Transcript [00:00] But CPJ has dozens, I think about 60 of [00:04] names or more where they both claim that [00:08] the journalist died in quote unquote a [00:10] dangerous assignment while the [00:12] description says that they died in their [00:14] home. So use a little bit of logic and [00:17] tell me how can a journalist be in a [00:19] dangerous assignment while they're in [00:20] their own home. [music] [00:25] This is The Honest Take, the show that [00:26] goes past the headlines to find out [00:28] what's actually true about Israel and [00:30] the people covering it. I'm Ben Cherto [00:33] and this is a bonus episode, a full [00:35] replay of a panel we streamed about what [00:38] we found inside the Committee to Protect [00:41] Journalists database of journalists [00:43] killed in Gaza. Our research says more [00:46] than half of them were operatives or [00:48] tied [music] to terror groups. Aaron [00:51] Milan moderated and she'll introduce the [00:53] panel. [00:56] >> Hello. Hello. Welcome wherever you are. [00:59] I know people are joining us from all [01:01] over the world. I am here in Sydney. Uh [01:04] but luckily we are connected by the [01:06] internet and many other things. So it's [01:07] great to be able to all come together [01:10] and talk about a really important issue. [01:13] And by the way, we're going to introduce [01:15] something that will be novel to some of [01:16] the others out there. facts and [01:19] evidence. Who would have thought? [01:22] Shocking, huh? A lot of this you will [01:24] say we have been saying this forever. [01:28] But what honest reporting does is it [01:31] goes in there, it gets the facts and it [01:34] puts it out there for the world to see. [01:37] Now, I know a lot of the people who we [01:39] would consider enemies of everything [01:41] that we value won't share that. But that [01:43] doesn't matter. Facts matter and here is [01:46] where we discuss them. What we're [01:48] talking about today, this is the CPJ [01:51] files. What our research uncovered. [01:55] Honest reporting do this better than [01:58] anyone. And the fact that you're here [02:00] shows that you already know that. How [02:02] many times have you seen a headline [02:04] about a journalist killed maybe in Gaza [02:09] and then if you follow the right [02:11] accounts on social media, you might see [02:13] a day or so later a picture of that same [02:16] journalist holding a machine gun. So, [02:20] not a journalist at all. And this would [02:23] be, by the way, if it was just random [02:26] accounts sharing the kind of information [02:29] that has been put out there by a couple [02:30] of organizations. I'll highlight in a [02:32] second. [02:34] Not great, but not completely damaging. [02:38] The issue is when these farical groups [02:42] put out the wrong information, otherwise [02:44] known as lies, it gets picked up by [02:48] mainstream media organizations people [02:52] consider to be reputable [02:54] and spreads like wildfire. And the [02:58] damage is done. As we've seen, the lies [03:01] travel so quickly to millions and [03:04] millions. Rarely does a correction come, [03:08] but if it does, a handful [03:10] [clears throat] see it and that's it. [03:12] The damage is done. This is why this [03:14] work matters so so much. Now, two of the [03:17] main perpetrators in this space that [03:20] have databases that put out the wrong [03:23] information regarding the alleged [03:26] targeting of journalists by Israel. So, [03:28] the Committee to Protect Journalists, [03:31] it's ironic that name, isn't it? The CPJ [03:35] and the International Federation of [03:37] Journalists, the IFJ. So, both maintain [03:41] these databases of slain inadverted [03:44] commas journalists. But who are they [03:47] really? And again, how damaging is the [03:51] lie? And not just for Israel, and that [03:52] matters greatly by the way, but to all [03:55] of us who value a free press, the [03:58] sanctity of life, peace, prosperity, [04:02] democracy, all of that. It damages [04:04] everything. [04:05] Our panel today is superb, and I'll [04:08] bring them in in just a moment. So, the [04:10] CPJ acknowledged on June 25 that it was [04:13] conducting a full review of its database [04:15] of journalists, again, inverted commas, [04:17] killed in the October 7 war, citing [04:20] obituaries published by terrorist groups [04:23] declaring CPJ listed journalists as [04:25] operatives. Don't you hate that when you [04:28] get let down by the terrorists you're [04:29] trying to provide cover for? That is [04:32] just it's disappointing. I'm being [04:34] sarcastic, by the way. CPJ has removed [04:38] eight individuals from its database for [04:41] participating in the hostilities. That's [04:43] a kind way of putting it. And seven for [04:46] not meeting its definition of a [04:48] journalist. [04:50] They're now apparently self- auditing. [04:52] But I mean, trust that if you will and [04:54] if you want to. According to Honest [04:56] Reporting Research, over half of the [04:58] journalists in CPJ's database are [05:01] operatives or have affiliation with [05:03] terrorist organizations. half over half [05:09] that's not just like hey we got you we [05:11] found this one minute example this is [05:13] huge it debunks the myth entirely now [05:17] honest reporting has also found that IFJ [05:21] silently removed eight terrorist tied [05:23] individuals from its database and it has [05:26] provided no explanation as to why [05:31] nothing [05:33] it thought it could just go under the [05:35] radar but not on honest reporting's [05:38] watch. [05:40] Now news outlets have repeatedly [05:41] published stories about these [05:43] journalists slain in the war over a [05:45] hundred where they quote these figures [05:47] and the headlines of course are [05:49] horrific. [05:51] This is what they do and this is why [05:53] uncovering it and exposing it matters so [05:56] much. Let me introduce three people who [05:59] are phenomenal in this space. Leslie [06:02] Kajjamovitz, media professional, 20 [06:05] years in international news. So Leslie [06:08] brings a global perspective shaped by [06:10] being born in the US, raised in Latin [06:12] America, currently living in both Israel [06:14] and Europe. Her background has provided [06:16] her with a deep understanding of how [06:18] media shapes narratives across diverse [06:20] cultural and geopolitical landscapes. [06:22] Leslie, welcome to you. Great to have [06:24] you here. [06:25] >> Hi, Erin. Thank you. Thanks for having [06:27] me. [06:27] >> Gabriel Epstein, such a pleasure. Now [06:29] he's an Israel policy forum senior [06:32] policy associate based in Maryland. He's [06:35] previously worked as a research [06:36] assistant in the cor project on Arab [06:39] Israel relations at the Washington [06:41] Institute for Near East Policy and his [06:44] analysis has appeared in the Washington [06:46] Post and the Associated Press. [06:47] Originally from Washington State, [06:49] Gabriel holds a BA in political science [06:51] from the University of Washington and an [06:53] MA in international relations from the [06:56] John's Hopkins School of Advanced [06:58] International Studies. Now you're just [07:00] showing off, Gabrielle. That's really [07:02] actually quite disappointing, but [07:03] welcome to you. Great to see how [07:05] qualified you are. [07:06] >> Great, great, great. That's how you know [07:07] I'm young. [laughter] [07:09] >> That's terrifying. Author and researcher [07:13] Eisenberg is on the board of Honest [07:14] Reporting. He's a senior fellow at UN [07:16] Watch and reports for the Henry Jackson [07:18] Society. His work has been cited by the [07:21] Free Press, the Telegraph, and other [07:22] media. And of course, he's most proud of [07:24] being involved here, aren't you? [07:26] >> Thank you, Erin, very much for having [07:28] me. Yes. Uh, definitely [07:31] >> legends. Let's jump straight into this. [07:33] I want to ask initially and I'll start [07:34] with you Leslie, ladies. First, were you [07:38] surprised by what honest reporting [07:41] uncovered that a lot of the journalists [07:43] were not in fact journalists? [07:46] I'll be honest, I wasn't surprised that [07:48] a lot of the journalists weren't [07:50] journalists. I was surprised when they [07:53] came out with the evidence that they had [07:55] invaded Israel, because a big part of [07:57] them invaded Israel, that the mainstream [08:00] media didn't care, didn't fire them for [08:02] the most part. There was a petition for [08:04] the Washington Post and the New York [08:05] Times for months going on. That really [08:08] surprised me. [08:10] >> What about you, Gabriel? [08:14] >> Not not terribly surprised. Um, a bit by [08:17] the numbers, frankly. Part of the reason [08:19] it's not surprising is that if you [08:21] looked at the relatives and friends [08:23] social media of some of these people [08:25] around the time that they had died [08:26] during Ramadan on anniversaries, things [08:29] like this or in nonofficial um kind of [08:32] group martyrs channels and things like [08:33] this that commemorate people. Um you [08:35] could find evidence in a lot of cases [08:37] sometimes coming out months later. Um so [08:39] when the official group stuff comes out, [08:41] you know, just in the last couple of [08:42] months, it's not quite as shocking, but [08:44] there's a lot of cases where there was [08:45] really no open source indication before. [08:47] So, in that sense, very surprising. [08:50] >> And by the way, the point I'm making [08:51] about not being surprised isn't that, [08:53] well, we didn't need this research [08:55] because no one's surprised. This [08:57] research is crucial because what it does [08:59] is give us weight behind what we as sane [09:02] people on the right side of history [09:04] already knew. This is crucial because [09:06] you can't just say, "Oh, it's not true." [09:08] You actually need evidence to back it [09:10] up, right, S? [09:12] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean what's [09:14] interesting here is that you have me [09:17] Leslie Gabriel here. Um you know this is [09:20] an honest reporting event but the [09:22] information that's coming out is really [09:25] all of us everyone here did work on that [09:28] that honest reporting compiled and what [09:30] it really shows which is disturbing is [09:33] that not a single mainstream media [09:36] outlet in the entire world has uncovered [09:39] this. This is all us. It's all kind of [09:43] non-professionals in some sense that are [09:46] uncovering this information and bringing [09:49] it out there. And it's the collective [09:50] work and honest reporting and other [09:52] groups that have forced it onto the the [09:55] global stage in a sense and kind of [09:57] forced CPJ to take notice. Uh I mean [10:01] there's really no reason why the New [10:02] York Times, Wall Street Journal, [10:04] whatever BBC, whatever in Australia, [10:08] World Press, they could have done the [10:10] same research. It's all out there. I [10:11] mean, there's no reason why they can't [10:14] go to the Hamas martyr notices and match [10:16] up the that their journalists are their [10:20] fighters and report on it. So, there's [10:23] still not a single mainstream media news [10:27] report about this topic. It's total [10:30] silence and it's just us and others on [10:32] the internet that uh on X and other that [10:35] that we should give credit to [10:36] collectively. [snorts] [10:38] >> Uh absolutely. It is utterly [10:40] disgraceful. But but I tell you what, [10:42] and Leslie, I'm sure you all relate to [10:44] this as a 20-year media veteran. There's [10:47] almost nothing that media outlets hate [10:49] more than having to report on something [10:52] that proves that they've been wrong [10:54] multiple times. If mainstream media were [10:56] to report on this and these findings, [10:58] which if it were in any other field, [11:00] they they jump to because it's so big. [11:03] They would also have to admit that they [11:05] ran multiple headlines that were wrong, [11:08] that they have printed lies to their [11:10] audience. They're not going to jump onto [11:13] that, are they, Leslie? [11:15] >> They aren't, and they haven't for over a [11:18] decade. I mean, if you go back to the [11:19] CPJ uh database, uh it's not it didn't [11:22] start on October 7th, as they like to [11:24] say, you'll find names since 2015 that I [11:29] don't know, the Mayor Institute for [11:30] Terrorism had already found pictures of [11:33] them being buried, you know, with Hamas [11:35] draping. They they're still there 10 [11:38] years later. So, no, they're not going [11:40] to, you know, correct themselves. They [11:42] hate doing that. and CPJ doesn't even [11:45] seem to be wanting to be legitimate for [11:48] at least a decade. [11:50] >> Gabriel, what does this do in terms of [11:53] damage? How dangerous are the lies that [11:57] that millions see? [12:00] Well, I would say fir first first I [12:02] would say only to slightly push back on [12:04] the framing is that media organizations [12:07] who are trying to report on Gaza without [12:09] reporters on the ground relying on [12:11] stringers or on social media basically [12:13] on a very partial jumbled up [12:15] kaleidoscope of perspectives have a [12:18] really hard job. There's also the [12:19] problem that a lot of times it's you [12:21] don't find out within five or six hours [12:23] whether or not someone was affiliated [12:24] with a terrorist group or not. Sometimes [12:26] you only find out months or years later [12:27] and you really need to dig for it. Now, [12:29] that might be hard for your average [12:31] reporter who has a couple of hours to [12:32] file a deadline um or file a story, you [12:34] know, to meet a deadline or something [12:35] like this and they don't have time to [12:36] come back to it. But for an organization [12:38] like CPJ, I would argue there's a [12:40] professional obligation or professional [12:41] interest in ensuring that when you're [12:44] trying to protect journalists that they [12:46] that everything follows the regulations [12:47] of your organization, right? CPJ didn't [12:50] remove these people because they made a [12:51] sudden decision that their policies had [12:53] changed. They just went to enforce their [12:55] policies. Right? And there's kind of a [12:58] twofold problem here. One is for us [12:59] outside um people who are consuming the [13:01] news, right? And that's that if you [13:03] don't know um one that sometimes the [13:06] journalists who have been killed were [13:07] not killed because they were [13:08] journalists. They were killed because [13:08] they were militant or because they were [13:10] standing next to a militant or something [13:11] like this as you know collateral damage [13:14] as terrible as it is. Um that's one [13:16] problem. We we don't know that. And we [13:17] also don't know that sometimes the [13:19] stringers that are being relied on right [13:21] were not exactly good faith actors. They [13:23] were not neutral arbiters of the news to [13:24] the extent that that's possible [13:25] obviously in a war zone. Then the second [13:27] problem is for media professionals and [13:29] journalists within Gaza themselves, [13:30] right? Gaza is a very heterogeneous [13:32] media environment. You have people who [13:34] are very big on social media and have a [13:36] bigger audience than a lot of the news [13:37] sites. You have militant affiliated [13:39] television channels, radio stations, [13:41] etc. You have privatelyowned news [13:42] agencies and organizations. And you have [13:44] people who work as freelancers, as [13:45] fixers, as stringers, etc. Everyone [13:48] who's not a militant and operates as a [13:49] media worker, a journalist, a cameraman, [13:51] a photographer, whatever, is put in [13:53] danger when they don't know that there [13:54] are people who are going to be targets [13:56] for the Israeli military because they [13:57] are militants. They're put in danger [13:59] when those people are intents next to [14:01] them, when they are moving around near [14:03] them, when they come into contact with [14:04] them, only knowing about the civilian [14:06] side of their profession, not the [14:08] militant side. That's a real risk. Um, [14:10] and it's irresponsible. One, obviously, [14:12] it's irresponsible for militants to put [14:13] other to put media professionals in that [14:15] situation, but that's not something that [14:16] they would care about. Um, but it's [14:18] dangerous. And so, in the interest of [14:20] protecting journalists, as CPJ's name [14:22] indicates, it's important to be honest [14:24] about these kinds of things, to not let [14:25] this system persist. Um, because it does [14:28] put other journalists in danger. It puts [14:29] innocent people in danger. [14:31] Look, I I I agree entirely, but but to [14:34] then push back on on part of your [14:37] framing regarding responsibility of [14:39] journalists and the reliance upon [14:41] organizations like CPJ, I would say as a [14:43] journalist that absolutely you can't go [14:46] in there yourself and see and you have [14:47] to sometimes rely on organizations. But [14:50] if I'm putting something out there and [14:51] my name is to it, regardless of whether [14:53] I'm at a local council newspaper or I'm [14:55] at the New York Times, the [14:56] responsibility and notice is on me to [14:58] determine whether or not that [15:00] organization is reputable, whether or [15:02] not that information is right. And if I [15:03] can't verify it either way, then I ain't [15:06] putting it out there. And I think that [15:07] journalists need to take individual [15:09] responsibility. and the newspapers, TV [15:12] networks, whoever it is they work for as [15:14] well need to determine themselves by [15:17] maybe a bit of journalism whether or not [15:19] they can rely on those figures. So I see [15:21] your point about it's difficult for them [15:23] to go in and to see it themselves. But [15:26] there's also an onus on you as a [15:27] journalist to determine whether who you [15:29] are quoting whether it's Reuters or [15:31] whoever else CPJ I who wherever it is is [15:35] is an organization that values truth and [15:38] that has done the work themselves and [15:40] isn't putting out propaganda. [snorts] [15:42] >> That's very true. [15:44] >> Uh let's go to S. Um S I don't see [15:49] uproar regarding terrorists infiltrating [15:53] media or hijacking media. Why are all [15:57] those who are so angry about Israel [15:59] allegedly targeting journalists not [16:00] angry when evidence comes out that [16:02] terrorist organizations are using [16:04] journalists and journalistic fronts to [16:07] kill? [16:07] >> Yeah. You know, this this is in my mind [16:10] the maybe the biggest story of the Gaza [16:12] war that that's emerged because it cuts [16:15] through everything. It sort of debunks [16:18] everything all the way from targeting [16:20] civilians to the whole genocide hoax. Uh [16:23] because first it's okay, you're you're [16:25] targeting civilians and you're targeting [16:27] journalist not only civilians but [16:29] journalists. Uh really highly protected [16:32] civilians. May maybe children are the [16:34] only one who's who are more kind of [16:36] sacred, but journalists are sacred. [16:38] They're the ones reporting the news. And [16:39] not only are you killing them, you're [16:40] specifically targeting them to silence [16:43] their crimes. Now it's come out, wait, [16:46] that's not true at all. And it's not [16:47] just one or two, it's dozens. It's not [16:49] just dozens. Hey, it's about a hundred. [16:51] Uh so it just kind of cuts through. It's [16:54] the most important story because it [16:55] debunks everything that's been said [16:57] about what Israel has done. And if you [16:58] admit that, then you have to admit, [17:00] wait, maybe everything that we've heard [17:03] about Gaza is totally wrong. And it's [17:05] not that the just the journalists are [17:07] terrorists. They're the ones that are [17:09] reporting what's happening in Gaza. So [17:11] when there's a mosque that's hit and you [17:13] see in the media, 12 children and [17:16] civilians were killed. Who's that [17:18] reporter? It's Kanan Isla. It's Anas al- [17:21] Sharif. It's all those other reporters. [17:23] That's what's being picked up in the [17:25] media. And they're lying. And we've [17:26] proven many times that they're lying. So [17:29] every every piece of information that's [17:31] come out of Gaza that's fed into the [17:33] civilian harm that's fed into this whole [17:35] genocide label is all stems from these [17:39] journalists. And if they're proven to be [17:41] the terrorists, you have to rethink [17:44] everything you've read and written about [17:46] this war for three years. And as you [17:48] said, most people just don't want to do [17:50] that. It's not the narrative that [17:51] they're comfortable telling. [17:54] Leslie, can you tell me who these [17:57] journalists actually are? Because you [17:59] found out some of the connections to to [18:02] senior members and commanders of Hamas. [18:04] It's not just randoms. [18:06] >> Yeah. So, you know, while like Gabriel [18:08] has been looking into like the posters [18:10] and finding like confirmations from [18:12] Hamas and PI, I've been focusing more [18:15] into like their con their family [18:17] connections. Who are they really? like [18:19] not not only whether they were militants [18:21] or not but who they are and you'll find [18:25] you know the grandson of well not on the [18:28] CPJ list but you'll find in other list [18:30] for example the the grandson of Ahmed [18:33] Yasin the founder of Hamas you'll find [18:36] you'll find the son of you know senior [18:39] Hamas members that were killed in the [18:41] 2000s that founded Hamas that were [18:43] deported to Lebanon back in the day [18:45] their children now are quote unquote [18:47] journalists [18:49] Um, and these are very, very senior [18:51] members. You'll find in the CPJ list. [18:53] You'll find actual senior members of [18:55] Hamas, at least one of them. It's a [18:58] senior member from the Poly Burau. He [19:01] helped the Hamas designed the Alcasam [19:04] Brigades website where we get all the [19:05] confirmation posters. For example, his [19:08] children are part of the CPJ list as [19:10] well. So now you have senior members of [19:12] Hamas, legitimate journalists, and their [19:15] children. It it's you know and as I as [19:18] Salah was saying these are not [19:21] necessarily information that is hidden [19:22] that you have to go you know I don't [19:25] know be sad to find out all you got to [19:27] do is go to their Facebook pages [19:31] >> Gabe what is Israel how how do they [19:34] tackle this currently and and the policy [19:36] institute I know you you'd be all over [19:38] this and what do you think they could be [19:40] doing better because again you look at [19:43] what honest reporting and you three have [19:45] done here and what you have uncovered [19:47] and the point is made. This is available [19:49] if you're willing to take the time to go [19:50] in and actually just look and put it out [19:53] there. Can Israel be doing more to [19:55] expose it? And I know it's an uphill [19:57] battle and you know they're they're up [19:58] against it. [20:00] >> It's it's a great question. It's a [20:02] complex one, right? Because the IDF has [20:05] this unprecedented level of access to [20:07] information, right? both from closed [20:09] source and open source intelligence, but [20:10] also because they've extracted these [20:12] massive personnel files and other [20:14] documents um from Gaza and they've had [20:16] units within Kogat, units within [20:17] military intelligence, etc. are [20:19] processing them and extracting [20:20] information, right? Information [20:21] exploitation or document exploitation. [20:24] The challenge with that is is that [20:26] unless they're going to publish these [20:27] things in their entirety, whether or not [20:29] you trust that entirely comes down to [20:30] whether or not you trust the Israeli [20:32] military. And for most of the people who [20:34] are would be resistant to the idea that [20:36] many of these journalists were also [20:37] militants um or militant was their [20:39] primary job, they're not going to [20:41] believe the Israeli military. So in some [20:44] sense, yes, the IDF needs to respond [20:46] differently and it needed to respond [20:47] better earlier in the war. It is doing [20:49] so now. I would argue it take the case [20:50] of Akmed Samir who was an alazer media [20:54] worker who almost just a couple of hours [20:56] after the strike that killed him. They [20:58] released um clear photos of him doing [21:00] military training in Hamas uniform etc. [21:02] and were pretty clear about the [21:04] portfolio of evidence they had on him. [21:06] Um, but in the past that was not always [21:07] the case. Um, and when you look at the [21:09] Committee to Protect Journals, the CPJ [21:11] listings, it's very common to see that [21:13] they reached out, let's say, to the [21:14] IDF's North America media desk for [21:16] comment and then they say they didn't [21:17] receive anything back. And that may just [21:19] be a blanket policy. It may be a policy [21:21] because the Israeli military generally [21:22] regards CPJ as a hostile organization. [21:25] But no matter what, you want to hold in [21:27] the narrative. Right now, the thing that [21:29] I'll say that's different about what [21:30] Leslie and Solo and I and um other [21:32] people, including a fantastic analyst [21:34] named Middle East VUA on Twitter, who I [21:36] think everyone should follow, who's done [21:37] probably some of the most comprehensive [21:38] work on this, [21:39] >> for sure. [21:40] >> Our goal is to source basically nothing [21:43] from the IDF, nothing from Israel. [21:44] Everything has to be from friends, it [21:46] has to be from relatives of the [21:47] deceased, and it has to be from the [21:48] militant groups themselves. One, because [21:50] then you're well, primarily just because [21:52] then you're not asking anyone to trust [21:54] the Israeli military. only asking them [21:55] to believe what Hamas and Palestinian [21:57] Islamic Jihad and the mothers, fathers, [21:59] brothers, sisters, children of these [22:01] people are saying themselves. And to me, [22:03] that's a much smaller lift and much more [22:05] convincing um than asking someone to [22:07] trust a military that maybe they don't [22:08] trust. [22:09] >> Yes, it it's such a great point and s [22:12] that's crucial, isn't it? I mean, if you [22:14] get it from them themselves, [22:17] it's hard to argue with, [22:19] >> right? And and I I think you know [22:21] building on that point I think it cuts [22:22] across to how this war was reported uh [22:25] where just in general remarkably and [22:28] stunningly when Hamas said something it [22:31] was believed. Um, [laughter] and I could [22:34] see I could show you specific numerous [22:36] articles in the New York Times where it [22:38] says the Ministry of Health uh says [22:41] something and then the next paragraph it [22:43] says Israel says something that cannot [22:46] be independently verified with that same [22:49] disclaimer not being attached to the [22:51] Hamas Ministry of Health [22:53] >> point. So, and the same thing with the [22:56] journalists. I mean, right, Israel could [22:58] have done a lot more to provide [23:00] information. I'll give the example of [23:01] Anas Jamal al- Sharif, a very well-known [23:05] journalist. He was killed I think in [23:07] August uh 24 or 25. I have it here. When [23:10] was he killed? Uh but Israel did put out [23:13] documentation showing his listing and [23:16] phone number on the East Jabaya [23:18] battalion that he was injured in 2023. [23:21] That document, they showed a list of [23:23] operatives. They they released documents [23:25] for that, but the basic posture was we [23:28] just don't believe you. uh we're going [23:30] to believe Hamas instead. Um and that's [23:33] sort of the posture of how the whole war [23:35] has been reported. And I think what this [23:37] has done that there are you know 50 60 [23:41] 100 it depends how what evidentary basis [23:44] you accept. Uh but Hamas and PJ have [23:46] admitted to many dozen. So it's it's [23:48] it's not just a couple of mistakes. It's [23:51] systematic. It should change the [23:54] perspective that it's time to believe [23:56] maybe what Israel said and maybe to [23:58] disbelieve Hamas which and that's [24:01] another shift that the media is not [24:03] ready to take. They don't want to do [24:04] that. [24:09] >> How can we convince the mainstream media [24:11] to disbelieve Hamas? What? Like [24:14] [clears throat] I'm sorry but ah um I'd [24:17] love to get all of your thoughts on this [24:19] and Leslie I'll start with you. I I've I [24:23] mean been heavily involved in in [24:25] covering I mean this latest conflict [24:27] since October 7 and it doesn't matter [24:30] what evidence is provided. So, so Israel [24:33] could be perfect, the IDF could be [24:34] perfect. You know, people can put out [24:37] there things that are irrefutable, [24:40] and there is still such a huge portion [24:42] of society that will not believe it, [24:44] that refuse to believe it, that will [24:45] continue to push out their lies. And in [24:47] some instances, it's because, you know, [24:49] they're pushing propaganda, they know [24:51] exactly what they're doing. Others are [24:53] it's it's they just don't have capacity [24:55] to look in. They see a headline, they [24:56] believe it, they move on. Does it even [24:59] like how do we actually convince people [25:02] if all the evidence in the world [25:04] sometimes doesn't seem to convince them [25:06] of the truth? Leslie, [25:09] >> I think the biggest challenge is the [25:11] repetition. You know, as you know, right [25:13] now you're dealing with syndication [25:15] news. You know what AP, what Reuters, [25:18] you know, what AFP publishes all of the [25:20] all of the sudden overnight it's in tens [25:22] of thousands of media outlets. copy [25:24] paste, no verification, no framing, no [25:28] context, and then you see it repeated [25:30] everywhere. So when you're saying, well, [25:34] here's the evidence, you know, let's [25:35] say, I don't know, IDF show the [25:37] evidence. Here's the video, whatever. It [25:38] doesn't matter the source, they'll come [25:40] back and always say, well, I saw it in [25:42] the BBC and I saw it on CNN and I saw it [25:45] here. And how could 20 media outlets be [25:47] wrong? And you know, once you understand [25:50] how media, you know, how news is [25:51] produced, you understand, well, it's [25:52] very easy that they're all wrong because [25:54] they're all copying each other. They're [25:56] monitoring each other and copying each [25:58] other, you know, whatever they're [26:00] saying. [26:01] >> You're exactly right. And it's a similar [26:03] thing with the United Nations. The [26:04] amount of times that people have said to [26:06] me, "But Erin, the United Nations is [26:08] saying so." And you just think, "Oh my [26:10] lord." I mean we all know what a farical [26:13] organization it is but if in your mind [26:16] it's an organization that cares about [26:18] human humanity and does good same as [26:20] media organizations you think oh but you [26:22] know especially like a Reuters or an AAP [26:24] you think well oh they just put out the [26:26] information and how do we deal with that [26:29] Gabe [26:31] >> I think you know there's in some sense [26:33] something that can happen at the [26:34] individual level there's things that can [26:35] happen at the institutional level [26:37] there's one core problem is that for a [26:40] large part of the chunk of the people [26:42] that you know you might be talking to or [26:43] arguing with or trying to convince or [26:45] seeing pushing a certain narrative that [26:47] was set long before October 7th. Um it's [26:50] it's a much more baseline sentiment. So [26:52] yeah, and people's sentiments are [26:53] generally resistant to data or facts [26:55] unless it happens to reinforce that [26:56] sentiment. I would say the other thing [26:58] is that there's an illusion of authority [27:00] and then there's an illusion of [27:01] information and then there's an illusion [27:02] of precision, right? So the illusion of [27:04] authority is that because a body says [27:06] something, you don't need to examine [27:08] their argument. And I think everybody [27:09] across the spectrum can be fairly guilty [27:11] of this. When a professor says [27:13] something, we inherently trust it. When [27:15] a the United Nations says something, we [27:16] inherently trust it. Um, and then I [27:18] think people do it in the other [27:19] direction too, right? When the IDF says [27:20] something, they inherently trust it [27:22] instead of listening carefully, right? [27:23] And so sometimes it'll be Israelis who [27:25] listen very carefully to what the IDF [27:26] says or doesn't say and then are willing [27:28] to point out when there's a problem or [27:29] not. Um, so sometimes it takes [27:31] familiarity. The illusion of information [27:33] is that Gaza is quite possibly the most [27:35] heavily documented war in the world. [27:37] It's a combination of a small territory, [27:38] a relatively small population, right, of [27:41] just over two million people. Um, a huge [27:43] amount of international presence, [27:45] whether that's NOS's, whether that's [27:46] media attention, etc. And then everybody [27:48] with smartphone, smartphones, quite [27:50] consistent internet access despite a lot [27:52] of outages relative to other big [27:54] conflict zones like let's say Sudan or [27:56] Ethiopia. All these things contribute to [27:58] a constant fire hose of information. And [28:01] the illusion of that that we get from [28:03] that tidal wave of information is that [28:05] we really know what's going on. And the [28:07] truth is you don't. What you're seeing [28:08] is something refracted through a hall of [28:10] mirrors. And sometimes it takes time and [28:12] sometimes it takes diligence. And [28:13] sometimes it takes drilling down to get [28:15] past that. And then the third thing is [28:17] the illusion of precision. And that's [28:19] that people when people see a statistic [28:21] or a figure, they assume that that [28:23] statistic is inherently true, right? And [28:26] that it accurately maps on to the world. [28:28] And the problem is that's actually very [28:29] rarely true. Um, it's only really true [28:31] when you have a data set that's [28:32] completely self-contained and doesn't [28:34] exit into the very, very messy real [28:36] world. But what we have with Gaza is a [28:38] lot of judgments and other things based [28:40] on data that is just limited inherently. [28:43] Sometimes it is systemically skewed or [28:45] biased in one direction or another. But [28:47] when you combine these three things, the [28:49] illusion of precision, the illusion of [28:51] information, the illusion of authority, [28:53] you can really rapidly construct an [28:55] information structure that doesn't have [28:57] a strong basis. sometimes doesn't have [28:58] any basis in reality, but as Leslie [29:01] pointed out, is self-replicating. And if [29:03] you if it self-replicates long enough, [29:05] it hardens into conventional wisdom. [29:07] >> And that's kind of the problem that [29:08] we're facing. [29:09] >> Yeah. That precision element you talk [29:11] about is is really good. And and the [29:14] statistic part of it, S, isn't it? And [29:16] we saw that example with, you know, the [29:19] projected number of babies that were [29:21] expected to die that that, you know, [29:23] someone who was considered an expert [29:24] from a reputable organization comes out [29:26] and says a statistic, people assume it's [29:30] true. [29:31] >> Yeah. I mean, look, the the entire we [29:33] we're we're we're diverging a little bit [29:36] from the the the journalist, but right, [29:38] the entire narrative of of of casualties [29:40] and fatalities that that uh I and others [29:43] and Gabriel have definitely worked on [29:45] very closely in terms of combatants [29:46] killed and racial. So, we can can have a [29:48] whole other seminar on that. Uh for [29:51] sure. Um, you know, the other point, um, [29:53] you know, I want to raise is that there [29:56] this whole idea that that there's [29:58] actually independent journalism in Gaza, [30:01] uh, that there has ever been independent [30:03] journalism in Gaza, that it hasn't been [30:05] entirely controlled by Hamas before the [30:09] war and during the war. That's also [30:11] something that I find preposterous that [30:13] people aren't 100% aware of this or [30:16] believe that there could be some actual [30:18] independent reporting. And I've heard [30:20] people even say, "Oh, let journalists [30:22] into Gaza now international," not [30:25] realizing that there are many local [30:27] journalists reporting live daily to AP [30:30] and AFP and NPR and other news outlets. [30:33] Is that this notion that some New York [30:36] Times reporter could walk into Shiffa [30:37] Hospital and report what they see freely [30:40] is just preposterous. Uh, and that's all [30:42] been the case the entire war. And that's [30:44] kind of another it kind of cuts through [30:45] this whole idea of this, you know, these [30:47] journalists who are supposedly [30:48] independent uh reporting the truth. Um [30:52] and that's also just a blind spot. [30:55] >> Yeah. No, no, I get that. Absolutely. I [30:57] think it's also relevant though and I [30:58] think that there is space to also [31:01] highlight where they've done this exact [31:03] same thing in other spaces. I think [31:05] because it backs up your argument [31:06] regarding journalists and that was my [31:08] point with the the projected number. [31:10] >> No, absolutely. Agreed 100%. But let's [31:13] go into let's go into that how I mean [31:17] what is the situation for journalists in [31:20] Gaza for those who may not understand [31:23] s go into that more if you can this [31:25] apparent independent journalism it's not [31:28] a free society where you can express [31:31] what you think is it that doesn't exist [31:33] there. [31:33] >> Yeah. You know, I've listened to uh you [31:35] know, Piers Morgan a few times in his in [31:38] his show, and he has one line that he's [31:41] probably repeated about 20 times. Every [31:43] interview he says the same thing when [31:44] when presented with information about [31:47] something terrible that Hamas has done [31:49] or something, he says, "Well, let the [31:51] independent journalists come in and [31:53] they'll can figure it out." Uh, as if [31:56] that's sort of, you know, the the [31:57] catchall. I can I can refute every [31:59] point. you're not allowing journalists [32:01] in, so we don't really know what's going [32:03] on. Uh, but the fact is, if you do, you [32:05] can just you can look at the AP, they [32:07] have journalists in Gaza. There are [32:09] local journalists. I actually put an [32:11] article out about this. There there are [32:13] dozens of local Gazin journalists who [32:15] are reporting daily live to the AP. Even [32:18] just last week, there's reporting in the [32:21] AP from a Gaza journalist and they have [32:23] internet access and live video. So this [32:26] idea that some kind of international [32:27] journalist is going to walk in there and [32:29] uncover some hidden truth is also [32:32] ridiculous. U so I don't know if I [32:33] answered your question there but uh I [32:36] thought that [32:36] >> does have no absolutely Leslie Gabe do [32:39] you have anything else to add about the [32:40] the media landscape say on the ground [32:42] and we're not just talking of course [32:43] about Gaza it's in other areas as well [32:45] but there specifically what is your [32:47] insight into how it operates on the [32:50] ground [32:52] Gabe? Yeah. So, one thing is that if you [32:56] work for if you're stringer for an [32:58] international outlet, you might have [32:59] slightly more protection in the time [33:01] that you're working for them, but you [33:02] need to consider what happens after. And [33:04] very specifically, you need to consider [33:05] your family, right? And not just your [33:08] sisters, parents, etc. You need to [33:10] consider the extended family network, [33:11] right? It's not it's not unheard of for [33:13] people's cousins to be targeted um or [33:15] things like this, including when you go [33:17] outside the Gaza Strip, the chance that [33:18] your family back home might be targeted. [33:20] Akmed al- Katib has talked about this. [33:22] Um there's a there was an independent [33:24] journalist or is an independent [33:24] journalist by the name of Omar Abdu um [33:27] who was beaten and imprisoned by Hamas [33:29] um and beaten very very severely back in [33:31] 2025 or 2024 I believe and no longer is [33:34] practicing journalism. He still writes [33:35] occasionally mostly trying to get out of [33:37] Gaza. Um trying to be independent um and [33:41] to write anything that doesn't fit the [33:42] general kind of approved narrative is [33:45] very difficult. It's difficult at a [33:47] social level, right? because people in [33:48] Gaza are living in a very dire very dire [33:50] very desperate situation. So writing [33:52] things that feel like it might be [33:54] minimizing that or cutting against it or [33:55] something like this can be really [33:56] controversial. But the real challenge is [33:59] what happens when you upset the [34:00] authorities, right? And the secret [34:01] police come for you and attack you. And [34:04] there's many such cases of this whether [34:05] or not it's disguised as calling you, [34:07] you know, an Israeli spy or something [34:09] like this or saying that you're [34:11] secretly, you know, part of some other [34:12] group and then using that as context to [34:14] attack you. So this is this is the [34:16] challenge that people face. It's by no [34:18] means a free society. It has a lot of [34:20] media organizations. It has a lot of [34:22] people who are either journalists or [34:23] self-style themselves as journalists, [34:25] but it's the furthest thing I think we [34:26] could say from a free media ecosystem. [34:28] And to back up Sal's point about what [34:30] happens to international crews that do [34:32] this. There's been very occasional [34:34] things, right? I believe it was either [34:35] an Indian or I think both Indian and [34:37] Norwegian camera crews at different [34:38] points back in 2014 caught specific [34:41] things of a rocket being fired from an [34:42] alley next to the building they were in [34:44] or things like this and very quickly [34:46] were either forced to delete the video [34:47] or quickly escorted out of the strip. [34:49] There's also I believe a previous head [34:50] of OCHA who made a comment about it [34:52] Israeli precision munitions and then was [34:54] basically forced to resign his position [34:56] because he came under physical threat [34:57] from Hamas. So definitely not a free [35:00] information environment and that of [35:01] course it warps everything that happens [35:03] and if you don't know that um you don't [35:05] know that you're looking into the hall [35:06] of mirrors. [35:07] >> Leslie, anything else to add in that [35:09] space? Yeah, I think there's two things [35:11] that are important to add, you know, [35:12] because I think it's important to [35:13] separate between what Gabriel is saying [35:16] of people who aligned with the narrative [35:19] simply because they have to and then the [35:22] Hamas operatives or Hamas media workers [35:26] or however you want to call them and [35:28] their motivations. There is something [35:30] that is important for Hamas, for PIJ. [35:34] You know, we always talk about [35:36] resistance as part of like a violent [35:38] resistance. For them, journalism, you [35:40] know, the label journalism and spreading [35:43] propaganda is part of that resistance. A [35:46] core part of the strategy for them [35:49] >> and they acknowledge that is to [35:51] delegitimize Israel to make sure that [35:54] Israel is delegitimized in the global [35:56] stage. Now, where those people are being [35:59] organized is also very important because [36:01] we talk about the United Nations, how [36:03] we're funding ENRA, how we're funding [36:04] the UN for this and for that. Well, [36:07] we're also happening to be funding these [36:09] propaganda from our western taxes. [36:12] They're all trained, organized, [36:15] coordinated from an NGO that is highly [36:18] funded by the UN, by the EU, Norway, [36:21] Canada, Germany, and specifically the [36:25] ones that invaded Israel, they all came [36:28] from that place. And then if you go back [36:29] to the list of all the different [36:31] journalists, I can tell you at least [36:33] about 15% of the names came from that [36:36] place, specifically the ones that go [36:38] into Western media. [36:42] S, can you tell me about CPJ? [36:45] Who they actually are? What what are [36:47] they trying to do? What is their [36:48] objective? And it clearly ain't telling [36:50] the truth or putting out legitimate [36:52] information to protect journalists. [36:54] >> Yeah. You know, to be honest, I'm not [36:56] I'm not an expert on the CPJ and their [36:58] history and and and and their makeup. I [37:01] mean, I have looked at the board of [37:02] directors. Uh I know there was one uh [37:05] one one I I forgot her name that that [37:07] was not happy and resigned from the [37:09] board after they they they announced [37:11] this this restructuring. But the board [37:13] also includes you know legitimate senior [37:16] senior executives of of corporations and [37:19] media media companies. Um so I I think [37:23] they I think there was someone at least [37:24] had some sense to say you know we got to [37:27] put a stop to it. We just can't have [37:30] terrorists that Hamas admits. I mean, [37:31] who you're not even arguing with Israel [37:33] anymore. You're arguing with Hamas if [37:34] you don't admit agree that someone's a [37:37] terrorist. And I think someone has some [37:39] sense to say, "Look, I don't want my [37:41] name on this anymore. I don't want to be [37:42] a board member of an organization that [37:45] is literally having kamas platoon [37:47] commanders and rocket battalions listed [37:49] on this list. It's it's at some point." [37:51] So, it's good to see that there was some [37:55] something happened. Now, they said they [37:57] were going to finish this up in July. [37:59] Here we are in August. [38:01] They haven't put out a review. Uh so [38:03] we'll see what happens. I'm not [38:05] expecting fireworks. I'm not expecting a [38:07] 180 degree shift. I'm expecting some [38:09] minor shift with a lot of caveats. Uh I [38:12] I wouldn't expect anything great, [38:14] frankly. [38:15] >> Yeah. And Gabe, you spoke about the need [38:17] for these organizations to clean up [38:19] their own backyard. And by the way, that [38:21] was Nika Sun Xiang. Okay. [38:23] >> Who had left who was the the board [38:25] member. Thank you for for bringing her [38:27] up. we should give credit when people [38:28] well I mean regardless of what she was a [38:30] part of earlier actually do something [38:32] but Gabe how do these organizations I [38:36] mean if they're not those that you can [38:38] just right away you know generally [38:41] because we know that they're not trying [38:43] to be legitimate or there's no [38:44] legitimacy to them they're propaganda [38:46] and they're they're running cover for [38:48] terrorists but for those organizations [38:50] that are getting it wrong but there's [38:51] some hope how do you shift [38:55] >> so all and Leslie and Sal feel please [38:58] feel free to step in as well with [39:00] comments. I think one of the biggest [39:02] things that they could have and should [39:04] have done was more due diligence. It's [39:07] >> from from what's written in these [39:08] entries what it looks like is that they [39:10] received a report that a journalist was [39:12] killed. Did min minimal verification [39:13] that someone with that name was in fact [39:15] killed that the incident occurred. Then [39:17] they reached out to the IDF for comment [39:18] which is a good step one and then that [39:20] was it. No trolling through social [39:23] media, no kind of more investigative [39:25] work. Now there's a political [39:26] sensitivity there, right? These are [39:28] journalists. By and large, CPJ is an [39:30] organization made up of journalists, a [39:32] board of journalists or people who care [39:33] about journalists to look like you are [39:36] trying to basically like investigate [39:38] away someone's death and to not put it [39:40] on the list or something like this. You [39:41] can see why there's a natural [39:43] sensitivity to that. There's also [39:44] obviously the possibility or the reality [39:46] of political bias that definitely exists [39:48] as well. Um, but it's a very very [39:50] sensitive subject. So I think there's [39:51] probably a tendency when that runs into [39:54] like Leslie outlined a very very [39:55] coordinated and fundamental uh to Hamas [39:59] and PJ strategy of asymmetric [40:00] information warfare. You tend to get [40:02] this outcome which is just that these [40:04] organizations that are used to dealing [40:05] with cartels killing journalists or [40:07] something like this. They get run over [40:09] by this very sophisticated operation [40:11] that is very hard to push back on in [40:14] kind of a a sensitive and intelligent [40:16] way especially when we're dealing with [40:17] the time lag that we talked about. Now, [40:19] one larger change that I think CPJ did [40:21] discuss and I don't remember how they [40:23] landed on this was I think I think [40:24] Leslie has pointed this out was maybe [40:26] the first to point out. You don't find [40:27] the guys who did media for ISIS on the [40:30] CPJ list, right? But you do find people [40:34] who are from organizations like Alkuds [40:36] today um South Alkuds which is like the [40:39] Islamic Jihad radio station and you know [40:41] CPJ to their credit does say by the way [40:43] these these guys are PIJ affiliated [40:45] media outlet but let's take the case of [40:47] Alkuds today it was run by a guy named [40:50] Wel Abuuna who was part of the highest [40:52] ranking military council in Islamic [40:54] jihad right and then when you look at [40:58] the so I I found who are listed in the [41:00] CPJ or were listed by CPJ who were [41:02] Palestinian Islamic Jihad, there's at [41:03] least 18 where the group itself has [41:05] claimed them, an official poster, [41:07] everything. Of those, 14, at least 14 [41:11] worked at outlets that were already [41:12] known to be PI affiliated. Right? So [41:15] once you start to see that a news outlet [41:17] is run by a very high ranking PI person [41:19] that guys from PIJ's central military [41:21] media units from their central [41:23] information unit from the coordinization [41:24] or mobilization files that all [41:26] throughout the network you're starting [41:28] to see this I think it'd be worth an [41:30] organization like CPJ saying should we [41:32] have a more restrictive or a deeper [41:34] search before we add them to the list [41:36] and then the last thing is just basic [41:37] due diligence is re-checking over time [41:40] keep analyzing these things [41:42] >> because if they had they would have [41:43] found a [41:45] Yeah, to add to that, even before Hamas [41:48] and PJ were releasing the notices, I had [41:50] seen that I think it was about 15 or 16 [41:52] of the so-called journalists were from [41:54] Alaka TV. And Alaka TV is literally a [41:58] designated terrorist, US designated [42:01] terrorist organization. And if you read [42:02] the the the page on why they're [42:05] terrorist organization, it's because [42:07] they recruit children to become suicide [42:09] bombers. That was one of the reasons. So [42:11] here you have an American company, an [42:13] American organization, CPJ, listing [42:17] people who are a terrorist group [42:19] according to the United States. So that [42:22] alone should have disqualified them, but [42:24] somehow it didn't. Um, [42:28] and there some of them are still on [42:29] there and it just it just boggles the [42:32] mind how that could be allowed. how [42:34] board members of of major US [42:36] corporations would want to be on a board [42:38] of an organization that's listing US [42:41] designated terrorists uh on their list [42:44] as as legitimate journalists. [42:46] >> Yeah, the insanity prevails. Leslie, [42:49] close us off. Close us off. [42:51] >> Yeah, I think there's another aspect to [42:53] it which is the collateral damage. um [42:56] you have a lot of female journalists for [42:58] example that get you know those are the [43:00] ones that go uh you know even wider into [43:03] the media because they're female you [43:04] know it's easy to sell that story but [43:07] CPJ has dozens I think about 60 of names [43:12] or more where they both claim that the [43:15] journalist died in quote unquote a [43:17] dangerous assignment while the [43:19] description says that they died in their [43:21] home. So use a little bit of logic and [43:24] tell me how can a journalist be in a [43:26] dangerous assignment while they're in [43:27] their own home. You look at the [43:29] casualties and you'll see like you know [43:31] they weren't the only ones killed. So [43:33] most likely they were not the target [43:35] especially if they're female. Like [43:37] applying a little bit of logic before [43:39] adding these people in the lists. If [43:41] you're going to claim that these are [43:43] people that were killed in duty because [43:45] they're not just claiming we're naming [43:47] any journalist. They're claiming they're [43:49] naming journalists that were killed for [43:51] doing their job. And I think that's also [43:53] a very important point [43:56] >> that that is a crucial point. [43:58] >> Just very briefly add to that. This [43:59] standard that Leslie just mentioned was [44:01] applied to Israeli journalists. There [44:02] were three Israeli journalists or media [44:04] workers who were killed at the Nova [44:05] Festival on October 7th. If you go to [44:07] the bottom of the CPJ's main page where [44:09] they discussed the revisions that have [44:10] been made to the list, those three were [44:12] removed um because they were they CPJ [44:14] reached out to their respective news [44:15] organizations. They said they were not [44:17] on assignment at the time. Um, but that [44:20] standard, as far as I understand, it has [44:21] not really been applied to Gazin [44:23] journalists. Um, and fair is fair, so it [44:26] should be. [44:27] >> Well, and I shake my head, not because [44:28] that standard shouldn't have been [44:29] applied to the Israelis. It should have [44:31] absolutely, but it's got to be applied [44:33] equally and fairly to all. And that's [44:35] the issue, and we see it in every single [44:37] space when it comes to this conflict and [44:39] beyond. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, thank [44:40] you so so much for joining us here. I [44:42] really appreciate your company. Uh, [44:44] brilliant panel. Thank you all so much, [44:47] the three of you, to Leslie, Gabrielle, [44:49] and Salo. Thank you for for all the work [44:51] that you do. I mean, this is one hour of [44:53] your time, but you put in countless [44:55] hours daily to uncover the truth and [44:58] often not for much reward. So, we thank [45:00] you so much. We thank Honest Reporting [45:02] for the incredible work that they do. [45:03] And thank you all, all of you who are [45:05] tuning in. You are also playing your [45:07] part in trying to push back on the BS [45:09] narrative that we see everywhere. Thank [45:11] you for for educating yourself. And I [45:13] hate using that term because A lot of [45:16] people use it and it's weaponized, but [45:18] we really appreciate it. Thank you so [45:19] much. And make sure you follow everyone [45:20] who's on here. You can look up their [45:22] social media accounts, their websites. [45:24] Uh get involved in what they do, support [45:26] what they do, and honest reporting, of [45:28] course, support what they do as well. [45:29] Thank you all so so much. Thank you. [45:34] >> That was the CPJ files recorded live. If [45:38] you take one thing out of it, make it [45:40] Gabriel's [music] [45:41] point about the illusion of authority. [45:43] that when a body with a respectable name [45:46] says something, most people stop [45:48] examining the argument. That's the whole [45:50] mechanism. It works because we let it. [45:53] Thanks to Aaron Milan for moderating and [45:55] to Leslie Kajimovitz, [music] [45:57] Gabriel Epstein, and Solo Eisenberg for [46:00] the work behind this. Most of it unpaid [46:02] and unglamorous. If this was helpful to [46:05] you, subscribe on YouTube, Apple or [46:08] Spotify, and leave us a review on Apple [46:11] or Spotify. It genuinely helps people [46:13] [music] find the show and follow us @ [46:15] honestreporting on Tik Tok x Instagram [46:19] and Facebook. I'm Ben Cherto. This has [46:22] been the honest take and we'll see you [46:24] next time. [46:26] [music]
