Transcript [00:00] This stuff has expanded so rapidly in [00:02] Europe across so many European countries [00:05] that I don't think if you you could just [00:07] you could isolate it to France but it's [00:10] going to keep going and this is not to [00:12] make the case against immigration. I am [00:14] American. I love immigration but I love [00:16] the way we deal with immigration. I [00:18] think Europe has made a number of very [00:20] very obvious mistakes in integration and [00:23] just general immigration policy. The [00:26] question I have is it will it topple [00:28] governments? I don't think I have been [00:30] to a Jewish event, bar mitzvah, wedding, [00:34] a dinner where I have not encountered a [00:38] conversation about, you know, where [00:40] should we go? Do we still have a future [00:42] here? Um, most people, I think, have [00:44] answered that question already. So, I [00:47] would really urge Americans to very very [00:49] closely look at what uh what is [00:51] happening in Europe and not believe that [00:53] this is just going to stay here. [01:08] First, a quick housekeeping note. On [01:10] Tuesday, October 27th at 10 p.m. Israel [01:13] time, 400 p.m. here in New York, the [01:15] exit polls will come out for the Israeli [01:18] election. That is the moment of truth [01:21] and it's when I'll host a live election [01:23] night conversation for members of the [01:25] fold, our private community for [01:27] listeners of Call Me Back and the rest [01:29] of the Ark Media family. I'll be joined [01:31] by expert guests from Israel to help [01:34] unpack what exactly is happening. We'll [01:37] track the results as they come in and [01:38] we'll work through which coalitions can [01:40] actually get to 61 seats or not. 61 [01:44] being the majority needed to form a new [01:46] government. To join us, go to arkdia.org [01:50] to subscribe to The Fold. We'll begin [01:52] the live stream at 3:55 p.m. Now, on to [01:57] the episode. [02:01] The streets of Paris are literally on [02:04] fire. [02:06] Street signs are getting taken down. [02:08] Shoot, I just got shot [02:12] here, guys. Can't see anything. [02:14] Can't see anything. [02:16] Oh my gosh. [02:20] >> Ever listen to Call Me Back and think to [02:21] yourself, "This would be so much better [02:23] if a meet went on a rant about the [02:25] latest celebrity who said something [02:26] stupid about Israel." Or if Nadav ranked [02:29] every member of Kesset by how hot they [02:30] are. Tune in to our show, Chosen People [02:32] Problems, for the Real News. Yeah, [02:34] because that's what the world needs. [02:36] More Jews in media. Yeah, like more Jews [02:39] with strong opinions about things. [02:41] >> I think we should do it one more time. I [02:42] don't Yeah, I can't. You could say it. I [02:44] just don't want to say it. [02:46] >> What did I say? [02:46] >> We both did. Yeah. Like we're not Why [02:49] are we doing that? It sounds so [02:50] [ย __ย ] Sorry for those listening and [02:53] editing this. [02:53] >> It's going to get worse from here. By [02:55] the way, listen to our show, Chosen [02:58] People Problems. This should actually be [03:00] the intro. Okay. Chosen People Problems. [03:04] We're like a meat and a dove, but more [03:06] so. Please tune in or Dan Cena will be [03:08] mad at us. You can find Chosen People [03:11] Problems wherever you get your podcasts. [03:13] You can also listen adree and get access [03:14] to our weekly exclusive bonus episode by [03:17] joining art plus at arcdia.org. [03:21] >> Simone Michael, thanks for joining. Call [03:24] me back. [03:25] >> Thanks for having me. [03:26] >> Thanks for having us. [03:28] >> Simone, you are you were there. You're [03:30] in the lion's den in the belly of the [03:32] beast. So, I want to start with you. You [03:35] you're joining us from Paris. Yesterday, [03:37] I asked uh on the fold, which is Arc [03:39] Media's private community. I said, "Hey, [03:41] we're I'm preparing this uh episode. I'm [03:44] preparing for this conversation I'd be [03:45] having with the two of you. What is most [03:47] on people's minds? What were people most [03:50] curious about?" And it I got some [03:52] incredible suggestions and and [03:54] questions. And everybody basically [03:56] wanted to know this. What happened in [03:59] France seems to have begun as a student [04:01] protest but turned into a multi- sector [04:04] riot. And it's hard to gauge who the [04:08] groups are in a way that doesn't like [04:11] you know I think everyone I'm talking to [04:12] and I could even see it in these in [04:14] these comments in the fold everyone is [04:15] going to their priors like whatever you [04:17] believe going into this about who's [04:20] responsible for the problems in society [04:21] you you you can find a way to find those [04:24] characters in this crisis. So I want you [04:27] just in a kind of just analytical way [04:31] tell us who are the different groups [04:33] driving the unrest, what unites them, [04:35] what do they want, like who who are we [04:37] dealing with here? [04:38] >> Um so let me start out I think with [04:40] something that I think nevertheless [04:42] needs to be said. It started um with [04:46] students and that is legitimate. Uh it [04:49] started with you know um young students [04:51] in the what we call the Bonu in the [04:54] suburbs um who were unhappy uh with the [04:58] situation in their schools. There were [05:00] roofs leaking. There were problems with [05:02] teachers. Um that was basically a month [05:05] ago. Um but very very quickly uh it has [05:09] turned into something different even [05:11] before the latest unrest. I mean even [05:13] when you started to see uh the school [05:17] unrest uh as well and I think one major [05:21] actor um that we need to talk about is [05:23] Jean Luke Milan. Uh Jean Luke Milan is [05:26] uh the presidential candidate for the [05:29] unbounded party. Uh it's the far left. [05:32] Uh the equivalent in the US is probably [05:34] the DSA. He has run on a number of [05:37] occasions already on in the past. [05:39] >> Is he currently in government in any [05:40] role? No, he is not in government in any [05:43] form. Um he is in the opposition. He has [05:47] uh several members of parliament though [05:49] both in the national parliament and in [05:51] the European Parliament. Uh he's run [05:53] before um as a presidential candidate. [05:55] In the last presidential elections he [05:57] got 22% which is pretty substantial. Um [06:01] and um he has a very clear plan. He his [06:05] objective is to be facing Marine Lupin [06:09] the national far-right candidate in the [06:12] second round of the presidential [06:14] elections. So what he has done through [06:17] his discourse is basically to try and [06:20] get uh young people people from [06:23] immigrant background to focus on uh [06:27] certain aspects. what we had about a [06:29] year ago and even in particular since [06:31] October 7th is he got young people and [06:34] people from immigrant communities to [06:35] focus on Gaza. So for months for more [06:39] than months everything was about Gaza. [06:42] Um it obviously they've been calling it [06:44] genocide every single you know [06:47] everything issue they would be talking [06:49] about about would be Gaza. Now he has [06:52] managed to bring young young students to [06:55] focus on their unhappiness and I think [06:58] it's beyond just the issue of you know [07:00] overcrow crowded classrooms and it's [07:02] it's their general generational unease. [07:05] I mean this is a a generation that uh [07:09] that has you know that we are to whom we [07:11] are saying that you know they will be [07:12] replaced by robots and AI uh who are [07:15] scared about the future who are scared [07:17] about uh the war currently on their [07:20] continent and so it's very easy to get [07:22] them uh engaged um and with that he has [07:26] also brought um you know several sort of [07:31] anti-far [07:32] uh radical far-left groups groups that [07:35] are willing to go and create violence. [07:38] Uh so this is what the government has [07:40] told us. Um the government and the [07:42] intelligence community have clearly said [07:44] that these are radical far-left violent [07:47] movements but in particular anti-Israel [07:50] and sometimes pro- Hamas movements um [07:53] that uh that he had also previously [07:56] activated um and then of course you have [07:59] Islamist group groups um who have done [08:01] who have come to that as well with that [08:03] you have social media uh and very very [08:05] quickly obviously this blows out of [08:07] control. Does he think [08:11] this is going well? [08:12] >> I think he does. I think what he doesn't [08:15] what he's probably not so happy about uh [08:18] is all of the ransacking of and people [08:21] like really literally taking things out [08:23] of shops. Uh you know that that is [08:25] probably not something he likes. But I [08:26] think the overall idea of uh creating [08:29] violence and uh and conflict he does he [08:33] has said this and repeatedly said and [08:36] written about this in the past. I mean [08:37] he has an actual theory about this is [08:40] the idea and it's based on a on on an [08:42] intellectual called Shantal MU and it's [08:45] the idea the politics of permanent [08:47] confrontation um it's the idea that you [08:50] know you can bring different groups [08:52] together who have different grievances [08:54] uh and uh you connect them and the the [08:58] you create an an adversary and which is [09:02] the establishment, the elites, the [09:03] existing order and through that um they [09:07] they create an inability to have any [09:10] form of conversation or dialogue um in [09:13] the country. Now what is his political [09:15] you know endgame? My belief is that he [09:18] wants um Marin Lupin to be in the second [09:22] round of the election which you know [09:24] according to all polls is currently the [09:26] case and for him to be the only [09:28] candidate facing her. Uh for him it [09:30] produces a win-win situation. either [09:33] Marin Lupin will win uh in which case he [09:36] will be the only opposition figure um [09:38] and if you think we you have seen [09:40] violence now I think we don't even know [09:42] what what's going to happen uh the day [09:44] after um and in the best case scenario [09:48] for him he will be able to convince [09:50] people in the second round of the [09:52] elections that we are facing uh you know [09:54] the great fascism and that it's better [09:57] to vote for him uh than for her and that [10:00] in my view is entirely his strategy [10:03] Okay, I want to talk, Michael, about [10:05] where immigr immigration and [10:08] anti-semitism fit into this crisis. [10:11] France has struggled for decades to [10:13] integrate parts of its immigrant [10:15] population and this immigrant population [10:18] has been growing and growing and [10:19] growing, especially over the past 10 [10:21] years or so. How did the free Palestine [10:24] movement become part of this wider [10:26] protest movement? And and and what is [10:28] the free Palestine movement? Who's it [10:30] comprised of in in this in this context? [10:33] >> We haven't heard much about Gaza and [10:36] Palest Palestinian movement in the [10:38] American coverage, even in European [10:40] coverage. It is kind of odd though when [10:43] you see images from France. Um, and I [10:46] think uh Simon is will, you know, go out [10:48] in the streets and say this herself, you [10:50] don't see a lot of French flags, do you? [10:52] >> Right. [10:52] >> You see a lot of Algerian flags. You see [10:54] a lot of Palestinian flags. And this is [10:56] kind of the umbrella of it despite the [10:58] fact that it's not spoken of. Right. The [11:01] free Palestine a aspect of it though in [11:05] Europe is a a very curious thing. It is [11:08] the thing that is the omni cause of the [11:11] left at the moment but it always was in [11:13] the past. I always thought it was [11:14] curious when I lived in Sweden that you [11:17] know that you know we say this in [11:18] America. We it concerns us Americans [11:21] because so much American money goes to [11:22] Israel, right? Why does it concern the [11:25] Swedes so much considering it's on the [11:27] front cover of the newspaper every [11:29] single day? Not a nickel of Swedish [11:32] money is going into weapons in Israel. [11:34] So why is this so important to them? [11:37] Well, I think there's a very very deep [11:39] history there. I mean, Sweden has very [11:41] small Jewish population. I think France [11:42] has the largest Jewish population in in [11:45] Europe. um there's about 20,000 in [11:47] Sweden and so many of those were a [11:49] result of the anti-semitic campaigns in [11:52] in Poland, the anti-so the Soviet [11:55] anti-ionist campaigns, etc. But that [11:57] kind of I mean, as as Christopher [11:58] Hitchens said, you know, anti-semitism [12:00] is the it's the godfather of racism and [12:02] the gateway to tyranny and war, you [12:04] know. I mean, I think I I agree with [12:06] that. It's always the canary in the coal [12:07] mine, but it's always that sort of [12:09] unifying feature in the background, [12:12] which should always worry Jews, too. [12:13] It's the thing that we can all agree [12:15] upon, right? I mean, the government that [12:18] the people in the street want to see um [12:22] destroyed is also the government that [12:24] recognized Palestine last year. A lot of [12:27] good that did. But it's a very it's a [12:29] very odd thing. I mean, if you look [12:31] around the landscape in Europe, this is [12:34] a disease in Europe. And unfortunately, [12:38] it is a disease that hasn't gone away. I [12:40] mean if we look at the choice if you [12:43] have a choice in the second round of [12:45] elections Jeanukon who is a psychotic [12:48] person whose desire is the novel France [12:52] is the sixth republic is to destroy the [12:55] republic as it is now and on the other [12:57] side um Marine Le Pen who's somebody [13:00] who's tried to distance herself from her [13:02] father but her father of course um did [13:06] call the Holocaust a detail of history. [13:09] I mean, so on both sides of this, where [13:11] did Jews go? I know. [13:13] >> Okay, but Michael, and and maybe it's a [13:15] question for you, Simone, as well. I [13:16] mean, Marine Le Pen, the farright [13:18] candidate, this is, I think, the fourth [13:19] time now she's running for president. [13:20] She ran in 2012. She ran in 2017. She [13:23] ran in 2022. Fourth fourth time may be a [13:25] charm. It does seem to me as an outside [13:28] observer that she has moderated over the [13:32] years, and she's not her father's [13:34] daughter anymore. She would never even [13:37] go near the kind of language, Michael, [13:39] that you just cited that, you know, [13:40] Holocaust being detail of history. I [13:42] guess Simone, do you think the Jewish [13:44] community, given what's going on, would [13:46] be more open to Marine Le Pen in this [13:48] environment? [13:49] >> The Jewish community generally thinks [13:50] they have a, you know, they are between [13:53] two bad choices. Uh, but yes, Marine Le [13:56] Pen definitely has done everything uh [14:00] to, you know, become more moderate. She [14:03] actually does believe um that to become [14:07] so to become a a potential pre president [14:10] or to become an actual uh real leader uh [14:14] it actually has to go through uh the [14:16] issue of anti-semitism. Uh she has to [14:19] get uh the kosher stamp. She's done all [14:21] of the effort possible to go to Israel [14:23] to meet Jews. she she believes that that [14:26] that in order to do so um it has to go [14:29] through the Jews, you know, which in [14:30] itself I think is is is interesting to [14:33] say to say the least. Um but yeah, I [14:36] think most Jews to be entirely honest um [14:39] understand that don't particularly uh [14:42] like her because within her party you [14:44] still have a lot of elements uh that are [14:46] problematic. You know, just a couple of [14:48] weeks ago, media, which is the far-left [14:51] newspaper, has released old messages of [14:54] of Jordan Bardella, who is the leader of [14:56] the party, um um who has written [15:00] horrifically anti-semitic things uh [15:03] about more than a decade ago. So that is [15:06] the leader of the party. I mean, whether [15:07] it's true or not, I there seems to be [15:10] pretty clear it is true. Um so, so [15:12] that's the leader of the party. you [15:14] still have a lot of elements within [15:16] parliament within on the local level uh [15:18] where people have you know Nazi owned [15:23] Nazi shops with where books of are being [15:26] sold um despite all of that effort now [15:30] having said that um you compare her to [15:34] you know Jean Luke Melon I think most [15:37] Jews would say you know if it really [15:38] comes to that we would prefer her Jean [15:41] Luke Melon has created [15:43] his entire policy uh on anti-ionism. [15:47] Loads of members of parliament who are [15:50] obsessively obsessively anti anti-ionist [15:53] who have you know said that October 7th [15:55] was a form of resistance. Um so um you [15:59] know if Jews really had the choice uh if [16:02] if it really comes down to that yeah I I [16:05] think most would probably either leave [16:07] or probably vote for her or not vote at [16:10] all. Uh but it's definitely not a very [16:12] comfortable position. I think that's the [16:13] main issue. [16:14] >> But are are let me ask you this [16:17] question. In this current crisis, I [16:18] mean, I saw reports that the the Ohale [16:20] Yakov synagogue was vandalized. I'm [16:23] seeing other images on social media of [16:25] Jewish Jewish places, Jews being [16:27] targeted, but the Jewish Community [16:29] Protection Service is saying that so far [16:32] there's no evidence of systematic [16:36] targeting of Jewish institutions or [16:38] businesses. I don't know if that's [16:39] accurate. So to what extent on on this [16:42] point here are Jews being caught in the [16:43] crossfire or is anti-semitism telling us [16:45] something important about this about the [16:48] underlying crisis? [16:49] >> No, listen I think yes the SPCJ the [16:52] Jewish protection service is right for [16:54] now there are no no specific Jewish [16:56] targets. Uh but it doesn't really [16:59] matter. Uh first of all you have all [17:01] sorts of anti-ionist tags all over [17:03] Paris. Uh you know death to the Zionist, [17:06] death to Zionist, these kind of things. [17:09] And also I think more importantly it's [17:11] what you had said earlier on Dan is um [17:15] the fact that you know we have said for [17:17] years that anti-semitism was always the [17:21] first sort of warning sign of a society [17:23] falling apart. Well you know what guess [17:25] what that's where we are. Um, so I think [17:27] to some extent many Jews feel that what [17:30] they have been experiencing for the past [17:32] two decades, the rest of the French [17:34] population uh is now experiencing as [17:37] well. [17:38] >> Michael, I want to I want to sort of [17:41] raise the the the zoom the lens here, [17:43] zoom out a bit. How did Europe get [17:45] itself into this economic predicament? [17:47] It built an extraordinary welfare state. [17:49] True, but its population is aging. Its [17:52] economies are barely growing or probably [17:55] not growing at all. and its debts keep [17:57] mounting. Um, as I said earlier, it [18:00] imports, you know, energy. I mean, the [18:03] the the whole place starts to feel at [18:06] some point like a museum. Sorry. Sorry, [18:08] Simone. Uh, where there's not like new [18:10] and exciting and innovative things [18:13] happening in any just about any aspect [18:15] of its economy. So, was the European [18:17] social model always unsustainable or is [18:20] something changing? You know, I lived in [18:22] Sweden where the place that people like [18:24] Bernie Sanders always point to and [18:26] Sweden became more to use the porative [18:30] that people use neoliberal over time. I [18:33] mean, the experiments in social [18:34] democracy in the 1970s almost destroyed [18:37] the country and then you'd have these [18:38] little like an interregnum of quote [18:40] unquote conservative rule, but just sort [18:42] of more free market stuff. And you know, [18:44] now Sweden has the the most billionaires [18:46] per capita in Europe. I mean Sweden has [18:49] a high tax country that has a very [18:51] dynamic uh very sort of capitalist [18:54] economy. France is not that obviously. I [18:56] mean France hasn't had a balanced budget [18:58] since 1973 I think was last time. [19:02] >> I mean that's astonishing. I mean you [19:04] know that the debt is [19:07] 120% of GDP. [19:09] >> Is it 120% of GDP? I it's like it's [19:13] astonishing. Um like these numbers are [19:15] are are really shocking. I have a friend [19:18] who was a journalist in France for many [19:20] years now lives in the United States. [19:21] We've we've allowed her to escape here [19:24] and she worked at Liberion and she said, [19:27] you know, that we couldn't fire people. [19:29] There were people that came into the [19:31] office who didn't work for years and you [19:34] just couldn't get rid of them. It's not [19:36] a dynamic. It's a sclerotic economy. And [19:39] so when you hear people, this is the [19:41] first thing to for American listeners to [19:44] kind of comprehend is that if you look [19:46] online, there's going to be a lot of [19:47] conversation about austerity in [19:50] neoliberalism and this is a revolt [19:52] against that. Well, I don't know where [19:54] the money goes in France to create [19:56] leaking roofs in in schools in the Bos, [19:59] but there's no lack of I mean the number [20:03] of people that are public employees in [20:05] France. Compare that. Look at the latest [20:07] numbers. They change often, but it's [20:09] astonishingly high versus a country like [20:12] America and even a country like Sweden. [20:14] I mean, and that's even if you cut out [20:15] the health services and things like [20:17] that, which kind of inflate those [20:18] numbers. But yeah, I mean, this is not a [20:21] an issue of money in the state coffers. [20:25] This is something very, very different. [20:27] How you fix that, I think, is funny. I'm [20:29] going to do the thing that the DSA [20:31] people do unknowingly here is they say [20:34] it's the Swedish model. If France was [20:36] more like Sweden, we would have a very [20:38] very uh different and more dynamic [20:41] economy. That is the problem. So if you [20:43] think you can throw money at this [20:44] problem, particularly when it comes to [20:47] immigration and things um I mean look [20:49] you look at the the um national rally uh [20:53] national rally now Marine Le Pen's party [20:56] >> Marine Le Pen's party has always been [20:58] like so many populist parties of the [21:01] right in Europe extremely socialist in [21:03] their economics. There's certain changes [21:05] in that in recent times, particularly [21:07] when it comes to funding services for [21:10] for immigrants. Um, but it is it's [21:12] always been a, you know, a socialist [21:14] party for sort of native French people, [21:16] but not so much for non-native French [21:18] people. But they you don't have a lot of [21:20] choices if those are your two choices in [21:22] a runoff election between LFI, the the [21:25] Melanch far-left party in National [21:28] Rally, the Le Pen Party. You have two [21:29] people that essentially have socialist [21:31] economics as their backbone. So I don't [21:33] see either of those parties being the [21:36] solution. There is a worry that I have [21:38] that there's a common enemy issue is [21:41] that our common common enemy now is [21:44] Islamism is immigration. The way that a [21:47] lot of these people have started seeing [21:48] that one person who told me this in [21:50] particular in Sweden is that you know [21:52] Jews are Swedish, Jews are European, [21:54] they integrate. Our problem is the lack [21:56] of integration from these people. So you [21:59] are now um our allies. That does worry [22:02] me. [22:03] >> Wait, why does that worry you? [22:05] >> Well, it worries me because I I wonder [22:07] how honest they're being about these [22:08] things. I've never had a moment in my [22:10] life where I said, I think I should [22:11] speak at an SS funeral. [22:13] >> I think I should send messages that [22:16] denounce Jews as, you know, horned [22:18] usurers. I don't that's never been a [22:21] part of me. Let me let me ask you a [22:22] question practically then, Michael, [22:24] because I I was I I on my last trip to [22:26] France, I was meeting with um with an [22:28] official in the in the US embassy in [22:30] Paris. And he made the point because I [22:32] was curious about what was happening [22:33] with the right in France. And this was [22:35] before this crisis erupted. And he said, [22:37] "You need to understand on the one hand [22:39] they're very pro-Israel if you you know [22:42] the this conservative movement, this [22:44] right-wing movement. Um so it is [22:46] different. On the other hand, for [22:48] instance, the stuff you don't hear much [22:49] about is some of them are completely [22:51] against they want to outlaw the kashroot [22:54] kosher, you know, the the whole kosher [22:56] food industry in in France or so so [22:59] there's aspects of Jewish life where [23:01] they are taking the assimilation agenda [23:04] perhaps to extremes. And I think is is [23:06] that what you're referring to in terms [23:07] of how it could manifest itself? I'm [23:08] using the kasher as you know the as a as [23:11] one specific example, but one could [23:12] start to imagine how much do Jews [23:15] actually fit in? Should they fit in more [23:16] and where does that go? [23:18] >> I mean, it's interesting. I think that [23:20] the idea, the one that worries me is I [23:23] suppos I suppose the parallel would be [23:25] the Iranian revolution, right? In 1979, [23:28] the Ayatollah returns from Paris. By the [23:30] way, and makes uh common cause with the [23:33] TUDA party, the communist party, and [23:36] they gain control, and then everyone in [23:37] the Tuda party is arrested. Right? I [23:40] don't think that there's a solution uh [23:43] that would please many people in some of [23:45] these farright parties that worry me uh [23:47] that they can solve a immigration [23:50] solution or people remigration which is [23:52] a word you hear a lot um in Germany, [23:55] Italy, Sweden in particular uh that [23:57] that's not that's not a thing that's [23:58] going to be like if that was solved [24:00] would they then come for the Jews? I [24:01] don't think that is something that's [24:03] going to easily be solved. But yeah, I [24:06] just look it is also worth pointing out [24:09] that Marine Le Pen did have a very [24:11] famous break with her father and has [24:14] done the work as as we say on the [24:17] American left um to kind of make Jews [24:21] for feel more comfortable in the party. [24:23] It's also an electoral opportunity [24:25] because you know the LFI party is doing [24:28] the exact opposite, right? they are [24:31] really really scaring up support amongst [24:34] you know disaffected migrants and people [24:36] who are absolute extremists who do as [24:39] human said call October 7th an act of [24:42] resistance. I just it's a general worry [24:44] that I think one should have in Europe. [24:46] I mean I one final thing is that one of [24:48] my favorite historians of of modern [24:51] Europe is the great George Mossi who who [24:53] died a few years ago. But George Mossi [24:56] was said famously one time if you had [24:58] said to me in 1933 that there's going to [25:01] be a contagion that overwhelms Europe [25:04] and anti-semitism will get to a point [25:06] where it's industrialized slaughter my [25:08] response would be godamn the French. you [25:11] know that I mean this is something that [25:13] goes very deep. I mean from Drifus and [25:15] and even before is you know I mean this [25:18] is not something we can sleep on because [25:20] it has has such a long tale in European [25:23] history and I'm just extra cautious [25:25] about it. And Michael how much is there [25:27] overlaid onto this this this sort of [25:29] this notion of the end I think it's [25:31] overstated but but the quote the [25:33] characterization of the end of American [25:35] military protection for Europe while [25:38] Europe has been building these welfare [25:39] states. Is is there a sense that that [25:41] bargain is coming to an end? That Europe [25:43] now needs to spend substantially more in [25:45] defense just as its economic model has [25:48] been coming under enormous pressure. I [25:50] mean, one of the problems I have with so [25:52] many populist parties in Europe is that [25:54] they're so unbearably pro-Russian [25:57] in including, you know, FPO and and [26:01] Austria and and National Rally in [26:03] France, etc. Um, you know, look, it's [26:05] it's it's a huge change. I mean, when I [26:06] was in Sweden, you wouldn't there would [26:09] is no idea that there would ever be a [26:12] conversation about Sweden joining NATO. [26:14] Absolutely laughable. That was something [26:16] that was solved many, many years ago. [26:18] And now you see that obviously happened [26:20] in Sweden. There's a very very different [26:23] attitude in so many countries. But the [26:25] thing that you you do notice across [26:27] countries in Western Europe where the [26:29] populist or the quote unquote far right, [26:31] I think that's a label that applies, you [26:34] know, some places, not in others. Could [26:37] you find a country where the first place [26:39] party in opinion polls or the second [26:41] place party was not a populist party? I [26:44] couldn't find one [26:46] >> across the board. Uh well, you know, [26:48] Portugal that but it's amazing in [26:50] Portugal um you know which had a weird [26:53] form of fascism in the 20th century in [26:55] the Salazar government but if you look [26:57] across the landscape I mean I was in [27:01] Switzerland um the people's party of [27:04] Switzerland I think it was 10 points [27:06] above the second place for the social [27:08] democratic party this was across the [27:10] board then when I moved to to Europe you [27:13] know 20 odd years ago that every number [27:16] one party was some form of a social [27:18] democratic party some offshoot of like [27:20] the espeday in Germany some version of [27:22] that and it is across the board across [27:26] the board it is right-wing parties [27:28] populist parties and the the thing that [27:31] actually unites them because if you look [27:33] at Norway or something the progress [27:34] party in Norway they're very capitalist [27:36] party unlike say le Penn's party but the [27:39] one thing that unites them is a [27:41] skepticism of immigration the end of [27:43] immigration and every party is something [27:45] that is driving the the electoral wins [27:49] in every single country. I mean, what is [27:53] the most stable government Italy has had [27:55] in how many years? Georgia Maloney, [27:58] right? And and also the same thing is [28:00] true as I was saying before. What did [28:01] Georgie Maloney do when she was a young [28:03] person? She was a little sympathetic to [28:04] Mussolini party, but people get over it. [28:08] So, you know, I'm I'm I maybe I should [28:11] be less cautious. [28:16] I'm Deborah Parardes, the host of Ark [28:18] News Daily. What's happening in Israel [28:20] and the Jewish world right now matters, [28:23] but it can be hard to keep up, let alone [28:25] make sense of it all. And that's why we [28:27] started Ark News Daily. Every weekday [28:30] morning, I walk you through the most [28:32] important news, give you the context you [28:34] need, and let you know what to look out [28:36] for next. I don't try to convince you of [28:39] anything, and I don't want to waste your [28:41] time. 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If you're able to [29:35] consider becoming a member, you can sign [29:37] up for ARK Plus at arkdia.org [29:40] or follow the link in our show notes. [29:46] Simone, I want to talk a little bit [29:47] about what what the conversation within [29:50] the Jewish community [29:52] uh is is going on right now. So, so the [29:56] Jewish community in France is the [29:58] largest Jewish community in Europe. It's [30:00] the third largest Jewish community in [30:02] the world. or something. You can give me [30:03] the precise numbers, but somewhere [30:04] between 400 and 450,000 [30:08] Jews in France. I was in Israel the week [30:12] before last before this this crisis got, [30:15] you know, you know, kind of into into [30:17] high gear. And even then, I was struck [30:19] by how many Israelis were telling me how [30:21] thrilled they were with the number of [30:23] French Jews who are now making aliyah, [30:25] who are now moving to Israel. And they [30:27] were showing me the numbers. And it [30:29] wasn't just the quantity, it was the [30:30] quality, which is to say uh some of the [30:33] most talented citizens of France uh in a [30:37] range of you know different knowledge [30:38] industries uh and professional [30:40] industries, professional services were [30:42] were moving their lives and their [30:43] careers and their wealth to Israel. So [30:47] what's what's the conversation within [30:49] the Jewish community? Are people leaving [30:51] the way many Israelis are seeing Jews [30:54] from France leaving? at least there's, [30:55] you know, they're they're [30:57] expecting a large influx even larger [30:59] than already occurred. Uh or people [31:02] staying put and saying we'll ride this [31:04] out. [31:05] >> Um I don't think I have been to a [31:07] Jewish, you know, event, bar mitzvah, [31:11] wedding, a dinner where I have not [31:15] encountered a conversation about, you [31:17] know, where should we go? Uh it's a [31:19] conversation at every single Jewish [31:21] family. um is do we still have a future [31:25] here? Um most people I think have [31:27] answered that question already. Uh but [31:30] the question is where should they go? Um [31:33] that is very very present. Uh now that [31:36] has two consequences. The first [31:38] consequence is the one that you pointed [31:40] towards meaning that people are leaving. [31:41] They're going to Israel. Um they're [31:43] going elsewhere. They're going trying to [31:46] go to the US. It used to be the UK [31:48] that's over now. Um, Canada used to be [31:51] also the case. That's over as well. You [31:53] know, the world's getting smaller. Um, [31:56] as the globalization of of anti-semitism [31:58] and the interif is happening. Um but [32:01] yeah no there are there are people even [32:03] I I at this stage I don't expect you [32:05] know a big exodus as uh you know as we [32:08] have promised over the years and you [32:10] know the biggest numbers just so you [32:11] understand the biggest numbers of people [32:13] leaving from France to Israel was I [32:16] think at the height was about 2016 where [32:19] uh 8,000 Jews uh left to to Israel which [32:22] of course is big but uh you know and [32:25] thus you don't also count people who are [32:26] coming back people who are in between uh [32:28] but I think the more important point is [32:31] uh that people are leaving in their [32:32] minds um and that I think has been [32:34] happening increasingly um over the years [32:37] is sort of [32:38] >> what does that mean? [32:39] >> To what extent are you actually mentally [32:42] still a citizen of that country? To what [32:45] extent do you experience the same [32:48] reality than the rest of the population [32:50] is experiencing? Uh to what extent you [32:53] know do you have the same questions that [32:55] the rest of the population is has? you [32:57] know, you are a Jew, you for example, [32:59] you live in a difficult neighborhood and [33:01] there are many Jews who do live in in [33:03] difficult neighborhoods in the Bonu [33:05] somewhere. Um, and you know, your [33:07] everyday decision is a difficult one. [33:09] Uh, will you where will you put your [33:12] kids in school? In public school? Well, [33:13] in public school, they can get harassed [33:16] every single day. If they go to private [33:18] Jewish school, well, you remember 2012 [33:20] to lose, um, where kids were killed by a [33:24] terrorist called Muhammad Mha. Um, so [33:27] there's definitely security issue. You [33:29] know, you have police in front of every [33:31] Jewish school, of course, in every in [33:32] front of every synagogue, in front of [33:34] every Jewish institution. Do you put [33:37] your messa on the door? Um, or, you [33:39] know, is there a danger that you could [33:41] be identified as being Jewish? Will you [33:43] have your name on uh your Uber or your [33:46] delivery um app? So, that's just a very [33:50] very different reality that most Jews in [33:52] France are experiencing. That I think is [33:55] the is the main issue is to what extent [33:57] you know people in France who are Jewish [34:00] still consider themselves to be part of [34:03] society and and protected uh by by the [34:06] state for the past years and in [34:10] particular of course since October 7th [34:12] um the general feeling was one of uh [34:14] disconnect and solitude. [34:17] >> Michael I want to ask you about one one [34:19] name we've barely mentioned I don't [34:21] think his name has even come up in this [34:22] conversation. Emen Mcron the the [34:25] president of France who was supposed to [34:27] be this like night and shining armor [34:29] when he you know the sensible moderate [34:31] centrist and at least on paper supposed [34:34] to have been the perfect candidate to [34:36] lead this country through a crisis like [34:39] this and yet he seems completely [34:42] paralyzed. So what what happened to [34:45] meron like what what assume our [34:48] listeners here don't know that much [34:49] about him. Um, so, so what should they [34:53] know about him given what he's governing [34:55] over right now and seeming to to be [34:58] completely incapable of managing? One [35:00] thing they should know is that I went [35:02] back and checked these numbers. Uh, [35:05] Mcron's disapproval rating has been [35:08] hovering between 75 and 80% for 3 years. [35:12] >> Wow. I mean, this is not somebody who's [35:14] terribly popular, and we're talking [35:16] about a second round runoff between two [35:19] extreme parties. Why? Because the kind [35:23] of, you know, Republican moderate stuff [35:26] has has done nothing. Everything is sort [35:27] of symbol politics, what has changed in [35:30] spending, what has changed in, you know, [35:32] internal governance of France? nothing [35:35] that anyone can really point to which is [35:37] why I think Macron would have a very [35:38] hard time if he wasn't term limited of [35:40] running another election at the moment [35:44] you know Simone can speak to what the [35:45] the actual tenor is in the amongst [35:49] people who are voting in France but I [35:52] don't it's an amazing thing to sustain [35:54] an unpopularity for as long as Mron has [35:58] by just trying to be this leveling wind [36:01] of somebody who doesn't do very much at [36:04] all on either side and isn't [36:05] particularly ideological. [36:06] >> Simone, your take on Meccron. [36:09] >> First of all, I I I actually think um [36:10] your description of Macron is perfect. I [36:13] don't think he actually believes in [36:15] anything. You know, his whole this whole [36:17] um idea of of [36:21] uh at the same time at the same time [36:23] being the left, at the same time being [36:24] the right uh you know, all of that works [36:26] very well when we all live in a very [36:29] prosperous country and when everything [36:30] is rosy and when everything is shiny. [36:32] that might all work. But at a time when [36:35] you know things are falling apart, uh [36:37] when the continent is at war, when the [36:40] economy is in shambles, uh when there's [36:43] a sense of cultural insecurity, and I [36:45] think that's one of the reasons as well [36:47] where we have the far right um gaining [36:49] so much ground um in France and [36:51] elsewhere in Europe, well then you have [36:53] a serious problem. If you don't have [36:54] anyone, if you don't have a president [36:56] who has a very clear backbone, a very [36:58] clear guideline of where he wants to go, [37:00] you have a very very very serious [37:01] problem. And I think that is the pro [37:03] problem we are currently facing. Uh by [37:05] the way, one of the reasons why uh you [37:07] know the the the people on the center or [37:10] center left center right have such a [37:12] hard time that is the case of Gabriel [37:14] Tal and Edoir Philip who are both [37:17] candidates uh to become president having [37:20] such a hard time because they are being [37:22] seen as inheriting uh Macron's uh [37:26] legacy. uh and nobody these days wants [37:29] to be associated uh with Makon's legacy [37:32] if they want to become uh the next [37:35] president. [37:36] >> Simone, is there anything Europe, [37:39] France, and I guess Europe more broadly [37:42] can do to reform itself, the core [37:45] problems, the core the the core sources [37:48] of this crisis, at least to the extent [37:50] that they are, at least some of them are [37:52] economic and not just cultural. If you [37:54] were advising [37:55] the government of France or the [37:57] government of any of these governments [37:58] in Europe that will be dealing with this [38:00] or have had to deal with a version of [38:01] this, what would you advise them to do? [38:04] >> Listen, there are many things that could [38:06] be done. I think the problem is that [38:07] that Europe has a tendency to have to [38:09] sort of re hit rock bottom uh [38:12] unfortunately before things better. I [38:14] mean, there is a sort of state of denial [38:16] that is pretty unbelievable. I mean uh [38:18] even on on the war with Russia and and [38:21] Ukraine. I mean you know we spent since [38:24] October 7th hours, weeks, months and [38:28] years talking about the Israeli [38:30] Palestinian issue. I mean we have war in [38:33] our continent. I have not seen any [38:34] Ukrainian flags in these demonstrations. [38:37] Um so the pro first problem I think is a [38:40] problem of of of denial. Now if I was to [38:43] um uh advise uh any European leader um I [38:48] think one of the key issues is the issue [38:51] of cultural insecurity and everything [38:54] that comes with it meaning the issue of [38:57] immigration [38:58] uh the issue of integration uh and the [39:01] issue of identity uh and therefore [39:05] obviously also the issue of [39:06] anti-semitism and Islamism that goes [39:08] with it. There has been a tendency I [39:11] think amongst moderate uh governing [39:14] parties to avoid some of those very [39:17] difficult issues and therefore leaving [39:19] the ground uh to uh the far right. One [39:23] of the reasons why we have the far right [39:25] is because we have not dealt with the [39:27] issue. And you look at actually an [39:28] interesting country which is Denmark um [39:31] your neighboring country. Denmark has [39:34] had for for a very long time um um had a [39:39] a a social democratic uh uh leadership [39:42] uh that has not been afraid to deal with [39:45] some of the more difficult issue that [39:46] has dealt with the issue of immigration, [39:49] integration, identity, Islamism uh in [39:51] particular since the attacks in in in [39:54] Copenhagen and the far right had been [39:57] contained for a long time much more than [39:59] any other European capital. Uh that's [40:01] not the case of Germany. That's not the [40:03] case of Austria. That's not the case of [40:05] of of France where those governing [40:08] parties have had a very very hard time [40:11] addressing those very serious issues. [40:13] And then of course is the issue of of [40:14] the economy. I mean we absolutely have [40:17] to take the you know as as Michael said [40:20] the the Swedish model. There is just a [40:22] very clear evidence that this socialist [40:25] or social democratic model that has [40:27] worked for decades is coming to an end. [40:30] So we will have to be able to think [40:32] about a new way of of uh you know [40:35] opening up our our economies uh creating [40:38] more innovation. Um that that that [40:41] unfortunately [40:43] um I believe French people and many [40:46] European people are not yet ready to [40:49] address but it needs to be done if if if [40:53] the economies can should once again be [40:56] opened up. France might be a museum, but [40:58] it's a museum I like to go to and I want [41:00] to see it remain that. It is a very hard [41:03] thing for people to say and it's a it's [41:05] an argument that nobody wants to have [41:07] because sort of like you know wokeness [41:10] there is a thing there's a dam that [41:11] breaks because everyone said understands [41:14] the same thing right they would send you [41:15] these emails when you would do a podcast [41:18] about say hey I agree with you and when [41:19] the dam breaks people can talk about it [41:21] publicly that's kind of the end of woke [41:23] one as we call it in America now that [41:25] happened in Europe too having these [41:27] conversations about culture what is that [41:29] about what is that conversation The [41:32] complexion of the physical complexion of [41:34] the people coming in is changing. The [41:36] culture is changing and we don't like [41:38] it. It's a left-wing cause in America. [41:40] If you talk about that in Europe for [41:42] years, you had to be confined to the far [41:44] right. You were an extremist. You were a [41:46] racist who didn't want immigration and [41:48] you had this kind of white European [41:51] nationalism coursing through your veins. [41:53] It is now acceptable to say we like the [41:56] culture of our country. Italy is a great [41:57] example of this. We don't want it to [42:00] disappear. Um it's really interesting [42:02] because there was a a documentary that [42:04] was being that was made maybe a decade [42:06] ago uh called leotro the French are the [42:09] others and the there was really [42:10] interesting experiment because there [42:12] were two um people going into the bonu [42:15] into the neighborhoods where you know [42:16] you would have uh a classroom of uh [42:20] majority of young uh kids from immigrant [42:23] background but they were all French. uh [42:25] and the first question they would ask [42:27] them was uh who in this classroom is [42:30] French and no one would raise their [42:33] hand. No one. Meaning that you had an [42:36] entire classroom of young kids who were [42:38] born in France, who were raised in [42:39] France, who would go to French schools, [42:41] uh who were French citizens and who did [42:43] not feel French. And this is is a major [42:47] major problem. And that's one of the [42:49] reasons why you see these you know [42:51] Algerian flags why you see you know for [42:54] every why you have issues every single [42:56] day you every single time you have a [42:59] football match a soccer match uh between [43:03] uh you know Algeria and any other other [43:06] camp because these young kids uh do not [43:09] feel French and there you have a real [43:11] problem and and and again there the the [43:14] politicians in the center right and left [43:20] do not want to address that issue. But [43:22] if you cannot solve that issue, how do [43:25] you actually create a nation? [43:27] >> All right, I have closing question for [43:29] for both of you which is basically are [43:32] we going to be talking about this [43:34] crisis in a month or a week or pick your [43:37] pick your time horizon. As we've you [43:40] know alluded to Paris and France has a [43:43] long history of violent uprisings. You [43:45] don't have to just go to, you know, 178 [43:47] 1789 and the storming of the Bastile. [43:50] You can look at, you know, the Paris [43:51] Commune of 1871. Michael, you mentioned [43:53] the the 1968 protests that literally, [43:57] you know, paraly started a student [43:58] protest, but then paralyzed the entire [44:00] country. But it just a friend of mine [44:02] from France recently said, every few [44:04] years in France, you have some kind of [44:06] violent uprising. Like this is just this [44:08] this is the way we roll and we move on. [44:11] Are we just experiencing another one of [44:12] those? every few years there's some [44:14] crazy violent uprising in France or is [44:17] this different and we actually will be [44:19] talking about this in a week or a month [44:21] or you know the medium term. [44:24] >> I I would say that you know slightly [44:26] disagree in one thing is that the French [44:28] are you know it's it's the cliche that [44:31] French people love to protest. This [44:32] level of violence is not normal. I mean [44:35] there's been violent protests in the [44:36] past but this is a next level of of [44:40] violence and we can't uh look at even [44:43] recent French history and say this is [44:46] normal right I mean the 1968 uprisings [44:49] are you know both the unions and the [44:51] students and on the factory floor they [44:53] weren't stealing sneakers as such but um [44:56] you know I I think that we're going to [44:58] see this across Europe because it is you [45:01] know particularly amongst um young [45:04] immigrants. We're talking about the [45:06] school protests in France and how it [45:08] started. This stuff has expanded so [45:10] rapidly in Europe across so many [45:12] European countries that I don't think if [45:15] you you could isolate it to France, but [45:17] it's going to keep going and you know it [45:20] won't happen in certain places like [45:22] Poland. I wonder why not. There's not an [45:25] enormous sort of disaffected immigrant [45:27] population in Poland. And that's a se [45:29] and this is not to make the case against [45:31] immigration. I am American. I love [45:33] immigration, but I love the way we deal [45:35] with immigration. I think Europe Europe [45:37] has made a number of very very obvious [45:39] mistakes in in integration and just [45:42] general immigration policy. So look, I [45:45] think this is a old story in a lot of [45:48] ways, but it's going to be a current [45:50] story and it's going to keep going. The [45:52] question I have is it will it topple [45:54] governments? Will it actually have some [45:57] serious effect rather than the insurance [46:00] companies coming in and paying to to put [46:02] in new windows? [46:03] >> Simone, last word here. Does this is [46:06] this fleeting? [46:07] >> I agree. And I think the wider question [46:08] is that this sort of is a perfect storm. [46:11] It's not just about the violence. Um it [46:13] is a perfect storm. Again, um you know, [46:16] we've named it all. the economic [46:17] situation uh the the desend the the [46:21] extreme polarization uh the problem of [46:24] immigration and Islamism uh the problem [46:27] of the war in our continent and by the [46:29] way one thing we haven't ma me mentioned [46:31] is the fact that you know we are the [46:33] soft underbelly of the west um we we are [46:36] being targeted by outside actors whether [46:39] it's Russia China uh Qatar Turkey um you [46:43] know everybody is having a feast um on [46:45] our behalf China as well obviously. Um [46:48] so so I think there there are some we [46:51] are um unfortunately I believe um at a [46:55] stage where this is sort of a perfect [46:57] storm. Uh again I have no idea what the [47:00] consequences will be politically. Uh but [47:03] I doubt um that you know tomorrow we'll [47:06] wake up and we'll everything is just [47:07] going to be fine. All right, on that [47:10] upbeat note, uh, we [47:13] >> No, the one maybe, but you know what? [47:15] The one thing No, no, it's not an upbeat [47:17] no note at all, but I think what what I [47:20] what I would say is that I would really [47:22] want to have Americans look at what's [47:25] happening in in Europe because, you [47:27] know, um there is a tendency for things [47:29] to become become globalized uh and not [47:32] stay in put in in one in one place. I [47:35] used to say this about anti-semitism [47:37] about you know more than a decade ago. [47:39] Um unfortunately um I was right. Uh so I [47:42] would really urge Americans to very very [47:45] closely look at what uh what is [47:47] happening in Europe and not believe that [47:49] this is just going to stay here. [47:50] >> I tried to end on I thought you were [47:53] going to come back Simone with something [47:54] positive. [47:55] >> There's nothing I can do. I must depress [47:58] I live in Europe. I'm a Jew too much. [48:01] >> All right Michael and Simone thank you [48:02] for this. Simone, stay stay safe and uh [48:05] and look forward to having you both back [48:06] on. [48:07] >> Thank you very much. [48:08] >> Thanks. Appreciate it. [48:19] >> How people come to understand Israel and [48:21] Jewish life right now depends on who is [48:23] telling our story today. That work [48:26] requires more care and integrity than [48:28] ever before. And that doesn't come [48:30] cheap. Our ARK Plus members are the ones [48:34] who fund it. They support our mission [48:36] and get early access to our second [48:38] weekly episode, adfree listening, and [48:41] our weekly membersonly ask me anything [48:43] episode. Join ARK Plus at arkdia.org. [48:48] And to our members, thank you. 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