Transcript [00:14] Hi friends and welcome to the 1840 [00:16] podcast where each month we explore a [00:18] different topic balancing modern [00:19] sensibilities with traditional [00:21] sensitivities to give you new approaches [00:23] to timeless Jewish ideas. I'm your host [00:26] David Bashevkin and today we are sharing [00:29] one of our episodes from our Talmud [00:32] daily program, our interview with my [00:34] dear friend Leel Lieovitz. This podcast [00:37] is part of a larger exploration of those [00:39] big juicy Jewish ideas. So be sure to [00:41] check out 1840.org. That's 18fty.org [00:45] where you can also find videos, [00:46] articles, recommended readings, and [00:48] weekly emails. You may have already [00:51] heard about our Talmud daily program. It [00:54] is a daily 10 minutes a day that is a [00:57] tour of the entire Babylonian Talmud. If [01:00] you've ever been curious about the [01:01] issues, ideas, and themes that come up, [01:03] trackctate by trackctate going through [01:05] the entire Talmud, you should really [01:07] check out Daily.org. And you'll get an [01:10] email right into your inbox for daily [01:13] learning, 10 minutes a day, really easy [01:15] video, audio, a little uh essay digest [01:19] with references. It's a fantastic way of [01:21] familiarizing yourself with the major [01:24] ideas that compromise the Talmud, which [01:26] is the bedrock of all Jewish thought and [01:28] practice. How on earth did this happen? [01:32] Why is 1840 entering the world of [01:35] Talmud? The truth is, it's a good [01:36] question. But to me, what differentiates [01:39] 1840 is that our conversations are [01:43] really try to be substantive. They try [01:45] to be built on a foundation of serious [01:47] learning anchored in traditional Jewish [01:50] thought, traditional Jewish practice. [01:51] And there's no other way to do that than [01:54] through the doorway of the Talmud. Now, [01:56] I consider myself extraordinarily lucky. [01:59] I studied more or less for 10 years just [02:02] Talmud. And I consider myself very lucky [02:04] to do that, that I was able to do that, [02:06] that I had the opportunity to do that. [02:08] Most people did not. My parents did not. [02:10] My father did not. My mother did not. [02:12] Most people from a previous generation [02:13] and many people today don't really have [02:16] the education and the background to [02:17] really dive into everything that the [02:20] Talmud is about. And the first person [02:22] who kind of drew me in to talk about [02:24] Talmud to a wider audience was our guest [02:27] today, Leel Lieovitz. Now Leel is really [02:31] one of my dearest friends. I have so [02:33] much gratitude to him cuz I never would [02:35] have, you know, nobody who spent time in [02:37] yeshiva goes up and is like, you know [02:39] what, I should really teach Tom to the [02:41] masses. It's really challenging and it's [02:43] very difficult and to find the right [02:45] doorway to open it up to a wider [02:47] audience was something that I never [02:50] thought I would be involved in. And the [02:51] person who kind of drew me in and been [02:53] dancing together ever since is Leel. [02:55] Leel is the editor at Tablet. Uh he is a [02:59] major Jewish thinker. He's an amazing [03:01] person and I'm so excited to introduce [03:03] my conversation with Leah Lieovitz about [03:06] all things Talmud, the importance of [03:09] Talmud daily, the importance of everyone [03:12] really finding a substantive foundation [03:14] for their own Jewish life. Without any [03:17] further ado, here is our conversation [03:19] with Leel Lieovitz. [03:24] So I am so excited to introduce someone [03:27] who I consider my karuta my study [03:30] partner who we have been studying and [03:33] teaching Talmud with tablet magazine [03:36] called take one for the last six years [03:40] and I wanted to talk with you because I [03:42] feel like what we did together what [03:44] we're doing together on take one is like [03:47] the undergraduate course and now daily [03:50] is graduate school and then eventually [03:53] we're hoping Some people go on to, you [03:55] know, like their PhDs in whatever it is, [03:57] dafomi or Torah study. [03:59] >> You're smart. I'm fat. What we're doing [04:01] in take one is the amuse bouch, the [04:03] little kind of pastor derves here. It's [04:06] the it's the actual food. It's the sit [04:08] down dinner that you came to eat. [04:10] >> So, I want to start at the beginning [04:12] because what I really want to explore [04:14] with you today is how does one go from [04:17] not studying Talmud to studying Talmud? [04:20] And your journey has taken you like deep [04:22] deep deep in the chambers of learning. [04:25] And when did you first have that twinkle [04:28] in your eye looking towards the saying [04:31] this is something I want to know more [04:35] about study or at the very least I want [04:37] to share it with more of the world. So I [04:40] think you study Talmud the way you go [04:42] bankrupt slowly slowly and then all of a [04:45] sudden uh which I think is a is a [04:47] perfect metaphor really for all of [04:49] Jewish life because when I was taking my [04:51] first steps into Jewish life having had [04:54] a front row seat to academia's collapse [04:58] into chaos and mayhem having become a [05:01] father feeling that the things I thought [05:03] were were true and eternal like all [05:06] these institutions I put so much stock [05:08] in you know the university, the [05:10] newspaper, you know, the strength of our [05:12] democracy, all those were crumbling [05:14] before my eyes. And I I asked this [05:15] question which is almost embarrassingly [05:19] uh banal, which is like what is true? [05:21] Like so many of us, the only answer I [05:23] could come up with was obviously [05:24] Yiddish, which was the easy part. The [05:27] hard part was okay, what now? You want [05:30] to do this thing, how do you approach [05:32] it? I didn't know what the right way was [05:34] and I promise you this is all going [05:35] towards. But I knew what the wrong way [05:37] was. The wrong way was emotional. The [05:40] wrong way was ecstatic. The wrong way [05:42] was enthusiastic. Uh, which are all [05:45] words that we usually use. Those are [05:47] nice words, [05:48] >> great words to describe things. But, but [05:50] look, I was old enough. I was already in [05:52] my early 30s. But I was old enough to [05:53] understand the great danger that faced [05:55] me. The great danger that faced me is [05:57] that I would get really into something [05:59] and then really out of it. Like a fat [06:01] diet, like a promise on, you know, [06:03] January 3rd, I'm going to go to the gym [06:05] every day. It's going to be amazing. I [06:08] realized intuitively that if I only [06:10] sought kind of moments of tremendous [06:14] elation and kind of great big [06:17] excitement, those moments are rare in [06:18] human life. And even if you have them [06:20] frequently, they don't really last that [06:22] long. I mean, think about leaving, we're [06:24] all fish fans here. Think about leaving [06:27] a fish concert [06:28] >> poster in the back. [06:28] >> The first two days you're like, "Oh my [06:30] god, it was so incredible." And you [06:31] listen to it again and again. But then [06:33] life takes over. Then your kids start [06:35] making demands. And then there are [06:36] errands to run and there are work [06:38] obligations to meet and the excitement [06:40] fades away. I knew that if this Judaism [06:43] thing was going to change my life, I had [06:45] to come to it on its own terms. And and [06:47] here's what I mean by that. Look, you [06:49] think for example about the way we den [06:51] the way we do is the most frustrating [06:53] thing in the world. And I learned this [06:55] firsthand, right? I went to a synagogue [06:56] for the first time in many, many years, [06:59] having previously been, shall we say, a [07:02] few cheeseburgers removed from the faith [07:04] of my father's. And I looked around. I [07:06] was like, what is even going on? [07:07] >> A few cheeseburgers removed from the [07:09] faith of my father. [07:11] >> I'm standing there at Shaw, a complete [07:12] newcomer at an Orthodox synagogue. And [07:14] I'm like, I don't understand any of this [07:16] because all I could see is a bunch of [07:18] guys going [07:21] mumbling to themselves. And then all of [07:23] a sudden, at intervals that I didn't [07:25] quite get, everyone stops. It kind of [07:27] comes together and it was chaos. And I [07:29] left the first couple of days thinking, [07:31] why can't we have nice church? Why can't [07:33] we have and now everyone turn to page 34 [07:36] and we'll all sing a hymn together and [07:38] then someone in a beautiful white robe [07:40] would stand before us and deliver this [07:42] amazing speech that will so move us to [07:44] be better people. And the more I thought [07:46] about it, the more I realized all the [07:47] respect to other faith traditions that [07:49] fades away. You leave church on Sunday [07:51] afternoon and by Tuesday morning you're [07:54] already not feeling it. What you need, [07:56] what I needed was a real change. And [07:59] finally, I'm going to answer your [08:01] question. That is what Tomwood does. [08:03] There are other texts, wonderful, [08:05] amazing texts in Judaism that you could [08:07] and should and must read that will leave [08:11] you feeling so incredibly [08:14] >> all those things we said before, [08:16] >> inspired, [08:16] >> inspired, moved, sublime, elated. That [08:19] feeling is hard to sustain. But opening [08:22] a page every day and jumping into a [08:25] question that forces you, literally [08:28] drags you down and says, "Think about [08:31] things my way." And by my way, the [08:35] Talmud means really think about things. [08:38] example from the duff we are reading [08:42] tomorrow from rabbis are talking about [08:44] well you know if you cut meat with a [08:47] knife you can't then cut radish because [08:49] radish has a very sharp flavor and then [08:52] god forbid if there's still some fat [08:54] meat fat on the knife it will transfer [08:56] to the radish and you read this like [08:57] what does that have to do with anything [08:59] until you take three steps back and you [09:01] start thinking oh here's what they're [09:03] telling me they're actually asking the [09:05] greatest questions in the world they're [09:07] asking Why do we eat? How are we alive [09:10] in this world? What should we do? And [09:11] the answers that they give is don't [09:13] coast through it. Don't just, you know, [09:15] check boxes and have, you know, vague [09:17] rules that you do or don't understand. [09:20] Get into the smallest nitty-gritty and [09:23] then use these constant explorations, [09:25] these constant question asking to really [09:28] change your behavior. Because when you [09:29] go back to that example of the knife of [09:31] the radish, you're like, right, they're [09:33] asking why do we eat? What's food? Is it [09:35] just digesting things? No, it's tasting [09:38] it. And the same question, of course, [09:40] goes to life. What's life? Is this going [09:42] through the motion? No, it's stopping [09:44] and tasting every little flavor and [09:46] making sure that every little flavor on [09:47] the tip of our tongue is good and holy [09:49] and builds our pallet some more. It can [09:51] only be achieved this incredible pallet [09:54] building exercise, emotional, spiritual [09:57] pallet building exercise. If you truly [10:00] jump into the minds of Gamarra, the [10:02] minds of Gamarra sounds like something [10:04] out of the Lord of the Rings, right? the [10:05] dwarves are going to the minds of [10:06] Gamarra and really dig deep and hard for [10:11] years for these nuggets of meaning that [10:13] are the most precious metals in the [10:14] world. [10:15] >> I love what you're saying right now. You [10:16] know, it reminds me when you think about [10:18] life a lot of times people think about [10:21] like these major uh existential moments, [10:24] these were major narratives. And when [10:27] you were speaking, it reminded me of a [10:30] somewhat famous uh presentation. And it [10:32] was uh David Foster Wallace when he [10:35] spoke at Kenyan State College and he [10:38] spoke about what is the value of a [10:41] liberal arts degree. This is back in the [10:42] day when liberal arts were really trying [10:44] to accomplish something. The example he [10:46] gave is is almost exactly what you said. [10:48] He said what I am trying to do with my [10:51] students is change the way they think [10:53] when they're online at the supermarket [10:56] which is like the actual fabric of life. [10:58] I'm not trying to change the way they [10:59] think when they're at the top of some [11:01] mountain in some monastery. I want you [11:03] to change the way you think in your the [11:05] grit of day-to-day life. When you're [11:07] online in a supermarket and you notice [11:09] how many items the person in front of [11:11] you has and you you're like, you know, [11:14] like seething and like trying to [11:15] literally want to like murder the person [11:17] because they're taking too much time on [11:19] this line and literally change the way [11:21] that you that you think in the in [11:23] between moments of actual lived [11:25] experience. And that's why I think the [11:27] Talmud, what I find is so amazing is [11:30] almost how not epic it can be at times. [11:33] How detail oriented, the way that it [11:35] shifts your focus into the daily rhythms [11:39] of everyday life. Crazy, frustrating, [11:42] sublime, and irreplaceable. Look, as a [11:44] kid, I was obsessed with this French I [11:46] still am very much obsessed with this [11:48] French writer named Marcel P, the famous [11:50] Jew, or you know, [11:52] >> sure, [11:52] >> not hakically Jewish, but somewhat [11:54] somewhat Jewish. Well, well, he's part [11:56] of the team given that the great kind of [11:57] events of his life was were the driver's [12:00] affair. And he wrote one book, In Search [12:02] of Lost Time. It's about 3 3,000 [12:05] something pages long. Uh it is the [12:07] closest work to the Talmud that anyone [12:09] has achieved in modernity. It is just [12:11] that. It is an exploration of [12:13] everything. This cookie, this flower, [12:16] the sea, the architecture in this tower, [12:19] the emotions I'm feeling, my lampost, [12:23] everything. He has these observations [12:25] like don't ever discount the furniture [12:28] in your room. And by observation I mean [12:30] he goes on for about five or six pages [12:33] because the furniture in your room he [12:35] says are imbued with the essence of who [12:37] you are. They're the limits of your [12:38] world. Basically telling you the same [12:40] thing David Foster Wallace is telling [12:41] you the same thing that is telling us. [12:43] Don't go looking for God on top of the [12:44] mountaintop. Look for God in your nightd [12:47] dresser. Look for the smallest details. [12:49] Ask yourself why am I living this way? [12:52] Why am I making these smallest choices? [12:53] Yes, I understand why I am choosing to [12:56] be Jewish and it's very beautiful and [12:57] good and and moving and we hear these [12:59] great, you know, speeches and Roshashana [13:01] from the rabbis and we we feel elated. [13:03] But ask yourself when I wake up in the [13:05] morning and I'm brushing my teeth, how [13:06] am I doing this? Am I doing this [13:08] correctly? Is this action a real [13:11] manifestation of my unlimited godly [13:14] potential? Am I being God's partner in [13:16] creation right now in the best way that [13:18] I can? Am I living my best life not in [13:21] the hallmark silly kind of you know [13:23] internety sense of of the word but in [13:26] the most true profound way and that's [13:28] what the Talmud helps you to achieve by [13:31] asking you to question everything and [13:34] not just question as in you know throw [13:37] some doubt or shame into it but question [13:39] as in really inquire into the [13:41] intricacies of how the thing works. I [13:44] want to go in the flip side and come [13:46] back to an analogy because it's not the [13:47] first time I've heard this analogy. You [13:49] briefly touched upon an analogy of like [13:52] the January 3rd gym commitment. [13:55] >> And what's very interesting is I [13:57] remember I had a friend, we haven't been [13:59] in touch in a long time. Her name is [14:00] Sophia Zohar. Shout out to Sophia. She [14:03] had a long post which I actually [14:05] included in my essay on Brahos where she [14:09] literally compared the study of Dapomi [14:12] to that gym membership where every time [14:15] there's a new Dapomi cycle like you see [14:18] all these people coming in they're [14:20] they're starting the first track take [14:22] they're excited and then slowly it thins [14:24] out for the crowd that never even shows [14:27] up [14:28] >> for the crowd that you know is vaguely [14:30] familiar that there is a document called [14:33] the Talmud. They're in touch with their [14:35] own Jewish identity, but they never [14:38] associated that with the Talmud. What do [14:40] you think are the barriers of why people [14:42] are not engaging more deeply in serious [14:46] taludic study? [14:47] >> That's a great question. Honestly, [14:49] there's one barrier and the barrier is [14:51] gym think, right? We walk into a gym. [14:54] Let's stay with this metaphor cuz look [14:56] at me. I clearly haven't been to the [14:59] gym, you know, since I don't know the [15:00] radio. for both of us. It's been a [15:02] minute. [15:03] >> You know, it shows for one of us more [15:04] than the other. If you visit any gym, [15:06] again, I didn't do this in person, but I [15:08] sort of see videos. They're very [15:10] beautiful. They're inviting. Everything [15:12] about them screams hospitality. There's [15:15] a reception desk like in a fancy hotel. [15:17] There's usually a gift shop with like [15:20] beautiful clothes and like a a juice bar [15:22] right up front. And they advertise how [15:24] beautiful and new and advanced the [15:26] machines are, and there's a spa and all [15:28] these amenities. And that's exactly the [15:30] problem because too many of us want [15:32] that. We want the convenience and we [15:34] want the amenities. We are the [15:36] generation who clicks a button and [15:38] everything arrives at our doorstep. The [15:40] tomud beautifully and incredibly is the [15:44] opposite. The tomud is the world's worst [15:46] gym. You walk in the door. I was like, [15:49] you know what? Forget those who never [15:50] make the commitment. Let's talk about [15:52] the poor saps who do and think I'm going [15:54] to do this. And they open the book and [15:57] the first thing they read is [16:00] what? Hold on. [16:02] >> It's like already moving introduction. [16:04] It's like stepping into an escalator and [16:07] all of a sudden like there's no rails [16:08] and everything's going stepping onto a [16:10] moving treadmill [16:11] >> and you're thinking, "Wait a minute. Why [16:12] am I talking about kachma? Explain to me [16:15] what's going on. Why did you start here? [16:16] What's the order? Why didn't you just [16:18] write an introduction? This is the most [16:21] maddening thing in the world." And the [16:22] maddening is precisely the point. The [16:25] point is precisely to tell you that the [16:28] greatest public health hazard is [16:30] addiction to convenience, addiction to [16:33] simplicity, addiction to ease of use. I [16:35] want to quote unquote understand. The [16:37] Tombbo does not want you to understand. [16:39] It wants you to ask. It wants you to [16:42] feel frustrated. It wants you to bang [16:44] your head against the wall and say, "I [16:45] don't understand any of this." And [16:47] David, I'll be very honest. We're now [16:49] about a year towards the end of the [16:50] cycle. I think I understand much less [16:53] right now about Talmud than I did when [16:56] you started [16:56] >> before I first started learning Kamar. [16:58] The depth and the breadth of the vistas [17:01] have become more understandable to me [17:04] and I know how vast this landscape and [17:06] how I will probably never ever begin to [17:09] even see but an iota of it. That's [17:11] exactly what you're doing here. And part [17:13] of the modern problem is that we all [17:16] we're all into marketing. We're all in [17:18] marketing. No matter what our profession [17:19] is, we're marketing. We'll make this [17:22] accessible. This is what you and I did. [17:24] >> Make the Talmud accessible. The [17:26] beautiful thing about the Talmud is that [17:27] the Talmet actually tells us the [17:29] opposite. Like, you make me accessible. [17:31] I don't want to be accessible. You don't [17:33] want to open the door, don't open the [17:34] door. That's on you. I only want the [17:36] kind of people who don't need the [17:37] marketing. I only want the kind of [17:38] people who don't need the fancy juice [17:40] bar or the gift shop or the reception. [17:42] This kind of people who came here to [17:44] actually work out like in the movie [17:46] Rocky, right? It's like you don't need a [17:48] gym, you need you need a freezer full of [17:51] slabs of meat. That's what you need if [17:53] you want to be a world champion. That's [17:54] what the Talmet is for. Not for [17:56] everyone, but boy, if you take this [17:58] journey going to be a champ. [17:59] >> I am so grateful for the journey that [18:01] we've gone on. And one of the things [18:03] that I've developed because I want to [18:05] hear every Friday what we're doing is [18:08] we're trying to introduce people to [18:09] different Talmud educators. And in a way [18:12] I wanted you to be right at the [18:15] beginning up front because you're the [18:19] >> you start slow and then you go to the [18:21] actual people who know something that's [18:23] perfect. I like It's because there is a [18:25] huge audience who like you brought the [18:29] Talmud I mean with take one through [18:31] tablet people who never thought that [18:33] this is something I would want to engage [18:36] with and dance with and you found a way [18:38] of making it sweet making it digestible [18:41] letting them know this might not be you [18:43] know the inner inner inner chambers but [18:46] you at least pointed out a doorway and [18:49] one of the things that I wanted to do is [18:51] introduce the listeners who are going [18:54] through Talma daily to the people who I [18:57] think have done the most masterful job [18:59] of at least like giving the tours of the [19:02] Talmud [19:03] >> at least letting people understand [19:05] here's the thing that you don't get I'm [19:06] sorry to interrupt but this show about [19:08] the Talmud of course I'm going to [19:09] interrupt and I'm not sorry at all [19:11] here's what you really don't understand [19:13] and by you I don't mean you mean I mean [19:16] one I certainly didn't understand this [19:18] you start off and you think to yourself [19:20] is for tomud scholars it's for people [19:23] with long beards and black hats. It's [19:26] for quote unquote Orthodox Jews. You [19:30] don't understand how much of the [19:32] spiritual intellectual genius of the [19:34] Jewish people, how much of the wisdom, [19:36] how much of the humor, how much of the [19:38] to coin a term comes precisely from [19:41] these pages. You don't understand in [19:43] other words that it's yours. I had the [19:46] occasion not too long ago to witness [19:48] something incredible. I was with a [19:50] friend who had done very well and [19:51] another friend came to visit him and uh [19:54] they were sitting uh together and having [19:56] a great time having not seen each other [19:57] for a very long time. And all of a [19:59] sudden my friend said to his friend, [20:00] "You do remember your stock options, the [20:03] ones that I gave you back when we were [20:05] young, you know, when you were helping [20:06] me out with that little loan or whatever [20:08] it was." And the friend looked at him [20:09] and said, "What are you talking about?" [20:10] And then it turned out that this guy [20:13] whom my friend had not seen in years had [20:17] in some bank account he didn't even know [20:18] about tens of millions of dollars [20:20] >> for real. [20:20] >> For real that we're waiting just for [20:22] him. It was a complete life-changing [20:25] moment. This is how I feel about Talmud. [20:27] Somewhere in a bank account, there are [20:29] tens of millions of dollars worth of [20:32] wisdom that are already yours. And [20:34] you're not even going to make a a small [20:37] withdrawal. You're not even going to see [20:38] what this thing is about. this thing [20:40] that has shaped every great Jewish mind [20:42] we admire throughout history. That's the [20:45] thing that frustrates me the most. In [20:47] other words, I don't want to make it [20:48] accessible because as I said a moment [20:49] ago, I don't believe in accessibility. I [20:51] believe in hard work. I love that it's [20:53] not accessible. I love that it's kind of [20:55] like gritty, [20:56] >> really gritty. I love, and this is [20:57] something that you and I talked about a [20:58] lot, that the first page of every track [21:00] date is two because page one is you, [21:03] your decision to go out and say that's [21:04] the first page of the tot. But at the [21:06] same time, you have to know about this. [21:07] All I want to do in life is just to make [21:10] people know that this belongs to them. [21:12] >> That you have money in your bank. It's [21:14] already there. It's already deposited. [21:15] >> You have money in the bank. You're [21:17] already a millionaire. Go and enjoy the [21:19] spoils. [21:20] >> Take out a withdrawal. On every one of [21:22] our interviews with the Talmud educator, [21:24] I wanted to ask a question from our [21:27] Talmud questionnaire. These are more [21:29] rapid fire questions. If you need to [21:32] phone a friend or grab [21:34] >> I'm turning off my my conscious mind. I [21:36] am sitting here. I just want to hear [21:37] >> moment of Zen. I'm here. [21:39] >> Here we go. Ready? This is our official [21:41] Talmud questionnaire. Let's start with [21:43] question number one. Who do you consider [21:45] your primary teacher of Talmud? [21:47] >> David Bashevkin. Next question. [21:49] >> Come on now. [21:50] >> That's the God that's honest truth. [21:52] Absolutely. [21:52] >> That means a great deal. [21:53] >> Rabbi David Bashevkin is the only answer [21:55] I'll consider. Next. How would you [21:57] explain what the Talmud is to somebody [22:00] who has never engaged with it before? I [22:03] would borrow the words of my good friend [22:05] Jonathan Rosen who said, "It's not a [22:07] book. It's a drifting net for catching [22:10] God." [22:10] >> A drifty like that's gorgeous imagery. I [22:13] love that. If you were introducing [22:15] someone to Talmud for the first time, [22:17] where would you begin? For the first [22:19] time, where would you start that? [22:21] >> I would start completely uninterestingly [22:26] and uninspiredly. I would start at the [22:28] beginning because [22:29] >> meaning on the first page of [22:31] >> on the first page because of the [22:33] confusion that ensues but then that [22:36] moment in which the rabbis break apart [22:39] the three shifts of the night. The first [22:41] one is when you hear dogs crying [22:44] somewhere in the distance and then when [22:45] you hear a woman talk to her husband and [22:47] then when you hear a boy crying. It is [22:50] so beautiful, poetic, and evocative. And [22:53] it leads you right into this beautiful [22:55] conversation in which the rabbis are [22:57] saying, "Well, but if we're could do it [22:59] all night, and then why why put any [23:00] limitations on it?" Well, because we [23:02] need to put a fence because if we [23:04] didn't, you'll just come home from work [23:06] and you'll say, "Whatever. I have all [23:08] night to pray, Marv. I go watch some [23:11] Netflix. I could eat a day. I could [23:12] drink a beer. I could relax a little [23:14] bit." Next thing you know, you're waking [23:15] up on the couch and it's 7 in the [23:17] morning and you've overslept. There is [23:19] so much poetry and deep insight into [23:24] human nature all rolled into what [23:26] seemingly is a quote unquote boring [23:29] halahic discussion. I would not start [23:31] with a beautiful moving agates [23:36] that move me most like yoma etc moed [23:38] katan. I would start the very beginning. [23:40] The rabbis knew exactly what they were [23:42] doing. I could not agree more and my [23:44] theory that I plan on on sharing is that [23:48] actually although you're 100% right one [23:50] of the great features of the tom is that [23:52] there is no introduction others have [23:54] written introduction but the tot [23:55] introduction for itself I think the [23:58] introduction to the Talmud is the first [23:59] Mishna in brahos [24:00] >> oh 100% [24:01] >> that is telling you what this project is [24:04] about without telling you that it's [24:05] telling you what the project is about [24:07] >> could agree more [24:07] >> next question what is your f you kind of [24:09] gave it away but let's hear what's your [24:11] favorite track tape Y [24:12] >> explain what's Y about. I love that Yuma [24:14] is your favorite track. [24:15] >> I've read enough Talmud to know that a [24:18] student can never explain anything in [24:19] the presence of his rabbi. So I will let [24:21] you do it and then I'll tell you why. Um [24:23] >> Yuma is a really beautiful track. It is [24:26] also of my favorites. The main focus of [24:29] the track is on Yom Kipper, but [24:31] specifically not how we practice on Yum [24:34] Kipper, but how the high priest known as [24:36] the Cohen God would practice on Yum [24:39] Kipper. takes you through his day one [24:41] day which is why the name of the track [24:43] is called Yuma the day and it takes you [24:45] through the service of the high priest [24:48] on Yum Kipper which is of the most [24:49] beautiful meaningful it's like [24:51] choreography it's so gorgeous and the [24:53] last chapter talks about how people like [24:56] you and I observe yum kipper [24:57] >> I don't care about the last chapter at [24:59] all I have to say I'm I'm profoundly [25:01] uninterested in it as much as [25:03] uninterested as you could be in you know [25:04] Tommood which of course is still very [25:06] interested I love it because it's a [25:07] masterwork not just of storytelling this [25:10] linear narrative of you take off this [25:12] vestment and you put on this vestment [25:13] and you take this accessory and you put [25:15] down that accessory but also because I [25:17] think it's it's Judaism personified do [25:20] you want to get closer to God that's [25:22] great it's not vibes it's not feelings [25:25] it's action it's the things that you do [25:28] and you read the whole things like why [25:29] am I reading this why do I need to know [25:32] today what happened in the temple that [25:34] hasn't stood for almost 2,000 years but [25:36] then of course it ends with this [25:38] terrible And I mean this literally and [25:40] and and and profoundly. This awe [25:42] inspiring moment of all the people [25:44] falling on their face when they hear the [25:47] Cohen God or the high priest say the [25:49] express name of God and you're like, "Oh [25:52] my God." That's how it works. That's the [25:55] intimacy. That's the payoff. It's the [25:58] moment of preparing ourselves and [26:00] preparing ourselves and preparing [26:01] ourselves by taking on all these very [26:03] intricate commandments that seemingly [26:06] lead nowhere until you see where it all [26:08] leads. It leads to change. A real change [26:10] of heart. There is nothing like it. [26:12] >> Yuma is incredible. Next question. Your [26:15] favorite story in the entire Talmud. [26:17] >> What is What is the rating of this [26:19] podcast? [26:20] >> Let's keep it Let's keep it like a '9s [26:23] PG-13. It [26:24] >> It involves a rabbi named Alazar Bender. [26:27] I don't know that I could necessarily [26:28] repeat it. [26:29] >> No, the Yeah, you could totally repeat [26:31] that. That's in Avod Zara on page 17, I [26:34] think. [26:34] >> Correct. It is an incredible story. I [26:36] will tell it very briefly. [26:37] >> You should know my mother would always [26:39] tell me, and this is true, my mother was [26:42] very strict. I grew up in the age of [26:44] Blockbuster. And my mother, God bless, I [26:47] would always get a kick out of the fact [26:48] she would always ask the person working [26:50] behind the counter at Blockbuster, is [26:52] this movie appropriate for my child? And [26:54] these people had like neck tattoos. cuz [26:56] I don't know why. [26:57] >> Made me feel very cool. [26:58] >> Yeah. [26:58] >> Like, yo, what's up? [27:00] >> But but one thing that my mother would [27:02] always say, because she wasn't crazy [27:05] strict, she was strict. She didn't want [27:06] me to see wildly inappropriate things, [27:08] but she was always like practical. And [27:10] she would always say, "It's not any [27:11] worse than what you're going to read in [27:13] the Talmud." She would tell me that all [27:15] the time. It's not any worse than what [27:16] you're going to find in Gomorrah class. [27:17] Because Gammorra class is about [27:19] intimacy, sexuality, violence. It's all [27:21] there. I mean, so tell me this story. [27:23] >> It's a human book. Nothing human is [27:24] foreign to it. The story is about a [27:26] rabbi named Elazaba, which loosely [27:29] translates to um Elazar, the man of the [27:32] dregs of society. Uh he was a rabbi who, [27:34] shall we say, was very fond of working [27:36] girls. He loved prostitutes and he [27:38] invested most of his time in frequenting [27:41] their their houses of illreute. One day [27:43] he's told uh that there is a a new [27:46] professional in the game who is better [27:48] than anyone else. Uh and he must visit [27:50] her. She lives very far away and her [27:52] price is extreme. He collects the money. [27:55] He goes over to visit her. He puts down [27:59] the payment uh and begins to engage in [28:02] the work uh that they uh had come there [28:05] to consummate. Um and just as that [28:10] happens, there is a loud occurrence of [28:15] flatulence on the lady's behalf. And she [28:18] looks at him and says, "Uh, just as this [28:21] wind broke, uh, so too could you never [28:24] take back your sins?" [28:27] And he runs outside naked and terrified. [28:30] And he, um, starts begging for [28:33] forgiveness. He talks to the rocks and [28:36] say, "Roxs, please ask God. Tell him I'm [28:39] a good person. Tell him to forgive me." [28:41] And the rocks say, "Well, we're just [28:42] rocks. We, you know, we have rock [28:44] business. Leave us alone." [28:45] And he asks the uh rivers, hey please, [28:48] you know, ask God, tell him I'm a good [28:50] person. Tell him to forgive me. The [28:51] rivers say, well, the rivers. Finally, [28:53] he asks the heavens themselves. Hey, you [28:54] know, stars in sky, tell God I'm a good [28:57] person. And similarly, the stars in the [28:59] sky say, don't bother us. We have our [29:02] own things. And so, he sits by the side [29:04] of the road and he puts his head in [29:06] between his hands and he begs for [29:09] forgiveness in a true pure fashion. And [29:11] at that moment, we're told he dies and [29:14] goes to the world to come. And the story [29:16] ends with a butthole with a small voice [29:19] telling the rest of his friends that not [29:21] only did he pass straight on to what we [29:24] would call heaven, but even they call [29:26] him rabbi there. The rest of the rabbis [29:27] are like, "What? That guy, that guy, [29:29] that big sinner, that you know that that [29:32] philander, how how could it be?" And [29:34] Raboni famously says [29:38] there are those among us who have to [29:40] work very hard for you know forgiveness [29:42] and redemption. But there are some who [29:44] can by quote unquote guarantee their [29:48] place in the world to come with one [29:49] moment of clarity, one moment of true [29:52] repentance, one moment of the Shouva. [29:54] Now there is so much commentary on the [29:56] story that I love. But I recently heard [29:59] a really interesting bit of commentary [30:01] that is very appropriate as we're [30:02] recording this. I believe today is the [30:03] sixth day of El. We're recording this in [30:05] the month of El, the month of of Jewish [30:07] introspection. And I heard a really good [30:09] commentary from this great rabbi in [30:11] Israel called Rabbi Schneerazi. He's the [30:14] chief rabbi of a kabad rabbi. I said, [30:16] "Look, we read the story all the time." [30:17] And uh what do we focus on? We focus on [30:20] this incredible forgiveness. Oh, he [30:22] sinned, he repented, and he went to [30:26] heaven, says Rabbi Ashkanazi. That's the [30:28] wrong point. The point is that Rabila [30:32] asked God to die. He didn't ask God to [30:35] live. He could have said, you know what? [30:36] I am going to stop visiting prostitutes. [30:40] I'm going to change my ways. I'm going [30:42] to be a better person. Please let me [30:44] live and let me grow. And God would have [30:46] granted that to him happily, much more [30:48] happily, than taking his life. But so [30:50] many of us, it is so much easier to say, [30:53] you know what? I'd rather die than live [30:55] like this. The great prototype of course [30:57] being you know the prophet Bil right at [30:59] the very end what does he ask Hashem let [31:01] me die like a Jew not let me live like a [31:04] Jew not let me give up my ways of [31:07] idolatry and chasing money so that I [31:09] could become like these righteous people [31:10] who I'm seeing with my own god-given [31:13] talent are incredible. No, no, let me [31:15] die like them so I could be mourned and [31:17] honored like them in death. That's not [31:19] the point. The point is to live like a [31:21] Jew, not die like a Jew. and the Lazar [31:23] Bend though it's a very earthy story [31:25] with a lot of you know flatulent [31:27] prostitutes man it doesn't get more yeah [31:29] kind of extreme than that but I think [31:31] it's here to teach us precisely that [31:33] it's much easier for us as we want to [31:36] repent to think in these um grand almost [31:39] like martyr like terms we want to give [31:41] it all sacrifice everything that's not [31:43] the point the point is the small little [31:45] change the point is going to the gym on [31:47] January 3rd the point is opening that [31:49] page of tomuda day after day after day [31:51] and learning gamara That's the point of [31:53] the durast. [31:54] >> I love that. My next question, not [31:56] stories. Do you have a favorite legal [31:58] debate or discussion in the Talmud? [32:01] >> That is an incredible question. Very [32:04] much influenced by you. I have uh [32:07] recently on my journey began some [32:10] studies, meaning I I study seriously. [32:12] The track that we're reading right now, [32:14] Koulin, is chalk full of of precisely [32:17] the stuff that I'm currently learning, [32:19] which is what happens when all kinds of [32:22] things get mixed with each other, [32:24] >> mix with each other in ways that make [32:26] them questionable. Uh, [32:27] >> a little bit of milk falls into a [32:29] >> a little bit of milk falls into or a [32:31] little bit of meat falls into a pot of [32:32] milk or vice versa or non-cooser food. [32:35] >> It's hot. It's not kosher food. [32:37] >> How much? Um, I may just be giving this [32:39] answer because that is where my head is [32:41] at right now and that's what I'm [32:42] studying. But the logic of it to me is [32:45] incredible. First of all, because when I [32:47] began this journey, um, I was frankly [32:50] really confused that we needed a whole [32:52] class on that. As far as I was [32:54] concerned, the answer was just no. [32:58] >> Something fell into a pot. Great. Throw [32:59] out the whole pot. Make a new pot, man. [33:01] It doesn't matter. There are laws and [33:03] the laws are strict. Then you open and [33:06] you start reading about things like the [33:08] concept of shishim right the idea that [33:11] if there is right 60 times more the [33:15] permitted thing than the prohibited [33:17] thing it's not a problem you start [33:19] understanding principle like the one we [33:20] just discussed a moment ago with Tom Kar [33:23] the idea is that what we really want to [33:25] follow is the flavor because it is the [33:27] flavor of something not just its [33:29] presence in other words there may not be [33:32] any meat left in the pot you took it out [33:34] right away as soon as it fell. But it [33:36] already gave the whole pot its, you [33:38] know, bacony, god forbid, flavor. [33:41] >> This idea is so beautiful and intricate [33:45] to me. Uh, and then on a totally [33:47] different note, the other laws that I am [33:49] very, very, very interested in are the [33:51] laws of Nazir. [33:52] >> You never told me that. Nazir I love. [33:54] >> Right. The obsession comes from the [33:56] following place. Because again, it's so [33:58] counterintuitive. You read them and when [34:00] you start reading, you think, I [34:02] understand why this is here. Clearly, [34:04] this is a very good guy who wants to be [34:06] quote unquote more religious. So [34:08] clearly, this whole thing is going to be [34:10] about how this guy is awesome and how we [34:12] should support him. And then it's [34:14] exactly the opposite. It's like, no, no, [34:17] no, no. We don't want angels here on [34:19] Earth. We want humans. We don't want you [34:22] taking on more stringencies. We want you [34:26] to find ways of making the Torah more [34:28] and more and more approachable. [34:30] >> That's such a great example because it [34:32] gets to the emphasis of the highest [34:35] value of Jewish life, which is actually [34:37] not strictness and prohibition, but [34:39] something that allows you to really [34:41] engage fully in life. We don't like that [34:43] the Nazare takes themselves. Don't add [34:45] that that it qualifies as the end of the [34:48] discussion is but that moment when [34:50] Yaltta famously talks to her husband [34:52] right and says look for everything [34:55] prohibits us he gives us something [34:57] comparable right he says you can't eat [34:59] this but you could eat that tastes kind [35:02] of the same you can't do this but you [35:05] could do that which is more or less the [35:07] same thing and she asked like what do I [35:08] get for milk and meat and her husband of [35:10] course famously has the whole discussion [35:12] about the consumption of the udder and [35:14] how we are to treat the udder and make [35:16] sure that it's empty of of all milk [35:18] before we cook it. It is a classic [35:19] example as far as I'm concerned a of the [35:22] way in which you could always learn laws [35:24] from agada and always learn stories from [35:27] laws. That's something you taught me. [35:28] Yes. [35:29] >> And second of all that none of these [35:31] laws are needlessly stringent [35:34] difficulty. [35:36] In other words, these laws are here to [35:38] help us question and answer the greatest [35:41] conundrums of of human life. What advice [35:44] would you give to somebody studying [35:46] Talmud for the very first time? [35:48] >> Drink. [35:51] >> I'm not joking. I think we've been [35:53] spoiled. Um, modernity has spoiled us. [35:56] It has disenchanted this world. We come [35:59] to to learning and we expect to [36:01] understand. We expect to make sense. We [36:04] expect to to leave with questions that [36:07] are answered. One of the greatest [36:08] pleasures, and I've said this to you a [36:10] hundred times, I'll say to you 100 times [36:11] more. I love nothing more than you know [36:13] I have this big leather chair where I [36:15] sit and and and learn and you know [36:17] someone like my wife or or my daughter [36:19] or my son would come and say hey what [36:21] are you learning and I would describe [36:22] you know the suga that I'm learning and [36:23] they say oh that's very interesting [36:24] what's the answer I say the answer to [36:27] you even go here as the kids say the [36:29] answer is not at all the issue the joy [36:32] is jumping into the essence of the thing [36:34] is is really relishing and reveling in [36:37] the question it is very hard for [36:38] newcomers to understand that and leave [36:40] and contain pain and hold these [36:42] frustrations. I think it helps a little [36:44] bit if you've had a or six. [36:46] >> Do you remember when you first fell in [36:49] love with the study of Talmud? When [36:51] you're like, "Wow, like I think I think [36:53] I actually like this. I'm enjoying [36:55] this." [36:55] >> Bal alert. Bal answer alert. Uh the [36:58] first time you and I did learn together, [37:00] >> it was in this very room. I think [37:02] >> it was in this very room. And it was [37:03] precisely my complete and utter [37:06] befulement and deep understanding that I [37:10] had just read a page me a person who had [37:13] you know previously completed PhD [37:15] studies in in a university some people I [37:17] say is a good university Colombia sadly [37:19] no more uh no longer so great but I'm [37:22] thinking I'm thinking to myself look I I [37:24] have a PhD I've read German philosophy [37:26] and and and Greek texts and Latin the [37:29] original etc etc I'm sitting here and [37:31] this is about as foreign to me as I can [37:34] imagine. And you're explaining this to [37:36] me and I'm holding on for dear life. And [37:39] I'm thinking to myself, this is what [37:41] growth looks like. This is what change [37:42] looks like. This is what the highway to [37:44] a better place is all about. [37:46] >> I absolutely love this. Okay. How has [37:49] Tom study changed your religious life, [37:52] if at all? profoundly in ways that I [37:56] that I could spend a very long time [37:58] explaining because it made me at one and [38:01] the same time both quote unquote much [38:04] more and quote unquote much less [38:07] religious. This is a long way of saying [38:10] that I find this whole term religious to [38:12] be ridiculous and objectionable. It's [38:16] very Catholic, right? No offense to our [38:18] Catholic friends, but it says like, [38:19] well, here's a correct path and you [38:21] follow it in the correct way. That's the [38:23] religio. To me, it's all about getting [38:25] close to Hashem. Talmud has taught me [38:28] that there are so many paths. There's [38:30] one law. There's one haka, but so many [38:33] ways into it, so many ways to understand [38:35] it, so many questions that remain [38:37] unanswered, so many answers that should [38:39] be requested. And when you start to [38:42] understand things this way, first of [38:44] all, you go much deeper down the rabbit [38:46] hole. And you feel yourself much more [38:48] connected, much more rooted. You want to [38:51] learn more. I I started this journey. I [38:52] was like, "Okay, well, you know, maybe I [38:54] could spend an hour a day and and that [38:56] would be it." As you could tell by [38:57] looking at my beard. [38:58] >> That hasn't been the case. I've I've [39:00] gone I've gone, you know, far deeper [39:02] because it consumes me in the best [39:04] possible way. At the same time, it [39:05] actually clarified some of my [39:07] understanding of some issues, religious [39:10] issues, and made me want to take steps [39:12] that from a more traditional perspective [39:14] would seem problematic. Like, for [39:16] example, the way I dress, right? It is [39:18] very important to me to dress in a way [39:20] that is not immediately identifiable [39:23] with the decisions a person like myself [39:26] makes of you know attending an orthodox [39:28] yeshiva learning for the rabinet [39:31] learning gamarra keeping you know [39:33] shabbat and mitzvah etc. is the more I [39:35] know the more I know that I don't want [39:36] there to be this distinction in the [39:38] world when people see me and think, "Oh, [39:40] I can't really approach this person [39:42] because he's there. [39:44] >> He's religious." Like, nah, man. The [39:46] most religious event I've attended in [39:49] the last year was a fish concert at the [39:51] sphere [39:52] >> when we all stood together and were were [39:54] quivering as one person with this [39:57] amazing, you know, light show component [39:59] of it and the music playing and I [40:01] thought to myself, this is what it's [40:03] about. Not like making sure that you [40:05] have the white dress, the white shirt, [40:07] and the black yamaka and the hat just so [40:09] with a right dent in the right place, [40:11] but actually being together with other [40:13] people who could not be more different, [40:15] but you're there for the same reason. [40:17] And you're all quivering together. [40:19] >> When and where is your favorite place to [40:22] study Talmud? [40:23] >> I have a very specific routine because I [40:27] have to record this podcast and it is a [40:30] daily podcast. [40:32] take one because learning daffomi it's [40:34] every bit like borrowing money from the [40:36] mob if you miss one payment you know [40:39] someone would come and break your legs [40:41] tomorrow because somehow you're nine [40:43] days [40:43] >> so if you miss one day [40:44] >> you're gone man [40:45] >> take a weekend off you're finished the [40:47] interest the vig is not worth it [40:49] >> so the morning right the mornings for me [40:51] are just like making sure that you know [40:52] I did the I wrote the script I record [40:54] the episode everything is okay we can [40:56] move on to more earthly things then [40:57] comes the uh hour of say one or 2 a.m. [41:02] and everyone's asleep and everything is [41:04] quiet even in New York City and there's [41:06] a drink and there's a big book and the [41:09] air condition is blasting fullon and I [41:13] can really sit and read and by really [41:15] sit and read I mean I could really let [41:17] my mind wander. I believe the opposite [41:20] of what I think most people believe [41:22] about studying. I don't like [41:25] concentration when I'm learning Gamara. [41:27] I like the opposite. I like huge [41:29] distraction. not distracted like oh I [41:31] have an email oh I have the opposite [41:34] distraction is like oh why are they [41:35] saying this why why are they thinking [41:37] >> let me go down this rabbit hole [41:39] >> hold on why why are they saying that you [41:41] asked me about my favorite uh you know [41:43] laws the other day again because on the [41:46] mind the other day an amazing amazing [41:48] question on the d's like what happened [41:50] this is the most beautifully tal what [41:52] happens if you eat you know kaz half a [41:55] kaz half of the legally permitted [41:58] quantity and then You regurgitate. You [42:01] basically throw it up and then you [42:03] reconsume it. Did you eat? [42:05] >> Regurgitation appears more than one [42:08] would think at first glance in the [42:09] >> T. And then they go into this questions [42:11] like, well, is eating about the throat [42:13] or about the stomach? Do you actually [42:15] need to [42:16] >> does to eat to consume it? Does it mean [42:18] to swallow it? Does it mean to digest [42:19] it? [42:20] >> I find myself sitting there with a big [42:22] tumbler of scotch thinking that is one [42:25] of the most profound questions I've ever [42:26] heard. I'm going to put the book down on [42:28] my lap for a second and really kind of [42:30] sail away. I think if you do it like [42:32] this, you really let you know like the [42:34] famous story I believe the Kotkarov like [42:36] you had a student come in and saying you [42:38] know oh rabbi I've been to the gamarra [42:40] three times already and the kotkar says [42:41] yeah but how many times the gamarra been [42:43] through you? I like to let the gamar go [42:45] through me and that can only be achieved [42:47] late at night with a with a good mashka. [42:50] My dearest friend, Karusa Leel, thank [42:52] you so much for joining us on Tama [42:55] Daily. And let's keep making Torah [42:56] sweet. [42:57] >> God bless you, Bo Hashem. And I can't [42:59] tell you how thrilled I am to a be a [43:01] part of this in any way, shape, or form, [43:03] but even more importantly to know that [43:05] this exists cuz cuz take one again was [43:07] if it was anything, if it's anything, [43:09] it's the anti- room. It's the reception [43:10] room. Tom Daily is where the real [43:12] learning is going to happen. And I can't [43:14] wait to learn with you all over again, [43:16] my dear friend and teacher. [43:17] >> Thank you so much, my dearest friend. [43:23] There is a movie that came out last [43:25] year. I'm not sure that I would want to [43:27] recommend this movie, but it happens to [43:29] be a very powerful movie and it's called [43:30] Sinners. It is about uh vampires. Uh [43:33] there was a scene in Sinners, which is [43:35] set kind of in the 200 years ago in the [43:38] in the South in the United States. [43:40] There's a lot of racism and it's set in [43:43] this like speak easy bar that they set [43:45] up for one night and they hire a singer [43:47] and a guitar player and this person is [43:51] playing guitar and has a way of creating [43:54] a song that is so powerful and this is [43:56] like the central moment in the movie [43:59] that it's able to conjure up his [44:01] ancestors. And there's this beautiful [44:03] scene in the movie where you see a [44:05] 14-year-old, you know, this teenager [44:08] playing guitar in the middle singing the [44:10] blues like from the deepest recesses of [44:12] his heart. And then all of a sudden, the [44:14] scene kind of moves out and goes through [44:16] the bar where you see everybody kind of [44:18] dancing to the music. And what do you [44:20] see slowly in the scene? You see music [44:22] from previous generations. You see old [44:25] African dancers. You see the future [44:27] dancers. You see hip-hop dancers jumping [44:29] in. and his music kind of conjures up a [44:33] scene where past, present, and future [44:35] are all dancing together. Why do I [44:38] mention it? Aside from the fact that [44:39] Leel is the one who wrote a review of [44:42] Sinners that really had me look at it in [44:44] a totally different way, and you could [44:46] check out Leel's article on tablet. It's [44:48] called Sinners. Just gave it the same [44:50] name as the movie. But there's something [44:51] about this scene where you see this [44:53] 14-year-old, this teenager playing [44:56] guitar, and then music from the past, [44:58] music from the future, hiphop, old [45:01] African dance. Everything is coming [45:02] together around this soulful music. And [45:05] this scene, and you'll pardon me for [45:08] what may be, you know, a crude analogy [45:11] to some, but this scene really made me [45:13] think of Talmud study of how the song of [45:16] Torah conjures in the music of both the [45:19] past and the future, where past, [45:21] present, and future really collapses. [45:23] And this is the beauty and the majesty [45:26] of the Talmud. Rabbi Ari Libitz [45:29] described Talmud study to me as a [45:31] timeless machine. A timeless machine. [45:34] You go in and you're in conversation [45:37] with Jews from a thousand years ago and [45:40] there's a future conversation because [45:42] the conversation you're having now, you [45:44] know, is going to spur future [45:46] conversation, future debate, more [45:47] contradiction, more resolution, more [45:49] interpretation. It's this beautiful [45:52] timeless world where literally past, [45:54] present, and future collapse. And it is [45:56] all when we put our song and we're able [45:58] to articulate our song, what we're [46:01] really doing is transforming the world [46:03] that we came from, we're able to touch [46:05] and really explore the world that we [46:07] came from. And at the same time, we're [46:08] also able to touch and reach out into [46:10] that future. And I just looked at that [46:12] scene and it's really the beauty of [46:14] Leel's eyes were able to make those [46:16] connections. But that scene to me is [46:19] perhaps the most beautiful depiction [46:21] visually of what the majesty and beauty [46:24] of Talmud learning is, of Torah learning [46:26] is. And I hope for our listeners, if you [46:30] are interested, please, one more plug, [46:32] check out tomadaily.org. [46:34] It is super easy. You can join at any [46:36] moment. You'll get a a little email 10 [46:39] minutes a day. At the end of the week, [46:41] we do an interview, which is what you [46:43] listen to today. Mondays we focus on the [46:46] general concept. Tuesdays we focus on [46:48] the deeper meaning. Wednesdays we focus [46:51] on daily practice and Thursday we focus [46:53] on the history and how these ideas have [46:55] been debated out. And Friday we have an [46:57] interview and you can spend the weekend [46:59] reviewing. So check out talmadaily.org. [47:02] I hope you enjoyed and thank you so much [47:04] for listening. This episode like so many [47:06] of our episodes was edited by our [47:08] incredible friend Dena. Thank you so [47:10] much Dena Emerson. If you enjoyed this [47:12] episode or any of our episodes, please [47:14] subscribe, rate, review, tell your [47:16] friends about it. It really helps us [47:17] reach new audiences and continue to put [47:20] out great content. And of course, you [47:21] could leave us a voicemail with feedback [47:23] or questions that we may play on a [47:25] future episode. And that number is [47:26] 2125821840. [47:29] Once again, that number is 212-5821840. [47:32] If you'd like to learn more about this [47:34] topic or some of the other great ones [47:36] we've covered in the past, be sure to [47:37] check out 1840.org. It's 18fty.org [47:41] 1840.org where you can find videos, [47:43] articles, recommended readings, and [47:45] weekly emails. Thank you so much for [47:47] listening and stay curious, my friends. [48:16] Heat. Heat. [48:53] Heat. Heat.
