Transcript [00:01] Rabbi Dr. Shlomo Pill, it's such a privilege and pleasure to be sitting with you here in Jerusalem, [00:06] Israel, at this amazing time. And to think about your amazing work as a professor of [00:11] law in Houston, Texas, your founding of Beis Medrash Nishmas HaTorah, which is [00:16] all about teaching Pnimiyut Hatorah, [Jewish mysticism]. Thank you so much for being here. [00:20] Thank you so much for having me, Benji. It's fantastic. [00:23] It really is exciting. So, a professor that's a mystic. How would you describe Jewish mysticism? [00:30] Wow. Well, I would say I don't think Jewish mysticism is really about esotericism. I don't [00:37] think it's about spooky things. I don't think it's about magic. Really, I like to [00:42] think about it as contrasting materialism with spirituality. You know, there are parts of Torah [00:50] that are about the things we can measure, and the things we can touch, and the things we can [00:55] evaluate in an empirical way. That's the area of halacha, what the Zohar calls gufei Torah, [01:00] the guf, the body of Torah. But there is the neshama of Torah. There is the soul of Torah. [01:06] And you can't measure, you can't touch, you can't quantitatively evaluate the soul of anything. And [01:13] so Jewish mysticism is really about the parts of Judaism and ourselves, and our experience of the [01:20] world, and our relationships with other people and with God that you can't put into numbers, [01:25] you can't put into data, you can't quantify. Even the way you compare it: quantification, [01:30] evaluation, metrics, this is a professor talking. And yet you tapped into this [01:35] other world, which you're describing so beautifully. How were you introduced to it? [01:39] So the truth is I was introduced to it by another one of our interviewees, I think Yaakov Klein. [01:46] Yaakov and I actually went to the same high school together ten years apart. I'm older. And [01:52] much to my great gratitude, he wrote a fantastic book maybe a little over a decade ago called [01:59] The Story of Our Lives, which I encountered at a point in my life where I really needed that story. [02:06] And that kind of opened the door to the world of Jewish mysticism to me, which was a world I was [02:11] not interested in before that. But I read the book [and] I loved the book. I decided I had to learn [02:17] everything quoted in all of the footnotes in the book. And I just went from there. [02:21] So in an ideal world, would all Jews be mystics? I don't think so. In an ideal world, [02:33] I think eventually all Jews will be mystics in the sense of, they will all be attuned to [02:40] spirituality and be able to experience Torah, and God, and themselves, and the world [02:49] at spiritual levels that are deeper than just halacha. But at the same time, I don't think [02:55] that means that everybody is supposed to be a mystic now. Everybody has to come to it at the [03:02] right time for them, when the need is there. As it used to be the case that one of the primary [03:13] qualifications for beginning to learn Kabbala was malei kereito, benigleh uveshas uposkim, [03:21] that your stomach is filled with the regular stuff [of Torah study]. And many used to interpret that [03:28] as meaning you know everything. You've got it all. And that turned into effectively a ban or was part [03:34] of a ban on studying Kabbala because no one knows everything. But really, if you look at the actual [03:41] people who study and practice Jewish mysticism, actual kabbalists, actual practitioners and [03:47] teachers of Pnimiyut HaTorah [inner dimensions of Torah] have written and said malei kereito means [03:53] when you're full. Everyone gets full at different points in the meal. Some people eat more, some [03:58] people eat less, some people like this food, some people like that food. And so every individual [04:02] is going to find at a certain point that malei kereito, that their particular and unique stomach, [04:09] so to speak, has been full of whatever it is that they need and and can get from nigleh, from [04:15] the revealed parts of Torah. And at that point it's time for them to turn to something deeper. [04:20] It’s really interesting, that description, because there are stomachs and there are also [04:26] appetites. And people have different appetites and they also have different capacities in their [04:29] stomachs. And some can adjust it accordingly. You talked about experiencing God and taking [04:35] that in. What is God? When I say the word God, what do you think of? [04:40] I think of yichud. I think of oneness. I think ultimately, in the highest, highest sense, one. [04:49] And it's silly to say more than that, I think. So what is the purpose of the Jewish People? [04:54] I think the purpose of the Jewish People is, as the Torah itself tells us, to be an am segula, a [04:59] nation with a purpose. And that purpose is to be a mamlechet kohanim ve'goy kadosh, a holy nation, [05:07] a distinguished nation, and a nation of kohanim, of priests. That means that it's our job to really [05:15] be the kelim, the vessels, the vehicles, to try and gradually, slowly over the course of history, [05:22] bring a little bit more recognition into the world to other people [05:27] of the reality and the oneness of God. So it's interesting that you use specifically [05:32] the idea of priests who served in the temple. When the temple was destroyed, the way to communicate [05:38] with God sort of went from this priestly service [to a] democratized [system] where [05:43] everyone could pray. From a mystical perspective, how does prayer actually work? [05:49] From a mystical perspective, one approach that I really enjoy is an approach by the Komarno Rabbi, [05:55] who lived in the mid-1800s. His view was that the entire purpose of prayer is to come to a greater [06:01] and greater appreciation of ein od Milvado, that there's nothing else in reality other than God. [06:07] And so the liturgy that we use is a tool by which we can relate parts of our lives and parts of our [06:15] experience of the world around us back to God and appreciate His unity and presence more and more. [06:21] And so what about Torah study? There are many levels of Torah study. [06:28] Part of Torah study is certainly utilitarian. Part of Torah study is we have to study things [06:34] in order to know how to do the things that we're supposed to do and avoid the things [06:38] we're not supposed to do. And at some level, that's an important part of Torah study. [06:44] But it's always very, very critical, I think, to bring Torah study ultimately back to God. [06:52] The kabbalists talk about how the Torah itself is at higher levels of reality [07:00] than maybe the physical Torah of letters on paper that we have now, and rules, and so [07:06] [forth] and all of that – how the Torah itself is kind of the primary expression of God. It's [07:14] identical with the ratzon, the deep, deep will of God, the unconscious or deeply subconscious [07:20] will of God, the thing that just has to be. And so every time we learn, in addition to the utility of [07:26] learning and in addition to the joy that one gets out of learning, particularly and perhaps only [07:32] when they're learning the things that they enjoy and that they connect to, at a metaphysical level, [07:37] every time we do it we are connecting with God itself; that's contained within the Torah. [07:44] And that's true at a metaphysical level, but I'm not a big fan of just leaving things metaphysical, [07:50] and we are connecting with God, so that's enough. One of the principles of Kabbala is [07:54] ein melech be'lo am, that there's no king without a people to recognize the king as king. And you [08:00] could be as royal of a bloodline as you want, but if there's no nation and you're stuck on a [08:06] desert island somewhere, it doesn't really matter that you're the son of a royal. And so likewise, [08:14] when it comes to God, the metaphysics is important in terms of understanding what's happening. But at [08:20] the same time, what's really, really critical is for us to recognize that those metaphysics [08:24] are happening. So it's not just a matter of when I learn Torah I'm connecting with God, [08:28] but I should be consciously aware, I should have kavana, intent, awareness, [08:34] mindfulness, that what is happening while I study Torah is that I am connecting with God, [08:38] and that makes that connection real. Does Jewish mysticism view women [08:42] and men as different or the same? Well, I think that it views men and women [08:49] ultimately at their core, spiritual DNA as the same, just like it views everything else [08:55] in reality at its core, spiritual DNA as the same, because they're all just differentiated [09:02] expressions of the same oneness filtered down onto a physical plane. But within that physical plane, [09:08] of course, there's a difference between men and women. There are physical differences, [09:13] there are psychological differences, emotional differences, et cetera. And those, of course, [09:20] are just generalizations, I would say. So in general, they are different. And that doesn't mean [09:25] that in the particulars there isn’t crossover. One of the principles of Kabbala is always [09:30] duality and the idea that everything is contained within everything. And that means that while in a [09:36] general sense we might make a judgment that this is a table, or that is a chair, or that is a man, [09:42] or that is a woman, or that is female, or that is male, at the same time, there are aspects [09:47] of chairness to a table, perhaps even just in the material that it's made out of, if they're [09:53] both made out of wood. Perhaps in terms of the relationship they have with each other. You put a [09:58] chair at a table. There's an alignment, there's a connection between the two, so there's not a total [10:03] separation and differentiation between them. They serve similar functions in that they're both there [10:08] to help me eat my meal in a respectable way. And I would say likewise for men and women as well. [10:18] So you live in Texas. There are people that have more spiritual lives, some have less [10:22] spiritual lives. In their own self-description, what do you think is the greatest obstacle [10:26] to living a more spiritual life? To me, without a doubt, I think the [10:29] biggest obstacle to living a spiritual life is self-satisfaction, being satisfied with where you [10:35] are, thinking that there's nothing wrong with the way things are. The Arizal, the master of Kabbala, [10:40] who summarized all of Kabbala about 500 years ago and has been the touchstone and source for [10:46] all of Kabbala that has happened ever since, very famously and often said that the way [10:53] growth happens, and particularly spiritual growth, is always out of a sense of lack. If [10:59] you don't have that sense of lack, it becomes [a situation where] there's no emptiness within you [11:04] in order to receive any spirituality and you're too full of yourself and the world that I'm in [11:10] and the universe that I'm in and the life that I'm in; everything is good. And really spirituality [11:16] is about connection with God. God is the thing that's always a little bit beyond what we have. [11:22] If we have it, if we have absorbed it, if we contain it, if we can cognize it, that's not [11:27] God because that's fitting in a human mind or a human experience. And so we have to be open [11:32] to something beyond ourselves in order to have real spiritual growth or access to spirituality. [11:39] So we all operate within this world [with] different levels of satisfaction that [11:42] you described. Why did God create the world? At the most basic, basic level, we have no idea, [11:49] and we can't possibly know. The will of God itself, the essence of God, this is [11:55] unknowable. God itself is unknowable and can't fit into anything we can cognize. And likewise, [12:01] God's will, God's essential ratzon, why God chose to create a world can't fit into something [12:08] that we could fundamentally understand. However, the Arizal does teach that once God [12:13] decides to create a world, for whatever reason, we can now start to explain a little bit about [12:18] why the world functions the way it does and how a world, as we experience it, exists in [12:25] the form that it does. And one of the fundamental things that he teaches is that God creates a world [12:30] in part to create wholeness within God itself, so to speak. God is everything. But God can't, [12:40] so to speak, really express Himself or be fully manifest as everything if those things that He [12:48] is don't exist. So, for example, if God is described as good, and merciful, and kind, [12:54] and sometimes angry, and sometimes vengeful, and judging, and fatherly, and so on and so forth, [13:01] none of those reference, none of those names make any sense or actually can connect back to God, [13:07] and God can't manifest as those things unless there is mercy in the world, unless there is [13:13] anger in the world, unless there's something called fathers and something called judges, and [13:17] so on and so forth. So in a sense, the creation of the world is creating a platform within which [13:24] God can be more complete and more real. What about free will? You spoke about God [13:30] not being able to [become] complete through different areas. Does free will exist? [13:34] It depends how you look at it. I think one of the fundamental teachings of Jewish mysticism [13:39] is perspective and relativity. So the kabbalists and Hasidic masters are constantly speaking about [13:46] dual perspectives. There's our perspective and our experience, and there's God's perspective [13:51] and God's experience. And both of these are very real. From God's perspective, of course, [13:55] there can't be any free will. We are, so to speak, all figments of God's imagination. [14:00] God's knowledge of everything is absolute. And the fact that God knows something or wills something, [14:06] which can't be separate from each other philosophically, that means that that [14:11] thing has to be, and it can't be any other way. However, from our perspective, we do genuinely [14:16] have experiences of free will. Perhaps that free will can fluctuate a little bit. So for example, [14:24] there are things that perhaps I have zero interest in and would never ever consider doing, and from [14:29] some perspective I don't have free will over that thing. But perhaps over the course of my life that [14:35] might change given [certain] experiences, or different behaviors, or different choices that [14:39] I might make. There can be an Overton window, so to speak, of free will and that can shift, [14:44] but that's all from our perspective. But it's important to note that again, [14:49] the kabbalists and the Hasidic masters and Jewish mystics all speak from the perspective of duality. [14:56] The oneness of God is incomprehensible. Once we can start talking about anything, there's always [15:00] only two. This is why the Torah begins with a bet for Bereishit, which is the number two as opposed [15:06] to an alef, the number one. We always begin with two, there's always duality. There's God's [15:12] perspective on things, there's our perspective of things. And our perspective is real. God [15:16] created it to be real for us to experience it as real. And so our free will is real to us. [15:22] Well, so what about Mashiach, the Messianic Era? What does this [15:26] mean from a Jewish mystical perspective? At least some mystics would understand this [15:33] as everything sort of returning to where it came from. Everything began with just God, Ohr Ein Sof, [15:39] the infinite light of God, the infinite will of God filled everything, and encompassed everything, [15:44] and annihilated everything within it. There was nothing outside of God. And the Messianic [15:50] Age is a return to that. Not in the sense that all of this doesn't exist anymore, [15:55] but in the sense that from our perspective, we now experience all of this as godliness. [16:01] So we're all moving towards this Messianic Era. Is the State of Israel [16:06] part of that final redemption? Everything is a part of that final [16:11] redemption. And of course, the State of Israel and everything it has gone through, good and bad, [16:16] accomplishments and failures, is all part of that story and all part of bringing us [16:21] to that final redemption, undoubtedly so. What is the greatest challenge facing [16:26] the world at large today? I think ultimately it's a lack [16:30] of meaning. I think people are afraid of having meaning because meaning entails vulnerability and [16:36] the fact that I might need something beyond where I currently am in order to have that meaning. And [16:41] so we try to distract [ourselves] and avoid facing that reality. But we can't avoid it [16:46] because we all need to be more connected, connected to God, connected to ourselves, [16:51] connected to each other. And that can only be found from a place of vulnerability and [16:58] need. And so our fear of that, our fear of that vulnerability, I think, is the biggest challenge. [17:07] Amazing. One of the times when vulnerability historically happened was around modernity. [17:12] The world changed completely. So, how has Jewish mysticism changed in this time of modernity? [17:18] I think that the rabbis teach us that God always provides us with the medicine before the illness, [17:28] so to speak. And I think this is true with respect to the conditions and challenges of [17:34] modernity and Jewish mysticism's response to it. We were provided with a teacher and an innovator, [17:44] the Baal Shem Tov, who lived in the 1700s, who reframed Jewish mysticism away from discussions of [17:53] the metaphysical and higher worlds and all of that and attempted to bring all of those concepts down [17:59] to explain our human condition. The world in many, many ways wasn't ready for the teachings of the [18:06] Baal Shem Tov at the time. But I think we see now more and more and more over the last eighty years, [18:12] fifty years, thirty years that the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov have become critical, [18:18] critical medicine to deal with precisely that problem of modernity, of fear of vulnerability, [18:26] of self-satisfaction, of an unwillingness to be in touch with ourselves and other people and God. [18:33] So as a professor in university, you're exposed to many different schools of thought. Is there a [18:38] difference, and if so, what is it, between Jewish mysticism and other mysticisms? [18:48] Rabbi Benji, I'll be really honest. I'm not a student of other mysticisms. So I have no idea. [18:54] I think that's a really important answer. And I think that honesty and openness is what Kabbala [18:58] is about, to be mekabel, to receive. We can't all know anything and everything. I think it's [19:02] great to see that. Does someone need to be religious to study Jewish mysticism? [19:07] Certainly not. However, I would say that the Zohar teaches us that as we said before, [19:15] there are different aspects to the Torah just like there are different aspects to the human [19:19] being. There's a soul of Torah, there's a body of Torah. And bodies and souls go together. [19:27] So ultimately, I think that while one can study Jewish mysticism, very, very important vessels, [19:34] and tools, and vehicles for implementing and growing from Jewish mysticism are contained [19:40] within the rituals and practices of Judaism, which the Zohar itself refers to as 613 ideas [19:48] or suggestions, good advice for connecting to God. And so while you can certainly access the [19:57] teachings of Jewish spirituality and mysticism, and that's a good thing, I think it's important [20:04] to remember that there has to be a structure and a framework for containing and channeling that [20:10] into positive growth. And I think Jewish religious life and Jewish observance is naturally wedded to [20:19] that and provides the appropriate vehicle. So you used words like appropriate [20:25] and vehicle. Does that mean Jewish mysticism can be dangerous? [20:29] Certainly it can be dangerous. Certainly can be dangerous. All the way back to the Talmud, [20:35] the Talmud tells us that Jewish mysticism can be dangerous, that entering into mystical spiritual [20:40] spaces, especially higher ones, can really set people off in the wrong direction. And we've [20:46] seen this countless times throughout history. Historically this resulted in a lot of hesitancy [20:51] towards Jewish mysticism. Rabbis banning the study of Jewish mysticism, banning it until you're a [20:57] certain age or you studied certain things, or banning the teaching of Jewish mysticism [21:01] in too large of a group or things like that. There's a lot of fear around Jewish mysticism, and [21:07] it's appropriate. Because it's very easy to think that access to the soul of Torah is an easy way [21:16] to short circuit and circumvent the need to deal with the body. We all want to connect to the soul, [21:22] but you still have to eat dinner, get eight hours of sleep, and put on your clothes in the morning. [21:27] And I think that that's important. So yes, it certainly can be dangerous. Despite the danger, [21:33] however, certainly today it's needed. There's no choice about it. And so – [21:39] It's like you said, it's the medicine. It's the medicine. [21:42] And certain medicines you don't take unless you need it, but – [21:45] Right. This is needed. [21:46] And certain medicines have side effects and risks. But you have to take them. Yeah. [21:51] And has it affected your relationships in any way? In a really personal way, [21:56] with those around you, with yourself? Absolutely. Especially studying Jewish mysticism [22:03] and Kabbala through the lens of the Baal Shem Tov. The Baal Shem Tov tells us that mysticism [22:09] is really just a mapping of human experience, human psychology, and human inner experience. [22:16] Understanding the concepts of Jewish mysticism as taught by the Arizal and in kabbalistic books are [22:22] really just a way, at least in the Baal Shem Tov's approach, of understanding what's going on inside [22:27] of yourself, what's going on inside of other people, and how those two things connect together. [22:35] And again, there can be dangers and this can take you the wrong way. One can study Jewish mysticism, [22:39] fly off into the clouds, and not care about anyone else or themselves. But studied in a healthy way, [22:45] it leaves one much more attuned to oneself and what's going on with [22:48] oneself and [one becomes] more in touch with oneself. [It makes you] much more open and [22:52] receptive to other people and in a much better position to have strong relationships with – [23:02] Can you share an example either for yourself or one relationship you have with a child, or with a [23:07] friend, or a sibling, or a spouse? Is there any example where you've seen it impact your life? [23:18] Sure. I'll give you an example about [my] relationship to [myself]. So I would say [23:23] that certainly from a non-mystical approach, there's a strong tendency often for people, [23:30] especially religious people, observant people, to kind of beat themselves up over their faults, [23:37] over their missteps, over their mistakes, their sins, so to speak. And I would say that Jewish [23:44] mysticism has given me the tools to understand, oftentimes much more, where those are coming [23:51] from. And [it helps me] understand ultimately, at the end of the day, without excusing mistakes, [23:56] and missteps, and faults that have to be addressed and corrected, they all come from one place, [24:03] they all come from God. There's a reason why they're there. And I think it gives me [24:08] at least a way of treating myself and my areas of necessary growth with a lot more compassion [24:15] and a lot less shame and resentment. And we've spoken so much about it, and I [24:21] appreciate you answering all these questions. To end, rather than just speaking about it, [24:24] I'd love you to just share one powerful thought, one short kabbalistic idea, that you're either [24:29] thinking about or that resonates with you that may resonate with those listening today. [24:34] Sure. So as we're sitting and talking, we're in the middle of studying the parasha, the portion [24:41] of the Torah, that discusses the Jews' enslavement in Egypt and their ultimate exodus from Egypt. [24:47] And one of the central characters in this story, of course, is Pharaoh. And Pharaoh is not a nice [24:52] guy, he's a villain. He's one of the villains of the Torah. But I think it's so important to [24:56] appreciate, as we see in the Torah countless times with respect to Pharaoh, Pharaoh is a villain and [25:03] we don't root for him, but he's kind of a little bit of a tragic villain. There are many times [25:08] throughout the story where he wants to do the right thing and God comes along and hardens his [25:13] heart. And so at the end of the day, at least if you have openness and empathy, Pharaoh is a tragic [25:22] villain. We see this so many other times in the Torah with so many other villainous characters. [25:28] The Torah paints them as tragic villains, not as through and through bad villains. And I think that [25:36] one of the messages there, really importantly, is that the Torah is trying to teach us empathy, and [25:43] an appreciation of the other, and an appreciation and an ability to put myself in someone else's [25:49] shoes. And to me that's a spiritual idea that is really, really important and I'm thinking about it [25:57] now in different contexts, but mostly because of the current parasha that we're reading. [26:03] Well, having spent quality time with you over a nice sustained period over a few days, [26:09] I've seen that you're empathetic yourself and I think that's why your Torah resonates so deeply. [26:14] And I just give you a wish to continue to find in your own relationships and everything this depth [26:20] of experience that you can continue to teach, to share with others, and to really lead by example. [26:24] Thank you, Rabbi Benji. Thank you.
