Transcript [00:04] On October 7, the World Medical [00:06] Association is meeting in Rotterdam. [00:08] There are calls to boycott the Israeli [00:10] medical association. What is he being [00:13] offered? And in Israel, it is already [00:15] all over the news. The upcoming [00:17] elections in an extremely difficult [00:19] time. Netanyahu has dominated Israeli [00:21] politics for almost 20 years. And now [00:24] the big question of the elections on [00:26] October 27 is: Will Bibi Netanyahu [00:28] remain the Prime Minister of Israel? Is [00:31] Israel so divided that everything [00:33] revolves around this one man—for or [00:35] against? Or is it about more? And what [00:38] will these elections mean for the [00:40] future of Israel? We will discuss all [00:42] of this with lawyer Freek Vergeer and [00:44] historian Bart van Dijk from the CIDI. [00:46] You are both very welcome. It is good [00:48] that you are here. One short question. [00:52] According to you, Freek, according to [00:54] you, Bart, will Netanyahu remain Prime [00:56] Minister of Israel after the elections, [00:58] Freek? [00:59] >> If you look at the past, then uh, I [01:01] would think so. [01:02] >> So you say yes. [01:04] >> Yes, [01:04] >> Bart. [01:05] >> I uh, think so too. [01:06] >> Okay. Well, in any case, we are going [01:09] to discuss Netanyahu and the situation [01:11] in Israel, how the vote will go, and [01:13] what the polls are. We will talk about [01:16] that in detail in a moment. But first, [01:18] uh, this: because on October 7th, so [01:20] next week, the general assembly of the [01:23] World Medical Association starts in [01:25] Rotterdam. And there are increasingly [01:28] more calls to boycott the Israeli [01:30] Medical Association. What is it being [01:32] accused of, and what does the Israeli [01:34] association think about that? I asked [01:36] Malke Borrow from the Israeli Medical [01:38] Association about this earlier. Malke [01:45] Borrow, thank you for coming on our [01:47] show. On October 7th, the general [01:50] assembly of the World Medical [01:52] Association will take place. It's like [01:56] a worldwide association for doctors, [01:58] and increasingly, a boycott against the [02:00] Israeli Medical Association is being [02:03] advocated. So, on October 7th of this [02:07] year, there is going to be a conference [02:09] in Rotterdam about the World Medical [02:11] Association. Can you explain what the [02:14] motive is for boycotting Israel on this [02:16] medical level? [02:20] >> Well, that's a very good question [02:22] because really, boycotts and medicine [02:23] should have nothing to do with one [02:25] another. What happens is that there are [02:33] some member associations of the world [02:35] medical association that feel that [02:37] because of the situation in Gaza the [02:38] Israel medical association should be [02:40] expelled from the world medical [02:41] association because of all sorts of [02:43] allegations and statements that they [02:45] make which really have no connection to [02:47] any truth. Hm [02:52] >> hm. But eh in eh last year the British [02:56] Medical Association already boycotted [02:58] the Israeli Association. What are the [03:02] allegations that they made against the [03:04] Israelis? What what were their motives [03:07] to boycott your medical association? [03:11] Well, they feel that we are supporting [03:13] genocide that they have made [03:14] accusations that we are complicit in [03:16] torture and that we don't speak out [03:22] against what what's going on. We allow [03:26] tax on hospitals eh various allegations [03:28] like that. So the critics of the [03:34] Israeli Medical Association they say [03:36] that eh the association is supporting [03:38] genocide or is complicit to genocide is [03:40] looking away from all the crimes that [03:41] are committed in Gaza. What is the [03:46] response of the Israeli medical [03:48] associations to all these allegations? [03:52] So there is no genocide taking place. [03:56] Many people unfortunate either byas or [04:06] as a result of indirect military [04:08] strikes against unfortunately puts its [04:10] citizens in places of danger and we are [04:12] we are very very sad and upset about [04:14] any innocent person who is killed but [04:15] to call it genocide again is just is [04:17] just misleading and and untrue. [04:26] Likewise we know the Israel military [04:28] warns citizens to leave it. They know [04:33] it's going to strike and takes great [04:35] great care not to strike any school or [04:37] hospital unless that is being used as a [04:38] place to store weapons or to fire from [04:40] in which case it loses its protection [04:42] under the Geneva convention. So so [04:47] unfortunately there is a war going on [04:49] which was started by Kamas on October [04:52] 7th 2022 but between that and to say [04:56] that Israel is committing genocide [04:58] there is just no truth. So what about [05:01] the allegation that they say that the [05:03] medical association is looking away [05:05] from all the bad things that are [05:06] happening in Gaza and that is why the [05:08] association the medical association [05:10] should be boyed. So that is also untrue [05:14] . Every time we felt that something was [05:18] done which was really either not [05:19] proportionate or should not have been [05:21] done by the Israeli government or the [05:23] Israeli military, we always spoke to [05:24] them. And on our website, on the [05:28] Israeli Medical Association website, [05:30] you can see a long list of letters and [05:32] statements that weve put out addressing [05:34] these issues and sometimes protesting [05:36] when we felt actions were misplaced. So [05:40] it is just simply untrue to say that [05:41] weve looked away. And it's not the only [05:45] instance that is promoting a boycott. [05:48] We also see here in Europe there is a [05:49] cultural boycott. There is an academic [05:52] boycott. What is the impact of these [05:55] kind of boycotts on Israel society and [05:57] now specifically on the medical society [05:59] ? Yeah. Well, the academic boycotts [06:03] definitely have an impact on Israel [06:05] society. Weve seen and particularly in [06:10] the Netherlands institutions that used [06:12] to work with us and that used to do [06:13] research with our doctors have now cuts [06:15] and and that's just a shame because [06:17] that's just going to harm medicine [06:18] worldwide in the long run. And many [06:27] times it's interesting many times the [06:29] individual scientist on the Dutch side [06:31] will have a close relationship with the [06:33] Israeli researcher and will feel very [06:34] apologetic but his her institution does [06:36] not allow him to continue the [06:38] cooperation. Hm [06:41] >> hm. Do you have a specific example of [06:44] what the impact is of boycotts? You [06:47] mentioned the academic boycott. What [06:49] the impact is? What kind of research [06:51] cannot be done because of this boycott [06:53] of Israel? It's really all kinds of [06:57] research, you know, cancer research, [06:59] neurological research in every medical [07:01] field there are physicians that have [07:02] worked together. Obviously, it also [07:07] impacts physicians who want to go and [07:09] do a fellowship in one of the Dutch [07:10] hospitals. They can no longer do that. [07:13] So, training is impacted. Medical [07:19] articles and medical journals are being [07:20] seen that they're being rejected or not [07:22] being reviewed because they're coming [07:24] from Israeli physicians and conferences [07:26] . Lecturers are being uninvited from [07:30] conferences. Israeli physicians are [07:34] sometimes being closed out of medical [07:36] conferences. So the exchange of [07:39] knowledge on both sides being impacted. [07:43] >> What do you think about this this boy [07:45] that is going on and becoming stronger [07:46] against Israel? What is your opinion [07:50] about this? Again in, in general, I'm [07:53] against boycotts, but certainly in the [07:56] medical field, as I said, first of all [07:58] on very practical level, [07:59] counterproductive. Har medical, in the [08:03] end, is going to affect also the [08:05] Palestinians, the very people that we [08:07] want to help and treat. And also, I [08:11] just feel that medicine and politics [08:13] really need to be separated. Our [08:16] doctors, all they want to do is treat [08:18] people and help people from Yes. In [08:34] Rotterdam next week, this conference is [08:36] going to take place: the General [08:38] Assembly of the World Medical [08:40] Association. And there will be a [08:43] demonstration against boating Israel. [08:50] Is do people isel medicalevel, you know [08:52] , aside from those, you know, highly [08:54] charged individuals who are going to be [08:56] there protesting against us, and those [08:58] who have sent and signed the petition [09:00] against us? I think there are many, [09:08] many people that really don't quite [09:09] understand the situation and are easily [09:11] sedated, and I think exemely for Israel [09:24] usemely important. One last question [09:32] Malke because it is not 100%sure that [09:34] this topic will be a point of [09:36] discussion during the world medical [09:38] association conference next week. But [09:43] it might be it might be thrown up as an [09:45] urgent matter. What would be your [09:48] message on behalf of the Israeli [09:50] Medical association? What would be your [09:53] message to convey to the world eh about [09:55] you know how important it is to [09:57] cooperate with Israel on a medical [09:58] level? Yes. So first of all I just want [10:05] to clarify the the boycott resolution [10:06] to severize with us may not be raised [10:08] but there were already other statements [10:10] and resolutions on the table that sort [10:11] of you know play around it. So the [10:17] issue of Israel will come up one way or [10:19] another. Um, and I just feel again I [10:25] feel that it is very important for [10:27] people to sort of see the larger [10:29] picture, to understand how much our [10:30] doctors both Jewish, Arab, Israeli, [10:32] Christian, Jerusalemities work together [10:34] in the hospitals, treat patients from [10:36] all different faiths and nationalities, [10:38] and that's what they want to do, and [10:40] the level of medical care in Israel is [10:42] very high. Using the field is just [10:58] harmful to everyone, and that's really [11:00] the message we want to convey: that [11:02] medicine and politics just don't belong [11:04] together. Well, [11:06] >> Melkear, thank you very much for coming [11:09] on our show. Now, in this broadcast, we [11:16] are going to talk about the elections [11:18] in Israel. They are coming up in about [11:20] four weeks. Israeli politics is [11:22] actually quite complicated. A lot is [11:24] written about it in the newspapers here [11:25] in the Netherlands as well. You hear [11:27] about it on the news. So we want to [11:29] explain a few things about that. That [11:31] is why you are here, uh, Freek Bart, uh [11:33] , from CDI, uh, with us in the studio. [11:36] First question, actually, about those [11:38] elections in Israel: is that really [11:40] very different from in the Netherlands, [11:42] Bart? [11:42] >> Uh, actually, it's not that bad. Uh, [11:45] just like us, Israel has a uh, a [11:46] parliamentary democracy, [11:48] >> uh, only one chamber. Uh, that is [11:50] actually the big difference. So we [11:52] don't have a first chamber and a second [11:54] chamber, but only a second chamber— [11:55] actually one chamber, a chain of 120 [11:57] seats. Um, uh, another big difference [11:59] is that, for example, compared to [12:00] Germany, they also have an electoral [12:02] threshold, and we don't have that in [12:03] the Netherlands. So, uh, you usually [12:05] won't uh come across very small parties [12:08] there. [12:08] >> So that uh, that does filter out a [12:10] number of parties, meaning you [12:11] >> have slightly fewer uh, small parties [12:13] in uh, in the Knesset uh. [12:15] >> Yes. [12:16] >> As a rule. Uh, but otherwise uh, it is [12:18] just uh, [12:19] >> it looks a bit like our system here. [12:20] Yes. And in the Netherlands, in the [12:23] Netherlands, you have uh, the left wing [12:25] , you have the right uh wing, you have [12:27] some parties in the center. Is that the [12:29] case in Israel too? [12:30] >> Yes, insofar as you can call it that. [12:32] It is uh, you actually have three [12:34] blocks now. You have an antetenia block [12:37] , you have the pronetjau block, [12:39] broad-right coalition. Yes. [12:41] >> Um, and you have the Arab Party, the [12:43] Arab block. Um, and yes, what actually [12:47] connects that antetenia block is also [12:49] literally their uh, resistance to Netu [12:51] as prime minister again. But there is a [12:54] lot of difference inside. So there are [12:56] a bit more left-wing parties there, but [12:58] you really have to see that as, well, [13:00] center-left, [13:01] >> and, well, yes, a bit more center-right [13:03] or far-right parties. [13:05] >> Yes. [13:05] >> Um, [13:06] >> name some examples of those parties. [13:07] >> Yes. If you have, for example, the [13:09] Democrats; they are the most [13:11] left-leaning of what we call the [13:13] Zionist parties. So the non-Arab [13:14] parties, they are actually all Zionist. [13:17] They are, in terms of the most [13:18] left-wing of, for example, Avoda is [13:20] still in there along with Merets. [13:22] >> And Avoda is the party that actually [13:23] dominated Israel for a very long time, [13:25] of course, and basically always [13:26] provided the Prime Minister until, well [13:28] , the [13:28] >> late 70s. [13:29] >> Yes. [13:30] >> Uh, yes. [13:31] >> Well, going into that a bit, talking [13:32] about how you can subdivide those [13:34] parties a bit bit in the elections in [13:36] Israel? You know. Yes, you have an [13:38] Antetanyaho bloc, a Proetanjahoo bloc, [13:40] and the Arab parties. [13:42] >> Yes, [13:42] >> but anyway, these elections are of [13:44] course about more than just the Prime [13:46] Minister, right? [13:46] >> They are about more than the Prime [13:48] Minister. Look, I think one of the most [13:49] important topics regarding Israel is of [13:51] course always the security of Israel. [13:53] Well, that is of course always a big, [13:55] uh, issue. [13:56] >> That is of course about the many wars [13:57] that Israel wages. And in the, uh, yes, [13:59] bloc of Zinist Parties, there is also [14:01] the question of what the situation is [14:03] regarding conscription for the [14:05] ultra-Orthodox? Those are a number of [14:06] topics that are important. A second [14:08] theme that is very important is, of [14:10] course, how you view the Israeli rule [14:12] of law, right, regarding legal [14:14] education. So there is already a [14:16] distinction between those parties in [14:17] that regard as well. [14:18] >> And if you look at the bloc of Pronitt [14:20] and parties, there are parties in there [14:22] that are actually, well, very much [14:24] one-issue [14:24] >> parties, that consider one subject very [14:26] important, right. Right, the [14:28] ultra-Orthodox parties are now firmly [14:30] in Ninjau's camp, but that does come at [14:33] a price, because they demand exemptions [14:35] from conscription for the [14:36] ultra-Orthodox. And another strong wing [14:39] in Nanjan's party is, uh, or in [14:41] Nanjan's bloc are the parties of Nistus [14:44] , Smotri, and Bengvier. Hm [14:46] >> hm. [14:46] >> Those who are more in the religious [14:48] national camp and who therefore demand [14:50] more freedom for what happens in Judea [14:52] and Samaria on the West Bank. So there [14:54] you also see that they actually have [14:56] their own set of demands. [14:57] >> Yes. Well, you are mentioning a whole, [15:00] uh, ball of things—actually a lot of [15:02] important topics in Israeli politics— [15:04] very quickly one after another. If we [15:06] are talking about those legal reforms, [15:08] you just mentioned that briefly in a [15:09] subordinate clause. Explain for a [15:11] moment why this is an issue in Israel? [15:13] >> Well, it feels like a very long time [15:15] ago, of course, but before October 7, [15:18] 2023, this was really a very important [15:20] issue in Israeli society. You actually [15:22] have to go all the way back to, well, [15:24] the beginning of the State of Israel [15:26] when it was founded. Back then, it was [15:28] basically said that a parliament, the [15:30] Knesset, would be established, but [15:32] there would be no Senate, and yet there [15:34] would be an Israeli high court, which [15:36] could, for example, reverse laws. [15:38] >> You actually act a bit like the brake [15:40] on... [15:40] >> that acted as the brake on the knees, [15:42] because otherwise democracy in Israel [15:44] is very firmly anchored and all parties [15:46] support it. But there is a lot of [15:48] debate about: okay, should democracy be [15:50] in charge now, or should we also have a [15:53] Supreme Court? And that is more about [15:55] the question of how we view the rule of [15:56] law and the parties currently in the [15:58] signal bloc [16:00] >> who believe that the Supreme Court [16:01] should have less power and therefore [16:03] should not roll back laws. [16:04] >> Yes. And proonet how...uh...parties [16:07] that say, "Hey, that Supreme Court is [16:08] rolling back all our laws." That is not [16:10] smart. Then we can't govern a country [16:12] either. [16:12] >> Yes. And that led to huge...well, huge [16:15] protests in Israel up until October 7, [16:17] 2023, when everything changed. By then, [16:20] one law had already been passed. That [16:22] higher court rolled it back again in [16:24] January 2024. So they rolled back the [16:26] legal reforms that concern their own [16:28] position. [16:29] >> Yes. [16:30] >> But even now, that coalition is still [16:32] trying to curb the power of the upper [16:33] right. And that could have very major [16:36] consequences for, well, for Israel's [16:38] future. which you can actually change [16:41] laws very simply. And there is one more [16:43] very important point. [16:44] >> Israel doesn't have a constitution [16:46] either. That means there are basic laws [16:48] . Important rights are enshrined in [16:50] them, but you can change them very [16:51] simply. So that would mean [16:52] >> you don't need a three-quarters [16:54] majority for that. Well, [16:55] >> no, just a simple majority. So that [16:57] means you could actually very simply [16:59] change Israel's system. So the one who [17:01] came to power democratically. That [17:03] >> sounds very democratic. Yes, only the [17:05] downside is that you, well, you can [17:06] never fully trust those in power, you [17:08] always need a lockable door. Every [17:10] democracy has it. Every democracy has. [17:13] >> Hm hm. [17:13] >> And Israel is the, uh, yes, does it lie [17:15] with the upper right or should they [17:16] actually be the counter-power? Yes. [17:18] >> Yes. Uh Bart, the orthodox parties, [17:20] what role do they play in these [17:22] elections? [17:23] >> Yes, quite a big one. The Ultodological [17:25] Party actually has two eh SASs that eh [17:28] focus more. The Misrachi eh eh [17:30] ultra-orthodox and the [17:31] >> yeah [17:32] >> eh united Torah Judaism. Because [17:33] actually consists of two parties that [17:35] focus on the Ascanaazi ultra-orthodox. [17:36] >> Hm hm. But in the past they have worked [17:38] with both the left and the right; they [17:39] can go along with both the left and the [17:41] right. Only eh yeah, as Freek already [17:43] said, they are really firmly anchored [17:45] in that pronetalou bloc at the moment [17:47] eh because of that eh point about that [17:49] eh exemption for red men for the [17:50] orthodox from conscription. And [17:52] actually in the anti-lethal bloc eh [17:54] whether it concerns left-wing parties [17:56] to staunch right-wing parties, they all [17:58] have one thing eh they agree on and [17:59] that is that that exemption for eh [18:01] ultra-orthodox must be scrapped, so [18:03] that they must serve too. [18:04] >> They should just go into the army just [18:06] like others; that is what they all [18:07] think. Yeah. So they disagree on other [18:09] points. But that is a common [18:10] denominator. And that is also quite, um [18:13] , eh, important, because the Hedi, eh, [18:15] eh, the Hedi share in Israel is [18:17] currently about 23%. But [18:18] demographically, eh, that will only [18:20] increase in the future, because they [18:22] have more children than more secular [18:23] Israelis. If you talk about 2050, for [18:26] example, they will make up 40%of [18:28] Israeli society. That means that 40%of [18:30] Israeli society is not deployable for [18:32] the eh armed forces. And that is for [18:34] the security theme, which is hugely [18:36] important for Israel, given all the [18:37] threats it continues to have to deal [18:39] with. [18:39] >> eh, it becomes really problematic that [18:41] you simply have a very large part of [18:42] the population that you cannot eh eh [18:44] draw from for conscription. So that is [18:45] a really serious problem. That is a [18:47] problem in the making for the future, [18:48] you say. Yes, [18:49] >> certainly. [18:50] >> But eh, eh, so that is about the [18:52] orthodox eh parties. Um, if we're [18:55] talking about the Arab parties, what [18:57] outlines is the role of these Arab [18:59] parties, one of which is a bit more, [19:01] well, sort of Islamist in terms of [19:04] ideology, and the other a bit more [19:06] secular, uh, socialist, [19:07] communist-leaning. And by Islamist, you [19:10] mean, [19:11] >> uh, that they do consider the role of [19:13] political Islam and religion quite [19:15] important. So they mainly draw voters [19:17] from there who find that important. Um, [19:20] >> they function within the Israeli system [19:22] , right? So they do accept the [19:24] existence of Israel, but they don't [19:26] actually accept its Jewish character. [19:28] So that is also the difference from [19:30] what we call the rest Zionist parties. [19:32] >> Um, if you look at the Arab population [19:34] of Israel, sometimes 20%, you also see [19:36] that actually the vast majority of them [19:38] vote for Arab parties. About 85%. Uh, [19:42] so [19:42] >> 20%of the Knesset is in those Arab [19:44] parties, wouldn't that be the case, [19:46] >> because the turnout among Arabs in [19:48] Israel is always historically low. Yes, [19:50] really, uh, actually every election [19:52] that percentage is very low. Um, if you [19:55] take out the Druans, so people who [19:57] actually go to the polls, of those, uh, [19:59] about 85%voted for Arab parties. If you [20:02] take out the Druans, because they are [20:04] somewhat more Zionist in nature, uh, [20:06] then it comes out to 90-92%who vote for [20:08] Arab parties. So among Israeli Arabs, [20:10] Muslims, and Christians, those parties [20:12] are actually, uh, [20:13] >> the designated parties to vote for in [20:15] the election. [20:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you also have one very [20:18] interesting development now, because [20:20] you have one Arab party that has [20:22] previously possibly been in a coalition [20:24] —before the Nany government was, he [20:25] was in a coalition with all Israeli [20:27] parties. And that party has now entered [20:29] into an electoral alliance with a [20:31] Zionist, uh, Jewish, uh, Knesset member [20:33] from another party—interesting. How [20:35] is that possible? How is that possible? [20:37] Well, that person—that is someone who [20:39] is a police commissioner, Zalović. Um, [20:41] and he has always strongly advocated [20:44] for combating, or helping to combat, [20:46] crime in Arab society; that is also a [20:48] major theme in Israel. There are many, [20:51] uh, criminals murdered in the criminal [20:53] underworld over there. And he wants to [20:55] combat it. So he has a very good [20:56] relationship with, [20:57] >> so he is popular among the Arab [20:59] population. [20:59] >> Yes. And he also says, "Look, they are [21:02] part of the Israeli state. So I want to [21:04] show that we can actually live together [21:06] ." So this is one of the most hopeful [21:08] or beautiful things, I think, in [21:10] politics, that this is also possible. [21:12] And it is also a tactical decision, [21:13] because it might make it easier for [21:15] those Zionist parties, if they don't [21:17] quite have a majority soon, to [21:19] cooperate with this party anyway. So it [21:22] is also a bit with the future in mind. [21:24] >> Yes. But anyway, it is also a bit [21:26] ambiguous, isn't it, with those Arab [21:28] parties, because the Knesset just [21:30] passed another motion that those Arab [21:32] parties might be excluded from [21:34] elections. How does that work then? [21:35] >> Yes. Yes, that is, look, there is a [21:37] committee and it makes decisions about [21:40] this. But the committee is made up of [21:41] the current Israeli Parliament, and [21:43] that is firmly right-wing. So they are [21:45] deliberately going to [21:47] >> try to get rid of those Arab parties to [21:49] send a signal. But in practice, the [21:51] Israeli high court turns it around— [21:52] there they come again—always reverses [21:54] it, and then they are simply allowed to [21:56] participate in the elections. [21:57] >> Is it a sort of election stunt then? [21:59] Absolutely. [22:00] >> Yes, it is, so to speak, making a point [22:02] , isn't it? Just you think that way, [22:03] for example, and other parties too, by [22:05] becoming just a little bit more popular [22:06] , to show: Hey, yeah, we are very [22:08] strong, we really stand up for the [22:09] interests of Israel. So it is a [22:11] political game, but it does come at the [22:13] expense of, well, Israel's image in the [22:14] world, because people only see the [22:16] first part now, right? They see now: [22:18] Arab parties excluded. How is that [22:20] possible? And they won't hear from you [22:22] anymore once they are back. So it is a [22:24] very stupid choice, [22:25] >> but it is also how the whole system was [22:27] built in the first place. And that is [22:28] also why the role of the high court is [22:30] actually so important. [22:31] >> Bart, how do things stand in the polls? [22:33] What, what is going to happen on [22:35] October 27th? [22:35] >> The way you stand now, a huge stalemate [22:37] , right? So both blocs— [22:39] >> a bit of Dutch Dutch in the blocs—if [22:41] you don't count the Arab parties for a [22:43] moment, uh, that no cooperation with [22:45] them is going to take place yet, they [22:47] both end up around 52. [22:49] >> Uh well, you need 61 for a majority. Uh [22:52] so they are really still far from that. [22:53] So [22:54] >> yeah, that is going to be incredibly [22:56] difficult. Uh but as Freek said earlier [22:58] , those polls in Israel are notably [22:59] unreliable. [23:00] >> Unreliable. Okay. Not an Israeli one [23:03] where the balance suddenly, uh, right [23:05] before the election, uh, suddenly [23:07] swings to one side or the other, yeah, [23:09] uh. [23:09] >> Also depending on what is going to [23:11] happen up to and including October 27th [23:13] . [23:13] >> Yeah. [23:13] >> Um so yeah, you really don't know yet. [23:15] You can't cast a crystal ball on it yet [23:17] . [23:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything to say [23:20] yet, or is it really a fifty-fifty [23:22] chance? Well, that depends on who you [23:24] ask, which pillars you ask, because you [23:27] have right-wing pillars that make them [23:29] think the bloc isn't going to get [23:30] bigger, but those are media that are [23:32] largely controlled by Netanyahu. And [23:35] there are left-wing [23:37] >> polls that still think there might be a [23:39] majority for, well, for the Zionist [23:41] bloc led by, uh, Ienkot of Yashar's [23:43] party; he is currently the largest [23:46] party in that regard. [23:48] >> But it still seems like a neck-and-neck [23:50] race. But in the past, we often saw [23:52] that Netanyahu won in the end anyway, [23:56] >> because people still think at the last [23:58] moment: "Yeah, who has been the leader [24:00] all this time?" And Netanyahu is [24:02] >> in the media a lot because of that, and [24:04] that is also one of the objections [24:05] against Ienkot, the leader of the [24:07] opposition, that he campaigns very [24:08] little. Hmm [24:09] >> hmm. Is not that visible. Visible. [24:12] >> But before I want to go on about you, [24:14] because another little difference, so [24:15] to speak, between Dutch politics and [24:17] Israeli politics is that in Israel [24:19] after the election, when the result is [24:21] known, they have, uh, only a very short [24:23] period to multiply, and if that doesn't [24:24] work, then there are elections again, [24:26] and sometimes even four times in a row [24:28] or something. How does that work? [24:30] >> Well, they have four weeks. So someone [24:32] is appointed, then they have four weeks [24:34] , and then we can get one extension of [24:36] two weeks, so six weeks in total, and [24:37] then it's over, and then someone else [24:39] can be appointed. They can try again [24:41] too. They get the same term. [24:43] >> So, a bit like two months. [24:45] >> Yes. Or three months. And then there [24:47] can just be a new election. [24:48] >> Is that also the expectation now, that [24:50] there will be election after election [24:51] after election again? [24:52] >> Yes, that is certainly one of the [24:54] scenarios that, uh, especially now with [24:55] the current polls—on average, you [24:57] just see in the polls—they are really [24:59] just stuck. Yes, [25:00] >> that is, uh, the case. What also plays [25:02] a role—let's say Israeli politics— [25:04] is that you have those small parties [25:06] and you have that electoral threshold, [25:08] but if those small parties decide to [25:10] participate anyway, those votes [25:12] disappear. If they don't reach the [25:13] threshold, because then the votes [25:15] disappear from the system. So they can [25:17] also influence which bloc gets bigger. [25:19] >> And sometimes, and that is another [25:20] difference, [25:21] >> they can also form an electoral [25:22] alliance in that way. That is very easy [25:24] to do in Israel. That way, they can [25:26] survive. That is also a difference. So [25:28] that can also have an influence [25:29] sometimes. [25:30] >> Yes. Well, anyway, we just have to [25:31] follow that a bit. We are going to talk [25:33] about Net and you, because at the [25:35] beginning of the broadcasts you already [25:37] explained that his person actually [25:39] plays a very big role in these [25:40] elections. Are these elections really [25:42] about whether Bibe and you remain Prime [25:44] Minister? Yes or no, Bart. [25:46] >> In a certain sense, yes. Many Israelis [25:49] have a bit of a feeling that the [25:50] country is at a political crossroads, [25:52] so to speak. So, are we going to [25:53] continue with these lines, so with Bibi [25:55] and uh and everything that goes with it [25:57] too? Because his coalition will remain [25:59] more or less unchanged. Uh, or are we [26:01] uh, going to try uh, to take a [26:03] different path? [26:04] >> Uh, can we uh, improve the relationship [26:07] with Europe and the NVS again? Uh, so [26:09] there really is a lot at stake for [26:11] Israel. Um, and that is indeed really [26:14] hinged on continuing with BB or [26:16] ushering in a new era. But can you try [26:18] to outline that, so to speak, for the [26:20] critics of Net and you? What are their [26:23] problems with Net and you as Prime [26:24] Minister? Well, that he has been in [26:26] power too long. Uh, but also that he [26:28] simply has no responsibility regarding [26:30] October 7th. And as Freek already said, [26:32] for [26:33] >> many in that party it is really [26:35] unacceptable that he uh, under his [26:37] administration, of course, October 7th [26:39] took place. Um, and indeed within the [26:41] security services, within the army, [26:43] practically everyone has had to step [26:45] down. But he has never taken [26:47] responsibility. He says: "It's [26:48] everyone's fault except mine. I acted [26:50] correctly, but I was informed too late. [26:52] I was poorly informed." Yes, because he [26:54] is being accused of having the signals. [26:56] The Shinbet or the Mossat or something [26:58] said, "Guys, it's no coincidence, [26:59] because it's election time, so now all [27:01] of this is coming out." That is no [27:02] coincidence. Uh, but the fact is that [27:04] he has never taken responsibility. He [27:06] also has independent investigations. [27:08] After that, he blocked it. [27:09] >> Why? [27:10] >> Uh, well, because possibly one of those [27:13] outcomes is that he obviously acted [27:15] wrongly. That he didn't take the [27:17] warning too seriously or whatever. Uh, [27:19] but in any case, that it would turn out [27:20] negatively for him if that [27:21] investigation came out. [27:22] >> Yes. And you see, let's say he has [27:24] actually been fighting a battle against [27:26] that high court for a very long time. [27:27] Because he is basically saying, "Yeah, [27:29] uh, if such an investigation comes to [27:31] Israel, then it will be led by a judge [27:32] from the IS high court." And he says: " [27:34] Yes, but for example, you can't trust [27:36] that investigation, because they are [27:37] trying to... [27:37] >> that is also a bit politically biased [27:39] perhaps. [27:39] >> That is politically biased." And he [27:41] says: "That is that leftist power that [27:43] cannot stomach the fact that we are in [27:44] power." Does he have a point with that? [27:45] Well, the point is, look, uh, I think [27:47] he has a point that after the...uh, in [27:49] the Supreme Court and the civil service [27:51] , you naturally see that a certain type [27:53] of person works there who I think are a [27:55] bit more left-wing and liberal. [27:57] >> But it is also very important because [27:59] it is the only balance to limit his [28:01] power. And he is actually sowing a sort [28:03] of division. [28:04] >> And you see, another camp is doing just [28:06] as much of that, you know. And because [28:07] of that, you see that those two camps [28:09] are coming to stand opposite each other [28:11] . That is perhaps even more dangerous [28:13] for Israel's future than all the [28:14] enemies that threaten Israel from the [28:16] outside. Well, speaking of that threat [28:19] from the outside...Netan also allowed [28:21] Qatar and, unfortunately, Turkey to [28:23] give money to Hamas for years. Is that [28:26] also an issue at play now, that he is [28:28] criticizing it—how could you ever [28:29] have assessed that? [28:30] >> Yes, but I think that is indeed part of [28:32] that broader context. Look, he was [28:34] simply responsible for that policy. I [28:37] think a lot of Israel understood that [28:39] policy, didn't they? [28:40] >> There was more fear of threats from [28:42] other places than Hamas. And his [28:43] strategy, and that of the army as well, [28:45] was: we isolate Hamas and ensure they [28:47] get some benefits now and then, and [28:49] then the problem stays there. [28:51] >> That has gone wrong now. Yes. And then [28:53] you can—now comes the question of [28:54] blame. Yes. Isn't that simply your [28:56] fault? You don't know that. But he did [28:58] have the responsibility, because he was [28:59] the Prime Minister all that time. So he [29:01] is primarily responsible for what [29:02] happened in his previous term, for all [29:04] lines. And now he says: "No, that [29:05] wasn't my idea. They didn't explain [29:07] that to me properly." But he remains [29:09] responsible regardless, and he is [29:11] certainly avoiding that now. [29:12] >> Yes. Now, if we also look at the [29:15] coalition Netano is currently in, where [29:17] he is at the helm, we see that [29:19] mentioned very often in our own media [29:21] here in the Netherlands regarding a [29:23] number of ministers, Benger and Smotter [29:25] . These are men who also regularly come [29:28] under fire because of extreme [29:30] statements they make. What influence do [29:32] these ministers have on the current [29:34] cabinet? Well, they have actually been [29:36] given a sort of free hand when it comes [29:37] to Jude and Samaria or the West [29:39] Curaçao, whatever you want to call it. [29:43] Um, so there we also see enormous [29:45] escalations in that area, with [29:47] incidents where Jewish extremists are [29:49] basically given a free hand there to go [29:51] on a rampage and misbehave. [29:55] >> Um, and there is another piece about [29:57] that too. Ultimately, the Prime [29:58] Minister is responsible for his cabinet [30:00] policy. Hm [30:01] >> hm. And his line is actually to look [30:03] the other way, right? So he... [30:05] >> But that works a bit differently in [30:07] Israel, doesn't it? I understood that [30:08] it is not the case that a cabinet [30:10] necessarily has to speak with one voice [30:12] , but that ministers can also simply [30:14] say things during election time that [30:16] suit their agenda. [30:17] >> Yes, but ultimately it is about the [30:19] person ultimately responsible as well, [30:21] towards the outside world, right? So he [30:23] is the Prime Minister of the country. [30:24] His government, for which he is [30:26] ultimately responsible, implements this [30:28] policy. [30:29] >> Hm hm. And he has actually barely taken [30:32] action against it. Not in words either. [30:35] Hm [30:36] >> hm. [30:36] >> So, yes, he can certainly be blamed for [30:38] the fact that the situation there has [30:40] really [30:41] >> escalated enormously. [30:42] >> Yes. Well, we are of course talking now [30:45] about the criticism in Israel regarding [30:47] the current Prime Minister. Yet, there [30:49] is also a very significant part, a very [30:52] large part of the Israelis who actually [30:54] say, "Rak Bibi," as they say there: [30:56] only Bibi should be the next Prime [30:58] Minister. How can you explain that? [31:00] What do they see? Why do they consider [31:02] it important that Neto must remain your [31:04] Prime Minister? Well, [31:05] >> he is seen as the strong man. Um, [31:07] really has been in power for a very [31:08] long time. The man with experience. [31:10] That is somewhat lacking in the [31:11] opposition. A clear leader figure who, [31:14] uh, is a real prime prime candidate, [31:16] for example. And um, the point, uh, of [31:18] the fight against the Iranian regime [31:21] and its terror proxies. [31:22] >> And that is actually something that is [31:24] widely supported within Israeli [31:26] politics. So, uh, so actually, [31:28] >> nobody is against the war [31:29] >> either. In the anti-material bloc, you [31:31] also see that there is broad support [31:33] for, for example, how the conflicts [31:34] with the Iranian regime were fought. [31:36] That something had to be done there. [31:37] Lapid, uh, and Co. stood behind that [31:40] too. Hm [31:40] >> hm. Um, the way the war in Gaza was [31:43] fought, for example, or how long, uh, [31:45] it was fought, there are differing [31:47] opinions on that. But at the core, it [31:50] is that a fight [31:51] >> had to be fought, that there had to be [31:52] fought; look, even if, uh, Avodan had [31:54] still been in power, they would have [31:56] started a war after October 7th as well [31:58] , and also against Lebanon after the [32:00] shelling. So there is some—well, you [32:01] can hardly call it consensus—on that, [32:03] but there is indeed support that it is [32:05] necessary to [32:06] >> wage those, uh, wars. [32:08] >> Yes, because, uh, Freek, um, um, how [32:11] does that work, uh, according to you, [32:14] so to speak? Because a large part of [32:16] Israel is indeed behind that Prime [32:17] Minister. Yes. [32:19] >> Uh, I mean Netu. Um, [32:22] >> are there alternatives to Netu? Serious [32:25] alternatives. Bart just said, "Yeah, in [32:27] the opposition you don't really have [32:29] that." No, actually, if you look [32:31] closely, uh, look, it is now, uh, Gy [32:33] Iencot. So the position leader is now, [32:35] for the past month or so. It [32:37] >> belongs to Jashar. So that is a [32:39] relatively new party. It was just [32:40] founded. Ezenkot used to be with [32:42] another party, but split off from there [32:44] and has now started charting his own [32:46] course. And you see now, since the last [32:48] few months, he has actually become a [32:49] sort of opponent of this and the [32:51] proponent of you. What can you outline [32:53] in one sentence? What does Iencot stand [32:55] for? What is his politics? [32:57] >> The same right-wing voice. Uh, I [32:59] actually think that at first, uh, Liod [33:01] initially had a strong right-wing voice [33:03] , but he did distance himself from [33:05] those extreme uh, like Bengavier. He [33:07] distances himself firmly from them. But [33:09] he is also critical, for example, right [33:11] ? You wouldn't hear him say ' [33:13] Palestinian state' anytime soon, would [33:14] you? [33:15] >> Not even since October 7th. So [33:17] >> he also has a strong right-wing voice. [33:19] Only, yeah, the criticism is that Ninja [33:22] has, well, let's say, sold his soul by [33:24] saying he is going to cooperate with [33:27] ultra-orthodox parties, and for that he [33:29] has to make concessions, right, that [33:31] they don't have to do military service, [33:34] and cooperate with, well, those flank [33:36] parties, and they want free rein in [33:38] Samaria for that, [33:40] >> and they also want a lot of power, [33:41] >> and meanwhile, he can chart his own [33:43] course, and he has always done that, [33:45] but the criticism is, yeah, that he [33:47] does this, that that isn't possible [33:49] because he doesn't take into account [33:51] >> the real problems that exist here. [33:53] >> Okay, but so you have, uh, uh, [33:55] >> which other opposition leaders do you [33:57] have as potential prime ministerial [33:59] candidates? [33:59] >> Well, you had Bennet first, uh, that's [34:01] also a political one, a political one [34:02] is still in the running, right? [34:03] >> Yes, this is true, but he is a [34:05] political nomad, because he once [34:06] started out in a party like Smotri's, [34:08] so to speak. Uh, after that it became a [34:10] solid right-wing party, but then he [34:11] entered into a coalition with an Arab [34:13] party. He [34:15] >> was spat out by the right and now he [34:17] works with you, Mr. Piet, [34:19] >> and he was high in the polls until [34:21] Ijzenkot came onto the scene. And now [34:23] you see that he is pinning on somewhere [34:24] between 10 and 15 seats and it is going [34:26] down even further, so to speak. So [34:28] >> yeah, so the battle is a bit between [34:30] Ien Col and you. Is that right? [34:32] >> Yes. Uh yes, more or less. You do have [34:35] a sort of outsider, uh uh Avid by [34:37] Lieberman from uh Jrel Beteno, a party [34:40] that traditionally uh mainly attracted [34:42] Soviet uh uh Jews. Uh, but uh, he might [34:46] also uh, in that anti-anti-national [34:49] bloc, if it eventually tries to form a [34:51] coalition, he might well demand [34:53] >> uh, at uh, at Ienkot, 'I want to become [34:56] Prime Minister.' [34:57] >> Yes. Uh, it is a, it is a hawk. So uh, [35:00] >> a hawk means an attacker [35:02] >> who, yes, that he is going to take a [35:04] hard line. Uh, and that could very well [35:06] be a demand from him. [35:07] >> But if one of those opposition uh [35:08] leaders, you know, those names we just [35:10] heard mentioned, if he becomes leader, [35:13] what changes then in the war Israel is [35:15] waging now, in the politics that uh, [35:17] Israel is doing? [35:18] >> Well, if the anti-anti-national [35:19] coalition uh were eventually to provide [35:21] the Prime Minister in a coalition, then [35:23] you will see a different West Bank [35:25] policy than now. Because [35:27] >> in the sense of, well, [35:28] >> because then forces like Smotriang Bank [35:30] 4 will drop out. [35:31] >> But will there be two-state solutions [35:32] or something then? [35:33] >> No, no, we don't need to worry about [35:34] that. Look, that is also Europe uh, and [35:36] Israel. There is a huge gap between [35:38] them at the moment. Um, in Israel they [35:40] kind of have the idea that in Europe [35:42] they’ve gone crazy, because all they [35:44] talk about there is the two-state [35:46] solution. Uh, but after October 7th, [35:48] that is actually something unthinkable [35:50] in Israel among the majority of the [35:52] population. [35:52] >> But what is actually going to change on [35:54] the West Bank then? Well, that those [35:56] escapades and that misconduct by [35:58] extremists there will probably be [36:00] curbed, right? So, uh, those massive [36:03] escapades there. But you shouldn't [36:05] expect a Palestinian state to suddenly [36:07] emerge from that. Even though that is [36:09] actually what Netu is trying to make [36:11] clear in his campaign right now. And he [36:13] really capitalizes on that fear factor. [36:15] >> Uh, and he says: "Yes, if you choose [36:17] that icy cult, then you choose a [36:18] Palestinian state." That is his [36:19] campaign at the moment. [36:20] >> Yes. Yes. But anyway, the West Bank is [36:22] therefore, uh, something that would [36:23] change. What else would change? Uh, if [36:25] one of the opposition leaders, uh, [36:27] becomes the prime minister. [36:28] >> I think it's about how the West views [36:30] it, because, uh, look at Prime Minister [36:32] Net, how he, uh, and certainly his [36:34] coalition partners, often don't really [36:36] think about what our diplomatic course [36:38] should be and how we keep our allies [36:40] close to us. I think another party [36:42] would be much more sensitive to that. [36:43] So, [36:44] >> and so on, [36:45] >> but then they think, "Finally, the [36:46] river and you are gone." Now there is [36:48] room for discussion. [36:49] >> Now there is room for discussion, and I [36:51] think that rule of law in Israel will [36:52] also be in better hands. Those legal [36:54] reforms will therefore not go ahead. [36:56] And I think that is an important point [36:57] for Europe too, isn't it, because it [36:59] becomes, you know, we also feel a [37:00] kinship with Israel because it is also [37:01] a democratic constitutional state. So I [37:03] think those ties will be strengthened [37:05] there as well. [37:05] >> How, how would it work then? Well, it's [37:07] a bit like reading tea leaves, of [37:09] course, isn't it? But what was the [37:10] situation? What could it mean for the [37:12] ties between the Netherlands and Israel [37:14] ? Because those have cooled a bit in [37:15] recent weeks as well. Um, the [37:17] Netherlands has issued an import and [37:19] trade ban against products from the [37:21] West Bank, the Golan Heights, and East [37:23] Jerusalem. Israel subsequently sent [37:25] Dutch diplomats home. [37:27] >> Yes. [37:28] >> Um, is that going to get better then? [37:30] >> I think that would get better too. [37:32] There are also parties that have [37:33] clearly emphasized this is a temporary [37:35] sanctions decision. The VVD certainly [37:37] said that. And they said it too. So if [37:39] that also means that if the government [37:41] takes steps there, then it can also be [37:43] stopped. So I think that those [37:45] relations, you will see them improve. [37:48] Um, only in the long term you see that [37:50] Israel is just becoming increasingly [37:52] right-wing, so to speak. Um, in the [37:54] long term it doesn't look [37:56] >> very [37:57] >> positive. But I do think that this [37:59] could immediately offer a change. [38:01] >> Yes, we are moving a bit towards a [38:03] conclusion. Bart, uh, do you expect [38:05] that the opposition parties, the Antina [38:08] Netano parties, that they could unite [38:10] after such an election result? He [38:13] >> has, of course, done this before, when, [38:15] uh, when Benet became Prime Minister, [38:17] with that Arab party indeed included. [38:19] It is possible. However, what binds [38:20] them is also why it is called the [38:22] anti-tetheral bloc. They mainly want to [38:24] get rid of him. But there is so much [38:26] difference between, uh, how they want [38:28] to tackle other problems that it [38:30] becomes very difficult in those areas [38:32] to [38:33] >> get a very stable coalition out of it [38:35] that will last for four years. So, [38:37] >> uh, especially if an Arab party or [38:39] multiple Arab parties are needed to [38:41] secure a majority. Yes, then it becomes [38:43] really difficult to find a stable [38:44] coalition. So that is, uh, not that [38:47] easy. [38:47] >> An exciting time. Will it indeed be an [38:49] exciting time after October 27th as [38:51] well? Yes, perhaps that will lead to [38:53] the same experiment as the Netherlands [38:55] with a minority cabinet, where Arab [38:57] parties, for example, would tolerate [38:59] such a Sionist coalition. [39:00] >> That is an exciting one in times of war [39:02] . [39:02] >> And look, the beauty of politics is [39:03] that you never know how it will turn [39:05] out. It was just mentioned, yes, how [39:07] that two-state redemption is going, for [39:08] example; Liberman was just mentioned [39:10] too. He has also said a few times now [39:12] that maybe we should transfer a part of [39:14] the West Bank to, uh, Jordan. [39:17] >> Hm. And so on, and ensure that a [39:19] solution is found. So you never really [39:20] know what kind of solutions will emerge [39:22] or how things will turn out. [39:23] >> Hm hm. [39:24] >> Um, you always have to remain hopeful, [39:25] don't you? So that is very important, I [39:27] think. [39:28] >> Yes. Yes, we will hold on to that, in [39:30] any case, and take it into account. [39:31] Thanks for your explanation, and of [39:32] course, we will continue to follow it [39:34] all with interest. Freek Vergeer, Bart [39:36] van Dijk, many thanks to both of you. [39:37] And now at home, thank you also for [39:39] watching this broadcast of Christen [39:40] voor Israël. Now you can stay up to [39:42] date on current events in Israel. Go to [39:44] our website cvi.nl/actueel. There you [39:47] will find all kinds of interesting [39:49] articles, as well as these broadcasts [39:51] and our podcasts. Once again, many [39:52] thanks for watching, and see you next [39:54] time. Yes.
