Transcript [00:04] UDA and Samaria. [00:19] Who is [00:35] Ambassador? Welcome in our show. [00:36] >> Thank you very much. [00:37] >> Thank you for being here. [00:38] >> You have been ambassador uh for the [00:41] state of Israel here in the Netherlands [00:42] for a full year now. Mhm. [00:44] >> What is your impression of the [00:45] Netherlands? [00:46] >> Well, Netherland as a country is a [00:48] beautiful country uh and with a lot of [00:50] uh you know, life is is is nice and [00:54] pleasant and so on. But I think that [00:55] when it comes to politics and diplomacy, [00:57] >> we are probably in one of the worst [00:59] times in the relation between the two [01:02] countries. [01:02] >> This is a challenging time for is the [01:05] relation between Israel and the [01:06] Netherlands. You said absolutely in what [01:07] way? Well, I think that the the that we [01:10] find ourselves in the midst of a kind of [01:12] a flood of anti-Israeli and [01:13] propalestinian uh um attacks on on on [01:18] media and politics. [01:19] >> Uh we see rise of anti-semitism which is [01:22] always a source of concern for us [01:24] >> and uh we don't always feel that we get [01:28] a full uh conversation with the [01:30] government here on all the issues that [01:32] are of concern to us. [01:33] >> We're going to talk about that later. [01:35] But uh for you being an ambassador here [01:37] [clears throat] for the state of Israel, [01:38] what is your main goal that you have [01:40] here in the Netherlands? [01:41] >> Well, ambassadors uh wherever they go [01:44] and no matter what time we're talking [01:46] about uh aim to create a network of [01:48] connection [01:49] >> and to of course uh work with people [01:52] that are are friendly to our country, [01:54] but also to enlarge the scope of our [01:56] contacts here. Is it [01:58] >> in the field of politics, in the field [01:59] of culture, in the field of academia and [02:02] and and other things and [02:05] that's mainly what we do and that's what [02:07] we do here. The condition is harder. [02:09] Sorry. [02:09] >> Is it working? [02:11] >> It's working but it it's since we are in [02:13] in in a very tough time. Uh it it [02:15] requires more efforts. It requires more [02:18] uh patience. M but we are insisting [02:21] because that's that's the best way of of [02:24] of advancing Israel is really reaching a [02:26] situation of conversation with as many [02:28] people as possible. [02:30] >> So later in this interview we're going [02:32] to talk about uh settler violence as I [02:34] also said in my introduction. We're [02:36] going to talk about how the Israeli army [02:38] deals with that. But first I want to [02:41] talk with you about anti-semitism [02:43] because recent studies show the rise of [02:46] anti-semitism physical but also online [02:49] in the Netherlands. Uh how do you [02:51] experience this? [02:53] >> Anti-semitism in the Netherland is [02:56] growing uh on a day-to-day basis on all [02:59] facets of life. You can see it in [03:01] networks. You can see it in in incident [03:03] that that their numbers keep on growing. [03:06] You see it in the way uh uh universities [03:09] are blocking uh any any um any different [03:12] opinion and and make uh Jewish and [03:15] Israeli students feel unsafe. uh you can [03:18] see it in the fact that uh France [03:20] Timberman [03:22] pronounc anti-semitic statement and you [03:25] see hardly any reaction coming uh from [03:28] from official Netherland and from other [03:30] people into opposition as if it's okay [03:32] as if it's acceptable [03:34] >> because the former uh minister of I mean [03:39] he was a minister of foreign what did he [03:40] say exactly [03:41] >> he basically said that what Israel is [03:43] doing now is basically what the Nazi did [03:46] in Germany Now this is what it's called [03:48] Holocaust inversion and it's defined in [03:51] the IRA definition of anti-semitism as a [03:53] very classical type of anti-semitism. [03:55] You basically blaming us for being uh [03:58] for being as he said I don't even want [04:01] to repeat it. It's disgusting. [04:03] >> Uh Tim Romans is not is not an issue. [04:05] He's he's negligible. He's not important [04:06] anymore. He used to be in a position [04:08] here but he's a known man in the [04:10] Netherlands and the fact that no one [04:12] felt the need to respond to what he [04:13] said. No one feel the need to say we do [04:16] not accept this. This is this is [04:19] anti-semitic. This should not be heard [04:21] in in Netherland. [04:22] >> You think that's a mistake? [04:24] >> That's a big mistake. And I think uh to [04:26] say the least, lack of sensitivity [04:28] >> because this was a plain anti-semitic uh [04:31] remark. Now, if you make this kind of [04:34] statement and no one is reacting, it's a [04:36] kind of an approval and then other [04:38] people who really tend to be more [04:40] anti-semitic will go the same direction. [04:43] So what about you personally? Do you [04:45] experience anti-semitism here? [04:48] >> I I I'm not a good example, you know, [04:49] because I I less than others, you know, [04:52] strolling in the street and so on. Uh [04:55] but but I see it through through other, [04:57] as I said, event that I see in [04:59] universities, which is a great source of [05:00] concern and and and in reaction to [05:03] anti-semitism. And uh my feeling as I [05:06] said is that much more should be done. [05:08] >> What do you think is the cause of this [05:10] rise of anti-semitism? [05:12] Well, uh, the event of the 7th of [05:14] October was followed by a very, very [05:18] well organized, very well orchestrated [05:20] campaign all around Europe and in fact [05:22] all around the Western world. [05:23] >> 7th of October was a trigger moment. [05:25] >> Yes. [05:25] >> Yeah. [05:26] >> I mean, for us it was shocking only few [05:28] days after this horrible attack and [05:29] massacre in in the border of Gaza inside [05:32] of civilian villages and towns in [05:35] Israel. The reaction was not there was a [05:38] very short time of empathy but afterward [05:40] there was a wave of of anti-Israeli [05:42] sentiment as part of this anti-Israeli [05:45] sentiment. There is all of a sudden a [05:47] kind of a license given for people who [05:49] are anti-semite to say what they want. [05:52] >> We have no issue with criticism. We take [05:55] criticism and we have within the Israeli [05:57] society a lot of debate [05:59] >> but we cannot accept when people cross [06:02] the line and go from criticizing Israel [06:05] to basically being anti-semitic. Can you [06:07] give me an example of that crossing the [06:09] line? [06:09] >> For example, from the Jordan to the sea, [06:12] from the river to the sea, basically say [06:14] to you, we would like to see the Jewish [06:16] state eliminated. [06:18] >> You say this is anti-semitism. [06:19] >> This is anti-semitism. [06:21] >> Why would you not Why would you say such [06:23] a thing? Why would you uh take from us [06:25] the legitimacy as a nation to have our [06:27] own country? [06:28] >> It's a statement. It's a demonstration, [06:30] but that's anti-Semitic. Okay? Or when [06:32] people talk about the fact that what is [06:35] happening Israel in Israel is part of a [06:37] bigger conspiracy [06:38] >> of the Jews [06:40] >> that's classical anti-semites that's [06:42] like a cartoon in in in fulcr recently [06:46] >> few of those that basically have [06:48] anti-semitic traits [06:50] >> and no one not in fulcrs not in other [06:52] institution that has to do with [06:54] journalism is saying listen this is the [06:56] line you crossed and now you're into [06:59] >> anti-semitic territory. How do you think [07:02] the government is responding to the rise [07:04] of anti-semitism [07:05] >> on on you know I think on operational uh [07:08] level I think they're doing what they [07:10] can and and you know you should talk [07:12] with people from the Jewish communities [07:14] how they feel about the amount of of [07:16] assistant uh that they receive but since [07:18] most of the world today most of the [07:22] manifestation of anti-semitism is in the [07:25] networks in social networks [07:28] >> and online [07:29] >> you need to put more the government need [07:32] to put more effort into reacting [07:35] publicly clearly about those things when [07:38] they happen. Timurmans is just an [07:40] example. [07:41] >> So they have to react and and say it [07:44] this is anti-semitism because people are [07:47] kind of looking for guidance from their [07:49] government when do I cross this line. [07:51] >> Yeah. [07:51] >> And they should be very clear about it [07:53] and they are sometime I find them to be [07:54] a little bit hesitant. [07:55] >> Yeah. Because since 2025, the Dutch [07:58] government is raising the budget for uh [08:00] the combat of anti-semitism to uh 4.5 [08:04] million euros yearly. So, how do you [08:07] think the government is doing when it [08:09] comes to protecting the Jewish community [08:11] combating anti-semitism? No, as I said, [08:14] I think that there are efforts being [08:15] done on on mayor's level or on the [08:18] government level and as you indicated, [08:20] [snorts] there are bigger budget [08:21] allocated to this and um it's up for the [08:25] Jewish community to say that. But I I do [08:28] identify efforts on the side of the [08:30] government. What I feel lacking is the [08:33] public sphere [08:34] >> because this is where things happening. [08:36] The clear message should come from a [08:38] minister on behalf of the government [08:40] when when statement are being made when [08:42] line are being crossed and I think it [08:44] will convey message not only to the [08:46] public but also maybe to some people [08:47] even in the falcranss to consider if [08:50] this is the kind the type of [08:52] anti-semitic [08:53] cartoon they want to publish in the [08:55] >> speak out more that's why your message [08:57] be clear yes [08:58] >> you've been attending the memorial of [09:01] the uh in Rotterdam of the deporting of [09:03] the Jews uh during the holocaust It was [09:06] a few weeks ago in August. There were uh [09:09] quite a few protesters and people who [09:11] didn't want you to speak over there. [09:14] >> What was it like for you? Because you [09:15] were there. You spoke. [09:17] >> Mhm. Of course. I I didn't have any for [09:20] any second thought of not being there. [09:23] >> Um this is another kind of another level [09:26] in in the in the campaign against [09:28] Israel. Uh because they attempt to [09:31] disassociate the Jewish state from from [09:33] the Holocaust. uh people didn't want me [09:36] to be there for all their explanation [09:39] and excuses. [09:40] >> We of course do not accept it. The [09:41] Jewish community did not accept it and [09:44] and uh I'm very happy to say that on the [09:47] same day there was a lot of people [09:48] around bigger crowd than usual [09:52] >> and the leaders of the community came [09:54] from Amsterdam and other city to [09:55] participate in this basically sending a [09:57] message. this is important for us and [10:00] the ambassador of the state of Israel [10:02] which is dear to our heart should be [10:04] there. [10:05] >> Yeah. [10:05] >> And I was very happy to be there. You [10:07] know the hecklers were shouting and and [10:09] fine but uh but I think it was very well [10:12] taken care of by by the local police. [10:14] >> Didn't you consider for a minute maybe I [10:17] should not attend because I don't want [10:19] this memorial to be tainted by the [10:22] conflict that's going on in the Middle [10:24] East right now? [10:24] >> This is not about me. This is not about [10:26] me staying at home on the weekend and [10:28] doing what I want to do. No, it's not [10:31] about me. It's about a very very kind of [10:33] principle question. [10:35] >> Do we accept the idea that as the [10:38] representative of the sole Jewish state [10:40] on earth, I would be prevented from [10:42] coming [10:42] >> to an event about the Holocaust? And I [10:44] got to say something for people to [10:46] understand. [10:47] >> Ambassadors of the state of Israel, [10:49] wherever they go, one of the first thing [10:51] they do is meet the Jewish community. [10:52] Mhm. [10:53] >> The Jewish community is very very [10:54] important to us. Those are our brothers [10:56] and sisters. Their well-being is [10:59] important to us. I mean, and and the [11:01] connection between us is very very [11:03] close. It doesn't mean that they are [11:05] responsible to every decision made by [11:07] any government of Israel. They are our [11:09] brothers. [11:09] >> But there is a connection. [11:10] >> There's a connection, historical [11:12] connection. Yeah. [11:13] >> And and and at this critical moment to [11:15] allow someone to say from now on we will [11:18] not allow Israeli ambassador if you [11:21] allow it once you'll find yourself you [11:23] know pressed to do it more and more. [11:26] >> And this is a long campaign it's going [11:29] to take a while [11:30] >> and we are ready for it. [11:31] >> But this is a principled question not [11:33] about me and my willingness. It was [11:36] clear to me that I have to be there, [11:37] that I have to speak. And in the end, [11:39] you know, when the hecklers were a [11:40] little bit pushed aside, the message [11:42] came through. It was not about them. It [11:44] was about this day, about Holocaust. [11:47] >> Uh and and you know, this is a memory of [11:49] the Holocaust. We're not talking about [11:51] the state of Israel. We're not talking [11:52] about other things. [11:54] >> Those people, the the the remnant of the [11:56] Jewish community in Rotterdam came in to [12:00] remember the big community that cease to [12:02] exist in the Holocaust. [12:03] >> Exactly. Do you understand the people [12:05] that have trouble uh making a difference [12:08] between legal criticism on Israel and [12:11] anti-semitism? Because you say there is [12:13] there is a there is a line. Some [12:15] sometimes people cross the line. But we [12:18] also hear from people that they say I [12:19] want to criticize Israel but when I do [12:22] it people call me an anti-semit [12:24] anti-semite. [12:25] >> I can tell you how I define the you know [12:28] the difference between the two. I mean [12:30] criticism as I said is is integral part [12:32] of Israeli society. If you go to Israel [12:34] you read the same you know article from [12:36] the right from the left. Uh we have an [12:39] election soon. So it's a very intense [12:40] time and and you definitely have a [12:43] disagreement and even a division as like [12:46] in any other democratic country today. [12:48] But there is a moment in which it it [12:51] slips away from just the government of [12:53] Israel policy regarding the Palestinian [12:56] or Gaza or Lebanon or whatever into the [13:00] Jews under control in the world and the [13:03] media into the the Jewish state which [13:06] the idea of a Jewish state is [13:08] illegitimate into a kind of of let's [13:11] wipe them out [13:14] or kick them out from an event. you you [13:16] see many many occasion which people are [13:18] shouting at a Jews just passing by uh [13:21] and and because they're Jewish. That's [13:23] anti-semitism. [13:25] >> There was um a very interesting report [13:26] from the United States about a member of [13:28] Congress or one who is about to be a [13:30] member of Congress who is very critical [13:32] of Israel, very very critical on of [13:34] Israel and he came to an event and then [13:37] he was shouted at because he is a Jew [13:40] >> and those things are very chillingly [13:42] familiar to us. [13:43] >> Yeah. This is not about the Jewish [13:46] people. This is not the state of Israel. [13:48] This is about the decision of the [13:49] government you're criticizing. If you [13:51] slip into something which goes into this [13:54] sphere of the Jews, the Jewish state, [13:57] the the the actual, you know, role of [13:59] Jews in the world, then you are [14:00] basically [14:02] going towards anti-semitism. [14:03] >> Yeah. It's a slippery slope. [14:05] >> Absolutely. It's a slippery slope. Yes. [14:06] So a few months ago, the Israeli embassy [14:08] in the H was vandalized by a man who [14:10] also planned a planned to set the [14:13] building on fire. [14:14] >> Yes. [14:15] >> How do you feel if something so violent [14:18] happens? [14:18] >> Unfortunately, it happened already few [14:20] times. This was one of the example. We [14:22] have been notified by the way last week [14:23] that after sitting 10 months in jail, he [14:25] was already released. [14:27] >> Mhm. [14:27] >> Um so it wasn't that costly for him to [14:29] try and burn down the building of the [14:31] embassy. Uh but it was, you know, the [14:35] police do its work and we appreciate it. [14:37] And [14:38] >> it's scary. I think [14:39] >> it's scary. It's scary because it get [14:40] closer sometime. [14:42] >> Uh we we try our best to take care of [14:44] our security too. Um it's a shame [14:47] because I think in many cases those are [14:49] people that are misled or or drifted [14:51] with this kind of of wave of [14:53] anti-semitism or or criticism against [14:57] against us. Mhm. [14:58] >> But you know um embassies are on the [15:01] front line [15:02] >> always. Uh and we know that and it's [15:05] part of our work and uh we thank the [15:07] police and the security forces for for [15:09] making their best effort to to protect [15:11] us. [15:12] >> Yeah. So we're talking about a rising [15:14] anti-semitism. We're talking about [15:15] violence against the the embassy in the [15:17] H. [15:18] >> What is giving you hope in this crazy [15:21] period? You know, I as I said, the way I [15:25] see it, it's we are in the middle of a [15:26] very very long campaign. [15:28] >> Mhm. [15:29] >> And it will take a while uh a long while [15:32] maybe to fix all of all all of this or [15:35] or to convince people to really delve [15:38] into realities. [15:40] >> Uh most of the people that speak about [15:42] the Middle East, about Gaza Strip, Patag [15:44] Israel do not know what they're saying. [15:46] Mhm. [15:47] >> They're just taking slogans, put it on [15:50] their t-shirt, put it on their sign, and [15:51] go to the street. [15:52] >> I I don't see, you know, a real profound [15:55] understanding. And I know it's [15:56] confusing. The Middle East is a very [15:58] confusing region, [15:59] >> very very complicated to explain and so [16:02] on and so forth, [16:02] >> but the eagerness and the enthusiasm of [16:05] people going uh demonstrating this will [16:07] take a long time [16:09] >> to change this trend. [16:10] >> Are you optimistic about this? [16:13] >> Very cautiously optimistic. You know [16:15] it's it's a u first of all because it's [16:18] it's a complicated issue. Second because [16:20] there is a certain vibe in the street [16:22] that need to change. Those things do [16:24] take time. I I'm not losing hope because [16:27] I know at the same time that we have [16:29] many friends of Israel in this country [16:31] and I meet them everywhere. Mhm. [16:33] >> Uh, of course, Jewish community is [16:34] obvious, but then of course many [16:36] Christians who are friends of Israel, [16:38] but even, you know, day-to-day people I [16:40] meet here tell me in many cases, uh, [16:43] that they understand, they feel, you [16:46] know, closeness to Israel, they do [16:48] sympathize, but many of them are either [16:51] a little bit afraid to say something [16:52] because unfortunately there is a [16:54] violence in the air from the other side. [16:56] And if you say something uh for Israel, [16:59] your business might be vandalized. you [17:01] yourself might be uh shamed in in in the [17:05] in the media in social network. It's [17:08] scary. [17:09] >> It's very scary. Those people do not [17:11] hesitate to hurt whoever say something [17:13] against them. I know from from [17:15] ministries from companies from from [17:17] different organization that people tell [17:19] me within those organization we do not [17:22] think like the policy of my organization [17:24] but I cannot voice it up. If I say [17:26] something, something unpleasant or or [17:29] you know difficult will will happen to [17:31] me. [17:31] >> Let's talk about the settlers. It's one [17:33] of the most pressing issues at this [17:35] moment in Israel right now, the settler [17:38] violence. We often read also in the [17:40] Dutch news about this about violent [17:42] Israeli settlers that are attacking [17:44] Palestinian villages in the West Bank. [17:46] They set cars on fire. They cause [17:49] physical harm. They force Palestinians [17:51] to leave their homes. And often it is [17:54] reported also in the Dutch media that [17:56] the IDF, the Israeli army is not doing [17:59] anything or is watching uh everything [18:02] happen. Um and this raises doubts about [18:06] the policy of Israel about you know [18:09] what's going on over there about maybe a [18:11] double standard that's being used. Can [18:14] you uh elaborate a little bit about what [18:16] what your viewpoint about this is? [18:18] >> Well, this is first of all is is a [18:21] horrible phenomena. Uh there are bunch [18:23] of people, you can call them hooligans, [18:25] you can call them Jewish terrorists [18:26] [snorts] that are doing things that that [18:28] are appalling and and shouldn't be done [18:30] and they should get uh caught and [18:32] punished. [18:33] >> I have no doubts about that. [18:35] >> And and it might have taken us a little [18:36] bit um a while to to identify the [18:40] phenomena as such [18:42] >> but but there is an acutely acute [18:44] concern in Israel about that and [18:46] awareness that this is happening and it [18:48] has to be stopped. If you if you would [18:50] see a television news broadcast in [18:52] Israel almost on a daily basis, they [18:55] they report that they report what [18:57] happened. They report what how how those [19:00] people take those horrible action and [19:02] how the army is coming in many cases to [19:04] to because to to take control of this. [19:08] Uh also when it comes to bringing them [19:11] to court and punish them punishing them [19:14] um sentencing them there is also you see [19:18] a growing number of action being taken. [19:21] >> Uh but it's very clear I think to all [19:23] Israelis including the government that [19:25] this is unacceptable to say the least. [19:27] >> In some cases it's it's more than [19:30] unacceptable. It's criminal. Hence [19:32] should be taken care uh as as criminal [19:35] activity or terroristic activity is [19:37] taking care. [19:37] >> Yeah. Because if we look to for example [19:40] Khan public broadcaster they say that [19:42] the number of serious incidents of [19:44] nationalistic crime um committed by the [19:47] extremist Jewish settlers in West Bank [19:50] is has been rising [19:53] 63% compared to the same period last [19:55] year. [19:56] >> And however there's only been a handful [19:59] of people who had been arrested uh or [20:02] persecuted for for their crimes. Uh you [20:05] say on the on the one hand Israel has a [20:07] democratic rule of life. They should be [20:10] punished for they their misdoings. [20:12] >> Absolutely. [20:13] >> On the other side you see there is not [20:14] so many people being punished for it. [20:16] How come? [20:17] >> Well probably I mean I I would I would [20:20] agree that probably much more need to be [20:22] done [20:22] >> and it it takes time to understand how [20:24] they work and it take time to sometime [20:26] capture [snorts] them and it takes [20:27] [clears throat] time to like in any new [20:29] phenomena you take uh for a while to to [20:32] understand what we're dealing with. Who [20:33] are the leaders? Who is doing exactly [20:35] what [20:35] >> is this really new this phenomenon? [20:38] >> The the scale of it. Yes. I think it was [20:41] much more marginal as you indicated the [20:43] number are growing up. [20:44] >> Hence, we need to take care of it. Uh [20:47] and uh we should do [snorts] more. I [20:49] definitely I'm not [20:50] >> I wouldn't say I'm I'm happy or [20:53] satisfied with the situation as it is [20:55] this moment [20:56] >> and and it's very clear that things [20:59] should be done in a more intensive way. [21:00] Mhm. [21:01] >> This is disruptive because this is not [21:03] who we are. It's not even and I I got to [21:05] say it's not all the whole settlers. [21:08] When you say settlers, it's a name that [21:09] was given to them uh here in [21:12] >> people living in Judea and Samaria. [21:13] Yeah. [21:13] >> And also East is Jerusalem for example. [21:15] So I'm sure people who visit Jerusalem [21:17] didn't feel that they are you know [21:19] >> so so it's a general name and they have [21:21] a moderate elements in them and more [21:23] extreme elements in them. But the group [21:26] itself that is involved in this activity [21:28] is far smaller than the whole population [21:30] of settlers. [21:32] >> But having said that I think uh this uh [21:36] this phenomena is a troubling one and [21:39] should be definitely dealt with in the [21:41] strongest fashional fashion possible. [21:43] >> Yeah. You say it's a small group of of [21:46] violent settlers between a big group of [21:48] setters. [21:48] >> It's a very very extreme I would say [21:51] militant kind of an extreme group. [21:52] >> How many people are we talking about? I [21:55] don't know. I I I don't know. I I think [21:57] probably I would guess but I don't know [21:59] a few thousands all in all [22:01] >> when you talk about population of a few [22:03] hundred thousands uh of of [22:06] Jewish residents in Judea and Samaria. [22:09] >> So this is not like the whole population [22:11] but this is still you know when it comes [22:13] to doing bad you don't need many people [22:16] >> few can really change the whole [22:18] trajectory of events and that is my main [22:21] concern. Yeah. [22:22] >> By doing so, they're basically pulling [22:25] uh uh the situation in in Judan Samar [22:28] into a certain [22:30] >> situation which is not good. [22:31] >> Yeah. So what is the army going to do [22:33] about it? [22:35] >> Army have to be instructed and they can [22:37] you know physically they can go to a [22:39] place as when they can reach it on in [22:41] time and take those people bring them [22:44] first of all arrest them and then bring [22:45] them to justice. [22:47] >> Uh [22:48] >> this is also it's instruction that they [22:50] get from the government. you should be [22:52] more harsh to punish the people that are [22:54] doing the the bad things. [22:55] >> No, they get their instruction from from [22:58] the chief of staff of the army from the [23:00] minister of defense. It's a government [23:01] decision and the government decision [23:03] have been made and prime minister have [23:05] said it very clearly. So, so they have [23:07] they have the ability and they do it [23:10] quite often and unfortunately they need [23:11] to do it uh recently more because of the [23:14] of the rising number of those events [23:17] >> um to take uh control of the area where [23:20] things are happening [23:21] >> to capture as many of them as they can [23:24] >> and and bring them into a legal process. [23:27] >> Yeah. So, let's look at two recent [23:29] examples that we heard about in the [23:31] news. Uh we got um uh many questions [23:34] about these uh these incidents. In [23:37] August, the settlers surrounded house of [23:40] houses of Palestinian people in the [23:42] village of Kusra in the West Bank. Also [23:44] last weekend or or two weekends ago, it [23:47] was in the news. [23:48] >> The settlers they cut the water, they [23:51] cut the electricity to the house and [23:53] even after many hours the army failed to [23:57] end this siege. This is what the Times [23:59] of Israel reported. Okay. [24:01] >> So, what happened there? Is this clear [24:03] already? [24:03] >> I I'm not I'm not sure I have the [24:06] details of everything that happened in [24:07] Kushra, but this was followed uh [24:09] intensely by the media and there was a [24:10] lot of uh the army came there. Timing [24:13] wise, I cannot um confirm if it was [24:16] quick or it took time. [24:18] >> But uh in the end, what finished the [24:20] whole event was actually the [24:22] intervention of the army. [24:23] >> Uh could we do it better? Probably. [24:25] Could we do it more forcefully? [24:27] Probably. And I think this is a kind of [24:28] a process of realization in Israel that [24:30] they we are dealing with something which [24:32] is not random but happens on a more [24:34] systematic level and hence has to be [24:36] dealt with [24:37] >> quicker. [24:38] >> Yeah, [24:38] >> this is one of the conclusion in that [24:41] sense we are a very open society. Things [24:43] are immediately out there. You see them [24:44] in the in the media and there is a lot [24:46] of debates. M [24:48] >> I I'm being careful into getting into [24:50] all of those details first of all [24:52] because it's always part of of of the [24:55] media dispute in Israel. But the the [24:57] essence is very clear. [24:59] >> Yeah. [25:00] >> Quicker reaction, forceful reaction, [25:02] finishing the event, [25:04] >> taking those people from wherever they [25:05] are trying to attack, [25:07] >> bring arresting them and bring them to [25:08] justice. [25:09] >> Yeah. [25:10] >> That's what you can do with violent [25:11] people. That's that's our duty. The [25:14] other example that we want to talk about [25:15] is uh the the village of Taibbe north of [25:19] Ramala that has also a few a few weeks [25:22] ago been attacked by settlers. [25:23] [clears throat] [25:24] >> Uh similar story of course that there [25:27] was also said that the army was acting [25:29] too late. Is this thoroughly being [25:32] invested by the Israeli army? I yeah of [25:35] course event like this every every [25:37] action taken by the army this is a [25:38] procedure [25:39] >> uh is is being later investigated to see [25:42] whether the reaction was correct whether [25:45] we were there if we were late why we [25:47] were late and so on and so forth and [25:49] what will be the conclusion that will [25:51] help us make be more effective next time [25:53] >> uh and so of course events such as [25:56] Kustra and Ta have been have been [25:57] investigated [25:59] >> uh what's their conclusion it's really [26:02] for the army to to utilize [26:04] for the next time. [26:05] >> What do you think about the the way it [26:07] was portrayed in the media, [26:10] >> these stories? [26:11] >> Um, you mean here? [26:13] >> Yeah. [26:14] >> Well, you know, even events that are far [26:17] less or or completely unimportant are [26:19] overblown in the media here. So I'm [26:22] sorry to say with that um for few [26:25] exception uh the Dutch media is very [26:27] very harsh and in many cases do not [26:30] really delve very deep into fine [26:32] checking and what they publish is is [26:35] very problematic. I'm not surprised. I [26:37] mean uh [26:39] >> this is a very very complex situation [26:43] that we have. there is a tension in the [26:45] region [26:46] >> for for almost three years and it's [26:48] extremely difficult and everything is [26:50] very very explosive [26:52] >> uh and sometime I think in many cases we [26:56] are do our best sometime we're doing [26:58] less than that and we investigate [26:59] ourselves [27:00] >> but you have to understand the whole [27:02] complexity of the situation and how [27:04] difficult it is [27:05] >> why what do you think the media should [27:07] do different according to your your [27:09] opinion [27:11] >> um it would be nice if the media would [27:13] actually pay attention to the Israeli [27:15] side of the story. [27:16] >> They don't. [27:17] >> They in many cases they're not [27:18] interested. [27:20] >> Uh it would be nice if if our uh version [27:24] of what's happening in the Middle East [27:25] will be more exposed in this country. [27:27] >> It would be nice if if Israeli speakers [27:29] can go to universities, they cannot [27:31] because no, they refuse their entry to [27:34] any campus. [27:35] >> Yeah. Uh I I think that instead of [27:39] riding a wave of knowing who's to blame, [27:43] which is us, and knowing who's perfect [27:46] and and and and you know, innocent, [27:49] which is the Palestinian, maybe there is [27:51] a time kind of an adulthood needed here [27:53] to understand that it's much more [27:55] complex that you might think [27:56] >> and things are very very complicated and [27:59] it's important to have two side of story [28:02] and yes there are two side to this [28:03] story. [28:04] >> Yeah. But if we uh look to what Israeli [28:07] politicians have to say about it, there [28:10] was a recent video which went viral [28:12] viral on social media of the minister of [28:16] national security. [28:18] Uh he said in a podcast that he think [28:20] that uh in Gaza targeted assassination [28:24] should be carried out taking down 30 to [28:27] 40 uh people every night. uh not those [28:31] and I'm quoting him who oppose an [28:33] immediate threat but there are people [28:35] there who are not worthy of life they [28:38] shouldn't live they're not even people [28:40] so this is tough things [28:42] >> this is horrible thing to say [28:43] >> to say from a minister who is part of [28:45] the government [28:46] >> he can say whatever he he want you know [28:48] it's a democracy [28:49] >> and uh if we're talking about the [28:51] fullness of the report [28:54] you should also include not you [28:56] specifically but the media should [28:57] include other uh remarks made by other [29:00] politician [29:01] >> saying what they think about this [29:02] statement, saying what they think about [29:04] what happened which they are extremely [29:06] concerned about the you know uh the the [29:10] hooligans in Judea and Samaria [29:12] >> uh but still they were appalled by this [29:14] they were appalled by by this this is [29:16] not the policy of the government this is [29:18] Benvir [29:19] >> speaking in the middle of election [29:21] campaign which will end in the end of [29:24] October [29:25] >> and that's I I have nothing to say that [29:28] will justify this statement [29:30] >> but he's still the head of police in [29:31] Israel. [29:32] >> He's he is the minister in charge of the [29:35] police. He's not running the police. [29:37] There is also a complexity there. [29:40] >> Uh but I think that his opinion are very [29:43] very clear. He doesn't make a secret out [29:44] of them. [29:45] >> Uh they uh they are followed by a very [29:48] small number uh of people in Israel [29:50] which because his party is not that big. [29:53] >> Uh and he's very loud and he's [29:55] campaigning now. I I don't think [29:57] campaign even a campaign could not [29:59] justify such thing. [30:01] >> But still can you imagine that people in [30:03] the Netherlands reading what he is [30:05] saying [30:06] >> seeing all the things that's happening [30:08] over there the violence of the settlers [30:10] against Palestinians they say well if [30:13] Israel is accepting [30:15] such a person as being a minister of the [30:18] government this is saying something [30:20] about how the government is thinking. [30:23] >> So you know it's it's uh perfectly fine [30:25] >> Mhm. to say here or everywhere that I [30:28] don't like the specific government of [30:30] this country or the other. I don't like [30:32] the policy of this government government [30:33] or another uh and and criticis and I can [30:37] tell you again there is a serious debate [30:40] in Israel very serious debate on each [30:43] and every political point in including [30:46] of course this subject. So if you say [30:49] Itamar Berninger said that, what did [30:51] other people including people in the [30:52] government [clears throat] said about [30:54] his statement afterward and what they [30:56] think? The diversity of opinion is much [30:58] bigger and the debate in Israel is [31:01] really lively and intense because [31:04] >> most of Israelis do not accept this kind [31:07] of remark. [31:07] >> No. [31:08] >> And they find it completely tasteless to [31:10] say the least. And and even a campaign [31:13] as I said to election does not justify [31:15] such a statement. Do you think that this [31:17] violence and also the violence in words [31:19] is an obstruction to peace, long-term [31:23] peace? [31:25] >> Peace in the Middle East is is is a [31:27] little bit further away unfortunately [31:29] because uh you know the violence, the [31:30] main violence that still happen every [31:32] day is is in Gaza Strip uh in the area [31:36] controlled by Kamas is in Lebanon [31:38] activity of Bbala. It's of all those [31:40] dark forces that are supported by Iran [31:43] and are very very active and the these [31:46] are the main dangers to uh to to the [31:49] Middle East and unfortunately all of [31:50] them function in an area in which there [31:52] will be no new government in October or [31:54] November or December [31:56] >> and that uh and and the the oppressive [31:59] extremely radical extremely violent [32:02] people with with blood on their hand of [32:04] of a hundred of thousand in the region. [32:06] These are the main challenge to peace. [32:08] Our you know uh over loud over loudly [32:11] political sphere is part of a democracy [32:14] but we are the only one in the region. [32:16] >> Uh so so this this is really uh the [32:19] thing to understand. uh the way Israel [32:22] sometime has been depicted here as this [32:23] is the stumbling block for peace is [32:25] absolutely untrue and you only have to [32:27] read a book about the last 20 30 years [32:29] in which Israel attempt again and again [32:32] and again to come with an offer and [32:34] suggestion and and uh to give this part [32:37] of this solution and all of them have [32:39] been fully rejected by the Palestinian [32:41] side but all of these historical uh you [32:43] know details which are critically [32:46] important are completely deleted all of [32:48] a sudden it's been Israel it's always [32:50] Israel It's always be Israel and a whole [32:52] generation of student in your university [32:54] that's the only story they hear. They [32:56] will come out of universities knowing [32:58] nothing about the Middle East because [32:59] the only thing they heard is from the [33:00] anti-Israeli [33:02] pro Palestinian and some cases [33:04] anti-semitic elements because the [33:06] Israeli one or the other side of the [33:08] story was not allowed in. So this is you [33:10] know when you talk about how how do [33:12] people here learn about it [33:14] >> in in an environment which lack freedom [33:16] of speech in universities only for one [33:19] speech not the other. [33:20] >> So you being a diplomat how do you see [33:23] how do you look to the future? I know [33:24] your job is to be optimistic but but [33:26] there is a lot of problems that Israel [33:29] is facing not only from the settlers [33:31] that we talked about not only about the [33:32] anti-semitism but also in the broader [33:35] Middle East the the military threat. How [33:38] do you look to the future? [33:40] >> As as we always looked to it, you know, [33:42] the the this project that is called the [33:43] state of Israel, our our homeland, [33:46] >> uh didn't start in a very comfortable [33:49] time. We always grew stronger and [33:52] stronger, better and better in time of [33:55] immense challenges. [33:57] >> So, it's very easy to say, oh, you know, [33:59] it's too much for me. I cannot do it [34:00] anymore. [34:01] >> This is our home. This is our only home. [34:02] >> Yeah. And just to remind people, you [34:04] know, if it it exists a few years later, [34:07] maybe few million Jews will find shelter [34:10] there and not end their life in [34:11] concentration camp here in Europe. [34:13] [clears throat] [34:14] >> So, so this is a commitment that we have [34:16] and I feel very very committed like all [34:18] Israeli diplomat [34:19] >> to to the existence of the state of [34:21] Israel and in spite of everything we [34:23] have a tendency to draw from it [34:26] something and and with strength go even [34:28] stronger. Of course, we need to I think [34:31] the whole world is is dealing is [34:33] changing [34:34] >> and the challenges are for everyone for [34:36] Europe, for the United States, for us [34:38] [snorts] uh and we have to as as a small [34:40] country, we have to kind of to to adjust [34:42] and see how we move to the next chapter. [34:44] I'm very hopeful because I think there [34:45] is and you see it every day uh that [34:48] there are amazing people in Israel [34:51] >> with a with a lot of of of energy and a [34:54] lot of commitment and a lot of brain [34:57] power to to devise the future [34:59] >> and I do believe that you know in the [35:01] other side if this will be seen I think [35:02] we we'll be able one day to find a way [35:04] to live [35:06] >> side by side uh the picture and that's [35:09] important to remember is is more complex [35:10] that you see in slogan in demonstration [35:13] learn about it, read about it. It's [35:15] important. [35:16] >> So my last question for you because [35:17] there is a lot of uh people who are [35:19] watching this show, mainly Christian [35:21] people who want to support the Jewish [35:23] people who want to support Israel. What [35:25] can we do? [35:27] >> Not be shy about your opinion [35:29] >> because I know it's sometimes scary. I [35:31] know people don't like to hear it. I [35:32] know that some people will look at you [35:34] and said, "How can you say such a [35:35] thing?" Be committed. Ask the question [35:38] as you did, the hard question. It's [35:40] fine. We will answer them. But in the [35:43] end of the day, remember what is [35:44] important. This is the Jewish state. [35:46] This is a fulfillment of a vision of of [35:48] millennials. And this place is [35:51] flourishing and prospering in the as an [35:53] island in a region which which is [35:55] infested by war and violence. Not all of [35:58] them connected to us by the way, just [36:00] part of it. So, so this is what is [36:02] important to remember to to keep as they [36:04] say in America, keep your eye on the [36:06] ball which is the existence of this very [36:08] very unique country and and just say [36:12] your opinion [36:13] >> and slowly but surely step by step maybe [36:15] the [36:16] >> maybe it will give the vibe will change [36:18] and people will be willing more and more [36:19] to listen. [36:20] >> Ambassador, thank you for coming to our [36:22] studio. [36:22] >> My pleasure. Thank you. [36:27] Foreign [36:30] website. [36:43] [music]
