Transcript [00:00] For someone who's tuned out since [00:02] spring, what's happening with the US, [00:04] Israel, Iran war? [00:06] >> Israel no longer assesses threats based [00:09] on an evaluation of our enemy's motives [00:12] or are they deterred. Uh we evaluate uh [00:15] threats solely based on capability. If [00:18] we see capabilities, we attack them. All [00:21] of the active kinetic problems in the [00:23] Middle East, the terrorism, the wars, [00:25] they all trace back to Iran. Do you see [00:28] a world in which Israel could remove [00:30] Iran, pursue regime change, remove the [00:33] leadership? I mean, do you see a way [00:35] where they could do that without the US? [00:37] It doesn't make Israelis feel bad or [00:39] feel like we need to change. It just [00:41] makes us realize that the world doesn't [00:43] know what on earth is going on and it [00:45] makes us care even less what people [00:47] think. 50 of the 75,000 mosques in Iran [00:52] had recently closed because no one shows [00:54] up anymore. the your characterization of [00:58] this war being kind of in a state of [01:00] attrition or kind of similar to what [01:01] we've seen in in Russia and Ukraine is [01:04] uh is actually inaccurate. Rabbi Pesak, [01:07] can you hear me? [01:08] >> I can hear you fine. [01:11] Perfect. There we go. I believe we are [01:14] good to go [01:22] today guys. Welcome, welcome to this uh [01:24] this conversation. I'm very excited [01:25] about this one because we're talking to [01:27] one of my favorite guests to speak to um [01:30] Rabbi Pesak who knows about all things [01:32] in the Middle East, all things American [01:35] conservatism, you know, Israel, um [01:38] really the West. Uh he's an expert in [01:40] all these matters. And the last [01:42] conversation we had was really, really [01:44] helpful. And so this is for those people [01:45] who maybe have tuned out. And let's be [01:49] honest, whilst we care about what's [01:51] happening around the world, here in the [01:52] UK, we have our own issues. There's lots [01:54] going on in the West at large. So, you [01:57] would be forgiven for tuning out since [02:00] March. So, strap into your seats if you [02:03] like. We're going to go through a bunch [02:04] of different things happening in the [02:06] American right in Israel, in in the [02:08] Middle East, sort of at large, and Rabbi [02:11] Pesak is going to help us make sense of [02:13] it. I want to start with the Iran war [02:15] because I was in the shower, Rabbi, just [02:17] two days ago. Maybe that's too much [02:18] information. I don't want you to have [02:19] that imagery. Sorry. I I I take that [02:21] back. I was I was spending some time [02:24] alone not too long ago and I thought to [02:25] myself, it's so interesting how short [02:29] people's attention spans are. I remember [02:30] when the Ukraine war started and [02:32] everybody in the UK was glued to their [02:35] TV screens. We could not believe what [02:36] Russia was doing. Fast forward five or [02:40] six months or so and all the research is [02:42] showing people have totally moved on. [02:44] Don't know what's happening anymore. We [02:45] don't know who's winning. we don't know [02:46] what's happening. Uh you know the the [02:48] wars kind of got to the attrition stage [02:50] where nothing much is happening. I would [02:53] say the same is true of what's happened [02:55] in the Middle East especially with the U [02:57] US Israel Iran war however you want to [02:59] phrase it in that you know in February [03:02] 28th of February 2026 was when it [03:04] started um we saw an action uh we saw [03:08] the supreme leader um uh Kame he was [03:12] killed he he was he was um assassinated [03:15] and ever since then you know all we've [03:17] been hearing really is about Hormuz and [03:19] the straight of Hormuz and now you can [03:22] take ships now you can't take ships now [03:24] you can take ships so people have no [03:25] clue anymore what's going on now I know [03:28] this is a fastmoving situation but Rabbi [03:31] Pesak could you help us understand for [03:33] someone who's tuned out since spring [03:36] what's happening with the US Israel Iran [03:39] war [03:42] first of all thank you so much for [03:43] having me back it's an honor to to talk [03:45] to you um the your characterization of [03:50] this war being kind of in a state of [03:52] attrition or kind of similar to what [03:53] we've seen in in Russia and Ukraine or [03:56] the perception that many people have [03:58] that we're in this kind of stalemate is [04:01] uh is actually inaccurate and it's an [04:04] accurate it's uh the there's a good [04:07] reason why people feel that way and that [04:09] is for the reason you just said when [04:10] there's when there's large-scale bombing [04:13] going on it's very dramatic it's very [04:14] loud it's very visible and you know so [04:17] as far as we're concerned war is [04:19] happening [04:20] But uh but what's happening now, what's [04:23] been happening for the last 4 months [04:24] doesn't feel quite uh like war. You [04:27] know, you're not going to take out your [04:29] popcorn and watch a bunch, you know, and [04:31] watch news reports about negotiations. [04:32] It's not the same as those attacks. But [04:36] you correctly said that this is a very [04:38] fastmoving situation. This is not like [04:40] Russia or Ukraine. This is actually a [04:42] very fastmoving war. It's just not as as [04:45] loud and visible. Let me explain. For [04:47] the first 40 days of this war, from [04:49] February 28th until the ceasefire went [04:51] into effect on April 8th, we had, as you [04:53] said, we had these we had these [04:55] widescale attacks, these broad attacks [04:57] that were being carried out by a joint, [04:59] it was a joint operation of the Israelis [05:01] and the Americans. For the first few [05:03] weeks of that, it focused almost [05:05] entirely on military targets, on taking [05:07] out their ballistic missile program, on [05:10] uh on on taking out many other of their [05:12] military installations. And of course, [05:13] the famous decapitation strikes against [05:16] their leadership. Multiple layers of [05:17] leadership were were taken out in those [05:19] first few weeks. And then the Iranian [05:22] regime closed the straight of Hormuz. [05:24] The Americans turned their attention to [05:26] the straight of Hormuz uh because gas [05:29] prices started spiking and causing [05:31] massive domestic problems for Trump at [05:33] home. The Israelis for the last 3 weeks [05:35] of that first 40 days of fighting turned [05:38] their attention towards Iranian regime [05:41] targets. They weren't focused at all on [05:42] the Straight of Hormuz. The Israelis [05:44] were hitting the IRGC, the Islamic [05:46] Revolutionary Guard Corps, which is [05:48] actually the, you know, that's the [05:50] regime. It's not the same as the Iranian [05:52] army. Iran actually has two armies. Uh [05:55] which is uh to that scale it's uncommon [05:58] but to have various militaries that are [06:01] governed by different people is not [06:03] uncommon in dictatorships. Dictators are [06:05] always afraid of military coups. So they [06:07] always have a separate militia like uh [06:09] uh you know like their own guards who [06:11] who are more loyal to them that can uh [06:14] and in Iran this is on steroids where [06:16] you actually have two air forces, two [06:18] navies, you have two armies. So the IRGC [06:21] which is the regime also has the besiege [06:24] which is their stormtroopers. Those are [06:25] the guys who who kill protesters who [06:27] were like you know the thugs in the [06:29] street. Um so Israel started hitting [06:32] them. They started hitting IRGC targets. [06:34] They started hitting besiege. They [06:36] started hitting their checkpoints. They [06:38] even announced that when the Iranian [06:40] people come out into the street, the [06:42] Israelis will be overhead with drones [06:43] and helicopters protecting them. And [06:46] this was starting to cause widespread [06:48] defections in the IRGC. And the regime [06:50] looked like it was really teetering. In [06:52] other words, the Israelis were focused [06:53] on the things that would actually bring [06:55] down the regime because it is a [06:56] strategic goal for Israel to bring down [06:58] the Iranian regime. It's a regime that [07:00] as it's number one identifying [07:03] ideological uh slogan and it's not just [07:06] slogan, it's also policy is the [07:08] destruction of the state of Israel. [07:09] That's why that's what they invested all [07:10] the billions in. [07:11] >> But on on that, Rabbi, if I could just [07:13] interrupt you there, you said the state [07:15] the stated aims of Israel is to is to [07:18] bring down the Iranian regime. Is that [07:20] even possible? Because one of the [07:22] reasons I think folks [07:23] >> Oh, we'll get to that. Oh, we will get [07:24] to that. We will get to that. We will [07:26] get to that. And it's important to note [07:28] No, no, it's good. It's good that you [07:30] bring it up because let me This is uh [07:31] you know, if we're giving an overview, [07:33] >> let's just also point out that this was [07:35] not a stated aim of the Americans. The [07:37] uh President Trump on the first day of [07:39] the war gave an eight-minute speech [07:40] where he laid out four objectives, four [07:43] military objectives of the Americans, [07:45] and they were to destroy the Iranian [07:47] Navy, to uh to destroy their ballistic [07:50] missile program, to make uh to deal with [07:53] their nuclear program to make it [07:54] impossible for them to ever have a [07:55] nuclear weapon, and to uh destroy their [07:59] ability to fund and operate their proxy [08:02] network, which is their network of of [08:03] terrorist militias not only across the [08:05] region, but across the world. Okay, that [08:07] was the four stated objectives. Trump [08:09] spoke about regime change in that [08:11] speech, but he didn't talk about it as a [08:13] goal. He talked about it more as uh you [08:16] know, he turned to the Iranian people [08:17] and said the hour of your freedom is at [08:19] hand. And he said that the United States [08:20] would create the conditions under which [08:23] the Iranian people could take the could [08:25] take their country back. That was the [08:27] last we heard about regime change from [08:29] Trump, but he didn't state it as a as an [08:31] objective. For the Israelis, they're [08:32] very open about the fact that the only [08:34] way we're really going to solve these [08:35] problems is by taking down the regime. [08:37] And let me be very clear, the reason [08:39] that it's an objective of Israel is not [08:41] just because, oh, this is a regime that [08:43] hates us, but if you think about the [08:45] Middle East as a as a place with lots of [08:47] conflict and there's wars going on and [08:48] there's terrorism, which is how everyone [08:49] correctly views the Middle East, it's [08:52] actually much simpler than people [08:53] realize because [08:56] all of the active kinetic problems in [08:58] the Middle East, the terrorism, the [09:00] wars, they all trace back to Iran. If [09:03] you remove the Iranian regime, then that [09:05] means you don't have anymore because [09:07] they're they're not really even I mean [09:09] we call them a proxy of Iran, but [09:11] they're they're different than a proxy. [09:13] They're actually the the foreign legion [09:15] as it were of Iran. Like if the United [09:16] States has troops stationed in another [09:18] country, we don't call those troops a [09:20] proxy of the United States. They are [09:22] their troops in another country. And [09:24] that's the relationship of to Iran as [09:26] opposed to the relationship of Kamas and [09:29] the Houthis and some of the other [09:31] militias that Iran funds who are [09:33] actually independent organizations who [09:34] get funding and weaponry from Iran, but [09:36] they're not they're not actually Iran. [09:38] Okay, that's that's the difference [09:40] between them. But but that's neither [09:42] here nor there for the point that I'm [09:43] making, which is that if you want to [09:46] make sure that Iran cannot cannot [09:48] operate its proxies, if you want to make [09:50] sure that they're not going to drive to [09:51] a nuclear weapon, if you want to make [09:52] sure that they're not going to have a [09:53] ballistic missile program, etc., etc., [09:56] the only way to do it is to take down [09:57] the regime. And all the problems in the [09:59] Middle East trace back to Iran. Israel's [10:01] wars, whether it's on the northern [10:03] border withah or on the southern border [10:05] with Hamas over the last 30, 40 years, [10:08] have all been with Iranian proxies. The [10:11] other unrest that's going on between [10:12] Saudi Arabia and Yemen or the Yemen [10:15] civil war and I'm sorry and the Houthis [10:16] or the Yemen civil war that's taking [10:18] place or all the unrest in Iraq between [10:20] various militias u or even the [10:23] destabilization of Syria. This all goes [10:26] back to tension that has to do with [10:28] Iranianbacked militias. If you take Iran [10:30] off the table completely, it's not like [10:32] the Saudis or the Egyptians or the [10:34] Jordanians or the Lebanese withoutah are [10:37] about to attack anybody. They're not [10:39] going to. [10:40] >> In it was the Middle East could actually [10:41] be a pretty peaceful place if you get [10:43] rid of the Iranian regime. [10:44] >> So question for you. question for you [10:46] then because because you you know and I [10:48] do want to go here now because it does [10:49] seem as though you stumbled upon what is [10:51] a bit of a you know the the confusion [10:54] for a lot of people watching this in [10:55] that [10:56] >> you know Israel as you said is there's a [10:58] clear strategic aim they have which is [11:01] the source of all our problems the [11:04] country that's led by a group that seem [11:07] devoted to our destruction you know they [11:09] need to be moved off the table Israel is [11:11] a country of 9 million people um Iran [11:14] you know lost The estimate says [11:16] something like 92 million people. So [11:17] it's almost 10 times the size of Israel [11:20] just by population. Um you know do you [11:23] see a world in which Israel could remove [11:26] Iran um or you know pursue regime change [11:30] uh remove the leadership? I mean do you [11:31] see a way where they could do that [11:33] without the US? [11:35] >> Oh absolutely. Uh absolutely. I Israel [11:39] the Israeli military establishment [11:41] actually has plans like sitting in a [11:43] drawer. They know exactly what they need [11:45] to do to bring down the Iranian regime. [11:47] And let's not talk about regime change. [11:48] We're talking about regime removal. What [11:50] it because saying that regime change [11:52] implies that we're going to have some [11:54] involvement in whatever comes next. And [11:56] that's not the issue. You know, uh this, [11:59] you know, unfortunately for the Iranian [12:01] people, they brought this regime to [12:03] power in a revolution in 1979. And the [12:06] sad fact of real life, like real life is [12:08] pretty, you know, can be pretty [12:10] difficult sometimes and it might get [12:11] bloody. Uh but as far as as far as [12:14] Israel's concerned, looking out for our [12:15] national interests, we have this regime [12:18] that seeks our destruction, not just in [12:20] rhetoric, but very actively uh pouring [12:23] billions of dollars every year into it. [12:24] Even even now with whatever little money [12:27] they're making, they're still shoveling [12:28] money at even as their people are [12:30] starving. So they are hellbent on the [12:32] destruction of Israel. and it's in [12:33] Israel's national interest to destroy [12:35] them. If that means that it causes lots [12:36] of chaos and bloodshed internally in [12:39] some sort of in whatever comes next as [12:42] the Iranian people try to take back [12:44] their country, that's up to the Iranian [12:46] people to do. Uh you know, there's this [12:48] is not like you break it, you bought it, [12:50] that Israel's responsible for what comes [12:51] next. But but the the the difficulty [12:54] though just just on that point is [12:58] >> and and this is where I I really want us [13:00] to sort of maybe double click is [13:03] >> you know a part of me does fear [13:05] sometimes we we are in the realm of the [13:08] theoretical and of course I would love [13:09] you to press deeper because you know you [13:12] speak about regime change well as you [13:14] sorry you speak about regime replacement [13:16] you know you know Trump was celebrating [13:18] a great victory on the 1st of March when [13:20] uh the supreme leader was killed of [13:22] course uh sorry on the 20th of February [13:24] 1st of March is when his death was [13:25] announced but of course pretty much by [13:28] the 8th of March his son's taken over is [13:30] now the supreme leader again there were [13:32] different military leaders assassinated [13:33] as well and killed during that uh US uh [13:36] Israeli action but from what I've read [13:40] Iran is relatively hasn't changed in [13:43] fact some would say people there are [13:46] more entrenched in their beliefs um [13:47] there's more of a fanatic I mean you got [13:49] a younger leader now who is even more [13:52] fanatical. You know, practically [13:54] speaking, logically speaking, what plans [13:57] could Israel have when already [14:00] assassinating the leader hasn't helped? [14:02] Killing a bunch of military leaders [14:03] hasn't helped. Trying to stoke, and this [14:05] is reports have showed this, trying to [14:07] stoke and and actually maybe contribute [14:09] to civil unrest hasn't helped. What what [14:12] what do you think could happen absent of [14:15] US help such that you'd you'd actually [14:18] see a regime replacement in a country of [14:20] 90 plus million people? [14:24] It's a great question. Well, for [14:26] starters, you can point to, you know, if [14:30] you look at pictures of the big rallies, [14:32] let's say at the funeral for Kami, uh, [14:34] and or you listen to these reports about [14:36] how they've actually gotten more [14:37] entrenched, you can get this false [14:40] positive, this illusion that the regime [14:43] is on solid ground with its people. Uh, [14:46] that look, it's it's it's kind of [14:48] similar to China on a smaller scale. You [14:50] know, the Chinese Communist Party is [14:54] only about 10% of the of of the Chinese [14:58] population, [14:59] but when you're talking about 10% of a [15:02] population that size, you're still [15:05] talking about [15:08] 90 million people, 100 million people. I [15:11] mean, think of how many people there are [15:12] in China. And that's enough people to [15:15] fill many, many large cities. A lot of [15:16] people don't realize it when you visit [15:18] China and you visit some, you know, [15:19] beautiful sparkling, you know, se, you [15:22] know, western looking city and everyone [15:23] looks kind of happy and and wellto-do. [15:26] Those are all members of the Chinese [15:27] Communist Party. The actual peasants who [15:29] are being enslaved. You don't even see [15:30] them. They're not even allowed in those [15:32] cities. So, it's kind of similar in in [15:34] Iran. There are a few million people who [15:38] make up the regime, who are the diehards [15:41] who, you know, who who believe in this [15:43] fanatical ideology, who serve in the [15:45] besiege in the IRGC. A few million [15:47] people is enough to suppress 90 million, [15:49] but the vast majority of that 90 million [15:51] is against the regime. How do we know [15:52] this? We know this from, you know, [15:54] there's interesting indicators. A few [15:56] years ago at a ceremony at a at a at an [16:00] Islamic seminary in Thran, one of the [16:03] leaders uh one of the top clerics in [16:06] Iran was kind of like giving the [16:07] commencement speech at a graduation [16:09] ceremony and he let slip something that [16:11] I don't think he expected to make it out [16:13] to Western media, but he let slip that [16:16] uh that [16:19] 50 of the 75,000 mosques in Iran had [16:24] recently closed. because no one shows up [16:26] anymore. [16:28] 50 out of 75,000, twothirds of the [16:31] mosques over the course of of the last [16:33] decade or so have actually shut down [16:36] because people don't go to mosques. Iran [16:37] has the lowest mosque attendance in the [16:39] entire Muslim world. We think of it as a [16:41] religious country. It's not. It's [16:43] actually the most secular [16:45] country that's officially called a [16:47] Muslim country. Um the vast majority of [16:50] the people there are, you know, hate the [16:51] regime and the regime fears them. And we [16:53] see what the regime is doing because [16:54] they fear them. You know, right now, [16:56] just in the last week alone, they've [16:58] stepped up the executions of people that [17:00] they arrested during the last protest. [17:01] You know, they're still executing people [17:03] every day. They have uh they're getting [17:06] ready for for more uh for more shutdown [17:09] of communication. They've closed [17:12] hundreds of cafes and health clubs and [17:15] uh and areas where people congregate. [17:17] They're getting worried about the people [17:18] taking to the streets again. Now, in [17:20] terms of what we could actually do to [17:21] bring down the regime, I actually wrote [17:22] a column about this. I'm a columnist for [17:24] the Jerusalem Post, and I wrote a column [17:25] about this uh about a month ago about [17:28] things that need that could be done that [17:30] would actually bring down the regime. Uh [17:33] and first and foremost of them is, you [17:35] know, President Trump has, you know, the [17:37] Americans have been hitting military [17:39] installations, bridges, infrastructure. [17:41] You know, Trump said, oh, you know, for [17:43] every ship that they hit in Hormuz, [17:44] we're going to hit one of their bridges. [17:46] But that's not going to bring down the [17:47] regime. What will bring down the regime [17:49] is the things that Israel was doing in [17:51] the last few weeks of of the original [17:53] round of fighting, which is going after [17:56] uh the leadership and going after the [17:58] IRGC and the besieged checkpoints and [18:00] headquarters. You might notice, and many [18:02] people who are following this at all [18:04] will notice, that over the last uh two [18:07] months where there's been a re uh a [18:10] renewal of hostilities, Iran has bombed [18:14] all of its neighboring Arab countries. [18:16] It even bombed Syria. The one country [18:19] that Iran hasn't fired a single missile [18:22] at is Israel. Why are they avoiding [18:26] Israel? they're avoiding Israel because [18:28] they know that the actions the Israelis [18:29] will take will actually destabilize the [18:31] regime. [18:32] >> Um, and there are ways and so in the in [18:35] the opin in the column that I wrote, I [18:37] actually outlined five different things [18:38] that we could do without putting any [18:39] boots on the ground that will really uh [18:41] serve to destabilize the regime. Um, but [18:44] Trump is already doing one of them, [18:46] which is this economic pressure. And [18:48] this is what I this is what when I when [18:50] I started out my remarks and I said that [18:51] to outsiders to people sort of casually [18:53] following it looks like we're in a [18:55] stalemate is because the economic [18:57] pressure is not so visible in in [18:59] headlines. It's not so v you know it's [19:01] not like bombing and the economic [19:03] pressure on Iran is immense. It's [19:05] getting really really severe. the [19:07] economic situation is getting more and [19:08] more dire by the day and uh eventually [19:12] this you know Trump's strategy right now [19:15] is that the economic pressure alone will [19:17] eventually cause the regime to buckle [19:19] and to come to the negotiating table and [19:21] capitulate. I don't think that's [19:23] accurate. Uh I I'm still in favor of the [19:25] economic pressure. I don't think they [19:27] will ever capitulate. They are [19:28] ideologically I mean these are people [19:29] who believe this is it [19:32] >> in bringing the apocalypse, right? they [19:33] believe and and and the question some [19:35] would pose and I mean the the last kind [19:38] of thing I'd love I'd love to speak to [19:40] you kind of shortly on this is just you [19:42] know to what degree does public consent [19:46] matter um because you know this is this [19:49] has become quite protracted of course [19:51] Trump maybe drunk of Venezuela people [19:53] have lots of uh perspectives in February [19:56] he really did think this would be a [19:57] quick war one week kill the uh the the [20:00] supreme leader there will be an uprising [20:02] thing, you know, the the more moderate [20:04] voices will take over and and a really [20:06] detested regime will change. And that [20:08] hasn't happened. And of course, we are [20:09] now going getting ready to go into [20:11] winter, well into autumn. Uh and and [20:14] this this is still going on, you know. [20:15] And so now the latest figures show as [20:19] little as 30% of Americans support uh [20:22] you know US uh Israeli action in Iran at [20:26] some like know what number does that [20:28] have to get to until America until you [20:30] know the Trump say Trump regime the [20:33] Trump presidency um say okay you know [20:36] what guys you know we we we now have [20:38] lost all public support for this and [20:42] Israel you're alone. I I gather the the [20:44] the numbers for supporting Israel for [20:46] the act for the actions around 73%. So [20:48] it's much higher for obvious reasons. [20:50] But um what do you make of that? How [20:53] long this has gone on and essentially [20:55] the loss of public support for this kind [20:58] of action? [20:59] >> Yeah. Well, this brings us back to the [21:01] timeline when the war stopped when when [21:04] President Trump made the decision to go [21:05] to negotiations uh and to go to a [21:08] ceasefire on April 8th uh at the behest [21:11] of Pakistan who told Trump that he could [21:13] have the strait that the Straits of [21:15] Hormuz could be open very shortly with a [21:17] quick negotiation. And I think Trump [21:19] thought that at that point the Iranians [21:21] were going to capitulate. And I still he [21:23] I think he still believes that there is [21:26] some breaking point that through a [21:29] combination of military action and [21:31] economic pressure that there is some [21:33] point where they will bend a knee. And I [21:34] don't think there is. I don't think [21:35] there is any such point. I I think the [21:37] whole strategy is flawed and that [21:40] instead of trying to bring them to the [21:42] negotiating table to surrender, they [21:44] actually just need to be defeated. And [21:46] there's a big difference between those [21:48] two things. And that's where the I am [21:50] not I am not in favor uh meaning I'm not [21:54] giving uh good high marks to how Trump [21:58] has handled this war. Okay, that doesn't [22:00] mean when I say I'm in favor I'm in [22:02] favor of all the economic pressure and [22:03] go ahead. You want to bomb them again? [22:05] Go ahead. It's not going to bring down [22:06] the regime. But the the original sin of [22:09] this war was going to that ceasefire on [22:12] April 8th because had they just [22:15] continued and allowed the Israelis a [22:17] free hand to keep doing what they were [22:18] doing, [22:20] the regime would have collapsed already [22:22] because Israel was actually causing mass [22:24] defections in the IRGC, which have now [22:26] ceased. In fact, the Iranians have [22:28] brought in more Shiite militias who are [22:30] willing to kill their civilians from [22:32] Iraq and Afghanistan. And these aren't [22:34] even Persians. they really have no [22:36] qualms at all about about slaughtering [22:38] Persian citizens in the name of uh of of [22:42] Shiite Islam. So the once Trump stopped [22:46] and went to negotiations, we're still in [22:48] a negotiation phase. Even the kinetic [22:51] action that we saw over the last month [22:53] or so where the Americans, you know, [22:54] even had those 13 days or 14 days in a [22:57] row of bombing Iran, all of that is [22:59] still part of negotiation. What I mean [23:01] by that is, you know, some kinetic [23:04] action is negotiation and some of it is [23:06] actual war. What do I mean? If when when [23:09] the Americans have been attacking Iran [23:11] over the last few weeks, they're always [23:12] saying that it's in retaliation for [23:14] hitting ships in the straight of Hormuz, [23:16] right? Or or it it's it's in order to [23:19] prevent them from being able to disrupt [23:21] shipping. If that's why you're [23:23] attacking, then you're not trying to [23:26] defeat your enemy. you're just involved [23:27] in uh you're using military force as a [23:30] form of negotiation to achieve a [23:32] specific aim. If your if your goal is to [23:35] destroy your enemy, you don't justify a [23:37] bombing raid by saying it's retaliation [23:39] for something. You just go for the [23:41] victory. So that's why I say if you read [23:43] Trump's behavior and every time the [23:45] Iranians sense that things are getting [23:47] really bad with the attacks and they [23:48] want to slow Trump down, they say that [23:50] they're willing to make a deal. Trump [23:52] says, "Oh, look, now they're willing to [23:53] make a deal." he stops attacking and [23:55] then they and then they play more games. [23:58] So for four months for four months [24:00] they've been playing this game and we [24:02] are no closer to the to the straits of [24:04] Hormuz being opened and bombing another [24:06] bridge or another prochemical plant is [24:09] not they don't the Iranian regime right [24:12] now. Let's talk about where we are right [24:13] now. Let's just cut to the chase. Where [24:14] the Iranian regime is right now, they're [24:17] playing their cards perfectly. That [24:19] doesn't mean they're going to win, but [24:20] they are playing their under these dire [24:23] circumstances for them, they're playing [24:24] their cards perfectly. Their goal right [24:27] now, I believe, their goal is to harm [24:31] Trump in the midterms so that whatever [24:33] they because they know that whatever the [24:35] outcome, if Trump does poorly in the [24:37] midterms and loses one or both houses, [24:40] they will be in a better position [24:43] after the midterms. And therefore, that [24:44] is their current goal. And what that [24:46] means is that they will escalate both in [24:49] terms of rhetoric and in terms of [24:51] kinetic action. They are going to be [24:53] escalating between now and the midterms [24:56] and also taunting Trump and declaring [24:58] victory. As we just saw, one of their [25:00] leaders declared victory yesterday, [25:01] which might seem absurd to us, but from [25:03] their perspective, it actually makes [25:04] sense because to them, victory is [25:06] resilience and survival in the face of [25:08] of a of a powerful enemy. Uh that's how [25:10] in Shiite, this goes back to the origins [25:12] of Shiite Islam and how they define [25:14] victory. Uh but in their minds, if they [25:17] can if they can taunt Trump and make him [25:19] look foolish and make this whole war [25:22] look like a failure for him and make it [25:24] look like it's not making any progress, [25:26] the more of a failure it looks, the more [25:28] he's harmed in the midterms and then [25:30] they have a greater chance of surviving [25:33] because their real goal, and I laid this [25:35] out, I wrote a column 10 days before the [25:37] first attacks in February. On February [25:39] 18th, it was published where I said at [25:41] the time, because at the time Trump's [25:43] people were saying that they didn't [25:45] understand why Iran hadn't capitulated [25:46] yet with all the military buildup in the [25:48] Gulf. And I argued they're not going to [25:50] capitulate because their entire goal, [25:52] their goal is not to win militarily. [25:54] Their goal is to still be in power even [25:57] if they're battered and bruised and [25:58] broken in many ways. Even if they've [26:01] suffered who knows how much damage, they [26:04] I'm not going to say they don't care. Of [26:05] course, they care about that, but [26:07] they're that's not their primary [26:08] concern. Their primary concern is that [26:10] they still hold power when Trump leaves [26:13] office. And therefore, their entire [26:15] strategy right now is make Trump look [26:17] like a loser and also keep the Israelis [26:20] out of it. They know that the Israelis [26:21] have what it takes to actually uh set [26:24] the conditions for their people to take [26:26] back the regime. And it's it's very [26:28] simple to do. If Israel went in and [26:31] started bombing and started doing [26:32] decapitation strikes, bombing IRGC [26:35] checkpoints and had drones in the air, [26:38] because remember, Israel controls the [26:39] airspace over Iran at will. And if [26:41] Israel had helicopters and drones and [26:44] called the Iranian people out into the [26:46] streets and said that if any of them get [26:48] attacked, the the attackers will die on [26:51] the spot from the from the those Israeli [26:53] drones overhead. It would cause chaos [26:56] and it would actually and then what [26:57] you'd start seeing is that at the top [26:58] levels of the regime because the Iranian [27:01] regime is not just one group of people. [27:03] It's actually like mafia families that [27:05] run the regime together and once they [27:07] start turning on each other then the [27:09] regime will collapse. It's actually not [27:12] it's not it's not so far off. [27:14] >> Yeah. No, I I I get that. I I think for [27:17] many people watching this um and [27:19] listening to this um I mean they will [27:21] appreciate your explanation and again [27:23] you're you're much closer to it. Of [27:25] course from you know from here in you [27:27] know looking at everything that's [27:30] happening it does appear that there is [27:32] some sort of stalemate that's being [27:34] reached. And if we just change gears [27:35] really quickly it's the same kind of [27:37] stalemate some people speak about when [27:39] they look at the sort of Gaza peace plan [27:41] or what's next with Gaza. um you know [27:44] Trump again triumphantly uh sort of [27:48] announced that you know he's got this [27:49] 15point uh sort of plan road map this [27:52] was on the 31st of July he was telling [27:54] us he had this road map which would uh [27:57] have phased Israeli withdrawal alongside [28:01] Hamas disarmament and you know this is [28:05] going to lead to peace and there's a [28:06] there's a famous board of peace which [28:08] had our our previous prime minister uh [28:11] Tony Blair on it as well earlier Earlier [28:13] this month, Netanyahu rejected it, [28:16] saying that the the uh the IDF, the [28:18] Israeli Defense Force, will not withdraw [28:21] from Hamas. Um sorry, will not with [28:23] withdraw from Gaza until Hamas is [28:25] genuinely disarmed of any heavy or light [28:28] weapons. [28:29] And Hamas says, of course, it it's [28:31] committed to the road map, but it wants [28:33] Israel to withdraw first. Is this [28:36] another sort of stalemate we've reached [28:39] where really, you know, we're never [28:42] walking towards this 15 this 15point [28:44] road map and actually it's, you know, [28:46] we're just going to be here again in [28:48] years to come. [28:50] It's a great question. You know, there's [28:53] there's a common thread in Lebanon, [28:55] Gaza, and Iran, and that is that if [29:00] Israel was not held back by the [29:04] Americans, by the international [29:05] community, it could actually get us to a [29:07] point where we wouldn't be fighting any [29:09] of these forever wars anymore, you know. [29:11] So I want to make this kind of like [29:13] larger point that you know escalation [29:17] uh whether it's in Gaza or Lebanon or [29:19] Iran uh is all is is always viewed as [29:22] like wararm mongering and the and the [29:24] and the quote unquote peace camp that [29:26] always wants to find some negotiation [29:28] and reach a settlement you know with the [29:30] bad actors are you know they wear the [29:32] mantle of the ones who want peace. But [29:34] the truth is that those people who want [29:38] to tamp everything down and get and get [29:40] Israel to back off in all these fronts [29:42] and move to negotiations, they're the [29:45] forever war camp. They don't say they're [29:48] the forever war camp. They don't think [29:49] they are, but they are the forever war [29:51] camp because if you want to be fighting [29:52] wars forever in the Middle East, leaveah [29:55] and Lebanon, leave Kamas in Gaza, leave [29:57] the regime in Iran, and you'll be [29:59] fighting wars forever. So I just that's [30:01] just as a as a as a broader point. But [30:04] it's an important point about Gaza just [30:05] to set the record straight. So, you [30:07] know, it's wonderful. It's it's almost [30:09] like I told you what my latest columns [30:11] in the Jerusalem Post are and asked and [30:13] asked you to ask me about each one of [30:14] them because the last column I wrote the [30:17] last column I wrote that just came out a [30:19] few days ago was really about this this [30:21] 15-point road map that you talk about. [30:23] So, just for those who haven't been [30:25] following, back in September 2025, [30:28] almost a year ago now, uh the we went to [30:31] this ceasefire with Hamas, all the [30:33] hostages were released and it was all [30:34] built around what was called the 20 [30:36] point Gaza plan, the Trump plan for [30:38] Gaza. Now, officially and setting up the [30:41] board of peace and all of that. Now, [30:42] officially, this 15-point road map is [30:44] being described [30:46] as the phase two of that Gaza 20oint [30:51] plan. That's even how you described it [30:53] here. But what I laid out in my opinion [30:56] piece in the Jerusalem Post in my column [30:58] and I believe that this underlies why [31:00] Prime Minister Netanyahu said absolutely [31:02] not. We don't accept this road map is [31:04] that this road map is not an [31:06] implementation of the 20point plan at [31:08] all. In fact, it undoes the 20point plan [31:11] under the guise of implementing it. It's [31:13] a very it's a very deceptive document [31:16] because it sounds like it's complying, [31:18] but what it's doing, one of the main [31:20] things it does is it changes the [31:22] sequencing of a number of clauses and [31:25] then it's it it slightly redefineses a [31:28] number of causes slightly on the surface [31:29] which actually you put everything [31:31] together and it actually undoes the [31:33] plan. Let me explain. In the new [31:34] 15-point plan, [31:37] um, like for example, in the original [31:39] 20point plan, uh, Kamas's weapons had to [31:42] be, uh, put permanently beyond use and [31:46] their and their infrastructure, their [31:48] tunnels and all of their military [31:50] infrastructure had to be destroyed and [31:52] not rebuilt. Permanently beyond use is [31:55] the language. And in the new 15-point [31:58] plan, it says that Kamas's weapons will [32:00] be stored will be stored taken from them [32:04] and stored somewhere in Gaza. [32:07] Hello. Stored in Gaza. Or I'll give you [32:09] another example. In the original 15 in [32:11] the original 20point plan uh after kamas [32:14] is completely removed there's supposed [32:16] to be this new uh security force called [32:18] the international stabilization force [32:21] which is made up of of uh of of [32:24] personnel from various countries that [32:26] are willing to give personnel who are [32:28] closely coordinated with Israel and [32:30] they're supposed to become and this is [32:32] the language in the 20point plan the [32:34] long-term internal security solution for [32:38] Gaza. Okay, that's what it's that's how [32:39] it's described. In other words, what it [32:41] describes is you have this new force [32:42] coming in to replace Hamas. And it's not [32:45] Hamas guys. It's people from other other [32:47] countries from other Arab countries, but [32:49] they're coordinating with Israel and [32:51] they're handling the internal security [32:52] in a post kamas Gaza. According to the [32:55] 15point plan, this new road map, the [32:58] international stabilization force still [33:00] has the same name, but its role is [33:02] totally different. Its role here is to [33:04] serve as a buffer between the Israeli [33:07] forces and the kamas and the and the [33:10] Palestinian controlled areas which is [33:12] basically where kamas is to keep the [33:15] peace between them like a UN [33:16] peacekeeping force type of thing and [33:18] that they're not it specifically says [33:20] that they will serve no internal [33:22] security role in the populated areas and [33:26] it calls for a Palestinian police force [33:29] to come in which is basically like [33:31] Palestinian Authority 2.0 and it even [33:33] has provisions in there for vetting [33:35] former kamas members to become part of [33:38] this police force. So there what you [33:40] have is instead of Israel having [33:42] coordination with the internal security [33:44] where they can continue to deal with you [33:46] know guerilla terrorist threats that [33:48] will still be there after kamas is [33:49] removed which was the whole idea behind [33:51] it. Now it serves just the opposite [33:54] purpose. It serves as a peacekeeping [33:56] force preventing Israel from having a [33:58] free hand to deal with terrorists. And I [34:00] can go on and on, but suffice it to say, [34:02] I I advise everyone, this is a, you [34:04] know, shameless plug, go to jpost.com or [34:07] just search the Jerusalem Post and my [34:09] name. I'm the only person in the world [34:11] named Pesak Wiki. I'm really easy to [34:13] find. Just type in my name and Jerusalem [34:15] Post. My author page will come up and [34:17] you can see and the most recent uh [34:19] column that I wrote uh on and you'll [34:22] write it's right there on my author page [34:23] and you'll find the other one there as [34:24] well. the other I I've I've referred to [34:26] a number of columns I wrote on this uh [34:28] conversation already, but go look at my [34:30] most recent column about the about [34:32] what's happening in Gaza and I go [34:34] through chapter and verse how this [34:36] 15-point road map is actually kind of a [34:39] bait and switch. It's not what Israel [34:41] agreed to. [34:42] >> Uh and again point [34:46] could deal with all these threats. [34:48] Yeah, there's well there's an there's [34:50] there's obviously interesting [34:50] developments happening which I think [34:53] puts all it's putting this under renewed [34:55] spotlight and that is of course there's [34:56] an election coming up in Israel. Um and [34:59] again many people may not know this but [35:01] 27th of October 2026 there is going to [35:05] be an election. Sorry. Yeah. Yes. Is [35:07] that is that is election day? Am I [35:08] correct? [35:11] >> Yes there is. There is. [35:12] >> Yeah. So there's going to be election. [35:14] Um and [35:16] people are thinking, you know, does [35:22] is one of the reasons why we're seeing [35:24] what some are calling grandstanding by [35:26] Netanyahu, namely the U Israel backs [35:29] down from any sort of plan. Is that [35:31] election nearing? Is it him [35:33] grandstanding? because he knows he's got [35:35] this sort of fragile coalition that's [35:37] been held together by what seems like a [35:39] paper like like a string or something [35:42] and and so he's desperate to come back. [35:44] Folks are saying are we now post [35:45] Netanyahu? What's going to happen? I [35:48] mean obviously it's always hard to [35:49] predict an election but from what you're [35:51] seeing what's going on because the [35:54] critical numbers don't show that [35:57] Netanyahu has the largest party block. [36:00] um all the pollands is saying he's [36:02] coalition is at risk of losing its [36:04] majority. [36:06] um you know what do you think happens [36:08] and I guess for me and from the western [36:11] lens what I'm really interested in is if [36:13] Netanyahu goes does it reset the clock [36:17] somewhat and that now something's [36:19] fundamentally shifted in this whole [36:20] calculation or do we go back to you know [36:24] to your point this place where you know [36:26] we're we're arguing about who's going to [36:27] verify Hamas leaving their their uh get [36:31] rid of their guns and and who's going to [36:33] back out first and who's going withdraw [36:34] like do [36:35] Are we just going to have a different [36:37] leader but the same issue or do you [36:39] think something fundamentally shifts if [36:42] we have a new leader in Israel? [36:46] >> Well, whether or not Netanyahu is prime [36:49] minister after these elections, I don't [36:51] know. But the issues that will determine [36:55] that have nothing to do with any [36:58] difference in uh in policy between [37:02] Netanyahu and his opponents about how to [37:04] handle Gaza, how to handle Lebanon, how [37:06] to handle Iran, any of that. I know for [37:08] people outside of Israel, those are [37:10] those are the only issues you think [37:11] about when you think about Israel. You [37:13] think that those you know a lot of [37:14] people outside of Israel, it's like the [37:15] the only political issues relating to [37:17] Israel they know are the various wars [37:18] that we're fighting. But the issues that [37:20] are at stake that are leading people to [37:24] the decision of who to vote for, believe [37:26] it or not, right now have nothing to do [37:28] with security and foreign affairs. Not [37:30] because security and foreign affairs [37:32] aren't important. There's they are still [37:34] the number one most important issue in [37:36] Israel, as they always are. But the [37:38] issue is right now there is pretty much [37:41] wall-to-wall consensus left to right [37:44] about how to handle these situations. [37:45] Let me give you an example. Uh it was [37:47] about a month ago, maybe a little bit [37:48] more. You might remember this where the [37:50] Israelis were taking a very heavy hand [37:53] against and they said that any attack [37:55] frombalah is going to bring an attack on [37:58] Beirut on the Dakia neighborhood where [38:00] Kizbala has its headquarters and Trump [38:03] didn't like that heavy hand. It was [38:04] disrupt it was escalating things in [38:05] Lebanon and that wasn't serving him well [38:07] in his negotiations with Iran. Not that [38:09] anything would have served him well in [38:10] those, but that's a separate issue. Um [38:13] and he he told Netanyahu to back off. He [38:16] called out Netanyahu very harshly and [38:18] the Israelis kind of modified their [38:20] their policy there. Now, when that [38:22] happened in Israel domestically, the [38:26] criticism that Netanyahu got from the [38:29] far right, the most far-right parties, [38:32] Ben [38:34] all the way to his left-wing opponent in [38:37] this election, Eisenhot, all the way [38:39] across the board was identical. I mean, [38:43] the nature of the criticism was you have [38:46] to, you know, if it's an Israel's uh you [38:49] have to take a heavier hand against you [38:51] can't back down because Trump tells you [38:53] to. Meaning the left-wing criticism of [38:55] Netanyahu wasn't that we should never [38:58] have been bombing Beirut in the first [39:00] place, that we should be moving to [39:02] negotiations or anything like that. It [39:03] was identical. But this is just one [39:05] example. Uh I'll just say it plainly. [39:08] There is virtually wall-to-wall [39:10] consensus on security and foreign [39:12] affairs issues on kamas, Iran, uh, right [39:15] now. The issues that are at stake, and [39:18] they're big ones are the are a number of [39:20] different domestic issues that are of [39:21] really not a whole lot of interest to [39:23] people outside of Israel. So, it's not [39:26] grandstanding at all. When when [39:27] Netanyahu rejected this 15point uh [39:29] framework, everyone in Israel also [39:31] rejected it. Everyone who saw it, I [39:33] mean, I wrote a column about it to [39:35] explain, but everyone knew that it was a [39:37] terrible deal. then it needed to be [39:38] rejected. Had had Netanyahu accepted it, [39:40] he would have been criticized from the [39:42] left and the right identically. [39:44] >> Well well well the the reason I ask as [39:47] well is because based on my research, [39:50] the main challenger is a man named [39:53] Gaddycott. Elsenot I don't know if [39:55] that's how you pronounce his name. [39:57] Eisenot [39:58] >> who's a former IDF chief. He's a [40:00] general. Um and so you know again just a [40:05] naked viewing of this kind of re kind of [40:07] would say okay well if he's if he's a [40:09] general he's going to probably be very [40:10] tough have a very tough stance. Um and [40:13] so it's this is this Netanyahu's way of [40:15] saying listen I'm also you know you know [40:19] Israel first very very tough stance [40:21] we're going to stand up to America we're [40:23] not going to be sort of the junior [40:25] partner here etc. you know, it could be [40:27] him doing that because again I asked the [40:29] question if he if he ends up winning and [40:31] his party I mean based on all the [40:33] polling are running sort of level. Um [40:36] does anything shift or do we just have [40:38] just a different leader now? [40:40] >> No. Uh general does not equal tough or [40:43] hawkish? I know that might sound [40:44] strange. [40:45] >> I know but it's just the way people [40:46] think. Right. [40:46] >> No, I'll tell No, explain. especially in [40:48] Israel where the senior staff of the IDF [40:51] for the for decades has been dominated [40:54] by the left and it's got and you know so [40:58] like believe it or not like the dovish [41:00] peace camp is often led by former [41:02] generals like Yutsak Rabin who shook [41:04] Yaser Arafat's hand on the white house [41:06] lawn in 1993 and started the whole Oslo [41:09] peace process was also a former general [41:10] a former chief of staff I mean this is a [41:13] uh the in fact Gaddy Eisenot is a man of [41:16] the [41:17] And what's happening now in terms of in [41:21] terms of how people view former military [41:23] people has to do with what happened on [41:25] October 7th. Because when October 7th [41:27] happened, it wasn't just a terrible [41:28] attack. It was also a a when people [41:31] wonder about how it happened like the [41:34] Israelis didn't have intelligence or [41:35] they weren't ready. It has to do with [41:37] the whole mil the whole defense doctrine [41:40] that Israel had been working with for [41:42] decades. And the defense doctrine [41:44] they've been working with was based on [41:46] the idea that our enemies can be bought [41:49] off and possibly appeased and we could [41:51] assess their motives. And and there were [41:54] all kinds of there was all kinds of [41:56] thinking in there that led to these [41:58] errors. And one of the big changes, [42:01] maybe the biggest change in Israel's [42:02] defense doctrine since October 7th is [42:04] that we, and this is not just my [42:06] analysis, this has been stated, is that [42:09] Israel no longer assesses threats based [42:12] on u bas based on an evaluation of our [42:17] enemy's motives or are they deterred or [42:20] you know are they incentivized uh you [42:22] know to you know to you know to attack [42:23] us or not attack us. It's based now we [42:27] we assess uh we evaluate uh uh threats [42:31] solely based on capability. If we see [42:33] capabilities, we attack them. And that's [42:36] why Israel is is is driving a much [42:38] harder bargain in all of these [42:39] negotiations now, like with Gaza and [42:41] Lebanon, saying, "Listen, we're not [42:42] budging until we see actual disarmament [42:44] because we're not going to trust any [42:46] assessment of motive or any any or any [42:50] verbal commitments anymore." Eisenot is [42:52] from that old guard of the military and [42:55] uh you know so he's part of that he's [42:57] actually part of the brain trust that [43:00] that uh that was that old way of [43:03] thinking. Now he's trying to get away [43:04] from that now and trying to be a little [43:06] bit tougher. But being a military man [43:08] does not equal uh being viewed as tough [43:11] on defense and security. In fact, [43:12] there's a there's on the right wing in [43:14] Israel, there's a there's a big distrust [43:16] of generals because the top brass of the [43:19] IDF has been so dominated by the left. [43:22] >> H well, here's the one thing I would [43:24] love us to end on and this is this is um [43:28] and and that was very helpful because, [43:30] you know, it really does help us frame [43:32] and get what's happening. It's it's [43:33] interesting from the outside looking in [43:35] you you I mean you are right in the [43:36] charge which is from here it just it [43:39] appears every single day Israelis are [43:41] waking up and talking about Iran and of [43:43] course that's not how it works. All my [43:45] trips reveal that you know there's you [43:46] know people are concerned about plumbing [43:48] they're you know who's taking out the [43:49] bins and and all the normal things you [43:51] know welfare all the things that [43:53] dominates sort of um people's daily [43:55] lives they're often thinking about as [43:57] well. I guess my my question really is [44:00] about the f and this might seem like a [44:02] bit of an odd way to end, but for me it [44:05] is something I was considering and [44:07] wondering which is that you know at some [44:09] stage I think between October the 7th [44:11] and now [44:13] the the powers that be in Israel um the [44:16] intelligencia media class you know [44:19] politicians whatever you want to call [44:20] them the educated elite [44:23] maybe all decided that you know what [44:26] we're going to focus [44:27] solely on our security. That's all like [44:30] like at some stage I would say it felt [44:33] as though those in leadership in Israel [44:36] said we are no longer playing for the [44:38] for the court of public opinion. We are [44:41] just going to focus on our security and [44:43] do what we think is right. Now it's come [44:44] at a massive cost. One of which being I [44:48] think tourism in Israel has died. Um, [44:51] you know, Israel's people say all the [44:54] time has lost the the the war of public [44:57] opinion and and you know, unfavorability [45:00] ratings are skyhigh and all these [45:02] different things. [45:04] Do do you see a world in which that [45:05] changes or do you think this is just a [45:07] new normal and Israel is going to have [45:09] to sort of go at it alone in the world? [45:12] Um, I I would I would love you to [45:14] reflect on whether you think that [45:16] changes at any stage. [45:19] H this is a this is a big question and [45:22] you're absolutely right that Israelis [45:24] after October 7th um you know really [45:29] the the extent to which Israelis care [45:31] what the world thinks of us has uh [45:34] diminished greatly um and and it's one [45:37] of the I it could be an unintended [45:40] consequence of the people who are [45:42] attacking Israel all the time with all [45:44] kinds of distortions and lies is that it [45:46] doesn't make Israelis feel bad or feel [45:48] like we need to change. It just makes us [45:50] realize that the world doesn't know what [45:52] on earth is going on and it makes us [45:54] care even less what people think. I'm [45:56] not necessarily I'm not I'm not [45:58] justifying. I'm explaining there's a [46:00] difference. Okay? Because I don't think [46:01] this is a good place to be. I don't [46:03] think it's healthy for us. Uh I think we [46:05] do need to to pay you know but I get [46:07] this all the time in conversations with [46:09] people as someone who is uh you know [46:12] talking to people outside of Israel all [46:14] the time for a living. That's what I do [46:16] is communicate to people about what's [46:17] going on in Israel. I recog, you know, I [46:20] often talk to people in Israel. I'm [46:21] like, you know, and I tell them about [46:23] how bad it is in the what we'll call the [46:25] information war about Israel. And I [46:27] think that there are some things that [46:28] Israel could have done differently and [46:29] should be doing differently in order to [46:31] turn this around. But you got to [46:33] remember that the Jewish people have [46:36] spent thousands of years being hated, [46:39] being lied about, being attacked with [46:42] all sorts of blood liels that were false [46:45] um in many different countries for [46:47] centuries. And this is part of our [46:49] collective memory. It's part of our DNA. [46:52] So there's there's this kind of thick [46:56] skin that Israelis have where it's like, [47:00] yeah, it would be nice if the world, you [47:02] know, wasn't so critical of us, but it's [47:04] not really a priority to fix it. That's [47:07] not necessarily good. Again, it hurts us [47:08] diplomatically. It hurts us in all kinds [47:10] of ways. But I'm just I'm just telling [47:12] you where the sentiment of the Israeli [47:14] people is, is that at bottom, a lot of [47:17] Israelis just actually couldn't care [47:19] less what anyone thinks of us. Um, so is [47:23] it going to change anytime soon? Is it [47:24] going to get better? I don't know. Uh, I [47:27] think the only way it it could really [47:29] get better is if Israel is if all of [47:32] these conflicts end and it's just not in [47:34] the headlines as much anymore. That [47:36] could that could make it better. Uh, but [47:40] also listen, people, we need people like [47:42] you who've been to Israel, who've who [47:45] visited and have and have realized what [47:47] Israel is versus what it was perceived [47:48] as. And I remember talking to you about [47:50] this uh when you when you first came to [47:51] Israel about how the perception is so [47:54] different from the reality. We need more [47:55] and more people like you to talk about [47:57] what Israel actually is. I'm not saying [47:59] to become an advocate, but just to share [48:01] the truth of what you see when you're [48:02] here for people to visit. Uh Israel is a [48:05] beautiful country. It's safe. I know [48:07] that sounds crazy. You think we're in a [48:08] war zone. It's not. It's a very safe [48:09] country. Uh and uh but but I don't I [48:13] don't it's not like these the Israeli [48:14] people do not prioritize [48:17] winning over public opinion around the [48:19] world. [48:20] >> Yeah. and and you know I even on that I [48:23] you know I'm I had a a guest here not [48:26] too long ago on the podcast and we were [48:28] going back and forth on sort of you know [48:31] why is it that the and this is you know [48:32] I had a conversation it may be out or [48:34] not be out yet with Melanie Phillips uh [48:36] where we spoke about this in great [48:38] detail which is you know uh where you're [48:41] speaking about kind of Israeli pride at [48:43] probably rocket sort of skyhigh right [48:46] now um British pride is like in the [48:48] gutter young people for some and hate [48:50] this country. Um, grow up sort of with [48:53] odd disdain about the country. Some of [48:55] it is founded on, you know, the past or [48:58] or what they think Britain has done and [48:59] not done around the world. I mean, it's [49:01] very odd, but but like we were going [49:03] back and forth and saying, well, [49:07] yes, people feel differently about their [49:09] countries, but what's the one unifying [49:11] factor between the West? Like what makes [49:14] Western countries and honestly I think [49:16] it's democracy. I like democracies. And [49:18] so for me, even the fact that in Israel [49:22] there is genuine freedom of press where [49:26] someone like me can critique the [49:27] government, where we can have a robust [49:28] conversation, where someone like [49:29] Netanyahu can go to, you know, uh to, [49:33] you know, you know, be tested and you [49:35] know, at the ballot box and and and and [49:37] really folks can let him know what they [49:39] think. Like that for me is is success. [49:41] Like we we want more of that. So on a [49:43] very basic level, whilst we in the UK [49:47] may feel very differently about our [49:48] government to how maybe young Israelis [49:51] feel, ultimately there is a thread that [49:54] connects us because we are democracies [49:55] and we believe in democracies and and I [49:57] I would love to see more the democracies [49:59] and less theocracies around the world. [50:01] So there there's at least that point of [50:03] agreement and uh yeah I'm always [50:05] thinking about how things change and and [50:07] I think um for many of us who work in [50:10] the media you know you look around and [50:12] you just kind of go you know does there [50:15] come a time where there's you know cues [50:18] and and demands for people to go to [50:20] Israel to do kind of all the you know [50:22] it's funny before October 7th I used to [50:24] get these these adverts on the on the on [50:27] YouTube all the time about visit Tel [50:29] Aviv come and visit Tel Aviv like sort [50:31] these marketing, you know, tourism, uh, [50:34] uh, you know, it's never been a better [50:36] time to visit Tel Aviv and, you know, [50:38] and just sandy beaches and all this [50:40] stuff. And of course, it it's totally [50:42] stopped. And part of me wonders what [50:43] happens to the hotels? What happens to [50:45] the the tourism industry that was such a [50:48] key part of of Israel's sort of um, I [50:50] imagine GDP and and unique offer around [50:53] the world. I don't know what happens to [50:55] that whole sector really. [50:59] >> Well, it's coming back. But but you [51:01] know, Israel's economy is booming. But [51:02] yeah, you raised good points. You raised [51:04] good points. [51:05] >> Yeah. I was going to give you the final [51:06] words and just say, you know, I mean, [51:08] we're going to talk about some other [51:09] stuff, but we ran out of time. So, you [51:11] know, final word to you on just sort of [51:13] what your hope is follow, you know, with [51:15] this upcoming election. Um, you know, [51:18] are you allowed to share who you're [51:20] rooting for, maybe who you are you [51:21] campaigning for anybody? I mean, what a [51:24] or or are you a bipartisan actor? He was [51:26] just sort of like, you know, [51:27] >> you know, I I'm I'm not campaigning for [51:29] anyone. And uh I have voted for Prime [51:32] Minister Netanyahu numerous times in the [51:34] past. I did not vote for him in the last [51:36] election. Um I uh I don't know which [51:39] party I'm going to vote for yet. I'm [51:40] still working on that. Uh but look, [51:43] Israel is a right-wing country. We have [51:46] not had a left-wing prime minister in [51:48] over 20 years. [51:50] um the population has simply shifted to [51:53] the right in a dram in a dramatic way [51:57] and that is largely the result of the [51:59] failure of all the peace processes and [52:01] the and as a result of the inifadas and [52:03] kamas and all that. Um so I I [52:08] I'm not looking forward to all of the [52:11] internal fighting and unrest that's [52:13] going to take place domestically through [52:14] this election campaign and to forming a [52:16] government. But in the end of the day, [52:19] Israel is in a very strong position [52:20] right now globally. Uh despite what you [52:23] know what's happening on Tik Tok and and [52:25] and X, Israel's economy is booming. [52:28] Israel has more alliances and defense [52:30] and strategic alliances, defense packs [52:32] with more countries than it's ever had. [52:35] Uh and uh and we also have the highest [52:38] birth rate of OECD countries. Uh and we [52:41] have a young vibrant population. We are [52:44] going to be fine. you know, the the [52:46] guardian of Israel neither slumbers nor [52:48] sleeps and he has watched over us and we [52:50] are going to be just fine. But in this [52:52] election campaign, it's going to get [52:54] nasty. Um, and uh, I just hope I believe [52:57] that right now, Prime Minister [52:59] Nathaniel, he has a lot of flaws and we [53:00] could do a whole episode where I could [53:02] share with you my, you know, my thoughts [53:03] on him and I have some praise for him, a [53:05] lot of praise for him, but I also have a [53:06] lot of criticism for him. But I think [53:08] that right now he's the best person to [53:10] lead us and I hope that he stays in [53:11] power. [53:12] >> Very good. Thanks so much, Robert Pesak. [53:14] This was great. Um, and I'm I'm wishing [53:16] you and your family safety and and well [53:18] and uh looking forward to engaging again [53:20] in the future.
