Transcript [00:00] I am no longer into stories about [00:05] somebody who learned a lot, became a [00:07] vehicle, and then made a lot of money. I [00:10] no longer want to be lectured on deton [00:13] from gazillionaires. It doesn't [00:14] resonate. The outrage or any sort of [00:19] anger towards somebody who has more [00:21] money than you is actually you are the [00:24] loser in the ge culture conversation. I [00:27] used to walk into every room and think, [00:29] "Oh, they've got money. They don't have [00:31] money. They do have money. They don't [00:32] have money. I want money. How am I just [00:34] got to get more money?" It's like I [00:35] would like mumble into my breath. And I [00:38] had to do real work to extricate my [00:40] sense of self from money. Would you want [00:43] a different family if they had $5 [00:46] billion and a yacht? Every kid. No. Are [00:50] you crazy? No. I need my mommy and my [00:52] daddy. Five years ago, Rabbi, author, [00:55] podcaster, Jewish thinker, and my good [00:57] friend David Bashkin was a guest on [00:59] Kosher Money, and he gave us a lot to [01:01] think about. Well, he's back. And this [01:03] time, we get into our relationship with [01:05] money. Why does money have such a [01:07] stronghold on us? What are we really [01:10] chasing when it comes to money? And how [01:12] do we build a life where money matters [01:14] without it becoming what matters most? [01:17] We're back with the one, the only David [01:22] Bashkin. Hey, [01:24] >> thank you so much for having me. It is [01:25] genuinely a privilege and pleasure to be [01:28] back on the Kosher Money podcast. Thank [01:29] you for having me. [01:30] >> About 5 years ago, we had an episode. We [01:34] covered quite a few topics. One of the [01:36] items you mentioned was your income and [01:40] your savings. [01:40] >> Oh, right out of the gate. You're [01:42] killing me here. People want to know [01:44] where where we are we holding now. [01:46] >> Are we up? Are we down? [01:47] >> I brought my financial statements [01:49] actually with me. [01:50] >> But your wife wasn't super happy. [01:53] >> Yeah, she was not thrilled, but she [01:55] forgave me. She's okay with it. [01:56] >> Why wasn't she thrilled? [01:58] >> I think that for a lot of people it was [01:59] very it's very jarring to talk about [02:02] money. Money is a very powerful symbol [02:06] that governs our deepest desires. I'm [02:10] sure you've had a thousand1 guests who [02:13] have pointed out the fact that the [02:15] Hebrew word for money kvf is the same [02:18] term for lof which means to desire. So [02:22] when when somebody shares how much money [02:25] they have in savings or whatever it is [02:28] sharing how much money you make your [02:29] salary we our guard immediately goes up. [02:34] And for somebody like myself who really [02:37] tries to distance that part of their [02:38] life from their most essential self, it [02:40] can be very jarring. Like people people [02:44] look whether and and this isn't to [02:46] glorify poverty or to demonize wealth, [02:49] god forbid, but we look at these symbols [02:53] as proxies for who we are. And so when [02:56] you talk about them and you talk about [02:57] them very candidly to almost defang [03:01] them, to take away the stigma from [03:03] conversations about money, especially [03:05] when you talk about your own personal [03:07] money, uh, you know, definitely your [03:09] wife is going to is not going to be [03:10] thrilled right away, right out of the [03:12] gate. But my wife is amazing and she has [03:14] since forgiven me around 15 minutes ago, [03:17] right before I got here. [03:18] >> Everyone's pushing pause to go look how [03:20] much you were making, how much you had [03:21] in savings. I would say it's very [03:24] similar to bodily functions. We all have [03:26] bodies, yet we're all embarrassed. [03:30] >> Yes. [03:31] >> About certain bodily functions and no [03:35] one just stands up on a chair and [03:37] screams, "Guys, we all have to make [03:39] money. It It's okay to talk about." Why [03:42] is that? I I guess number one, what is [03:45] it about money that [03:47] obviously we need it to live, but but [03:49] there's there's there's something to it [03:52] that that draws us towards it. And B, do [03:56] you ever see a world in which we can [03:59] become more comfortable without being [04:02] braggalicious? And and you know there's [04:04] certainly a new addicta aspect a modest [04:07] a modesty component to not revealing for [04:10] the sake of revealing but are we getting [04:14] more comfortable talking about things [04:17] that will be productive yet they're [04:19] uncomfortable? [04:21] I don't know if what's preventing us is [04:24] any sort of stigma. I think what people [04:26] genuinely struggle with is disentangling [04:30] the symbols from their ultimate desire. [04:34] I really liked your analogy about like [04:37] literally like going to the bathroom. I [04:39] I look at the pain of money and [04:43] literally bathroom functions as both two [04:45] sides of the same coin of how we [04:49] literally come to understand our most [04:51] essential self. meaning human beings [04:54] regardless of what religious tradition [04:56] you're a part of. But if you are a [04:58] religious thinker, then you probably [05:02] believe that there is something divine [05:04] or unique or transcendent about the [05:07] human experience. And the way that we [05:10] use that language in the Jewish [05:11] tradition is that the human being is [05:15] kind of wedged in between two worlds. We [05:18] have an essential self, a soul that is [05:21] part of a divine world that craves to [05:24] feel whole, that craves to feel [05:26] purposeful and meaningful. And we are [05:29] also animals. We're also mammals. We [05:32] also go to the bathroom. We also have [05:34] bodily functions, etc., etc. And I think [05:38] the areas which make us feel either [05:42] nontrcendent [05:44] or overly anim animalistic can be really [05:48] really challenging for people and just [05:50] challenging what's your self-conception [05:52] like how do you look at yourself and I [05:54] think any conversation about money is [05:57] really a conversation about desire money [06:01] is a symbol it is a tool [06:04] that allows us to actualize our desires [06:08] and the reason why you see very often [06:11] wealthy people who are miserable though [06:13] I don't I am not at all saying that [06:15] wealth causes misery no wealth can be [06:18] wonderful I know many wealthy people [06:20] they seem not all but they they [06:23] genuinely they have wonderful lives but [06:26] the the insecurities that surround this [06:30] I think challenge our most essential [06:32] self and that money we need to demystify [06:35] our relationship with money. Money is a [06:38] proxy for desire. And you'll never be [06:41] able to use money effectively unless you [06:45] understand how the mechanics of desire [06:48] itself. Think of somebody that has a lot [06:50] of money doesn't spend it. Are you [06:54] saying that for that particular person [06:57] his desire is to feel secure even though [07:01] he's not necessarily spending his money? [07:04] Where does desire play into [07:08] the gathering of money? So there there [07:12] are really two philosophers, but I'll [07:14] just focus on one who have really opened [07:17] up my eyes for how desire works, how [07:19] money works, finances, how it touches on [07:21] our most essential self. There is a a a [07:26] philosopher named Renee Gerard. And [07:29] Renee Gerard has a really profound idea, [07:33] but his most profound idea like don't [07:36] get nervous. It's not a philosopher. [07:38] It's in one sentence and it's the title [07:40] of one of his essays and the title of [07:42] his essay and he really explores [07:44] everything. It's just like why do we [07:46] want what we want? And he has a book I [07:49] think it's really an essay that's [07:50] collected in a book called All Desire is [07:53] a desire for being. All desire is a [07:57] desire for being. When we want [07:59] something, we are trying to address some [08:02] internal lack that we feel. [08:05] All desire emanates from the same [08:08] inherent lack of being alive and the the [08:12] wish, the longing to feel some sort of [08:16] wholeness. The ultimate thing that [08:17] people really want if they were honest [08:19] for themselves is they want to be [08:21] liberated from desire itself. to not [08:24] have to want to not have this cycle of [08:27] lack fulfillment lack fulfillment. So [08:31] depending on how you choose to express [08:33] your desire because you can't really [08:36] address your most essential desire which [08:38] is being which is how you feel in the [08:41] world what it feels like to be alive. So [08:44] instead we play whack-a-ole and we use [08:46] proxies for how we feel that wholeness. [08:50] All of advertising is built on this idea [08:53] which Gerard talks about which is we we [08:56] allow something called formimedic [08:59] desire. That's what this book is [09:00] actually about. This is a book that I [09:02] brought by uh not a personal friend but [09:06] an online acquaintance named Luke [09:07] Burgess and he wrote a book called [09:09] wanting the power of mimemetic desire in [09:12] everyday life. And the reason why I like [09:14] it, and I'm going to explain what that [09:15] means by mimedic desire, [09:18] but the basic idea is that we have to [09:22] learn what we should be desiring. When [09:24] we go out and we we whether we're [09:27] looking at advertisements or we look at [09:29] people who we associate with success, [09:31] with prominence, with importance, [09:33] whatever that most essential lack is, we [09:37] are taught how to desire. We learn how [09:40] to desire. That is through mimedic. [09:43] Mimemetic means to imitate to you know I [09:47] see you doing one thing and I'm like oh [09:48] wow if I did that I wonder if I would [09:51] have the feeling that I associate with [09:53] you. Like I remember there was a period [09:55] it's kind of weighed down but there was [09:57] a period where if you walked in the city [09:59] literally everybody was wearing the same [10:03] blue what was a Patagonia vest like and [10:07] it like it came and went in like a [10:09] pretty quick maybe there's still people [10:10] who are rocking it but like there was a [10:13] period where so h how does how does that [10:16] happen? How does that happen? That is [10:18] mimedic desire. That means there's [10:20] somebody growing up who wants a certain [10:23] form of all desires, desire for being. [10:26] Well, some of you grow up, you want to [10:28] feel whole, you want to feel complete, [10:30] and you're looking at people who you [10:33] learn to associate with completeness and [10:36] you essentially your desire what you [10:40] want become shaped through the filter of [10:44] being my medic imitating. So I see all [10:46] these people in one industry and maybe [10:48] it's in finance for other people it [10:51] might be in media it might be might be [10:54] having a podcast you know for a lot of [10:56] people like that's what they associate [10:58] with importance uh for other people it [11:01] might be certain luxuries I think [11:03] watches are is a very common symbol I [11:06] bought myself a watch when did I b I [11:08] bought this I bought this when I like [11:10] before I got married I called it my my [11:12] nakasen watch I may have shared that [11:14] already but like There there is this [11:17] sense of wanting an object or a person [11:21] and they represent being because all [11:24] desire is a desire for being. So at what [11:28] point does it become a flaw? Is [11:32] everything you just discussed a human [11:34] flaw? Is it our job to combat this or to [11:40] allow some of this desire into our life [11:43] in a in a healthy way? This is genuinely [11:46] like a cosmic question. Meaning it is [11:50] not a flaw that our desire we learn how [11:53] to desire. We learn it through imitating [11:55] others. It's not an inherent flaw. [11:58] Humanity is is flawed. I think I think [12:02] we get into trouble and our desires can [12:05] sometimes be weaponized against us when [12:09] we are constantly pursuing very thin [12:13] elastic desires. Elasticity like price [12:16] elasticity is how much the price is [12:19] going to go up or down based on supplier [12:23] demand. And there are certain like items [12:26] and goods where like it goes very high [12:28] and very low. It's not it's not like a [12:30] need where like there's a much more [12:32] stable pricing, but like if there's a [12:34] lot of demand, it's going to shoot up [12:35] and if there's no demand, it's going to [12:37] hit the floor because it's not [12:38] inherently valuable. So, I look at [12:41] desire in the same way. There are some [12:43] desires that are lifelong that are that [12:48] we almost amortize it over the course of [12:51] our lives. I think that is the desire [12:53] for purpose and eternity. That is the [12:56] desire for feeling that sense of [12:58] stability. And I think honestly, not to [13:02] get uh too uh religious on you right [13:04] now, but there is a kosher uh in your in [13:07] your podcast name. I think a lot of this [13:10] comes from the original origin of [13:13] humanity through the Torah lens of the [13:15] story of of Adam and Kava, Adam and Eve, [13:19] eating from the tree of knowledge. And [13:22] you see a few things happen there. [13:24] Number one, when when Adam is created, [13:27] the first thing that God tells him is [13:30] where what should be the object of your [13:32] desire. Your desire, the object of your [13:35] desire should always be towards family [13:38] and home. That is the ultimate desire [13:41] fulfillment. For a young child, the [13:43] ultimate desire fulfillment is a stable [13:45] family life and a parent. And then as we [13:48] become adults, [13:50] what we want in the language of the [13:51] Torah, the Lu [13:54] to your spouse, to your family life, [13:56] that is where your desire, that should [13:58] be the focus of your desire. [14:01] Somebody who is their number one desire [14:04] is is home, is getting married, is have [14:08] children, is that their children should [14:10] be a certain way, their sp those are the [14:12] holiest forms of desire because that [14:14] that's an eternal desire. That is a [14:16] tried andrue vehicle for long-term [14:19] happiness. There is not that much [14:21] elasticity on that. There will be times [14:23] when more people get married, when less [14:24] people get married, people have more [14:26] children have less children. But the [14:27] idea that my deepest desire is the [14:31] eternal stability of the family unit and [14:33] that's where I I I invest in that. I [14:36] invest my time. I invest my focus in [14:38] that. That is that is the holiest [14:41] desire. And when you figure out your [14:43] desire in the context of family, that's [14:45] also that's a holy desire. That's [14:48] literally why the Torah talks about [14:50] spouses can either be helpers or [14:53] adversaries, right? That uses this [14:55] ambiguous language when when Adam is [14:58] when Adam and Eve are created where it [15:00] says that they're going to be an Azer [15:02] connectdo, a helper against you. And [15:06] what does that mean? It's all an inside [15:09] job in your home. That is where you need [15:12] to be most protective of the ozone rays [15:16] of thin useless desire coming into your [15:21] home. When you have a home that is built [15:23] on a foundation of genuine love and [15:26] support for spouses, for children, for [15:29] parents, for siblings, and then you [15:31] build outwards, that is the healthiest [15:33] form of mimetic desire because you're [15:36] you're really you you really care about [15:38] one another and it's built on that. The [15:41] worst form of mimemetic desire is when [15:43] it's, you know, you're reading a [15:44] magazine. I remember that ad when you [15:46] see like Leonardo DiCaprio like this, [15:49] like in that watch ad and he's looking [15:51] at it and you you don't notice it. It's [15:53] imperceptible. But but what your what [15:56] your soul can sometimes say to you is if [15:59] you had that watch, that same watch, and [16:02] you stood like this, people would look [16:04] at you the way you were looking at [16:06] Leonardo DiCaprio. I think he he advers [16:09] for tagure. I think you see those ads [16:11] all over the place. That is a very [16:13] dangerous form of desire. That is a [16:15] desire that ends [16:18] best case scenario with disappointment, [16:20] worst case scenario [16:22] with tragedy, genuine tragedy. Because [16:25] there are people who pursue that [16:27] wholeness their entire lives, their [16:30] entire all desire is desire for being. [16:32] So they're pursuing it their whole lives [16:34] and then what happens? They they they [16:37] find success. They make a lot of money [16:39] and the emptiness is still completely [16:42] there. That emptiness is there and they [16:44] have all the watches and they have all [16:46] the all of the material objects and they [16:48] don't learn how to train their desire to [16:52] focus on love, on relationship, on [16:55] caring. And I think I think that's a [16:58] mistake. And it's a mistake that I think [17:00] our community is uniquely positioned to [17:04] Aaron to fall into that trap because [17:08] we're a very close-knit community. We're [17:11] ext we imitate each other a lot in our [17:13] mannerisms, in the way we talk, in the [17:16] language that we use that can easily be [17:19] weaponized on us. that that's why I [17:22] think there's a real responsibility for [17:24] for communally if Aric to make sure that [17:28] we surface we highlight and we [17:30] prioritize the right form of culture cuz [17:32] it's so easy for that for the wrong type [17:36] of desire to literally uh destroy a [17:39] person's life. I want to take a minute [17:41] because there are families in Israel in [17:44] dire need of food, shelter, and so much [17:47] more. I want to tell you about an [17:49] organization. You know them. They're [17:51] making a real difference every single [17:53] day. Kabad. We spend a lot of time on [17:55] the show talking about money, how to [17:57] earn it, save it, invest it, and use it [17:58] wisely. But one of the greatest uses of [18:01] money is helping someone who simply [18:03] can't make ends meet. For more than 200 [18:06] years, yes, 200 years, KAB has been [18:09] supporting families across the great [18:11] country of Israel with food, emergency [18:13] financial assistance, critical help. [18:16] We're talking widows, orphans, people [18:17] going through incredibly difficult [18:19] times. They're on the ground. They know [18:21] the families personally many times and [18:23] they work quickly to get help where it's [18:25] needed most. The reality is that there [18:27] are parents who are working hard and [18:28] still struggling to put food on the [18:30] table or cover basic necessities with [18:32] dignity. And that's where your support [18:34] can make an immediate impact. If you're [18:36] in a position to help, whether it's a [18:38] large donation or even a small one, [18:40] every contribution matters. Visit [18:42] kabad.org/coseroney. [18:44] the links in the show notes and give [18:46] what you can. Thank you. Thank you for [18:48] helping families who truly need it. So [18:51] the difference between wholeness and [18:53] wholeness is the W. [18:56] >> Exact beautiful. [18:58] >> Keep your eyes on the W, right? what [19:00] what actually matters in life [19:04] >> and how can you prevent yourself from [19:07] chasing a life of emptiness [19:10] and and invest in things that will have [19:14] a positive impact on your life. So it it [19:18] sounds in a nutshell that if one is able [19:21] to wrangle his desires in [19:25] that will translate into a happier life. [19:29] disciplined desire, focused desire, [19:32] wanting the right things, and most [19:35] importantly knowing what is underneath [19:38] your desires, detaching and [19:40] disentangling, saying [19:44] it's not the watch that you want. It's [19:45] the feeling of wholeness. It's okay to [19:47] buy the watch. I'm wearing a very nice [19:48] watch right now. It's okay to feel that [19:50] you want to sometimes, you know, we live [19:53] in the world. we're meant to make it in [19:55] this world and we are a very social [19:57] beings and especially in the Jewish [20:00] community we're even more closely knit [20:02] but I think monitoring your desire I [20:04] think understanding you know I think a [20:07] lot of people I could literally tell the [20:09] story of my life by just at each stage [20:13] what did I what did I think would [20:16] resolve all my desires you know there [20:18] was a period in my life where I thought [20:20] the ultimate I just want my braces off [20:22] once my braces has come off, then my [20:25] life's going to be good. Then you have a [20:26] period, well, if I do really well on the [20:28] SATs, if I get that really nice [20:31] standardized test exam, then I then I'm [20:34] going to be and and then it's a graduate [20:35] school. And you realize that it's a [20:38] mirage. You you keep on actualizing [20:41] these thinner desires and then almost [20:44] before you know it you're the whole [20:47] reappears because you haven't really [20:49] been nourishing the most essential [20:51] desire which is all desire. Repeat it [20:55] with me is a desire for being. On that [20:57] note, I recently picked up a book that [21:00] Art Scroll wrote. I forgot the title but [21:02] it's on happiness. [21:04] >> Okay. And the first couple of pages, [21:06] which is big for me. I don't usually get [21:09] past the first couple of pages. It was [21:12] talking about everyone's innate desire [21:15] to be happy. Right. And you're using the [21:18] word desire and how controlling desire [21:22] will lead to a a place of being, [21:27] but you're not really talking about [21:29] happiness. Are you are you saying that [21:32] that's a given? Right? We desire things [21:36] because ultimately everyone wants to be [21:40] happy and this is what we think will [21:42] make us happy. Or are are you not saying [21:45] that and and desire isn't necessarily [21:50] synonymous with happiness? [21:53] I'm I I like that question. I actually I [21:56] stay away from the word happy. I think [21:58] the word happy is a misunderstood word. [22:03] uh we we're really most happy when we [22:06] don't even notice it. Happiness can be [22:09] like a short euphoric experience. It [22:11] could be on a roller coaster. Sometimes [22:13] being happy can just be like I it's too [22:16] amorphous. And even in one person's [22:19] life, forget about two different people. [22:21] It's very hard to tell in real time what [22:24] happiness is because we're always [22:26] accessing it as a memory. Oh, I was [22:28] happy then. Were you really happy then? [22:30] Like I I saw you then. I mean, I don't [22:32] know, maybe maybe you were hiding it or [22:34] maybe we don't always know the mechanics [22:37] of happiness. Desire, I think, is much [22:40] more accessible and noticeable for [22:42] people like there like sometimes we even [22:44] mumble like I want that like like you [22:47] you you you slow up and desire is a [22:52] always present vehicle. Now, I don't [22:55] think the fulfillment of desire [22:58] necessarily leads to happiness. I don't [23:00] even know that the goal is to be happy. [23:04] I think the goal in like literally all [23:07] of life is to be liberated from desire [23:10] itself to feel a sense of I like the [23:13] word contentment, wholeness of like I [23:16] don't I don't want anything. I don't [23:17] need anything. I I have everything I [23:19] want. Like I am I don't know about you [23:21] like I'm a very difficult person to buy [23:24] birthday presents for that require [23:26] >> which is why I don't buy you birthday [23:28] presents [23:28] >> and I've been wondering but but a lot of [23:30] that is the question of like [23:32] >> how many things and objects do you allow [23:34] have control over you and convince you [23:37] of this ridiculous illusion. If only if [23:40] only then I would be and I think that [23:43] this this leads to a tremendous amount [23:45] obviously of anxiety but even it it all [23:49] lose we lose our ability to derive [23:52] pleasure from even the money and the [23:54] objects we have when desire runs a muck. [23:57] So I don't think the goal is the pursuit [23:59] of happiness. I think the goal is the [24:01] discipline of desire. [24:02] >> What is it about money that [24:05] we're gravitating towards? And and I [24:07] understand it it it allows us to fulfill [24:10] many desires. But rephrasing the [24:13] question, if everyone grew up on an [24:16] island unto themselves in which they had [24:21] the minimal resources they need to [24:23] exist, but they did not have a vision of [24:27] what the other person was wearing, what [24:29] the other person was doing. And putting [24:31] aside the loneliness that one would [24:33] experience would we have an innate [24:37] desire to accumulate money to work for [24:41] it to to chase it. [24:43] >> So don't kill me but if you will allow [24:45] me I would like to quote a second [24:47] philosopher in this one I usually I know [24:50] you have a one philosopher per episode [24:52] policy. [24:53] >> It's in the contract it was in [24:55] >> but I want to break that for for one [24:56] moment right now. The first philosopher [24:58] I mentioned was Renee Gerard who says [25:00] all desire is a desire for being. That's [25:02] like there's a second philosopher that I [25:06] think is also very important. I think [25:08] all of these ideas aren't just like [25:09] alluded to in the Torah. I think they [25:12] are centrally anchored there. The first [25:15] thing that happens after Adam eats from [25:18] the tree of knowledge, the first [25:21] description that happens after is he [25:23] realizes that he is naked. He feels [25:26] embarrassed. He feels shamed for the [25:28] first time. And then right after, this [25:30] is very interesting. The the literal [25:33] description right after is he he senses [25:35] God as another as God as another like [25:38] walking through the garden asking where [25:41] are you? There is a philosopher without [25:44] directly couching it in this story like [25:47] I did who essentially says that the [25:49] birth of desire and this is going to [25:51] come back to your money question begins [25:53] the first time you look in the mirror. [25:56] His name is Jacques Lan and Lan has a [25:59] theory called the mirror theory which I [26:02] think I've seen it with my own children. [26:04] It's fascinating. The first time a child [26:06] looks in the mirror something very [26:08] startling takes place. The child [26:10] realizes that their inner world is [26:14] imperceptible to the outside world and [26:16] that the way that they are seen is only [26:19] on that surface level like and you start [26:22] to realize that nobody else has access [26:25] to my inner world and this is how [26:27] everybody kind of interacts with me. [26:29] >> This was before AI now we have access to [26:32] >> well [26:33] >> but but but like you have this feeling [26:35] of like I have this inner world. I have [26:37] this sense of self as a person and like [26:39] all that people are seeing is this [26:42] surface. [26:44] So what what we do in order to kind of [26:48] bridge that divide between our inner [26:50] world and our outer world is we start [26:54] symbolically representing ourselves. We [26:57] want to represent ourselves through the [27:00] way we speak, the way we talk. We want [27:03] to have this very the sense of being [27:05] unique and different. And I think the [27:08] the draw of money, this is the birth of [27:10] desire where we realize that we are seen [27:13] by others. Someone else sees me. That's [27:16] the connection to the story of of Adam [27:18] and Eve and seeing God walking through [27:20] the garden. It's this sense of oh, I am [27:23] now other. I'm not one with mommy. I'm [27:25] not I I have a distinct sense of self. [27:29] And the first thing that you want to do [27:30] when you have that is you want to [27:32] concretize it. It's almost like the [27:33] original idol worship. I want to make my [27:36] sense of self, my uniqueness, my who I [27:39] am as a person. You want to make it [27:41] tangible. [27:43] That is what I believe money represents. [27:46] Money is the deification of desire where [27:50] we take our most essential desire which [27:52] is just to feel whole and we give it [27:55] some tangible expression. A tangible [27:57] expression can be just money in the bank [28:00] that makes us feel more alive. Uh it [28:03] could be a fancy luxury item. It could [28:06] be like walking into the room a certain [28:08] way and you feel like you look good. You [28:10] feel good and you see the gaze of the [28:13] outside world. You feel that gaze on you [28:15] like you walk in, you got the [28:16] sunglasses, you got the right buttons [28:18] open or shut or what and you walk it [28:21] that right away is you are now [28:24] experiencing yourself through a mirror. [28:27] What are you doing? You the way you're [28:29] relating to your own life is just that [28:31] mirror image and you're almost like [28:34] muting all those inner voices. Money is [28:38] extraordinarily seductive because it [28:40] offers [28:42] a universal vehicle to feel that [28:46] superficial sense of self. meaning [28:49] beyond the money of your when I say [28:51] money I'm not talking about you know our [28:53] essential needs like you know food and [28:56] shelter but the accumulation [28:59] of wealth that gives us a certain [29:02] feeling which isn't necessarily bad but [29:05] we can become too attached to it and [29:08] that's when I think things can get very [29:10] very ugly when feel when people can [29:13] accumulate so much and they still feel [29:15] an inner emptiness that means They're [29:18] spending too much time looking at the [29:20] mirror image and they're they're not [29:22] ready to actually dig and like so what [29:25] actually is driving you? Wh why don't [29:28] you feel whole? You have a beautiful [29:29] home. You have money. Like I you I'm [29:32] sure you get this call all the time. [29:33] It's almost cliche, but I got a call I'm [29:36] not going to give away it like two two [29:39] weeks ago. Um, and I was talking to [29:41] somebody who like from our communities [29:43] totally wonderful and like very [29:47] casually. I was just like, "How are you [29:49] doing?" He said, "I'm doing awful. My [29:51] entire life is spent. [29:54] Anxiety over money. It's the only thing [29:57] I think about." Does he have it? He [30:00] actually does. He has a nice home. Maybe [30:04] for whatever reason, it's not because he [30:07] has no money. It's because the symbol [30:10] that money represents is never going to [30:13] fill that that deepest hole. It never [30:17] ever will. And learning how to address [30:20] and how to build that inner life, I [30:22] think that that's that's the end goal. [30:25] Money when it's in service of that can [30:28] be wonderful. Gives you so many more [30:30] options of how to do it and it makes [30:32] life a lot easier and more convenient. [30:34] All of these things are wonderful. But [30:37] if in the central circle it's still a [30:40] hole, it's still an abyss and it's not [30:42] addressed and you don't feel like you [30:44] have inherent self-worth, then you're [30:48] going to go through life with it doesn't [30:50] matter how much money you have. Uh there [30:52] is going to be an emptiness inside. [30:54] There's always going to be that [30:55] unrequited unfulfilled desire. [30:58] >> So you have a new book. Let's say that [31:00] book sold 100 million copies and you [31:04] made $30 million. What? What? Enough [31:07] money for you and your kids and your [31:09] grandkid? [31:09] >> Much less than 30 million. [31:11] >> Much less. [31:12] >> Would you see a world in which you still [31:15] try to make more money or do you see a [31:19] world in which [31:20] >> No. [31:20] >> You close up shop and [31:22] >> just write books and learn but not for [31:24] the sake of money. [31:25] >> Oh. Um um I always say I did it in [31:28] reverse. Like if you watch if you watch [31:31] like real like a lot of billionaires. So [31:34] they make a a ton of money and then what [31:36] do they do? They write their book and [31:38] then they start their podcast. I did it [31:40] I did in reverse. I got it totally [31:42] backwards. [31:42] >> The yum button. [31:43] >> This is this is not the way. This is not [31:45] the way to do it. But I am 100% certain [31:49] 100% certain that this this challenge [31:54] which was an excruciatingly painful [31:57] challenge. I grew up in the five towns. [31:58] I grew up in Lawrence. I grew up with I [32:02] think the original sin mistake of [32:05] growing up within our community, which [32:07] is associating self-worth with money. [32:11] 100%. I grew up with And I'm not the [32:13] only one. I I know a lot of my friends [32:15] who struggle with this also. And it can [32:17] sometimes it only comes out later with [32:20] dating, with marriage, with career of [32:22] your own. But when you look around and [32:25] you're only exposed to a and honestly [32:28] like it wasn't it wasn't ostentatious [32:30] when I grew up. I'm not commenting on [32:32] any of that but just this sense of like [32:34] to have a sense of selfworth you need a [32:37] certain type of salary and a certain [32:39] type of job and everyone else is kind of [32:42] like you know a little nook a little bit [32:44] like oi they don't that can really [32:48] really mess you up in the long term. But [32:52] one thing that I did and it only came [32:53] through a tremendous amount of pain. I [32:56] used to walk into every room and think, [32:58] "Oh, they've got money. They don't have [33:00] money. They do have money. They don't [33:01] have money. I want money. How am I just [33:03] got to get more money?" It's like I [33:04] would like mumble it in my breath. And I [33:07] had to do real work to extricate my [33:09] sense of self from money. That doesn't [33:12] mean I don't like money. I love money. [33:14] And I love luxuries and I love [33:16] convenience. I love all those things. [33:18] But if I had the I say this to my wife [33:20] constantly, we have reached our maximum [33:24] lifestyle needs. I don't need any more [33:27] beyond what we're doing. If my wife my [33:29] wife said she would put maybe an aster [33:31] say like can we go on vacation more [33:33] often? Just we can't go on vacation that [33:35] much anyways. We have little kids but [33:36] like she was like let's do let's put in [33:39] slot in two other vacations. If I made [33:41] $30 million I've sat this explicitly [33:43] with my wife. I don't think I'd move. [33:45] I'm pretty sure my wife would redo the [33:47] kitchen. I'm pretty sure. But a like I [33:50] don't think I would 30 million 100 [33:52] million. I don't think I would move. I [33:53] don't think I would. I I love my life. [33:56] Well, a lot of desire is a is a mask for [34:02] just self-hatred. People who they don't [34:04] like their life. They don't like So, [34:06] they're just desiring something else. [34:09] They're desiring another life, another [34:12] The real work of all money, discipline, [34:16] happiness is learning how to fall in [34:18] love with the present circumstances of [34:21] your life. If you can fall in love with [34:23] the present circumstances of your life, [34:25] that means every road, every fight you [34:27] got in with your parents and siblings [34:29] and every teacher who disappointed you [34:31] and every rejection that you had. If I [34:34] love my life where it is right now, then [34:36] every road that got me there was worth [34:38] it. [34:39] >> That's beautiful. [34:40] >> But you have to reverse engineer it. [34:42] What we what sometimes people do is they [34:45] want to fall in love with the with the [34:47] journey with like No, no, no. I reverse [34:49] engineer. I I want to be focused. Do I [34:52] love the present circumstances of my [34:54] life? Now, not everybody can do that. I [34:56] look at that as a gift. It's a gift that [34:58] number one, thank God, I haven't had to [35:01] contend with lifealtering [35:04] uh health challenges, god forbid, and [35:07] that is something that I I keep in mind. [35:09] Number two, um we had a lot of luck, [35:12] community, neighbors, it's great. It [35:15] works. I I I love But the main thing is [35:19] is I started putting in work in noticing [35:22] and articulating and saying, I love my [35:25] life. [35:26] If I had a hund00 million of small liter [35:30] like like a little things I would change [35:32] tiny a new what's it called? A new [35:35] island in our kitchen. Yeah, that's [35:37] probably it's probably on on a bucket [35:39] list somewhere. [35:39] >> They do say the happiest people have an [35:42] island in their kitchen. [35:43] >> Have an island. Yeah. [35:44] >> No, I that that that's the third [35:45] philosopher I was going to quote, but I [35:47] decided I decided not to. Uh there's a [35:50] lot a lot of philosophical literature [35:51] written on the kitchen island, but but [35:53] that's what I'm saying. If I had $30 [35:54] million, I don't think people would even [35:57] know, [35:58] which is not a sly way of me saying I [36:01] already have. No, I don't have anywhere [36:02] near $30 million. That is not the update [36:05] I came here for. But I would say, and [36:08] I'm proud of the fact that if I were [36:10] given $30 million, I'm not I don't think [36:13] my life would change in ways that [36:15] anybody would notice. I want to pause [36:18] this episode for one second. I want to [36:20] tell you about someone who a lot of [36:21] people have come to trust with big [36:23] financial decisions. His name Shyitz. [36:26] You probably know him from the mortgage [36:28] world, but that's a fraction of what [36:30] Schmool actually does. Buying a home, [36:32] refinancing, looking at an investment [36:34] property, figuring out business [36:36] financing. Sometimes you just need [36:38] someone with experience to talk it and [36:40] think it through with you. Well, that's [36:42] Schmal. He has spent years helping [36:44] people understand their options and ask [36:47] the right questions before they sign [36:49] anything. Don't touch that pen without [36:51] speaking to Schmal. So, even if you're [36:53] not ready to move on something right [36:55] now, one conversation can save you real [36:57] money and a lot of stress later. You're [37:00] going to do all that research and then [37:01] find out at the last second that this is [37:03] not something for you. You could have [37:05] spoken to Schmool on day one. He is a [37:07] coach at Living Smarter Jewish, which [37:09] many of you know him from there. But if [37:11] you have a financial question or you're [37:13] weighing your next move, go to [37:15] coach.com/lsj. [37:18] That's coachmo.com/lsj. [37:22] It's in the show notes. Schedule a [37:24] conversation and tell them Kosher Money [37:26] sent you. Everyone, including you, has a [37:28] money question. No matter where you're [37:30] holding in life, you deserve a real [37:32] answer. So don't sleep on this. It's my [37:35] tip to you, Coachell. You're welcome. I [37:39] do think I have a hunch that the second [37:42] people let go and try to push their [37:46] journey in a in a particular direction [37:49] is when God says I'll take it from here. [37:53] You've been trying and and people should [37:55] still continue the efforts/histadas [37:59] um that they are putting in. But [38:02] something tells me that when you let go [38:06] and you let God take the reigns, [38:10] I believe that is when you become a [38:14] conduit for blessing for braha that [38:18] Hashem will say you no longer think that [38:24] you're in control. I I I think as a [38:26] community um certainly myself and I'm [38:29] trying to work on it, we we overinvest [38:31] in hishadas in in effort and the more we [38:38] remember why we're on this world, right? [38:42] to help others, to to do mitzvah, to [38:46] learn Torah, we start to a love [38:50] ourselves more, but b I think it [38:53] attracts [38:55] whatever it is we were health in a [38:58] healthy way chasing. I can't I mean, I'm [39:01] sure there are many that that talk about [39:03] this, but I was talking to a fellow in [39:05] Canada and we were at a conference and [39:08] he was walking out and I said, "Where [39:09] are you going? it's, you know, the [39:11] evening ceremony is starting and he [39:13] says, "Oh, I have a karusa study [39:15] partner." And he said, I said, "Wow." He [39:17] says, "I want you to know something." I [39:18] was standing there with someone else. He [39:20] says, "Every time I took on a new study [39:22] partner, a new kusa, a new session, go [39:24] to a new share, I make more money [39:27] guaranteed. It happens each and every [39:29] time." So, I'm not I'm not making [39:32] promises here, [39:34] >> but I do think that [39:37] >> Yeah. No, to to wrap the thought is my [39:39] podcast, not yours. The the to to wrap [39:43] the thought, I think we think we're more [39:47] in charge than we really are. Meaning, [39:50] yes, we we we [39:52] grew up in in a great community and you [39:54] talk about luck [39:56] and that's all great, but the second we [39:59] let go, [40:00] we become a a vessel to then receive. I [40:04] want to say two things and I I love [40:06] everything that you said except one [40:08] thing. Number one, I I think this is [40:11] exactly what you were saying. I just [40:12] want to almost rephrase it. [40:16] The effort that we place [40:19] it just needs to know towards what end. [40:22] What are you being mishtadel? What are [40:25] you putting in effort for? That is why I [40:28] think centering this goal of being [40:32] falling in love with the present [40:33] circumstances of your life is should be [40:37] the goal of your efforts and your [40:40] histadas. Very often we make a mistake [40:43] and we cuz we get lost in this binary. [40:46] Is it amuna or is it histadas? It's like [40:49] one is like getting dressed and going to [40:52] work and the other is like we make it [40:54] seem as just like just doing all day and [40:57] accepting. No, that's it's a false [40:59] binary. There's no way to opt out of [41:02] histadas. Histadas is is is how we are [41:06] in the world. It is the efforts that we [41:09] make for our own sense of self. But I [41:12] think we can ask ourselves what are we [41:14] placing effort in for? And this is where [41:16] I think people make a lot of mistakes. A [41:19] lot of people say I am putting in effort [41:21] to I want to be rich. I want to have a [41:24] nicer home. I want to afford a vacation [41:26] or whatever it is. And I think that's [41:28] the wrong goal because that will there [41:31] there's no end to it. The goal that we [41:34] should want is why are you why are you [41:35] putting in so much? Cuz I am trying to [41:37] fall in love with the present [41:38] circumstances in my life which includes [41:40] the histadas itself. There sometimes [41:42] there are people who like they'll never [41:45] be able because they they they hate [41:47] their job. They're in they cannot make [41:50] peace with it for whatever reason. So in [41:54] that you're not going to be able to fall [41:55] in love with the present circumstances [41:56] of your life. But the end goal, what are [41:58] we at? The president. The the part that [42:00] I grimaced at and I don't like is I am [42:04] no longer into stories about somebody [42:08] who learned a lot, became a vehicle, and [42:10] then made a lot of money. I no longer [42:12] want to be lectured on beton from [42:16] gazillionaires. It doesn't resonate. I [42:18] have no problem if they want to do it. [42:19] It just doesn't it doesn't do anything [42:21] for me. It doesn't excite me. It I don't [42:23] find it all that illuminating. say [42:26] whatever they want and everybody can say [42:27] whatever they want, but [42:28] >> I'm with you on that. [42:29] >> But I just like I I get very nervous [42:31] that we're going to turn into some [42:34] prosperity church where the reason why [42:37] and and I see this language all over the [42:39] place is like and I had the amuna and I [42:42] had the and now look at me now. And you [42:44] know what people think when they're [42:46] watching that honestly and and it's not [42:48] such far-fetched. I think it's coming [42:50] from a little bit of internal [42:51] brokenness. But a lot of people the [42:53] messaging a lot of times a little bit [42:55] more taken and maybe you wouldn't be so [42:57] broke and maybe maybe you could have [42:59] maybe you could have my maybe you'd have [43:00] my life. No a lot of times leads to a [43:04] very nice middle class below middle [43:06] class or people who are in poverty the [43:09] people who are in wealth. I want to [43:11] extricate those two. The goal is not to [43:14] be wealthy. Let's wake up people. You [43:17] don't need me to repeat the trope of [43:19] like wealth not being equivalent to [43:23] happiness. We just need a better and [43:25] smarter goal. We need to change the [43:27] equation of our life that we're trying [43:29] to solve. I'm not trying to solve the [43:31] equation of how to get rich. I'm trying [43:33] to solve the equation. How do I fall in [43:35] love with my life? I think one of the [43:37] reasons why you don't want to be [43:39] lectured by a gazillionaire on a moon [43:41] and baton is because there's a very thin [43:43] line between a rich person saying they [43:47] have a baton because they believe it and [43:51] they're saying it because if they stop [43:54] saying it, they think they're going to [43:55] lose all of their money. [43:58] >> Yeah. And correct. And what's their [43:59] what's their motive around continuing to [44:03] have a moon and baton? Is it for the [44:05] sake of having a baton or is it for the [44:07] sake of I don't want to turn back into [44:09] you and and lose all my money? [44:11] >> Correct. Correct. And and I I don't [44:13] think it's a problem to diminish how [44:15] much they enjoy having. I hope that I [44:17] hope everybody enjoys the amount of [44:19] money that they have. But I think we [44:20] need to reformulate the equation that [44:23] that we are living towards and that [44:25] instead of living towards some fixed [44:28] outcome which is wealth which is the [44:32] only thing anybody wants is to be in [44:34] love with their life and how do I fall [44:36] in love with the present circumstances [44:38] of my life? You have to really turn [44:39] inwards. You have to really examine [44:42] what's surrounding you, what's around [44:43] me. And I think with that that and then [44:47] you apply the question of what do I [44:50] really desire most? I mean there's this [44:52] book uh called love's executioner by [44:56] Irvvin Yalob. I quote it constantly. I [44:58] love the book. And he opens up the [45:00] opening to the book of the introduction [45:03] is him in a major auditorium [45:07] uh giving some lecture and he turned to [45:08] the crowd and he said, "I want everybody [45:11] to turn to the person to the right of [45:13] them and to the left of them and ask [45:15] each time just keep on switching off but [45:17] each person to the right and the left, [45:18] what do you want most? What do you [45:21] really want most?" And just keep asking [45:23] the question. And he said after a few [45:25] minutes the whole place was crying. What [45:28] what do we want most? We want love from [45:30] our parents. We want to have our mentors [45:33] and teachers not disappointed in us. We [45:36] want to feel a sense of wholeness in our [45:38] lives. We want to feel a sense of of of [45:40] nas of pride and esteem in our children. [45:44] We want to we want to get married. We [45:46] want to have a family. We want to become [45:49] feel independent and stable. [45:52] None of this is specifically wedded to [45:54] any clear fixed dollar amount. You know [45:57] what my mother would always quote, she [46:00] would quote, you know, Rabbi Walter [46:01] Wartsburgger, but he was really quoting [46:03] Oscar Wild. We know the cost of [46:06] everything but the value of nothing. And [46:08] part of what examining desire really [46:12] does is it disentangles cost and value. [46:17] >> Do you make money from writing a book? [46:19] >> Not not enough. Not enough for that [46:22] island kitchen. Did you write this or [46:24] did chatt write this? [46:27] >> U actually I'm so glad you asked me. [46:30] It's so comforting that I have already [46:33] clearly published books before the [46:35] advent of chat GPT and AI like I've [46:37] already like established the fact that [46:39] like I can write and speak into full [46:41] sentences. So I hope that quelled some [46:44] of the some of the rumors. But this book [46:46] really does relate to to to everything [46:48] that we're talking about in the sense [46:50] that the book which is called I read [46:52] this over Shabas reading Jewish history [46:55] in the para is going through the lens of [46:58] Torah and spiritual values and examining [47:02] history. examining what are the actual [47:06] human battles over religious truth and [47:10] and what kind of community we want, [47:13] boundaries, all of these things. What [47:15] the book is really trying to do is teach [47:19] people how to read not just Torah, but [47:22] read into our own lives and our own [47:24] history. [47:25] >> And there are pictures. [47:27] >> And there are pictures. [47:27] >> I I think p I do think pictures are [47:30] underutilized in adult books. Pictures [47:32] are way underutilized in adult books. It [47:36] keeps it going. It makes it interesting. [47:38] But I think I think a lot of times if [47:40] you really examine even religion and [47:43] religious debate and religious concerns, [47:46] it's religious desire, it is coming back [47:49] to that same principle. And that [47:51] principle is we want to feel whole and [47:54] this is a vehicle for wholeness. But we [47:56] can very often get stuck [47:59] in that superficial mirror layer where [48:03] instead of having a religious life that [48:06] enhances your inner world, we have a [48:08] religious life that is just to project a [48:11] certain type of outer world and and that [48:14] scares me. Meaning the way that religion [48:16] can be co-opted in the abuse of desire. [48:20] >> Where can someone get this book? We'll [48:22] put a link in the show notes, but [48:24] >> local bookstores and I think it'll be on [48:26] Amazon very soon. They the publisher [48:28] Corin likes to likes to give priority to [48:31] bookstores which I actually really [48:32] appreciate. [48:33] >> And there's a patriotic feel with the [48:35] red, white. [48:35] >> I'm a I'm a a well-known patriot. So [48:38] >> there you go. Do you travel a lot? I [48:41] used to travel a lot for like Scotland [48:44] resident stuff and I actually stopped [48:47] because I felt like it was taking a [48:50] larger toll on me than the than the very [48:54] helpful you know I would get paid and [48:56] there's so much to talk about in the [48:57] world of Scan residences and payment and [49:00] even getting payment for religious [49:02] activities is its own its own universe [49:05] but yes I do travel but I've started [49:08] traveling much much less [49:09] >> you strike me as someone who loves [49:10] history. And the reason I ask is because [49:12] as I flip through the book, I I do see, [49:15] you know, gravestones and and old [49:17] artifacts. And I was just from a curious [49:20] standpoint, when you do travel, not as a [49:24] scholar and residence, but just, you [49:26] know, to Europe and and World War II um [49:29] monuments and areas. [49:31] >> Oh, I've never done that. [49:32] >> You've never done that? I I have never [49:35] visited any Holocaust history, anyles, [49:41] nothing [49:42] >> for a reason. [49:43] >> Not an explicit reason. It's a question [49:45] I've asked myself. Um, you're scared. [49:49] >> I don't think I'm scared. I think that I [49:52] am I never felt the right tour. It's so [49:56] personal and private to confront death [50:00] in such a overt fashion. I don't know. I [50:04] don't know that I could do it in a [50:06] group. Like I I shut down a little bit. [50:08] Like it's hard to feel you need the [50:10] right size and I don't want it I I don't [50:13] want it to be um performative in any way [50:16] which is harder. Um I have a certain [50:19] curiosity. I love history but I actually [50:21] don't do a lot of historical tours. Not [50:24] not at all. And I think a lot of that is [50:25] like ultimately the reason why I love [50:28] history is really to further my own [50:30] understanding of myself and the world. [50:33] Uh it's not like it's not a vacation [50:36] like how do I like to vacation? It's not [50:38] I I could do a museum, you know, like [50:40] one museum a day, but my real ideal [50:44] vacation is is really just sitting in a [50:46] chair and reading. It's it's fairly [50:49] unglamorous. Does involve a lot of [50:50] walking. It certainly does not involve a [50:52] lot of concentration camps. We'll be [50:54] right back to this great episode. We [50:56] spend a lot of time on Kosher Money [50:58] talking about making smart decisions [51:00] before your money is already spent. And [51:02] if you're building something, here's a [51:04] tip for you. Don't pay an architect to [51:06] learn your world on your project. 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And oh, tell them your [52:36] friends at Kosher Money sent you. Let's [52:37] get back to the episode. [52:39] >> So, no one knew you before you came on [52:42] our podcast. [52:42] >> That's that's a fact for sure. [52:44] >> Um, but but you did uh invent [52:48] our first episode the idea of Gir [52:50] culture, which took the world by storm. [52:52] And for those that don't know what a Gir [52:54] is, in essence, it's a wealthy person [52:57] and how perhaps too much of our society [53:00] is is focused on Girim wealthy people [53:03] than it is the Gdoleim, our our Torah [53:06] giants. [53:07] I'd love to hear and and for the [53:10] audience as well, how has how have those [53:14] conversations around culture developed [53:17] over the past 5 years? And have we made [53:20] any meaningful progress as a society in [53:24] trying to pivot away from gir culture to [53:26] gdollam culture? [53:28] Such a good question. So I originally, [53:32] you know, used this term gave culture [53:34] cuz I was seeing how much Jewish and [53:37] religious culture was getting wrapped up [53:39] in a certain type of opulence of what [53:42] the home looks like. And it just worried [53:44] me really because of everything we've [53:46] been discussing because desire is so [53:49] mimedic. [53:51] When you have kids growing up and they [53:53] can name more more girum than they can [53:56] gdole, they're only going to have a [53:58] certain type of aspiration. Now like [54:02] anything that you say publicly, it is so [54:04] easy to misunderstand. And I I saw that [54:08] almost immediately after where where the [54:12] you know people heard Gir culture and [54:14] assumed well that probably means anytime [54:17] we see a rabbi go on a Pesak program [54:20] let's call them out publicly. Let let's [54:22] shut down all the Pesak programs. That [54:24] it's like the opposite of what I was [54:26] talking about. the the outrage or any [54:30] sort of anger towards somebody who has [54:33] more money than you is actually you are [54:36] the loser in the gir culture [54:38] conversation. The gver culture [54:40] conversation was surfaced in order to [54:42] give language to what people are [54:46] experiencing so that they could actually [54:49] reclaim their own responsibility for [54:52] their own desire and actually take a [54:54] little bit of accountability for their [54:56] own desire. And I was giving language to [54:58] the fact that I understand why that can [55:00] be so so hard nowadays because we get so [55:04] much you know messaging that is [55:07] ambiguous when it comes to wealth. [55:10] >> Well, we grew up on what if I were a [55:12] rich man, right? [55:14] >> Not only that because what what if I [55:16] were a rich man is actually gir culture [55:19] 1.0. That's the one that I can it's a [55:22] much easier issue to solve. That is uh [55:25] what's his name? Tevia from the fiddler [55:27] on the roof who is this poverty struck [55:29] in popper uh you know in thetettle [55:33] imagining what life would be like if he [55:36] was rich. What I'm talking about is [55:38] actually something a little bit more [55:40] insidious and subtle, which is when when [55:45] communal leadership [55:47] is presented to us in the packaging of [55:51] wealth where prominence and in that [55:54] sense I think in some ways it's gotten [55:56] much much worse. We're exposed to much [55:58] more. I think we have a general, you [56:00] know, mel that your average Jew growing [56:05] up can name. so many rabbis who have [56:09] been on a private jet. I think that's [56:11] that that's I'm saying that jokingly [56:14] like it's a little scary like I grew up [56:16] in a generation where you you never even [56:19] saw the inside of one and it's become [56:21] very common. This is not I don't want to [56:23] repeat the same misunderstanding. What I [56:26] am trying to remind people is extricate [56:28] yourself from those feelings. It is okay [56:32] if you see somebody who is living a life [56:36] that you don't want, then don't want it. [56:40] Then don't want it or have the courage [56:42] to admit that you actually do want it [56:45] and then try to pursue it. Okay? If [56:47] that's if that's the only way that you [56:49] are going to be able to fall in love [56:50] with the present circumstances of your [56:52] life is get on a PESOC program. I don't [56:54] know. Ask favors, get an extra job. What [56:57] I'm really sad about is that I think it [57:00] is it's so hard within our community to [57:04] find where the where we end as [57:07] individuals and where the community [57:08] begins and there we're growing up [57:11] simultaneously within a very certain [57:13] kind of culture. I think the most [57:15] important thing that we need to be able [57:17] to do religiously right now is to be [57:20] able to understand our own desire and [57:24] allow it to not just be shaped by what [57:26] you're reading in magazines or seeing [57:28] forward on WhatsApp groups. But the [57:30] moment that you're in a WhatsApp group [57:32] and you're you're knocking it, you know, [57:35] that's the issue. People think, "Oh, you [57:37] know, you know how I'm going to conquer [57:38] gver culture? I'll knock gve culture." [57:41] No, no, no, no. Whether or not you're [57:43] obsessed with wealth or you hate wealth, [57:46] you're you're equally miserable. You're [57:49] you're making the same mistake. The way [57:51] to do that is to liberate yourself from [57:54] desire itself. You know, there there is [57:57] a phenomenal story. [57:59] I may have told this once, you'll [58:01] forgive me. I I I I love this. I think [58:03] it's such a thoughtful story. I heard it [58:05] from my rebby I believe where the altar [58:09] of Slabadka who was a rabbi who taught [58:12] in the famed he was the Mashki the dean [58:14] of students of the yeshivan Slabadka was [58:17] walking with two students on a boardwalk [58:19] and they saw a couple sitting together [58:22] and they were being inappropriate a [58:24] little too touchy where you know in [58:26] acting in a way that a a student of the [58:28] yeshiva certainly would never act and [58:31] the [58:33] these two students [58:35] with the alter lab like nudge their you [58:37] see that they were outraged disgusting [58:40] look at this out there in the public a [58:42] couple like this [58:44] filth disgusting outraged and then and [58:48] the alter of Slabatka [58:50] fame the rabbi looked at them with a [58:52] little twinkle in his eye a little bit [58:53] of a smile and he said in Yiddish he [58:55] said abyssal Canada you're a little bit [58:58] jealous you're a you're a little bit [59:00] jealous meaning we have to pay attention [59:04] to our desire. We have to pay attention [59:05] to our outrage. I I if if gir culture [59:09] for you means getting outraged at I [59:13] don't know magazine covers, WhatsApp [59:15] groups, PES programs, [59:17] you you are you are as broken in so many [59:21] ways as the person who is upset all day [59:24] because they don't have the right kind [59:26] of watch. They're not on the right [59:27] pesock pro. You haven't gotten anywhere. [59:30] What does it mean to get somewhere? [59:32] Moving the needle is being happy with [59:35] your own life. And you'll find that [59:36] people who are genuinely in love with [59:38] their own life, it is much more [59:41] challenging to rattle them because they [59:44] have spent all of their efforts, all of [59:47] their focus on liberating themselves [59:49] from desire itself, fulfilling the most [59:52] essential desire. All desire is desire [59:54] for being. If I feel like I have [59:56] self-worth, if I feel like I love my [59:58] family and I love my life and I love my [60:00] home and I love my community, I start [60:02] inward and move outwards and that [60:04] there's real eternal expression for what [60:06] my life is, then peso programs and [60:10] private jets and fundraisers and all, [60:12] it's not going to bother you cuz you're [60:15] a whole person. So what I really noticed [60:18] after the gir culture is is how [60:23] everyone's shouting and if you are still [60:26] shouting that that means there's [60:27] something unresolved in there abyssal [60:31] you're a little bit jealous and then [60:33] that needs to be addressed internally [60:35] that that nothing is going to solid [60:41] notice when you are jealous notice what [60:44] you are what you are desiring ing and be [60:47] more honest and all and sincere with [60:50] your expectations. It doesn't mean to [60:52] live like a monk. I like nice clothes. I [60:54] know when I need something desirous. I [60:56] feel naked when I don't wear a watch. I [60:58] feel naked cuz I've been wearing it for [60:59] so long. [61:00] >> Oh, I don't even get the whole watch. [61:01] >> Oh, evil inclination. I I or whatever it [61:04] is. [61:04] >> And you don't get it. What's What's your [61:06] But like [61:06] >> Oh, I I'm sure I have something else, [61:09] right? [61:09] >> You have submission, guys. [61:10] >> Of course. Of course. But [61:12] >> my thing is Yeah. I I don't even [61:14] understand the [61:16] >> collectibles. You like collectibles? I [61:18] like I like certain types of memorabilia [61:21] like uh basketball card collections. [61:24] >> But but I can understand that. [61:25] >> Uhhuh. You can't even understand the [61:26] watch. [61:27] >> No, I I don't watch like jewelry jewelry [61:29] for I don't understand it. A woman I'm [61:32] not a woman, so I I I I understand that. [61:34] I can't understand it. But but the watch [61:37] it it's so and then all the Rolex [61:39] raffles and and you know we won't get [61:42] into that but the [61:44] >> No, but we can meaning when I see those [61:45] it it doesn't bother me. Okay, this is [61:47] what helps them with their fundraiser. [61:49] I'm I'm careful. I'm I'm not going to [61:52] participate in things that are going to [61:54] make me leaving feeling gross about [61:57] myself and and maybe I wouldn't do that [62:00] exact fundraiser, but I don't know. I [62:02] would go on a I've been on a PESOC [62:04] program. You know, some some you'll [62:06] love, some you won't like. And that's a [62:08] decision that people can can make for [62:11] themselves and they should be able to [62:13] make for themselves. Stop. You know, we [62:15] had a debate [62:17] about finances in the community and and [62:21] Leslie Ginsbar Klene said something [62:24] extraordinarily profound. She said in [62:27] every WhatsApp group, you know, when [62:29] there's like a school policy, there's [62:31] always the people who like their [62:33] instinct right away is to go to the MOA [62:35] or go to the school and be like, we need [62:37] a better policy about this. We we we [62:39] need to fix this. Like the school needs [62:40] to everything needs to come top down [62:42] from the moa, from the school, you know, [62:44] the bach mitzvah policy, the bar mitzvah [62:46] polic has to come top down. And I I [62:50] think that there's a place for that, but [62:51] I think people need to like gain control [62:54] of their own lives and like have a [62:56] little bit of confidence. I know it's [62:58] hard when your kids come home and say, [62:59] "I want I so have those conversations [63:02] with your kid." What's holier than a [63:03] conversation with your kid about needs [63:05] and wants and desire? I think the first [63:07] conversation I had with my son, the [63:10] first like like little the first like [63:12] real back conversation is the difference [63:14] between a fact and an opinion. And the [63:17] second conversation you have with your [63:18] child is the difference between a need [63:19] and a want. These are basics that we [63:23] forget in life. Adults forget them. [63:25] Forget the difference between a fact and [63:26] an opinion and forget between a need and [63:28] a want. And like being able to sit with [63:30] a child, an 8-year-old, a 9-year-old, a [63:32] six-year-old, a seven-year-old, and [63:34] explain it to them and explaining [63:36] explain what we have that's so special. [63:39] Well, I I pose this question to my kids [63:40] all the time. Would you want a different [63:43] family if they had $5 billion and a [63:46] yacht? Every kid, no. Are you crazy? No. [63:50] I need my mommy and my daddy. That's the [63:52] feeling we lose and think that we can [63:55] reclaim in adulthood with the yacht. We [63:58] forget about it. Every child knows if [64:01] you ask your kid, you get a different [64:03] mommy and daddy. It won't be me and but [64:05] you will have $5 billion. You get [64:07] whatever you want. There's not a child [64:08] on earth a seven-year-old be like, yeah, [64:10] I'll take. No, they I I can't live [64:12] without my mom and dad. So, we already [64:14] know what the We know what the end truth [64:16] is, but we're not willing to admit it to [64:18] ourselves in real time as we're living [64:21] out there, as we're in the world. We [64:23] really have convinced ourselves. If I if [64:25] only I had that, then I'd be whole. And [64:28] it's just not true. We need to invest in [64:31] family, in bias, in in a a [64:36] addressing our most essential self, [64:38] which means addressing our most [64:40] essential desires. [64:41] >> You mentioned schools and you wrote a [64:43] brilliant point in an article a few [64:46] years back about how much of our desires [64:52] for more has bled into [64:56] the school system. the the structures [64:59] that we're building. And I I think it [65:01] becomes more and more of a valid [65:03] question because I'm seeing more and [65:05] more messages from people that are [65:08] struggling to pay tuition. The costs are [65:11] higher. And I guess my question to you [65:13] is, do you think part of those costs are [65:19] from things that may be somewhat [65:22] unnecessary? And and and I asked that [65:25] you'll say, "Yeah, but a wealthy [65:27] individual donated the building and [65:29] that's what he wanted to donate." But [65:31] anytime that there's a step up in the [65:33] beauty of the edifice, is that how you [65:35] pronounce it? [65:36] >> Yeah. [65:36] >> Okay, good. [65:37] >> Beautiful pronunciation. [65:38] >> Thank you. That is in some ways going to [65:41] come out of someone's pocket. and and as [65:44] a society have we and of course it's our [65:48] children and we should overinvest and [65:51] today's generation needs more resources [65:53] than we did as ch I get it but at what [65:57] point [65:58] yeah I'm not I'm not going to ask the [66:00] question I'd love to hear your thoughts [66:02] on on this and and is that something [66:04] that we can reel in? [66:06] >> I actually don't look at that as a [66:07] particularly fruitful place to reel in. [66:10] I actually think we have to start [66:12] admitting to ourselves what another [66:15] institution or a building at this point [66:18] is going to do to solve our most [66:20] essential problems. meaning [66:24] the the institutionalization [66:26] of the Jewish community uh came from a [66:29] very necessary struggle, a very [66:32] necessary crisis I would call it, in the [66:35] aftermath of the Holocaust where [66:38] American jewelry uh was not only [66:41] uneducated, but American jewelry uh [66:44] wasn't even sure what the model of [66:46] Jewish life that would actually survive. [66:48] Like we we we did not have a clue. I'm [66:51] speaking as somebody who all four of my [66:52] grandparents were born in the United [66:54] States of America and they lived through [66:56] this. We we we didn't know the model of [66:58] Jewish life that would survive. Um and [67:01] then I think beginning in the 1950s but [67:03] accelerating a lot in the 70s, 80s and [67:06] 90s, we came to this truth primarily in [67:10] the Orthodox Jewish community that we [67:12] are not going to survive on American [67:14] soil without a very strong educational [67:18] system. And it is the greatest miracle [67:21] in the world. None of us would be [67:23] standing here today were not for that. [67:26] But I do think in many ways we have [67:29] reached peak institutionalization [67:32] of the Jewish community and every [67:35] additional fancy institution there's [67:38] that uh may may be coming at a cost that [67:42] we should not be paying and instead [67:46] going directly and affecting families in [67:49] their homes in their individual lives I [67:51] think is where we need to be fa where we [67:54] need to start thinking about communally [67:57] instead of and that's very hard number [67:59] one to to fund raise for. It's very hard [68:02] to come up with systems of how to go [68:04] directly to family. I think of [68:05] organizations like like a tom shabas [68:07] which doesn't have you know that just [68:09] deliver shabas food directly directly to [68:11] families. I see this. I see this in my [68:14] life and my sisters like and my siblings [68:17] and my brother like [68:19] we gained the value ad of yeshiva for us [68:23] was it was day and night. It was zero to [68:26] one. It was like a binary. [68:28] But the the value ad in each sub [68:31] subsequent generation of like a bigger [68:33] yeshiva better yeshiva doesn't really [68:36] pay the dividends that we think it does. [68:38] Which doesn't mean god forbid everyone [68:39] should get a yeshiva education. [68:41] everybody should get a Jewish education. [68:43] But the the wowification of all of the [68:47] institutions, I don't think is [68:49] significantly moving the needle at this [68:52] point. What we need to start doing is [68:54] coming back to families, focusing on [68:57] marriages, relationships. [68:59] That's the real glue that shapes any [69:02] community. And I am worried that in in [69:06] it's much more solvable. build a [69:08] building, set up a 501c3, have a bianual [69:12] fundraiser. It's much it's a much more [69:14] amorphous problem of like how do we [69:18] really help inside of the family lives? [69:21] And that's where I think the the source [69:23] of the leak is, you know what I mean? [69:25] Like we still have like leaks in our [69:27] community and every time like we're [69:28] like, is there a leak in the roof? Like [69:30] where's it coming from? And we're like [69:32] another organization. No, it's coming [69:34] from broken marriages, bad parenting, [69:38] traumatic childhoods, and then we pay [69:41] those dividends for the rest of our li [69:43] we we pay the price of that [69:46] for the rest of our lives. Every [69:48] marriage that falls apart, every every [69:52] uh childhood that was broken and [69:54] wanting, that's the real ache of our [69:58] community. And that only gets solved by [70:01] actually doing the work. There's no [70:04] fundraiser dinner building that can [70:07] reach into the interiority of our life. [70:09] What I'm saying is we have to go past [70:11] the mirror to go back to Lan and we have [70:14] to like start to really address the [70:17] emptiness that we feel biffim in our [70:19] most internal sense of self. I'd love to [70:22] be approached by a nonprofit that says, [70:24] "We're solely focused on providing [70:27] afterchool tutoring to children that [70:30] need an extra boost." Right. Exactly. [70:32] That will have a direct impact on the [70:35] parents, free them up a little bit so [70:36] they're not being [70:38] >> That is where I think that like I was [70:41] talking to somebody about this yesterday [70:42] in a big Jewish uh nonprofit that was [70:45] like starting a new learning program and [70:48] I grimaced. I said I also started new [70:50] learning programs but I I was like [70:52] trying to think of like within our and [70:54] when I say our I mean the orthodox the [70:56] from community like I'm not sure of what [70:58] we and maybe this is like heretical. I'm [71:01] not sure if what we need most now is [71:03] like another learning program. Like what [71:05] we might need most now is like getting [71:08] back to basics. What's between a fact [71:10] and an opinion? What's between a need [71:11] and a want? You know what I mean? like [71:13] really getting back to the basics of how [71:16] to be alive and how to build a [71:18] meaningful, substantive, joyful life. [71:21] And that's much harder to solve that [71:24] problem because it's only solved if you [71:26] solve it. Hold the wire because the [71:29] episode ends with even more wisdom. But [71:31] before that, I want to ask you, have you [71:33] ever wondered who created Torah anytimes [71:36] technology or Eastern Union's loan [71:38] processing platform that processed over [71:41] $50 billion or for Prompt Logistics, [71:44] which is a freight logistics company, [71:46] but you knew that they created custom [71:48] software involving carriers, instant [71:51] rate quotes, and comparisons, and doing [71:53] everything beautifully and simply. Well, [71:55] that was none other than Bitbeam. Stop [71:58] working with archaic software. It's 2026 [72:00] or when you're listening to this maybe [72:02] 2028. You should get what you want when [72:04] you want at a fraction of the price it [72:06] used to cost because of AI. And to do it [72:09] right, you're going to contact my [72:10] friends at bitbean.com. Links in the [72:12] show notes. It's a nocost conversation. [72:14] You have to see what's possible. Stop [72:16] living inside Google Sheets. Alex over [72:18] at bitbean is going to take good care of [72:20] you and your business or organization as [72:22] he and the team have for many hundreds [72:25] just like you. If you've seen what [72:26] Kazde's been up to, that has BitBan [72:29] written all over it. Go to bitbean.com, [72:31] click on their case studies, click on [72:32] AI, click on their contact. They will [72:35] take good care of you, but you have to [72:37] take the first step. [72:39] You're a professor now, right? [72:41] >> I've been a professor for some time. [72:42] >> Sometime. What are you telling the 20 [72:46] year olds, the 25 year olds? You only [72:47] have a a certain amount of time with [72:49] them and and obviously desire is is up [72:53] there. What are a couple of other things [72:54] that you try to impress upon them so [72:57] that when they think back in 30 years [72:59] and you know you'll have a a gray hair [73:03] and they think fondly of you what what [73:06] what do you try to leave them with? [73:09] I think one of the most central messages [73:11] and it comes back to the story of Adam [73:14] and Eve and the tree of knowledge which [73:16] I think is the emergence of [73:18] consciousness. I think that's a really [73:20] essential and story of just [73:22] understanding humanity. It's the same [73:24] story, believe it or not, that Adam [73:26] Smith when he was coming up with the [73:28] ideas of economics went back to that [73:30] story. But there's something very [73:32] unique, at least in the Jewish world, [73:34] about that story, which is how we date [73:37] that story. I'm going to I'm going to [73:40] answer your question, but I'm going to [73:42] do it how I do it in class, which is, [73:45] you know, we have seven days of creation [73:47] is the beginning of the Torah, and then [73:48] in the beginning of the third chapter of [73:50] Genesis of Batius, we're told the story [73:53] of Adam and Eve eating from the tree of [73:55] knowledge. I actually write about this [73:57] in my book on uh on on the part of [73:59] Borius, the history behind this as well. [74:02] Jody, our editor, is gonna slam the book [74:04] on the screen while you say that. Just [74:06] like an extra plug with like shake the [74:08] screen a little bit. Yeah. [74:10] >> So, there are a lot of questions you can [74:11] ask on this story. Some of which we've [74:13] done, some of which would be for another [74:14] time. I think the most important [74:15] question, at least for our purposes [74:17] right now, but really for Judaism, is [74:19] not how did he sin? What was the sin? I [74:22] think the most important question is [74:24] when did Adam when did this story take [74:26] place? A plain reading of the Torah says [74:29] God created the world and then Adam [74:31] sinned. [74:33] The Talmud actually does the reverse. It [74:36] dates this story, the corruption of the [74:39] world and this grand sin. It says this [74:42] was a part of the creation story. And I [74:45] think something really important emerges [74:48] from that. And this is what I actually [74:49] tell my students. There's a very big [74:52] difference between reading that God [74:54] created the world absolutely perfect and [74:57] then you know days later, months later, [75:00] years later, whenever you date the story [75:02] afterwards, man corrupted God's perfect [75:05] world. [75:07] There's a big difference between that [75:08] telling and the Jewish telling which is [75:12] part of creation itself included failure [75:16] and this disappointment. And the biggest [75:18] difference to emerge from it is where [75:21] does perfection lie in your life. Is [75:24] perfection something that you look at as [75:26] a in the past or is perfection always a [75:30] future state that you are reaching [75:32] towards? The students that I have in [75:34] Yeshua University who are brilliant and [75:37] amazing but like many Orthodox Jews are [75:41] leaving in they're at the transitional [75:44] stage of institutional Jewish life. And [75:47] I think that a lot of people make a very [75:49] basic error where they assume that the [75:52] best years of their life were when they [75:54] were in yeshiva, when they were in [75:56] seminary, when they were, you know, the [75:58] best kid in 12th grade, when they were [76:01] the star of their high school, of their [76:03] yeshiva or whatever it was, and they [76:06] live the rest of their life trying to [76:08] reclaim that lost ideal and that lost [76:11] path. [76:11] >> Nostalgia is a drug, right? [76:13] >> Exactly. That is not the Jewish telling. [76:15] Perfection is always a future state. And [76:17] I tell my students, my braha to all of [76:20] you is that your best religious years [76:23] should always remain ahead of you. Now [76:25] you may have years ahead of you. You may [76:27] never be able to learn that many hours [76:30] like you did. You may not have that as [76:32] many responsibilities or little [76:34] responsibility as you do right now. [76:36] There are a lot of reasons you could be [76:37] nostalgic about it. But it pains me that [76:41] for a lot of people and I see this [76:42] because of the the year in Israel and [76:45] like that the inspiration which is [76:46] wonderful but there's that comes at an [76:49] awful cost. The cost is that for a lot [76:51] of people what they think of their best [76:54] religious years, they're thinking when [76:56] they were by themselves without nobody [76:59] bothering them in Yeshiva. And I that [77:02] that's not that [77:03] >> we were told that by older folks where [77:04] when they came to Israel, they said, [77:06] "You guys don't realize that you're [77:07] living the best years of your life." [77:09] >> That breaks my heart and I heard that [77:11] too and I think it's a terrible mistake [77:13] and I would never say that to somebody. [77:15] God forbid. God forbid. Could you say [77:19] this was the years where I was able to [77:21] learn the most Torah without [77:23] distraction? You could say that. That's [77:24] a fact. I mean that that that could be a [77:26] fact. But say these are the best years [77:28] of your life. Something bothers me about [77:30] that. I want the best years of your life [77:33] to be in in in 10 next year in 10 years [77:36] from now when you've got little kids and [77:38] you you're trying to complete the do on [77:40] an airplane while you're learn how to [77:43] love that. Don't don't retreat to the [77:46] utopia of your past. Build a future [77:49] state of perfection for your own life [77:51] and for your family. That is the message [77:53] I tell my students. [77:55] >> I have a tremendous fear of death. [77:58] >> Always have. Not not [77:59] >> that's so interesting. [78:00] >> Not from a suicidal just the idea of not [78:03] being scares me [78:05] >> to to to [78:07] death awareness. I think about it more [78:09] often than I should. I have made my [78:11] peace with with [78:12] >> Oh, okay. Interesting. you know that so [78:15] you know medication does help me in some [78:17] ways. So, I once asked a Rebby or a [78:22] therapist, I forget which, [78:25] that look at that person. He's 90 years [78:28] old. He's so happy. [78:31] Why is he so happy? [78:34] Doesn't he wish he was 20? And he says [78:38] to me, "You're looking at a 90-year-old. [78:42] The 90-year-old is looking at his [78:44] children, his grandchildren, how far [78:47] he's come as a person, the the memories [78:50] he has, the memories he's continuing to [78:52] build. The Kaneka party where everyone's [78:54] around him and he's built, you know, up [78:57] until that point, he's never had this [78:59] many grandchildren and this much to [79:01] celebrate and this many graduations and [79:04] bar mitzvah and bris and great [79:06] grandchildren. To him, that's [79:08] everything. Thi this is what I think the [79:11] Talmud in Brahos describes as [79:17] which literally means you should see [79:19] your world in your lifetime. [79:22] But what I think the Talmud is really [79:23] transmitting is your world in your [79:27] lifetime. You should be able to taste [79:29] the eternity of your life and how [79:33] transcendent your own life is while it [79:36] is still unfolding. And I think you see [79:38] that in older people. I think, you know, [79:41] the happiest person I ever met, very [79:43] similar, was my my my bubby died when [79:46] she was in her 70s and my Zadeie got [79:48] remarried when he was 80 years old to [79:51] somebody named Mildrid Shapiro. She [79:54] actually died this past year. She was [79:56] well over a hundred. She was the [79:58] happiest, most worked out person I've [80:00] ever interacted with, and it is exactly [80:03] because of what you said. to the very [80:05] end of her life. She she had an [80:08] effortless joy. She didn't even have to [80:10] try because her joy came from Mecca her [80:13] world from from my life. I think the [80:17] ultimate pain that people have is they [80:19] spend their entire life trying to live [80:22] and reach out somebody else's life. It's [80:24] why [80:26] when when the Mishna in Perk Aos talks [80:29] about jealousy and honor and and and [80:33] sexual desire, it says what does it do? [80:36] It takes a person out of this world. It [80:39] it doesn't mean we we've all had all all [80:43] of those things. We're still in this [80:44] world. No, it takes you out of your [80:45] world. The ultimate blessing that we [80:49] could have is [80:52] believing in your own life. And the [80:54] ultimate curse is not believing in your [80:57] life. Is hating your life. Is wanting [80:59] somebody else's life of spending your [81:01] entire adulthood in whatifs alternative [81:04] history. Ah, I should have lived in a [81:06] different community. I should have [81:07] married somebody else. I should have [81:08] gone into a different profession. I wish [81:10] I didn't do this. I wish I did do this. [81:12] and they're living their entire life in [81:14] an imaginary world in an alternative [81:17] history imagining what would have [81:19] happened if the civil war turned out [81:20] differently. I mean it's it it belongs [81:22] in the same universe as those questions. [81:26] Instead what truly happy people I think [81:29] the commonality is they have faith. They [81:32] believe in their own life. They said [81:34] this this is what I've worked towards to [81:36] have it right here and right now. And I [81:38] think that that is why the happiest [81:40] people you are ever you will ever meet [81:42] are usually older people and they have [81:45] eternity right in front of their eyes. [81:47] You mentioned earlier and we're going to [81:49] wrap up because I know you have like [81:51] three events tonight, but [81:54] one of the things that people fill that [81:57] void with is news. Chasing [82:01] what's the latest hawk, right? Oh yeah. [82:04] looking at news websites, WhatsApp [82:06] groups, getting news, filling that void [82:10] with what's the latest and the Pelleoitz [82:14] who writes beautifully [82:17] says and I was so blown away by it. He [82:20] says one of the things to ignore in life [82:22] is current happenings [82:26] current. He says most basically his [82:28] message is most of it doesn't impact [82:32] your life one way or the other. So [82:34] ignore it. It it's a distraction from [82:37] from who you are as a person. So much so [82:41] that if someone asked you to listen to [82:44] 1010 Winds traffic report from 2 and 1/2 [82:46] years ago today, [82:48] >> you would look at them like they're [82:49] crazy. Yeah. [82:50] >> Right. Yes. [82:51] >> And I'm not saying you shouldn't know [82:52] what the weather is going to be [82:54] tomorrow. Cuz that does have an impact [82:56] on on your life. But some of these [82:59] WhatsApp groups for news, someone said, [83:01] "Hey, I'm starting a a news WhatsApp. [83:03] It's going to be all the news you need [83:05] to know, not any of that other hack and [83:08] garbage." And I said, "Do you realize [83:10] that shouldn't exist?" [83:13] And and I I bring that up because I [83:16] think I'd be remiss if I didn't say to [83:20] people that are chasing [83:23] the the thought of getting in touch with [83:25] their being. How much of your life is [83:27] filled with with Instagram stories, [83:30] WhatsApp statuses? I'm so surprised. I I [83:33] mean, I do post to WhatsApp statuses, [83:35] but I don't look at any others anymore. [83:36] It's just too much. But sometimes I'll [83:39] take a peek as to who's looking at my [83:41] WhatsApp status and I go him WhatsApp [83:44] got him like the eight got him. It [83:46] started as a as a messaging uh app for [83:49] people that we can talk to in Israel and [83:52] how it slowly lured people in to forget [83:55] the moment and just robotically click. I [83:58] think we're distracted by technology in [84:01] a way that [84:03] goes handinhand with your message of [84:06] chasing what's real. The desire the [84:09] desire that you seek that you've spoken [84:11] about [84:11] >> discipline desire [84:13] >> discipline desire. Yeah. [84:14] >> I think you are being too kind to the [84:17] WhatsApp groups and specifically and I [84:20] hate to say this from WhatsApp groups. [84:23] from WhatsApp groups and there are many [84:25] different kinds but some of the things [84:27] that I have seen on there being shared [84:30] the character assassination I've been [84:32] character assassinated on a Jewish [84:34] WhatsApp group I assure you nobody [84:36] reached out to me to apologize nobody [84:38] reached out to say I'm sorry [84:41] it is I think the ugliest most [84:43] disgusting part of our community and I [84:46] would urge everybody [84:49] everybody if you're in one WhatsApp [84:50] group you're probably in more than one [84:52] boil it down to one. Get get rid of the [84:55] other ones. And everyone is in a [84:57] WhatsApp group that they know that they [85:00] know is toxic for their soul. The only [85:03] rise the only reaction it gets out of [85:05] you, I hope, is disgust. Uh I am [85:08] disgusted by them because it pains me [85:10] that this is a public-f facing part of [85:12] our community that we're we're [85:15] comfortable with. I mean, forget about [85:18] the comment sections and the back and [85:20] forth. There are different ways to run [85:21] them or whatever it is. But it's a [85:24] blight in our community. It is the [85:26] perversion of mimemetic desire which [85:29] should be our collective community [85:31] hoping and longing for redemption, for [85:35] wholeness, for goodness. And it is it is [85:39] genuinely heartbreaking and I just I I [85:41] think you were being too too kind on it [85:43] and you were you were [85:46] this is a from problem. This is a this [85:48] is this is what happens with unchecked [85:50] mimemetic desire and close-knit [85:52] community. Uh the lack of [85:55] responsibility, accountability, just [85:58] basic humanity that I've seen in let me [86:01] just be very clear, some not all, but [86:04] even the best are still like okay. [86:06] They're just not disgusting. It saddens [86:09] me deeply. And we should all want more [86:12] from ourselves. We should want more from [86:14] our community. And I would beg and [86:17] implore people m I'm not delete [86:20] WhatsApp. I have WhatsApp. No one's [86:21] deleting WhatsApp. Exit a couple of [86:24] those groups. Find three groups that [86:27] only that only just it only elicits [86:31] jealousy, pain, frustration, [86:34] eye rolls, whatever it is. Leave them [86:36] right now. I'll do it right after we get [86:38] off the call. I I just thought of a [86:39] group. I'm like, I should get out of [86:40] that one myself right now. If someone [86:42] wants to email you and character [86:44] assassinate you directly uh or too many [86:48] ways unfortunately or has a common [86:50] question um what are the best ways to [86:52] get in touch with you and and what for [86:54] someone discovering you uh what should [86:56] they know about some of your work uh [86:58] that podcast books things like that? [87:00] >> Sure. I'm I'm fairly active on social [87:03] media and I I do try to respond to [87:05] messages on social media and you can [87:07] find me there uh dbash ideas. I'm really [87:09] only primarily active on X. what used to [87:12] be called uh Twitter. I don't I actually [87:14] don't post to WhatsApp statuses. I have [87:18] a podcast of my own where we talk about [87:21] pressing uh issues of Jewish identity in [87:24] the modern world called 1840. [87:26] >> What do you got brewing? What's [87:27] something project? Little something [87:29] something. [87:30] >> I like that somebody came up to me. I [87:33] just shared this. Somebody came up to me [87:35] and said, you know, when you go to [87:38] Lakewood, no matter what the speech is [87:40] or the event is, it always comes back to [87:42] Torah. No matter what's happening, it's [87:44] to that's a good message. They said, [87:46] when I listen to 1840, it doesn't matter [87:48] what you're talking about, what's going [87:49] on, it always comes back to tshoua, to [87:51] self transformation, self-discovery. [87:53] That was a high praise. So, what's going [87:55] on? What's going on now? What's going on [87:57] future? Tshua, tshoua, tshoua. coming [88:00] back to our most essential self, coming [88:02] back to connecting to the collective [88:04] Jewish people, connecting to godliness, [88:06] to divinity. That is that is the mission [88:09] of 1840. [88:11] >> And you have people imitating you. I've [88:12] seen videos. Ammy, I believe. [88:14] >> Oh, Ammy Co. I'm still uh recovering [88:17] from that imitation. It was a great [88:18] imitation, but I want to make a note. [88:20] >> Yeah. [88:21] >> The best imitators of me and I think the [88:23] be Ammy was phenomenal and is [88:25] phenomenal. And you could put that clip [88:27] on because he did a good job. [88:28] >> I will. will show it. [88:29] >> Dealing with Jewish particularities and [88:32] all of the things that the Baharim are [88:33] dealing with. I find that if you're [88:36] going to hone in on the particular issue [88:39] and you're talking about the Sha Titv in [88:41] particular and the messianic era in [88:44] which people are striving to find a way [88:46] to these Bakarim are doing nothing but [88:49] pounding chill every single day. They're [88:51] gaining weight like crazy. The best [88:54] imitation I've ever seen is um somebody [88:58] named [89:00] >> That's so cool. He has so many [89:01] imitators. He doesn't even know all [89:04] >> No, I just forgot his his first name and [89:06] I love him so much and I feel bad that I [89:08] remember. Zans is his last name and it [89:10] kills me that I forgot his first name. [89:11] It's literally escaped me. I have his [89:12] face. But the key to imitating me and I [89:15] just want cuz there's nothing more [89:16] flattering as somebody who grew up and [89:18] has seen more or less every episode of [89:20] Saturday Night Live. It like means a lot [89:22] to me. That's when you know is you got [89:24] to fidget with your glasses more. I'm a [89:25] big gl that's my tell. Like if I'm [89:27] talking I'm just like [89:29] >> really you didn't touch your face a ton [89:30] in [89:31] >> I've been sitting on my hands to try to [89:32] avoid that. I'm not trying to feed I [89:34] didn't know that we were trying to feed [89:35] the imitators but once we're addressing [89:37] the imitators you got to work with the [89:39] glasses. That's where the key is. It's [89:41] wild. Ami is a real talent. [89:44] Rebavid, thank you so much for coming [89:47] down sharing. Uh, we'll put links to the [89:49] books, to the podcast, anything else you [89:52] want us uh to put in there. And what's [89:55] cool about these episodes is while we're [89:57] talking right now, I can look it up [89:59] after, someone's listening to our first [90:01] episode. So, this content is [90:04] >> hopefully going to last many years. And [90:06] and if someone is listening to this in [90:07] the year 2035 or 2045, I think the [90:10] message is going to remain true. My [90:14] final words, I call my book, I read this [90:16] over shabas because the time where we [90:19] allow ourselves to be liberated from [90:22] desire itself is shabas. And that is why [90:25] I'm so proud to be a part of that's why [90:27] I've dedicated everything that I do to [90:29] really sharing the messaging, the life, [90:32] the practices of the Jewish community, [90:34] specifically the Orthodox Jewish [90:36] community, to broadcast it to the entire [90:38] world. And the beauty of Shabas is [90:40] something that we should not uh should [90:43] not forget. [90:45] We shouldn't become distracted to it. We [90:47] have a gym every single week from [90:49] liberating from desire and it's called [90:51] Chabus. Take advantage of it. [90:53] >> Beautiful. We'll see you in 5 years. [90:56] >> Five years. [90:57] >> Okay. See you then. [90:58] >> Okay. We just uh finished the recording. [91:01] Rebid, are you gonna leave the WhatsApp [91:02] group right now? [91:04] >> There's a WhatsApp group? Okay. We're [91:06] doing it right now. I'm going to leave a [91:07] WhatsApp group right now. [91:09] >> Okay. Is there [91:10] >> I'm not I'm not saying which one it is. [91:12] You know this is a problem when I got [91:14] too many WhatsApp messages. [91:16] >> No, it wants you to turn on the alerts. [91:18] I I always say no. I don't have WhatsApp [91:20] alerts turned on. But is there a braha a [91:22] blessing you're supposed to make when
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