israel is to talk with them and not talk [03:43] at them. [03:43] >> Mhm. [03:44] >> And um some of the reason why we feel [03:47] the younger generation is having a hard [03:48] time with this topic, it's very [03:50] complicated, is because they've been [03:51] talked to and not with. So, how to talk [03:54] with your kids about Israel and talk [03:57] like why don't you tell everybody a [03:58] little bit about um some of the things [04:01] on our family setting the context for [04:03] why are we talking about this [04:04] conversation. [04:05] >> I know I would I would definitely not [04:06] say we have an expertise, but we sure do [04:08] have a lot of experience that I'm really [04:10] happy to share. Um so, we when we were [04:13] dating, we went to our first event where [04:17] we started to learn about God's heart [04:19] for the Jewish people, um his ongoing [04:22] commitment to Israel. We were literally [04:24] just dating. And um if you remember that [04:26] in 2007, so it's really been a 20-year [04:29] journey for us. And we have just I can't [04:33] even express how much we've gained from [04:35] connecting to the Jewish community and [04:38] all our friends and just over the years [04:40] it's it's just been [04:42] unexpected in many ways. Obviously, we [04:44] lived in Israel for a year in 2014 to [04:47] 2015 for you to get your your master's [04:49] degree at the Hebrew University. [04:51] >> Yeah. Not in theology. [04:54] >> Yeah. No, but um you know, Albert [04:57] Einstein, I always throw this out there, [04:58] helped found that university, so cool. [05:01] Um but yeah, that was a learning [05:03] experience and then we've just been in [05:05] Christian-Jewish relations [05:07] a lot of that time, so Yeah, we're we're [05:09] just happy to be here. And for us, [05:11] talking with our kids about Israel and [05:14] the Jewish people is something, you [05:16] know, as Christians we have a Bible, so [05:18] we kind of have to we have to pick this [05:21] topic up if we value the Bible um and if [05:24] we read scripture, cuz it's all about [05:26] them. And so, even for us it's [05:28] challenging. So, we've just we're we're [05:31] I you know, again, I don't feel like an [05:33] expert, I just feel like we're trying to [05:34] grow, and so anything that we have to [05:36] offer, we want to share today, you know. [05:38] >> That's right. I'm glad you made that [05:40] point earlier, cuz I was about to say, [05:42] and we also have kids, so we have some [05:45] experience. [05:46] >> Yes. Yes, 8 [05:46] >> Talking [05:47] >> kids about Israel. [05:48] >> Right. Eight through 14, three kids. And [05:51] an 11-year-old in the middle. [05:52] >> Yeah. And so, we some of what we're [05:55] going to talk through, obviously, is is [05:57] like real time that we've been learning [05:58] with our 14-year-old who is a passionate [06:00] lover of Israel and the Jewish people, [06:01] actually. Uh and she's a great advocate [06:04] for what the Bible says about Israel and [06:06] the Jewish people. [06:07] >> Yeah, I was about to say, maybe she's a [06:08] crusader, but maybe I shouldn't use that [06:10] language. But yeah, she's [06:12] >> I think that Right, the description [06:13] would fit with her, right? You know, [06:15] she's very passionate, and uh and she [06:17] talks a lot about and and her kids in [06:20] her class, she goes to a Christian [06:21] school, but kids in her class are [06:24] struggling with some things that we [06:26] would say are not founded in the Bible. [06:29] And so, she's helping us even think [06:30] about um how our kids her age thinking [06:34] about this topic. [06:35] >> Yeah, it's uh it's all over for them. [06:38] They're just receiving a lot of [06:41] um people, voices with a lot of [06:43] different ideas, and they're asking good [06:45] questions, but um some of the questions [06:48] that are coming up for them are because [06:50] they're listening to sources that have [06:52] essentially a bias or a present [06:54] prejudice against Israel. So, yeah, so [06:57] it's actually really challenging for all [06:59] of us because they're asking questions [07:00] that we've never asked. Our generations [07:02] haven't. And um but I think it's kind of [07:05] bring the rubber to the road. Like, we [07:07] really do have to deepen. We need to [07:09] deepen. We need to go to deeper places [07:11] Christians and how we relate to Israel, [07:12] you know? [07:13] >> Yeah. So, the heart of us doing this [07:16] particular topic is because one, the [07:20] kind of the operational mission of the [07:21] Center for Israel is to help you [07:22] understand Israel. And one of the quotes [07:25] we said many times on this podcast, if [07:27] you haven't heard it before, it's a [07:28] Derek Prince quote, which is that if you [07:30] don't understand Israel, then you don't [07:32] understand the Bible. So, everything [07:35] that we really try to collapse into what [07:37] we do at the Center for Israel is to [07:38] actually not just help you understand a [07:40] niche topic, but it's actually to help [07:42] you see the whole of the biblical story, [07:45] which Israel and the Jewish people are [07:47] at the center of. [07:48] >> Mhm. [07:48] >> So, as we go through the podcast today, [07:51] this is a question that we've gotten a [07:52] lot from parents, [07:54] um and sometimes older parents than us [07:56] even, who just grew up in a biblical [07:58] worldview. They just grew up saying, [08:00] "Hey, Genesis 12:3 says, 'I will bless [08:02] those who bless you.'" And Romans 11 [08:05] says, "God has not rejected Israel." So, [08:07] they just take it as just normalized [08:09] truth. [08:09] >> Mhm. [08:10] >> And then their kids are going to college [08:12] and they're being challenged with people [08:13] who did not grow up in a biblical [08:15] worldview. [08:16] And we want to help you have answers to [08:19] navigate through this conversation with [08:20] your kids. So, [08:22] because this topic is so wide and [08:24] extensive, we want to make sure that it [08:26] stays on target and is helpful for you, [08:28] which is why Tabitha has her laptop and [08:31] I, maybe for the first time on the [08:32] Covenant Conflict podcast, have show [08:34] notes. [08:35] I actually feel like we've just taken [08:37] this podcast up a level. [08:38] >> That's true. [08:38] >> Look, I have I have some show notes [08:40] here. [08:40] >> Yeah, look. [08:41] >> But, the heart of this is is obviously [08:42] to make sure that we we have done a lot [08:44] of work in thinking about this. Tabitha [08:46] has done a lot of work in thinking about [08:47] this, and I want to make sure that we [08:49] get you the right content. So, let's [08:51] start somewhere. We kind of backed into [08:53] this a little bit, and that is that [08:55] Israel is at is this is central to God's [08:57] plan in the biblical narrative. [08:59] >> Yeah. [08:59] >> So, why don't we start there and just [09:01] build a wide foundation for people who [09:03] are watching or listening and begin to [09:05] help frame this out as we get down. [09:07] We'll go from the wider to the [09:09] particular [09:10] >> Mhm. [09:10] >> in the conversation. [09:11] >> Right. I think we we felt like the very [09:13] first tip, if you will, that comes to [09:15] mind in conversations with your kids, [09:18] and I feel like we're really we're not [09:20] just talking about teenagers. That [09:23] this is for any child. Because when you [09:25] read God's word together, you're [09:26] learning about Abraham, you know, from [09:28] age three, four, five. So, this can be a [09:31] topic that we approach from the earliest [09:33] ages, but [09:35] you really just don't have to start with [09:37] theology, even though theology is [09:40] important here and we'll talk about [09:42] that, but really you just start with the [09:44] story. [09:45] Um, you know, you don't have to have it [09:47] all figured out, but you look at your [09:49] Bible and you know what God has done in [09:51] history and you start there going Oh, [09:55] okay, for example, when my kids and I [09:57] are talking about it, they've heard this [09:59] once, they've probably heard it a [10:00] hundred times, but I always tell them, [10:02] you know, first of all, we believe that [10:04] the Bible is God's word and as you can [10:06] see, Israel and the Jewish people are [10:09] people are the central figures in the [10:11] Bible along with God. [10:12] >> Mhm. [10:13] >> And um, it's all their interactions with [10:15] him, all their experiences with him and [10:19] some have called it actually the Jewish [10:21] family diary. Now, Jewish people use [10:23] that about the Hebrew scriptures with [10:26] the Tanakh or the Old Testament as [10:27] Christians call it, but I've also heard [10:29] it referred to by um, [10:32] Jewish believers in Jesus, you know, [10:34] looking at the New Testament, it's very [10:36] Jewish text, very Jewish authors. [10:39] Every author of every Bible of the book [10:41] is Jewish and has a Jewish worldview [10:44] with possibly the exclusion of Luke. [10:46] >> Yeah. [10:46] >> Right? And he still had was very [10:48] influenced by a Jewish worldview and [10:50] most of the time their audience, I don't [10:53] know, I don't have the stats, but maybe [10:54] 75% their audience was Jewish people. [10:58] >> Yeah. [10:58] >> And so this goes throughout the [11:01] Christian Bible, through the New [11:02] Testament, all the way to Revelation, [11:04] very Jewish, right? And so we can we [11:08] don't have to avoid that with our kids. [11:10] We can tell them how thankful we are [11:12] that this family, the descendants of [11:15] Abraham whom God made a covenant with, [11:16] which is a very key point in world [11:18] history that Christians don't always [11:20] emphasize as much as we could in the [11:24] in the gospel story. [11:25] Um, we can tell them [11:28] that we're so thankful they wrote [11:31] everything down and it was also which we [11:33] of course have a very high view of God's [11:35] word. It's the inspired word of God, you [11:37] know, by the power of the Holy Spirit, [11:39] but it's also like a diary. They [11:41] experienced him and everything we know [11:43] about God's character is through these [11:46] experiences they had and then they were [11:47] shown to us that he's a father. We [11:49] wouldn't even know that and so I think [11:51] we forget, we take some things for [11:52] granted that's been handed to us by [11:54] them. So I like to start there and then [11:57] I also usually go on to say not only um [12:00] Jesus was Jewish, but he is Jewish. We [12:03] do believe he's still human. He was The [12:06] mystery of who Jesus is is something [12:08] Christians [12:09] you know, we learn about, but we have to [12:11] still believe that he's still fully [12:13] divine and fully human. So if he is, [12:15] then he's still male and we believe he's [12:17] still Jewish. And then talking about how [12:21] the good news came out from Israel to [12:23] all the nations. And this is a framework [12:26] I do think you have to get used to [12:27] thinking about when you're studying the [12:28] Bible. Israel and the nations. But [12:32] that is the [12:34] the the biblical characters in a sense, [12:36] the the big story characters are Israel [12:39] and the nations and we're not Israel. We [12:42] are the nations. So I tell my kids that. [12:44] >> You mean Americans are the nations, too? [12:46] >> Right. Yeah. [12:47] >> We talk about this sometimes, right? [12:48] Like at the church at church sometimes, [12:50] not just at Gateway, but churches will [12:52] sing like [12:54] >> and I'll give you the nations. [12:55] >> Uh-huh. [12:56] >> And we're like, yeah, we are the [12:57] nations. [12:58] >> Or the gospel will go out to all the [12:59] ends of the earth from Judea and [13:01] Samaria, you know, Jerusalem and to the [13:04] ends of the earth. [13:05] And I'm always like, yes, that's we're [13:08] at the ends of the earth. You but we [13:10] usually put ourself in the center and [13:11] it's going out from us, you know, as [13:13] Western Christians often and that, you [13:15] know, it's it's natural, but um there's [13:18] something to celebrate there that we are [13:19] kind of at the ends of the earth. [13:21] >> Right. [13:21] >> You know, and and so I I just like to to [13:24] go back and even look the New Testament, [13:26] look at Acts and just say, "Look, when [13:28] Jesus commissioned all of those Jewish [13:31] believers in him who were very faithful [13:33] to their to their Jewish identity, which [13:35] Christians don't always understand, just [13:37] because we've studied the scriptures [13:39] from a outside perspective and we always [13:40] haven't we haven't always engaged with [13:42] the help of um Jewish people for a [13:45] Jewish text, you know? So, we have [13:46] interpreted some things like that they [13:48] converted, which we don't believe here [13:50] at the center at all. And so, when he [13:52] commissioned them, it was really he was [13:55] thinking of Abraham here, the promises [13:57] that your family's going to be a light [13:58] to all the nations. And so, they went [14:00] they went out from that place into the [14:02] Roman Empire. And all those Jewish [14:04] people went out. And yes, they were they [14:06] were telling their fellow Jews, but they [14:07] were also telling non-Jews. [14:09] >> Right. [14:09] >> They were reaching the nations with the [14:11] good news. And here we are today, 2,000 [14:14] years later, because it has spread from [14:16] generation to generation. And so, I tell [14:19] my kids, their people told us the good [14:22] news of Jesus. [14:24] >> Yeah. [14:24] >> Their people brought the gospel to us. [14:26] So, we have so much to be thankful for. [14:29] And so, that's what I mean whenever I [14:30] say you can start with the story. [14:32] >> Mhm. Yeah, and also I think in that it's [14:34] helping our kids understand that [14:38] most of the time they're going to grow [14:40] up in an environment where they go to a [14:42] physical location. We obviously attend a [14:45] mega church that actually makes this [14:46] even more challenging because you're [14:49] going to naturally develop a pattern of [14:51] thinking [14:52] as a young person that Christianity is a [14:55] few things. One, it's a spiritual [14:56] reality that [14:59] we don't see or touch or feel Jesus. I [15:01] mean, we can feel Jesus, obviously, but [15:03] not in a physical sense. So, everything [15:06] becomes spiritualized. And then church [15:09] to us [15:10] is a place that we go to as a kid. [15:12] >> Yeah. [15:12] >> Right? We're like, "I don't want to go [15:13] to church." And we're like, "Well, the [15:14] church is more than a building." And [15:16] they're like, "Yeah, but we're going to [15:17] a building every Sunday. You're dragging [15:18] me there, right?" [15:20] And so, I think that's something that we [15:22] just have to acknowledge that there's a [15:24] development [15:26] process that has to take place and [15:27] almost an unwinding because the Bible [15:30] really is I remember a Jewish believer [15:33] told us this one time that the gospel is [15:35] an individual invitation to join the [15:37] corporate family of God. [15:39] And what we don't realize is that we [15:42] don't use family language typically when [15:44] we talk about the church or [15:46] Christianity. We actually use more [15:48] institutional language, organizational [15:50] language, right? Like we became a [15:52] Christian and we go to church. So, we're [15:54] reinforcing the idea of an [15:56] organizational reality, not a family [15:58] reality when you read the Bible, God [16:00] deals with families. And the big [16:02] distinction in the Bible is the family [16:04] of Israel and then the nations, the [16:06] family of nations that have multiple [16:08] different ethnic backgrounds. So, [16:11] that's a key thing to just remember as [16:12] you're starting to lay a foundation for [16:14] your kids is that there's a Jewish [16:16] family and the Bible is really about [16:18] God's dealings with them. And then he [16:21] invites us to join that corporate family [16:23] through faith in Jesus by not becoming [16:26] Jewish, but it is a family reality. So, [16:28] it's understanding God as a father like [16:30] you said and then it's understanding [16:31] that hey, we've inherited things that [16:33] have come through people. Like God [16:36] worked through people just like he works [16:37] through us and then we share the kingdom [16:39] of God with others. So, there's this [16:42] family reality that helps ground us in [16:44] the biblical world. So, you talked about [16:46] this but [16:48] and I think we're kind of getting at it [16:49] now. It's this It's this thing that [16:51] lives over here that most Christians [16:52] can't see [16:54] because [16:55] like a blind spot where we don't [16:57] understand the Jewishness of scripture. [17:00] We read it out of scripture because we [17:02] just grew up in a in a in a system that [17:06] is that we don't know any Jewish people [17:08] first of all, right? So, it's old in our [17:09] heads. We're like that's the old thing. [17:12] >> Especially those of us who live like [17:13] here where we live. Maybe if you live on [17:15] the East and West Coast, that's a little [17:17] different, but there aren't as many [17:20] There's not as high a percentage of [17:21] believers in Jesus and Christians on the [17:23] East and West Coast, too. So, where you [17:25] have a lot of [17:26] Christians in, for example, the United [17:28] States, you don't have as big of Jewish [17:29] populations. [17:31] Yeah. [17:31] >> Right. Yeah, and we don't and we don't [17:33] call God the God of Israel, right? [17:35] >> Yeah. [17:36] >> And we don't we call it Old Testament [17:38] and New Testament. And that's the kind [17:41] of a funny thing to say because you're [17:43] like, it's old. Well, what are you What [17:45] are you going What you're kind of like [17:46] implying to to our kids even like, [17:48] "Yeah, that's old." So, we we're like [17:50] upset that young people don't read the [17:52] Old Testament. [17:53] >> Right. [17:53] >> But then I feel sometimes I'm like, [17:55] "Well, why would they?" [17:56] >> Yeah. [17:57] The Old Testament, you mean? Yeah, yeah. [17:58] >> You know, like we grew up teaching them [18:00] that's Old Testament. In the New [18:02] Testament, [18:03] they're like, "Ooh, I want the new [18:04] thing." [18:04] >> Yeah. [18:05] >> Forget about the old stuff. I don't need [18:06] to learn about that. And it's like [18:08] slow-moving, historical, lots of you [18:10] know, confusing names. So, so let's [18:13] let's talk about this. Um just [18:16] the the unknown blind spot that we [18:18] sometimes have. And just to acknowledge [18:20] that it lives within us and it's going [18:22] to live within the next generation until [18:24] someone exposes it to them. [18:26] >> slow I feel I believe it's slowly [18:28] healing, but it takes generations. [18:31] >> Yeah. [18:31] >> And I think that it's been something [18:33] that has progressed, unfortunately, um [18:37] for the last 2,000 years. And I think [18:40] the Reformation was a turning point, but [18:42] we're still all on that journey. I think [18:44] the return to the high view of God's [18:47] word and the Hebrew scriptures, the Old [18:49] Testament, has been a big [18:52] you know, that's been a big healing part [18:54] because if you have a high view of the [18:56] Old Testament as God's word just on the [18:59] same um it's you know, the same [19:02] importance as the New Testament, then [19:04] you cannot look away. And you can't be [19:07] as passive as Christians have always [19:09] been. Well, passive or worse as [19:12] Christians have related to to Israel and [19:14] the Jewish people. So, we do have um a [19:16] bit of an uphill battle, I think, as [19:18] Christians, just simply because of [19:19] either what we've been taught or a lot [19:22] of what we just caught, you know? Just [19:24] just things like the mindsets toward [19:26] them that were fairly avoidant, [19:29] um [19:30] you know, at best, um like we said, or [19:33] you know, or worse. Maybe we had you [19:35] know, who knows? Maybe we've had [19:36] experiences with people who weren't [19:38] friendly toward them. So, all that has [19:40] been kind of passed down to us, but [19:41] essentially also what's been passed down [19:43] to us is just a tradition that puts [19:47] So, we talked about this with with the [19:49] gospel. Um it's it's a lot like if you [19:52] look at history as like on a stage [19:55] almost, like a timeline, and you put all [19:57] different important historical events of [20:00] how God has interacted with us and shown [20:03] us what he's doing, his redemptive plan [20:05] is unfolding on the earth. [20:07] Christians in the early first few [20:10] centuries decided to pull forward a few [20:15] of those events that they felt like were [20:18] the main pillars of the gospel story [20:22] that we would need, and they were all [20:25] very true and very important. However, [20:28] it was our perspective, and it we [20:31] believe it had some limitations because [20:34] we weren't actually partnering with the [20:36] people, Abraham's family, of the [20:38] covenant to which we've been grafted in. [20:41] And if we had have been, there might [20:42] have been a few things that we that we [20:45] made sure not to leave out. And when I [20:47] say that, I'm talking about like [20:49] Christians say, and we we talk about [20:50] this all the time on this podcast, [20:52] creation, the fall, Jesus' redemption [20:55] and restoration at the end of the world. [20:57] Like that's the gospel. [20:58] Yes, and it just kind of puts in day [21:00] I've heard David Blaze say this so much, [21:02] puts the whole Old Testament just kind [21:05] of in like the sin part of the gospel, [21:07] he says, you know, just the bad part. [21:09] But there that that was kind of a a way [21:11] that we could universalize it and [21:13] understand it and we framed it. It [21:14] wasn't bad, in fact, it's obviously [21:17] the truth that we a foundation, it's [21:21] very solid. However, um there were some [21:24] things lost, you know, there were some [21:26] things lost there like the particularity [21:28] particularity [21:29] of God, his for example, um which God [21:32] we're talking about, not just the God [21:34] who has um sent his divine son Jesus, [21:37] but this is the same God who made his [21:39] covenant with Abraham. [21:40] >> So, God starts with the family [21:42] with Abraham, and families need a place. [21:44] >> Mhm. [21:45] >> Right? Like again, this is these are [21:46] basic things that sometimes unlock stuff [21:48] for our kids like, "Hey, God commits [21:50] himself to people. People need a place." [21:53] That's another reality of a modern 21st [21:55] century. It's like we just pick up and [21:57] move and like it doesn't place doesn't [22:00] matter as much to us, but it does matter [22:02] to God. Actually, I would say place [22:03] matters to every person. Like where [22:05] you're sitting today, if you're a [22:06] follower of Jesus, God put you there for [22:08] a reason. There's people in your life [22:10] that he wants you to influence. So, it [22:12] mattered then, it matters now. [22:13] >> Yeah. [22:14] >> So, let's talk about this cuz it weaves [22:15] into the land. [22:16] >> That's right. Well, I mean, if place [22:18] matters like I think also where [22:21] do bodies matter [22:23] for our spirit and our soul to be in? [22:26] And it's not just a discardable shell, [22:29] it's something God says he wants to [22:31] restore. And that so, as Christians, we [22:34] believe in the resurrection, which as [22:36] the older I get, the more controversial [22:38] I realize how that belief is, and I'm so [22:42] I'm so glad to to believe in it, you [22:44] know? But um if we believe in the [22:46] resurrection, then that's that's that we [22:47] will be restored to new bodies, but [22:50] these are actual skin and bone bodies, [22:52] you know? So, [22:53] >> Yeah. [22:53] >> um if if we need a home it a home is a [22:57] place to fulfill our destiny. [22:59] And a play in a way to so that we [23:01] connect with God who has who is a [23:04] spiritual being but who has made a [23:06] material world that um [23:09] he he did it because it's good. And so [23:12] if our bodies are made for us to inhabit [23:16] them our soul and to be [23:18] you know, they're not who we are but [23:20] they're a part of who we are, right? [23:22] Um [23:23] it's so that we can glorify him. [23:24] >> Mhm. [23:25] >> So it's the same with land. [23:28] That God gives us our portion. He gives [23:32] Israel their home in a land in order so [23:35] that they can fulfill their destiny to [23:38] be a blessing and to be at peace with [23:40] him as well. And so and he wants that [23:43] for all. It's not something that gets [23:44] canceled. It's something that actually [23:46] gets affirmed and then spreads outward [23:48] because he wants all people in all [23:51] nations to receive their portion and [23:53] their inheritance from him as [23:55] his adopted sons and daughters, you [23:58] know? [23:58] >> Yeah, exactly. [23:59] >> So. [23:59] >> And it and it matters. [24:01] >> Right. [24:01] >> And I know there's a lot of nuance in [24:02] that. We'll get to that later because [24:04] we're starting with the story. [24:06] The the biblical story. How to how to [24:07] bring your kids into the story of [24:09] scripture. It really is the best place [24:11] to start cuz it is a story. And getting [24:14] them into that because there's mystery [24:16] in story. There's drama in stories. [24:18] >> Oh yeah. [24:18] >> There's gray, not black and white in [24:20] stories, right? There's people that fail [24:22] in stories, people that are redeemed in [24:24] stories, people that God uses and then [24:26] they fail and then they get redeemed and [24:28] and then there's people that are enemies [24:30] in stories and good guys in stories, [24:32] right? [24:32] >> Well, and and story is um recently [24:35] learned this from Preston who's been on [24:36] who you know who contributes here but he [24:39] said it so well. He said identity is [24:42] formed in the story. So you really can't [24:44] skip over the story and really know who [24:48] you are even or what's going on or why [24:51] the victory at the end is so sweet. [24:54] >> Yep. [24:54] >> And and that's why I do think, you know, [24:56] Christians, we struggle with that. [24:59] This is how we should This is [25:00] essentially a reason why we struggle [25:02] with Israel and we do have a bit of a [25:03] blind spot and we struggle with that [25:06] sort of maybe avoidance of knowing how [25:09] to relate to them and then therefore [25:10] avoidance of them, um which isn't [25:13] helpful if we love the Bible, right? [25:15] But, um you know, it's just because when [25:18] we've glossed over those those key [25:20] events, we've lost a lot of the story [25:22] and therefore we have lost in some ways [25:24] the anchor of their identity and ours in [25:28] relation to them. [25:29] >> Right. So, that ties to what we just [25:31] said earlier, created, broken, redeemed, [25:33] restored. So, you basically get to [25:35] Genesis 3, then you fast forward to [25:37] Matthew 1, right? So, you're we're [25:39] missing this massive part of the story [25:42] >> Mhm. [25:42] >> that that tells us actually more about [25:44] who God is, how God works on the earth [25:47] with people. And so, the story's [25:49] important, so let's jump through that [25:50] then and go to scripture. [25:53] >> Mhm. [25:53] >> Like, what does scripture actually say? [25:54] And a lot of what scripture says, as we [25:57] try to help unders- our kids understand [26:00] what the Bible says about Israel and the [26:02] nations. [26:03] >> Mhm. [26:03] >> A lot of that scripture is in the in [26:06] between the broken and redeemed. [26:08] >> Right. And And where the Christian story [26:11] has sometimes the big Here's the thing. [26:13] We value scripture, [26:15] but there's always an interpretation. [26:17] And so, where Christians have [26:19] interpreted not only scripture, but also [26:21] after 70 AD, they looked at the Jewish [26:23] nation and all that happened to them and [26:25] they went, "Okay." And they interpreted [26:28] it a certain way. If God judged them [26:30] like this, then he And unfortunately, [26:32] they felt as though he must have [26:34] rejected them. And so, that began to [26:36] shape how they saw the story, but it [26:39] also then now leaves us here 2,000 years [26:41] later, when we read scriptures that do [26:43] affirm Israel's continued purpose and [26:47] their continued [26:49] role in God's unfolding plan of [26:51] redemption and even that we, the [26:54] nations, would be partnering with Israel [26:56] at the because we're meant to be one in [26:57] Messiah, they don't always know how to [27:01] understand that because we've told [27:03] ourselves that their purpose was not [27:04] ongoing. It's really unfortunate and [27:07] does not reflect well on God's [27:09] character, as we always talk about here, [27:10] you know. So, yeah, so I do think it's [27:12] just important to go to scripture and [27:14] just say, "Hey, sometimes we can't [27:15] always understand exactly how this works [27:18] in our day and age when we look at the [27:20] journey they're on, the journey we're [27:22] on, but let's read let's read this [27:24] together, you know? [27:26] >> Yeah. Let's read. What do you want to [27:27] read the scripture? Yeah, you've got [27:28] five scriptures. [27:29] >> Yeah. [27:30] >> Right? That kind of give an anchor to [27:32] what the Bible says about Israel. [27:33] >> Yeah. [27:34] >> And our scriptures that you can help [27:36] walk your kids through. I'm going to [27:37] move this again in my [27:38] >> y'all, it was so random. We picked these [27:40] so [27:42] quickly because there's just so many you [27:44] can go to. I think just going through [27:46] any book of the Bible, you'll find, if [27:48] you have a [27:49] um the mindset, you're going to find [27:51] help as you talk to your kids. But um [27:54] the first one that comes to mind is one [27:56] that I love, and you should read it. [27:59] It's Jeremiah 31:35-36. [28:01] >> What's neat about this is a lot of a lot [28:03] of believers understand Jeremiah 31 [28:06] because this is the scripture that [28:07] starts talking about the new covenant. [28:09] >> Mhm. [28:09] >> Uh the Brit Hadasha. Cuz God does, he [28:12] prophesies that there will there's [28:13] coming a day where I will make a new [28:15] covenant with the house of Judah. [28:17] >> Yes. [28:17] >> And he did through Jesus. And so, but [28:20] part of this scripture, so then we [28:21] that's where sometimes we we get into [28:23] this breaking in our thinking that like [28:25] the old is gone, the new is come. God's [28:28] done with Israel, the church is in. But [28:30] what's interesting is that's why you got [28:31] to read all of it. You got to read all [28:33] the scriptures. [28:34] >> can't dissect [28:34] >> Not just the ones that your pastor uses [28:37] for 2 seconds [28:39] on or that you heard on a podcast. [28:41] Because here's what it says, [28:43] um it says, "But this is the new [28:44] covenant I will make with the people of [28:46] Israel on that day. This is Jeremiah 30 [28:48] 31 verse 33. Okay, so he establishes the [28:51] language of the new covenant, but here's [28:53] what it says in verse 35 if you keep [28:55] reading. [28:57] It is the Lord who provides the sun to [28:58] light the day and the moon and stars to [29:01] light the night. It is he who stirs the [29:03] sea into roaring waves. His name is the [29:06] Lord Almighty and this is what he says. [29:09] This is what the Lord says. [29:11] I am as likely to reject my people [29:14] Israel [29:15] as I am to do away with the laws of [29:18] nature. [29:20] >> Mhm. [29:21] >> That's pretty powerful. I mean it's [29:22] pretty black and white, right? He's [29:23] basically like, I'm not going to do away [29:26] I mean I'm not going to reject Israel [29:28] unless literally the laws of nature are [29:30] rejected. [29:30] >> Right. [29:31] >> So, that alone is something you should [29:33] >> have meaning, you know, to Christians [29:35] we've Mine says, "If this fixed order [29:38] departs from before me," declares the [29:40] Lord, "then" So, basically saying when [29:42] all this gets canceled, then shall the [29:44] offspring of Israel cease from being a [29:46] nation [29:47] >> Mhm. [29:47] >> before me forever. If If words have [29:50] meaning, we have to look at what he's [29:52] saying there. There's words there that [29:54] Israel is not talking about the church [29:57] because he calls them a nation. [29:59] >> Yeah. [29:59] That's right. He's And he actually goes [30:01] on to talk about Jerusalem again the [30:03] particularity [30:04] >> you know, he's not tricking Jeremiah and [30:06] talking about the church. [30:07] >> Yeah, and this is what it says I think [30:09] you just read this in a different [30:10] version. Just as the heavens cannot be [30:11] measured and the foundation of the earth [30:13] cannot be explored, so I will not [30:15] consider casting them away forever for [30:18] their sins. I the Lord have spoken. [30:21] >> Christians like to say, "But they [30:23] rejected Jesus, so this must have been [30:26] like this unforgivable sin, right?" [30:28] That's what And I heard that at a [30:29] birthday party and you know, that's like [30:31] that's where the theology that we've [30:33] caught we don't even realize is, you [30:35] know, kind of gotten into our mindset. [30:38] Um, but what does that look like a [30:40] father who would reject his children for [30:43] sins, for rejecting him. Oh, you [30:45] rejected me, so I'm rejecting you. You [30:47] know, that's We've talked about this [30:48] before. That's called punitive [30:50] supersessionism. And that if we believe [30:53] that, then we have a wonky view of God [30:55] as a father. [30:56] >> Mhm. [30:57] >> It's not helpful at all. [30:58] >> So, this is a great scripture to to just [31:00] walk through with your kids, especially [31:01] because you you can weave in and just [31:04] read and say, "Hey, God did promise he [31:05] would make a new covenant." But, that [31:07] new covenant didn't mean he was going to [31:09] bump somebody out to bring somebody in. [31:11] It's what we call here addition [31:13] theology. Dr. Dan Juster was the one who [31:14] really [31:15] helps point that out, and it's based out [31:17] of Romans 11, which is what I'll I'll [31:19] read some next, because this is another [31:21] key area of scripture that you can read [31:23] with your kids, and you can show them [31:25] God's plan was always through Abraham to [31:28] reach the nations. So, he chose one [31:30] family to reach all families. Just like [31:33] he will put his salvation on on one of [31:36] you, and he'll use you to reach your [31:38] family or your extended family or your [31:40] friends in your school or your friends [31:42] at work. So, God's always about the [31:44] particular to reach the universal, and [31:47] you can read through that in Jeremiah [31:49] 31, that there's a new covenant, but [31:50] then he makes it very clear, "I'm not [31:52] going to reject Israel so long as there [31:54] are stars to light the night and sun to [31:57] light the day." [31:57] >> That's pretty concrete. [31:58] >> It's pretty concrete. And then this [32:00] one's pretty concrete, too, because then [32:02] some of the objection to that can be, [32:04] "Well, that's the Old Testament, you [32:05] know? Like that writer Jeremiah didn't [32:07] have the full understanding." Let's see [32:09] what the New Testament has to say, okay? [32:10] Let's bump over to Romans 11, who Paul, [32:13] a very [32:15] very well-learned student of scripture, [32:18] right? [32:18] >> I think as Christians we receive Paul, [32:20] right? [32:20] >> We do receive Paul. Yeah, like Paul's [32:22] like the hero, you know, Paul the [32:23] missionary. And most people don't [32:24] realize that Paul remained Jewish [32:27] through the rest of his life. Um [32:28] literally, you read about it in the book [32:30] of Acts, the last chapter of the book of [32:31] Acts, he's literally in Rome. This is [32:33] like the last picture of Paul's life, [32:35] and he is [32:36] all basically arguing with the Jewish [32:38] leaders to receive Jesus by saying he's [32:40] the Jewish Messiah, right? So, here's [32:42] what Paul says, "I ask then in Romans [32:44] 11:1, has the God rejected his people, [32:47] the Jewish people?" "Of course not." [32:49] Okay, there's one. [32:51] Then he goes through this long list and [32:53] he basically just talks about God's [32:54] covenant faithfulness to them. And then [32:57] he goes Romans 11:11, "Did God's people [32:59] stumble and fall beyond recovery?" This [33:02] sounds a lot like Jeremiah 31. "Of [33:04] course not." Then he says his purpose [33:06] was to make his salvation available to [33:08] the Gentiles and then the Jewish people [33:10] would be jealous and want it for [33:11] themselves. [33:12] So, this is family language really, [33:14] right? Where he's like, "Hey, God's [33:15] going to bring Gentiles. He's going to [33:17] add them into the story." And the [33:19] original family members are going to go, [33:21] "Um, you can't sit at that seat at the [33:23] table. That's our seat." [33:25] "Well, you aren't sitting here. So, then [33:27] God invited me to sit here." And then [33:29] they're going to go, "I want to sit at [33:30] the table." [33:31] Right? This is kind of the way he's [33:32] thinking. So, [33:33] any thoughts on the scripture? [33:35] >> No, it's just so good. I'm just so [33:36] thankful to be adopted into a family and [33:39] I do think a lot about the gospel and [33:42] the kingdom of God like I think a lot [33:44] about God and Jesus wanted us to think [33:47] of his father [33:48] the highest [33:50] like he's the most high God and he is a [33:53] father. And he um I think David says [33:57] this, he's a family man. And so, we [34:01] we do have to continue to think about it [34:03] like that and I I think about Romans 8, [34:05] I'll just say. And in God's family, we [34:08] are In Romans 8, it talks about being [34:10] sons and daughters and also heirs. And I [34:12] never used to know what the distinction [34:14] was with that until I started to realize [34:17] that sons and daughters does refer more [34:19] to who we are. So, we've been adopted in [34:22] and we have this essentially status. [34:25] It's just beautiful and we're so and [34:28] we're at peace with God because of it [34:29] and he He our father. But also, we're [34:31] heirs in his family business. And that's [34:35] referring to what he's called us to do, [34:37] you know? And so I'm just so thankful [34:39] for the Holy Spirit because he knits our [34:41] identity as non-Jews and as the nations [34:44] into this tree in Romans. We need the [34:47] Holy Spirit to help when, you know, [34:48] adoption is something you've got to get [34:51] um that orphan mindset out of yourself [34:53] and not only that, but the nations [34:55] This is big picture, but the nations [34:57] have always struggled with idolatry, you [35:00] know? And that was something that we see [35:02] in the Bible that the nations round [35:04] about had all their different gods. And [35:06] at that time Israel was like, "Yeah, [35:07] well, who is the one true God?" And then [35:09] God shows himself to them through Egypt [35:10] and says, "I am." Like you have a lot of [35:12] spiritual powers around you. You can't [35:13] see them, but I'm the one who's the most [35:15] high God. I'm the one true God, the [35:17] creator of all of it. And the nations [35:19] were still in that bondage to these [35:21] different powers, right? So, [35:24] all that to say, we um we need the Holy [35:26] Spirit to help us heal from, you know, [35:30] from that [35:32] identity formation that can come, like, [35:34] you know, even in the New Testament they [35:35] were like, "Okay, how did the Gentiles [35:37] come to believe in Jesus?" Because they [35:39] they've had this lifestyle of going to [35:40] temples and making sacrifices to idols. [35:43] So, it had to get kind of get out of us. [35:45] And then also we need power by the Holy [35:48] Spirit to fulfill our our role as his [35:52] heirs and as kingdom ambassadors and to [35:54] do it in partnership with someone like [35:56] Israel who's who's different. So, all [35:58] that is just a big picture way of saying [36:00] like it's a beautiful picture that can [36:02] relate back to the tree picture, but we [36:04] need the Holy Spirit to help graft us [36:06] in, you know? And and so we can be [36:09] fruitful. [36:09] >> Yeah. [36:10] >> You know? [36:11] >> That well, that bounces into this next [36:12] scripture that we wanted to share, which [36:13] is in Ephesians 3. So, [36:15] um a lot of people know about Ephesians [36:17] 2 because Ephesians 2:8 is a very common [36:19] scripture that really talks about we're [36:20] saved by faith through grace, [36:23] uh not by our works. But Paul is [36:25] actually he's kind of building up into [36:27] Ephesians 3 where he's trying to help [36:29] the Gentile Ephesian church understand [36:32] the rooted nature of what they're being [36:34] adopted into. And so in Ephesians 3 he [36:37] says basically you know, there's this [36:41] secret plan. God reveals it to me. Um we [36:44] didn't know about it long ago but but [36:46] God's yeah and basically he's revealing [36:49] this mystery to me and this is what it [36:50] says. This is the New Living Translation [36:52] so it says it [36:53] a certain way. Ephesians 3:6. This is [36:56] the secret plan. [36:57] The Gentiles have an equal share with [37:01] the Jewish people in all the riches [37:03] inherited by God's children. [37:06] So we have typically read that. And you [37:08] can talk this through with your kids [37:09] that a lot of Christians read that and [37:11] say, "Oh, it's again this idea that we [37:13] bumped somebody else out." That the [37:15] Gentiles are in and the Jews are out. [37:17] But that's not what Paul says here. He [37:19] says we have an equal share with them. [37:21] >> Yeah, and then a lot of versions say, [37:24] "We are heirs together with Israel. [37:26] Gentiles are heirs together with [37:29] Israel." So it's not an exclusive [37:31] language or excluding, it's inclusive. [37:33] >> Yeah. So it says both groups have [37:35] believed the good news cuz Paul knew [37:37] he's a Jewish believer. And there's all [37:39] sorts of Jewish believers coming to [37:40] faith. So both groups, Jews and [37:42] Gentiles, were believing the good news [37:43] of Jesus and now it says they're part of [37:45] the same body and enjoy the promise of [37:48] blessings through Christ Jesus. And then [37:50] actually to go back to what you're [37:51] saying earlier, Tabitha, it goes all the [37:53] way down and Paul has this great prayer [37:54] that a lot of Christians know. You know, [37:56] when I think of the wisdom and the scope [37:58] of God's plan I fall to my knees and [37:59] pray to the Father. And it and then it [38:01] says this. It says, "I pray that from [38:03] his glorious unlimited resources." This [38:05] is verse 16. "He'll give you mighty [38:07] inner strength through his Holy Spirit. [38:10] And I pray that uh Christ, Yeshua, will [38:12] be more and more at home in your hearts [38:14] as you uh trust in him and may your grow [38:16] roots go down deep into the soil of [38:18] God's marvelous love." This is what you [38:20] You said, we need the Holy Spirit to [38:21] help us be fruitful. [38:22] >> Mhm. [38:23] >> And [38:23] >> knit us together. [38:24] >> And knit us together. That's right. To [38:25] give us identity. [38:26] >> he was I I believe that he was [38:29] overwhelmed because he was seeing this [38:31] is this mystery is is how we actually [38:35] fulfill our purpose. It's together. [38:38] >> Yeah. [38:39] >> And it will only be together that we [38:41] finish our race. And I'm saying this in [38:42] in a I'm talking corporately. Um Israel [38:46] and and the church, the believers in [38:48] Jesus in all nations. And [38:50] you know, it's there's kind of the [38:52] implications of that are things that [38:54] Christians really care about. [38:56] >> Yeah. [38:56] >> You know, like the the return of Jesus, [38:58] the Messiah, or um world revival. We [39:01] believe this is is key to that. I mean, [39:03] we're talking big things here, not just [39:05] like [39:06] little [39:07] little things. [39:08] >> No, they are big things. It's very true. [39:10] Yeah. Um and and this isn't a main [39:13] point, but it's another thing to remind [39:15] to to ground our kids in the biblical [39:18] worldview that Jesus will return to [39:21] Earth. [39:22] He's coming back to Earth. [39:24] >> to put his feet on the ground [39:25] >> we live on. Not the Earth that's like [39:27] some mythical Earth like Star Treky [39:30] sci-fi, like real Earth. And he's going [39:32] to put his feet on the ground somewhere. [39:34] And the Bible says that place is [39:35] Jerusalem. [39:36] >> Yeah. [39:36] >> The same Jerusalem that's there today. [39:39] >> Yeah. [39:39] >> Not a different Jerusalem. [39:41] >> Mhm. [39:41] >> Not Jerusalem, Texas. There's probably a [39:43] Jerusalem, Texas cuz there's Paris, [39:44] Texas, Rome, Texas, right? Like [39:46] Jerusalem, Israel. And it's good to be [39:49] reminded of that that that we that's [39:52] going to happen. Like we are part of [39:53] this grand story. And us as believers in [39:56] Jesus that have attached ourselves to [39:58] his kingdom [39:59] like we are sharing with the Jewish [40:01] people in that reality. That when he [40:03] comes back to establish his kingdom, [40:04] we're in it with them. [40:06] >> Right. [40:06] >> Not all of us and not them, but like [40:09] with them. [40:09] >> Mhm. [40:10] >> Yeah. All right. So, we're going to do [40:11] one more scripture, then we're going to [40:12] get into some [40:14] um [40:14] >> Yeah, this scripture is a good [40:15] connection point. [40:16] >> will bounce us into some of the last [40:18] part that we're going to walk through [40:20] here as we finish, which is the [40:22] practicality of the loadedness of this [40:24] issue that you're going to have to [40:25] navigate through with terms and [40:27] ideologies. [40:28] >> And it is probably I think it's [40:30] important or I believe it's important [40:32] and I think it's you can do it in [40:34] age-appropriate ways to tell your kids [40:36] that in their day and age today [40:38] um there's a lot of conversation about [40:41] Israel and Jewish people. [40:43] And it's important for Christians to be [40:45] their friends and we believe partners um [40:48] that we were just talking about but um [40:51] so even at a young age you can you can [40:54] share with them there's there's a lot of [40:55] people who have [40:58] um biases, prejudices, or hatefulness [41:02] toward Israel as a nation or just Jewish [41:05] people in general. [41:06] >> Yeah. [41:07] >> You know, it's really people and it's a [41:08] peoplehood. So right now people are [41:11] saying it's okay to be a Jew but it's [41:13] not okay to have Jewish people. [41:15] You know what I'm saying? And so now so [41:17] but that it doesn't connect. That's [41:19] actually telling someone they can't be [41:21] who they are essentially. So it's like [41:23] you're you're okay to be a Jewish [41:24] individual. We're not anti-Semitic. [41:25] We're just anti-Zionist. So but that you [41:29] you know, every every people group has [41:32] um cannot but inevitably be a group of [41:35] people with a community and also then [41:39] uh they have they are a nation and they [41:41] need a government and you know, so all [41:43] of that it's very nuanced and we can [41:44] talk about it but it's helpful just to [41:46] share with your kids, you know, they're [41:48] you know, for example, this scripture. [41:50] You want me to read it? [41:50] >> Yeah, go for it. [41:51] >> Um even now it's from Psalm 83:2-5. [41:55] Even now your enemies are in tumult. [41:57] This is talking to the Lord. Those who [41:59] hate you have raised their heads. They [42:01] lay crafty plans against your people. [42:03] They consult together against those you [42:05] protect. They say, "Come, let us wipe [42:08] them out as a nation. Let the the of [42:10] Israel be remembered no more. And and so [42:14] just to you know, go ahead and I I [42:16] believe it's important to tell our kids [42:17] today's attacks on Israel and the Jewish [42:19] people, they are an ancient pattern and [42:23] it's actually they're using some of the [42:25] same language even today. [42:27] >> Yeah. [42:28] >> You know? [42:29] >> Yeah, it's true. [42:29] >> And and we need to be aware that there's [42:31] a spiritual element to this and that an [42:34] attack on [42:36] these people is a real sign that God's [42:39] not finished with them and that God [42:41] their God. You know what I'm saying? Cuz [42:43] you know, recently someone told me they [42:44] were like, I don't think Jewish people [42:45] worship the same God as they did in the [42:47] Old Testament. I'm like, no, he has not [42:48] pulled a switcheroo on them. No, they [42:50] still worship the same God, the God of [42:52] Abraham. [42:54] They still worship the same God, the God [42:55] of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. [42:57] >> Mhm. [42:59] Yeah, it's true. [43:00] That was such a good point. [43:02] >> [laughter] [43:02] >> I'm sorry, everybody. [43:04] No, but it is a good point. We've said [43:05] that. [43:05] >> start over anywhere or whatever? [43:07] >> We're going to keep rolling. Um this is [43:08] this is the this is a real [43:10] behind-the-scenes podcast today. [43:11] >> Yeah. [43:11] >> [laughter] [43:11] >> Yeah. So [43:13] Right. We don't We you and I don't know [43:15] any other way. Yeah, we'll argue in [43:17] front of people. [43:17] >> Yeah, no, but it's just you know, [43:19] thousands of years ago they're using the [43:20] same language. [43:21] >> Yeah, but yet [43:22] We've said this here many times and I [43:24] think this is a helpful construct when [43:25] you talk to your kids to say it this [43:27] way, whatever God chooses [43:29] >> Mhm. [43:30] >> the adversary of God, who the Bible says [43:33] is Satan, [43:34] he will hate it. [43:35] >> Mhm. [43:36] >> Because if it matters to God, he will go [43:38] after it. You know, David has said this [43:40] before like [43:41] you see movies about this, right? Like [43:43] people who go after people's kids to [43:45] hold them ransom because the most [43:47] important thing to you, the power of [43:49] darkness will go attack it. So why has [43:51] God why is there this history of [43:53] anti-Semitism, of violent hatred against [43:56] Jewish people, and then why is there [43:57] just tension and hatred over the land? [44:00] Because God chose both of them. He [44:02] basically says, I put my name on a [44:03] people. [44:04] That's what he told Abraham, I'm going [44:06] to put my name on you. And then he tells [44:08] the Jewish people like everywhere you [44:09] went you defamed my name. [44:11] >> his reputation to them. He's put his [44:12] reputation on them. [44:13] That's what it means to put your name on [44:15] them. So, as they go, so goes the main [44:18] witness to him, the most outstanding [44:21] witness to is he really faithful, is he [44:23] really powerful, is he really God or [44:25] not. [44:26] >> Yeah. Is he the most high or not? [44:27] >> Yeah. So, he puts his name on a people [44:29] and then he puts his name on a place. It [44:31] says it in Isaiah 49, God is going to [44:32] put his name on Jerusalem. And you and I [44:34] both know if you look at it [44:36] geographically, literally the Hebrew [44:39] etymological letter for his name, Shem, [44:42] is literally stamped in the geography of [44:44] Israel. [44:44] >> That's neat. [44:45] >> So, [44:45] >> So cool. [44:46] >> the the enemy's going to attack his [44:48] people and his place. [44:50] And whether we like it or not, as [44:52] followers of Jesus, [44:54] that we will be a residual [44:57] target of attack, too. [44:59] Because we're putting our name in our [45:00] our hope in the name of the God of [45:02] Israel. And we're actually putting our [45:03] faith in a Jewish Messiah. So, at the [45:06] very end of days, [45:08] like [45:08] >> Well, I think today we're seeing a lot [45:10] of anti-Semitism, but I would think that [45:14] the delegitimization and the attacks, I [45:16] don't know how much time it would take [45:18] for it to come toward Christians as [45:20] well. If they won't just somehow join [45:23] in, you know what I mean? Like it's it's [45:24] probably very likely. I think it's [45:26] probably the pattern, you know, so [45:28] >> So, let's let's let's um [45:29] >> have to take that kind of a sober [45:31] thought, but it's important. It just [45:33] proves the point, you know. [45:35] >> Okay, we're going to wind this down by [45:36] getting really practical because [45:38] >> it cuz you're you're more of an expert [45:39] on this than I am, so. [45:41] >> Well, words create worlds and words [45:44] matter. And a lot of what is argued [45:46] about today in culture wars is just [45:48] language. It's buzzwords, it's trigger [45:51] words, [45:52] um and it's all very real, right? So, [45:55] words like Zion, Israel, Jews, all of [45:58] these are buzzwords that are created by [46:00] people who have a an agenda against [46:03] >> Or they can be. Those are solid words [46:05] themselves, but they will take them and [46:07] use them [46:07] >> like you're a Zionist or are you a [46:09] Zionist? And so that's something [46:11] >> meaning. [46:11] >> Yeah, that's something that your kids [46:13] are going to ask maybe. Like are we [46:15] Zionist mom and dad? Like because people [46:18] are going through my school going [46:20] looking for Zionist. [46:21] >> Like Zionism is yeah, people literally [46:23] believe Zionism is like the source of [46:25] all evil or something. I mean it has [46:27] gotten really bad. [46:28] >> And Zionism is just basically this. [46:30] >> Oh, it's very basic. [46:31] >> biblical term that essentially means it [46:34] is about the return of the Jewish people [46:36] to their biblical homeland which is in [46:38] Israel. So if you're a Zionist what that [46:40] really just means at base level is that [46:42] you believe the Jewish people have a [46:43] place in a land and that land is Israel. [46:46] And the Bible calls it [46:47] >> here. [46:48] >> Yeah. Right, you can be a Jew there. [46:50] Yeah. [46:50] >> And in Zion is the biblical name for [46:52] Jerusalem and sometimes refers to the to [46:55] the land of Israel, but a lot of times [46:56] it's just refers to Jerusalem the [46:58] capital. [46:58] >> Yeah. So then we have Israel. So Israel [47:01] has multiple meanings in scripture. [47:03] Um God renames Jacob Israel which just [47:06] means um wrestles with God. So you have [47:09] Israel the people, but then you have a [47:10] modern [47:12] um ethno-religious [47:14] national reality called Israel the [47:16] nation state. [47:17] >> Mhm. [47:18] >> And the the Bible [47:20] um there was the people of Israel, but [47:22] it really was like in David's time it [47:24] was [47:24] >> What? [47:25] >> a national reality. But for the most [47:27] part like in Jesus' time it was the [47:29] people of Judah. It was the the region [47:31] of Judea. And so in 1948 [47:34] >> down to that. [47:35] >> Yeah, in 1948 it was reestablished as [47:37] the state of Israel. [47:39] >> Mhm. [47:39] >> And so you have Israel the people, you [47:42] have Israel the land. [47:43] And that's really what that means. It's [47:45] a [47:46] >> It's a person. [47:47] >> It's a people. [47:48] >> Yeah. [47:48] >> And it's a land. [47:49] >> Yeah. So the land needs a people and the [47:52] people need a land. Right, it's pretty [47:54] basic. Um so this is the modern state. [47:56] Now, here's a here's one that [47:59] needs some clarification and that is [48:02] Israel is also a modern [48:04] um, national entity, right? So, you have [48:08] a a land of Israel where Jewish people [48:10] live and have lived since 1948, since [48:13] they reestablished the state, but then [48:14] you also have the government of Israel. [48:16] >> Mhm. [48:16] >> So, there's a difference between the [48:18] two. There's America, then there's the [48:21] American government. This isn't really [48:23] that hard, but for some reason with [48:24] Israel, people who are antagonistic [48:26] towards they like to merge the two [48:28] together and create one thing. [48:30] >> Yeah. [48:30] >> But we wouldn't do that here. I would [48:33] say, I'm an American and I love America. [48:36] I don't love my government. [48:37] >> Always. Sometimes, well, yeah, sometimes [48:40] we're very pleased, sometimes we're not, [48:41] but we know how to differentiate. [48:43] >> Yeah, I don't love I don't love my [48:44] government, sorry. Like, I'm never going [48:45] to love the government. [48:46] >> [laughter] [48:46] >> Just won't. I don't I'm not going to lay [48:48] down next to the government at night. I [48:49] won't do that. But, right? But it's the [48:52] same thing in Israel. What people don't [48:53] realize is that the the people of Israel [48:56] who live there today, the citizens of [48:58] that state, they argue passionately [49:01] about what their government does and [49:03] doesn't do. [49:04] There is it is not 50/50 even. It is [49:07] like on certain issues, what the state [49:09] of Israel does in the West Bank region, [49:12] what the state of Israel does in wars, [49:14] what the state of Israel does in its own [49:17] national policies, like there's a lot of [49:19] difference of opinion there. [49:21] >> Right, there it's a very diverse people, [49:23] just like America, just like any other [49:25] nation. [49:27] And then the government is representing [49:29] those people, but there's a relationship [49:31] there that is sometimes strained, [49:33] sometimes good, sometimes the government [49:35] represents more or less, and right now [49:39] the government represents a certain [49:41] um, [49:42] particular kind of stream of their [49:44] politics, you know, kind of more right [49:46] wing, but um, and they have a there's a [49:49] relationship there. They can't have one [49:50] without the other. Like, people can't be [49:52] expected to survive without a [49:54] government. So we can't, you know, [49:55] condemn the nation simply because they [49:57] have a government who's making decisions [49:59] that might be good or bad. [50:00] >> Yeah. [50:00] >> So, you know, there's that nuance there. [50:02] >> to mention Romans 15 talks about this. [50:04] Paul talks about government. [50:05] Government's used by God. [50:07] >> Mhm. [50:07] >> So it's just interesting because we'll [50:09] make that tolerance [50:11] sometimes as Christians in America, but [50:12] then when it comes to Israel, [50:14] for whatever reason we excuse any [50:16] tolerances. [50:17] >> Mhm. [50:17] >> And you made a great point that the [50:20] government of Israel is not Benjamin [50:21] Netanyahu or even his party. They're the [50:24] current coalition leaders, [50:25] >> Mhm. [50:26] >> but there's a lot of people that have a [50:28] lot of opinions in Israel about them. [50:31] >> And we know a lot of believers in Jesus [50:33] that are not big fans of Bibi Netanyahu. [50:36] So again, for a lot of Christians who [50:39] love Israel, what what you'll hear and [50:42] what your kids are going to hear is oh, [50:43] so you're a you're a Bibi. There's a [50:45] term for this, right? Like [50:46] >> know yet. There's a lot of language. [50:48] >> you know, and they collapse everything [50:49] in a Bibi. Again, if you're an American, [50:52] it doesn't necessarily mean you are like [50:55] everything that America represents is [50:57] Donald Trump and vice versa. [50:58] >> Right. [50:59] >> We have to hold the nuances of this. [51:00] >> Yes. [51:01] >> And that's why it's such a complicated [51:02] topic. [51:03] >> Yeah, and you have to ask questions [51:04] about what you're being told. [51:05] >> That's right. [51:06] >> So Christian Zionism, we're just going [51:08] through some terms. That's just us as [51:10] followers of Jesus basically affirming [51:12] the fact that the Jewish people have an [51:13] ancient homeland in the in the land of [51:15] Israel where it currently is today. [51:18] We're not arguing about the outlines of [51:19] the country and whether or not they [51:21] should have full sovereignty in every [51:24] little corner of the area of land. [51:26] That's a political conversation. [51:28] >> Mhm. [51:28] >> Right? What we're saying is we believe [51:30] that Jewish people have a right to an [51:32] ancient homeland that the Bible talks [51:34] about. They have a right to safety in [51:36] that land. And they have a right to make [51:38] up their own minds on what they want to [51:40] do in that land. [51:41] >> Mhm. [51:42] >> Like at the end of the day, whether we [51:43] can tell them [51:45] that's not a very good idea, right? But [51:47] what we believe is they should be able [51:49] to determine how they live their life [51:51] >> Mhm. [51:51] >> as Jewish people. Just like I don't go [51:53] wagging my finger at how French people [51:55] live. [51:56] >> Mhm. That's good. [51:56] >> Sam and I have had conversations with [51:58] this Sam is a French guy on our team, [52:00] so. [52:00] >> Yeah. No, it's good. And there's a there [52:02] is a spectrum within even who people who [52:04] would call themselves Christian [52:05] Zionists, too. And our, you know, even [52:08] our view is very nuanced, too, as well. [52:12] And that's something we encourage you, [52:13] you know, anyone to check out our videos [52:15] and continue to learn because we feel [52:16] like our perspective is really unique [52:18] even within the Christian Zionism camp, [52:20] you know. [52:20] >> That's true. Yeah, and I would say in [52:22] one of the recent podcasts that David [52:24] and I did, actually, we talked a little [52:26] bit about that, how we felt to set the [52:28] the Center for Israel up and the the [52:30] distinctive values of the Center for [52:31] Israel as in a a bit of a different [52:34] flavor of Christian Zionism. So, not [52:36] that we're judging Christian Zionism, [52:38] but just that we feel like there were [52:39] some things left wanting. [52:41] >> Yeah. [52:41] >> we're wrapping up. What do we want to [52:43] say? [52:43] >> think just thinking about if there, you [52:45] know, were any parents or grandparents [52:47] listening, I would just encourage them. [52:49] My daughter said something really wise [52:50] um the other day cuz she was talking [52:52] with a friend, and he's listening to [52:54] voices online that are truly [52:57] anti-Semitic and actually pretty [52:59] irrational. Just these ideas and claims [53:01] that you would never even be able to I [53:03] mean, they're not they're it's just it's [53:05] not about the rationality of it all, you [53:07] know, and we can talk about that later. [53:09] But um [53:11] she she just decided, you know what, [53:12] though, if if my friend loves Jesus, [53:16] then he's on a journey here, and there's [53:19] always hope. When someone's following [53:20] Jesus, if they um [53:23] if they continue to seek him and receive [53:26] him how he's presented himself, then it [53:29] will begin to help them through this day [53:32] and age where all these ideas are flying [53:34] around to a place where they [53:37] um you know, hopefully do not uh [53:41] take on anti-Semitic views. And then, [53:43] not only do they not take on an [53:44] aggressive or arrogant view of Israel, [53:46] but then on the flip side, there's, you [53:49] know, the opportunity to to relate and [53:52] love and in honor and in humility, and [53:54] these are our prayers, [53:56] >> Yeah. [53:56] >> you know, for our kids. But just also [53:58] just how important prayer is, you know, [54:00] I I pray all the time before I have [54:02] conversations, and the Holy Spirit and [54:04] God's word will help us through these [54:06] tricky conversations, whatever the [54:07] topic. [54:08] >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, I think [54:10] in summary, you know, [54:13] my brain is just alliterating. I can't [54:14] help it. But you want to be caring in [54:17] the conversation. You want it to be a [54:18] conversation with your kids, not you [54:21] telling them [54:21] >> That's right. [54:22] >> things. So, you want it to be [54:23] conversational. You want it to be [54:24] caring. You want to be curious. [54:26] >> Mhm, that's good. [54:27] >> Like the more curious you can be as a [54:29] parent, man, what do you think about [54:31] that? [54:32] Like your friend said that, man, what do [54:33] you think? Like where is this unclear to [54:35] you? [54:36] Or like I'm going to read you a [54:37] scripture. [54:38] Tell me what comes up inside you when I [54:40] read this. Like do you feel like, oh, [54:42] that's like fundamentalist, Dad, you [54:44] know? Like let's just be curious about [54:46] it. And then I think we want to be [54:47] committed to the word of God. At the end [54:50] of the day, we're going to have to just [54:52] be able to tell our kids, look, some [54:53] things in the Bible we're going to fall [54:55] back on the word of God every day of the [54:57] week. And it might not make sense [54:59] >> Mhm. to the kids in your class. Um it [55:01] might not even be something that like [55:03] you can rationalize, [55:06] but it's the word of God and it's true. [55:07] >> That's right. Sometimes things don't [55:08] make sense until we act upon them, too. [55:10] >> That's true. [55:11] >> You know? [55:11] >> Yeah. [55:12] >> So, that's so good. [55:13] >> Exactly. And I think it's just good to [55:15] realize that there's a lot [55:16] environmentally happening that's clear [55:18] to us that's unclear to them because [55:20] we've had a lot of time to think. Like [55:23] this morning when we dropped our [55:25] daughter off at school, there's like [55:27] this whole thing with homecoming, da da [55:28] da da so a guy asked her to homecoming. [55:31] It's a really big deal. And then Tabitha [55:33] was telling me on the way, she's like, [55:35] she just didn't seem to be like [55:37] processing [55:37] >> able to process She just kind of shut [55:39] down. She's like, "I need a moment to [55:40] think. [55:41] >> Yeah. [55:41] >> I can't think with you two though. [55:42] >> But I told her, I was like, "Yeah, but [55:44] the mom texted you last night before we [55:45] went to bed that her son was going to [55:47] ask. So, we've been thinking about it [55:48] for 12 hours, right?" And sometimes we [55:50] have to realize that as parents, we live [55:52] saturated with a reality or a [55:54] perspective that our kids are coming [55:56] into for the first time. That's the [55:57] point of being patient, being caring, [55:59] and being curious in the conversation is [56:01] just to realize, "Hey, we're going to [56:02] help build for them a biblical worldview [56:05] that's rooted in scripture, but that [56:06] deals with the nuance." [56:07] >> Yes. [56:08] >> And I think it's good that for for [56:09] parents to even say like, "I don't know [56:11] the answer to that. I want to find out. [56:12] Like, let's find out together. [56:14] >> Yeah. [56:14] >> Let's go watch some stuff, or let's [56:15] learn some stuff, or let's invite [56:17] Tabitha to come over to our small group [56:18] and teach us all." [56:19] >> Oh. [56:20] Thanks. [56:20] >> Right? [56:21] >> That's nice. [56:21] >> do that. We can put you on the road. If [56:23] you want to have Tabitha come and speak [56:24] to your small group, write in to [56:26] info@centerforisrael.com. [56:28] She's ready to get on a plane and come [56:30] and see you and and walk you through all [56:32] of this. So, you did a great job. [56:34] >> Oh, thanks. [56:34] >> Anything else you want to add? [56:36] >> I don't think so. [56:37] >> Okay. [56:38] >> You wrapped it up well. [56:39] >> You want to pray for everybody? [56:40] >> Sure, I'd be happy to. [56:41] >> who are going to have kids conversation [56:42] with their kids. [56:43] >> Oh, yeah, for sure. Cuz I do think Yeah, [56:45] I do. Well, thank you Thank you, Lord, [56:48] for this time, and I do pray for every [56:50] person listening. I mean, we've already [56:52] prayed for them, and we have them on our [56:54] minds. We want to be helpful today, so [56:56] we hope we pray that it has. And we also [56:59] pray that you would just encourage them [57:01] that they would not feel overwhelmed, [57:03] but they would just feel like they can [57:04] take steps um because a lot of this [57:06] really does connect back to just the [57:08] challenges of parenting overall. So, we [57:11] do pray that you would be with them. You [57:12] would um [57:13] speak to them, remind them of your [57:15] presence, help them, and that you would [57:18] bless their relationship with their [57:19] kids, and they would have really [57:21] fruitful conversations. We pray in [57:23] Jesus' name. Amen. [57:24] >> Amen. Well, thank you, everyone, for [57:26] tuning in. If this was helpful, please [57:28] let us know. We always love hearing back [57:31] from you, or if there's questions that [57:32] you feel like we could have covered and [57:34] we didn't, put it in the comments, send [57:36] us an email info@centerforisrael.com. [57:38] We really love to hear from you and let [57:41] us know if you have a conversation with [57:43] your kids about this and how it goes or [57:44] if there's any additional resources that [57:46] we can help you in uh as you have those [57:48] conversations. But, we love you, we [57:50] bless you, we'll see you next time on [57:52] the Covenant Conflict Podcast.
