Transcript [00:05] Hello and welcome to Hadasa Magazine [00:08] presents a podcast for those who love [00:10] Hadasa magazine and want more and for [00:12] those who have never heard of the [00:14] magazine and are looking for stimulating [00:16] conversations with acclaimed Jewish [00:19] authors, thinkers, celebrities, and [00:21] culinary stars. I'm your host, Lisa [00:24] Hosting, the executive editor of Hadasa [00:27] Magazine. I'm honored to be in [00:29] conversation today with Dara Horn, whose [00:32] work continues to impact our thinking [00:34] about the times we are living in. Her [00:36] new book, The Final Solution to the [00:38] Jewish Question: A Love Story for the [00:40] Living, is a wide-ranging manifesto that [00:43] explores how we got to this place where [00:46] anti-semitism is so rampant and what [00:48] might be done to begin to alter its [00:50] course. In addition to her latest work, [00:53] Darra is the award-winning author of [00:55] seven other books, including five novels [00:58] and the non-fiction work she is best [01:00] known for, People Love Dead Jews: [01:02] Reports from a Haunted Present. [01:05] Named one of Granta Magazine's best [01:07] young American novelists. She is the [01:10] recipient of three National Jewish Book [01:12] Awards, among other honors. Her books [01:15] have been selected as New York Times [01:17] notable books, book lists 25 best books [01:20] of the decade, and San Francisco [01:22] Chronicles best books of the year. And [01:25] they've been translated into 13 [01:27] languages. Her non-fiction work has [01:30] appeared in the New York Times, the Wall [01:32] Street Journal, the Washington Post, the [01:34] Atlantic, Smithsonian, Tablet, the [01:38] Jewish Review of Books, and Hadassa [01:40] Magazine among many other places. [01:43] She is also the creator of the history [01:45] podcast Adventures with Dead Jews. She [01:48] has taught Jewish literature at Harvard, [01:52] Sarah Lawrence College, and yeshiva [01:54] University. And she lives in New Jersey [01:56] with her husband and four children. [02:00] Darra, [02:01] welcome. It's such a pleasure to have [02:03] you back at Hadasa Magazine Presents, [02:06] and you are our inaugural guest at this [02:08] new recording studio at Hadasa [02:10] headquarters in Manhattan. So really a [02:13] special welcome. [02:14] >> Thank you. And it's a Shahani moment. [02:16] >> It is a Shehani moment. Should we say [02:18] it? [02:20] [laughter] [02:25] Thank you. [gasps] [02:27] >> And you also have a special place in [02:30] your heart for Hadasa magazine because [02:32] you were first published in Hadasa [02:34] magazine when you were just a child. Can [02:37] you tell us a little bit about that? [02:38] >> Yes, this is actually true. Um the first [02:42] article I ever published in my life was [02:44] in Hadasa magazine. I was in 8th grade. [02:47] Um and I wrote a piece for Hadasa about [02:50] um my family had taken a trip to Spain. [02:53] This was in 1992. So now you know how [02:55] old I am. Um I was, you know, 14 years [02:58] old in 8th grade. And the in 1992, this [03:00] was 500 years after the expulsion of the [03:02] Jews from Spain. And it the piece was [03:04] about exploring these Jewish historical [03:06] sites in Spain, which is funny because, [03:08] you know, now this is so much of what I [03:09] think about is, you know, the way that [03:11] uh Jewish history and memory are used. [03:13] Um the subtitle of that piece was the [03:16] Jews in Spain are mainly on the plane [03:17] back to New York airport. Um that was a [03:20] piece I wrote, yeah, in 8th grade. And [03:22] it was, you know, this is tribute to um [03:25] Hadasa's um ability to be open to new [03:29] talent, honestly, because I had no [03:30] connection with the magazine. Um I had [03:32] no connection with the organization. Um [03:34] I always kept these travel journals um [03:37] when my family would travel and I had [03:39] shared my travel journal of our trip [03:41] with my mother and my mother said, "Oh, [03:43] you should send this into Hadasa [03:44] magazine just because she was a fan of [03:46] the magazine." Um and was quite we all [03:49] were quite astounded to get a phone call [03:51] from uh the editor-inchief Ellen Tay a [03:54] couple weeks later asking if he could [03:56] publish this. And it was it was very [03:57] very strange. It truly was, you know, [03:59] slush pile. Um and then I wrote another [04:02] piece for Hadasa magazine uh a year [04:04] later um when I was in ninth grade. Um I [04:07] was 15 and I was on it was about March [04:09] of the Living. Um so this is also very [04:11] much in uh what became my um my work as [04:14] an adult writer. Um and that piece [04:17] actually was nominated for a national [04:19] magazine award. That was the first time [04:21] that an uh that a Jewish publication was [04:23] nominated for that award. That's a you [04:25] know the the top award in the magazine [04:27] industry. Um, I was the youngest person [04:29] ever nominated in the history of the [04:31] award. So that was the beginning of my [04:33] publishing career and I have all full [04:35] credit to Hadasa magazine picking me out [04:37] of the slush pile. [04:38] >> That is so amazing. It's an amazing [04:41] story and it's also an amazing story [04:42] because I didn't realize that your [04:45] earlier thoughts and writing were [04:46] focused on these issues that you came [04:48] back to because I know you went into [04:49] literature for many years and I thought [04:51] you kind of just came to this. So, we [04:54] 100% take credit for launching your [04:57] career and it's something that we're [04:58] very proud of and we're so happy that [05:00] you're here. [05:01] >> So, this new book of yours, The Final [05:03] Solution to the Jewish question, a love [05:05] story for the living, [05:08] a provocative title, right? I mean, [05:10] there's so much read. [05:11] >> It is. A beach read for sure. It's a [05:13] good thing it's not summer anymore. [05:15] >> It it there's so much in there. It's a [05:18] must-read for anybody who cares about [05:20] these issues spanning from ancient [05:23] Jewish history to the definition of [05:25] Jewish peoplehood, which we will get to [05:26] because you really come up with a good [05:28] one that I think everybody's quoting [05:29] now, to the threats from AI. There's so [05:32] much in there. But you once wrote, or [05:35] actually I think you said in a recent [05:37] interview that your goal is to quote [05:41] make people uncomfortable and to jolt [05:43] them out of the assumptions that they [05:45] make. So, first I want to know I'm [05:47] assuming that the title idea was yours. [05:49] Yes. [05:50] >> And I want to know whether the [05:51] publishers gave you any push back and [05:53] more importantly, who is it that you're [05:55] trying to make uncomfortable? [05:57] >> Um, this book is published by Simon and [05:59] Schustster and my editor there actually [06:02] um completely understood why this was an [06:05] essential uh this was the right title [06:07] for this book. Um she went to bat for me [06:10] with the rest of the company. um and you [06:13] know really was uh dealing with a lot of [06:15] you know nerves from the sales staff and [06:18] people like that who were like you know [06:19] how am I going to present this to you [06:21] know my account at Barnes & Noble. Um [06:24] and you know to her credit she really um [06:26] understood how important this is and [06:29] I in terms of who I want to make [06:31] uncomfortable I mean the answer is [06:32] everyone. The answer is everyone. Um, I [06:36] think that part of it, you know, [06:37] obviously this is, um, obviously this is [06:39] a, you know, sort of a a phrase that [06:42] immediately resonates with the Jewish [06:44] audience. Um, and yes, there have been [06:47] Jewish readers who have been upset about [06:49] this. And but it's also, you know, [06:52] resonant with a larger audience. You [06:55] know, I think that there's been an [06:57] absolute misunderstanding of the [07:00] dumpster fire that American Jews have [07:01] been living in for the last three years. [07:04] And that misunderstanding is with the [07:07] broader public and it is also within the [07:09] Jewish community as well. And I am [07:12] upending a lot of the assumptions that [07:14] people in the Jewish community and [07:16] beyond have been making about this [07:17] problem. [07:19] >> So in people love dead Jews, you kind of [07:21] diagnose the problem. People are more [07:23] interested in venerating and [07:25] memorializing dead Jews rather than [07:27] celebrating living Jews. And in this [07:30] book, you try to present some solutions. [07:33] So, what evolved in your thinking [07:35] between those two books that led to this [07:37] publication? [07:39] >> So, People Love Dead Jews, which came [07:41] out the end of 2021? Um, that book, you [07:45] know, as you said, the excuse me, as you [07:47] said, that the the take-home from that [07:49] book was, you know, that, oh, people [07:51] venerate dead Jews more than living [07:52] ones. It's actually a little bit sharper [07:55] than that. The the real point of that [07:59] book is that a non the non-Jewish world [08:01] only finds Jews acceptable when Jews [08:04] have no power. [08:06] When Jews have no power, whether that [08:08] means they are politically impotent or [08:09] dead. [08:11] >> So that book was really exposing that [08:13] dynamic. And what happened after that [08:17] book came out was I was I wrote that [08:19] book as a as an intellectual exploration [08:20] of this issue. It was something I had [08:22] seen in my scholarship, in my work as a [08:25] journalist, as a travel writer. [gasps] [08:28] I really wasn't writing about I didn't [08:29] even really even think about it as a [08:30] book about anti-semitism. I really saw [08:32] it as a book about this sort of weird [08:34] intellectual problem. What happened [08:37] after that book came out was it it was [08:39] like a floodgate opened. I was suddenly [08:41] inundated with Jewish readers telling me [08:44] their own horror stories about [08:46] anti-semitism, their own personal [08:47] contemporary experiences, and asking me [08:49] for help. [08:52] I had no idea what to do about this. [08:55] You know, the next book I had lined up [08:56] to publish was literally a graphic novel [08:59] about a talking goat. [09:00] >> We talked about that one, too. [09:02] >> Yes, we did. Yes, that was a One Little [09:03] Goat, Passover Catastrophe. That's a [09:05] it's a book for children that I [09:06] published in 2025. That was the next [09:09] book I was planning to publish at that [09:11] point. Um, I was already thinking about [09:12] it and, you know, working be starting to [09:14] work with an illustrator. Um but [09:17] suddenly I was just inundated with this [09:18] stuff and I had not realized the extent [09:21] of this problem. I had not realized it [09:24] and what happened was [09:27] these you know these people asking for [09:29] help. I suddenly had people and and it [09:32] was true for my non-Jewish readers also. [09:34] You know I had made a mistake with that [09:35] book. I didn't realize that when you [09:36] write a non-fiction book about a problem [09:38] people expect you to solve the problem [09:39] at the end of the book. And so I had all [09:41] my readers asking me you know what's [09:43] your solution to this problem? And this [09:45] was my tasteless response was, you know, [09:46] do you really want me to give you the [09:47] final solution to the Jewish question [09:51] after October 7th, this became [09:53] institutionalized? [09:55] So, for example, um I it was a couple [09:59] weeks after October 7th, I was recruited [10:01] to participate in the anti-semitism [10:03] advisory group to the now former [10:05] president of Harvard. She didn't take a [10:08] whole lot of our advice. Um I wound up [10:10] as a witness in the congressional [10:12] investigation of Harvard. That was one [10:14] of many sectors where people were coming [10:16] to me with these institutionalized [10:18] problems. Um I had people coming to me [10:20] from the tech sector talking about um [10:23] data poisoning plots to poison AI [10:25] sources with anti-semitic propaganda [10:27] bringing me all of the evidence. I had [10:29] people coming to me from um you know [10:31] psychology um people coming to me from [10:33] teachers unions. I mean it was you know [10:35] um journalist unions. I mean, this was [10:37] sort of this insanity that like all [10:40] these people were coming to me asking [10:42] for me to solve this problem for them. [10:44] I'm like, again, my last book was about [10:46] a talking goat. Like, there's got to be [10:48] someone better than me to do this. But [10:50] then I started really thinking about [10:52] what could we be doing differently. And [10:54] because I had all this exposure to all [10:56] of these different sectors, because all [10:57] these people were coming to me, I could [11:00] really see the shape of the problem in a [11:02] way that no one else could because I [11:04] mean it's sort of like that story about, [11:05] you know, blind people who are looking, [11:08] you who are examining an elephant, [11:10] right? And one person thinks that they [11:11] touch the ear and they think it's a fan [11:13] and one person touches the the trunk and [11:15] they think it's a hose. And it was like [11:17] that. It was like all these people from [11:19] different sectors coming to me [11:21] describing the part that they saw and [11:23] I'm the one who can see the elephant [11:24] because of that. [11:26] >> And so suddenly I'm in this position [11:28] where I'm like wait a minute it's really [11:31] clear all of the things we could be [11:33] doing that we're not doing to solve this [11:36] problem. Like it actually is solvable. [11:38] It actually is solvable. And so then I [11:41] embarked on this project to really [11:43] address this problem in in in the for [11:45] the American public and for the Jewish [11:46] community as well. and to address the [11:49] elephant in the room, I guess you would [11:50] say, to continue your metaphor there. [11:53] >> So, I want to get to the heart really of [11:55] your argument. You write, and this was [11:57] actually in the excerpt that we also had [11:59] from your book in Hadasa magazine. [12:01] >> Anti-semitism, I have come to [12:03] understand, isn't primarily a bigotry or [12:05] bias. It is a lie told by people who [12:08] want to gain or maintain power. That big [12:10] lie is always the same. Jews are [12:13] destroying whatever a given society [12:15] values the most. that that big lie fools [12:18] people into thinking they are standing [12:19] up to their ideals while they are [12:21] actually just pushing Jews out of public [12:22] life. Today the big lie is winning. [12:26] I want you to unpack that first. What [12:29] changed to lead you to believe that [12:32] anti-semitism was not just, you know, [12:34] this ancient Jew hatred that we've [12:36] always said was just the worst and [12:38] continued for, you know, for millennia. [12:41] What evolved in your thinking to lead [12:43] you to believe that it was really about [12:45] power and maintaining power? [12:47] >> Seeing the evidence, seeing the [12:49] evidence, it's so it was like so [12:52] blindingly obvious. Like what happened [12:55] at the universities is a great example [12:57] of this. This was not an organic [13:00] movement. This wasn't I'm sorry. This [13:02] wasn't I'm I'm have to keep clearing my [13:04] throat here. [13:04] >> Sure. [13:07] >> What happened at the universities is an [13:09] obvious example of this. I mean this was [13:10] not an organic student movement where [13:13] you know students all sort of just you [13:15] know came to this conclusion and the [13:17] movement was building strength. No, this [13:20] was like they literally had a toolkit [13:21] that was given to them published on [13:24] October 7th in some cases even before [13:26] the attacks were public. I mean that's [13:28] the most amazing thing is this toolkit [13:30] with like the paragliders and everything [13:33] before people even saw the paragliders. [13:36] I I mean this is like it was so [13:37] transparent. There was, you know, and [13:40] and and this was a 30-year long plot. [13:42] Um, you know, there's an FBI wiretap [13:45] from 1993 [13:47] of Hamas operatives in meeting in a [13:49] hotel in Philadelphia. So, Hamas's [13:51] operations in the United States. And in [13:53] that wiretap, they talk about how their [13:55] goal is to take over the universities [13:57] because those are the pipelines to [13:58] American leadership. And they even say [14:00] in that um in that wiretap, you know, [14:02] let's not we can't if we're going to do [14:04] this successfully, we can't raise an [14:06] Islamic flag. we can't be barbaric [14:08] talking. They even use that language. [14:10] They say instead we need to talk about [14:12] justice. That's the language we need to [14:14] use to capture these universities. And [14:16] they did it like this is a plan. You [14:18] know, there's billions and billions of [14:20] dollars behind it. Um you know, this is [14:23] it's like it's not subtle. You know, I [14:26] don't know why we're pretending that [14:27] this is some sort of like, you know, [14:29] organic movement of, you know, people [14:30] rising up. No, this is a a movement [14:32] that's orchestrated by billions of [14:34] dollars from tyrannical regimes. [14:36] billions of dollars from tyrannical [14:38] regimes. And the reality is that's [14:40] always what anti-semitism has been. It's [14:43] not about like, you know, someone has [14:44] hate in their heart. [14:47] It's about the public being manipulated. [14:50] And so that when I talk about the lie of [14:52] anti-semitism, this to me is also very [14:54] important. [14:56] This is, you know, I think often we make [14:57] this mistake of saying, "Oh, [14:59] anti-semitism is this mutating virus." [15:02] I really hate that language. First of [15:05] all, it's not mutating. It's exactly the [15:07] same for thousands of years. Jews are [15:09] destroying what you value the most. It's [15:12] the same in 40 CE in Alexandria in [15:15] Egypt. It's the same at the Durban [15:17] conference in 2001 in South Africa. It's [15:21] the same. Jews are destroying what you [15:22] value the most. The only thing that's [15:24] changing in there is what you value the [15:25] most. [15:27] That's the same. And also I hate the [15:29] language of it's a virus because when [15:31] there's a virus that is like an organic [15:34] process force majour no one's benefiting [15:37] from it. This is a lie that someone is [15:41] telling and is benefiting from. So you [15:44] know why would you adopt this language [15:46] and this understanding that absolves [15:48] everybody of responsibility [15:51] like this isn't an organic thing. This [15:53] is not you know this isn't the weather. [15:55] This isn't force measure. this is a tool [15:58] of tyranny that we've seen for thousands [16:00] of years. So like why are we pretending [16:01] that it's something else? And I think [16:03] also this language of oh it's hate or [16:05] something like that also I think is not [16:08] helpful in fighting it because it's a [16:12] totally different toolkit that you use [16:14] to fight hate versus fighting a lie. If [16:17] you're fighting against hate you're [16:18] using tools like you know empathy, get [16:21] to know each other as human beings. You [16:22] know we need to like you know have [16:24] dinner together and those things are [16:26] important. And I want to be clear like [16:27] I'm you know making an argument against [16:28] empathy but those tools are not useful [16:31] when you're fighting a lie that people [16:33] have fallen for. If you're fighting a [16:35] lie that people have fallen for what you [16:36] need to do is expose the lie. And also [16:38] what that means is that the people who [16:40] have fallen for this lie they are not [16:41] the ones who are at fault. they are not [16:44] and and I think that that also changes [16:46] how you fight back against this because [16:48] to sit around and you know to to accuse [16:51] people who have fallen for this BS of [16:53] like oh you're a hateful person oh [16:55] you're you know an anti-semite like that [16:57] only makes those people defensive [17:00] those people are the victims of this lie [17:03] >> so let's talk a little bit about that [17:05] because [17:06] >> it does raise the question is how this [17:09] trickles down to the you know ordinary [17:12] offenders right? The ones who aren't [17:14] necessarily seeking to gain power or [17:16] maintain power, but yet engage in [17:19] offensive comments, vandalizing [17:20] institutions, and even violent acts [17:22] against Jews. So, where is the [17:25] connection between the those who are [17:28] involved with this plot and the billions [17:30] of dollars that support it and the [17:33] ordinary people who are engaging in all [17:34] kinds of crap right now? [17:37] So, I mean, the engaging in all kinds of [17:39] crap right now piece, by the way, is how [17:41] you know that this is orchestrated by [17:43] tyrannical regimes and that this is a [17:45] tyrannical ideology. [17:47] >> How? [17:48] >> Oh, because this movement, this is an [17:51] eliminationist hate campaign whose [17:53] purpose is to push Jews out of public [17:55] life. [17:57] And we have to sit here and waste all [17:58] this time being like, well, you know, [18:00] isn't this a political protest? Isn't [18:01] this criticism of Israel? like, oh, [18:04] isn't there a slippery slope between [18:06] criticism of Israel and anti-semitism? [18:08] It's like, no, these are two completely [18:10] unrelated things. One is discussion [18:13] about a country and its policies, and [18:17] another is driving a truck full of [18:19] explosives into a Jewish preschool. [18:23] These two things have no connection to [18:25] each other. [18:27] They have no connection to each other. [18:28] One is a conversation about people who [18:30] care about the future and the other is [18:32] an orchestrated eliminationist hate [18:34] movement that it relies on criminal [18:37] activity to function. [18:40] >> Here's [clears throat] what I mean by [18:40] that. This is a movement. The movement [18:42] is what the movement does. Here's what [18:44] the movement does. Harassment, [18:47] intimidation, as you say, vandalism, [18:49] assault, I mean stalking, these are [18:52] things that are against the law. Also, [18:54] discrimination. I'm going to give an [18:56] example of this. Um, I recently spoke in [18:59] Louisville, Kentucky, and I was uh heard [19:01] from people in the community there that [19:03] over the summer um the that the pride [19:07] parade in Louisville, Kentucky um had [19:10] they had an Israeli DJ who was scheduled [19:13] and you know contracted to participate [19:15] in the pride parade. And the people [19:17] organizing this pride parade started um [19:20] you know they started receiving you know [19:23] uh 10 million emails, phone calls um you [19:26] know people were calling their [19:27] employers. I mean this was like you know [19:28] protests you know all this kind of stuff [19:31] you know to get this Israeli DJ out of [19:33] their pride parade and the people [19:36] organizing this pride parade they didn't [19:37] know what hit them. They truly didn't [19:39] know what hit them. They [19:40] >> which is interesting because this has [19:41] been happening for three or four years [19:43] already at this point specifically a [19:44] pride parade. [19:45] >> Okay. like, you know, this is they, you [19:47] know, they didn't under whether they [19:49] knew what hit them or didn't, they [19:51] rolled over. They rolled over. It was [19:54] easier for them whether they knew what [19:56] hit them or they didn't and were just [19:57] like, "Wow, it seems like people in the [19:59] community really care about this issue." [20:01] Maybe [20:02] that's what they thought or maybe it [20:04] didn't matter because these people, you [20:07] know, this movement will not stop until [20:09] it achieves its goal. they will cross [20:10] every line that and this harassment [20:14] it's this is I mean this it's criminal [20:15] harassment and stalking right I mean to [20:17] you know send somebody 9 million emails [20:19] to send somebody nine you know call them [20:21] 9 million times you know these are not [20:23] elected officials you know these were [20:24] private citizens who are part of an [20:26] organization [gasps] [20:27] you know just harassment harassment [20:28] harassment that's what it relies on [20:30] until people roll over and what's so [20:32] interesting is what was the end result [20:33] of this they fired their Israeli DJ and [20:35] guess what that's against federal civil [20:38] rights legislation [20:40] They violated federal civil rights [20:42] legislation because guess what? It is [20:44] against American law to discriminate in [20:46] employment based on someone's national [20:48] origin. [20:49] >> So is there some legal recourse being [20:50] taken [20:51] >> that I haven't followed up on this with [20:53] this. I I'm speaking way too many places [20:55] to keep track of all these things and [20:56] quite frankly this is happening [20:57] everywhere. Um honestly like what you [21:01] see there is that that is that is how [21:03] you know that this movement requires [21:06] you know that that's how you know that [21:08] this movement is part of a of tyrannical [21:11] regime [21:12] >> because not one denter is allowed not [21:15] one not one right there's no diversity [21:19] of opinion within the movement [21:21] >> right if you think of other you know uh [21:23] organic social movements in the past [21:25] right like if you you know went to an [21:27] anti-Vietnam war protest, you know, 50 [21:29] years ago, more than 50 years ago. [21:32] >> You know, there's lots of different [21:33] slogans, right? You know, there's maybe [21:35] some slogans the movement's adopted as [21:37] its thing, make love, not war, whatever. [21:39] But like, you know, if you went to one [21:40] of those protests, you see like people [21:41] are bringing their own signs, with their [21:44] own slogans, right? These protests, if [21:48] you show up with your own sign, they [21:50] will throw you out. [21:52] >> They will throw you out. And we of [21:53] course now also know that these [21:55] protesters are paid. [21:57] >> That is also, you know, now been exposed [21:59] and very obvious. [22:01] >> Um there was actually there's a [22:03] something called network contagion [22:04] research institute. Um this is a a a [22:07] media lab that that studies like you [22:09] know [clears throat] mass um you know [22:10] billions of online postings and things [22:13] like that um and traces them to their [22:15] origins. Um network contagion research [22:18] in institute is based at Ruckers. I [22:19] think they also have one at University [22:21] of Maryland and there's other there's [22:23] maybe one or two other locations but [22:24] it's an academic institute and [22:27] they were able to trace these protests [22:29] back to like I think it's like five [22:31] 501c3s. [22:34] >> Five 501c3s. [22:36] They were all financed by someone named [22:38] Neville Roy Singum who's a person who [22:42] essentially is an asset of the Chinese [22:43] government. [22:45] >> Um he had sold his company to the [22:46] Chinese government. and he's now [22:48] basically a mouthpiece for the Chinese [22:49] government. I mean, it's like it's just [22:51] so transparent like it's, you know, [22:52] there's no organic anything about this, [22:54] >> right? [snorts] [22:56] >> You mentioned though about a little bit [22:58] about online and social media. So I mean [23:00] it seems to me that maybe one of the [23:01] links and again kind of back to those [23:03] ordinary offenders like the people like [23:05] you have an example in your book of you [23:06] know some guy in the supermarket and you [23:09] know he was with his son and somebody [23:11] you know said something obnoxious about [23:12] you know we don't want that Jewish [23:14] whatever [23:15] >> that person probably is not being [23:18] directly influenced by this network. [23:22] >> Oh but they are they are okay [23:24] >> because it's because of what's happening [23:25] on social media. In other words, you [23:27] don't have to be necessarily directly [23:29] connected to this plot to be exposed to [23:33] everything that's happening. [23:34] >> Oh, yeah. So, so to answer your question [23:35] from earlier, which I feel like I I got [23:36] on down I went down a rabbit hole and [23:38] didn't quite answer. Um, [23:41] you know, you don't pay for Tik Tok. You [23:44] don't pay for Instagram. [23:46] That means you're the product. [23:49] People don't understand how much they [23:51] are being manipulated. And the reason [23:53] they don't understand it also is again [23:55] because this and I think this is why [23:56] it's so important for your listeners to [23:58] understand the structure of [23:59] anti-semitism being a lie that's used to [24:03] by people who want to gain or maintain [24:05] power and the lie is always the same. [24:07] Jews are destroying what you value the [24:08] most. [24:11] This lie is in people in the the people [24:14] who are pushing this lie and you want to [24:17] be clear like it's not only tyrannical [24:19] regimes. could be, you know, anyone who [24:21] wants to gain or maintain power. That [24:22] could be, it doesn't have to be like the [24:24] Ayatollah. This could be social media [24:26] influencer who's looking for more [24:28] clicks, right? I mean, it could be the [24:29] middle school kid who wants to be the [24:31] cool kid in the group. [24:32] >> Um, you know, this [24:35] >> it works through this saturation of the [24:37] messaging. People don't realize how the [24:40] their messaging has been saturated, [24:42] right? Social media is built for this, [24:44] right? The algorithms push you toward [24:45] greater and greater extremes. you don't [24:48] even realize you're being pushed into [24:49] these extremes. Um, you know, person [24:52] making a, you know, anti-semitic [24:54] comments in a supermarket. Um, honestly, [24:57] they are motivated by these things. You [24:59] know, when my niece is being harassed at [25:02] Disney World by someone who's screaming [25:04] at her that she's a genocidal baby [25:06] killer. My niece is 14 years old. [25:09] You know, I mean, that person, [25:12] you know, does that person have hate in [25:14] their heart? I mean, yeah, probably. But [25:16] where did they get this idea that it [25:18] made sense to harass a 14-year-old at [25:20] Disney World who's, you know, wearing a [25:22] Jewish star? [25:23] >> Mhm. [25:24] >> This is where they got the idea. This is [25:27] where they got the idea. Like I I think [25:28] people don't understand the extent to [25:30] which this this messaging can be can [25:33] saturate can saturate someone's [25:36] everything they see all the time. If all [25:38] you hear all the time 247 on your phone [25:42] is Zionism is genocide. Zionism is [25:44] genocide. Zionism is genocide. Zionism [25:46] is genocide. Zionism is genocide. [25:47] Suddenly you're like somehow I have this [25:50] association between Zionism and [25:52] genocide. [25:54] >> I [snorts] I wonder where that came [25:55] from. It's like, you know, there you [25:57] weren't presented this with evidence. It [25:59] wasn't like you you know, you didn't [26:01] come to this conclusion because like you [26:03] you know, you read some peer-reviewed [26:05] article somewhere. [26:07] >> You came to this conclusion because you [26:08] heard it seven million times. This is [26:09] what um psychologists call the elucory [26:12] truth effect. Um elucory truth effect. [26:15] It's a a it's a concept in psychology [26:17] which is when you hear a why repeated [26:19] often enough, you start to believe it [26:21] even if it contradicts what you already [26:23] know. [26:24] >> You know, even if it's something a topic [26:26] you don't understand or don't know [26:27] anything about, even if it contradicts [26:28] your prior your prior beliefs because [26:31] there's something cognitive in your [26:32] brain where you're like, I'm drowning in [26:35] this like or you don't feel like you're [26:36] drowning. You're just like, you know, [26:37] it's like swimming in water and not [26:38] knowing what water is, right? Like a [26:40] fish being like, what's water? you don't [26:43] even understand that you're saturated in [26:45] in this. This is just your world. And [26:46] so, you know, yeah, of course, it's it's [26:48] almost it's weird to not accept the lie. [26:52] >> It's weird to not accept the lie when [26:54] that has saturated your world. [26:57] >> So, you know, I mean, some people, you [26:59] know, look, and this lie has been around [27:00] for a long time. So, you know, are there [27:03] people who are hearing this through [27:05] their families or, you know, through, [27:08] you know, older versions of this that [27:11] come through, you know, church teachings [27:14] prior, you know, that are old that [27:16] predate, you know, Vatican 2 or [27:18] something. I mean, yes, there's those [27:20] kinds of channels. Um, but I mean, this [27:23] is the obvious source of this. I mean, [27:25] and you know, the idea that, oh, there's [27:26] right-wing anti-semitism, there's [27:28] left-wing anti-semitism. It's like, this [27:31] is a meaningless distinction. It's it's [27:32] all the big lie. Jews are destroying [27:34] what you value the most, and it's just [27:36] what do you value the most in your [27:37] social circle? And to your point, and [27:39] you mentioned this before about this [27:41] plot poisoning on online and the [27:45] Wikipedia example specifically, which [27:47] you write about and the ADL just came [27:49] out with a report, what yesterday I [27:51] think, [27:52] >> um, emphasizing what they exposed last [27:55] year about editors being part of this, [27:58] right, campaign to distort and and lie [28:03] about Zionism in particular, right? So, [28:06] >> it's more than that. It's Oh, sorry. [28:08] over overlapped but uh [28:09] >> no [laughter] it's okay it's it's it's I [28:11] mean it's obviously it is more than that [28:13] but it's the fact that this you know [28:15] campaign is happening and they are [28:16] infiltrating these sources that become [28:19] such critical sources of information so [28:21] you know whether you got it from your [28:22] family or you're you know directly [28:24] exposed to these these beings and [28:27] entities um you look up Zionism right [28:30] you hear it all the time you look up [28:31] Zionism under Wikipedia I actually want [28:33] to I want to read to you so before 2022 [28:36] Wikipedia's main article on Zionism [28:38] defined it correctly. The national [28:40] movement of the Jewish people that [28:42] supports the reestablishment of a Jewish [28:44] homeland in the territory defined as the [28:46] historic land of Israel. So I looked it [28:49] up and saw in your book also like I [28:52] think in early 2024 it had it had [28:54] changed and you know much more uh [28:58] anti-Israel definition. This morning I [29:01] looked it up and it looked like it was [29:02] tweaked a little bit but still obviously [29:04] problematic. So it says now defines [29:06] Zionism as an ethnic nationalist [29:09] movement that emerged in the late 19th [29:11] century Europe to establish and support [29:13] a Jewish homeland through colonization [29:16] in the region of Palestine which roughly [29:18] corresponds to the land of Israel and [29:19] Judaism itself central to Jewish [29:21] history. So tell us a little bit about [29:24] what exactly was happening at Reddit and [29:27] Wikipedia, these major sources not only [29:30] of information but also feeders now to [29:32] AI. [29:33] >> Yes. So again, I had this weird front [29:36] row seat to this um where this is one of [29:39] the uh examples of people from a sector [29:42] coming to me to as whistleblowers about [29:44] this. Um there was this happened to me [29:47] because I was um someone who was a [29:50] moderator of a Jewish forum on Reddit [29:53] came to me asking me to participate in, [29:55] you know, an ask me anything event in a [29:57] Jewish in a uh they're called [29:59] subreddits. I didn't know these this [30:00] lingo either. um to participate in, you [30:03] know, answering readers questions. And [30:06] before I did this, he said, you know, [30:08] oh, could we just have a find a time to [30:10] speak before you do this um you know, [30:12] before you do this uh ask me anything [30:14] event? I just want to fill you in on [30:15] what we've been dealing with. [30:18] It turned out what he was dealing with [30:20] was this data poisoning plot on Reddit [30:23] and Wikipedia. [30:25] um this person who came to me to as a [30:28] whistleblower about this which I later [30:29] realized is what he was doing. um in [30:32] real life he's a data scientist you know [30:34] he's a volunteer moderator on Reddit but [30:37] you know in real life he does you know [30:38] work in technology and he had [30:41] essentially he had uncovered this plot [30:43] where it was involving moderators on [30:46] Reddit where what was it what he had [30:49] noticed initially was that there was [30:51] this um just give me a moment to just [30:55] wipe my nose and take a drink sorry [31:00] Okay. [31:02] What he had noticed was that there were [31:06] moderators on some of these very anodine [31:10] Reddit forums that have millions of [31:12] subscribers. So something like [31:14] documentary films or there was another [31:16] one that is about you know it's like [31:18] people post blooper videos or something. [31:22] And you know after October 7th they're [31:24] suddenly have are saturated with this [31:26] content that's you know globalized the [31:28] inifat kamas is the resistance this sort [31:30] of thing and [31:33] he's like well this is weird right [31:35] because these were forums that had [31:38] nothing to do with the Middle East they [31:39] had nothing to do with Israel. They had [31:41] nothing to do with Jews. They had [31:42] nothing to do with Arabs. They had [31:42] nothing to do with you know it's like [31:44] like why is you know this blooper video [31:46] forum suddenly posting all this [31:48] globalizing antifat stuff. He started [31:52] tracing the people and the accounts that [31:54] were involved in this and he was [31:58] basically able to find it. It's not like [32:01] a big secret, but like you know there's [32:02] all these there uh Discord servers and [32:05] Telegram channels where people involved [32:07] in these campaigns organize to flood the [32:11] boat with this information. Um he was [32:15] able to sort of trace this back to some [32:17] of these and he's not the only person [32:18] who was doing this. There's uh now [32:20] actually several groups that are tracing [32:22] these problems and these accounts is [32:24] able to trace these back to Hamas's [32:27] English language propaganda channels. [32:30] So I mean it's not a big secret and you [32:32] know as you mentioned like you know you [32:33] gave the obvious example of the Zionism [32:35] entry. Um which as you point out at [32:37] least has been scaled back very slightly [32:40] in the past year since I was writing [32:41] about this. Um it used to not even [32:44] mention that the land of Israel [32:46] historically was a Jewish homeland. Now [32:47] it at least yay it mentions that um [32:51] it what they also did was wipe the [32:53] entire terrorist history of kamas off of [32:56] Wikipedia. [32:57] >> I mean it was like they were you know [32:58] erasing you know 30 years of terrorist [33:01] activity of kamas so to make it look [33:02] like a non-terror group. I mean this is [33:05] a foreign terrorist organization you [33:07] know that's prescribed by the state [33:09] department. And you it was just so clear [33:12] like the way that these edits were [33:14] happening. Um, and the problem is that [33:16] this was sort of being covered in the [33:18] media as like, oh, edit wars on [33:19] Wikipedia. You know, everybody's trying [33:21] to manipulate Wikipedia. You know, [33:22] corporations also try to manipulate [33:24] Wikipedia. You know, whatever company, [33:27] you know, they're fixing their, you [33:29] know, Kleenex is changing their [33:31] Wikipedia entry to be more favorable to [33:33] their company or whatever. I don't know. [33:34] But, you know, this isn't just like, you [33:37] know, editors who are, you know, or [33:39] people who are fans of a certain band [33:40] who are changing this. This is an [33:42] organized plot. And the reason that [33:44] these these groups were targeting Reddit [33:47] and Wikipedia is because these are the [33:49] major feeders for large language models [33:52] that are part of AI. So for example, [33:55] Reddit, you know, a platform that, you [33:58] know, I as a person who I don't spend a [33:59] lot of time online, you know, didn't [34:01] seem like it was so important to me. [34:03] Reddit has a contract with Open AI. Um [34:06] the contract is not only to be a feeder [34:08] for AI um you know which they are [34:10] because they're like a primarily [34:11] textbased you know public open open [34:14] source forum but also they had basically [34:16] contracted with them to be an [34:18] information veter. [34:20] Um, so in other words, if people anyone [34:22] any link that was posted to to Reddit [34:26] that had it was something it was a [34:28] really low threshold. I think it was [34:29] like three upvotes [34:31] was then considered a higher quality [34:33] piece of information [34:35] >> by these LLMs. So I mean, you know, this [34:37] was like this is a reason that these [34:39] forums were being targeted. I mean [34:40] Wikipedia has you know a let's just say [34:43] a mutually beneficial relationship with [34:45] Google where you know Google uses that [34:48] as their top feeder for their searches [34:50] you know you know most searches through [34:52] Google and obviously Gemini and other [34:54] Google products are drawing very heavily [34:57] on Wikipedia [34:59] >> um which in turn gives Wikipedia [35:01] credibility which it otherwise frankly [35:03] shouldn't have. I mean this is an [35:07] encyclopedia written by random people. [35:09] So what do you think what do you think [35:12] can be done? Do you see any [35:13] opportunities here? And and what can be [35:16] done to fix this problem? And do are [35:19] there any opportunities? [35:20] >> There are many opportunities to fix this [35:22] problem. Um so look and I'm not the [35:25] right person to talk about with the [35:26] problem the ways to fix this problem. [35:28] There's a lot of ways to fix this [35:30] problem because as I said the way to the [35:32] way to fight a lie is exposure. [35:35] um you know these institutions don't [35:38] need to magically have credibility they [35:41] don't [35:43] they don't so exposure is a huge piece [35:45] of this um people understanding I mean [35:48] and you know schools already understand [35:49] this I mean my my kids who go to public [35:51] school like they you know you're not [35:53] allowed to use Wikipedia as a source you [35:56] know if you're writing a writing you [35:58] know doing research at school like you [36:00] know people are people are sort of [36:01] already aware of this but credibility [36:03] huge issue [36:04] Um the platforms have a role to play in [36:07] this. Government regulation has a role [36:09] to play in this. Um you know also [36:12] there's a role for understanding tracing [36:15] foreign malign influence in our [36:17] information channels. I mean this is a [36:20] problem for American intelligence [36:22] agencies. This is a problem that you [36:24] know this is something that can be dealt [36:26] with by you know this is part of [36:28] honestly protecting our country from you [36:30] know foreign terrorist organizations. [36:33] Um so you know there's and there's also [36:36] technical um there are also you know [36:38] technological adjustments that can be [36:40] made to these LLMs. I know that's and [36:42] this is way beyond my ability but um [36:44] there are people I know in the tech [36:46] world who are working on those kinds of [36:47] problems. This is what the tech world [36:49] calls alignment. [36:50] >> Um you know the way that AI um the way [36:53] that AI agents are aligned with you know [36:56] uh you know greater social good that [36:59] means that you have to define what the [37:00] greater greater social good is very [37:02] subjective. [37:03] >> Yes. Exactly. Well this is the [37:04] challenge. This is the challenge but [37:06] there are there are people [37:07] >> you know and also there's ways of [37:10] >> adjusting how LLM determine what's [37:13] credible. And I want to say for your um [37:16] listeners, this is this is a problem we [37:18] dealt with before. Um and this is also [37:21] the way I teach about this at the Tel [37:22] Institute, which is my nonprofit that is [37:25] introducing this to students in public [37:26] schools and also in the Jewish [37:28] community. I could say more about that. [37:30] Well, [37:31] >> yes. Um but you know this this um the [37:34] big why always accelerates through new [37:37] media in every era. And the reason for [37:40] that is because new media is the wild [37:41] west. You don't yet know who's credible [37:43] and who's not. And because you don't yet [37:45] know who who's credible and who's not, [37:47] the only criteria you have for [37:49] credibility is exposure, [37:52] right? Whoever whatever you're hearing [37:54] the most of is what turns out to be [37:56] true. And that's how these LLMs, these [37:57] AI, you know, these AI systems determine [38:00] what's credible. They determine it based [38:02] on quote consensus. [38:05] Consensus means the thing that's the [38:07] most people are saying. I mean this is [38:10] you know recipe for anti-semitism. [38:13] So you know that and that but that was [38:15] true at the beginning of radio that's [38:17] true at the beginning of television [38:19] right that was true at you know that was [38:21] true with the printing press um you know [38:24] uh the case of Simon of Trent it was a [38:26] blood liel case from 1475 in Italy that [38:30] case quote went viral because of the [38:32] printing press was new at the time and [38:34] everybody was so dazzled by you know by [38:36] you know you could make you could print [38:37] a a bajillion woodcuts of you know Jews [38:41] killing and butchering this child. You [38:44] know, that wasn't organic either, [38:45] though. All the information about Simon [38:48] of Trent about, you know, that was just, [38:50] you know, that was claiming that this [38:51] Jewish community had murdered this, you [38:53] know, innocent boy. [38:56] There's a book by um the historian Magda [38:58] Tetar called Blood Lel. This book came [39:00] out in 2020. and she unpacks that case [39:03] and what she determines from archival [39:06] research is every piece of information [39:09] that comes out of the printing press [39:11] about Simon of Trent, this blood wel [39:13] case that went viral, it all traces back [39:15] to one person. [39:17] >> There was this one bishop in Trent who [39:20] paid what we today would call [39:22] influencers to publish about Simon of [39:25] Trent. He paid poets who were popular. [39:27] He paid artists to do woodcuts, you [39:30] know, for to for that became these, you [39:32] know, things that they were broadsiz [39:33] that they post on all the towns. He [39:35] paid, you know, people to, you know, [39:37] publish sermons about this. Um, almost [39:40] every document about, I mean, he was [39:42] manipulating court records. Almost every [39:43] document that came out of the printing [39:45] press about Simon of Trent traces back [39:47] to this one guy and his friends and [39:49] people he paid. [39:51] >> So, this is a very old problem. [39:53] >> Yeah. [39:54] history repeats itself right in so many [39:57] different ways and percolating through [40:00] the through the century. So I do want to [40:02] shift to the solutions that you talk [40:05] about and this tell institute that you [40:07] have founded. [40:08] >> Describe what its main goals are and who [40:11] again you're really trying to reach and [40:13] how successful when do you determine [40:15] success with this kind of approach. So [40:18] the Tel Institute um I is is something I [40:22] founded in in my uh goal to find [40:26] solutions to this problem. Um [40:29] this is uh a nonprofit that whose goal [40:33] is to educate the broader public about [40:36] Jewish civilization and the dynamics of [40:38] anti-semitism starting in educational [40:41] settings. So we have are we actually [40:44] started in public schools. Um, this is a [40:46] crash course in Jewish civilization and [40:48] the dynamics of anti-semitism. It's [40:50] eight lessons. It's not a big lift. It's [40:52] designed for people who have no [40:54] background at all. Um, and what is [40:57] unique about our program is this is [40:58] completely different from anything else [40:59] that's out there because we are teaching [41:02] about the content of Jewish [41:04] civilization. [41:06] Specifically, we are teaching about [41:08] Jewish civilization as an [41:09] anti-terrannical movement since ancient [41:11] times. [41:13] And we are tying that anti- tyrannical [41:16] movement since ancient times to the [41:19] history of anti-semitism for thousands [41:20] of years because when you have an [41:22] anti-yrannical movement, it pisses off [41:24] tyrants. We are teaching this as a [41:26] non-conformist movement for thousands of [41:28] years. And when you have a [41:29] non-conformist movement, it pisses off [41:30] dominant societies that need everyone to [41:32] conform in order to validate whatever [41:34] they think is true this week. So we've [41:37] in completely intertwined this the [41:40] content of Jewish civilization and the [41:43] dynamics of anti-semitism and our goal [41:44] is pattern recognition. So we have uh [41:47] the way we teach about anti-semitism [41:49] there's it's case studies about the big [41:52] why and this is we've set this up so [41:54] that a 13-year-old can understand it. [41:56] >> I was just going to say this is for [41:57] middle schoolers I think primarily and [41:59] you know you start using terms like [42:00] anti-yrannical and things like that [42:03] they're not going to get it right. [42:04] >> Oh no they get it. They get it. Mhm. [42:06] They do. Because what we talk about is [42:08] what are the groundbreaking ideas of [42:11] Jewish civilization? What what are the [42:13] groundbreaking ideas? One god, [42:15] monotheism. [42:17] Well, what are the other people doing in [42:19] the ancient world? They're worshiping [42:21] lots of gods. One of them's the [42:23] dictator, right? One of them's the [42:25] pharaoh. One of them's the Roman [42:26] emperor. So, what does it mean when the [42:29] Jews aren't bowing to other gods? Who [42:31] else aren't they bowing to? [42:33] >> We we do it that way. [42:34] >> Yeah. Right. We do. Yeah. We talk about [42:36] the Torah um in public school settings [42:39] actually the way we frame it is laws [42:40] that don't come from kingsh [42:43] >> right because in other settings you know [42:45] code of Hamarabi it gets its authority [42:47] from Hammurabi. Right here even the [42:50] kings have to follow these laws. Doesn't [42:53] mean they always do but even the kings [42:54] are expected to follow these laws. Um, [42:57] you know, we talk about the story of [43:00] freedom, right? This is what we would [43:02] call the Passover story, but we talk [43:04] about like how unusual this is in the [43:06] ancient world, right? It's not the [43:07] Odyssey. The Odyssey is about the king [43:09] has to come home to his rightful place [43:10] in the palace, right? This is about the [43:12] slaves being freed, right? The king is [43:15] the loser in this story. [43:17] >> We talk I also like the way that you [43:20] write about it and you set it up in [43:22] terms of combining. It's not just the [43:25] negative. It's not just anti-semitism. [43:27] It's not just the Holocaust. And it's [43:29] not just Jews as heroes, but you're [43:31] really trying to say this is one story [43:33] that needs to be elucidated. [43:36] >> Yes. I think that it's it's a huge [43:38] mistake to think that there's even I [43:40] don't even we don't use that language of [43:41] there's the positive story and the [43:42] negative story. It is one story and it [43:45] is a one story of a tiny tiny minority. [43:48] That's the other thing we keep doing. We [43:50] keep showing the map of the world. We [43:52] keep showing the map of the world. Can [43:53] you even find Israel on this map? Good [43:55] luck. Good luck. [43:57] >> Right? We show all these other empires, [43:58] right? Here's how Christianity took over [44:00] all of Europe and the the Americas and [44:03] beyond. Here's how Islam took over all [44:04] of the Middle East and North Africa, [44:06] Central Asia, and beyond. Can you find [44:08] Israel on this map? How many Jews are [44:10] there in the world? People don't know [44:12] this. Like, people really are like, "Oh, [44:13] Jews are like, you know, 10% of the [44:14] world's population, 20%." Like, 0.2. [44:18] They're shocked. Um 0.2. You know, let's [44:21] talk again about colonization. [44:23] [laughter] Here's your world map. Let's [44:25] talk about who's colonizing. Who do you [44:26] think is colonizing on this world map? [44:28] Um, you know, so this is but we are, [44:30] yeah, we're we're we put this in terms [44:33] that children understand. Um, and we [44:37] talk about what we call the big lie. [44:39] That's a thing a child can understand. [44:41] Anti-semitism, [44:43] bigotry, these are harder for kids to [44:44] understand actually. [44:46] >> Kids know what a lie is. [44:48] >> Kids know what a lie is. Kids know what [44:50] it means to fall for a lie, right? And [44:52] they also know that there's something [44:54] called a liar who benefits from the lie. [44:58] That's like children, they get it, [45:00] right? And this whole like, oh, it's a [45:01] mutating virus, blah, blah, blah. Like, [45:03] we're using this language that makes [45:05] people think that this is a a weather [45:07] pattern that they can't control instead [45:10] of making them understand like, wait a [45:11] minute, where am I on this chart? Right? [45:13] Here's the chart. Who's the liar in this [45:15] situation? Again, we do this with simple [45:17] case studies. Um, who's the liar? what's [45:21] the what's the value in this society or [45:24] in this situation and how does the liar [45:26] say the Jews are ruining it right and we [45:29] just like and it's like they it's a [45:30] >> plug example give like your favorite [45:32] example [45:33] >> plug and play um thinking of which [45:37] example to use I mean like yeah we have [45:39] a bunch of these case studies um so [45:41] plugand play would be like the Iranian [45:44] regime capturing the Durban conference [45:47] um you know this one we do for high [45:49] schoolers but um even high school. It's [45:50] nth grade. Um, you know, [45:53] >> and for our listeners, I was very [45:55] involved in covering the Durban [45:56] conference way back when, which [45:59] coincided with the 9/11. So, it did not [46:02] did not get the press that it it [46:04] deserved. [46:06] Just for our listeners, refresh briefly [46:08] what what happened there. [46:09] >> This was a UN conference against racism [46:11] and xenophobia and related intolerance [46:13] that was taken over by the Iranian [46:15] regime and other authoritarian regimes. [46:18] So that the entire focus of the [46:20] conference was condemning Israel and at [46:24] the conference itself, Jews wereounded [46:26] off the stage. Um, and it left the UN [46:30] and 3,600 NOS's completely bereft of any [46:33] kind of language to talk about Islamist [46:35] terrorism 4 days later than 9/11 [46:38] attacks. So the way we explain this for [46:41] children, I mean is, you know, this was [46:43] a conference that was supposed to be [46:45] about, you know, human rights. [46:49] Who is the liar? You have the Iranian [46:51] regime. You know, what is the Iranians [46:53] regime attitude toward human rights? And [46:55] we have, you know, primary sources which [46:56] are they're like a sentence. You know, [46:59] here's the Iranian regime's president [47:01] talking about how he wants, you know, [47:02] death to America, death to Israel. [47:04] Here's the, you know, here's the report [47:07] um of how the Iranian regime executed [47:10] tens of thousands of dissident, right? [47:12] Here's how many people Iran executed [47:15] that year, right? Something like that. [47:17] And then we say, and then we show, you [47:20] know, all of these we so who is the [47:22] liar? There you go, in your chart. [47:25] Because um they captured the whole Asia [47:27] Pacific part of the conference. They [47:29] would not allow Jewish delegates to [47:31] attend. They not issue them visas to [47:33] Israeli delegates and to Jewish NOS's. [47:35] They kept them out of the conference. [47:37] They didn't even issue visas to [47:39] Australians because that was a New [47:41] Zealanders because those were states [47:42] that recognized Israel. So they created [47:43] a Jewree conference um where they [47:46] drafted all these things. So who is the [47:48] liar? There you go. Iranian regime and [47:51] other you know dictatorships in the Asia [47:54] block. What is the value? Human rights [47:57] and anti-racism. [48:00] Right? How are they saying that Jews are [48:02] the violators of this? The statement [48:04] that comes out of this conference, 70 [48:06] pages long, only one country is [48:08] mentioned as a violator of human rights. [48:11] >> How is new media used to excel [48:13] accelerate the lie? [48:15] >> This is the beginning of the internet, [48:17] right? In 2001. [48:18] >> Yeah. [48:18] >> Yeah. I mean, this is like a way that [48:20] children understand it. I mean, I can [48:21] give another Oh, another example would [48:22] be um [48:23] >> we have a case study on Soviet [48:25] anti-ionism. That one really surprises [48:27] the kids because they see the Soviet [48:30] propaganda, [48:32] >> all the same slogans they're hearing now [48:34] on their phone. Zionism is genocide. [48:37] Here it is from 1975. Zionism is racism. [48:40] Zionism is colonialism. Zionism is [48:43] apartheid. And then we told them about [48:45] the Soviet Union and how it was [48:47] persecuting 2 million Soviet Jews. how [48:50] there were all these countries that were [48:52] part of it that were its colonies that [48:54] it was trying to keep in line that they [48:57] those countries all expel their and you [48:59] know persecute their Jewish communities. [49:02] So, I mean, it's like it's not hard. [49:03] Like, it's really not hard. You know, we [49:05] have this case study about Henry Ford, [49:07] um, you know, from the 1920s publishing [49:09] the protocols of the Elders of Zion. Um, [49:12] you know, he was, you know, a [49:13] businessman. You know, Jews are, you [49:15] know, Jews are, you know, we're a pro- [49:17] capitalist country. Jews are communists, [49:19] right? Jews are just trying to destroy [49:20] capitalism, [laughter] right? I mean, [49:22] this is like, you know, it's a [49:23] fill-in-theblank. It's a fill in the [49:25] blank. And it's so easy for children to [49:28] get this. How do you define Jews for [49:32] these people who may not even be exposed [49:35] to Jews or very few? And how do you [49:39] define the connection between Jews in [49:40] Israel? [49:41] >> Yes. So we begin these lessons. So I [49:44] want to be clear like the part about [49:45] anti-semitism is like integrated [49:47] completely with this um this you know [49:49] lessons on Jewish civilization in [49:51] ancient times and in the present. And in [49:53] the present that's very important. We [49:55] talk about the survival and resilience [49:56] of the Jewish people. We talk about [49:57] modern Zionism and we bring it to the [50:00] last lesson is about living Jews today. [50:02] Um we explain at the top who are Jews [50:07] because that is like no one ever's [50:09] answered that question for people and we [50:11] explain that Jews do not fit are Jews [50:15] are older than every identity category [50:18] you've heard of as a modern American. [50:21] Jews predate the modern idea of race. [50:24] They predate religion. They predate [50:25] nationality. They predate ethnicity. And [50:28] there's an answer. Jews are a type of [50:31] social group that was common in the [50:33] ancient world, uncommon today. [50:36] Jews are a joinable tribal group with a [50:38] shared history, homeland, and culture. [50:42] And in he in English, that's a sentence. [50:45] And in Hebrew, it's one word. It's two [50:47] letters long that your listeners know. [50:48] Am Jews are ami Israel, the Jewish [50:51] people, the people of Israel. So we [50:54] explain this as this is basically like [50:56] every other indigenous group on the [50:58] planet, right? This is a a a [51:00] civilization that has, you know, that [51:04] the culture is connected to the [51:07] microclimate of the place where it's [51:09] from. So you know, for example, I mean, [51:12] we just finished celebrating Sukot as [51:13] we're recording this. Um, I mean, that's [51:15] an example of a holiday that's based on [51:17] the, you know, why do we have all these, [51:19] you know, holidays in the fall? It's [51:21] because [51:23] Israel then and now is a place where [51:25] rain only falls in the autumn and they [51:27] don't have a major river. So I mean this [51:29] is like a big rain dance, right? All the [51:31] fall holidays are, you know, we're [51:33] pleading to God for rain. Um all of the [51:36] holidays that are based on pilgrimages [51:37] to Jerusalem, right? This is like, you [51:39] know, we basically present this as a [51:41] land-based group, very similar [51:43] indigenous practices to every other [51:44] indigenous group on the planet. [51:47] But then we introduce what is unusual [51:49] about this group which is these [51:52] groundbreaking ideas that have this huge [51:53] impact on world history and then we go [51:55] into you know these ideas like [51:56] monotheism the to you know laws that [51:59] don't come from king story of freedom [52:01] etc. [52:03] um we ground them in those things. we [52:05] then talk about what is the most [52:08] important piece of this is how did this [52:10] group of people survive because I will [52:12] tell you that um certainly in the [52:13] non-Jewish schools that is that blows [52:16] people's minds like this is the response [52:18] that students have given for this is [52:20] like these people have been around for [52:22] 3,000 years like seriously [52:25] like they're blown away and then the [52:27] question is how how and there's an [52:31] answer to that and we spell it out for [52:32] them we're like here are the choices [52:34] pieces that these communities made to [52:37] preserve this civilization. [52:39] And so, you know, we talk about the [52:41] maintenance and revival of Hebrew. Um, [52:43] we talk about Zionism as a typical [52:46] national movement from the 19th and 20th [52:48] centuries. Like there are many there's [52:49] dozens and dozens of other national [52:51] movements that arise at exactly the same [52:53] time when empires are being partitioned [52:55] into nation states. We talk about how, [52:58] you know, this is the same thing that [52:59] happened, you know, in every single [53:00] case. Nation states emerge through these [53:02] partitions with massive and violent [53:05] population upheavalss. [53:07] What happens to the state of Israel is [53:08] very similar to like the partition of [53:10] India, [53:11] >> Greece and Turkey, Germany and Poland. I [53:14] mean it's like you could keep going. So [53:15] those like you know we present this as a [53:17] you know this is a typical national [53:19] movement but what is atypical is the [53:20] preservation of this culture and we [53:22] bring it up to the present day. I mean [53:24] at the end we talk about living Jews [53:25] today. Um you know we talk about things [53:28] like safaria, right? Right. I mean, if [53:30] we talk about, you know, we talk about, [53:31] you know, contemporary Israeli society. [53:33] We talk about um for the for the [53:35] non-Jewish groups, we have little videos [53:37] of contemporary American Jewish [53:38] teenagers talking about their lives. And [53:40] I want to tell your listeners, this is a [53:42] program. What started happening is I [53:44] started getting a lot of um demand for [53:47] this program from within the Jewish [53:49] community. [53:51] >> People started coming to me saying, "Our [53:52] kids need this also. They also don't [53:54] know this." And so in response to [53:56] demand, we created a program for barnbot [53:59] mitzvah students which is taught in [54:01] synagogues. We now have 45 synagogues [54:03] that that entered our initial pilot [54:05] that's are piloting it now this you know [54:07] um in October of 2026 as we're recording [54:10] this. Um I have another 45 that are it's [54:13] a rolling basis because we don't have [54:15] the capacity to meet the demand that we [54:16] have. Um we're still a very small [54:18] organization looking to grow. Um, but I [54:22] mean, everybody needs this story. Um, is [54:24] what we've discovered. And it's it's [54:27] amazing how this story changes the way [54:29] people think. [54:31] >> Changes how non-Jews think. I mean, I've [54:34] had non-Jewish teachers sort of come to [54:35] me and they're like, "This is an [54:37] astonishing story." I mean, I had one [54:39] there was one principal who went to one [54:40] of our trainings who, you know, came to [54:43] us afterwards with tears in her eyes and [54:45] she says, this was an African-American [54:46] woman from a primarily um minority [54:49] school and she said, these are her [54:51] words. She says, I need to bring this [54:53] story back to my black and brown [54:55] students because they need this story. [54:57] >> Because it's not a story about [54:58] victimhood. This is a this is a story [55:01] about the choices that people and [55:04] communities can make to build a future [55:06] together. [55:07] >> Yeah. [55:08] It sounds so impressive and obviously [55:12] you're starting small because that's [55:14] where you have to start and the problems [55:16] that you describe are so large. [55:18] >> Yes. [55:19] >> Where do you where do you see the [55:22] possibility of success? Like what needs [55:25] to happen to get to success? [55:28] >> Um scale scale. So we are thinking about [55:32] you know how to build this bigger how to [55:34] expand this. To be quite honest, right [55:36] now um right now we have two people [55:39] working in this organization and it is [55:41] not adequate for our demand. So we are [55:43] looking to expand. [55:44] >> Um we have this sort of very upside down [55:46] problem that most startups don't have [55:48] which is that we have more demand than [55:50] we can handle. Usually it's the other [55:51] way around. It's like oh I'm chasing [55:52] clients and trying to build a client [55:54] base. It's like oh boy there are people [55:56] I'm like the people I have to say no to [55:58] or not yet to. It's kind of astonishing. [56:01] It's like, you know, I mean, we've been [56:03] talking with people in the Australian [56:05] Parliament. [56:06] >> I mean, we've been, you know, talking to [56:08] state commissioners, right? I mean, it's [56:10] sort of, you know, it's like I can't, [56:12] you know, right now it's like we are [56:13] still figuring out our strategy for how [56:15] to build. [56:16] >> It's also become really clear to us [56:18] that, you know, I also I see this school [56:20] programs or this sort of, you know, this [56:22] little educational, you know, [56:23] educational program that's taught to be [56:25] clear also, this isn't like me [56:27] parachuting into your classroom. These [56:28] are taught by the teachers in the [56:30] classrooms. And same for within the [56:31] Jewish community. This is taught by um [56:34] you know it's often being taught by [56:35] rabbis in these synagogues or it's being [56:37] taught by educational directors in these [56:39] synagogues. Um you know this isn't you [56:41] know me you know making a a video for [56:43] your class or something like that. But [56:45] it has become more clear to me by [56:47] through the demand that we're getting [56:49] that we're going to need many more [56:51] versions of this story. So for many [56:53] different audiences. So I really see [56:56] this school version as a starting point, [56:58] not an ending point. [56:59] >> So I see this um expanding into many [57:02] different sectors. Um ultimately, you [57:05] know, like our wish list is, you know, [57:07] we want to create a version of this [57:09] that's going to be for [57:11] >> adults, for example, like interfaith [57:13] groups, right? I've already gotten a lot [57:14] of demand for interfaith groups. I've [57:15] gotten a lot of demand for people doing [57:17] this in, you know, um, [57:20] you know, uh, students, you know, people [57:22] like, you know, people are Jewish [57:23] student union in the high school who are [57:25] like, well, my school might not do this, [57:26] but we'd love to just do this for our [57:28] Jewish student union, right? To make a [57:30] version like that that a teenager can be [57:32] take the weed on. Um, there'll have to [57:33] be a direct to consumer version because [57:35] I, you know, many people have said, you [57:37] know, like, I want to take this class. [57:38] I'm like, okay, well, right now you [57:40] can't, but maybe a version like that, a [57:42] version that's suited for social media. [57:44] Um, you know, maybe like I've even had [57:46] people approach me about, you know, can [57:48] we turn this into a video game? Um, I [57:50] mean, there's a lot. I mean, cuz you [57:51] know, that's where most if you really [57:52] want to reach people, that's, you know, [57:54] if you want to reach young people, [57:55] that's where you reach. So, yeah, [57:56] there's a lot. [57:56] >> Be careful with that. [57:57] >> Well, okay. Yeah. Well, you got to be [57:58] careful. You have to be careful with all [58:00] of these things. That's why we don't [58:01] just um to be clear to your listeners [58:03] like this isn't something where like, [58:05] oh, here's my lesson plan. It's posted [58:06] on my website. No, people need to be [58:08] trained. [58:09] >> Even Jewish educators need to be [58:11] trained. I mean, it was amazing. I was [58:13] speaking about this at a conference for [58:15] rabbis. Um, and I was training rabbis [58:18] and teaching this curriculum and I [58:21] remember there was one point it was it [58:23] was like a 90-second video that I shared [58:25] that's part of the curriculum. I don't [58:26] know if I don't even know if it still [58:27] is. We've iterated this so many times, [58:28] but it's a 90-second video about [58:31] anti-ionism in Poland in 1968 and how [58:34] the Polish government announced we are [58:36] not anti-semitic. You know, we loathe [58:38] anti-semit [58:40] we loathe anti-semitism. We will fight [58:42] anti-semitism tooth and nail. And at the [58:45] same time, we are also fighting Zionism. [58:47] We will fight Zionism to the death. We [58:49] are not anti-semitic. We are [58:51] anti-ionist. And how this destroyed the [58:53] Jewish community in Poland? It was like [58:55] 50,000 Polish Jews lost their jobs. I [58:57] mean, how many Jews even are there in [58:58] Poland in 1968 after the Holocaust? [59:01] They're pushed out of public life [59:02] completely. Completely. It's a 90-second [59:05] video. I screen this video for rabbis. [59:09] They're sitting there stunned and one [59:11] rabbi raises her hand and says what a [59:14] lot of them are thinking which is I'm a [59:17] rabbi why didn't I know about this [59:19] >> right [59:19] >> so yeah people need to be trained to [59:21] understand this story [59:22] >> and education is so often the the [59:25] solution right a very key solution [59:27] >> it's a piece I will say yes yes I also [59:31] just want to ask you and we're going to [59:32] we're going to wrap up um soon but I [59:35] you've just been as if you're busy not [59:37] busy enough you've just been appointed [59:38] vice chair of the commission to [59:40] determine whether the Whitesman National [59:42] Museum of American Jewish History will [59:44] become part of the Smithsonian. [59:46] >> Yes. [59:46] >> Now, this is a museum that actually is [59:48] in my hometown, so I'm very familiar [59:50] with it. Philadelphia. Yes. Thank you. [59:54] >> First of all, it seems like the members [59:56] of the commission like it's probably a [59:58] fairly unanimous position that the [60:00] answer is yes. And I guess the question [60:01] is like what's the likelihood that it'll [60:03] actually happen? And more importantly, [60:06] how will this contribute to telling the [60:08] Jewish story which obviously you think [60:10] is needs to be told much more? We all [60:12] think it needs to be told much more. [60:14] >> Yes. I mean, so I was appointed by [60:16] Congress to participate in this um in [60:19] this commission. It actually was quite [60:20] moving. We had our first meeting um [60:22] earlier this week and uh all of us were [60:25] sworn in by um the two Pennsylvania [60:28] senators by John Fedman and Dave [60:29] McCormack. Um, so it was actually this [60:32] kind of moving moment where we all take [60:34] the oath of office to participate in [60:36] this commission and to defend the [60:37] constitution and you know I I had never [60:39] had that experience before. It was [60:41] actually quite moving um to serve my [60:43] country in that way. Um yeah this is a [60:47] commission to explore whether you know [60:49] and to and to give a recommendation on [60:51] whether the Whitesman Museum should [60:53] become uh uh part of the Smithsonian. Um [60:57] it's not a foregone conclusion. I mean [60:59] that's why we have a commission. Um it [61:01] is a bipartisan commission which is you [61:04] know very rare in American life these [61:06] days. Um but it is absolutely I mean [61:08] there's like you know to give some [61:10] examples I mean there's uh Kathy Manning [61:13] who's a former Democratic uh um [61:15] congresswoman from North Carolina is on [61:17] the committee. Um Tvy Troy who's a you [61:20] know politically conservative uh [61:21] presidential historian is on this [61:23] commission. And so I mean it's like you [61:24] know this is actually um a group of [61:25] people from a lot of different uh [61:27] political viewpoints um [61:30] >> but all very strongly Jewishly connected [61:32] and background. [61:34] >> Absolutely. Yes. People who are very [61:35] invested in in the in the future of the [61:37] American Jewish community [61:39] >> and [61:40] you know to me this was important [61:43] because [61:44] the Whitesman is an example of an [61:47] institution that is educating the public [61:49] about Jewish life. [61:52] you know, it's doing it from a, you [61:53] know, a perspective of American Jewish [61:56] life. Um, it's te it's the only museum [61:58] that's telling the story of American [62:01] Jewish history in its entirety. Um, [62:03] it's, um, you know, at an inflection [62:06] point right now. They have a new CEO, [62:08] um, as of the past year or so, um, who's [62:10] really reimagining the kind of stories [62:12] the museum needs to be telling. [62:14] >> Um, [62:15] >> it just seemed to me like a really [62:17] amazing opportunity to elevate the story [62:19] of American Jews. Um, so you know I [62:23] can't you know can't say where I mean a [62:25] lot of the commission's work is [62:27] >> kind of nitty-gritty things like you [62:29] know evaluating the collections of the [62:31] museum you know how many objects do they [62:33] have how much overlap is that with what [62:35] the Smithsonian institutions already own [62:37] financial feasibility you know there's a [62:39] lot of things like that um that we're [62:41] going to be digging into um but I just [62:44] it seemed to me like you know and [62:46] obviously also there's you know it's you [62:48] know Smithsonian is you know respect [62:50] ffected American institution. Um, [62:54] you know, but we're living in a [62:55] polarized political climate where, you [62:57] know, federal institutions are, uh, you [62:59] know, people have very strong opinions [63:01] about them. Um, to me, it just seemed [63:04] like an opportunity to elevate this sort [63:07] of really amazing story about, you know, [63:10] the role of Jewish life and civilization [63:13] in the history of America. [63:16] >> And we've been doing that a lot in the [63:17] 250 year, right? [63:19] >> Yes. I want to end asking you how you [63:23] are grappling with dealing with these [63:25] issues, talking about these issues, [63:27] writing about these issues. They're very [63:28] hard issues. You have hope and you have [63:31] ideas about how to at least address [63:33] them, if not solve them. [63:36] >> What gives you hope as you go around the [63:38] country, you talk to various audiences. [63:41] What gives you hope even after writing [63:44] such a difficult book? So I see I have [63:48] this front row seat to yeah like what I [63:51] would frankly describe as a dumpster [63:52] fire of this problem that we all have [63:55] been living in for the past few years. I [63:57] was living in that dumpster fire before [63:58] a lot of other people were um because I [64:01] had this exposure to it, you know, well [64:03] before October 7th. [64:06] I also have a front row seat to all the [64:09] possibilities. [64:11] I get to meet people that most people [64:14] don't get to meet. Um I'm going to give [64:17] a couple of examples um from this [64:19] summer. I met this summer. Um I spoke I [64:22] had the opportunity this summer to [64:24] participate in a conference from a group [64:26] called AMW. It's an American Muslim uh [64:29] multiffaith women's empowerment council. [64:31] >> Familiar with that? [64:32] >> Yes. And um you know this is a truly [64:34] heroic organization. They're Muslim [64:36] American leaders who are against [64:38] Islamist regimes. um and [64:42] you know to meet these Muslim American [64:43] leaders who are you know going on you [64:45] know taking trips to Israel for their [64:47] leadership um you know finding you know [64:51] working with Jewish communities um you [64:53] know pushing back against these [64:55] tyrannical regimes that frankly have [64:57] been persecuting their community. I mean [65:00] it's funny when I told them about uh you [65:02] know this problem with you know how [65:05] Wikipedia had been you know poisoned and [65:08] um Anil Ali who's the leader of that [65:11] group said yeah you know they wiped us [65:13] they wiped us off of Wikiped Wikipedia [65:15] back in 2014. [laughter] So I mean we're [65:17] all sort of fighting the same battle [65:19] against tyrannical regimes. Um but you [65:22] know with these are enormously [65:24] courageous people. Um, I've met people [65:27] in the, you know, Christian community [65:30] pushing back against, um, you know, this [65:33] sort of like right-wing version of this [65:36] problem. You know, there's, um, there's [65:38] a group called Generation Zion. Um this [65:41] was created by this evangelical pastor [65:43] which is to um to promote um young [65:48] Christian Zionists to leadership pos uh [65:51] leadership positions at universities um [65:53] and to sort of basically to push out and [65:56] to um you know to to counter the [65:58] influence of you know what the internet [66:00] calls gropers right the sort of like you [66:02] know uh racist anti-semitic wing of that [66:05] that is sort of has gained ground among [66:07] young people in those communities. Um, [66:10] you know, I met these people uh again at [66:12] a different conference. I met so many of [66:14] these students. I mean, these are people [66:16] they have a t-shirt that they wear that [66:17] says Jesus is a Zionist. Um, I mean, you [66:20] know, this is not the kind of thing [66:21] that, you know, most American Jews [66:23] encounter, but I get to meet these [66:24] people. Um, I had the privilege of [66:27] meeting a woman, Ellis Enderitu. She's [66:29] the former under secretary of the UN who [66:31] was essentially pushed out of her [66:32] position for pointing out that Hamas had [66:35] massacred people in Israel. I mean quite [66:37] frankly um she's a Kenyan politician. Um [66:41] I've I've she has pointed out to me how [66:45] many friends the Jewish people have [66:47] around the world. I mean she's like you [66:50] know a lot of subsah a lot of subsaharan [66:53] Africans [66:55] are on team Israel essentially. Um you [66:58] know she says you know in Kenya she's [67:00] like you know this is where the the jets [67:03] landed for the Antbi rescue. you know, [67:06] she's like, "Because I'm Kenyan is why I [67:08] am, you know, on the side of the Jewish [67:11] people." Um, and she says that's true [67:13] actually for a lot of people in Subtower [67:14] in Africa. Um, especially because [67:16] they're dealing with the same problem in [67:18] terms of, you know, these um, Islamist [67:20] terror groups that have attacked their [67:22] communities. I mean, that's huge problem [67:24] in a lot of African countries. So, you [67:27] know, there are a lot of So, I get to so [67:29] and and I also, as I said, I get to meet [67:31] people who are working on these [67:32] problems. I get to meet people in the [67:33] tech sector who are pushing back on [67:35] these problems. I get to meet people in [67:37] education who are pushing back on these [67:39] problems. I mean, there are I I have [67:42] great news for your listeners from my [67:43] travels around uh around America. [67:47] There's so much more ignorance than [67:49] malice out there and that is a huge [67:50] opportunity. [67:53] I truly I I truly can tell people that [67:55] this is winnable. [67:58] What it what it's going to take is [67:59] courage. [68:01] Well, that's a very important note to [68:03] end on. So, Dara, I thank you so much [68:06] for being here and sharing these ideas [68:09] and your experiences and your hope and [68:12] your wisdom. And thank you. [68:14] >> Thank you for having me. [68:16] >> Before we go, I want to remind everyone [68:19] that you can find this and other Hadasa [68:21] Magazine Presents episodes on YouTube, [68:24] Apple, and Spotify. Please be sure to [68:26] follow us, spread the word, and leave a [68:29] review so you can help us boost our [68:30] audience. You can also go to [68:33] hada.org/mpodcasts [68:36] to sign up for alerts when new episodes [68:38] drop. A note on some upcoming [68:41] programming. On November 2nd, I will be [68:44] back at the Miami Bookf Fair recording a [68:46] live podcast episode with two leading [68:48] Israeli authors, Noah Yedlin and Zoya [68:52] Shalev, who have new books coming out. [68:54] For those of you in the Miami area, come [68:56] and join us in person. You can find more [68:59] information at the Miami Bookf Fair [69:01] website. And save the date of December [69:03] 17th when you'll be able to join us live [69:06] for our next virtual program which will [69:08] focus on the southern Jewish experience [69:10] with Nicholas Lemon whose new book [69:12] Returning has met critical acclaim and [69:15] with Sher Rabine whose book The Jewish [69:18] South was a national Jewish book award [69:20] finalist. A shout out to Ariel Kaplan, [69:23] the magazine's digital editor, who [69:25] produced and promoted this podcast [69:27] episode, and to Leah Finkelstein, our [69:29] senior and book editor, who helped plan [69:32] and organizing it. A special thanks to [69:34] Ellie Hersko, Hadasa's multimedia guru, [69:38] who is behind the camera today at our [69:40] new recording studio, and to Adiola [69:42] Saul, Hadasa's marketing project [69:44] manager, who devoted a lot of energy [69:46] into setting up the studio. And thanks [69:49] to all who are watching and listening. [69:51] Until next time, goodbye.
