Transcript [00:00] moderate Muslim Majid Nawaz absolutely [00:03] destroys an Islamist entire worldview. [00:07] Take a look. Well, the um Islamic [00:10] position is that we don't label people [00:12] by um their sexuality or their [00:16] nationality or their race. This label [00:18] was invented in the Victorian era. As [00:20] soon as you discriminate them by label, [00:22] you discriminated them. In Islam, we [00:24] don't have a a a title or identity [00:26] called you're gay, homosexual, [00:28] heterosexual. we just it's just humans [00:30] but in in in the only thing that's [00:32] judged is not really your your your [00:33] desires because we all have sinful [00:35] desires it's just actions which are [00:37] judged in Islam and you know in Islamic [00:39] theology there are many actions which [00:40] are sinful there many actions which are [00:42] permitted and so we don't really say [00:44] that you can't be gay and Muslim because [00:45] uh we don't recognize the term gay or we [00:48] don't make that discrimination between [00:50] uh you know heterosexual homosexual this [00:51] is all artificial we're all just human [00:53] we shouldn't discriminate b or judge [00:54] someone or label someone because that's [00:56] when the discrimination begins [00:59] Okay. So, I'm slightly confused. Would [01:01] you therefore describe [01:05] Ars as sinful? [01:07] >> Um, you know what? What he does in the [01:09] privacy of his own home is not really my [01:11] concern. [01:12] >> I'm just saying no. No. But wait, this [01:15] look, I don't know what he does in the [01:16] privacy of home. It's not my concern. [01:17] It's not my favorite. [01:19] >> And if you want, if you want a judgment, [01:20] you can refer it to God. I'm not God. [01:22] I'm just a human being like anybody [01:23] else. A sinful human being. [applause] [01:26] But that being said, that being said, [01:29] yeah, Islamic theology says there there [01:31] are certain actions like drinking [01:32] alcohol, eating pork, and engaging in [01:33] same gender intercourse or g uh [01:36] different gender intercourse outside of [01:37] marriage, which is these are all sinful [01:38] actions, right? But you can still be a [01:40] Muslim and do sinful actions. We don't [01:42] it's your belief that determines whether [01:44] you are Muslim or not. But I I will say [01:46] this, the the real intolerance I think [01:49] and and this is the issue I I heard [01:50] earlier on was I think it's a bit rich [01:53] uh that um Magin Noir he says that you [01:56] can't profile young people uh you know [01:58] just because they have hoodies or [01:59] whatever but his organization profiles [02:02] Muslims who have orthodox beliefs and he [02:04] calls them extremists and he's a [02:06] government funded stoogge attacking [02:08] Muslims. [applause] [02:09] That's all we got to do. [02:11] >> Okay, [02:13] >> that was really interesting because [02:14] actually what we're talking about is [02:15] something completely different. But if I [02:16] if I can just give a couple of seconds [02:17] on that and actually got right to get [02:19] back to the subject matter. Um where [02:21] Quilliam doesn't profile Muslims. That's [02:23] why I've been sitting here speaking [02:24] against profiling and we're not [02:25] government funded. Now back to the [02:27] subject. Um [02:28] >> I think that can I I think that it's [02:31] about time we had an honest debate about [02:33] this. We are as Muslim communities in [02:36] the plural in this country [02:37] simultaneously oppressed in many [02:39] respects and the oppressors. And that's [02:41] a dynamic that plays out in every other [02:43] uh scenario of victimhood. Whether it's [02:45] um we talk about uh uh domestic abuse, [02:48] somebody invariably has had abuse done [02:49] to them when they were young and they [02:51] turn into a an abuser. Whether it's with [02:53] a wife or with children, when they grow [02:54] older, they become violent and it's a [02:56] cycle of violence. And I think likewise [02:58] with Muslim communities across the [03:00] world, we have faced a lot of violence. [03:02] I've faced torture in prison in Egypt by [03:04] the Egyptian regime. I have been had, [03:07] you know, police brutality in Essics. [03:09] And in turn, we become brutalizers of [03:11] others in some cases. And in the case of [03:14] uh being a minority within this minority [03:16] of being a Muslim, we sometimes end up [03:19] discriminating against those minorities [03:20] within the minority. And a case in point [03:23] are gay Muslims. I mean, it's very, very [03:25] dangerous. I interviewed somebody just [03:27] yesterday. A film was shown on News [03:28] Night about an openly gay Muslim called [03:31] Omar Kadus who has to live in hiding. [03:33] And he lives in hiding because he's been [03:34] attacked so many times and because [03:36] people have said to him, "You can be [03:37] gay, but just don't describe yourself as [03:39] Muslim as a result." We have to have an [03:40] honest debate about this. It doesn't [03:42] mean all Muslims are homophobic. I'm [03:44] very impressed by what this gentleman [03:45] said that he doesn't want to [03:46] discriminate. What I would say though is [03:48] we have to be honest and say there is [03:49] discrimination going on within Muslim [03:51] communities. It's about time we call the [03:52] spade a spade. [03:53] >> Okay. Uh yeah, gentlemen here. Come back [03:56] here. [applause] [03:57] Hi, I'm um British Muslim, London born [04:00] and bred. My family's been in London, [04:01] Essics past say 50 years. And the [04:04] question that was raised a few weeks [04:05] ago, the the two topics quite [04:06] controversial, but very simply, I think [04:08] you can be gay Muslim. And I'll tell you [04:09] why. Um firstly, I think it was wrong [04:11] for the mosque to ban the discussion a [04:12] few weeks ago because we live in a [04:14] democracy where we allowed to disagree. [04:16] [applause] [04:17] >> I should I should just say that the [04:18] mosque obviously aren't here to defend [04:20] themselves in their decision. [04:21] >> Sure. Very okay. Um, and so I don't [04:23] think we're allowed to censor anything, [04:25] but um, very simply, first of all, um, I [04:27] know as if he does a lot of great work [04:29] for the LGBT, Asian, and Muslim [04:30] community, and I've worked with him on [04:31] that. Um, being a drag queen isn't the [04:33] same as being gay. It might sound [04:35] obvious, but it's quite important to [04:36] make that distinction for people [04:37] watching the program. And secondly, [04:39] being gay or lesbian isn't about anal [04:42] sex or sexual mechanics. And it's [04:43] important to make that distinction as [04:44] well because it's about love. So for Dr. [04:47] seem to say um gays and lesbians are in [04:50] the same vein as murderers and [04:52] pedophiles is really wrong because as a [04:54] chairman of the of the Burma mosque, he [04:57] has a position of responsibility and [04:59] that same language, that rhetoric is [05:00] used by people around the world to [05:02] justify murdering and persecuting LGBT [05:05] community and it causes lots of lots of [05:07] sadness, lots of heartache. I [05:08] volunteered for Iman, which is a UK- [05:10] based LGBT Muslim organization, going [05:12] from strength to strength past 15 years. [05:14] And um we've helped asylum seekers um [05:17] come to this country, but also people in [05:18] the UK who've been ostracized and [05:20] disowned by their own family. And very [05:22] simply, to love someone isn't a sin. No [05:24] religion really is is is preaching hate. [05:27] It's about love. And if there's 1.5 [05:29] billion Muslims and 10% is gay, that's [05:31] 150 million lesbian, gay Muslims. And [05:33] people need to stop hating and start [05:35] loving. [05:35] >> Throw that back to [05:37] >> [applause] [05:40] >> Well, I mean, as I said, um, Magic can [05:43] come talking about how he loves [05:45] minorities and so on, but it doesn't [05:46] apply when it comes to Muslim community. [05:48] He tells the government that that [05:50] certain beliefs are extremist. These are [05:52] mainstream Muslim beliefs. Let's let's [05:54] stick to what we're talking about. [05:55] >> Sure. Including in this is the belief in [05:57] Islamic theology that u that you know [05:59] what is sinful what is not sinful acts. [06:01] And to believe in mainstream beliefs, [06:02] which is okay. So I if I believe that [06:04] same gender um physical intercourse is [06:07] sin doesn't make me extremist. Right? [06:09] There are Christians that believe this. [06:10] There are Jews that believe this. I [06:11] believe this. But I'm but you know don't [06:13] ask me to start judging people because [06:14] I'm not not here to judge anyone. I'll [06:16] be judged on their judgment along with [06:17] everybody else. Right? The issue is you [06:19] can't you should not be called extremist [06:20] for just holding mainstream beliefs. And [06:22] that's the problem is that people that [06:24] hold these beliefs and not harming [06:25] anyone, not attacking anyone. They're [06:26] just holding these beliefs. They're [06:27] being treated as outcasts, renegades, [06:29] dare I say modernday heretics by [06:31] government funded stooges like Magaz. [06:33] >> Can I come next from home? Hang on. Let [06:36] let me speak up for people [laughter] at [06:37] home. [06:38] >> Anonymous again. I'm afraid it's hard [06:40] coming out in a Muslim families. There [06:42] are 101 questions and you end up living [06:44] two lives. One straight life in front of [06:46] the family, one gay life with your [06:48] friends. But with me, I came out to my [06:50] mom only. I still haven't told the rest [06:51] of the family, but I don't wish to. I'm [06:54] happy to say that I am happy. I am gay [06:56] and I am Muslim. There's another one [06:57] here and again anonymous via email. As a [07:00] Muslim lesbian for me the issue [07:02] surrounding homosexuality within my [07:03] faith and community is one of anonymity, [07:06] seclusion, fear of being outed and [07:08] consequences. The pressure of marriage [07:10] is constant and has led to depression [07:11] and suicidal thoughts in the past. My [07:13] siblings know but telling my parents is [07:15] another thing altogether. Now Abdullah, [07:17] I know you're saying you don't want to [07:18] judge people individually, but isn't it [07:20] attitudes within the community that we [07:23] hear hear stories like this? [07:25] >> Well, I think you have to understand a [07:26] bit more about Islamic theology. Um, [07:28] okay. All Muslims all are they're human [07:30] and we all commit sins. Every single one [07:32] of us in Islamic theology, you're not [07:33] allowed to express your sins. So if [07:35] someone drinks alcohol, eats pork or [07:37] whatever, whatever. You don't say, "I've [07:38] done this and and whatever whatever you [07:40] just keep it, you keep it to yourself [07:41] because we're not meant to be proud of [07:42] our sins." We all do sins. We all know [07:44] this. But you shouldn't be as a as a [07:46] Muslim anyway, you shouldn't be saying, [07:47] "Oh, I must come out to the closet." Who [07:49] said you who said you must come out the [07:50] closet about every single thing you do [07:51] in your private life? Just, you know, I [07:53] don't tell everyone about my private [07:54] life. I don't feel I have to come out [07:55] the closet and tell people about my [07:56] private life. [07:56] >> You do stay in the closet. Or you choose [08:00] to drink alcohol. You do not choose to [08:02] be gay. And I It's just [applause] so [08:07] It's so No, you're like if you want to [08:10] live your life by a book that's, you [08:12] know, just ancient. It's just so beyond [08:15] the views are out. You've made a [08:17] confusion between two things in any [08:19] religion in any religion and I actually [08:20] think it's bad debating whether Muslims [08:23] should be gay or not. It should be why [08:25] can you not be religious and gay? [08:28] >> Can I can I can I briefly clarify that? [08:30] Can I just very briefly clarify that [08:31] being religious and gay? Quickly. [08:33] >> No. Um being gay refers to emotions and [08:36] feelings, right? That's different from [08:38] actions. All right. We're talking about [08:40] actions. I'm not saying um about [08:41] feelings in in Islam feelings are not [08:44] sinful, right? Your feelings are not [08:45] sinful, right? Actions determine whether [08:47] you are a good person or bad person. [08:49] That is all we're saying. [08:50] >> It's not bad. And when you're gay, [08:52] >> again, that's not what I'm That's not [08:54] what I'm saying. We don't even have that [08:55] classification. We don't even have We [08:57] don't even label the the people to [08:58] discriminate them. You're the one that [08:59] discriminate them by saying you're [09:01] different from other human beings. You [09:02] are gay. You're heterosexual. We don't [09:03] even make that discrimination. You're [09:05] the one that [09:05] >> because you don't even acknowledge it. [09:06] That's even worse. [09:07] >> No, I TREAT THEM AS HUMANS. I treat them [09:09] as humans. [09:10] We're all human beings. [09:11] >> All right. Yes, lady here. [09:13] >> Yeah. Well, Adrian, who's actually a [09:15] commentator on LGBT issues, he actually [09:17] came out and said that the censorship [09:18] that happened on BBC for each speech two [09:20] weeks ago was not only attack on LGBT [09:22] people, but also an attack on Muslims [09:24] and the integrity of Muslims and [09:26] propagating the idea that Muslims cannot [09:28] have a debate that's that's free and [09:30] open and tolerant. Now, [09:32] >> but the fact that we're debating it now, [09:34] >> yeah, but two weeks later, that's you've [09:35] censored it last. [09:36] >> It's not relevant now. No, but the fact [09:39] that you've censored it and you've [09:40] postponed it is kind of relevant. [09:41] >> Pis postponed is not the same as [09:42] censored. [09:43] >> Well, really it was because it's it's [09:45] like what the the gentleman was saying [09:46] about the mosque the mosque uh expressed [09:49] concern. They didn't even ban it. They [09:50] expressed concern and the BBC decided to [09:53] to abide by that or and then they came [09:55] out and saying that the deaths. What I [09:56] would like to ask if is the end of the [09:58] day you choose to identify yourself as [10:01] sorry, excuse me, you identify yourself [10:03] as gay. Why do you then choose because [10:05] it is a choice. Why do you then choose [10:06] to be a Muslim when it says explicitly [10:08] within Islam, within Judea or Christian [10:10] tradition that that is prohibited? It's [10:13] a choice. [applause] [10:17] >> I would just like to say that sexual [10:19] orientation is not a choice. It's not a [10:22] choice actually. [10:24] It's a choice for you to be Muslim. So [10:26] why would you No, no, no. Don't get [10:27] involved in this. Why would you choose [10:29] to be? Why would you choose to be a [10:31] Muslim if in the Quran it says that that [10:34] is prohibited? It's a choice at the end [10:36] of the day. You can choose to be a [10:37] Muslim. [10:38] >> It doesn't say in the Quran that it's [10:39] prohibited. What is prohibited is the [10:41] act is the [10:44] I can give you the it says it is. [10:46] >> I am not here to talk about that one [10:47] act. What I am here let let speak. [10:50] Please let speak. Let respond to your [10:53] question. [10:54] >> I am not here to talk about that one [10:56] act. What I'm here to talk about is [10:58] love. Love between two men, two women. [11:00] >> When will it be okay and accepted to be [11:03] gay in Islam? That is not It's a loaded [11:06] question, but I'm sorry. You either be [11:08] gay or you be Muslim. No one is forcing [11:10] you to [11:15] lady here in the blue. [11:16] >> I think that is totally wrong. I mean, I [11:18] I was brought up in an Islamic [11:19] household. I'm from a Islamic community. [11:22] I'm from a very conservative Pakistani [11:23] community. If my mom and dad can accept [11:26] me, why can't the wider community take [11:28] me from [11:30] this lady in the blue? [applause] [11:34] >> Um I personally think that the question [11:36] you're asking is when will the Muslim [11:37] community accept you as a um a gay [11:40] person except gay or homosexuality. The [11:43] thing is um homosexuality is not [11:44] accepted in Islam. So the Muslim [11:46] community will never accept [11:47] homosexuality in a whole. But you being [11:49] gay on not on a judgmental level. You [11:51] can be gay but then at the same time if [11:53] you choose to follow a religion which [11:55] prohibits um homosexuality then you [11:58] can't turn around and ask when will they [12:00] accept for you to be gay. [12:02] >> Can I just say then [applause] [12:04] >> can I just say what are people like me [12:06] meant to do then? You know gay teenagers [12:08] the suicide rate is going up. Homophobic [12:10] crime is going unreported. And it's [12:13] because of attitudes like this that that [12:15] is causing people like [applause] me [12:18] >> dilemma. [12:20] >> I mean I will speak out and continue to [12:22] speak out and your right to identify [12:24] however you want because what we're [12:25] hearing right now is and you guys can [12:26] also think whatever you want. The the [12:28] danger with literalism is in insisting [12:30] that there is only one interpretation [12:32] and one way of doing things. If we take [12:34] that literally if we take literalism [12:36] literally then only 200 years ago [12:38] slavery was accepted and justified by [12:40] religion. Let me finish. [applause] [12:42] The Quran explicitly and literally, let [12:45] me finish and make this point. The Quran [12:47] literally allows for slavery as does the [12:50] Bible, but we no longer practice it [12:51] because our attitudes and [12:52] interpretations have changed. There is [12:54] no one Muslim community. There is no one [12:56] way of interpreting things. If he wants [12:58] to identify as being Muslim, as this [13:00] gentleman here said, Abdullah, he said [13:02] he's not going to tell him he's not a [13:03] Muslim. And I applauded him for that. He [13:05] said he's not going to discriminate [13:06] against him. You just did. And so he he [13:08] disagreed with you. [applause] [13:10] Everyone, everyone [13:13] bring good Tim here. God does not [13:17] exclude anyone. That is a crucial first [13:19] point. And everyone has the right to [13:22] define for themselves what their [13:24] identity is. And we all have identities [13:26] which quite often are contradictory. We [13:29] all have to find some way of navigating [13:30] that, of remaining faithful to our [13:32] vision of God while also remaining [13:34] faithful to who we are. But to add to [13:36] that also the rest of society in [13:39] particular the state should not try to [13:41] impose its view or its morality upon [13:43] Islam. This is a conversation that has [13:45] to happen within Islam and there might [13:47] be room there might be room and and [13:50] that's what it there might be room for [13:51] growth and change ultimately you decide [13:54] for yourself. But the idea of saying to [13:55] someone [13:56] >> you're a sinner even if you do define [13:58] them as a sinner you cannot be part of [13:59] this religion. That to me is anti- good [14:02] because that's a decision that God [14:04] makes, not you. Not you. [applause] [14:10] >> With regards to what you said about [14:11] interpretation, you're pushing the idea [14:13] that there is no true interpretation of [14:15] Islam. By that exact logic, you're [14:18] saying that the people the extremists, [14:20] right, are are their their [14:22] interpretation of religion is also [14:23] valid. There is mainstream Islam. There [14:25] are things that are universally accepted [14:27] within Islam. For example, the gentleman [14:29] brought up the idea of of of drinking, [14:32] of doing drugs. You know, those things [14:34] are prohibited within Islam. I can [14:36] choose not to do them or I can. But for [14:38] me to go out and say I'm a Muslim and I [14:41] drink and that should be accepted, [14:43] that's not religion. That's why [14:47] >> you're you're conflating you're [14:48] conflating choice and how somebody is [14:50] without choice. That first of all, he [14:52] was born the way he is. And I'm sure he [14:54] can speak for himself. What I would like [14:55] to say to you is many many Muslims would [14:57] consider you sinful for not covering [14:59] your face and would insist that you're [15:01] sinful and you can't be a Muslim for [15:02] showing your face and not wearing the [15:03] jilbab the long gown. So at the end of [15:05] the day this is all interpreted and just [15:08] as you've got the right in fact they'd [15:09] also please let me let me respond to you [15:11] please because you're going into all [15:13] talking about interpretation. Can I just [15:15] finish my point? They would also say [15:16] that you shouldn't be speaking in front [15:18] of men. You shouldn't be on television. [15:20] There are literalists who argue that [15:21] too. We know that they're in power. Just [15:23] going back to Abdullah quickly, [15:25] everyone. Everyone. Okay. Okay. Um Osama [15:28] bin Laden was asked, right? He was asked [15:30] uh why' you go against the Islamic [15:32] prohibitions of killing women and [15:34] children. And he says, "Ah, the law's [15:36] not set in stone. He has a he's a [15:38] modernist. Sin Laden is a [15:39] reinterpretationist modernist. He [15:41] doesn't believe he believes in different [15:42] interpretation of Islam. You can [15:43] reinterpret it. I'm It's the same [15:45] mentality that Imagin has to reinterpret [15:48] scripture when it suits him. In Islam, [15:49] he believes in rules. We believe in [15:51] principle. You can't just change those [15:53] things. You can't just change those [15:55] things when it suits you. [15:57] >> Okay. Abdullah. Yes. You've been very [15:59] patient. [15:59] >> Um I think the um real question we [16:02] should be asking ourselves is when will [16:04] religion accept homosexuality? Cuz to [16:06] narrow it down to Muslims is not [16:08] actually doing anyone any favor. [16:10] [applause] [16:12] >> Majid Nawaz as well as many other [16:14] moderate Muslims are some of the best at [16:17] combating these Islamists. And I for one [16:20] am applauding them. I want them to have [16:23] more airtime as you know many in the [16:26] west for some reason especially uh [16:29] British Muslims seem to be extremely [16:31] radical and it's incredible to have [16:33] voices like him being able to speak up [16:36] against that and speak up against the [16:39] persecution of minorities like Jews like [16:41] gays like anybody that is not Muslim in [16:45] the Muslim world and uh expose their you [16:49] know twisting of the faith like if truly [16:52] believe that Islam is peaceful, if [16:54] you're a moderate Muslim, you need to [16:56] speak up. You need to speak out against [16:59] these radicals that are twisting and [17:02] trying to, you know, hijack your faith. [17:05] Uh in or admit that or you can sit or [17:11] you can stay silent and admit that they [17:13] have the correct version. Thank you for [17:16] watching and I'll see you in the next
