Transcript [00:00] On October 7th, 2023, Taran Thomas was a [00:02] sophomore at Stanford University when [00:04] she got swept into the pro Palestine [00:06] activism movement. Other activists told [00:08] her there were parallels between the pro [00:10] Palestine cause and black subjugation. [00:13] Her questions about the slaughtering of [00:15] civilians and hostages were met with [00:17] what aboutism and slogans such as [00:19] resistance is justified when Palestine [00:22] is occupied. and she accepted that [00:24] framing without knowing all the facts or [00:26] even knowing what really happened on [00:29] October 7th. Taran was allin. She took [00:32] part in the first encampments that [00:34] appeared on campuses across the country [00:37] and fully submitted to the group think [00:40] that Hamas was a legitimate resistance [00:42] group. It wasn't until the Stanford [00:44] protest broke into a building and turned [00:46] violent in June of 2024 that she began [00:49] to question the narrative. A visit to a [00:51] Nova Festival exhibit in LA and later to [00:53] Israel changed everything. This is our [00:55] conversation about how a well-meaning, [00:57] highly educated young person can fall [01:00] into a destructive movement and what it [01:02] takes to find your way out. [01:10] I want to [music] start with, you know, [01:12] who you are, how you got to Stanford, [01:14] and how you found yourself [music] in [01:17] the anti-Israel movement on campus. I [01:20] came from a Christian family and I grew [01:22] up in a pretty conservative Trumpup [01:24] supporting town in Southern California. [01:27] And so I had dealt with a fair share of [01:29] racism growing up in a predominantly [01:31] white area. [01:32] >> And I think like th those experiences [01:35] pushed me so far to the left. Um simply [01:39] because like you know when you feel like [01:41] you have no room um on one side, you [01:45] kind of get pulled to the other, right? [01:47] And so, uh, I felt like the activist [01:50] space was where I thrived and that was [01:53] like also why I I applied to Stanford [01:56] because of how liberal it was and I've [01:59] heard so many compliments about how [02:01] accepting the Bay Area was. [02:02] >> Tell me about joining the pro [02:04] Palestinian movement on campus and what [02:06] your involvement looked like [02:08] pre-occtober 7th. [02:09] >> Before Stanford, I was already an [02:11] activist. I was heavily involved with [02:13] the Black Lives Matter movement when I [02:15] was 16 years old. I was going to BLM [02:17] protests and that was like when I [02:19] initially I had first saw like [02:20] Palestinian flags and um I remember [02:24] hearing like chants like no one is free [02:26] until Palestine is free and that black [02:28] liberation is bound to Palestinian [02:30] liberation and to me at the time it like [02:33] made sense um just because like I mean [02:37] I'm not Jewish. I'm not I don't have any [02:38] connection to Israel, but like the way [02:41] that they framed it was very simple that [02:42] there's an oppressor and that there's an [02:44] oppressed and if you cared about [02:45] justice, you know what side you're on, [02:48] >> right? [02:48] >> So when I got to campus, like it it [02:51] joining the pro Palestine movement [02:53] didn't really feel like a leap. It just [02:54] felt like the natural like next step for [02:57] someone who cares about activism and [02:59] justice. [03:00] >> So come October 7th, um what was your [03:03] understanding of of what had actually [03:06] happened? What what did you hear? [03:08] >> When it was October 7th, I was on I [03:10] remember I was on campus and I was um in [03:13] my dorm room scrolling through my phone [03:14] and I remember seeing post after post of [03:17] of Palestinian flags. And I'm not going [03:20] to lie, I thought that Palestine had [03:22] gotten attacked because of how much of [03:24] an outpour of support it was they were [03:26] receiving. Obviously, until I like [03:29] learned more, I was seeing like context [03:32] and people saying um things about [03:36] resistance and what Israel had done to [03:38] cause it. And so I received kind of like [03:41] a prepackaged conclusion of like what [03:43] had happened, why it happened, and it [03:45] wasn't even the conversation wasn't even [03:47] about the people who were killed at the [03:48] point. Um, I remember like hearing like [03:52] how it was majority soldiers that were [03:55] killed. Um, and that it was like a [03:57] battle and and their underlying like [03:59] justification of that is that once [04:01] you're a soldier, you're always a [04:02] soldier and if you're a baby, you're a [04:04] future soldier. Um, since service is [04:07] mandatory. And so I just kind of like [04:10] absorbed this without really like [04:12] questioning because it was like so many [04:15] people at one time. It was hard to [04:18] question like the consensus, you know. [04:20] >> Yeah. I liked what you said that [04:22] prepackaged [04:24] um conclusion without even, you know, [04:26] talking about the facts on the ground [04:28] here when we're talking about a massacre [04:30] of 1,200 people, civilians, um an attack [04:33] on a on a music festival. Um, that's not [04:36] even without speaking of of the the 250 [04:39] um hostages. Did you ever watch the the [04:42] footage that Hamas filmed themselves and [04:44] and posted online? [04:46] >> No. Not on October 7th. Um, I the first [04:49] time I got to see footage was a year too [04:51] late. But yeah, that entire time of me [04:54] being in the pro Palestine space, we [04:56] never really talked about October 7th [04:58] and and what had happened or really [05:01] watched footage of what had happened. Um [05:03] it was more so like you know this war [05:06] started before October 7th like and so [05:09] it it just we always just skipped [05:12] October 7th. So post October 7th we saw [05:15] all these protests um you know rising [05:18] throughout campuses mostly in the United [05:20] States. Um tell me about your [05:23] participation specifically did it [05:25] escalate for you at Stanford? um what [05:29] changed on campus and and what did your [05:31] involvement become? [05:32] >> Immediately of the week of October 7th, [05:35] there was protests happening on campus. [05:37] We didn't even give them any time to [05:39] mourn the civilians that had lost their [05:41] lives. Um by October 20th, we had set up [05:46] our encampment as to stop the genocide. [05:49] So, we only gave them 13 days to warn. [05:51] And I just think about like I look back [05:53] at it, looking back at it, I just think [05:56] about the speed of how fast we were [05:59] moving. Um because I think like whoever [06:02] is able to get the narrative out first [06:04] and the fastest gets to control it. And [06:07] so I had joined in the very beginning. [06:09] Um we had a black students for Palestin [06:13] um it's like we had black students for [06:15] Palestinian relief and I helped with [06:17] getting people to call like their [06:19] congressmen to stop the genocide. And [06:22] ultimately, like with that fundraiser, [06:24] like we raised over like $4,000 [06:26] um to donate to charities, but only [06:30] later did I learn that the two charities [06:32] that we had sent money to were likely [06:35] having ties with Hamas. [06:37] >> You mentioned um that encampment by [06:40] October 20th. It's interesting because [06:42] by October 20th, there still hadn't been [06:44] any Israeli boots on the ground in Gaza. [06:47] Um, can you walk me through what you [06:51] felt so deeply in that moment that it [06:54] seemed beyond question? [06:56] >> I would say like first just as a black [06:59] woman, I already knew what it meant to [07:02] be on the wrong side of power and I [07:04] think I grafted my own history onto [07:08] theirs. Um, and of course like those [07:10] slogans of, you know, Palestinian [07:13] liberation is bound with black [07:14] liberation didn't help. And so [07:16] questioning [07:18] what had happened would feel like I [07:20] would have to question my own pain. And [07:22] so they didn't have to like really teach [07:23] me any words of like colonization, [07:25] dispossession or apartheid. And just [07:30] like my own outrage was kind of already [07:33] stockpiled in advance and so this was [07:36] the moment to spin it on. [07:37] >> Was there a cost to staying silent? [07:40] Yeah, there was a pretty big cost with [07:45] being silent. Uh, if you were silent, [07:49] you were complicit. Um, and I I just [07:53] know that the people that were viewed as [07:56] like neutral, for instance, they didn't, [08:00] you know, they got judged heavily. There [08:02] was a lot of silent uh judgment [08:05] happening. And I just knew that I didn't [08:07] want to get caught up in that. So, I [08:09] made sure I made my opinion the loudest. [08:12] I had to be first when when some news [08:14] broke um to always prove that I'm the [08:18] best ally or that I'm one of the good [08:21] ones. And so, um yeah, it was just no [08:25] longer like enough to be on the right [08:28] side of history, but to always prove [08:31] that you're on the right side. [08:33] >> How was this conflict? I mean, you [08:35] touched on this a little bit before, but [08:36] how was this conflict um sort of [08:39] simplified and repackaged for American [08:42] students to fit um that oppressor versus [08:46] um oppressed frame that that you [08:48] mentioned earlier? [08:49] >> Yeah. I mean, I think that this language [08:51] that we already speak is from American [08:55] race politics. Instead of like learning [08:57] the conflict on our own terms, we get [09:00] handed a frame. And it's very simple. [09:03] oppressor versus oppressed, colonizer [09:05] versus colonized. Um, Israel got casted [09:08] as like a a powerful white settler. Um, [09:12] meanwhile, Palestinians are the people [09:14] of color fighting back. So, it looked [09:17] very familiar, you know, and and in that [09:20] familiarity, we we mistook it for [09:21] understanding. [09:23] So when we hear those words like [09:26] apartheid genocide, settler colonialism, [09:30] it does a lot of work because it tells [09:32] you how to feel before you even really [09:34] know a single fact. So I think like in [09:39] particular for American students, you [09:41] can repost something in two seconds and [09:44] feel righteous in what you're doing. You [09:46] don't have to necessarily like prove [09:48] that you know that what Hamas is doing [09:51] or who has Hezbollah is or what the Iran [09:55] axis of resistance is. It was just [09:58] Israel versus helpless civilians. Um, [10:02] you know, I didn't even really know that [10:04] it was like a sevenfront war, but in [10:06] order to simplify it, you have to have [10:08] only two people that were focusing on. [10:10] >> Some people argue you can support [10:12] Palestinian um self-determination and [10:15] Israel's right to exist and its security [10:17] at the same time. within the movements [10:20] um that you were a part of, was there [10:22] room for that position? Was there room [10:24] for conversation [10:26] um or or did it consistently collapse to [10:28] one side? And was there ever any sort of [10:31] um real debate with the other side? Was [10:34] there room for debate? [10:36] >> Not really. Like in theory, a lot of [10:38] people said that they supported peace, [10:41] but in reality, like the two-state [10:44] solution was treated as like a Zionist [10:46] position. I at one point had held that [10:49] position and I had said so out loud and [10:53] immediately I felt like judged and they [10:55] said, you know, you do know that makes [10:57] you a Zionist. And I think like the [11:01] movement doesn't frame Israel as like a [11:04] country with a bad government. It frames [11:05] the whole existence of Israel as a [11:08] problem. So when you accept like this [11:10] settler colonialism as the starting [11:12] point, there's nothing negotiate. you [11:15] don't want to make peace with a [11:17] colonizer, you want to dismantle it. [11:19] That's why we talk about like land back. [11:21] Um, and so I think a lot of times when [11:25] you do try to make those concessions and [11:28] try to both sides, it it's viewed as [11:32] like a betrayal. Um, and even just the [11:36] thought of becoming a Zionist was like a [11:38] slur. Um, so I think like [11:44] in terms of for for debate in [11:47] particular, it was viewed as pointless. [11:51] You know, talking to pro-Israel students [11:53] felt like you're legitimizing them and [11:55] you're normalizing their position. Um, [11:58] when it's the immoral position. Uh, we [12:02] in our encampment, we had a counter [12:04] encampment. It was like called the blue [12:06] and white tent, our pro-Israel tent. And [12:11] the message on our side wasn't to go [12:12] talk to them. It was that they're the [12:14] enemy. And even being seen with them [12:17] would raise questions about you. [12:18] >> It's interesting that you mentioned um [12:22] their reaction to you wanting to talk to [12:24] the other side and and threatening you [12:26] by um calling you a Zionist. um the [12:29] weaponization of that word has been so [12:32] interesting um to see play out on on [12:35] college campuses and how that term [12:37] Zionist which is really the the the [12:39] Jewish right to self-determination [12:41] um in their ancesttoral homeland which [12:43] is does not go against the two-state [12:45] solution by the way um how that has been [12:49] used against the pro-Israel camp [12:52] >> Zionists weren't just seen as like [12:54] people with a different opinion it it [12:57] was a moral defect effect. It's the word [13:00] itself became its own slur. It was okay [13:03] and normalized to hate Zionist openly. I [13:07] remember seeing like people say kill [13:09] Zionist or even having like the red um [13:12] upside down triangle to mark that they [13:17] were more radical. And it was almost [13:19] like the more radical you were the more [13:22] that [13:23] >> you were a better activist because you [13:25] were truly down with the cause. But it's [13:28] just, you know, Zionism became like [13:30] another standin word for colonialism and [13:33] white supremacy. And so we just kind of [13:37] threw all of our own personal [13:40] like history and grievances at Zionists. [13:45] And so I think what also took me longer [13:47] was to realize that the word Zionist [13:50] becoming a standin for Jewish. A lot of [13:53] Jewish students on a campus had some [13:55] connection to Israel and almost all of [13:58] them fell under sus suspicion. [14:01] So you had JBP or Jewish Voice for Peace [14:05] having students prove that they're one [14:08] of the good ones by denouncing Israel [14:11] publicly. And I don't know, I just like [14:13] when I when I think of that, you don't [14:15] have that standard for any other group. [14:18] like [14:20] it it's it's it's it's unbelievable. [14:23] >> Did you ever um get to hear from Jewish [14:27] students on on campus at Stanford um [14:30] about how they felt regarding their [14:32] safety? Yeah, I after um my whole [14:36] journey, I had met uh [snorts] two of my [14:40] best friends who were Jewish and they uh [14:43] had explained to me what it was like [14:46] going through the encampment at the time [14:49] and I was taken aback because I thought [14:53] the encampment was welcoming to [14:54] everyone. Um, again, we since we always [14:57] use Zionists and not Jews, like I I was [15:00] like, how did this affect you guys, you [15:02] know? Um, and so [15:05] to hear that like they felt unsafe [15:08] walking to class to wear their Jewish [15:10] yards of David out um like necklaces, [15:14] I I just felt a sense of guilt that we [15:21] failed them. our campus filled our [15:24] Jewish students. [15:26] >> What was the moment that you started to [15:27] question um the movement that you were a [15:31] part of? [15:31] >> I started questioning the movement [15:34] um in June of 2024. [15:38] It was a pro Palestine protest that [15:42] broke into the Stanford University's [15:44] president's office. 12 students receive [15:48] felonies [15:49] um and over causing an estimated of [15:53] $700,000 in damages. And not just that, [15:58] um it was the graffiti that was spray [16:00] painted on the wall to say uh kill cops, [16:05] death to America, death to Israel, [16:09] um pigs taste best when dead. And I [16:13] remember like re seeing this [16:16] And I was [16:19] I was in shock that our that our [16:22] movement became so hateful. And I I [16:26] don't know at what point our pro [16:29] Palestine movement become an anti-Israel [16:31] anti-American movement and if it was [16:34] like that all along. And at that point I [16:37] started questioning [16:39] what did I actually join? Because even [16:41] as a BLM activist, I I never wanted to [16:44] kill cops. That was never my thing. It [16:46] was it was, you know, to stop police [16:48] brutality. Um I when I hear death to [16:52] America, I'm thinking, you know, death [16:54] to my own family as Americans. You know, [16:57] what about [16:59] the the people here that are innocent [17:01] that just happen to be here? And so why [17:04] why do we have to wish death on a [17:09] country where we're so privileged as [17:10] Americans to to protest? We they they [17:14] exercise their freedom of speech to say [17:17] some very hateful, heinous things. And I [17:20] just like couldn't get behind that. And [17:23] so at the moment I took a step back from [17:26] the movement because I didn't want to [17:28] associate with such hate. Um but you [17:34] know in that step back it allowed me to [17:35] reflect on what the movement had became. [17:38] >> And so at one point you get invited to [17:40] the um Nova exhibit in Los Angeles. Did [17:45] you tell your friends that you were [17:47] going and honestly what made you decide [17:49] to go? [17:50] >> Initially what made me decide to go? Um [17:53] so again like me taking a step back from [17:55] that uh protest [17:58] um allowed me the opportunity to receive [18:03] an invitation. Um my current best friend [18:08] now she was actually the one that sent [18:10] out the email to non-Jewish uh groups on [18:14] campus. And I remember seeing this in my [18:17] inbox and I was like what is this [18:18] Zionist propaganda doing here? and I [18:21] almost deleted the email, but I was [18:24] curious. I I heard about the Nova Music [18:27] Festival. Um I heard a lot more [18:29] propaganda than um most people and I [18:34] wanted to investigate it and I wanted [18:37] and I mainly wanted to come back and and [18:39] prove that oh yeah, this this ex [18:42] exhibition is Apac funded and and things [18:46] like that. But obviously I when I went [18:48] it it wasn't at the time I didn't [18:53] realize how much I was hiding uh because [18:57] I I didn't tell the friends in my [18:59] movement that I was like even going to [19:00] this and I didn't even tell the [19:02] organizers of the NOVA um exhibition um [19:06] that I was pro Palestine and so I was [19:11] kind of keeping secrets from both sides [19:13] at the same time. But I don't know when [19:16] you have to hide something as simple as [19:18] going to a museum and exposing yourself [19:20] to some someone's, you know, a different [19:24] opinion. I I just think that should tell [19:26] you what type of space that you're in. [19:29] Like healthy communities don't need you [19:32] to avoid information. [19:35] So, I don't think that, [19:38] you know, the pro Palestine movement [19:40] doesn't need to forbid anyone from [19:43] going, but you just have to label it as [19:44] propaganda and have the fear of being [19:48] questioned stop you from going. So, I [19:52] I'm just grateful every day that I did [19:53] go because that was the exhibit was the [19:56] first time I got to see October 7th, you [19:59] know, uh, in its footage. So now it's [20:04] been kind of a full circle moment [20:06] because I'm now an an ambassador for the [20:08] same exhibit um speaking and telling [20:12] non-Jews to go visit. [20:14] >> What was your reaction when you first [20:16] saw the exhibit and the footage from [20:18] Nova? Like I said, I I had never seen [20:21] the Nova footage before, [20:23] and I [20:26] was so shocked to see kids my age [20:30] dancing [20:31] and the next moment they're fleeing for [20:34] their lives. It was it was a tragedy [20:39] that day and it was horrific. [20:41] I completely minimized [20:45] um before going what I what I thought [20:49] had happened, but nothing could have [20:51] prepared me for the stuff that I had [20:52] seen that day. And I even like remember [20:54] one of the footage in particular um it [20:57] was a recording by um a terrorist who [21:00] had just killed a woman and took her [21:02] phone to call his dad and say that and [21:07] celebrated how he killed 15 Jews with [21:09] his own hands. [21:11] and his dad um congratulated him and his [21:16] mom told him that I wished I was there [21:17] with you. And I heard this audio and I [21:20] was just absolutely appalled because [21:23] these were the people that we were [21:25] calling resistance. [21:27] Um and and he said Jews, he didn't say [21:31] Zionists. Um and it and it and it really [21:34] clicked for me at that moment that this [21:37] was about Jews. And I know that that [21:39] sounds like silly, but truly I think a [21:42] lot of people in the pro Palestine [21:43] movement don't necessarily think that [21:45] any of the hate is towards Jews. Like we [21:48] constantly say that I'm anti-ionist, not [21:51] anti-semitic. But are you saying that [21:54] Hamas will say the same thing? Probably [21:56] not. And so, um, [22:00] I just think with the flood of footage [22:05] that I ca saw from Gaza, I never got met [22:09] with the same amount of footage about [22:10] October 7th. And so, I just think my my [22:15] the picture of what I thought this [22:16] conflict was started on October 8th. I'm [22:18] curious to hear um your take on on how [22:22] much do you think social media itself, [22:24] what it amplified versus what it uh [22:27] buried um shaped what you believed. You [22:30] mentioned never seeing that footage from [22:32] October 7th and only seeing footage from [22:34] Gaza. [22:35] >> Yeah, I mean social media absolutely [22:37] shaped all of my beliefs. Like I said, I [22:41] never seen Arnova footage before and it [22:44] wasn't an accident. I think our feeds [22:46] are built around only one side. I saw so [22:52] many images about destruction in Gaza [22:54] that of dead babies of suffering and I [22:59] never I never saw an Israeli voice or a [23:02] hostage family or what had happened on [23:04] October 7th. And so I think that social [23:07] media um in particular flags and removes [23:12] graphic footage of the massacre, but [23:15] infographics and explainers go viral. [23:19] And so it's, you know, the algorithm [23:21] doesn't really care about truth. It [23:23] wants you to keep scrolling. And what [23:25] keeps you scrolling is outrage. And so I [23:28] think that, you know, once once the [23:32] algorithm knew what I believed, it just [23:34] fed me more of it and every repost made [23:37] me more certain that I was informed. Um, [23:40] because I was consuming so much, but I [23:42] was just consuming the same story over [23:43] and over. Um, but this is what [23:46] algorithmfed type of politics have [23:48] become. Um, like for instance, one of [23:52] the things that I remember hearing about [23:54] the NOVA in particular was that why [23:56] would you have a festival near a [23:57] contested border and it was just like, [24:01] you know, the and it doesn't even [24:03] account for the reality of Israel being [24:05] the size of New Jersey, you know, and so [24:08] it's just but when you hear the same [24:10] thing over and over, it becomes truth. [24:12] It [24:13] >> it's very easy to fall into that trap. [24:15] Um, do you think the leaders of the pro [24:17] Palestinian movement, had they seen the [24:19] footage of Nova of October 7th, would it [24:23] have swayed them in any way possible or [24:25] do you think it was a prepackaged [24:27] conclusion? Um, as you so well put it [24:29] before, if they saw what I saw that many [24:33] people would start asking questions [24:36] because I think most of the students [24:37] that joined were sincere and [24:40] compassionate. [24:41] Um, and that's like, you know, why I'm [24:44] making content now because I want to [24:46] talk to people who I used to be. [24:48] Meanwhile, like leadership is more [24:53] difficult. I think that a lot of the [24:55] organizers have seen the footage. Um, [24:58] you know, for instance, the paraglider [25:02] uh photo went viral. Um, and people see [25:07] that as an act of resistance. [25:09] And I think like when your identity and [25:14] your friendships and even your career is [25:18] built on like one position, [25:20] new information just feels like an [25:24] attack. So I think just changing your [25:27] mind as [25:30] a supporter cost you your own community. [25:33] And so I don't I don't know if footage [25:35] alone can overcome that. I think that [25:39] more people need to stand up for what [25:41] they believe in more than needing more [25:44] facts. Uh I think for instance a great [25:48] example is like our SJP president. Um [25:54] he had said some pretty like damning [25:57] things about Nova Music Festival in [26:00] particular, saying that, you know, since [26:03] Israel is involved with the porn [26:05] industry and Jeffrey Epstein, maybe [26:08] Hamas was, you know, maybe Hamas thought [26:11] that the Nova Music Festival was a sex [26:13] cult because of how little they dressed. [26:15] And this was a real conversation that I [26:17] had with our former president. [26:19] >> Wow. And so I and and that's very [26:24] graphic, but I uh but he's so much [26:28] further down the rabbit hole that I [26:29] don't know what would pull someone like [26:31] that out of [26:32] >> I mean I I don't even know how to even [26:35] react to such a to such a such a theory [26:39] like that. Um but I I'm curious to hear [26:42] from you. Um, going back to the facts, [26:45] um, what was the reaction from your [26:48] movement when they realized you came [26:49] back from that exhibit and that your [26:51] opinion was starting to change? [26:53] >> When I came back, I was pretty quiet [26:57] about what had happened. I just mainly [26:59] stopped posting about Palestine and [27:02] stopped going to these rallies. Um, but [27:05] nobody like really noticed that I was [27:07] gone because I already started ste [27:09] taking a step back after like that whole [27:11] building takeover in June. So, but like [27:15] kind of looking back on it, I think that [27:19] staying silent felt safer than speaking [27:24] about like what I had seen. Um, I I [27:28] wasn't silent because I didn't like [27:29] care. I just cared about so many [27:32] different things at once. My friends, [27:34] the truth, the people that I seen in [27:36] that exhibit. And it took me a year to [27:38] be able to find my voice, you know, um, [27:41] and to reconcile what I had seen in that [27:44] exhibit because I was so confused. I I [27:48] was try trying to hold multiple truths [27:50] at once. What I learned about the NOVA [27:53] exhibit versus what new information I [27:55] was presented, it just I I [27:59] didn't know how to [28:02] reconcile those beliefs. [28:04] And so I think when I finally went [28:07] public in like November 2025, [28:11] I learned that like my fear was [28:13] justified. The people and the friends [28:15] that [28:17] I wanted to keep so badly [28:20] didn't ask about like what had happened, [28:22] would I change my mind? They instead [28:24] went after my character. And I think [28:27] that that the silence [28:30] was only delaying the inevitable. you [28:33] ended up traveling to Israel and I'm [28:35] curious to hear from you how that trip [28:39] changed your perspective and all of [28:42] these um these prisms um that you had [28:45] previously [28:47] been you know taught of um of aparthide [28:52] of white colonizers of oppressed versus [28:56] oppressor. Can you tell me a little bit [28:58] about what that experience was like for [29:00] you? when I had went to Israel, I think [29:04] that those words of like apartheid just [29:07] didn't really match what I was seeing. [29:10] Um, in my head, like when I think of [29:13] apartheid, I'm thinking um, you know, [29:15] South Africa's, you know, uh, separate [29:19] bathrooms, buses, you know, one group [29:22] that has rights, one that doesn't. But [29:25] there's mixed cities that I had went to [29:28] that had both Jewish and Arabs that um [29:32] you know Arabs make up 20% of Israelis. [29:35] And so when I met with Arab citizens [29:38] that are living and working inside of [29:41] the same spaces that Jewish Israelis [29:43] have, but it's it's it's peaceful. Um [29:47] Arab citizens can vote. They can serve [29:50] on the Knesset. They can sit on the [29:51] Supreme Court. And so I'm not saying [29:54] that there's like zero discrimination at [29:57] all. Um there absolutely is. But [30:01] inequality and apartheid are not the [30:03] same thing. And just like as a black [30:05] woman, I just know the difference. [30:07] America has real racism, but no one's [30:10] calling America an apartheid. Um because [30:13] it just waters down the word and it does [30:15] what had happened in South Africa [30:17] injustice. [30:18] So I think also I didn't understand the [30:23] context [30:25] um of what was going on in the West Bank [30:27] in particular uh because the security [30:32] reality of what had happened after the [30:34] inifadas in the early 2000s [30:38] I I realized like why they needed to [30:40] build all of those different security [30:42] checkpoints and and unfortunately it's [30:45] made it very difficult for Palestinians [30:46] to move through it. But [30:49] there was there's been numerous offers [30:51] for peace when I think that, you know, I [30:55] just think that a word described [31:00] for a racebased [31:04] um segregation doesn't really capture [31:08] all the territorial [31:10] and security concerns of the region. [31:13] Last year you spoke at a at a vigil on [31:16] campus and you said that you'd been a [31:20] year earlier been protesting the people [31:22] you were speaking to. Um what has it [31:26] been like to be embraced by a community [31:29] you once thought you were fighting? [31:31] >> It was humbling. Uh [31:34] absolutely humbling. I think, you know, [31:37] when I stood in at that visual and I [31:40] looked at [31:42] people who I had been protesting [31:47] from across the quad a couple years ago, [31:50] I had seen them as an enemy a year ago. [31:53] Um, but instead of keeping me at arms [31:56] length, they welcomed me. And nobody [31:59] demanded that I had to prove myself [32:02] first or you know believe anything in [32:06] particular. And I think that that was [32:09] the exact opposite of what I had [32:11] experienced in the movement. But you [32:14] know it it is it is complicated um [32:18] simply because like there's a part of me [32:19] that still carries guilt for what I had [32:22] believed and what I stood beside. Um, [32:25] and as someone that's just not Jewish, I [32:27] really try to be careful to not speak [32:29] for this community only alongside it. [32:33] Um, but I I think that grace is what [32:37] changes people and shame is a pipeline [32:42] towards radicalization. [32:43] I really commend you on on speaking so [32:46] eloquently and and being so brutally [32:48] honest about your experience and that [32:51] reckoning that you know what you were [32:53] taught wasn't necessarily the truth. Um [32:56] and being so open open about it. Um, so [33:00] thank you for that, Taran. And but I [33:01] want to ask you, you know, how is the [33:04] Israeli Palestinian conflict presented [33:07] in American school curricula? Um, [33:12] a and in your experience, do you think [33:15] that it's a curriculum problem or is it [33:17] something deeper? [33:19] You know, by the time that I got to [33:22] Stanford, I really had no foundation [33:25] about this Israel Palestinian conflict. [33:29] I couldn't have told you about like what [33:31] the Oslo Accords were or, you know, why [33:35] 1948 meant different things to different [33:37] people. Um, and so I think when canvas [33:42] activists had already a simple story [33:45] with very clear villains, there was [33:48] nothing to push back against. Um, [33:53] I think just whoever fills the narrative [33:56] first gets to define what this conflict [33:58] means to you. And so I think that um in [34:02] California in particular, there's been [34:05] an ongoing fight of who can fill it. Um [34:09] especially like surrounding like ethnic [34:11] studies curricula. Uh where a lot of [34:14] critics have argued that some versions [34:17] view conflict as one-sided presser [34:20] versus a press lens. But [34:24] I think that [34:26] there's some very clear stakes that we [34:28] can't keep [34:31] viewing this conflict as just two sides. [34:35] Um, and and lastly, I want to mention [34:37] too that I see a lot of pro-Israel [34:40] people blame DEI [34:44] uh for this flattening of oppressor [34:47] versus oppressed. But I just would say [34:49] that I think that DEI needs to become [34:52] inclusive of Jews. Um because like I [34:55] think that again because Jews get [34:57] recasted as this white oppressor [35:00] even though historically and to this day [35:02] that they're minorities [35:04] has not taken Jews into the fold of what [35:07] it means to be a minority. And so I [35:09] think unfortunately they they focus so [35:12] much on like you know black people and [35:14] um indigenous people but they get to but [35:17] they leave out anti-semitism and things [35:20] that are h other issues that are [35:22] happening to other communities. [35:24] >> Why do you think that is why is it that [35:26] Jews are left out of the conversation [35:27] when it comes to to minorities in [35:30] America? [35:31] >> I think it's because Jews don't fit like [35:34] neatly in a box. Um [35:37] again because [35:41] Jews were racialized at one point and [35:43] now you know any race can be Jewish. Uh [35:47] it becomes very difficult to explain [35:50] even what a Jew is. I didn't really [35:52] understand what Jewish people were. I [35:54] thought it was a religion. Um and later [35:57] in life I learned that no it's an [35:58] ethnore religion. Um, but even my my K- [36:02] through2 education growing up when it [36:04] was the Holocaust, they put on the boy [36:06] and strip pajamas movie and called it a [36:09] day. And so I think that like our [36:13] education is severely lacking in being [36:16] inclusive [36:17] um of Jews and what had happened on the [36:21] Holocaust. Um, I didn't get to I didn't [36:24] get to go to the Holocaust Museum until [36:27] I was in I was like 20s. I was in my 20s [36:30] and so I this is very unfortunate and [36:34] like no one's going out of their way to [36:35] go see a Holocaust museum and so we have [36:38] to bring them when they're in K through2 [36:41] education and unfortunately it's not a [36:43] priority beyond funding is is SJP a a [36:48] genuinely organic um studentled movement [36:52] on every campus or did you see evidence [36:55] of of national coordination and [36:57] messaging that was handed down rather [36:59] than than arrived at locally. You [37:00] mentioned that on October 8th already um [37:04] Palestinian flags were being posted all [37:06] over social media um and that there was [37:09] already calls to to end quotes the [37:11] genocide. Stanford University was the [37:14] first to hold an encampment on October [37:17] 20th and we were the longest encampment, [37:19] but RSJP [37:22] essentially created the toolkit for the [37:24] encampment to be replicated at other [37:27] encampments. And so the students are [37:29] real and the passion behind it, but I [37:32] don't think but the infrastructure [37:34] itself is local. It's a national SGP [37:38] network that provides toolkits, talking [37:40] points, and coordinating days of action. [37:44] And so, right after October 7th, a [37:47] national toolkit went out fraing the [37:49] massacre as a moment of resistance. And [37:51] you can see the same language showing up [37:54] campus after campus within days. And [37:57] that's not natural. again like when I [38:00] was inside it, it felt organic because [38:03] like the the people around me were all [38:04] my friends and like my classmates, but [38:07] when I stepped outside, I realized how [38:09] many of our spontaneous ideas were [38:12] everywhere at once, you know, and it [38:14] doesn't necessarily make the people [38:17] joining [38:18] puppets, but a lot of us were handed a [38:21] script and thought we wrote it, you [38:24] know, when we when we're in those [38:27] chants, you have one leader and you have [38:30] the followers just paring back what the [38:32] leader said. We didn't choose those [38:34] words. So I think that you know [38:38] so many people just kind of accept and [38:42] absorb rather than questioning like wait [38:44] what are we saying? What do we mean by [38:46] this? Does the per Palestine movement um [38:49] in your experience reckon with the fact [38:51] that Hamas rules over and terrorizes its [38:54] own population that it claims to speak [38:56] for the Gazins? I know that our like [39:00] Hamas had obviously been framed [39:03] as resistance and anytime that Hamas [39:07] does something wrong and it and it goes [39:09] on the national news, it's dismissed as [39:11] Israeli propaganda. So, I think that [39:16] when people came to our encampment to [39:18] ask about Hamas, it was like you were [39:21] changing the subject um and deflecting [39:24] from Israel. Um I know like there was [39:29] many times that just as pro Palestine [39:32] activists we were infantilizing Hamas um [39:35] you know saying that they had no choice [39:37] but to when they're growing up in these [39:40] type of conditions where their parents [39:43] died an Israeli bomb that they have to [39:47] resist violently but it it it leaves out [39:51] all of the Palestinians that never [39:54] never chose that path. path. They chose [39:56] peace, but instead we we flatten [40:00] Palestinians as um people that have no [40:04] agency. And so I I I I [40:09] think it's kind of a disgrace that we [40:11] kind of mow over and um ignore [40:15] Palestinians that are promoting messages [40:17] of peace. In your experience, did you [40:21] see real anti-semitism within the pro [40:24] Palestinian movement? [40:26] >> Oh, absolutely. Um, [40:29] it's just difficult because again, a lot [40:31] of the anti-semitism goes underneath the [40:33] radar. Um, we as pro Palestine activists [40:38] don't really know what modernday [40:41] anti-semitism looks like. We think of [40:43] antise-mitism as like swastikas and [40:45] Nazis marching. Um, but anti-semitism on [40:50] campus evolved, especially like you'll [40:53] see memes and jokes being used as as [40:59] tools to be anti-Semitic. Um there's for [41:03] instance like hashtag the great noticing [41:05] movement where people are saying I'm oh [41:08] I'm noticing a pattern when it's about [41:12] you know something that that had [41:15] happened in the media and it it relates [41:17] to Jews. We're seeing the same tropes [41:20] being recycled that Jews are powerful [41:22] and and controlling the media, [41:24] controlling the government, all these [41:26] different things. And so, but when we're [41:28] our age, we don't really see it as [41:30] anti-semitism because we're like, okay, [41:32] like like there's got to be someone [41:35] that's doing this. And so, they just [41:37] kind of use Jews as a scapegoat because [41:40] of their success as a as a community. [41:43] And it is pretty sad um simply because [41:47] like I think that there's so much that [41:49] people can learn from the Jewish [41:50] community of how to be successful and [41:53] thrive, but instead people weaponize [41:56] that um against Jews and say that [42:00] because they [42:02] um because they're not thriving, it's [42:05] because of someone else. And so it's [42:07] just kind of an unfortunate [42:09] um [42:11] uh [42:14] dismissal of of your own responsibility. [42:17] >> Well, let's just say that if the Jews [42:18] are controlling the media uh to sway the [42:21] public's opinion on Israel, they're not [42:23] doing a very good job on it. Uh but [42:25] Terry and Thomas, thank you very much [42:26] for coming on to to East to West today [42:28] and for sharing your personal story. Um, [42:31] and uh, we're really appreciative of [42:34] your of your voice and getting to hear [42:36] um, both sides. [42:37] >> Thank you for having me. [42:39] >> Thank you for listening to East to West. [42:40] If you enjoyed this episode, let us know [42:43] in your thoughts in the comments below. [42:45] And if there's a particular topic, [42:47] story, or voice from the region you'd [42:49] like us to explore, we'd love to hear [42:51] from you. So, please reach out and [42:53] follow us east to west on Instagram and [42:55] X so you don't miss what's coming
