Transcript [00:26] Heat. [00:43] Hey, Heat. [01:02] Hi, good day. Welcome to ME live. I'm [01:05] your host Karim. As you can see, Matilda [01:07] is not here today, so I'm covering for [01:08] her. And in studio with me, I have Iran. [01:11] >> Hello. [01:12] >> Nice to meet you, Imran. I mean, I see [01:14] you every day. And Peter, [01:15] >> it's lovely to be here. Thank you. [01:17] >> It's good to have both of you here. Uh [01:18] you guys are both here because you've [01:20] both been writing extensively appearing [01:21] in interviews to discuss uh the UK's uh [01:25] you know li limited sanctions uh on [01:27] Israel and the on on on on its [01:29] settlements in the West Bank. Um but [01:31] we're also going to be discussing uh a [01:33] few things that have been creating some [01:35] chatter on on social media. Uh Ed [01:37] Sheeran and Pink dropping uh MLmore uh [01:40] from their tour in the US. Um, and we're [01:42] also going to be discussing there's [01:44] conflicting ideas from the from the or [01:47] response from the pro Palestinian camp [01:49] on Yuval Abraham and Rachel Saw getting [01:52] a very long 25minut standing ovation [01:54] from their from the filming of their [01:56] movie Naza a documentary which is 20 25 [01:59] got a 25minut standing ovation but we'll [02:01] do all of that after we play this music [02:03] that we usually play on the live show. [02:31] Hi, welcome back. Uh so the bulk of our [02:33] discussion as I mentioned is going to be [02:35] about you know whether the US and the UK [02:37] it's it's a real rift. It's the start of [02:39] a rift and it's not been a rift that [02:41] that started just with the sanctions. [02:42] It's been occurring in many ways for a [02:45] long time now. Um but especially since [02:47] since the you know Israel or the US [02:49] depending on how you want to interpret [02:51] it kind of dragged the US into this war [02:53] with Iran and Britain and NATO and many [02:55] other partners refused to sort of [02:56] participate. But before we get there, [02:59] um, in the last 24 hours or so, if [03:01] you've been seeing this or you've been [03:02] on social media, and the same with both [03:04] of you, um, we've seen quite a a very [03:07] large significant response to to [03:08] McLemore being dropped by Ed Sheeran and [03:11] Pink on their tour. Now, if most of us [03:13] are probably familiar with McLemore and [03:14] what he's been doing, um, he, you know, [03:16] he's since October 7th, he's been [03:18] hosting many concerts. Uh, he's made a [03:20] few songs about the tragedy unfolding in [03:22] Gaza. Most of his concerts involve uh [03:25] you know lots of chanting of free [03:27] Palestine, the Palestinian flag, all [03:30] that kind of stuff. So he's been [03:31] dropped. Ed Sheeran asked him to [03:33] actually not be on the tour. Um and I [03:35] think there's there's a lot of corporate [03:37] pressure that's come that he and Ed [03:38] Sharon and Pink have come under. [03:40] McLemore broke the news on social media [03:42] by saying uh I'm not sure how to start [03:44] this. So I'm going to speak from the [03:46] heart and share the truth. Ed Sharon and [03:48] his team have made the decision to [03:49] remove me from the loop tour. Uh but [03:52] before I get into it, I want to say [03:53] something that should be obvious in this [03:54] moment. I think it matters. I'm not a [03:56] victim. Ed Sharon is not a victim. Pink [03:58] is not a victim. We have careers, money, [04:00] opportunities, safety, and audiences [04:02] around the world. Whatever consequences [04:04] any of us face or what we say, we get to [04:06] go home to our families. Uh standard [04:09] McLemore kind, you know, what he's [04:10] become known for, always centering [04:12] Palestinians. What's your response to [04:14] this and what do you think it says about [04:16] the broader movement? I'll start with [04:17] you, Peter, uh around trying to, you [04:19] know, censor voices that have been [04:21] saying free Palestine. [04:23] >> Well, yes, it doesn't say a lot about [04:24] free speech, does it in in the United [04:27] States? Um, and that's a very serious [04:30] matter. Um, I think it casts Ed Shiran [04:34] in a poor light. I I think you should [04:36] stick with your your mates [04:40] um and not resist this. If he's if [04:42] McLemore is they ask for McLemore to go [04:45] you he Sharon should have gone too. On a [04:48] personal note I've never thought [04:50] anything much of the very bland songs [04:54] which Sharon produces. [04:58] >> Well I think it's another one of these [05:00] watershed moments in celebrity culture [05:02] and we've seen gradually the mood change [05:05] over time. So now Ed Sheran is taking a [05:08] huge hit to his popularity and also his [05:11] credibility because he's painted himself [05:13] as a sort of progressive artist even [05:15] though if he's generally not explicitly [05:18] political but again he has been uh in [05:20] the past so people are now accusing him [05:22] of hypocrisy uh and also I'm afraid of [05:26] cowardice. It's very good for McLemore [05:29] uh because he's been consistently pro [05:31] Palestine and is continuing with that [05:33] and he didn't accept to be silent and to [05:36] go along with the shows without saying [05:38] free Palestine. Um and so he deserves [05:41] quite a bit of credit for that. But I [05:42] think this will be remembered as another [05:44] one of these watershed moments when uh [05:46] people are really outraged about the [05:49] censorship really corporate censorship [05:51] of pro Palestine voices. I think this [05:53] sort of thing can't hold. you know, it's [05:55] Ed Sheeran who's going to be the loser [05:57] of this whole affair. [05:58] >> Um, I mean, you say you say interesting [06:00] thing because I mean, people like to [06:02] presume and Ed Sheeran likes to also [06:04] give project that he's he's sort of [06:05] neutral and apolitical person, but he [06:07] has said things about Ukraine. I mean, [06:09] he has also said things about the Labour [06:10] Party. Um, and so he showed respon he [06:13] showed you know a lot of care there for [06:15] politics, but he hasn't shown it here. [06:17] Uh, McMore was quite gracious. He also [06:19] said in part of his post he said, "Eddie [06:21] is my friend. I've known him for 13 [06:23] years. We've shared late nights, studio [06:24] sessions, and stages. He has the [06:26] infectious magic about him that I've [06:27] grown to love. I consider him a brother. [06:29] And because of that, we've had some [06:31] difficult conversations this past week. [06:32] The type of talks rooted in love and [06:34] respect for one another that still end [06:36] in the place of fundamental [06:38] disagreement. Nothing I'm writing is out [06:39] of spite or because I want to tear down [06:41] his character. But, as I told Ed [06:43] multiple times on the phone, our [06:44] friendship can't change my [06:45] responsibility to tell the truth about [06:46] what happened. Like I said, he's being [06:48] gracious, but I'm guessing he's allowing [06:51] the audience to decide and and I mean, [06:53] from my timeline, they what what you've [06:55] said is correct. They are deciding and [06:57] quite decisively. Um uh Peter, [07:02] for how long can this can this is this [07:05] sustainable where corporations try to [07:07] shut down these these very clear, you [07:10] know, public sentiment around these [07:11] issues? [07:12] >> I don't really think it's going to g. I [07:16] think it's very strong. I it's it's been [07:20] going on all along and that the [07:23] corporations come under all kinds of [07:24] pressure themselves of course from [07:26] shareholders and so on and so I I don't [07:30] think this I rather disagree with you [07:32] that it will be a watershed moment. [07:35] >> I think that that is how it is now. But [07:38] on on the other hand, we have seen some [07:41] very big celebrities like Mark Ruffalo [07:44] showing some agency in taking strong [07:46] stances and uh they haven't been dropped [07:49] because their brand is so big and and [07:51] one really thinks that Ed Sheeran has a [07:53] huge brand, a huge following and he [07:56] could have actually become influential [07:58] if he'd taken more of a stand. And here [08:01] it sounds like he said to McLemore that, [08:03] you know, this is uh saying free [08:04] Palestine can be offensive to people. It [08:07] sounds like a pretty weak stance. We [08:09] don't know everything that's gone on [08:11] behind the scenes. Uh but I suspect that [08:14] Ed Sheeran, like some of some other [08:16] celebrities, very big celebrities, [08:18] Benedict Cumberbatch for example, who [08:20] have been braver. I think Ed Sheeran [08:22] potentially could have uh done more like [08:25] McLemore has done. I think I think I [08:27] mean the reason why I'm bringing it as [08:28] part of the show. It's not just because [08:30] it's happening now, but because so I [08:32] mean we're going to be discussing Ed [08:33] Milliband quite soon and we'll get there [08:35] and we still going to return to the [08:36] subject before we get there. But he's [08:38] been quite consistent on being more left [08:41] and more progressive on the Palestine [08:42] issue compared to other Labour [08:44] politicians or British politicians now [08:46] for more than a decade like for almost [08:48] 15 years. So it's not a new thing. But [08:50] but him saying that yes, we should put [08:53] sanctions on on settlement activity and [08:55] the corporations that do businesses with [08:57] settlements etc. It is something that 80 [08:59] 86% of Britain support at the time. [09:01] Right now that that shifted obviously [09:03] since October 7th with the atrocities [09:05] I'm sure I mean the polling I can't say [09:08] distinctively what the what the polling [09:09] was on this 5 years ago but I'm pretty [09:11] sure it was nowhere close to 86%. Right. [09:13] So the public sentiment is changing um [09:16] and and in the US for the first time you [09:18] know public sentiment more people [09:20] identify with or prefer or you know [09:23] would support Palestine over Israel and [09:24] this has been a poll that's now you know [09:26] it go dates back to like 14 or 15 months [09:28] and it's only been going up and up and [09:29] up and this is across the political [09:31] spectrum. So things are changing. Um but [09:34] I do I I actually tend to agree with [09:36] you. I think the tour is going to be a [09:38] sellout. It's going to be a commercial [09:40] success. Ed Sharon and Pink will [09:42] continue selling more records. [09:44] >> But there is what is becoming clear is [09:48] that there's this movement now. It's [09:49] almost a cult movement which is against [09:51] them. [09:52] >> Um and I think that's that's maybe that [09:55] can can become something. [09:56] >> Well, I think you you both may be right, [09:59] but then on the other hand, think about [10:00] 20 years from now, what did you do [10:02] during the Gaza genocide? Oh, I I [10:05] dropped my mate from my shows because he [10:07] said free pass. you know looking back uh [10:11] history I don't think will judge Ed [10:13] Sheeran very kindly but also I suspect [10:16] the corporations will be compelled to [10:19] follow the public just as uh governments [10:21] have followed the public um as well in [10:24] in the western world and we've seen that [10:26] in Britain for sure public opinion has [10:28] definitely pressured governments [10:30] including this Labor government uh to [10:32] take a different route I I think the [10:34] same thing will happen in in the world [10:36] of popular culture indeed it's already [10:38] happening [10:39] uh I mean it is happening at the same [10:40] time there have been many artists many [10:42] sports people who I mean the the South [10:45] African and and and Israel comparisons [10:48] also always brought up and it will be [10:50] brought up again later later in the [10:51] competition I mean later not in this [10:53] competition but in the show but I mean [10:56] there have been sports people great [10:58] cricketers great artists who performed [11:00] in South Africa in the 80s and the 70s [11:03] and it was a blip and they still went on [11:05] to sell many records and play in the [11:06] international teams [11:08] Um so I mean it's and and that was [11:10] >> I wrote a book about cricket sport in a [11:12] part time basela who was of course a as [11:16] they called in there colored in South [11:18] Africa couldn't play first proper [11:20] cricket by say first class cricket [11:22] >> had to come to England and do you know I [11:25] still think the players England players [11:27] who collaborated with the South African [11:30] took went on these rebel tours where [11:31] they were very well paid I mean they [11:34] were welcomed back by the British [11:36] establishment they went on to play for [11:38] England again. But it's I think it's [11:41] always a bleak thing and I you never [11:44] forget the fate of the West Indian [11:46] players who took the uh South African [11:49] money [11:50] >> and when they went back to Barbados or [11:53] Jamaica they were absolutely ostracized [11:55] and died sort of. [11:57] >> Absolutely. No, absolutely. Okay, this [11:59] brings us to the second sort of thing [12:00] that's creating a bit of chatter. Um so [12:03] just some context if if you haven't been [12:04] following it but you probably are aware [12:06] if you're seeing our show Yal Abraham is [12:08] a famous filmmaker documentarian um he [12:11] won Academy Award for No Other Land um [12:14] which was you know produced about two or [12:16] three years ago uh which was which [12:18] followed um settler activity in the West [12:21] Bank. Um he recently uh along with [12:23] Rachel saw they produced we haven't seen [12:26] seen the movie obviously because it's it [12:28] was only filmed it was only shown a few [12:30] days ago uh at the Vern Venice Film [12:32] Festival. It did receive a 25minut [12:34] ovation. Um what it is it's 24 [12:36] interviews anonymous interviews. The [12:39] identity of these Israeli uh sometimes [12:42] it's soldiers sometimes it's [12:43] intelligence officers are hidden. Um but [12:45] they basically are are are testifying [12:48] giving firsthand account to the awful [12:50] methods that were used to kill [12:53] civilians. Um in many ways from what [12:54] I've seen it's almost like you can [12:56] imagine the the technology they were [12:58] using Naza. It's almost like Google [13:00] Maps. When we go into Google Maps we [13:02] look at restaurant ratings and we look [13:03] at you know what people have said. This [13:05] was more something where you can hover [13:06] over a person's home uh or a block and [13:09] it will tell you if you take out that [13:10] target you're going to kill eight [13:11] people, four people, 200 people. Um [13:14] there's testimony that that's been put [13:16] out that says that you know at times the [13:18] instruction was given when they knew and [13:20] I think this is why it's it's it's a [13:22] it's a massive thing when they knew they [13:24] were going to kill up to 500 people and [13:25] and and yes they they they made that [13:27] choice deliberately it's which is [13:29] something the Israelis always say oh no [13:30] we don't know etc. 973 magazine wrote a [13:33] piece about this two years ago, but it [13:35] was based on anonymous testimony and you [13:37] didn't know, but this is much more [13:38] powerful because you're getting the, you [13:40] know, people on camera saying these um [13:44] terrible things. [13:45] >> Yeah. No, so I'm bringing this forth [13:47] because I'm not only to discuss, you [13:48] know, the the fact that this is great [13:50] testimony, but there has been a response [13:53] by some elements online by by people who [13:55] are, you know, pro Palestinian about the [13:57] fact that this is a kind of privilege. [13:59] It's kind of an Israeli privilege and [14:01] and there's some anger from some parts [14:03] or I mean I I don't share it but there's [14:05] some anger uh you know that that it's [14:07] almost like these two Israelis um have [14:10] profited off telling the the story of of [14:12] their colonialism. Even Dr. Buseta who's [14:15] widely respected um he has he didn't go [14:17] that far but what he did say he says [14:18] this is colonial grift you make money [14:20] from the slaughter and you make more [14:21] money from the spectacle of contrition [14:24] in both cases you eliminate the victim. [14:26] Um I can see the argument but I can also [14:29] see the other argument. Imran what's [14:30] what's your response to this kind of [14:32] chatter that you may have seen but if [14:34] you haven't then this specific thing [14:36] we've just spoken about. [14:37] >> Well I think it takes uh great courage [14:39] for Israelis in Israeli society to take [14:42] a dissenting view and and that has to be [14:45] recognized. I mean, the real [14:46] significance of this film is that um [14:49] it's exposing the horrors of of these [14:52] war crimes to the world and it's been [14:54] immensely successful uh and it's part of [14:58] a change in in public opinion and I [15:00] think that should be uh celebrated and [15:03] accepted and of course it's true uh that [15:06] Israeli filmmakers have a sort of [15:08] privilege obviously in Israel but also [15:10] on the world stage that Palestinian [15:12] filmmakers don't have uh and we should [15:15] certainly promote more Palestinian [15:17] films. But on the other hand, these [15:19] Israeli filmmakers are using their [15:22] privilege in the right way and I think [15:24] it would be a shame to discourage that. [15:27] >> Peter, your your response to all of [15:28] this. [15:29] >> Oh, abs. Absolutely. I agree with that. [15:32] Um and I think that the the scale of the [15:35] response is very interesting. I think [15:38] what it's showing uh the film generally [15:40] uh is that there is a realization [15:45] as does the Milliband announcement on [15:47] sanctions. The reaction to that is [15:50] showing us that educating people that [15:53] actually Israel is more divided [15:56] is more on the issue of of what's [15:58] happened in Gaza. It isn't like they're [16:00] all in favor. And it it also shows here [16:02] in Britain that the Jewish community is [16:05] often projected in the mainstream media [16:08] as being a sort of a single lot. But [16:11] actually when you looked at the the [16:13] reaction to Milliban's announcement, you [16:15] realize a lot of community [16:16] organizations, Yashad UK for instance, [16:20] uh which come out supporting Milliband [16:22] and the former Israeli prime minister [16:25] Peace Now all lot Zionist organizations [16:28] and individuals are siding with [16:30] Milliband and I think that is [16:33] educational for the British public who's [16:35] normally because normally the voices of [16:38] people like that are just hidden way. [16:41] >> Yeah. No, I mean I think I I completely [16:43] agree with both of you. Uh there is [16:45] definitely it's it's unfortunate that [16:47] there is a power behind voices, right? [16:49] That some voices are are heard more are [16:51] respected more unfortunately. Um you [16:53] know, but it's I mean just the [16:54] journalistic contribution is really [16:56] important. It's been we've covered this [16:58] a lot of the time over the last two [17:00] years as you mentioned plus 973 have [17:02] done so the same. Um but but having [17:04] testimony of of 24 people who are part [17:06] of the military whether it be [17:08] intelligence or officers some of them [17:10] very senior testifying to it putting on [17:12] the record has has a power um and I mean [17:15] it's interesting because the previous uh [17:18] you know the previous record holder in [17:19] terms of a standing ovation which is not [17:21] what's important I mean the standing [17:22] ovation is significant but it's not [17:24] what's important but it was the voice of [17:25] Hindra right now again it's a selected [17:29] story there there literally maybe [17:32] 100,000 Palestinians that have been [17:33] killed, 20,000 children at least, right? [17:35] But it but of course the story of a [17:37] six-year-old girl uh you know car [17:39] riddled by more than 300 bullets, her [17:41] entire family killed while she was in [17:43] the car has has resonance. And so it's [17:46] an easy story to kind of [17:48] >> gain gain, you know, sympathy from a [17:50] wider audience. Likewise, speaking to [17:53] the perpetrators of the killings, people [17:55] who have actually pushed the buttons, [17:57] knowing that they're going to kill two [17:59] or 300 people or seen it happen because [18:00] I haven't actually seen the documentary. [18:02] Um, it has a power and I think and I [18:05] think that's being lost. But at the same [18:06] time, I do I do empathize with the [18:09] frustration of of voices, indigenous [18:11] voices, Palestinian voices who saying, [18:13] "We've been saying this and when we say [18:14] it, you don't listen to us." Well, look, [18:16] I mean, no, the heroes, the the kind of [18:19] the testimony given by the Palestinian [18:22] journalists in Gaza at such sacrifice, [18:25] risking the their own lives. Many of [18:27] them have been killed, including two of [18:28] our colleagues as we know. Uh, and their [18:32] families being targeted. I mean, that [18:34] they that and of course that has not [18:36] been recognized. You know, we had a [18:37] British foreign secretary, David Lammy, [18:39] saying there are no journalists in Gaza. [18:42] Uh, and so let's foreground that. And of [18:45] course the the west their western [18:48] colleagues have been lamentable in their [18:50] failure to stand up and acknowledge the [18:54] contribution made by Palestinian [18:57] journalists and pal Palestinian voices. [18:59] Nevertheless, this is an important film [19:01] and it's educating people. [19:03] >> Awesome. Okay, now to to the meat of our [19:05] discussion, right? Um, now I mean we're [19:07] going to be obviously we're going to [19:08] have to cover uh what's happened with [19:10] the sanctions announcements, the [19:11] response from Israel, the response from [19:13] Trump, some of the the it's not really [19:15] responses. It was like pre-responses [19:17] which I think were more interesting you [19:19] know in the leadup to the announcement. [19:20] There was seems to be more chatter than [19:22] then you know or or hate or you know [19:24] distraction than than than post that. [19:26] But I mean it's still early days so we [19:28] don't know what's going to occur. But I [19:29] mean this can't be divorced from the [19:31] fact that the two things have occurred [19:33] right two mega trends have occurred in [19:35] the last two or three years is that you [19:37] know and this happened the the first [19:38] time was it was very visible was after [19:41] you know Trump tried to enact Greenland [19:45] and and Mark Khani told a very wide [19:48] audience you know that that we should [19:49] not do this we as middling nations [19:51] should not be doing this we shouldn't be [19:53] going along with with the USA it's time [19:54] for us to start our own block um and [19:56] then when Trump repeatedly asked NATO [19:58] and other countries for help with Iran. [20:00] Um you know to block to help block the [20:03] blockage of of the straits of Hermuz, [20:06] South Korea, many me NATO members all [20:09] refused. Britain were among those who [20:11] refused. Um and to a large extent uh the [20:14] USA and Israel have gone it alone except [20:16] except with the help of of Arab allies [20:18] who are also under fire. Right. So they [20:20] they have a they have a very good reason [20:22] to to be to be kind of to not again not [20:25] towing along but but being more involved [20:27] than than countries in Europe for [20:28] example. Um but there's that that [20:31] there's that rift which is definitely [20:32] part of it but that can't be seen as [20:35] being separate from you know the US [20:38] coverage of Israel as it's as it's you [20:41] know not just done a genocide in Gaza [20:42] but it's bombed south southern Lebanon. [20:45] It's increased ethnic ethnic cleansing [20:46] in the West Bank. So before we get to [20:48] all the, you know, all the stuff that's [20:50] occurred and the things that Netanyahu [20:52] has said in in the in in the the leadup [20:54] to this and the things that Trump has [20:55] said about the Faulland Islands and [20:56] about British independence and Irish [20:58] independence before we get there, which [21:00] we will just what's your response to to [21:02] to that that trend that we've been [21:04] seeing? Well, I actually was thinking of [21:07] the Carney doctrine as it's now known uh [21:10] last week uh which is you know Mark [21:12] Carney outlined that the middle ranking [21:16] powers uh should get together as a sort [21:18] of counterweight to the great powers the [21:21] US and China and what we saw last week [21:23] was an extraordinary show of that. I [21:25] mean it was a great diplomatic victory [21:28] uh for Britain to actually bring France [21:31] and Canada along in announcing sanctions [21:34] uh on the settlements. There's strength [21:36] in numbers. It was a show of force and [21:39] these were three important US allies [21:42] effectively issuing a rebuke to American [21:45] policy in the Middle East and and they [21:48] were on the side of international law. [21:51] uh whereas the US increasingly has been [21:53] hostile to international law to [21:56] international institutions like the uh [21:58] the ICC. Uh and so it was hugely [22:01] significant as a diplomatic show of [22:03] force and of course in isolating Israel [22:06] as well in its uh policy of uh trying to [22:09] expand the settlements. So now in [22:13] Europe, support for Israel, strong [22:16] support for Israel, certainly the [22:18] settlements is a fringe position. [22:20] Basically, Germany is the last major [22:22] hold out. This wasn't the situation just [22:25] a few years ago. So it's easy to dismiss [22:28] this all as theater and certainly to an [22:30] extent it's theater, but it's hugely [22:33] consequential theater on the world [22:35] stage. Uh Peter, you've you've [22:37] co-authored a piece with Iran, so I'm [22:39] guessing you you agree with him a lot, [22:40] which says Ed Admiral Ban is becoming [22:43] UK's most formidable foreign secretary [22:45] in decades. Um some would read the [22:47] headline and say, "Hey, you guys are [22:49] going too far." Um what's your response [22:51] to that? Yes, I I mean the the last [22:55] foreign secretary who um had the [22:58] impertinence to stand up to the United [23:01] States [23:02] was Robin Cook [23:05] and he was disposed of as foreign [23:07] secretary because uh he wouldn't do what [23:10] Blair told him. Um and then he famously [23:13] resigned later u as leader of the house [23:17] uh over the Iraq war. And so Milliband [23:20] is the first uh secretary since since [23:23] Cook to do that. And he's more [23:24] successful. He's he's been more [23:26] skillful. I think what he did is this [23:29] assemble or played a role in assembling [23:31] this international coalition. Um and [23:35] also he seems to have handled the White [23:37] House extremely well. And so they there [23:39] wasn't bombast for once from President [23:43] Trump. He he seemed to in fact almost [23:45] some Rubio, Secretary of State Rubio [23:47] seemed to be agreeing with him almost. [23:50] So um it hasn't this hasn't created the [23:54] riff with the United States which uh [23:57] Starmmer was terrified of. You see [23:58] Starmmer was just scad rigid of of [24:01] upsetting the United States. It was [24:03] pathetic. And this has been a huge [24:06] moment in vindicating Labour's decision [24:09] to dispose of evict the wretched star [24:13] from Downing Street and putting in a [24:15] much you putting in Andy Bernham. [24:18] >> Okay. So I mean I just want to backtrack [24:20] a bit so we can we can get some of the [24:21] you know the because there was this [24:23] moment before the response which you as [24:26] you both mentioned has been muted and we [24:27] look at that that maybe the response [24:29] would not have been as muted as it has [24:30] been. Um, but this really all starts and [24:32] we'll just get our team to start playing [24:34] out. But this I mean uh there's a [24:36] there's a few Israelis and the US [24:38] ambassador to Israel, Mike Hakabe, who [24:39] say a few things, but it all starts in [24:41] response to to this video which which [24:43] Milliban put out a few days before the [24:46] actual announcements on the 8th of [24:47] September. [24:48] >> So I just came out of this meeting [24:50] talking about Gaza to people who've been [24:52] there and are there on the ground and [24:54] frankly it was horrific what is uh [24:57] unfolding. you know, the stories that [24:58] people were telling me of medicines [25:01] being blocked, children dying while [25:04] waiting for vital life-saving treatment. [25:08] When you hear that account of what is [25:10] happening, you know that we as a UK [25:14] government, as the prime minister has [25:15] said, have got to act and act more [25:18] decisively than we have. [25:21] >> Okay. Now, now before that that that [25:22] actually put out on the 14th of of of [25:25] August, the Guardian read a headline [25:26] which quotes Netanyahu as Najin Yahoo [25:28] describes UK as the first Islamic [25:30] republic to get a nuclear weapon. And [25:32] and after that video, in direct response [25:34] to that video, uh you know, the Israeli [25:36] foreign ministry put out a tweet that [25:39] said the British foreign secretary at [25:41] Milliban posts a video recounting [25:42] stories he was told about Gaza. If the [25:44] foreign secretary were interested in [25:46] facts rather than stories, he would know [25:48] that there would be no restrictions [25:49] whatsoever on the entry of medicines [25:51] into and we I mean the tweet goes on. [25:53] But the more important part I want to [25:54] get to is uh Mike Huckabe responds to [25:57] the to the Israeli foreign minister to [25:59] the Israeli foreign minister Twitter [26:00] account saying the Brits have lost it. [26:02] The Jew hate of their government knows [26:04] no boundaries and knows no facts. Um [26:08] this then starts a ripple effect which [26:10] you know we will we'll discuss that [26:11] later which is about you know uh a few [26:13] things are then said about the fault [26:15] islands and everything and this is all [26:16] before September 8th but before we go [26:18] there just Peter I'd like to get your [26:20] response to this my tweet the Brits have [26:23] lost it the Jew hate of their government [26:25] knows no boundaries and knows no facts [26:27] again how out of touch is all of this [26:30] >> well the is a stupid remark and and it [26:33] does echo though what say Netanyahu has [26:35] endlessly said that anyone who [26:37] criticizes [26:38] Israel over human human rights grants [26:41] whether it's the United Nations or the [26:43] ICC or whatever is anti-semitic. [26:47] But in fact, Huckabe was was hung out to [26:49] dry by the United State by his boss, [26:52] Secretary of State Rubio, and by Trump. [26:54] They didn't weigh in behind him. That's [26:57] significant. Uh and so it goes back to [27:00] what I was saying. I think that the [27:02] British foreign secretary managed this [27:04] with remarkable skill. [27:06] >> Uh Imran, you've been you've been [27:08] writing you've probably written about 20 [27:10] articles on this over the last month, [27:11] right? The the various things about [27:13] this. So there's there's a few people uh [27:15] who could answer this better, but I mean [27:17] tell us about just inform the the [27:19] audience through what you've learned [27:20] through your various reporting and [27:21] because I'll just if I if I say it, I'll [27:23] just be regurgitating what you've been [27:24] reporting on. So it's better you say it. [27:26] But but draw draw a map for us on on [27:29] sort of what occurred with Y Netanyahu [27:32] bringing bringing the Flands Island to [27:33] Trump's attention and then how that's [27:35] kind of fizzled and then peted out if [27:37] it's peted out. [27:39] >> Yeah, I think the jury the the jury is [27:41] still out. Um we're not really sure what [27:44] the US is going to do. So yeah Netanyahu [27:47] uh brought up the Faulland Islands and [27:49] suggested uh they belong to Argentina. [27:52] Uh and as soon as he did that, Trump [27:55] said um basically suggested that uh the [27:58] US wouldn't support Britain if Argentina [28:01] decided to invade the Falcons. And then [28:03] the Argent uh Argentinian president uh [28:05] gave a statement announcing sanctions on [28:08] on oil companies uh around the islands. [28:11] So that was another significant [28:13] escalation and essentially this was uh [28:16] interpreted by everyone as a retaliation [28:19] for the planned sanctions that were [28:21] coming. Now, it's very interesting [28:23] because there's a history behind Israel [28:26] taunting Britain over the Faulland [28:28] Islands, which people don't really know [28:30] about, which is that Israel actually [28:32] armed Argentina to kill British soldiers [28:35] during the Faulland Faulland's war. And [28:37] and that was during the rift with [28:39] Margaret Thatcher. The Thatcher [28:41] government had imposed an arms embargo [28:44] on Israel and in in response, Israel was [28:47] arming uh the Argentinians. It led to [28:49] the death of British soldiers. And so [28:51] there's a very bitter history there and [28:54] it's particularly within um the Israeli [28:57] consciousness more than it is within the [28:59] British public consciousness. So we saw [29:01] these provocations. Now then the [29:04] sanctions were announced as we've heard [29:06] the the reaction from the US was very [29:09] muted. However, it seems to me that [29:13] we can't really be sure what's going to [29:15] happen next because Trump did come out [29:18] apparently out of nowhere said that uh [29:21] you know a United Island would be a [29:24] great thing. Uh and he wouldn't have [29:26] just made that remark o off the cuff. It [29:29] would have been discussed privately that [29:31] you're going to do this. And uh [29:32] according to various reports, the logic [29:35] behind it was that the US is annoyed at [29:38] Britain over its foreign policy. And and [29:41] that's not just the sanctions, but also [29:43] the failure to really help the US during [29:46] the Iran war. So that might be it. And [29:48] and it might end with this, you know, a [29:50] few provocations and then really [29:52] nothing. Or there might be more down the [29:55] line. But this is a a typical Trumpian [29:58] response, not to say anything [30:00] immediately, but then to just blurt out [30:02] something completely outrageous. I mean, [30:05] 20 years ago, a US president backing a [30:08] United Island would be rolling coverage [30:11] worldwide for for days on end. And now, [30:14] everyone just sort of we don't know [30:15] whether he's uh joking or not. quite [30:18] like in the late 60s when there was an [30:21] insurgency in um Quebec in French can [30:25] Canada [30:26] shore the French leader went to went to [30:30] Canada and said something to the effect [30:31] of that [30:34] the false liberal [30:36] and it caused an absolute uproar rightly [30:39] so and that's it's that form of [30:41] intervention but as Iran says there's u [30:46] that there there's no credibility about [30:48] Trump. But what I think is interesting, [30:49] we ought to discuss and Iran and I are [30:51] actually working on a p joint piece on [30:53] this now is the use of is of the fear of [30:58] Islamop Islamophobia [31:01] as a weapon in this argument. [31:04] >> Yeah. So basically what we've been [31:06] seeing and and you mentioned that [31:07] Netanyahu uh branded the UK the Islamic [31:10] Republic of Britain. What we've seen is [31:12] this very interesting collaboration [31:14] between uh the Israeli rights including [31:17] Israeli ministers uh figures in the US [31:20] government and uh the British right [31:23] actually leaders of of British [31:24] right-wing parties uh in essentially [31:28] using Muslim voters to discredit [31:31] Britain's foreign policy. So it wasn't [31:33] just Netanyahu who said that Smotrich [31:36] said last week uh that the UK is [31:38] conquered by radical Islam. Trump two [31:41] weeks ago uh was going on about Sharia [31:44] courts in London. Again, Randy Fine, a [31:47] Republican congressman, suggested that [31:49] the sanctions are because of Muslim [31:51] voters and they want to take over the [31:53] country. And then look at what's [31:54] happening in this country. Kem Badenov, [31:56] the leader of the Tory party now, she [31:58] has to defend a very unpopular policy, [32:01] which is opposing the sanctions. [32:03] Actually, Tory voters narrowly are more [32:06] likely to support the sanctions than [32:08] oppose them. So, how does she defend [32:10] them? Well, she she resorts to you. [32:12] Domestic policy, she says it's about the [32:14] Islamist vote. Uh Richard Ty, the deputy [32:18] leader of reform, said the same thing. [32:20] They're also suggesting that it's [32:22] because of the bi-election in um Hoben [32:26] and and St. Pancress next month. Uh so [32:29] this is a suggestion that Andy Bernham [32:32] and Ed Milliband have somehow managed to [32:34] convince uh the French president and the [32:36] Canadian prime minister to drastically [32:39] alter their foreign policy uh on the [32:41] basis of bi-election in in Hoben and St. [32:43] Pancress is it is ridiculous completely [32:46] undermined by the facts but actually [32:47] it's a very powerful narrative. You [32:49] know, look at the the pages of the Daily [32:51] Mail last week, the Telegraph, the [32:53] Times. Uh they're all publishing [32:55] articles saying it's because of the [32:57] Muslim block vote or it's because of [32:58] Islamists or indeed the far-left. It's [33:01] not true. Uh the the ban on settlement [33:04] goods has broad support uh from the [33:07] British public. Uh only a small minority [33:09] actually oppose it. And in terms of [33:11] voters who are really concerned about [33:13] British support for Israel, there are [33:16] quite a lot um a majority of voters who [33:19] switched from Labor to uh central [33:22] left-wing parties like the Lib Dems and [33:24] the Greens polling has showed uh [33:26] actually cited Gaza as a factor. Now, [33:30] they can't all be Muslims. So, the idea [33:33] that it's just a fringe niche issue is [33:35] completely nonsense. Uh but this [33:37] powerful narrative of um Muslims are [33:40] taking over Britain is useful uh to the [33:43] Israeli government uh because for a long [33:45] time they've promoted the idea that we [33:47] are the frontier in the battle against [33:50] radical Islam and so they can use uh the [33:53] spectre of of Islam and the Muslim [33:55] threat to try and shore up support for [33:57] their policies. Pisa, you want to you [33:59] want to add anything to that? [34:01] >> Yes. I I think that Kimmy Badino may [34:05] have put herself in a very difficult [34:07] place [34:09] because she's trying to establish [34:11] herself as a credible uh conservative or [34:13] leader of the opposition future prime [34:15] minister but on this issue of uh the the [34:18] sanctions [34:20] and she's not just against um sort of [34:24] she she's she's against a lot of Jewish [34:26] opinion in Britain particularly young [34:28] Jewish people and very credible [34:31] Jewish organizations. [34:33] Uh and [34:35] so she's isolated herself uh nationally [34:39] on one of the great issues of the day. [34:42] Um and she and and the same applies [34:45] oddly enough to the newspapers. I don't [34:47] really know what the Telegraph thinks [34:49] it's doing. You know, it's [34:52] a rather old-fashioned. You know, [34:53] newspapers quite want to have readers [34:55] and I think they're going to be driving [34:57] away many of their readers. The same [34:59] applies to the the Daily Mail and the [35:02] Times and the Telegraph and and the Tory [35:06] Party and of course reform. So the this [35:09] right-wing block has now allied itself [35:13] become the champion of the settlers at [35:16] the moment when the settlers are [35:18] creating terrible violence across the [35:21] West Bank. They're involved actively in [35:24] ethnic cleansing, destroying [35:25] communities, killing people, and the [35:28] theory party, believe it or not, I mean, [35:31] he uses a bit of careful language, but [35:33] really is championing the settlers. [35:35] >> You know what what's interesting is that [35:36] you see the British government is is [35:39] clearly more aligned with the broader I [35:42] mean, they're still far away from it, [35:43] but they're more aligned with sort of [35:45] the broader sanctions movement against [35:46] Israel only because of this recent [35:48] thing, right? Um and when I say more [35:50] aligned I mean compared to the USA [35:52] >> not only because of the most recent [35:54] remember Sakir star to do him credit [35:57] um did recognize the state of Palestine [36:01] and so it's not just and took other [36:04] issues he stood up for he refunded UNRA [36:06] after the conservative party [36:08] unbelievably had defunded it [36:10] >> defunded it he he even sort of stopped [36:12] blocking the international criminal [36:14] court which the conservative party had [36:16] done and so let's just from I know it's [36:19] and I do it myself trashing Starmmer but [36:22] you've got to give him credit for some [36:24] of the things he did. [36:25] >> So so so so they're more aligned right [36:27] but what's interesting is the right in [36:29] America has the split [36:31] >> where you know you have very strong [36:32] voices some would say the leading sort [36:35] of public voices who are more articulate [36:39] in their criticisms of of Israel than [36:41] some of the most pro Palestinian [36:44] anti-Israel activists or intellectuals [36:46] around. Right. Um but in the UK you [36:48] don't see this. So it's interesting the [36:50] government on the whole seems more [36:52] aligned um with the US government which [36:54] is not a surprise because the US [36:56] government has been you know the [36:57] champion of Israeli actions for decades. [37:00] Um uh but why do we think why why do you [37:03] think this is so I mean why is it [37:05] >> a fascinating question is here in [37:07] America we have this Israel first [37:10] America first split within the [37:12] conservative movement and in uh Britain [37:16] that hasn't developed there are one or [37:17] two rather random conservatives who are [37:21] who who are very uneasy you know [37:23] publicly and also it was interesting [37:25] when um when Mr. Milliband made his [37:30] statement in the house how thinly [37:32] populated [37:34] uh the Tory benches were and so Tom [37:37] Tugandat the new and very raw and [37:39] inexperienced [37:40] um shadow foreign secretary uh he he's [37:44] been rampantly pro um Netanyahu's Israel [37:48] and remember Netanyahu is part of a far [37:50] extreme right coalition which is likely [37:53] I I think B suggests to to lose office [37:56] quite soon And I I I I think that this [38:00] this call by the Conservatives [38:02] um may cost them uh it may start to lo [38:07] they may start to lose support. We may [38:09] see that they that that that Badinok has [38:12] made a very bad call and there will be a [38:14] split soon and they will you again you [38:17] were talking about the South African [38:19] analogy earlier. [38:21] Um for a long time you remember the the [38:24] the Conservative party Maggie Thatch uh [38:27] was absolutely against sanctions on on [38:30] South Africa that split the Commonwealth [38:32] famously in the early 80s when she [38:35] apparently the the late queen was on the [38:37] side of uh the Commonwealth and [38:40] sanctions. But after but she got she got [38:42] the she got the memo in the end a a a [38:46] and changed feet just about in time for [38:49] the arrival of Mandela. I mean I [38:52] ultimately the Tories were the enemy of [38:55] of black South Africans [38:57] >> but um and I and I'm I wonder how long [39:00] this position can hold. [39:02] >> So I mean just I want to let's speak [39:03] about the South African example. So the [39:06] the British government I just recently I [39:08] researched this today just in in [39:10] preparation for this. So the British [39:11] government sort of in the 60s they [39:13] started to have very selective sanctions [39:16] on on on arming South Africa, right? um [39:19] not not by any means broad and there was [39:21] then there was you know at times there [39:22] was release relaxed and sometimes the [39:25] bolts were tightened but yes broad-based [39:27] sanctions against the government [39:29] interacting with the government entirely [39:30] happened in the late 80s now the what's [39:33] being you know imposed on Israel at the [39:36] moment is not not close to what was [39:37] eventually put on South Africa in the [39:38] 80s right um it's a very different [39:40] situation Israel strategically [39:43] um I mean South Africa was kind of [39:45] strategic and the cold war was was [39:46] happening for sort of the western allies [39:49] But not even wasn't like majorly [39:50] strategic but Israel is strategic for [39:52] the imperial designs of the USA for its [39:55] >> remember I I slightly disagree here [39:57] actually I I the key thing was Simon's [39:59] time it was remember South Africa uh got [40:03] the supports of particularly America and [40:05] Britain during the cold war when the [40:07] fear was that the Soviets would stop the [40:09] so canal and they'd have to go around [40:12] the ship shipping and trade would have [40:14] to go around the Cape and there was that [40:16] port there that was the naval base of [40:18] Simon town. So there was a major [40:20] strategic [40:21] uh point here and actually uh my [40:24] analysis [40:25] based on deep conversations with senior [40:28] politicians in South Africa who were [40:31] running the show at the time they said [40:33] what the reason why apartheid fell was [40:36] is not a coincidence. It was 9 months [40:38] after the fall of the Berlin wall and [40:40] until then um you know part was secure [40:43] but once they knew that Simon's time was [40:46] no longer strategic then they didn't [40:48] worry [40:48] >> they couldn't care about it but I mean [40:50] it's it's [40:52] ever as strategically important as [40:53] Israel is to the region [40:56] >> um I mean in many ways it feels to me [41:00] what is the what is the great pivotal [41:02] play kind of place in world I mean you [41:05] could see the [41:06] >> 100% Yeah. Yeah. [41:07] >> Whereas Israel is a uh is what do they I [41:10] suppose they see it as a regional [41:12] policeman but equally you could say that [41:16] it's the for that the kind of support we [41:19] or or the United States have given to [41:21] Israel is it damages our relations with [41:23] inside the wider region. This is all [41:25] that this is an argument one can have. [41:27] Um [41:29] coming back to the to the question I [41:30] wanted to sort of ask but how how much [41:33] longer do you think it would take for I [41:36] mean it's not just public sentiment but [41:37] sort of world sentiment and geopolitics [41:39] to sort of move the dial a bit more so [41:42] that the sanctions are are much more [41:43] stringent the sanctions are much more [41:45] effective um you know I mean I do think [41:47] these are significant and I do think [41:49] they are the symbolism is powerful um [41:52] but I mean there's a long way behind [41:54] sort of what the BDS is still still [41:55] calling for. Um, do you think we'll get [41:57] to that point or do you think we know [41:59] something else will occur? [42:01] >> I think it's impossible to tell. Uh, [42:04] particularly because there's going to be [42:06] an election in Israel. So, if we if we [42:08] look at the UK, um, if a new Israeli [42:11] government comes to power, uh, then [42:13] there might be an attempt to reset [42:15] relations. I think it will still be [42:17] difficult. You won't be able to turn the [42:18] clock back, uh, but they won't [42:21] necessarily be as as nearly as hostile, [42:24] uh, as they currently are. Um so it's [42:29] it's unclear to me that there's any uh [42:32] you know obvious trajectory uh that [42:34] we're going to see. I think the the Andy [42:37] Burnham government uh says privately. So [42:41] so what what you hear from government [42:42] sources is that they insist that this is [42:45] just the start. This is a new beginning. [42:47] Uh we're going to do foreign policy [42:49] differently and you're going to be [42:50] seeing more from us on this. And I [42:53] suppose we'll we'll have to test that [42:55] out. Uh again, if there's a change of [42:57] government in Britain as well, which I [42:58] don't think is particularly on the [43:00] horizon, uh you know, it's not going to [43:02] happen anytime soon. Um but if there is, [43:05] then you could have another change in in [43:07] foreign policy. At the same time, uh the [43:10] British right-wing parties that are [43:11] currently pro-Israel could also uh [43:14] change. It might be difficult to see [43:15] that happening, but what was interesting [43:16] is when I was at the Reform UK party [43:19] conference last year as a reporter [43:22] rather than a member. Um, [43:24] >> I thought you were sure. [43:28] >> Uh, it it it became clear that actually [43:30] everyone didn't have the same uh view on [43:33] Israel. So, you're talking about the [43:34] split in the US, right? But a lot of [43:36] reform members were horrified by what [43:38] was happening in Gaza. you know, a w a [43:40] woman came up to me because I asked Zia [43:42] Yusf a question about um Gaza and he [43:45] refused to uh condemn Israel and and a [43:48] woman came up to me almost tearful [43:50] saying that you know I really hope the [43:51] the Palestinians find uh peace. So there [43:55] is a big disconnect between the [43:56] politicians in some of these parties uh [43:59] and the members themselves. uh with the [44:01] Tory party again there used to be this [44:04] grand Tory Arabist tradition which was [44:07] actually quite prominent within the [44:08] Conservative party and then uh [44:11] Tory Arabists are basically extinct. I [44:14] remember Peter and I wrote um an article [44:17] in November 2023 uh entitled uh has [44:21] David Cameron revived the Tory Arabist [44:24] tradition uh to which the the answer was [44:26] no. Um, but we we were revisiting, you [44:30] know, that history and what what [44:31] happened to all the Tory Arabists. Well, [44:33] that could change again. It's not [44:34] inherent to the Tory party that it needs [44:37] to be uncritically supportive of Israel. [44:40] So, we've been running a bit long, but [44:42] there's a few things I still I still [44:43] sort of want to cover and Peter, I'll [44:44] want your response to that as well to [44:45] everything I just said. But, uh, one of [44:47] the things we were meant to discuss and [44:49] now we probably have to discuss in a [44:50] very abbreviated way. uh Bernham has [44:52] agreed uh you know to kind of start [44:54] engaging the Saudis to assist them and [44:57] advise them to send sort of military [44:58] advisers to help them try to figure out [45:01] what to do with the fact that their [45:02] their east west pipeline has now been [45:05] closed due to you know attacks by the [45:07] Houthis. Um [45:11] this puts Britain in a difficult [45:12] position. It's tried to stay out of that [45:14] war in a meaningful way. I don't think [45:16] this is a meaningful engagement with the [45:18] war but it's the start of something. [45:20] It's also the start of maybe this war [45:21] going in a in a direction now which is a [45:23] lot I mean it's always been [45:24] unpredictable but it now does seem you [45:28] know it's clear now that it's going to [45:29] be difficult for for for you know [45:32] Washington and Tehran to meet in some [45:34] sort of agreement. So what's your where [45:37] where do you see this is this can be a [45:39] challenge where do you think it's going [45:40] >> to say it's very significant [45:42] >> particularly in the light of the uh [45:44] Mecca agreement that Pakistan has [45:47] refused to come to the aid of Saudi [45:49] Arabia because that would have been one [45:52] of the first things you'd have expected [45:53] the Mecca agreement to deliver and [45:56] Pakistan really is the regional enforcer [45:58] its army is uh very prominent across the [46:01] Middle East. Now then you come on to the [46:03] matter of Britain. Well, I I cannot [46:06] forget visiting Sana in 10 years ago [46:09] when Britain was playing a major role in [46:12] the bombing of of of of Yemen targets [46:16] the wreckage it had created across S. It [46:19] was a very ugly moment indeed. We [46:22] creating the one of the worst [46:23] humanitarian crises in the world. Um now [46:28] we're being invited by the reportedly [46:29] are we not by the Saudis to um join in [46:33] and it's clear that the Saudis are quite [46:35] capable of fighting. I mean it's [46:37] pathetic all that those arms they get [46:39] sold or given by the sold by the states [46:43] and and us and they they can't fight and [46:47] only mercenaries go and fight. I I um I [46:50] um and they're not no good either. [46:54] Britain would be completely insane to [46:56] get involved in this and I can see that [46:59] we will come under pressure because alli [47:00] is sidi [47:03] the old bone crushing uh MBS the bone [47:06] crusher he uh is um he he will he will [47:11] be putting pressure and he's a major [47:12] ally and it will be presented as [47:15] strategic we need the oil we must not [47:17] get I would be you know we fought so [47:20] many wars the Houthis are very good [47:24] fighters. They fought and defeated the [47:27] Saudis about eight times in a row. Uh [47:31] uh you know and they and I've you know [47:33] they've got sandals and thongs I mean [47:36] thes and they're really you know they're [47:39] not very wellarmed. They're just very [47:41] very brave and committed whereas and [47:44] they're fighting an enemy which doesn't [47:46] know how to fight. We should not get [47:49] involved. [47:50] >> Okay. Excellent. Uh any last closing [47:52] remarks from either of you? [47:55] >> I think that while uh the Burnham [47:57] government may send military advisers to [47:59] Saudi Arabia since it's you know one of [48:02] the Gulf all [48:02] >> there plenty of them there already. [48:06] >> I think they're highly unlikely to want [48:09] to get involved. This seems to be a [48:11] government that doesn't want to be [48:12] embroiled in in conflict in the Middle [48:15] East. and and and we have to remember [48:17] that Britain's economy is being hit very [48:20] badly by the Iran war. Uh certainly if [48:23] the if the Houthis control the Babal [48:25] Mandab then it will be uh even more [48:27] economically disastrous for for Britain. [48:30] Uh but the root cause of this um [48:33] instability and and soaring energy [48:36] prices the US and Israel actually [48:38] attacking Iran in the first place. Uh, [48:41] and I think that's something that this [48:43] government probably understands. [48:45] >> What we should be doing is putting all [48:48] the pressure we have on uh, Israel and [48:51] the United States to to strike a [48:53] sensible deal which is available with [48:55] with Iran after they created this [48:58] pointless, stupid war. Two elderly, [49:02] slightly mad and useless leaders have [49:06] plunged us into this situation. It's [49:08] it's it's interesting because they've [49:10] plunged plunged us into it and now the [49:13] Iranians are asking for things which [49:15] will be difficult for them to agree to [49:17] >> and now so there's this quagmire and [49:19] >> no they've lost the war and they've got [49:21] to find a way of losing it and and lose [49:23] it losing it. Well, what Britain should [49:25] be doing is making it easy for the uh [49:29] >> as easy as possible for Trump to to give [49:33] in. Um we shouldn't be uh helping them. [49:37] And this I think I I I rather suspect [49:39] that's what what the message that is [49:41] being sent to Trump. And this actually [49:43] may account for some of this cautious [49:47] mad language attacks on Britain and the [49:50] he's joined the court joined the cause [49:52] of a republican of a republic and [49:55] Ireland and so forth and the Falklands. [49:57] I dare say that's why. [49:59] >> Okay. And not because of our position, [50:02] new position on the settlements, more [50:05] because we're refusing to get help [50:08] involved in Iran. [50:10] >> Uh Imran and Peter, well, Irm and Peter, [50:13] thank you so much for joining us. Uh [50:15] thank you for joining us. Um I've been [50:17] told to say that if you see the live [50:19] show, you should see us every Tuesday [50:21] and Thursday, 5:00 p.m. London time, [50:23] noon, uh if you in the US or East New [50:26] York time. Um yeah, we'll see you then [50:29] and thank you so much for joining us.
