Transcript [00:02] Good afternoon and I want to welcome uh [00:05] everybody to today's podcast. I'm Dexter [00:07] Vanzle. I'm the managing editor of Focus [00:10] on Western Islamism [00:12] uh which is the uh counterlimist news [00:14] outlet that was established by the [00:16] Middle East forum in 2022. [00:20] And right now today's guest is Tim our [00:23] and he is a research fellow with the [00:24] Institute for the Study of Global [00:26] Anti-semitism and Policy otherwise known [00:29] as ISGAP [00:30] and is the author of a forthcoming book, [00:33] What Anti-semitism Explains: Why Failed [00:35] Ideologies Blame Jews. [00:38] >> Uh before October 7th, uh Tim's work [00:42] centered on interfaith dialogue with [00:45] Shia Muslim scholars. Uh and then he but [00:48] he's written previously about how [00:50] landing in London on October 8th, 2023 [00:54] and walking into a demonstration that [00:56] was already organized and already fluent [00:59] in the language of resistance and [01:01] apartheid before Israel had fired a shot [01:04] convinced him that dialogue alone could [01:06] no longer do the work that he thought it [01:08] that he hoped it would. Since then, his [01:11] research has shifted towards the [01:12] theological roots of Islamist [01:14] anti-semitism, [01:16] including how Iranian Shia messianic [01:18] expectations shapes political behavior. [01:22] And today we're talking with him about [01:24] essentially what he saw uh on October [01:27] 8th, 2023. [01:30] So talk to me a little bit about your [01:32] background and how you got into all of [01:34] this first. [01:35] >> Sure. Sure. I I just had one little uh [01:38] question. I actually landed on October [01:41] 7th. [01:41] >> Wow. All right. [01:43] >> And and so October 8th, I begin to see [01:46] the reaction and that kind of unfolded. [01:50] Um but yeah, I um uh was about 12 years [01:56] ago I began connecting with Muslims and [01:59] that become kind of a Christian [02:02] interfaith ministry for me. [02:05] um they afforded me opportunities to [02:09] speak at mosque. So I was kind of a a a [02:13] bit of a part of the CI intellectual [02:17] community in uh um in in in London and [02:23] but my motivation is more inner faith [02:27] but not the inner faith that is [02:31] associated with progressing [02:33] Christianity. I I I'm coming from an [02:36] evangelical theological background [02:40] and and and so there's a little bit of [02:42] difference there. But I think um what I [02:47] did was and initially is is kind of take [02:52] uh um moral idealism a little bit of it [02:56] and and what that means is your [02:58] discussions are based upon sort of uh [03:03] Islam's best faith and and you're [03:05] discussing different ideas. My objective [03:10] was to bring a Christian understanding [03:13] and uh but um October 7th completely [03:19] changed that [03:21] and I always had this worldview but it [03:24] but um it really um become very [03:29] important on how I interacted with [03:32] Muslims [03:34] and and so my research sifted [03:38] for more diagnostic kind of evaluations [03:42] of Islam and it became PMIC because of [03:46] what I saw, what I experienced and what [03:50] I believe uh uh what need to be conveyed [03:55] uh um because that experience [03:58] was um [04:01] so eyeopening. I knew about Islam. by [04:05] studying it enough to know what the uh [04:08] uh canonical Islam looked like and those [04:12] kind of things, but I wasn't sure that [04:15] was present in the West. This experience [04:19] completely changed my paradigm. [04:22] >> You're a Christian, an evangelical [04:24] Christian. [04:25] >> You interacted and immersed yourself in [04:27] the Shiite Muslim community in London. [04:30] >> Yeah. and you basically wanted to be an [04:32] interlocator [04:33] uh with uh for Muslims in the West and [04:37] and and kind of help non-Muslims in the [04:40] West see Islam's best face. [04:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. And uh because my basic [04:46] motivation was relation relational but [04:51] as a evangelical I also want to share my [04:55] faith uh uh so they can see clearly the [04:59] gospel. So it was more love and [05:02] compassion oriented and that's still [05:04] important but and I conveyed the truth [05:08] in other words the differences between [05:10] the two faith but I I didn't come with [05:12] the critical lie that I do now. [05:15] >> All right. So what happened on October [05:17] 8, 2023? [05:19] >> Yeah. Uh well uh first of all I landed [05:21] on October 7th. [05:22] >> Okay. I had um you go over the pond so [05:27] to speak and you lose internet [05:30] connection. [05:32] So I had no idea what what had happened. [05:35] But I was there to meet seite leaders [05:38] for two weeks [snorts] and do the [05:42] interfaith thing that I usually do. We [05:46] talk about different texts. We build [05:48] relationships and so on. But something [05:53] uh uh um uh I I was on a text ring [05:58] and uh after this had happened, after I [06:01] had landed, I began to see the sort of [06:06] the um the vocabulary often times that [06:11] is used uh uh by progressives of [06:16] apartheid and genocide and and those [06:20] kinds to things. A a and what I noticed [06:24] there was absolutely no empathy [06:27] whatsoever. [06:29] And October 8th is when I begin to see [06:33] it at large because I left. I began to [06:37] see the protest. I began to see there [06:41] was no empathy at all for what had taken [06:46] place. [06:47] There was no concern over the the [06:49] massacre or the violence or the the [06:52] kidnappings, the rapes, [06:55] all the stuff that took place on October [06:57] 7th. There was no Did Nobody said, "Hey, [06:59] this isn't right." or anything or [07:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I drove by on them. [07:04] I went to church on that Sunday. I drove [07:07] by in my Uber uh uh car and and saw some [07:11] of the protests. [07:14] And there's kind of four things [07:17] that on October 8th that that that [07:22] really mattered to me. One was the speed [07:27] in which uh uh people had already taken [07:31] sides almost instantaneously. [07:35] Later on, I found out that [07:37] [clears throat] after a couple hours [07:39] after this happened, they were already [07:41] trying to secure licenses so they can [07:45] have a protest. [07:47] I wasn't prepared [07:50] uh for this. [07:52] I was famili I I did a lot of Muslim [07:56] interfaith work. I knew that Iranian [07:59] Shia had a problem with Israel. That was [08:03] not a surprise. [08:05] Uh um but there was no empathy and sort [08:10] of the ideology [08:12] instantaneously [08:14] locked in [08:16] and and of course the content mattered [08:19] as well. The things I was hearing uh uh [08:22] this sort of resistance kind of you know [08:26] empty [08:28] and and those kind of things. [08:31] But I'm I'm sitting there thinking [08:35] that individual civilians had just been [08:39] murdered and kidnapped and assaulted [08:44] and it was uh um for the people to see [08:51] and an unexplicable evil. [08:54] A and and but the language that they [08:58] were using made this abstract [09:02] a a and uh rather than uh something [09:07] concrete evil that had happened [09:10] and there was obviously no moral [09:13] hesitation. People were already making [09:16] up their minds before any evidence at [09:19] all was given. A and it quite frankly it [09:25] caused me to re-evaluate almost [09:30] immediately [09:32] um how do I dialogue [09:36] with w with people and of course I had [09:39] to think it through with a strategy but [09:43] I knew [09:45] that what I saw and part of the [09:48] intellectual community [09:51] at I was in [snorts] completely [09:54] evaporated because what I did was I uh [09:58] stated publicly my support for Israel. [10:03] >> Had you done that before October 7th [10:06] with the the the uh the Muslim [10:08] intellectuals that you were interacting [10:10] with or [10:11] >> Yeah. And we would have calm discussions [10:15] [snorts] [10:16] and I would give it but nothing public [10:19] and nothing that would publicly try to [10:22] refrigerate [10:24] what their esqueological goals were [10:28] and and because I wanted to um uh uh you [10:33] know share my faith and with an American [10:37] evangelical [10:38] traditionally and that was certainly [10:40] true with me Israel is very important, [10:43] >> right? And I knew they disagreed with [10:46] it, but what I saw re there, so they [10:50] already knew that kind of about me. [10:53] But immediately afterwards, I spoke [10:57] publicly condemning what had happened. [11:01] All of a sudden, I was completely [11:04] uh um uh disowned. Um, [11:12] and this is uh um her she's a scholar. [11:16] She's a professor still there at Islamic [11:20] College. She's a white American scholar. [11:24] She's a Shia believer. Her name is Amina [11:27] and Loaz. And here's what she said. I [11:31] read your recent post on Facebook [11:34] regarding the protest. [11:36] I 100% support student protest as well [11:41] as the process in London and attended [11:44] them myself. [11:46] I really can't stomach the views you are [11:50] presenting which I find despicable and [11:53] I'm not interested in debating it. I [11:56] regret I supported you in your PhD [11:59] application. [12:00] your relationship with my colleague is [12:03] your business, but please do not contact [12:07] me again." [12:10] And and we were friends when I would go [12:12] there, we'd go out for coffee, but that [12:15] was [12:17] um a deal breaker for her. [12:21] >> Now, the protests that you saw on [12:23] October 8th, were they mostly leftists [12:25] or were they uh some Muslims? I would [12:28] say from what I can tell uh uh they're [12:32] definitely leftists cuz they were um [12:34] there were a lot of white people there. [12:36] >> Yeah. [12:37] >> Right. and but they were Muslims as [12:39] well. And you can you can kind of uh uh [12:42] tell that I think sort of it's an [12:46] interesting um relationship these two [12:50] groups have what's called the you know [12:54] the red green alliance and uh it's very [12:58] real. [12:59] Um it is uh the the progressives [13:05] provide the moral vocabulary, [13:09] but the Muslims provide often times the [13:13] narrative, [13:15] the the Palestinian [13:17] cause and so on. [13:20] A and and and so I think they have the [13:24] same [13:25] goal kind of. [13:27] >> Mhm. [13:28] But I think uh eventually uh they're [13:33] going to have to come to an impass [13:35] and once they quote won or or whatever [13:39] then uh they're not going to be [13:41] continued allies. [13:43] >> Okay, [13:44] >> and Islam will win that medal. One of [13:46] the questions that I have at this point [13:48] is um [13:51] uh [13:53] obviously we know that the Islamist [13:55] movement in the west hates Israel and [13:58] Islamism in general and that and it's [14:00] rooted in basically the canonical and [14:02] theological underpinnings of Islam. We [14:05] know that that's pretty well rooted [14:06] there [14:07] >> just the same way that Christian [14:08] anti-semitism was rooted in [14:11] >> uh scriptural anti-Judaism and the [14:14] doctrine of the early church fathers. [14:17] >> Right. Right. [14:18] >> But it doesn't just you know it doesn't [14:22] stop with Israel. did do you start to [14:24] recognize or discern any sort of [14:27] hostility towards the west in general on [14:30] the part of the the uh the scholars that [14:33] you had been dealing with that you [14:34] hadn't seen before? Um I I think it was [14:37] more because they're in the west they're [14:41] governed by a redemptive narrative even [14:44] secular philosophies [14:47] and they want to bring about a certain [14:49] liberation goal there and and yes I [14:55] begin to to to see it. I really begin to [14:59] see it with my relationship with my [15:03] Muslim friends. [15:06] Um, I I uh came home and I talked to a [15:10] mosque and they said uh you know I asked [15:14] them what do you do with this wi- with [15:17] uh um uh Hamas [15:21] and they said well we believe they're [15:23] freedom fighters [15:25] and that was really a um [15:32] important [15:34] thing that uh to understand for [15:37] everyone. I I I think that [15:41] they have a certain [15:44] um uh esquetology [15:48] and they're moving towards that and it's [15:52] basically Islamic dominance. [snorts] [15:56] uh and um [15:59] those who are Jewish and those who are [16:02] in the west are more powerful than they [16:06] are. So they that that is an enemy that [16:09] must be defeated. [16:11] Okay. And uh then you have on the left [16:15] um it's different but they see the [16:20] problem of the west as an oppressing [16:24] system and so that has to be torn down. [16:28] So uh for my estimation [16:31] that is one of the connections [16:34] strategically [16:36] because uh Muslims are 1% [16:39] uh heading towards 2% of the population [16:43] in the United States but they're far [16:45] more influential than that. They have [16:48] certain organizations. the Muslim [16:50] Brotherhood. I is very much um a part of [16:56] that and and and so um uh uh [17:01] progressives [17:02] will not criticize Islam at all. [17:06] >> Right? [17:07] >> Because they divide everything to [17:09] oppress and oppressor. And to them, [17:12] Islam is the oppressed and they're going [17:16] to fight on behalf of the oppressed. [17:18] >> Okay? [17:20] Your current research looks at how [17:21] Irania Iranian Shia messianic [17:24] expectations [17:26] belief in the Madi's return is uh used [17:28] to justify anti-semitism as divinely [17:31] ordained. [17:32] >> Yeah. [17:32] >> Um and how confident are you that this [17:35] framing is driving political decisions [17:38] not just in teran but also on the part [17:41] of Iranian supporters in the United [17:44] States and in the West. You know, I've [17:46] been in Shia Moss in uh [17:50] >> in London and also Dearbornne [17:53] >> and [17:55] um in in in London I saw a picture of uh [18:00] Ayatollah Kmeni hanging on the wall. [18:02] >> Mhm. [18:03] >> And at a mosque in Dearborn, a Shia [18:06] mosque in Dearborn. [18:07] >> Uh [18:09] one guy said 95% of the people who [18:12] attend the mosque essentially support [18:14] Hezbollah. So, so talk to me about that. [18:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's really [18:19] intertwined with their uh esquetology [18:23] and there's a framing [18:26] that starts with in early on with one of [18:31] their early imams uh uh getting uh [18:36] killed. And so there is sort of a [18:40] >> you talked about the battle at Carbala. [18:43] >> Yes. Okay. exactly what I'm talking [18:45] about. So, it kind of starts there and [18:48] that frames the revolutionary type of [18:52] idea, but that culminates in the return [18:57] of the body. A and and and so that [19:02] esquetology [19:04] frames a lot of it. Uh because you you [19:09] have um uh uh um [19:14] this idea that really Kmeni really [19:19] instituted [19:20] in a lot of ways. [19:23] uh because [19:25] Shia Islam really changed [19:29] uh be because of him. uh um in in in [19:33] some ways in that he brought what what [19:38] is called the guardian of the jurist. [19:42] And in that you have the body is still [19:46] the one who is all powerful is the one [19:49] who has authority on earth because in [19:52] Cathe theology there has to be someone [19:55] on earth to guard the faithful. [19:58] And so what you have with uh uh with [20:02] with Pani, he does this sort of um uh uh [20:09] uh ingenuity, theological ingenuity to [20:13] say, well, you know what? You need a [20:15] human being to to to help sort of uh uh [20:20] bring that about. You got to have some [20:22] un earth. It's really uh years I mean de [20:26] uh centuries ago there was a change in [20:30] the theology from the Akbari system to [20:34] the usili system and basically you can [20:37] use independent reasoning uh uh um and [20:42] uh he does that and he says well there [20:45] has to be someone given the direction to [20:49] the um so they can be rightly guided. [20:53] Okay. So he assumes that role. Now when [20:59] when he assumes that role he brings [21:03] about very political because prior to [21:05] that um the idea was we're waiting for [21:10] the money to return [21:13] and and so we're not going to take that [21:15] kind of authority uh uh uh to sort of [21:19] engineer something like this. And and so [21:22] that was their paradigm. But what Kami [21:26] does, he now has authority [21:30] and they uh uh they do that. But I think [21:35] there's another thing that really plays [21:38] into this is and that's the Iran Iraq [21:42] war [21:44] that begins to uh he he implements this [21:49] sort of theological ideology [21:52] in the Iran and Iraq war and uh you have [21:56] things like the IRGC. [22:00] he didn't quite trust the army that was [22:03] kind of somewhat dedicated to the SA. So [22:07] they needed an ide ideological army [22:10] there. So the IRGC which is now more [22:13] powerful there. [22:15] >> So uh and that was part of what was [22:18] taking place. [22:19] >> Okay. [22:20] >> And so out of that those things become [22:23] normalized and it still exists. I've [22:25] read and I've seen on display, you know, [22:28] in Dearborn where there's a significant [22:31] gnome [22:32] >> is people who essentially use like the [22:35] battle of Carbala. [22:37] >> Yes. [22:37] >> As essentially a a a model with which to [22:40] kind of view the world and view the [22:42] enemies of their community. [22:44] >> Yeah. [22:44] >> Uh including the the Jews, the Trump [22:47] administration, the Epstein [22:50] community. [22:51] >> Uhhuh. [22:53] One of the difficulties that I see is I [22:56] have is trying to convince people that [22:58] Muslims living in the west actually use [23:02] that framework to motivate and direct [23:06] their behavior even as they live in [23:08] western democracies. [23:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I would think uh the one [23:13] there that Carbala narrative is [23:16] basically you have sort of the idea of [23:19] their vers justice. the oppressed and [23:22] oppressor kind of uh uh I idea and of [23:27] course they're no oppressed and one day [23:29] the body will liberate them. But that [23:32] sort of they're oppressed is fairly [23:34] deeply [23:36] ingrained [23:38] in in in their understanding. What type [23:42] of impact does does that carbala [23:44] narrative have on the ability of uh Shia [23:48] Muslims to kind of live in a pluralistic [23:50] society in Western democracies? Because [23:53] it looks like the second it got [23:55] energized or activated by October 7th [23:58] >> Yeah. [23:58] >> they kicked you to the curb. [24:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I would say [24:04] this that on October on that two weeks [24:07] that I was there and I survived by Uber [24:12] while I'm there. Uh so I I drive on the [24:15] wrong side of the road so I I can't do [24:18] that. So I go on Uber. I went on the 21 [24:20] or 22 Uber rides. [24:23] >> 18 of them were contentuous [24:27] >> and um because I would bring up what do [24:30] you think can happen? But it's almost [24:32] like I got the feeling that they thought [24:35] they were vindicated [24:37] and and so so that narrative there uh um [24:42] you know that's a pretty decent sample [24:45] size. [24:46] >> Yeah. you know, uh uh for that. Um I I [24:51] think that [24:52] um one thing that makes the carbala [24:56] thing [24:57] um entrenched, [24:59] it is a yearly ritual that you practice [25:04] physically. I'm sure if you grew up see [25:08] a Muslim, you grew up with a narrative [25:11] carbala. [25:12] If you went to the mosque, [snorts] [25:15] you heard the um that narrative [25:20] reinforced. I think that um that [25:25] narrative is very entrenched. [snorts] [25:28] Now, how it works out in Shia and Sunni [25:34] [snorts] is a little different in [25:35] America in my opinion. [25:38] uh because you uh uh she is very hooked [25:41] to Iran sort of the revolutionary [25:43] ideology [25:45] and Sunni [snorts] [25:47] uh by and large their strategy has been [25:50] sort of the Muslim Brotherhood kind of [25:53] strategy [25:54] where they connect with uh uh [25:58] progressives [26:00] and they link with them with academics. [26:03] They're very much high kind of [26:06] intellectual types that build the [26:09] relationships, build alliances and and [26:13] and so on, but they take a gradual [26:16] approach. [26:18] you know, they they they say we have a [26:20] hundred-year plan and right now they're [26:23] halfway through that hundredyear plan, [26:27] but they take a gradual approach and it [26:29] looks far more tame than it what it [26:32] really is. Um, and so it becomes more [26:36] believable. [26:37] >> Yeah. [26:39] Now, I I think one of the reasons why I [26:41] was so interested in having you speak is [26:43] be and talking to you is because I I've [26:47] seen a fair number of people and I've [26:49] got a long history of dealing with [26:50] issues related to this is the people in [26:52] the interfaith community generally they [26:55] they they have a legitimate desire to [26:58] kind of see Islam in in the most benign [27:01] light as possible. [27:02] >> Yeah. And the and the the thing is is [27:05] that you were basically kind of um [27:07] ambushed by reality. [27:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. [27:10] >> Uh people in the interfaith community, [27:12] what's your advice to these people uh on [27:15] the Christian side of the dialogue who [27:17] say, "Look, we really need to, you know, [27:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. [27:21] >> is is that they they're willing to [27:22] essentially ignore or deny real problems [27:27] >> associated with how Islam is practiced [27:29] in the modern world. So So what's your [27:31] advice to them? I have little hope for [27:34] them uh uh uh to be honest because [27:38] they're so entrenched in their um what [27:42] I'll call kindly a theology [27:45] and um they are uh um sort of really [27:51] immersed into the social justice woke [27:54] narrative and it's so much part of their [27:57] ideology. I I worked for a few years [28:00] studying congregations [snorts] with [28:04] Indiana University and I and um I I [28:08] think that um that seems to be not [28:12] everyone of course but definitely the [28:15] leaders [28:17] uh um and and that's the problem but [28:21] when you talk about the interfaith [28:23] community [28:24] they has a long history with white [28:28] liberal Protestantism [28:30] and they must come from a um a a [28:36] worldview [28:37] that will not [28:40] speak anything negative towards Islam. [28:43] It's a very idealistic [28:46] kind of worldview. [28:48] And so for them to uh change, [28:53] they would really have to ab uh uh [28:56] abandon at least to some degree that [28:59] worldview and look at things like the [29:03] canonical text [29:05] and uh the objective, [29:08] but they're sort of immersed in this [29:10] post-modern idea [29:13] and of subjectivity. [29:15] So they would have to uh abandon some of [29:18] their core convictions [29:22] uh to do that. And I was um talking to [29:26] an a wife of an Episcopal priest, very [29:30] prominent one one day on the on the [29:32] airplane and what she said uh uh [29:36] suddenly a little bit. She says, "We [29:39] know one day we will no longer exist." [29:44] And I thought they are committed even if [29:47] it's it's sort of intertwined with [29:50] that's their sort of bags of [29:52] righteousness that that is their uh um [29:57] we'll bring about will attempt to bring [30:00] about social justice even if our [30:02] denomination dies their version of [30:05] social justice. So, um, [30:10] if, [30:11] uh, evidence mattered, [30:14] I think they would already change by [30:16] now. [30:18] But I've seen very little shift [30:21] there. I know. I wish I could get a [30:24] better picture of it, but I've just been [30:27] doing this too long, right? [30:30] the interfaith community is unable to [30:32] basically muster the the honesty and the [30:35] reality and the yeah uh the worldview [30:39] necessary to to confront Islamism in the [30:42] west then then what do we do? [30:46] >> Yeah. I I I think um [30:50] definitely the other Christian [30:52] denominations [30:54] are important on this. And I think the [30:56] most even though I'm not happy with the [31:00] younger evangelicals, [31:02] I think the evangelicals [31:04] [snorts] will call out things. They will [31:08] be the one they're they're one piece [31:11] that they will uh be honest about Islam. [31:14] The sort of the canonical [31:17] kind of um uh uh what the Quran says, [31:20] what the Houd says, and and they're more [31:23] willing to bring because they never [31:25] bought in really to the interfaith [31:26] idealism. [31:28] >> Okay. [31:29] >> Uh um Catholicism did. Um but we'll see [31:35] what happens with that. Recently, uh uh [31:38] they elected Amy Jill uh Levine [31:43] uh uh to a prominent post. I I don't [31:46] remember what exactly it is, but she's [31:48] received a lot of anti-semitic [31:51] responses to her appointment as a as a [31:56] orthodox Jew on a Catholic [32:00] thing. Um, so I I I think that there has [32:05] to be [32:07] a a continuing [32:10] effort [32:11] to expand allies [32:15] on this subject particularly [32:16] anti-semitism. [32:18] I I I think there is a continued [32:23] uh sort of um an effort to expose [32:27] people. A lot of people, you know, [32:29] they'll unfortunately get their media uh [32:33] get their information from social media. [32:36] Social media is a real big problem [32:41] and you have podcasters that will take [32:44] advantage of the way it works to uh to [32:48] um make money or you know and and so [32:53] that is one thing that has to be [32:56] addressed. Now, I'm not a guy that [32:59] believes in regulation like that. Uh uh [33:04] because I I'm more fearful of what [33:06] happens when they overregulate the [33:08] internet. Uh uh but um something has to [33:14] be done about the internet because it's [33:18] persuading too many people. [33:19] >> Okay. Now, I got a question about have [33:22] you interacted with any of the Muslim [33:24] scholars that you were friends with or [33:26] interacted with before October 7th more [33:29] recently and and yeah, is there any hope [33:33] for them to abandon the cause of [33:36] Islamism or and to work to update how [33:39] their their faith is practiced in the [33:41] modern world or do they are they still [33:43] triumphilists? [33:44] um you know it well among Muslim [33:48] scholars there's [33:51] well there's one issue [33:53] you you have sort of the Muslim scholars [33:56] who are more believers first and [33:59] scholars second then you have sort of [34:02] the uh uh western university uh uh [34:06] engage a little bit in criticism but [34:09] within the scholarly enterprise itself [34:13] else [34:14] you are rewarded for critical of Islam. [34:19] I mean critical of uh Israel. [34:22] A a guy by the name of Edward say [34:26] uh uh made it uh difficult to criticize [34:29] Islam [34:31] and and his legacy continues to live on. [34:35] That's why you have MESA, one [34:39] organization that's more of the a think [34:41] tank kind of organization where scholars [34:44] go and and give their research and Asmia [34:49] uh uh that is um associated with Bernard [34:53] Lewis [34:54] and because they couldn't get a fair [34:57] state there. I I know for me [35:01] um I purposely am not linked too heavy [35:06] with the university. [35:08] I would rather have my livelihood [35:11] dependent on donors because I am free to [35:15] speak truth right a and and I'm free to [35:20] do that more and more and my scholarship [35:22] is deepening this area. I'm seeing the [35:26] relevance of that, [35:27] >> right? [35:28] >> And um I don't want to be hampered [35:31] by uh uh anti-semitic bureaucrats, [35:36] >> right? So [35:37] >> now I guess one of the questions though [35:38] is is it long term it's going to be up [35:40] to Muslims themselves to essentially [35:44] uh update how their faith is practiced [35:46] if if that's going to happen. [35:48] >> Uh as Christians is, you know, all we [35:50] can do is basically just try to hold the [35:52] line, [35:53] >> right? [35:53] >> So Do you see any sign that that the [35:57] line is being held and that uh that that [36:01] people on the people within the Islamic [36:04] world or with the community that you [36:06] used to interact with have they started [36:08] to say look we we have to do something [36:11] different or or because the thing is is [36:13] that they want the fruits of the west. [36:15] They want the the you know the material [36:17] benefits of living in western [36:19] democracies. [36:20] uh they want and but at the same time [36:22] they are not interested in essentially [36:25] embracing the habits of mind or patterns [36:27] of speech that brought those those [36:29] material benefits about. [36:32] >> Yeah. Some of that depends on whether if [36:36] they're hooked on to an organization [36:39] their their their livelihood is it is [36:42] tied to that kind of narrative. [36:45] But if you're talking sometimes to the [36:48] everyday Joe or um and um he may be [36:53] there just to make a living and um but [36:58] he really doesn't have any institutional [37:00] power. Um but I think [37:05] on because the narrative is so strong [37:09] in Islamic esquetology, [37:11] it makes this is suddenly different [37:14] because what Islam does, it promises [37:17] success. [37:19] And when you look at think about what [37:22] Christians would think if a mayor in [37:27] Saudi Arabia [37:29] was a Christian and got elected may [37:31] there and it doesn't happen. But I'm [37:33] just saying if it did, what would you [37:36] think? Well, what is promised about the [37:39] Christians must be coming true. Maybe [37:41] there's a revival taking place uh uh [37:45] there in Saudi Arabia. Now, think about [37:48] what happens when you're a a Muslim and [37:51] you see Manami [37:54] >> and [37:56] look what the rhetoric that he's using, [37:58] which is the same rhetoric you probably [38:01] hear at the local mosque [38:04] >> and you have backing and it looks like [38:07] he's successful. Well, that sort of in [38:11] some way solidifies the escatological [38:14] narrative [38:16] >> and and and and so that makes it in my [38:18] opinion very tough. [38:20] >> Okay. That's a cogent warning about I [38:23] think the threats that we face. [38:25] >> Yes. [38:25] >> Um Yes. So [38:28] >> and and that's why I say the work you [38:31] do, the work I do is so important [38:36] and and because [38:39] it is really on the front lines of [38:42] confronting [38:44] evil. I still want to build [38:46] relationships with Muslims. I do that. [38:49] That's the only way you convince people [38:52] that uh show them love, that kind of [38:55] thing. But I can't surrender the truth [38:59] particularly as such as a a time as [39:02] this. I don't think it was an accident [39:04] for me to go there and get an education [39:09] there, then land on October 7th and [39:13] experience what I did. I feel an [39:16] obligation and a purpose to engage in [39:21] this kind of work. [39:22] >> All right. Well, I want to thank you, [39:25] Tim, uh, for speaking with me today, and [39:28] I want to thank our viewers for [39:29] watching, uh, today's podcast. Thank you [39:31] so much.
