Transcript [00:00] I came back to Washington and days go [00:02] by, another day goes by and once again [00:04] you're waiting on Hamas and on August [00:07] 31st, I think it was a Sunday and I was [00:09] out to lunch with my family and we're [00:12] waiting on Hamas and I'm checking in [00:15] with the countries and the Egyptians and [00:16] they're like, "Yeah, we think we're [00:17] going to get an answer soon." Okay. And [00:19] it was Bill and I stepped out on a [00:22] sidewalk and uh I literally thought I [00:25] was getting good news that we finally [00:27] got it. And Bill says, "Brett, I just [00:29] talked to Ronbar, again, the head of [00:31] Shinbet, and he said, "The Israelis just [00:33] found six hostages dead in a tunnel [00:35] under Rafa." And kind of right there, [00:37] the the you know, you could just feel [00:40] your heart drop and kind of guts rip out [00:42] of your chest. [clears throat] and um [00:45] and I had been carrying around a list of [00:48] names to this deal which included Hirs [00:53] which included Carmemell [00:55] which included Eden who you mentioned [00:57] and here's the thing as horrible as that [00:59] is the question is can we keep this [01:01] process on track or not and Bill's point [01:04] is that other than a hostage deal [01:06] there's no way to end this war but what [01:09] did Hamas do after this you know did [01:11] they send message they they can [01:13] communicate with Did they say this was a [01:16] tragic mistake or a guard panicked or [01:19] something? No. They released videos of [01:23] the dead and the videos came out like [01:25] when the funerals were going on. [01:37] [music] [01:44] I'm Deborah Parardes, the host of Ark [01:46] News Daily. What's happening in Israel [01:48] and the Jewish world right now matters, [01:51] but it can be hard to keep up, let alone [01:53] make sense of it all. And that's why we [01:55] started Ark News [music] Daily. Every [01:58] weekday morning, I walk you through the [02:00] most important news, give you the [02:02] context you need, and let you know what [02:04] to look out for next. I don't try to [02:06] convince you of anything and I don't [02:08] want to waste your time. So, on most [02:10] days, I'll be in your ears for about 10 [02:12] minutes or less. Then you can move on [02:14] with your day, hopefully feeling a [02:16] little smarter than before. Subscribe [02:19] wherever you get your podcasts or follow [02:22] the link in the show notes. I hope to [02:24] see you tomorrow. [02:28] >> Brett Mcgherk, welcome back to the [02:30] podcast. [02:31] >> Dan, it's great to be here. I've been [02:33] looking forward to this conversation and [02:34] thanks so much for having me. [02:36] >> Uh I've been looking forward to it as [02:37] well. So we are going to jump right into [02:39] it. I I devoured your book Brink. Um as [02:43] I as I told you uh as I was reading it [02:46] over the summer, there are going to be a [02:47] lot of books about the time in which you [02:50] served in government. I think yours will [02:52] emerge as one of the most important [02:53] ones. I take it it's not the final uh [02:56] chronicling of history, but it is [02:58] certainly a first draft, and it's by [03:00] someone who was in the thick of it all. [03:02] So, I want to just get into it. You open [03:04] the book with President Biden giving you [03:07] essentially two weeks to get a hostage [03:09] deal before he leaves office. All right? [03:12] So, here we are. It's late 2024, early [03:15] 2025, and he wants a deal, but we're [03:18] going to get to that, but I want you to [03:19] first take us back to October 7th, 2023. [03:24] And what was your initial understanding [03:26] of the hostage situation during the [03:29] first few days of October 7th? [03:31] >> Yeah, Dan, to tell the story of October [03:33] 7th, I you got to start I think on [03:34] October 6 cuz I I' I had the Saudis in [03:37] my office on October 6 was a Friday. Um [03:41] because we had been working on the on [03:42] the Saudi deal and I shook hands with [03:44] Princess Reema who's their ambassador [03:46] here on kind of a time frame for closing [03:49] out that that deal. And the book talks [03:51] about that package and included you know [03:55] the Palestinians were like a part of [03:56] that overall package. the Palestinian [03:58] Authority was working with us and Tony [04:02] was about to go to the region and that [04:03] was on October 6 on a Friday and [04:07] I came home, you know, that Friday night [04:09] and uh I put the kid to bed and I was [04:12] doing some work and it was about [04:13] midnight. Um [04:16] when I heard from we could first got to [04:18] get reports from the situation room [04:19] about rockets coming from Gaza. [04:20] Unfortunately, that's not wasn't totally [04:22] unusual. [04:23] Uh, and then I got messages from Mike [04:26] Herzog, who was the ambassador here, who [04:27] of course is one of my key uh key [04:30] contacts, talked to Mike, [04:31] >> the Israeli ambassador to Washington, [04:32] >> Israeli ambassador to Washington. Uh, [04:34] and then we started getting reports of [04:36] uh incursions across the border. And [04:39] then I I got a message from uh Herzog [04:41] saying we're at war. [04:43] And you know, we I was up all night. My [04:46] Israel adviser was on her way to I think [04:49] New York. Uh I asked her to come back. [04:52] Jake Sullivan is in Italy just trying to [04:56] figure out what's going on. I got to the [04:57] White House very early that morning to [04:59] get I'm calling all my Israeli contacts [05:02] trying to get as much intelligence [05:04] information as we can plus what's in [05:05] open sources. [05:07] And I [snorts] I describe it as coming [05:09] together in in jagged in jagged pieces. [05:12] And [05:14] different Israeli officials are saying [05:16] different things. There's a lot of [05:17] denial that you know we we're going to [05:19] get we got this under control. [05:22] others deeply concerned that this could [05:24] be the first uh shot in a broader [05:27] campaign against Israel. Uh and as the [05:30] overall scope of the incursion became [05:32] clear that that became a consensus on [05:35] the Israeli side. This this must not be [05:37] just a one-off. I got to the Oval Office [05:40] I think around noon or so and you know I [05:44] describe in the book Dan briefing [05:46] presidents in the Oval Office and I [05:48] started doing it when the Bush [05:49] administration and I asked Josh Bolton [05:51] who was the chief of staff then you how [05:53] do you what's your advice for this you [05:55] know what do you prepare particularly a [05:57] crisis [05:59] and his advice which stuck with me was [06:01] tell the president the truth in five [06:03] minutes every morning and [06:06] I remember walking in the Oval Office [06:08] And uh John Feiner was there. Tony Tony [06:10] was there. [06:11] >> So you're talking about I just want to [06:12] establish the characters. So Tony [06:14] Blinkin, Secretary of State. John Feiner [06:15] is the deputy national security adviser. [06:17] I'm sure we'll hear about Jake Sullivan [06:19] who's the national security adviser. All [06:20] these characters loom large in your [06:22] book. [06:23] >> Yes. I just remember Biden looked very [06:25] pale and just like it was a Saturday [06:28] and I did not know at the time he was [06:31] actually preparing that Saturday for to [06:34] sit down with Rob her and a prosecutor [06:36] on the this issue of classified [06:38] documents and the president's garage. I [06:40] didn't know that at the time. You never [06:41] actually know what a president's dealing [06:43] with. Um so you know Biden asked me what [06:46] what do you make of this? I said [06:47] honestly this this is unprecedented but [06:49] we don't we still don't know the the [06:51] scale of it. And we didn't we didn't uh [06:54] we didn't learn about the NOVA festival [06:56] where uh so many atrocities and hostages [07:01] were taken until I think a few days [07:02] afterwards. [07:04] Uh but the president got on the phone [07:05] with uh with Netanyahu and I have this [07:08] in the book. Um, and I just I I remember [07:11] Netanyahu at first being very defiant, [07:13] but then saying, uh, you know, Joe, I'm [07:17] in the Middle East and in the Middle [07:20] East, if you're perceived as weak, [07:22] you're roadkill. And, uh, very concerned [07:25] early on, Dan, I was close on this, on [07:29] uh, what was coming from Gaza, but also [07:32] Hezbollah in the north, and are they [07:33] about to come from the north? I mean [07:34] that was very present very early uh even [07:37] on October 7th. Then how do we try to [07:40] deter that and contain whatever is [07:42] happening to to Gaza? And how close from [07:45] your perspective did the region actually [07:47] come to an all-out war in those first [07:50] days? I know obviously we'll get to [07:52] this. There were there were later uh [07:54] expansions of the war as it relates to [07:56] to direct uh confrontations between is [07:59] Iran and Israel. But in those early [08:01] days, what were you guys prioritizing? [08:04] What were you processing first? Wait, [08:05] how many hostages and there are [08:07] Americans being held hostage? Was that [08:08] the focus or was the focus guys were [08:11] were a few clicks away from like a 1973 [08:14] like regional war or like what was the [08:17] >> what was the focus? [08:18] >> Yeah. So all things at once or all of [08:20] the above? [08:20] >> Yeah. How many Americans are dead? How [08:23] many are missing? And that number grew. [08:26] 4 6 10 up to 17. So trying to figure [08:30] that out. [08:32] And I just remember scouring all the [08:34] information about, [08:36] you know, what is Iran doing? Do did [08:38] they know about this? What are they [08:39] preparing? [08:41] And [08:44] when you looked at the situation, [08:47] and I think Americans who haven't been [08:49] out there don't realize how small [08:50] everything is. I mean, Israel is such a [08:52] small country and you had 30,000 [08:53] Hzbollah troops on the northern border. [08:56] And if they cross the border, as Hamas [08:59] just did, uh I mean, the situation was [09:03] was quite grim. [09:05] And that's one reason Biden very early [09:07] on, I mean his his early statements [09:10] uh or that we got Israel's back. [09:13] We announced deploying an aircraft [09:15] carrier to the eastern Mediterranean. [09:16] That was all about deterring Hezbollah. [09:18] I can't say had we not done that that [09:20] they might have crossed the border. But [09:21] I will say, Dan, in my conclusion and [09:23] seeing everything we could possibly see, [09:26] I don't think Sinoir informed the [09:27] Iranians. I think we know that now [09:29] because he kept this so [09:30] compartmentalized. [09:32] Uh but he did expect that once it [09:34] started that uh the Iranians and the [09:36] others would come in and we could see [09:38] the Iranians calculating [09:41] in some way as surprised as we were but [09:44] then very quickly calculating [09:47] how do we take advantage of this and it [09:49] was on October 8th that Hezbollah [09:51] started firing into the north. So, and [09:54] very shortly thereafter, we can get to [09:56] it on October 11th, we did come to the [09:58] brink of a regional war. And at multiple [10:00] points throughout the crisis, that [10:01] happened. So, it was really kind of [10:03] right away. And I I can't say I think [10:05] those early moves we made [10:08] were very they were intended to deter [10:11] and uh I think there was very very [10:14] important that we did that. [10:15] >> Okay. So, the I want to get to the [10:18] hostage negotiations. It's some of the [10:20] most interesting and at times [10:22] devastating [10:24] parts of the book. The first hostage [10:26] negotiations [10:28] seem almost primitive compared to what [10:30] came later. Proving Hamas could actually [10:33] locate and deliver hostages, determining [10:35] who controlled whom inside Gaza, who was [10:38] actually in charge, negotiating [10:39] temporary pauses in Israeli war [10:42] fighting, Israeli surveillance. When did [10:44] you first conclude that Qatar could [10:48] actually serve as an effective channel [10:50] to Hamas? [10:52] >> Yes. A couple days into the crisis, uh, [10:54] Biden has a video call with all the [10:56] families of American uh, missing. He had [10:58] scheduled half hour. This meeting went [11:00] on for, I think, almost 90 minutes. I [11:02] describe it in the book. I've done [11:04] hostage deals before, Dan. And I you got [11:06] to know the families and but this was [11:08] just [11:10] you know some mothers just whailing into [11:13] the screen. You they're on a screen in [11:15] front of us you know do something. And [11:17] in fact in the middle of it one uh [11:20] uh one woman left the screen and when [11:22] she came back she learned that her uh [11:25] loved one had was found dead and just [11:28] started wailing. [11:31] And uh you know Biden was called that [11:33] time's up. You got to go to your next [11:34] engagement. He shut that down. We stayed [11:35] on in this in this incredibly uh [11:39] horrific emotional meeting. And it was [11:42] after that that that uh we were actually [11:44] about to go to Israel for that first [11:46] trip and Biden said to me, you know, [11:49] damn it, do everything you possibly can [11:50] to get these people home. So I started [11:53] working very early then [snorts] [11:56] uh together with Bill Burns on, you [11:58] know, what's possible here. And [12:00] >> Bill Burns, director of the CIA, [12:02] >> Burns, director of the CIA. [12:03] >> Yeah. The cutteries were actually coming [12:05] to us with information on Americans [12:08] missing and we start we open a back [12:11] channel with cutter on [12:14] who's alive who's dead trying to figure [12:15] out figure it out. Um it was after the [12:19] trip to Israel. [12:21] Uh, I actually called Shake Muhammad [12:23] who's the prime minister of Qatar just [12:26] before we left Israel [12:28] about to check in and um I called one of [12:31] his aids and told me to call Shik Muham [12:33] shake Muhammad and [clears throat] it [12:34] was right right when we were lifting off [12:36] from Israel Dan that we we heard from [12:40] the Qatar side that we might they were [12:43] working on getting these two Americans [12:45] out uh mother and daughter. there were [12:47] the two Americans who were not dual [12:49] citizens [12:50] and that we could you to as a proof of [12:54] concept we could get two hostages out. [12:58] Uh we did that successfully within a [13:00] couple days and then we started to move [13:02] very quickly on a a deal for all women [13:06] and children. And our our thinking and [13:09] we were aligned with the Israelis on [13:10] this um was you know Hamas had taken [13:15] oxygenarian grandmothers, babies [13:19] uh Abigail Don the toddler which is you [13:22] know I tell the story in the book so [13:24] release the women and children [13:27] and [13:30] it became a very difficult negotiation. [13:32] the idea that Hamas just was ready to [13:34] release all the hostages, uh, it's [13:36] complete So, I tell the story [13:38] of just the women and children deal [13:42] and how hard that was to get. Just to [13:44] stay on this for a moment, there's there [13:46] have been reporting recently that in the [13:48] days after October 7th, Hamas signaled [13:51] that they were prepared to just release [13:53] all the hostages. And you're saying that [13:55] was is not [13:56] >> Hamas was sending signals we're ready to [13:58] have a discussion but their their core [14:00] demand you asked for their core their [14:01] core demand from the beginning after [14:03] they've killed 1,200 people and have [14:05] invaded Israel 3,000 [14:08] terrorists and everything taken 250 [14:11] people the worst mass hostage crisis in [14:13] modern history. Their core demand from [14:15] the beginning was, [14:17] "Yeah, you can have the hostages uh in [14:19] exchange for all Palestinian prisoners [14:20] and we stay in power, right? Permanent [14:22] ceasefire, October 6 status quo." Their [14:25] core demand was, "We stay in power. We [14:27] will reconstitute on Israel's borders." [14:31] And no, no Israeli government was ever [14:34] going to accept that. But that was their [14:36] core demand throughout. And you had [14:37] these kind of irreconcilable because [14:39] Israel's Israel's position was at the [14:41] end of this Hamas could not be in power [14:42] in Gaza. So you had a completely [14:44] irreconcilable positioning and a lot of [14:47] the book is about how we bridge that and [14:49] try to try to find a formula. But this [14:51] first phase was all women and children [14:54] and what Hamas did [14:57] was what they would do is they'd say [14:59] sure and then we would say well then who [15:01] who are the hostages that will come out [15:02] in this deal because I have a deal [15:03] hostage deal. Who are the hostages? And [15:06] then this is what um Hamas was very good [15:09] at doing. They would kind of onesie and [15:11] twoozy it. So they would say, "Oh, we [15:12] have we we can identify 10." [15:15] And the Israelis knew there were at [15:17] least almost 70 uh women and children. [15:20] And I [snorts] have a scene in the book, [15:21] Dan, where I go to Israel. [15:24] And I'm in the Kira, the Israeli Defense [15:26] Ministry, the defense headquarters. [15:28] Yeah. [15:28] >> Yes. In Tel Aviv. And I'm there for the [15:30] hostage deal. There's a lot going on. [15:32] I'm there for this. Okay. I'm on my way [15:34] to Doha and I'm going to go to Cairo. [15:37] And we have an offer on the table from [15:40] Hamas for 20 guaranteed can come out. [15:44] And what Hamas would say is these are [15:46] the 20 we can identify. We need the [15:49] ceasefire to identify the rest. Okay. [15:52] And the Isra the Israelis thought that [15:56] was BS because we we knew and we know [15:59] from talking to hostages now. Uh, Hamas [16:02] took very careful records of who the [16:04] hostages are and had pretty good [16:06] accounting. So, if you went into a deal [16:08] for all the women and children with a [16:09] guarantee of only 20, you're likely to [16:12] come out of that without getting all the [16:14] hostages out after this meeting at the [16:16] Defense Ministry, uh, the equivalent of [16:19] the Pentagon for Israel. You know, it's [16:22] a big meeting and all these people and [16:23] there's all this stuff being discussed [16:25] and the the the hostage talks are so [16:26] sensitive and I'm pretty frustrated [16:29] because I'm there to talk about this and [16:32] Netanyahu kind of pulls me aside after [16:33] that after that meeting and we we have a [16:36] a little tetat by the door and he he [16:38] tugs at my sleeve and he's like, "Brett, [16:41] I need this deal. Help me get it." [16:45] And I said, 'You know, that's why I'm [16:46] here and we have 20. We have an offer of [16:48] 20 birds in hand. I said, 'What if we [16:52] can get 30? The Egyptians and countries [16:54] are saying we can maybe get 30. And [16:56] Netanyahu said, "No, no, no, no, no. [16:58] Like, demand 50. I think they'll cave. [17:00] Get demand 50 and I'm willing to go to [17:03] go ahead." Um, and we eventually got [17:07] that. Okay, we got 50. And this just [17:09] shows the way Hamas dealt with these [17:11] negotiations. They wanted to hold on to [17:13] as many hostages as they could while [17:16] also getting into ceasefires. So, we [17:19] eventually got the guarantee of 50 and [17:21] we went into that. We went into that [17:23] deal [17:25] uh in late November and um we finally [17:28] got the ceasefire. Hostages start coming [17:30] out [17:32] and in a very dramatic way, night by [17:34] night, Hamas will release a list of [17:36] names and who's on the list, who's not. [17:39] Uh, and I just I describe this kind of [17:41] torturous process and you know waiting [17:43] is Abigail going to be on the list? Is [17:45] she alive or not? And they start [17:47] releasing that the the foreign workers, [17:49] the Thai workers and others. Um so by [17:53] day 8 about 100 hostages have come out [17:55] and in a meeting on day four or five or [17:58] so a phone call uh we had with President [18:01] Biden and Bill Burns is on the line CIA [18:03] director and and Bill pointed out [18:06] the concern the Hamas was not releasing [18:09] the younger women. [18:12] uh only one younger woman had been [18:14] released and she was like just [18:15] grievously wounded [18:17] and there was a concern that at the end [18:19] they were going to try to hold on to [18:20] them. [18:23] So [18:25] on day eight and I I this is a key [18:28] moment in the in this crisis. Um yeah, [18:31] we're in a ceasefire. Guns are silent. [18:33] 100 hostages have come out. [18:37] The remaining women on the list are the [18:39] younger women. Uh there are some [18:41] soldiers, but there are most were taken [18:44] from NOVA or from their homes. And I was [18:47] home at this point in Washington. It was [18:49] about midnight and um we're waiting [18:52] for a list from Hamas. And the Israelis [18:54] were telling us even if they produce one [18:58] one [18:59] uh we'll keep the ceasefire going. And [19:01] we get a me a cryptic message from Hamas [19:06] saying, you know, we can't really find [19:07] the younger girls. And so, uh, let's [19:11] skip to the older men. Keep the [19:13] ceasefire. Skip to the older men. [19:15] [snorts] And if you read the book, Dan, [19:17] you know, you're you're you live through [19:18] this moment. It's like a moral quandry. [19:21] What do you do? Do you keep the [19:22] ceasefire, skip to the older men? [19:24] >> Is the goal to get as many hostages back [19:26] as possible, no matter who they are, [19:27] >> or do you hold Hamas accountable and [19:30] say, "No, you're not fulfilling this [19:31] deal unless you get these women out." [19:34] >> Right. The deal's for all women and [19:35] children. And but the older men are in [19:38] rough shape, too. And keep in mind you [19:40] I'm sure you're thinking at this point [19:42] you you do have a sense by at this point [19:44] what the women have gone through [19:45] >> exactly [19:47] >> and so you're thinking my god we know [19:49] from the images on October 7th what [19:50] these women went through and we can only [19:52] imagine what these women are going [19:53] through while they're in the longer [19:54] they're in captivity. [19:56] >> Yes. [19:58] So I anyone who cares about the whatever [20:00] side you're on in this most polarizing [20:03] crisis it's like a key moment because we [20:05] have a ceasefire. it can continue if [20:07] Hamas will just release these younger [20:09] women and they don't. And the question [20:12] is, do you skip to the older men? And [20:14] the decision from the Israeli side was [20:16] unanimous. No, we cannot. If we skip [20:18] over the women, it it's basically we're [20:20] signing their death sentence. We'll [20:22] never get them out. And the war started [20:25] again that night. And uh and I don't [20:29] want to fast forward, but uh Romy, Don, [20:31] and Emily are three women who came out [20:32] the day before the inauguration. Uh, one [20:35] taken from Nova, two from Kafarza, the [20:37] Kabutz where the seagulls were and where [20:39] Abigail and her parents were killed. Uh, [20:42] but they should have come out in [20:43] November. And why do you think Hamas did [20:45] not want to release these women? [20:47] >> Yeah, I think they saw them as their [20:49] most uh valuable [20:52] uh hostages clearly for all the worst [20:55] reasons because they knew we in the West [20:58] would be horrified about the the longer [20:59] they're there. Yeah. But do you also [21:01] think there was concern that in [21:03] releasing these women, these women would [21:04] have stories to tell that could invite [21:07] >> we actually talked about that time. Yes, [21:09] that was yes, the testimonies would be [21:11] told to the world and as they have now. [21:15] Um but in any case, the the point is we [21:17] had a deal for all women and children [21:19] unequivocal. And Israel's releasing uh [21:22] you call it the the keys and the [21:24] nomenclature of these negotiations. The [21:25] keys are the ratio for Palestinian [21:27] prisoners to the hostages. They're [21:29] releasing I think about 10 uh prisoners [21:31] for each hostage and Hamas broke the [21:34] deal. And I did not think at that moment [21:37] it would take you know 14 months or so [21:39] to get back to a deal. I didn't cuz I [21:41] thought we succeeded here. We we can get [21:44] back to the table pretty quickly. But [21:45] that was a just a key. It's important to [21:48] I think pause on that November deal and [21:49] why it fell apart. Um and then we get [21:53] into what happened after. Do you think [21:55] it was a mistake by the Israelis to not [21:58] just go for numbers at that point? [22:00] >> No, I I think there's a very good chance [22:02] we never got would have gotten the the [22:04] women out. [22:04] >> Wow. [22:05] >> And Hamas played with this issue. Um [22:09] cuz we can get in the you know the the [22:12] guts of the talks, but they played with [22:14] Israel had a key demand in every offer. [22:17] Women come out first [22:19] and Hamas would always soften that. You [22:21] know, we'll make a good faith effort and [22:23] things. I mean, I I think Hamas [22:26] believed, particularly Yahasinir, [22:29] that this war would end with with with [22:31] Hamas holding a number of hostages, [22:35] >> meaning indefinitely, [22:36] >> uh or for years. [22:38] >> Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I I [22:40] tell the October 7th story through the [22:42] eyes of of the White House and what [22:44] we're seeing and also through [22:46] uh [22:48] you know, the seagulls, Keith and Aviva [22:50] Seagull, both taken hostage and the [22:53] seagulls in their home uh they had a [22:56] bumper sticker [22:58] that said Galad is alive from the from [23:00] the period in which Galad Shalit is [23:03] being held. Israeli soldier taken in [23:06] 2006 and held for 5 years, right? And [23:10] there was a big debate in Israel about [23:12] uh getting him out. And eventually he [23:15] was freed in 2011 in in an exchange for [23:18] 1,000 Palestinian prisoners uh mostly [23:21] Hamas operatives including Yaha Sinoir. [23:25] And [23:26] it gets to the just the perverse nature [23:32] and the moral quandies of a hostage [23:33] negotiation cuz a hostage taker always [23:37] puts a price on the table. And like I [23:40] dealt with this with Iran in hostage [23:42] negotiations. Same tactic. There's [23:44] always a price on the table. And the [23:47] question is what can a state [23:50] who's responsible for the safety of all [23:52] of its citizens and also redeeming the [23:54] you know re releasing the hostages what [23:57] can a state accept and where do you draw [23:59] that line and I I cite my monities in an [24:02] epigraph um [24:05] you know there's no higher mitzvah than [24:06] the redemption of captives because of [24:08] what captives might be going through and [24:11] and it's true it's like an absolute [24:12] commandment but he also has kind of a [24:15] utilitarian [24:16] formula that the price can't be so high [24:18] that you you encourage further hostage [24:20] taking or put society at risk. And this [24:23] is the this kind of sliding scale [24:26] that there's no right answer for and [24:28] that tears it tears your soul apart if [24:31] you're working on it. It tears society [24:32] apart. It tears governments in two [24:35] because just meet their price, you know. [24:38] But meeting the price [24:41] uh the consequences can you can actually [24:44] set conditions for an even worse [24:45] situation. But that that that is the [24:48] nature of a hostage negotiation. This [24:50] one of course is is also encompasses a [24:56] a war and and a regional crisis and [24:58] everything else. But that that was [24:59] Hamas's calculation. I think like Galad, [25:01] they intended to keep hostages for [25:03] years. I have I have no doubt about [25:04] that. And but there's this recurring [25:06] disagreement in the book between you and [25:07] and Prime Minister Netanyahu that keeps [25:09] coming up different parts of the book [25:11] and and and and what you capture is that [25:13] Washington [25:14] frequently and it alludes to something [25:16] you just said earlier. Washington [25:17] frequently wanted Israel to put an offer [25:18] on the table and force Hamas to respond. [25:21] And Netanyahu would argue that Hamas, if [25:24] that was what Israel kept doing, Hamas [25:26] would simply pocket every Israeli [25:28] concession in any offer and then ask for [25:31] more. And it was a fool's errand. [25:33] Looking back, Brett, who who understood [25:36] Hamas's negotiating strategy better? [25:38] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, our approach was get a [25:42] deal that went as far as you could in [25:45] the direction of Hamas that then Israel [25:46] endorses [25:48] and then put the onus on Sinoir [25:51] to say yes. [25:54] And [25:55] we did that a number of times. uh [26:00] Netanyahu [clears throat] [26:01] and I obviously saw him a number of [26:03] times and and the Israeli government has [26:08] you know two goals. Defeat Hamas as a [26:10] military and governing power in in Gaza. [26:13] They'll never again rule Gaza and [26:14] release the hostages. Okay. So and and [26:17] that plays out in my conversations with [26:19] Netanyahu. [26:20] Um but Netanyahu would say [26:24] you're doing this backwards. like [26:27] get them to say yes and then come to me, [26:29] you know. But what Hamas would say yes [26:31] to was we stay in power. You go back to, [26:34] you know, permanent ceasefire, [26:36] guaranteed ceasefire, uh, October 6 [26:38] status quo, which Israel is not going to [26:41] accept. And I honestly, you're asking a [26:45] good question about how do you a kind of [26:47] a chicken or egg. [26:50] Uh and eventually to get the deal it was [26:52] we had Israel signed up and we and and [26:54] once once Yahassin was dead uh and the [26:58] whole regional balance of power changed [27:00] um Hamas said yes. But yeah this was the [27:03] tension and and those conversations with [27:05] me and Netanyahu and what Biden [27:06] Netanyahu and others are reflected in [27:09] the book. I've really tried Dan in this [27:11] book and I know you've read a lot of [27:13] kind of books from former officials and [27:15] as have I. I've just I tried to just and [27:17] there was no other way to write it. I [27:19] just poured it down like this is what it [27:22] this is what happened in the room. Not [27:24] the all the rooms in with Netanyahu with [27:27] a situation room with intelligence [27:30] chiefs and with Hamas downstairs on one [27:32] floor, Israelis on another uh [27:35] and the immediiacy of the moment and [27:37] there's never like a right answer, you [27:39] know, I it's just so exceedingly [27:43] difficult. So, I want to go to the [27:45] spring of 2024, [27:47] which as I remember it, but certainly as [27:50] I'm reading your book, it I was [27:53] reminded, it sort of um crystallized for [27:55] me what a turning point spring of 2024 [27:58] was because Biden at that point was [28:01] becoming much more publicly critical of [28:04] Israel. There was enormous pressure on [28:07] Israel over Rafa. All eyes are on Rafa. [28:11] the humanitarian conditions in Gaza and [28:14] the administration did pause the [28:16] delivery of certain weapons. And the New [28:19] York Times reported from the book that [28:22] President Biden from your book uh a [28:25] recent piece like last couple days [28:27] reported that President Biden was close [28:28] to a fundamental break with Netanyahu in [28:31] April of 2024. [28:33] So [28:35] I guess critics will ask if he was [28:38] really at that point, why didn't he do [28:40] so? [28:41] >> Yeah. So April 4th, 2024, uh kind of all [28:46] these conflicting [28:48] objectives, emotions come into the into [28:50] the Oval Office. And remember, after the [28:53] November deal falls apart, just a a [28:55] quick uh to bring you up to April 4th, [28:58] when I thought we'd get a deal back on [28:59] the table soon, [29:01] uh we come under we come under attack in [29:03] the region. Uh just increasing attacks [29:07] from uh in Iraq, and Syria and the Red [29:10] Sea. Uh we have an awful casualty on [29:13] Christmas Day. Biden dispatches me to [29:16] see the Iranians in a in Oman um to try [29:20] to get a handle on this. Uh I described [29:22] those talks in detail and then we have [29:24] three Americans dead the end of January [29:26] and and Biden orders [29:28] significant air strikes including uh [29:30] directly against an Iranian intell [29:32] Iranian officer uh in Baghdad and I go [29:35] through that history and after all that [29:39] we get back to the hostage talks and uh [29:41] we just couldn't get any any traction [29:43] because [29:46] Hamas would sit on offers and and were [29:48] just rejecting uh any kind of [29:52] compromised formula. [29:55] So by April, [29:58] the talks have basically collapsed [30:01] and Biden is now in he's running for [30:04] reelection and [30:07] it's hard to even articulate how we're [30:09] going to manage what is our plan to kind [30:12] of end the Gaza war, get hostage out. [30:14] He's taken criticism from the right that [30:16] we're not being supportive enough of [30:18] Israel and tough enough on Hamas. He's [30:19] taken massive criticism from the left [30:22] that we're not somehow, you know, [30:24] restraining Israel. [30:26] And on April 1st, 3 days before this [30:28] call, uh we're having a meeting in the [30:31] situation room with the Israelis on Rafa [30:34] on the on the kind of humanitarian plan [30:36] for Rafa. And uh Gai Zilberman, who was [30:40] the military attaches to the Israeli [30:43] embassy, pulls me aside [30:45] before the meeting and says, "Uh Brett, [30:47] I got to tell you something. Um, we're [30:49] going to do an air strike uh in Damascus [30:51] against Muhammad Raza Zahedi who was the [30:55] Kuds force commander who we've known for [30:57] years who kind of enables Hezbollah and [31:00] everything. And honestly, my initial [31:03] reaction given that Hezbollah was firing [31:05] into Israel every every day was that's a [31:08] that's a totally legitimate operation. [31:11] [snorts] He said there's one more thing. [31:13] Uh the is the the Iranians might say [31:16] that the building he's in is a part of [31:18] their their uh embassy in Damascus, but [31:20] it's not. I would be a problem. I got to [31:24] say, Dan, we've never seen anything to [31:26] support that it is part of an embassy. [31:27] But any event, the Israelis did that [31:29] strike, they take out Zahedi. [31:33] Uh on the same day, there was the World [31:35] Central Kitchen uh drone strike in Gaza, [31:37] which killed uh seven, eight workers. [31:41] uh which was an awful tragic event and [31:44] which was uh so self-defeating also for [31:47] the Israelis because they were working [31:48] with World Central Kitchen uh far more [31:50] effectively than with the UN. So all of [31:52] this is kind of coming together in a [31:54] very negative way and after the Zahetti [31:56] strike and I'll get to the phone call [31:58] and and your question. Uh we start to [32:01] see intelligence Dan that Iran is [32:03] preparing [32:05] like a hard to believe missile ballistic [32:09] missile drone cruise missile direct [32:11] attack on Israel. [snorts] And just to [32:14] put this in context like totally [32:16] unprecedented and like massive. So, you [32:19] know, we're seized with that. Uh because [32:21] if that attack succeeds and we have just [32:25] by looking at it, you could have [32:26] hundreds of uh casualties in Israel, [32:28] you're in a major regional war. So, this [32:30] all comes into head in this call, Dan, [32:32] in the in the oval on the fourth. And [32:34] the president uh Biden, I described in [32:37] the book, is extremely just frustrated [32:38] with the whole situation. [32:42] And and that's when he says to um to [32:45] Netanyahu like, you know, I cut you off [32:47] if like we got, you know, um and that's [32:50] what's gotten a lot of attention in kind [32:51] of the excerpts and things, but let me [32:54] put this let me answer your question cuz [32:55] I I did not think we should do that. Uh [32:59] and the the key part of that call and [33:02] what happened afterwards was the [33:04] president said, "Look, here's what we're [33:05] going to do. we're going to help defend [33:06] you and I'm going to send military [33:08] forces to help defend Israel and then [33:10] we're going to get back to the hostage [33:11] deal. And that's what we did. And then [33:13] we by the end of May we have a hostage [33:15] deal on the table that Israel has signed [33:17] on to. So we kind of in my view we use [33:19] that moment very effectively with [33:22] very direct private [33:25] uh conversations to say the least. uh [33:28] defending Israel in an unprecedented way [33:30] against this unprecedented missile [33:32] attack and then getting back to a [33:35] process to try to get the hostages out. [33:38] Now, many analysts of this from, I [33:41] think, the left side of the equation [33:42] say, "No, no, Biden should have just cut [33:44] Israel off at that point." Well, [33:46] that would not have ended the war. It [33:48] would not have gotten any hostages home. [33:50] And so I I don't that argument this is [33:52] always the argument from just cut off [33:54] Israel and somehow [33:56] the war will stop the hostages come out [33:59] reduce human suffering and it doesn't [34:01] add up. Well, can you spend a minute on [34:04] that because you you this this criticism [34:07] including from members of President [34:09] Biden's own administration, your former [34:10] colleagues have made this point. So what [34:13] what do they get wrong? Cuz you're [34:15] asserting that that it wouldn't have [34:17] worked. But but why not? Well, it's also [34:20] a bit of a rewriting history of that [34:21] period because I mean Congress at the [34:23] time voted there was a vote in April on [34:25] April 20th for $26 billion aid package [34:28] for Israel which was overwhelmingly [34:30] bipartisan uh was 366 to 58 in the [34:34] house. So the idea that there was some [34:36] consensus at this moment in this time [34:38] frame uh is just completely false. when [34:42] we did take very public measures against [34:44] Israel in the period just before this [34:47] call uh we abstained from a UN security [34:50] council resolution for basically an [34:51] unconditional ceasefire over Ramadan [34:53] which did not tie a ceasefire to the [34:55] hostages now that did not produce a [34:57] ceasefire uh it played back extremely [35:00] negatively in the hostage talks and the [35:02] Hamas leaders like Haneia went to Tyrron [35:05] and like praised it and basically [35:06] doubled down on their demands I mean [35:07] that's a very tangible example of [35:11] performative ative diplomacy producing [35:14] no outcome whatsoever. In fact, [35:15] producing negative uh outcomes. Uh the [35:19] debate over Rafa [35:21] very public torture debate. [35:24] Now we had concerns over Rafa and how [35:27] the Israelis would handle it which we [35:28] were discussing with them privately [35:32] uh and extensively. [35:35] But the Israelis were trying to set up a [35:36] choice for sinir. I'm actually have a I [35:38] have a part of the book where I am [35:40] sitting there with a boss Kmel the [35:41] Egyptian intel chief and Ronan Barber [35:42] where Ronan tries to really put this on [35:44] the table. Ronin is the head of the [35:46] Shinbet. So he's part of the Israeli [35:47] team. Yeah. [35:48] >> And he's like he really wants a deal. Uh [35:51] the only way to stop this operation is [35:53] release hostages and start with the [35:55] women who should have come out in [35:56] November. Uh they're trying to set up [35:59] this binary choice. The public kind of [36:02] torture debate over Rafa which I think [36:05] had no effect on the Israeli operations. [36:07] I think our our private consultations [36:08] with them, we sent military experts out [36:10] did have an effect on how that operation [36:12] went. Um, played back very negatively on [36:15] the on the talks. So, just one more data [36:18] point, of course, as you know, and I [36:19] think your listeners know, I mean, the [36:20] Israelis have one of the largest arms [36:22] industries in the world. So, the idea [36:23] that had we made draconian cuts in [36:26] military assistance would have stopped [36:27] the war is just not it's just not well [36:30] founded. And of course after this call [36:33] uh we did selectively curtail certain [36:36] munitions, the heavy payload munitions [36:39] and a number of systems that could have [36:41] been used in the West Bank. So you know [36:42] we did selectively use um that tool. But [36:46] to the point of here's the thing, how do [36:48] you end this war? You can't just say end [36:51] the war. How do you get hostages home? [36:53] You can't just say get hostages home. [36:56] And there's like a Washington [36:58] conversation [37:01] and a political conversation and then [37:03] there's like where it really counts [37:06] trying to get this done. [37:08] And what I've tried to do is reflect [37:09] both of that because it all kind of [37:10] plays together. But I I was spending a [37:12] lot of my time here uh you know overseas [37:15] trying to get this done. And I kind of [37:16] felt how the public debate in Washington [37:18] had an had an effect and often a [37:21] negative effect on on the talks. [37:24] >> Okay. So, I want to fast forward, Brett, [37:25] to August 2024, and I actually saw you [37:28] shortly after that. You believed you [37:31] were extremely close to a deal, and [37:33] there were even names on a list, Israeli [37:37] names that were going to be released in [37:38] the deal. It was that close. And then [37:41] six hostages were found murdered in Rafa [37:44] under Rafa including Hersh Goldberg [37:47] Poland, Eden Yushalami, [37:49] Carmel Got, Ori Denino, Alex Lubnov, and [37:53] Almog Serusi. And and this was what [37:56] Rachel Goldberg Poland, she describes [37:58] him as the beautiful six. And you wrote [38:01] in the book that Bill Burns told you [38:04] after that around that time, we don't [38:07] have a plan B. quote, "We don't have a [38:10] plan B." So, what is what a what did he [38:13] mean by that? And what did this tell [38:16] you? This this the beautiful six being [38:20] killed, what did it murdered? What did [38:21] it tell you about the assumptions [38:24] underlying the entire negotiating [38:25] strategy up to that point? [38:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's hard to honestly [38:29] it's hard to write about, hard to talk [38:31] about. Um but you know, the dates matter [38:33] here. We go through real quick. Just May [38:36] 31st, Biden lays out three-phase [38:38] ceasefire deal. It's a detailed [38:39] four-page agreement. We got everything. [38:41] Everything's in there. Netanyahu has [38:42] said yes. President lays out to the [38:44] world. UN Security Council endorses it u [38:47] unanimously. Hamas never answers. Okay, [38:50] I don't want if you want this war to end [38:52] on June 1st, right after that speech, [38:53] all pressure should be on Hamas. Just [38:55] say yes. You know, but what happens? Uh [38:58] Hezbollah launches its largest attack of [39:00] the war in early June. Ham makes this [39:02] crazy speech praising October 7th. [39:04] Basically, the Iranians are telling [39:05] Hamas not to not to compromise at all. [39:08] And we don't get an answer from Hamas [39:09] for 5 weeks. Even though this deal went [39:12] far in their direction, [39:14] Hamas's answer, although Hamas announced [39:16] to the world, we accept the deal. They [39:18] did not accept the deal. Uh [39:21] had a number of poison pills in their [39:23] response. And we worked through that in [39:26] the course of July [39:29] to put another offer down on August [39:31] 16th. [39:33] And this proposal [39:35] uh went further in the direction of [39:36] Hamas than the the May proposal. And it [39:40] had maps on Philadelphia corridor. The [39:41] Israelis would move off the beach and [39:43] have a very small perimeter. All this [39:44] stuff, it was all there. The Palestinian [39:46] prisoners that would come out for the [39:48] hostages were there. And what in the [39:51] Noman clutch were called heavy [39:52] prisoners. you know, the guys who Hamas [39:55] operatives who were serving uh serious [39:58] sentences and it killed Israelis. It's [40:00] all it's all there. We put that on on [40:02] August 16th and it is endorsed by Tamim [40:06] who's the Amir ofQatar publicly. He [40:08] calls on Hamas to take the deal and it's [40:10] endorsed by Cece and [40:14] it didn't go all the way in the [40:16] direction of Hamas but about 80% of the [40:18] way there [40:19] and [40:21] I'm hearing from the Egyptians. I trust [40:22] and others I described them in the book [40:24] that I we think we're going to get at [40:26] least something constructive here that [40:27] we can we can get traction [40:30] and I came back to Washington and once [40:33] again you're waiting on Hamas and days [40:36] go by another day goes by [40:39] and uh every day that goes by [40:42] people are dying [40:45] and on August 30 30th 31st uh I think it [40:50] was a Sunday and I was at I was out to [40:52] lunch with my family and we're waiting [40:54] on Hamas and I'm checking in with the [40:57] cutteries and the Egyptians and they're [40:58] like, "Yeah, we think we're going to get [40:59] an answer soon." Okay. And it was Bill [41:04] and I stepped out on a sidewalk and uh I [41:09] literally thought I was getting good [41:10] news that we finally got it. And um [41:15] and Bill says, "Brett, I just talked to [41:16] Ronin Bar again, the head of Shinbet." [41:19] And I said, "Yeah." and he said, um, [41:25] the Israelis just found six hostages [41:27] dead in a tunnel under Rafa. [41:32] And kind of right there, the the, you [41:33] know, you could just feel your heart [41:36] drop and kind of guts rip out of your [41:38] chest. And [clears throat] um, and then [41:40] he said, "We think one of them is [41:42] Hersh." [41:46] And uh, [41:49] I didn't want to believe it. And um and [41:51] I had been carrying around a list, you [41:54] know, of of names to this deal which [41:58] included Hirs, which included Carmel, [42:02] which included Eden, who you mentioned, [42:04] Carmemell and Eden should have come out [42:06] in November. And here's the thing, as [42:08] horrible as that is, the question is, [42:10] can we keep this process on track or [42:12] not? And and Bill's point, no plan B is [42:14] that other than a hostage deal, and I [42:17] agreed with him, there's no way to end [42:20] this war. But what did Hamas do after [42:23] this? You know, did they send message? [42:24] Do they they can communicate with us? [42:26] Did they say this was a tragic mistake [42:30] or a guard panicked or something? No, [42:32] they released videos of the dead. [42:37] Um, and the videos came out like when [42:39] the funerals were going on, [42:41] >> meaning like propaganda videos. I mean v [42:43] videos designed to torture [42:45] Israelis. [42:47] >> Yeah. So the idea again Hamas is ready [42:49] to release hostages do a deal. Show me [42:51] show me the evidence as somebody who was [42:55] right there. And this is another key [42:56] moment. [42:58] And so Dan, I'll finish on this point. [43:00] Again, this is the readers of the book [43:02] will be in these rooms. We meet on Labor [43:05] Day as President Biden, myself, Bill [43:07] Burns. [43:08] >> Labor Day 2024 after the the the the six [43:12] hostages [43:12] >> a couple days after the [43:14] >> Yeah. [43:15] >> and uh uh Kamla Harris is to my left [43:20] >> and [clears throat] we're debating what [43:21] to do, you know, and uh one of our [43:24] lawyers, Josh Gueltzer, the NYSE legal [43:26] council, said, you know, DOJ's been [43:27] sitting on indictments for Hamas [43:29] leaders. We could we could issue those. [43:30] I was like, well, yeah, like why, you [43:32] know, why why didn't we do that? [43:34] Um there was a discussion of is there [43:37] another way is there some other formula [43:39] than the August 16th text to get the [43:41] that would go maybe in more in the [43:42] direction of Hamas and the answer was no [43:45] and I I flung the list of names on the [43:47] table [43:49] and I I reached the conclusion in that [43:51] moment in dealing with this [43:55] horrific [43:57] outcome and it wasn't lost to me that it [43:59] was Rafa where these hostages were and I [44:02] said we're not going to get a hostage [44:03] deal until Yahinir is dead. [44:07] It's completely irreconcilable. And I he [44:09] there's just no way. That was my [44:12] conclusion. [44:14] And then, you know, Bill pointed out, [44:17] Bill Burns, that oh, by the way, the [44:19] Iranians might be preparing another [44:20] missile attack. [44:24] And I said, you know, the Iran, and I'd [44:25] seen the Iranians in Oman. I said, "The [44:27] Iranian, they are so they are still so [44:30] confident and they think they're [44:31] winning." [snorts] And uh and Harris [44:34] said it might be time to prove them [44:36] wrong. [44:37] And this is a key moment in this crisis [44:39] because at this point, we basically [44:42] walked away from the [44:44] we didn't walk totally away from the [44:46] table on the hostage talks, but the [44:48] conclusion was we were not going to get [44:49] a deal [44:51] until some fundamentals in the balance [44:53] of power change here. And that meant [44:55] Yaha Sininoir and it meant you know [44:57] Israel went north into Lebanon and BB [45:00] was always of the view Netanyahu prime [45:02] minister and and others we'll we will [45:06] wait on Hezbollah okay we can deal with [45:08] them some other time if we get a deal in [45:11] Gaza if we can't get a deal in Gaza then [45:14] we got to take care of this and so when [45:16] the talks really really collapsed after [45:18] the beautiful six [snorts] [45:21] uh that's when Israel went north and [45:23] then things just kind of unfold. I mean, [45:25] Israel goes north into on the Lebanon [45:28] operation. Uh, NRAA is dead. Iran does [45:32] launch another missile attack after [45:34] NRAA, an even bigger one, 200 ballistic [45:36] missiles. [45:38] Uh, we help defeat that. We then work [45:41] with the Israelis on a response. They [45:43] take out the Iranian S300's. [45:47] And that's when we started to say, [45:48] "Okay, maybe there's a way back to the [45:50] the table here." We'll be right back. [45:53] Hi, I'm Denil Hartman, president [music] [45:55] of the Shalom Hartman Institute in [45:56] Jerusalem. [45:57] >> And I'm Yosi Klein Halevy, senior fellow [45:59] at the Shalom Hartman Institute. What's [46:01] more important? To be feared by your [46:03] enemies, or morally true to yourself? [46:06] [music] [46:06] >> Should Israel strive to be a nation [46:08] among nations, or should it accept the [46:10] fact that it is now a fortress apart? [46:13] >> What do Israelis and diaspora Jews owe [46:15] each other? [46:16] >> If you're Jewish or a friend, an ally, [46:19] >> these questions have been gnawing at you [46:20] these past few years. For some of you, [46:23] like for [music] us, these questions [46:25] have been keeping you up at night. And [46:27] for some, they've been simmering in the [46:29] background, waiting for [music] answers. [46:31] But dilemmas don't always have clear [46:33] answers. What they do deserve are honest [46:37] and respectful debates. [music] And as [46:39] it happens, Yosia and I love to [46:41] challenge each other to get to the [46:43] bottom of things. We look at current [46:45] events through the lens that speaks to [46:47] us most deeply, the Jewish lens. So if [46:50] today's Jewish dilemmas are on your [46:51] mind, [music] tune in to our [46:53] conversation on For Heaven's Sake, a [46:56] partnership between Ark Media and the [46:58] Scholom Hartman Institute. [46:59] >> You can find For Heaven's Sake on Apple, [47:02] Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get [47:04] your podcasts. [47:05] >> See you there. [47:09] I want to fast forward to January of [47:11] 2025. You are still representing an [47:14] outgoing Democratic president. President [47:16] Trump is getting ready to come in and [47:18] his envoy Steve Wickoff and you are [47:21] working and negotiating side by side [47:23] together sort of divide and conquer, [47:25] division of responsibilities. [47:28] What could Wickoff say or do with [47:31] Netanyahu [47:32] that the Biden administration after 15 [47:35] months of war could no longer do? Well, [47:37] I don't think it was so much that, Dan, [47:39] but it was the fact that uh with Trump [47:41] coming in, and I knew this right after [47:44] the election, as soon as Trump won and [47:46] and the opening the time frame happened [47:48] to line up, we f we really have an [47:50] opening now. Hezbollah cuts its own deal [47:52] that cuts the legs out from under Hamas. [47:53] Like, the whole thing had kind of [47:54] changed. Yahinwir was killed on October [47:56] 16th, [47:58] and it's time to get to really make the [48:00] final push on the on the Gaza deal. And [48:02] I think we could get it. I really [48:03] thought we could get it. Trump wins the [48:05] election. And I knew immediately having [48:07] been through transitions [48:09] uh our power is going to Wayne and [48:12] Israelis and Hamas and anyone else on [48:14] the on the uh on the field here is going [48:19] to care what Trump is going to do. So I [48:22] called Jared Kushner shortly after the [48:24] election and I don't know Jared [48:26] particularly well but obviously in his [48:27] in his role in the Middle East we've [48:29] we've connected from time to time and I [48:32] just kind of laid this out and said look [48:34] I think we have an opportunity if we can [48:36] be seen as as working together and uh he [48:38] he fully agreed uh he alluded to [48:41] somebody that would be coming in to take [48:43] the Middle East file ended up being [48:44] Steve Wickoff. Biden and Trump meet in [48:46] the Oval Office, they agree to work [48:48] together. And I kind of I I go through [48:50] this in the book because I think if left [48:51] to its own devices in a polarized [48:53] Washington, Dan, we would have said, [48:56] "Good luck to Trump people coming in." [48:58] The Trump people would have said, "We're [48:59] not going to work with these Biden [49:00] people. They don't know what they're [49:01] doing." That's kind of just the the [49:03] normal course. But [snorts] I met Steve [49:05] Wickoff in a meeting in the capital with [49:07] Mike Waltz and Jake Sullivan. and JD [49:09] Vance made an appearance and uh and [49:12] described this situation and that we [49:14] have a chance to get to end the stop the [49:16] Gaza war and get the hostages out and [49:18] and and Steve I try to bring his [49:20] character he's such a character he's a [49:22] larger than life character and was just [49:24] like man he says I don't give a [49:26] about politics like I just want to save [49:28] lives this is why I'm here and we [49:31] exchanged numbers and started talking [49:33] every day now I went back to the region [49:36] saw Netanyahu in early December [49:39] And once again, you know, here's the [49:40] full deal. And Netanyahu said this first [49:44] week of December. So, uh, he talked a [49:47] lot about Iran and Fordo, which is a [49:49] diff separate topic. It's in the book, [49:51] but he said, "Look, if I can get the [49:53] full list of hostages from Hamas, [49:56] I know who's coming out. There are 33 [49:58] names on the on the list. I'll do I'm [50:00] I'm ready to do the deal." And when you [50:01] roll into January, uh, we have two [50:04] issues left. Hamas puts an outrageous [50:06] demand on the table for the number of [50:07] Palestinian prisoners serving life [50:09] sentences and and the issue of the [50:12] buffer zone and that's when Steve came [50:13] out to to join us in Doha and the [50:17] Israelis were very reluctant to take [50:19] that final step because some of these [50:21] Palestinian prisoners Dan I I don't [50:23] think this is really ever fully [50:25] appreciated um but a guy named Muhammad [50:27] Abu Warda he's serving 48 life sentences [50:30] he's he was involved in multiple suicide [50:32] bombings in the second defa [50:35] um [50:37] Balal Abuganum who killed um several [50:40] people including an American teacher. [50:42] These are the people on Hamas's list for [50:44] civilians [50:45] >> in return for civilians [50:46] >> in return for civilian hostages [50:48] including Siglchen who was a you know [50:51] American who was shot twice on October [50:52] 7th. Uh not soldiers. [snorts] [50:55] >> Uh so but this moment I'm Biden's envoy. [50:59] Steve is Trump's envoy and uh the [51:02] Israelis said yes. And I think had we [51:05] not joined forces uh we never would have [51:07] gotten the deal. And I I give I give [51:09] Trump and Steve full credit uh and I [51:13] also give Biden and our team full credit [51:16] because there wouldn't have been this is [51:17] a detailed deal. It didn't kind of just [51:19] come together in the final final days. [51:21] You know, Trump put this deadline on [51:25] uh if I don't have if the hostages are [51:27] not home by inauguration day, there'll [51:29] be hell to pay, hell to pay. Uh or all [51:33] hell will break loose. And nobody really [51:36] knew what that meant. But, you know, [51:38] that was effective. [51:40] >> It's the inauguration or not. I don't we [51:42] would not have had a had a deal and uh [51:44] we would not have gotten those hostages [51:45] out without it. And I don't want to [51:47] dwell or go back, you know, dwell too [51:50] much on on this whole this this [51:51] inflection point I asked you about [51:52] earlier, the Roth operation. Um, but but [51:56] the reason I I want to spend a moment on [51:58] it is because you've you've written [52:00] about it obviously both in your book and [52:02] some pieces uh in advance of your book's [52:04] release and then there's been responses [52:05] to what you wrote from your former [52:08] colleague. So, Phil Gordon, for [52:09] instance, who was Vice President [52:10] Harris's national security adviser, he [52:13] writes in response to you, and I'm I'm [52:15] quoting here from from X, he posts, [52:17] "Harris was hardly the only US official [52:19] to warn publicly and privately that an [52:21] Israeli assault on Rafa would be a huge [52:23] mistake, quote unquote, with potential [52:25] consequences." And then he goes on um to [52:28] explain just a lot about the overall [52:31] approach that at least he believed and [52:32] others in the administration believed [52:34] the administration should take. and he [52:36] says whatever the administration's [52:38] biggest mistakes quote unquote I think [52:39] he's quoting you um pressing Israel to [52:42] change its Rafa plans was not among [52:44] them. Now again it seems to me and not [52:47] just fixating on Rafa but just generally [52:49] there seems to be a difference in [52:51] approach between say you and other [52:54] officials in the administration in terms [52:55] of what it would take to change the [52:59] dynamic cuz you you say you said here [53:01] and you say in the book things didn't [53:03] really change until the broader [53:05] strategic environment changed. Sinar's [53:07] dead Hezbollah is kind of decoupled and [53:09] on defense that's when things really [53:10] start to change. [53:12] >> Yeah. the biggest mistake. There's a [53:14] quote from Ronan Bar uh when we were [53:16] kind of reflecting on this at a dinner [53:18] we had a number of foreign officials um [53:21] that that public debate how it played [53:23] into the into the hostage talks and I [53:26] mean taking uh Phil's point there and I [53:28] have great respect for Phil uh you know [53:30] two things can be true there are [53:32] concerns about how the Israelis are [53:33] going to pursue the Rafa operation we [53:35] want to make sure civilians are able to [53:36] get out before the battle begins how's [53:38] that going to go it's all true we all [53:40] shared that and then how do you deal [53:42] with that uh do you deal with it [53:44] privately like like we did we had a [53:46] number of meetings where all of our [53:48] humanitarian officials were discussing [53:51] directly with the Israelis and we did [53:52] all that again behind closed doors. uh [53:55] or do you have a a very public kind of [53:59] like an ultimatum to the Israelis that [54:02] sounded like if you go there could be a [54:04] break with the US and I I think there's [54:06] no question that public that public [54:08] aspect of that debate [54:11] I do not think affected the Israeli [54:14] operation and it but it definitely [54:15] played back into the hostage [54:17] negotiation. There's no doubt and we now [54:19] know and we thought then but we didn't [54:22] know that Sinoir who is the guy who [54:25] holds the keys to the hostages lit the [54:28] literal keys was in Rafa while this is [54:31] playing out and we know Sinoir consumes [54:34] media. [snorts] [54:36] So this is the you know the tension [54:39] between [54:41] uh what you say here in Washington [54:43] publicly will have an influence on all [54:45] the actors that we're trying to [54:47] influence. So the Israelis are not the [54:49] only actor. There are other actors in [54:51] this crisis. It's hommin it's it's [54:53] Nalla. It's Sinir who's the guy who's [54:56] going to say yes or no to a deal. And I [54:58] always thought [55:00] I look the only way to end this is a [55:02] deal and we got to put the screws to sin [55:05] or he is it's a yes or no. And so if he [55:08] thinks there's about to be a major [55:10] breach with the US and Israel which is [55:12] what he wants what Israel wants I think [55:13] that is that is not not helpful. Just [55:16] one more larger point here and people [55:18] can debate this you know I mean October [55:21] 7th was such an unprecedented attack and [55:24] Israel took the position from the [55:26] beginning that however this ends Hamas [55:28] cannot be in power and that wasn't just [55:29] Netanyahu that was everybody I described [55:31] my visit uh our visit to Israel early on [55:34] where you know we saw Benny Gance and [55:36] Gay Eisenhot and everybody uh unanimous [55:39] consensus on that point. However this [55:42] ends, Hamas can now be in power in Gaza. [55:45] And the Israelis were unanimous. We are [55:47] going in on the ground. Because we were [55:48] thinking early on, I described this in [55:50] detail. Can is there a way to do this [55:51] without even going in on the ground? The [55:53] answer is absolutely not. Uh I think [55:54] some took the position that this was [55:56] just another, you know, maybe like the [55:58] 2014 Gaza war that was in the Obama [56:01] administration. I didn't work on any of [56:02] that, but [56:04] you know, there will be a short war and [56:06] then there'll be a ceasefire. Hamas will [56:08] stay in power and you'll find a way. [56:10] like that was not how this was going to [56:12] go [56:14] and I don't think there's anything an [56:15] American president could have done uh to [56:19] convince the Israelis to just leave [56:20] Hamas in power in Gaza. So, so [snorts] [56:23] it it gets down to kind of the prism [56:25] through which uh if you accept the [56:27] legitimacy of the objective that Hamas [56:30] can no longer be in power at the end of [56:31] this um [56:34] that then you know how do you actually [56:36] achieve that? Well, Brett, you did have [56:39] a tragically had a front row seat to to [56:41] the impact this all had on Israeli [56:44] society and the and the hostage crisis [56:48] did feel like it was tearing Israeli [56:50] society apart. And I know like you had a [56:53] front row seat, but you're an outsider. [56:55] What was your interpretation of what was [56:57] going on in Israeli society? because it [56:59] sounds like you were speaking to [57:00] Israelis [57:01] of all communities and of all, you know, [57:05] private citizens, public officials, [57:08] people on the right, people on the left, [57:10] people I mean, you you were dealing with [57:12] numerous aspects of Israeli life. [57:16] What was your interpretation of what was [57:18] going on [57:19] >> as an outsider but someone who spent a [57:21] lot of time there I think the country [57:24] uh there was a dichotomy between the [57:26] country being unified and mobilized uh [57:31] after October 7th I I described some of [57:34] those scenes you see it with your own [57:35] eyes and the whole and also this [57:38] division in Israeli society this kind of [57:41] polarized division that we also have [57:42] here uh was also very very apparent But [57:46] I talk in the book, Dan, about I I [57:48] happen to be in Israel in December of [57:50] 2023 [57:53] uh when Gotti Eisenot's son was killed [57:55] in Gaza [57:58] and I had known Gotti before. [58:02] I think this gets to your question about [58:04] just in society and Gotti of course is a [58:07] former chief of defense and he's now a [58:09] political opposition to Netanyahu and [58:11] the election that is going to happen. [58:14] But I went to his home [58:17] on the last day of the Shiva for gal for [58:20] his uh for his son. [58:23] It was me and Jake Sullivan [58:26] and obviously a very emotional moment. [58:29] Um this is in the book and I you I spoke [58:33] with Gotti before putting this in the [58:34] book and I'm uh he reached behind him [58:38] for a a book on his shelf [58:41] and it was a book about the second [58:43] inifada and uh he had written a kind of [58:46] an article for the book or he's quoted [58:48] in it and he had the book marked and he [58:51] turns to this page and he quotes himself [58:55] from 20 or so years ago and he says is [58:59] I'm the father of a 5-year-old. I have a [59:02] 5-year-old son and [59:06] we know in Israel we we pay the we pay [59:08] the price of of war and of our security. [59:12] Uh [59:14] and he closed the book and put it on a [59:16] shelf and he said, "You know, that [59:17] 5-year-old son was gal [59:20] and he said, I wish I wish I had been [59:21] wrong." And yet Gadi believed Israel had [59:25] to defeat Hamas [59:28] and he lost a nephew as well. [59:31] So, uh, my hope for Israel, Dan, is that [59:34] somehow the country can politically [59:36] unite with a with a more of a consensus [59:39] type government because I think it [59:40] really needs it. Not that's [59:41] [clears throat] not for me to say, but I [59:42] I think this dichotomy between [59:46] being mobilized and unified against [59:48] common enemies, which is there, and yet [59:50] being so riven with divisions, I just [59:52] think is a is a serious challenge that I [59:54] hope I hope Israel can overcome. And as [59:57] you said, this is this is this issue, [60:00] this war, this what to do, how to [60:03] respond or not so much how to respond to [60:04] the war, but how to deal with the [60:05] hostages tore [60:07] Israeli society apart. And there's [60:10] aspects of it that are tearing American [60:12] society apart. And it's it's it's it's [60:16] perplexing to me, but it is a fact that [60:19] our politics, at least in certain [60:21] aspects of our politics, have been [60:23] deeply polarized because of Israel, [60:26] whatever that means to people. And [60:27] certainly how Israel's conducted itself [60:30] since October 7th. Again, fair or not [60:32] fair, the criticism may be, but this is [60:34] now determining the outcome of [60:36] elections. um in the United States. I [60:39] mean, it's it's it is like a top two or [60:41] three issue for a whole swath of [60:43] American voters. I guess what based on [60:47] your own experience, what do you think [60:50] people don't understand here about [60:52] Israel? And you can take that anywhere [60:53] you want. You know, what what do you [60:55] think people hear? If you know, you can [60:57] get in front of the fiercest critics of [61:00] what Israel has done since October 7th [61:03] or for what it had done before October [61:05] 7th, whether they're former colleagues [61:07] of yours in government, whether they're, [61:11] you know, journalist types, analysts, [61:13] people running for office now. What what [61:16] you had a front row seat to all of this. [61:17] You lived it and breathed it. What do [61:19] you understand that they don't? One [61:21] thing that that changed after October [61:23] 7th that is now in the fabric of Israel [61:27] and I think will be true of any Israeli [61:29] government and I think any future US [61:31] administration think about this. You [61:33] have to you have to understand this. Uh [61:36] Israel will never allow threats to [61:38] gather again [61:40] ever. They will not allow Hamas to [61:42] reconstitute on their borders. They will [61:44] not allow Hezbollah to be sitting with [61:46] 30,000 troops and digging tunnels on the [61:48] borders ever. [61:50] It's just they they won't [61:52] and that reaches further. They will not [61:56] they will act [61:59] uh against Iran. For example, if Iran is [62:02] reconstituting its nuclear program or [62:04] it's ballistic missile program is [62:06] getting to a kind of a point of no [62:07] return, Israel will act after what [62:10] happened. [62:12] I just think that is so deeply ingrained [62:13] and you have to understand that. [62:16] And if an American president tells them [62:18] not to act or just accept the fact that [62:20] you're going to have 30,000 Hezbollah [62:22] troops on the border, I think any [62:23] Israeli prime minister will say, "Sorry, [62:25] I got to do it to protect my people." [62:28] That is kind of bedrock. And I think we [62:31] the way the United States can influence [62:33] that is by having a close relationship. [62:35] Frankly, uh I think [62:38] holding Israel at increasingly arms [62:40] length um is going to make the situation [62:44] much more volatile and dangerous because [62:46] I think Israeli conduct will become even [62:48] more unpredictable and the enemies of [62:50] Israel which are determined and so long [62:53] as this revolutionary system is in power [62:55] in Iran, they have two goals. They want [62:57] to get the US out of the region and they [62:59] want to destroy Israel. They say it and [63:00] they mean it. You're going to have a [63:02] much an even worse situation in the [63:04] Middle East. I'll just I'll end on this [63:06] anecdote. Um I I talk a little bit about [63:08] the difference in strategic cultures, [63:10] Dan. Um and one of my colleagues in in [63:12] Mossad as we're working through this [63:14] said, you know, in the United States, [63:16] your strategic culture, [63:19] if you're in the national security [63:21] business [63:22] America, about 80% planning, we're [63:24] always planning, 10% acting, and then [63:28] 10% doing the afteraction review and and [63:32] feeding back into planning. Israel 90% [63:35] acting [63:37] and [snorts] Israel is not in the [63:38] national security business in the [63:39] national survival business 90% acting [63:42] and then 10% acting again to address the [63:45] unintended consequences of act and [63:48] there's something there's something to [63:49] that uh but I think understanding the [63:52] differences in [63:54] strategic culture and the reality that [63:56] Israel faces and what any leader in [63:58] Israel is going to be calculating and [64:00] also how American policy affects the [64:03] thinking of [64:05] the determined enemies of Israel and of [64:07] us, that's Iran, that's others, uh has [64:10] to be part of the calculation as as we [64:12] decide in Washington what the right [64:14] policies are going forward. [64:16] >> Well, you certainly to your point about [64:17] Israelis about 90% acting, you certainly [64:19] saw that on fly Dubai flight number [64:22] 1073. I [64:24] >> I think I said on CNN, uh again, there's [64:27] an ethos in Israel. Don't mess with [64:28] Israelis. We will act. We're not going [64:30] to wait for others to ah we will act. [64:33] And you saw that uh [64:36] don't mess with Israelis up up front on [64:38] that extraordinary uh airplane. Uh just [64:41] amazing. And had that succeeded, Dan, I [64:44] mean [64:46] I I shudder to think where we would be. [64:49] >> Meaning not just the bloodshed that [64:51] would have resulted, but also the the [64:53] spark it would have been for God knows [64:54] what in the region. [64:56] >> Right. 100%. [64:57] >> All right, Brett. The book is Brink [65:00] Inside the Race to Free the October 7th [65:02] Hostages, which will be released on um [65:05] on Tuesday. It is a very important read. [65:08] I I couldn't recommend it enough. I [65:10] actually it's it's I read it fast. You [65:13] know, I normally don't read that fast. I [65:15] read it fast uh just in a couple of [65:16] sittings. So, um if uh if if readers are [65:21] allergic to long reads that require a [65:23] big commitment, this one will will [65:26] certainly inform you and give you really [65:28] really firsthand accounts and context [65:31] and um you can do it efficiently. So, [65:33] don't don't just rely on this podcast [65:36] conversation. Use as a teaser to go [65:38] order the book and dive in. Brett, [65:39] [snorts] as always, thank you. Uh it's [65:41] great to see you. Thank you for your [65:43] service and your friendship and um look [65:47] forward to having you back on. [65:48] >> Thank you, Dan. Likewise. Great to be [65:50] here. [music] [65:59] >> Hi, it's Dan Senor. Israel is heading [66:01] into one of its [music] most [66:03] consequential elections, and this time [66:05] the whole world is watching closely. Hot [66:08] takes and daily noise are pretty much [66:10] guaranteed to populate your media diet. 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