Transcript [00:01] Good afternoon and welcome to the Middle [00:03] East Forums weekly podcast. My name is [00:05] Lori Rean and on behalf of MEF I want to [00:07] thank you all for your continued support [00:08] of our important work as well as to wish [00:11] those who are celebrating a shinatovva. [00:13] This afternoon I am pleased to introduce [00:15] Lieutenant Colonel Maurice Hirs, an [00:17] international law expert who specializes [00:19] in the prosecution of terrorists, the [00:21] Palestinian Authority, and the law [00:23] applied in Judea and Samaria. Over the [00:25] course of his extensive career, he has [00:27] served in a number of senior positions [00:28] in both the public and private sectors [00:30] and currently serves as the director of [00:32] the initiative for Palestinian Authority [00:35] Accountability at the Jerusalem Center [00:37] for Security and Foreign Affairs and as [00:39] a research fellow with the Israeli [00:41] Institute for Strategic Studies and with [00:44] Israel's Defense and Security Forum. [00:46] Lieutenant Colonel Hirs is joining us [00:48] this afternoon to share his insights on [00:50] the failures of the Oslo Accords, the [00:52] significance of the ongoing PA pay for [00:54] slave payments, PA uh preparations for [00:57] possibly a new massacre, and why [00:58] Palestinians see the October 7th attacks [01:01] as an extraordinary success. Uh Maurice [01:04] will speak for about 15 minutes and then [01:06] we'll turn to audience questions. So, if [01:08] you'd like to ask a question, please [01:09] feel free to use the Q&A function at the [01:11] bottom of your screens to enter your [01:12] submissions, and I'll do my best to get [01:14] to as many of your questions as [01:16] possible. Today's podcast is being [01:18] recorded and will be available for [01:20] future viewing. So, please share the [01:21] link with those in your networks who you [01:22] think would be interested in learning [01:24] more on this very important and timely [01:26] topic. Uh, welcome, Maurice, and thank [01:28] you for joining us this afternoon. I [01:30] hand the floor over to you. [01:32] >> Thank you uh uh so much for having me. [01:34] Thank you to the M Middle East Forum um [01:36] for the opportunity to address um really [01:38] a very very wide and and and substantial [01:41] uh public. Um what I'd like to do is get [01:43] straight into it. 15 minutes isn't a lot [01:45] of time. And and so after the the the [01:48] the cordial shinatova um I would like to [01:51] make the proposition that the Oslo [01:53] Accords have failed. Absolute colossal [01:56] failure. They were signed 30 uh uh three [01:59] years ago with this goal of bringing [02:01] about peace between Israel and the [02:03] Palestinians. There was just one [02:05] problem. The Palestinians never wanted [02:07] peace. They never thought it was about a [02:10] territorial argument. This is about a [02:13] fundamental idealistic religiously [02:16] driven war, a jihad of the Palestinians [02:21] against the very existence of the Jewish [02:24] state. They have said that from the [02:26] start. Yasa Arafat famously in [02:28] Johannesburg um calling the Oslo Accords [02:32] nothing more than audab agreements um [02:35] the the the agreements that that [02:36] Muhammad used in order to to to really [02:40] lay aside the fears of his enemies and [02:43] then attack them um and that is exactly [02:46] what the Palestinian Authority did. That [02:48] is what Yasa Arafat did. Instead of [02:51] bringing about peace, which was meant to [02:53] be the essence of um the Oslo Accords, [02:56] the Palestinians saw the Oslo Accords as [02:59] nothing more than an opportunity to [03:02] implement what they call the plan of [03:04] stages. This is the plan from 1974, the [03:08] PLO plan, which says basically take any [03:11] territory that we are given and then use [03:14] that as a platform to then destroy the [03:18] state of Israel. Um and and they've done [03:20] that exceptionally well. Unfortunately, [03:23] um they came into the territory under [03:26] the opaces of what was meant to be a [03:29] very well-framed e agreement of of [03:32] peace, of conditions, of of really a [03:36] mindset going forward. And yet they've [03:39] turned it into literally a bloodbath. [03:42] Unfortunately, more Israelis have been [03:45] murdered by Palestinians since signing [03:48] these so-called peace agreements than [03:50] ever before. And on the Palestinian [03:53] side, more Palestinians have died as a [03:56] result of Palestinian terrorism than [03:59] ever before. [04:01] And yet [04:03] we are not seeing any movement. We're [04:05] seeing 33 years of these agreements. Um [04:10] we have a little bit of a dissonance in [04:12] the Gaza Strip after the October 7 [04:14] massacre. We say categorically there is [04:17] no more place for the Palestinian [04:19] Authority, for the PLO. And yet in when [04:22] it comes to Judan Samaria, we're [04:24] somewhat hesitant to give up on that um [04:28] on on that entity and say, you know [04:30] what, declare for finally what the [04:34] Palestinians have said for years, that [04:36] the Oslo Accords are dead. Now I want to [04:40] I would like to try and explain the [04:42] death of the Oslo Accords using two [04:44] specific examples. The first is pay for [04:47] slay. What is pay for sllay? Pay for [04:50] slay is the system under which the [04:52] Palestinian Authority pays hundreds of [04:56] millions of shekels every single year in [04:59] rewards to terrorists. Every single year [05:03] they spend almost 7% of their entire [05:06] budget [05:08] on payments, reward payments to [05:10] terrorists. Every terrorist that is [05:12] arrested by Israel gets a payment. I was [05:15] a um for a substantial part of my career [05:18] in the IDF, the head of the prosecution [05:20] for Judea and Samaria. And and you look [05:23] at these terrorists and they say, "We're [05:25] going to jail, but we're going to get [05:27] rich while we're in prison." Because of [05:29] these payments, they don't see even life [05:32] sentences for murders, multiple murders [05:35] as a limitation because all they do is [05:38] kidnap Israelis and then Israel is [05:40] forced to release these mass murderers. [05:43] And so pay for slave really does feed [05:46] this entire system. While I was head of [05:48] the prosecution, we had evidence given [05:50] by statements, testimonies given by [05:52] terrorists. When they're asked, well, [05:54] why did you turn to terrorism? They said [05:56] because of the payments. Palestinian [05:58] media watch, where I also worked um for [06:01] a while, just recently released a video [06:03] of a terrorist saying that without the [06:06] payments to the terrorists, the [06:07] terrorists wouldn't go out and and and [06:09] commit acts of terrorism. I cannot [06:11] understate the importance, the the the [06:14] value for the Palestinians of the pay [06:17] for slave program because it sets the [06:19] scene. And why is it so fundamental in [06:23] that environment of the failure of the [06:25] Oslo Accords? Because the world knows [06:29] about pay for slave. There isn't a [06:31] government in the world that doesn't [06:32] know that the Palestinian Authority has [06:35] an institutional [06:37] entrenched policy of rewarding [06:39] terrorists for murdering Jews [06:42] and they do nothing. Imagine if there [06:45] was a similar program in any other [06:47] country. God forbid if America, if [06:50] Canada were to announce, we have a [06:52] program. If you murder a black person, [06:55] God forbid, I say again, God forbid, we [06:58] will pay you a financial reward. [07:02] And yet, that's what the pay for slay [07:04] is. That's what the Palestinian [07:06] Authority has been doing for years. The [07:08] world looks on and what do they do? the [07:12] Canadian government, the the British [07:14] government. They sanction ministers in [07:17] Israel's government for being fanatics, [07:20] for being a for being outrageously in [07:24] favor of Jewish settlements in our [07:26] 3,500year-old [07:28] ancestral homeland. Did they ever once [07:32] consider sanctioning Mahmud Abbas, the [07:36] father of this entire program toward [07:39] reward terrorists, the dozens of [07:41] different uh bureaucrats who are [07:43] involved in this uh um multi- literally [07:46] a multi-billion dollar program over the [07:49] different years. Um and and no one says [07:52] anything. No one calls them for what [07:54] they are. this is a terrorist [07:56] organization incentivizing uh u murder. [08:00] That's on the one hand. On the other [08:03] hand, [08:04] um you have as part of the Oslo Accords, [08:07] the Palestinian Authority was given um [08:11] permission to set up a civilian police [08:14] force. This civilian police force was [08:16] meant to number no more than 12,000 [08:18] people in Juda and Samaria. 4,000 um u [08:23] um pistols, 4,000 rifles. That is the [08:27] entire Palestinian police force. They [08:30] don't have such great crime rates. And [08:32] yet over the years they've built up a [08:36] 70,000 [08:37] strong 70,000 people. Six and seven [08:41] times the amount of of people they're [08:43] meant to have in their security forces. [08:46] All trained, all holding weapons. [08:49] Tens of thousands more weapons than they [08:52] were ever meant to have. weapons that [08:54] can be fired not only as even rifles, [08:58] not only even as machine guns, but but [09:01] shoulderheld missiles um that that that [09:04] cause anti-tank missiles and and and [09:06] that type of of of weaponry which they [09:09] were never meant to have. They have a [09:11] military training center in Jericho. [09:14] It's literally called the military [09:15] training center. And that's something [09:18] that they were never meant to have. They [09:19] were never meant to have a military. And [09:21] yet the world again looks on and not [09:25] only do they turn a blind eye [09:27] unfortunately [09:29] many of the different actors including [09:32] the United States unfortunately are [09:35] still part of that mechanism of training [09:38] these Palestinian Authority security [09:40] forces the argument is that they are [09:43] there to fight terrorism. Obviously the [09:46] bad news is they have never fought [09:49] terrorism. They have never fought Hamas. [09:52] They have never fought Palestinian [09:53] Islamic Jihad. And they have never [09:55] fought even the the PFLP, the Popular [09:57] Fund for Liberation of Palestine. They [10:00] are unfortunately being trained for one [10:03] mission, I believe, and one mission [10:05] alone. [10:07] And that is to carry out another October [10:09] 7, but on a much wider scale. On October [10:14] 7, the terrorists that traveled the [10:17] furthest distance from Gaza traveled 22 [10:20] kilometers [10:22] around that Gaza Strip area, the Israeli [10:25] civilian population was very and was [10:29] very thin on the ground to start with. [10:31] If you now take a 22 kilometer radius [10:35] around the green line around Judan, [10:37] Samaria and you take into account that [10:39] there is now a force which is 10 times [10:42] the size of that that invaded G from [10:45] Gaza into Israel on October 7. You can [10:49] just imagine the levels of slaughter [10:53] that potentially are going to happen if [10:55] Israel does not act and does not act [10:58] soon. tens of thousands of terrorists [11:01] breaching all of the checkpoints um that [11:04] lead straight into Israel into Israel's [11:07] heartland into areas that are densely [11:10] populated civilian areas with no [11:13] soldiers around to stop the terrorists [11:15] from murdering, kidnapping, raping, [11:18] torturing, all of the things that we saw [11:20] on October 7 happening again. [11:24] And so people ask me, well Maurice, what [11:27] interest would the Palestinian Authority [11:30] um have uh to do such a thing? And so my [11:33] answer is [11:35] are multiple. Firstly, pay for slave. [11:39] What interest do they have for pay for [11:40] slave? It's desperately bad. It promotes [11:43] terrorism. They waste 7% of their budget [11:46] because of the pay for slay. The US [11:49] implemented the Taylor Force Act back in [11:51] 2018. They lost $250 million a year. [11:58] Even the Europeans cut back. They said [12:00] they'll only fund some of the pro [12:02] projects. And and yet the Palestinian [12:05] Authority, we're now talking about 8 [12:07] years down the line just from from from [12:10] US potential US support. They have lost [12:14] over $2 billion in financial support [12:18] that they could have had. All they had [12:19] to do was stop paying terrorists. And [12:22] yet Mahmud Abbas says, "If I have one [12:25] last penny in the coffers, I'll pay it [12:27] to terrorists." Because their belief is [12:30] that you have to destroy Israel. You [12:32] have to promote terrorism. The more dead [12:35] Jews, the better it is. The closer they [12:37] are to achieving their goal and then [12:41] they have this force that they've built [12:42] up. And then they look at October 7. [12:46] Was October 7 a disaster for the [12:48] Palestinians or what I believe they that [12:52] they think as seeing the October 7 as an [12:55] extraordinary success? [12:58] Not not a simple success, an [13:00] extraordinary success. Why? Since [13:04] October 7, what has happened? A tens of [13:08] thousands of Palestinians have been [13:09] killed by Israel. They have no value for [13:12] human life. Most of the people killed, [13:14] despite uh um um the the the liels and [13:18] and despite the disinformation, most of [13:21] those killed are terrorists. [13:24] Dead Palestinians for them are [13:26] wonderful. They can show their pictures [13:28] around the world to vilify Israel. Since [13:32] October 7, the international court, [13:35] criminal court has opened criminal [13:37] proceedings against Israel, arrest [13:40] warrants against Prime Minister [13:41] Netanyahu. tremendous success. Since [13:45] October 7, the UN has adopted decision [13:49] after decision after decision condemning [13:51] Israel. Report after report, hundreds of [13:54] millions of dollars have been spent [13:56] vilifying Israel. [13:59] All successes for the Palestinian [14:00] Authority. How many times did and did [14:04] those same UN organizations criticize [14:06] Kamas? Did any do any of you know and [14:10] understand really the the depravity of [14:12] the UN that to this day does not define [14:16] kamas as a terrorist organization [14:19] success again. And then you have this [14:22] diplomatic political onslaught. Canada, [14:26] France, the UK all recognizing the [14:29] non-existent state of Palestine. So when [14:32] you look at this situation from a [14:34] Palestinian point of view, success after [14:37] success after success after success, now [14:40] you have even the useless idiots in [14:43] England um who have decided to impose [14:46] sanctions together with other countries [14:48] on on on on the Jewish settlements and [14:50] the product from the Jewish uh [14:52] settlements in Judan, Samaria. What are [14:54] they really saying to the Palestinians? [14:57] Here's another success on the way, [14:59] another reward for the October 7 [15:02] massacre. And unfortunately, what the [15:05] international community has taught the [15:07] Palestinians is that it doesn't matter [15:10] how despicably they act. They can [15:13] literally incentivize and reward people [15:16] for murdering Jews. The world will say [15:18] nothing. They can murder 1,200 people [15:23] and massacre, rape, torture, kidnap. [15:27] There is no vilification of the [15:28] Palestinian Authority for its years of [15:31] indoctrination, its education program [15:34] that teaches these people to murder, [15:37] that teaches mothers that it's a good [15:39] thing that your children have been [15:41] killed, martyed for the cause of [15:44] destroying Israel. [15:46] and everybody turns a blind eye. Who do [15:50] they vilify? They vilify the Jews. That [15:53] is the message that the international [15:55] community has given to the Palestinian [15:58] leadership over and over and again under [16:01] this umbrella of let's perpetuate the [16:05] Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords never [16:07] talked about a two-state solution. And [16:09] there is no two-state solution. There's [16:12] only a two-state delusion because the [16:14] Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian [16:16] leadership does not want any type of [16:20] peace or coexistence with Israel. They [16:23] want Israel's destruction. They believe [16:25] that their first step to Israel's [16:27] destruction would be to create what they [16:30] envisage as the embodiment of really [16:33] Nazi ideology, creating a yuden fry [16:37] state of Palestine, which they would [16:39] then use their terror army to attack [16:42] Israel to murder more Israeli citizens [16:45] and again gain that political advantage [16:49] in the international arenas. This is why [16:52] the Oslo Accords need to be recognized [16:55] for what they were, a death trap, a [16:58] death trap for Israel, a death trap for [17:01] the Palestinians. And the sooner that we [17:04] actually declare the death of the Oslo [17:07] Accords, the better it will be for [17:09] Israel and also the better it will be [17:12] for the Palestinian people. [17:16] >> Thank you so much, Maurice. That was um [17:18] a very informative, very powerful uh 15 [17:21] minutes of lots of information that you [17:23] packed in there. And I hope that [17:25] everybody follows your work on uh on X [17:27] all the social media, but also at [17:29] jcfa.org [17:31] where you've written a number of amazing [17:33] articles and essays and and provided [17:35] reports with lots of information. Um I I [17:38] I'm going to take the liberty of asking [17:39] the first question as the moderator and [17:42] um in just prior to 107 there was a lot [17:45] of analysis surrounding the failure of [17:47] the accords on the 30th anniversary [17:49] which was uh September 13th 2023 again [17:52] just before 107 and at one of the 30th [17:55] anniversary events was a conference in [17:56] Israel that was sponsored by the Israel [17:58] Defense and Security Forum, the [18:00] Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and [18:02] the Israel Victory Project which is a [18:04] project of the Middle East forum. Um [18:06] there were a lot of brilliant insights [18:08] that were shared during that conference. [18:10] Amamira Vivi noted that one of the [18:12] biggest failures was choosing to do [18:13] business with the murderous terror [18:15] organization like the PLO. Uh Julie [18:18] Edelstein concluded that the Gaza [18:20] withdrawal didn't work out because you [18:22] can't run away from reality. Um Avidi [18:25] stated, I'm going to quote him, "There [18:27] is no real prospect at the moment of any [18:29] kind of peace, especially because [18:30] Makmoud Abbas is the same Abbas who was [18:33] a terrorist long ago. He doesn't really [18:35] want to be remembered as someone who [18:37] actually made peace. So, we'll have to [18:39] wait until the day after Abbas. So, my [18:41] question to you, Maurice, now we have [18:43] this free Marwan Bargoodi movement as if [18:46] he's some innocent Palestinian leader um [18:48] rather than the cold-blooded murderer [18:50] terrorist that he actually is. What are [18:53] your thoughts on what happens post [18:54] Abbas? [18:56] >> So, I unfortunately I don't see any type [18:59] of change uh um in the winds in the [19:01] Palestinian Authority. There are the [19:03] different uh um the different people who [19:05] are trying to claim his throne cl trying [19:08] to claim that they would inherit him. [19:10] Mahmud Abbas actually tapped um his now [19:13] deputy in the PLO [19:16] to be the next person who would be the [19:19] president of the of the of what he calls [19:20] the state of Palestine. So who is [19:22] Hussein? Hussein according to a judgment [19:25] of the of of the the Jerusalem district [19:28] court in 2001 suicide bombers came into [19:31] his office. They were brought in by [19:33] other people. He was then the head of [19:35] fatak in in Judan Samaria. They came [19:37] into his office just to as as really as [19:41] a as part of their send off mission. Um, [19:44] Sen apparently reached into his drawer, [19:48] drew out a number of hand grenades and a [19:50] and and and a wad of cash, gave it to [19:53] the suicide bombers and said, "Just make [19:55] sure that you do the job properly." This [19:58] is the next guy coming along. He is not [20:01] a moderate. He is just another terrorist [20:03] in a suit. He believes in exactly the [20:06] same positions as Mahmud Abbas. He [20:09] believes in the destruction of the state [20:11] of Israel. And unfortunately he's also [20:14] being pushed further and further into a [20:17] corner by the international community by [20:20] the UN that says the UNRA and the rights [20:23] of the Palestinian Palestine refugees [20:25] are inaliable and can never be [20:27] negotiated away by the Brits who want to [20:30] impose sanctions and support the [20:33] creation of a Uden fry state. All of [20:35] these things do not support the idea of [20:39] a pragmatic or a flexible leader after [20:43] Mahmud Abbas. If you have people like [20:45] Jiu Rajub um who's also one of these [20:48] potential candidates who has um who on [20:51] television has said, "I support [20:54] murdering Jews, but we need to do it [20:56] carefully. You can't blow up a boss a [20:58] bus in Tel Aviv, but if you kill [21:00] settlers in Jerusalem, then that's okay. [21:04] He's not going to change. He's on a [21:06] record of saying that if he had a [21:08] nuclear weapon, he would have used it on [21:10] Israel. He's no change, is he? Majid [21:14] Faraj, the head of the security forces, [21:16] he's no change either. Mahmud Abbasa's [21:18] right-hand man. People are talking a lot [21:20] about Marwan Barguti serving five life [21:23] sentences. He was the he was the he was [21:26] the life and soul of the second uh and [21:30] of what they call the second nint [21:32] inifada really that terror that wave of [21:34] terror. He started the alakamata [21:36] brigades. He was the one who who really [21:39] armed the terrorists. It was fat who led [21:41] that terror wave. No kamas kamas joined [21:44] afterwards and it was all under the push [21:46] of Marwan Bargoti. You're talking people [21:49] talk about Muhammad Daklan coming back [21:52] from the the United Arab Emirates. Let's [21:55] not forget Muhammad Daklan was a [21:57] terrorist in Gaza implicated in a number [22:01] of bus bombings in which Jews were [22:03] murdered as well. Unfortunately appears [22:06] that in order to be a terror a a leader [22:09] of the Palestinians, you need to be a [22:12] terrorist who murdered Jews. that does [22:15] not give itself or lend itself in any [22:17] way to flexibility, pragmatism, or any [22:21] hope of a change. It lends itself only [22:24] to the same uh death and destruction [22:26] that we've seen under the Oslo Accords [22:28] until now. [22:30] >> That's honest but very discouraging [22:33] response. It's what I expected, but very [22:35] very discouraging. Um, Maurice, someone [22:38] is asking um, why does Israel allow pay [22:40] to slay to continue and can bank [22:42] accounts be seized or payments [22:44] disallowed? And, and I would just take [22:46] that a little further and ask you if [22:48] there's a way for Israel to finally put [22:50] an end to the practice and in particular [22:53] um, can you touch on one of the [22:55] conclusions in one of in a report that [22:58] you wrote that was um, entitled, did the [23:00] PA's pay for slave policy facilitate the [23:02] October 7th massacre? you you had a lot [23:05] of conclusions in there, but one of them [23:06] noted that um numerous terrorists [23:08] released under the 2011 Shalit prisoner [23:11] exchange resumed terrorist activity [23:13] activity shortly after their release. So [23:15] given that knowledge, why does Israel [23:17] continue to engage in these prisoner [23:19] swaps um which only appear to lead to [23:21] more Israeli bloodshed? So you've got [23:23] this pay to slay that they haven't been [23:24] able to stop and then [23:27] >> you know on the other hand they're [23:28] engaging in prisoner swaps that seem to [23:30] encourage it. So what are your thoughts [23:32] on all of that? I on pay for say I [23:34] believe that there is very much more [23:36] that Israel could be doing and should be [23:38] doing um but unfortunately isn't doing [23:43] whether it be from from from many years [23:45] ago just stopping the transfer of u um [23:48] the taxes that Israel agreed to collect [23:50] and pass on to the Palestinian Authority [23:52] as part of the Oslo Accords that should [23:54] have stopped entirely until they gave up [23:58] um um paying and rewarding terrorists [24:00] for murdering Jews. Um, Israel did take [24:03] steps in 2018 with a law that punishes [24:06] the Palestinian Authority by deducting [24:09] the amount that they paid to terrorists [24:11] in in the prior year from the the the [24:13] next year's income. It was a step [24:15] forward, but it wasn't sufficient. I [24:18] believe there are m many more steps that [24:21] could be taken uh um and and and really [24:24] should be taken by Israel in order to [24:27] stop those payments. Um, I believe that [24:30] uh um there are tactical steps. For [24:32] example, the payments are made uh um [24:34] through standalone ATM machines um that [24:38] aren't connected to the Palestinian [24:40] banking system. And I believe that with [24:42] a little bit of effort, the IDF could [24:45] map out where those um ATMs are. And [24:48] when the Palestinian Authority announces [24:50] that the money has been deposited into [24:52] them, ready for the terrorists to take [24:54] the to draw them out, we could go in and [24:57] seize those ATMs. Uh um and in one night [25:00] we would uh uh um seize 50 million [25:03] checker worth of terror award payments [25:06] and the PA would have a tremendous pos [25:08] um problem. Then moving forward, [25:10] unfortunately you have constant [25:12] interference from different actors um [25:16] always uh um warning of the collapse of [25:18] the Palestinian economy, the collapse of [25:22] the Palestinian banking system. Let it [25:24] collapse. There should never be a system [25:27] in which Jews are the subject of a [25:31] reward on their head. every every Jew [25:33] walking around and every person even [25:35] perceived to be a Jew. Taylor Force, the [25:38] the the the law that passed in in [25:40] America in 2018, Taylor Force wasn't [25:43] Jewish. Taylor Force um was a US um West [25:48] Point graduate, served in Iraq in [25:51] Afghanistan. He was just walking down [25:53] the prominade in Jaffa when a [25:55] Palestinian terrorist perceived him to [25:58] be Jewish and murdered him. that is [26:01] something which cannot be uh accepted [26:03] and so much more could be done uh um uh [26:06] in in Israel within the the payments are [26:09] also made to uh Israeli Arabs who have [26:12] participated in terror and a little bit [26:14] more has been uh done there as well. Um [26:18] unfortunately this whole system fueled [26:20] itself and and really did lead to [26:22] October 7 [26:24] that the the as pay for slay um the [26:29] there there are three distinct parts of [26:30] pay for slay. One is paying uh um [26:34] allowances to the families of dead [26:36] terrorists and to injured terrorists. [26:37] Put that aside. Then there's payments to [26:40] reward payments to terrorists while they [26:42] are in prison. And then there's the [26:44] complimentary step of payments to [26:47] terrorists who have been released. Part [26:49] of that system says that if you were in [26:51] prison for 10 years or more, you [26:54] basically get a pension for life based [26:57] on and the calculation of the the value [27:00] of the of the pension is based on how [27:02] much time you spent in prison. And that [27:04] you get without any conditions. You [27:07] don't have to work. In fact, the law [27:09] says that all you have to do is if you [27:11] are called to work, then you have to [27:13] come. Yikoir, [27:16] the architect of the October 7 massacre [27:19] was a recipient of those payments for [27:22] many years. Many, many other terrorists [27:25] released in the Shalit deal were [27:27] recipients of those payments. while they [27:29] were planning and executing the October [27:32] 7 massacre, they were on the payroll as [27:36] employees of the Palestinian Authority. [27:39] That's why I believe that the [27:41] Palestinian Authority also bears [27:44] responsibility for those payments. Uh um [27:47] the the the second part of your question [27:49] is is really the the the disaster uh um [27:53] that that that we keep on playing into. [27:56] Part of the October 7 massacre was a [27:59] specific goal to kidnap as many Israelis [28:02] as possible because Israel has allowed [28:05] the terrorist organizations to to fall [28:07] into that understanding that it doesn't [28:10] matter how many people um are convicted [28:12] of murder. If you kidnap Israelis, we [28:15] will always release more people. It [28:17] started back in 1970. Uh um when when we [28:21] released one terrorist for one hostage, [28:24] it then grew in 1985 to 1,185 [28:29] terrorists who then were the backbone of [28:32] the first inifada in return for six [28:36] Israeli soldiers. It then grew through [28:38] the Oslo Accords. thousands and [28:41] thousands of these terrorists who were [28:43] released and obviously culminating with [28:46] um the the the Shalit deal uh um 1,027 [28:50] people including Yik Sar and many other [28:54] participants in the in the October 7 [28:56] massacre being released in return for [28:58] one soldier. Again, there there was more [29:01] that could have been done, but [29:02] unfortunately, Israel's security and [29:05] legal system together absolutely [29:08] prevented Israel from taking more steps [29:11] going forward. I uh uh spent some time [29:13] trying to help the Golden family back in [29:15] 2020 uh um develop a plan as to how to [29:19] put pressure on Kamas to release the [29:22] body of Hadar and of Aron Shaul and his [29:25] Shamashai [29:26] Shamas and and and Aberamistu. How do we [29:30] apply pressure to them? And what I saw [29:32] was that going back 20 years to being a [29:34] prosecutor in the Gaza Strip, we sent [29:37] many of these Gaza strip terrorists um [29:40] to jail for many, many years. They were [29:42] now being released back to Gaza. They [29:45] were the backbone of the Kamas missile [29:48] projects being released back to Gaza. [29:51] And my argument was that we need to hold [29:53] them in extended uh um custody in order [29:58] to use them as bargaining chips to bring [30:01] about the release of Hadar and and and [30:04] and [30:06] Hisham and Aba. Um unfortunately at the [30:09] time um Minister of Defense um Benny [30:12] Gans refused um to implement that [30:15] suggestion claiming legal barriers. [30:19] Obviously on October 7 that that exact [30:22] theory was implemented one to one. [30:26] Suddenly the legal barriers had [30:27] disappeared. But that's an entirely [30:30] different conversation as to the legal [30:32] strangle hold um that the legal [30:35] institution has over Israel's security [30:38] institutions. Uh um uh but again that's [30:41] um outside the the scope of at least [30:44] today's discussion. [30:46] >> Um thank you Maurice. I we're we're sort [30:48] of at the end, but I want to try to get [30:50] in one more um sort of three-part [30:53] question. Someone has asked about um [30:56] [clears throat] how Israel treats Jewish [30:59] um they're using the term hoodlams in uh [31:01] Judea and Samaria. I presume they're [31:03] talking about in the same way um they do [31:05] Palestinian hoodlams. And I'd like to [31:08] sort of take that a step further and ask [31:10] you, you know, when when we talk about [31:12] Judea and Samaria. Um, if you can touch [31:15] on the treatment of what we're seeing a [31:17] lot in the papers these days about [31:19] violence from the quote unquote [31:21] settlers. Um, but there's also, you [31:24] know, there's some people that are [31:25] viewing this expanded construction in [31:26] Judea and Samaria as Israel quietly [31:29] taking the necessary steps that would [31:30] lead to eventual either annexation or at [31:32] least prevent um the formation of of a [31:37] Palestinian state. So, do you see um [31:41] these expanded settlements as something [31:44] that is being um done in a beneficial [31:47] way for for Israel in the long term, [31:49] especially considering demographic [31:50] concerns? Um, and then also, you know, [31:54] when you I just want to have you touch [31:55] on the 70,000 armed security forces. Um, [31:59] and and I'm curious as to whether or not [32:02] Israel is making the same mistake there [32:03] that it made with Hamas and this [32:05] misconception that these security forces [32:08] are going to serve Israel's interests. I [32:10] mean, you have shared that it's it's a [32:12] big concern, but why why is the Israeli [32:14] government allowing this to continue? [32:16] So, we've got sort of a three-part [32:18] question there on Judea and Samaria, if [32:19] you can answer that. Um, so it is my [32:22] belief that that the Jewish people [32:24] should settle in every single part of [32:27] the area to the uh the west of the [32:29] Jordan River. That is our ancestral [32:32] homeland. That is the area that was [32:34] given to the Jewish people as part of [32:37] the the mandate for Palestine back in [32:39] 1922. And nothing has changed from a [32:42] legal point of view since then. Israel [32:45] should be settling more and more and [32:47] more people there. Um the goal should be [32:50] uh certainly to get to a million people [32:53] u um a million Israelis living in Judea [32:55] and Samaria. Uh um certainly by the the [32:58] the end of next year and expanding every [33:01] single settlement um should be the order [33:04] of the day. Um that is what is required [33:08] uh um really of Israel to ensure its [33:10] security. The settlements are an anchor [33:13] for security around them and they are [33:16] and their existence prevents really much [33:19] more expansive Palestinian terrorism. [33:23] That's on the one. On the other hand, [33:26] there's this trope running around the [33:27] world of the settler violence and and [33:30] here you can go on to the uh the website [33:33] of the Jerusalem Center of Security and [33:35] Foreign Affairs and I have already gone [33:37] on record saying that there are let's [33:40] not call them hoodlams. They're exactly [33:42] the same unfortunately as the [33:44] Palestinians. They are terrorists. Some [33:47] of them are violent. They act they they [33:50] they they carry out wantant acts against [33:53] Palestinians for no good cause. We are [33:56] talking about a group of people that at [33:59] its core is maybe 200 300 people. Let's [34:05] even go crazy and and say that it's a [34:08] thousand people out of 750,000 [34:14] law-abiding Israeli citizens who live in [34:17] Juda and Samaria. [34:19] That's the settlers. I am one of them. [34:22] My children are one of them. I live in [34:25] in in a settlement just to to the south [34:27] of of Jerusalem called Def Frat. We are [34:30] not violent. We are law, we are the most [34:33] law-abiding population in Israel. Um, [34:36] according to the statistics of the [34:38] Israeli police and yet this trope of the [34:42] settler violence runs around. It's [34:44] fueled by the UN. It's fueled by all of [34:47] the anti-Israel organizations. It is a [34:50] lie at its essence. Its goal is to [34:53] undermine Israel's very existence. It's [34:57] not about the settlement. That's a lie, [34:59] too. because they consider the settler [35:01] islands to be everything that includes [35:04] Jews from anywhere, never mind where [35:06] they live, going up onto the Temple [35:10] Mount. That is considered settler [35:11] violence. The Jews are invading the [35:15] Temple Mount. It doesn't matter where [35:17] those Jews physically live to be [35:19] designated by the terrorists and their [35:21] supporters, including the UN, as a [35:24] settler. So we Israel needs to do more [35:27] against the Jewish terrorists without [35:29] question. And I feel that we are uh uh [35:32] missing out there and because of our [35:35] inact [35:37] absence of a coordinated and strong [35:41] policy against those terrorists, we are [35:44] losing good friends. When ambassadors [35:47] like ambassador Huckabe needs to call [35:49] out those terrorists, we are losing good [35:52] friends. These people are bad apples. [35:56] They do not represent Israel. They do [35:58] not represent the Israeli population. [36:00] They do not represent the settlers. They [36:02] are called out by myself as a settler, [36:05] as someone who believes that we should [36:07] be settling in the entirety of Judea and [36:10] Samaria, but not with want and violence. [36:13] That is unacceptable. And more needs to [36:15] be done. [36:17] As regards um the the [36:20] Palestinian Authorities terror army, um [36:24] I believe that following the the release [36:27] of of our report two months ago, there [36:30] have now been a number of discussions on [36:32] the subject. Prime Minister Netanyahu [36:34] has mentioned it, Minister of Defense. [36:37] Um Katz has talked about it, the chief [36:39] of staff has talked about it. there is a [36:42] discussion going on and and that has [36:44] been sparked by the report. I I I I [36:48] believe it as a consequence of the [36:50] report uh um that that is now really [36:54] bringing this to the forefront. Um I [36:56] fear that we are still to a great extent [37:00] in the same conception that it was held [37:02] by the government and some of the [37:04] security forces on the 6th of October [37:06] that the PA doesn't have an incentive to [37:09] act. I believe that is fundamentally [37:12] wrong, fundamentally erroneous, and that [37:15] they do have an incentive to act and [37:17] that they will act and that we won't get [37:20] the intelligence warnings that we also [37:23] didn't get for the October 7 massacre. [37:26] And it will be a terrible potential [37:29] massacre. And I believe that we need to [37:31] do more immediately in order to not [37:37] hide that reality, not shy away from [37:40] that reality, but to face it head on [37:44] before [37:46] we face a another massacre. And so [37:49] either we prepare to dismantle that [37:52] force or as I've said before, we start [37:55] preparing graves because the massacre [37:58] will come. [38:00] Well, I I would have loved to have ended [38:02] on a on a positive note. Um, but you [38:06] know, the reality is what it is and [38:07] you're living it. You're living it, [38:09] Maurice. And so, God bless you for for [38:11] doing that. Um, thank you so much for [38:13] being with us this afternoon. Really [38:15] appreciate it and you shared so much [38:16] information. I hope everyone follows [38:17] your your important work. Again, I I've [38:20] seen you on X and I your your articles, [38:22] your reports quite extensive on [38:24] jcfa.org, [38:26] their website. Uh again, thank you for [38:28] all for all you're doing. We hope to [38:30] have you back. There were still some [38:31] questions I didn't get to, but um very [38:34] informative report. So, I'm wishing [38:35] everybody again a shinatva and uh we'll [38:39] see you. We're not going to be with you [38:40] next Monday on Yam Kapoor, but we will [38:42] see you the following Monday. Uh this [38:44] Wednesday, Ashley Perry, Israel Insider [38:46] Wednesday at 3 p.m. Thank you all again. [38:48] >> Thank you very much for having me. [38:50] Be well.
