Transcript [00:00] [music] [00:03] Hi friends and welcome to the 1840 [00:05] podcast where each month we [music] [00:06] explore a new topic balancing modern [00:08] sensibilities with traditional [00:10] sensitivities to give you new approaches [00:12] to timeless [music] Jewish ideas. I'm [00:15] your host David Bashevkin and today we [00:18] are exploring continuing [music] [00:19] our exploration of Tshoua. Thank you so [00:22] much to our annual sponsors. I'm so [00:24] grateful for their continued friendship [00:26] and support. my dearest friends Danielle [00:29] and Meera Stokar. I'm so grateful for [00:32] our relationship over all these years. [00:34] Thank you so much. This podcast is part [00:36] of a larger exploration of those big [00:38] juicy Jewish ideas. So, be sure to check [00:41] out 1840.org. That's 18forty.org [00:45] where you can also find videos, [00:46] articles, recommended readings, and [00:48] weekly emails. First, you may have [00:51] noticed that there is a new intro music [00:54] to 1840, which is like honestly like it [00:59] kind of like breaks my heart a little [01:01] bit. I love the last music. We've had [01:03] for those longtime listeners, three [01:06] different intro songs to 1840. The first [01:09] was um the great Klesmer musician Andy [01:14] Statman, a surfing slavitz. That's the [01:17] old school. You can remember those [01:18] episodes. It's from the original the [01:20] original the original group. Uh now uh [01:24] we've been using the beautiful song [01:27] Shommer Israel from my incredible [01:29] friends at Omeadver. Omadver was [01:32] incredible band. One day we will do an [01:34] 1840 behind the music on Ome. That is my [01:38] guarantee. most importantly the lead [01:41] singer of Omeadavver uh my dear friend [01:44] Fagenbam Malash Shalom who passed away [01:46] but so many of the band members are [01:48] still there and my dream to this very [01:50] day is the first 1840 celebration will [01:54] be God willing an in-person Ome reunion [01:58] concert but now we are moving on because [02:02] we moved to this music honestly post [02:04] October 7th when I felt like we needed [02:08] something a little more a little less [02:09] jazzy and a little bit more somber, a [02:12] little bit more serious. Uh, we're still [02:14] serious. We're not quite as somber, but [02:16] we are moving to a new intro music that [02:19] is created by one of the Omic bandmates, [02:22] my dearest friend from our time in [02:24] yeshiva, though I know him from way [02:26] before then, Ari Yablak, an incredible [02:29] musician, human being, father, a [02:32] wonderful husband, incredible person, [02:34] uh, really, really wonderful. and he we [02:36] commissioned and asked Ari to develop [02:38] new intro music for 1840. We hope you [02:41] enjoy it. It took us about I don't know [02:43] a year to figure out which of the three [02:45] options he gave us we should actually [02:47] use. Hope you enjoy it. Can't wait to [02:49] hear from you. Today's episode is [02:52] incredibly special. It began with an [02:54] email that I got from a past 1840 guest. [02:58] though his reputation and contribution [03:00] to the Jewish people far exceeds uh our [03:04] uh our platform though I'm very proud of [03:06] our work and that is uh my teacher [03:09] someone who has been a mentor and a [03:10] figure in my life for really close to 20 [03:13] years uh probably exactly 20 years and [03:16] that is Rberl Gersonfeld Riverl [03:19] Gersonfeld who we had on this very tisha [03:22] series many many years ago is the leader [03:24] of Mon Schlommo and Mahon Yakov an [03:27] incredible thinker, one of the leaders [03:29] in the Jewish outreach movement and [03:31] somebody who you should be familiar with [03:33] because his thought, his ideas, his [03:36] character is something that I know has [03:38] transformed and enhanced my life and I [03:40] have no doubt that it will enhance [03:41] yours. Out of the clear blue sky, we [03:43] have not really been in touch all that [03:45] much since he came on 1840 so long ago, [03:48] I got an email from R. Gersonfeld [03:51] introducing me to the wife of one of his [03:54] students and that is Tanya [03:56] Freedellander. Tanya Freedellander is an [03:59] incredible incredible person. Her [04:02] husband as she has shared previously was [04:05] diagnosed with early onset Parkinson's [04:08] with a very serious cognitive dementia, [04:11] a a dementia that is rapidly uh [04:14] deteriorating uh her husband's life. [04:18] um Rev. Gersianfeld introduced me to her [04:20] and said, "This is somebody who you may [04:21] want to consider of having on one of [04:24] your series." He was actually thinking [04:25] about a different series and when, you [04:28] know, if Gersfeld reached out to me, I'm [04:30] going to take that extraordinarily [04:32] seriously. And I met Tanya and honestly, [04:38] I think my heart is still in a thousand [04:40] pieces from marveling at who she is as a [04:43] person and from her own story. And it [04:45] became very clear to me that this is [04:47] much more than a story of loss. This is [04:51] much more than a story of a marriage or [04:54] a life interrupted. I really do believe [04:57] with my heart that this is the essence [04:59] in many ways of tshoua. I mentioned this [05:03] on the episode. you know, somebody who's [05:05] dealing with difficulty, you wouldn't [05:07] think tshuva. Or if somebody would say, [05:09] okay, this has to do with tshoua, you [05:11] probably might say to yourself, okay, it [05:13] probably means like when something bad [05:14] happens, you should probably repent. You [05:16] should probably say, okay, I'm being [05:18] punished. I I don't mean it in that way. [05:21] And that's not really how I live my [05:24] life, though. I'm certainly always [05:26] interpreting my life and really paying [05:28] attention to it. you know, something bad [05:30] happens in the world, I don't interpret [05:32] it as as punishment. I think the [05:35] difficulty that that I continue to [05:38] struggle with and that really Tanya, I [05:40] mean this in a very serious way, open my [05:42] eyes up to is how to build capacity for [05:46] the life that you're already living. How [05:48] to make room, how to find strength to [05:51] actually carry on in your own life. And [05:54] I believe that this is the absolute [05:56] heart of tshoua. And I say so because of [05:59] something that I mentioned within the [06:00] episode, but I want to say upfront [06:02] something that I heard from my Rebby who [06:04] passed away this year, Rev. Ezra [06:06] Newberger. I've mentioned this on a few [06:09] different occasions. You know, Rev. Ezra [06:11] was my Rebby. Like I only realized it [06:15] after he passed. Like this is my Rebi [06:16] for how I actually built my relationship [06:19] with my very sense of self. And Ezra [06:23] would always bring people to his house [06:24] on Friday night. All the students would [06:27] go there, they would sing songs and he [06:30] would talk about like yourself. He would [06:33] talk about like building a sense of [06:34] character, building a sense of of self [06:37] in this world. And one year, right [06:41] during this time, you know, during that [06:43] lol preh high holiday season, Rab Ezra [06:46] said something so incredibly profound. [06:49] He said, "The main focus of tshoua [06:52] should be on our expectations." What did [06:56] he mean by that? He continued, he said, [06:58] "For many people, their tshoua that they [07:01] need to have, their almost like [07:02] repentance, their transformation [07:05] is their expectations are way too high [07:07] of what they think life is going to be, [07:10] what they think life should feel like. [07:12] They need to be more practical, more [07:14] pragmatic, more in line with what life [07:17] actually is. It's not necessarily [07:21] utopian. It's not necessarily like it's [07:24] not every day is not Disneyland. You [07:26] have to have realistic expectations for [07:28] what life is going to be. But then he [07:30] looked at all of us and said there's [07:31] another form of tshoua that we need on [07:33] our expectations. For many of us, our [07:35] expectations are too low. We don't [07:38] expect enough from ourselves. We want to [07:40] have satisfaction and meaning and we're [07:42] not willing to put in the work to [07:44] actually find and discover and create [07:46] that meaning in our own lives. But we [07:49] all struggle with this. The act of [07:51] tshoua every year when we come before [07:53] rash shana should really be a reflection [07:56] of what are what are our expectations [07:58] for life itself. In some areas our [08:01] expectations are way too high. In some [08:04] expect in some areas our expectations [08:06] are way too low. We we need to demand [08:08] more of ourselves. But ultimately life [08:11] is in the middle of finding that [08:13] alignment between the life that we have [08:15] and the expectations and ambitions of [08:17] where we can bring it. [08:20] There is a second component to this [08:22] introduction of why I think this story [08:26] is at the heart of tshoua and it is a [08:29] conversation that I once had with a [08:31] mentor of mine, someone who I've quoted [08:32] many times on this podcast and that is a [08:35] conversation that I had with my dear [08:38] mentor, dare I say friend. He would [08:40] probably correct me and say we're not [08:42] friends [08:43] because he's he he's real and he's [08:45] tough. uh and that is Moses Bane who [08:49] served as the president of the Orthodox [08:52] Union. I grew up many of my formative [08:55] years of yeshiva when I would come home [08:57] I would try as often as possible to have [08:59] a meal at his Shabas table and really [09:02] you know the same way that a lot of my [09:03] sense of self was developed at Reb [09:05] Ezra's Friday night Shabas table. uh a [09:07] lot of myself, you know, in the later [09:09] Yeshiva years and even after I left [09:12] Yeshiva in Baltimore was at Mushbane [09:14] Shabas table and Mushbane he conducts an [09:16] incredible Shabas table. There there's [09:19] debate spirited friends become enemies, [09:21] enemies become friends. I mean they're [09:23] they're rockous in many ways and he [09:25] sometimes throws out a question uh often [09:28] times and some of the questions are [09:30] theological, sometimes the questions [09:31] have to do with the Jewish community. [09:33] And this time he threw out a question. [09:35] And the question he asked is, "What do [09:37] you think is the most distinguishing [09:38] characteristic of a leader? What do you [09:40] think is the one characteristic that [09:43] distinguishes leaders and like sets them [09:45] apart to really allow them to do their [09:47] work?" And different people said maybe [09:49] focus, brilliance, genius, [09:52] um you know, all sorts of answers. And [09:54] he threw out the following and it has [09:56] stayed with me ever since. He said the [09:59] most important characteristic you need [10:01] for Jewish leadership is one word [10:04] capacity. How much capacity do you have? [10:07] How much are you able to contain? How [10:10] much are you able to kind of put on your [10:12] shoulders? And almost a refrain [10:15] throughout my marriage. I always talk [10:16] about this with my wife is like we look [10:18] at each other sometimes and we're like [10:20] look we have limited capacity. You have [10:22] to deal with the capacity that you have. [10:24] And like some people have massive [10:26] capacity, some people have more limited [10:28] capacity, but the different people have [10:30] different capacities. This is an episode [10:32] about tshoua on building capacity. How [10:36] to create more capacity in our life to [10:40] carry the life right in front of us. And [10:42] that requires many times a midlife [10:45] readjustment of being able to look at [10:47] the difficulties, the challenges right [10:49] in front of us and saying, are my [10:51] expectations in line with the life in [10:54] front of me? And the second is [10:55] understanding and beginning to discover [10:58] what is the capacity that I have that I [11:00] carry? Is there a way that I could [11:02] develop more capacity? [11:05] And this is the story of Tanya [11:07] Freedellander. Aside from her own tshoua [11:10] journey, which we very much cover, this [11:12] is a story of tshoua on expectations of [11:16] building capacity and no matter what the [11:18] challenge in front of you, the ability [11:21] to take it head on with both its joy and [11:24] its sadness, the entirety of the [11:26] emotional spectrum. It is my absolute [11:29] privilege and pleasure to introduce our [11:31] conversation with Tanya Freedellander. [11:35] Tanya, I am so excited to have you as a [11:37] guest. I recently got an email from a [11:40] mutual mentor of ours, Rber Barl [11:42] Gersonfeld, somebody who I hold in [11:43] incredibly high esteem, who introduced [11:46] us and to share your story, which is [11:49] really a religious journey compounded by [11:52] some very difficult personal challenges. [11:56] Tanya Freedellander, thank you so much [11:58] for joining me today. [11:59] >> Great to be here. Thank you for having [12:01] me. So, the first thing I noticed, I'll [12:03] be honest, uh, when we spoke on the [12:05] phone very briefly, and we'll catch up [12:07] to date, but I did notice, I'll be [12:09] honest, your accent. You have a very [12:10] slight, it's very like dig regal. [12:12] [laughter] It feels like a very regal [12:14] accent, and I I I noticed it. I didn't [12:18] ask you then, but tell me, where are you [12:20] from? I think your upbringing is is a [12:23] very unique part of this story. [12:25] >> Yes. Yes. So, um, I was born in Israel. [12:28] I grew up in Austria in Vienna and I [12:31] lived in England for 12 years and for [12:33] the past 12 years in America. [12:35] >> Wow. And the family you were born into, [12:37] you were telling me there's a there's a [12:39] Hebrew term that I've always liked. It's [12:41] called a Ben Zakunim. [12:43] >> Yeah. [12:43] >> Meaning you were you were a very like a [12:47] late child from somebody who was older. [12:49] You said your father's already in his [12:50] 60s [12:51] >> when you were born. But what I found [12:53] really remarkable is that, you know, you [12:56] look at you, you wouldn't guess it. Your [12:58] father, because you are a Ben Zukunim, [13:01] you were, he had you quite late. Your [13:03] father was a Holocaust survivor. [13:05] >> Yeah. [13:06] >> Growing up, explain to me the religious [13:10] world that you grew up in. What was it [13:12] like your childhood? You're being raised [13:15] by somebody who experienced the [13:17] Holocaust. Um, and you're being raised [13:21] in a religious in in a in a Jewish [13:24] world. And I'm curious, describe to me [13:26] the Jewish world. You you weren't [13:27] raised, you know, formally orthodox or, [13:30] you know, observant in the classical [13:32] sense, but tell me a little bit about [13:35] the religious world you were raised in. [13:37] >> Yeah. [clears throat] So, um, my parents [13:39] were not, um, observant Jews, but very [13:42] connected to Hashem, and they just, um, [13:45] they just really didn't know that much [13:48] about the Torah, observant life. And I [13:51] grew up with a lot of love for Hashem. [13:54] So, even though we didn't know the the [13:56] Halahos, um, my parents made it very um, [14:01] you know, very very important for us to [14:04] know our Jewish identity. And um we only [14:07] allowed to marry Jewish. And there were [14:09] certain values that um were very very [14:13] strong. Um and also we she always sent [14:17] us to like Jewish um you know youth [14:19] groups and we went to Berkea and um so [14:22] always to make sure that we are [14:24] connected to our heritage especially [14:26] living and growing up in Austria. I went [14:28] to public school. So I experienced [14:31] firsthand anti-semitism [14:34] and um you know it's interesting when [14:37] people don't you know sometimes you [14:39] forget that you're Jewish and in Austria [14:41] it's impossible to forget you know you [14:44] they go and remind you and you know that [14:46] you're different I always grew up [14:48] knowing [14:49] >> I'm different I'm different to to the [14:51] rest and I very much felt a sense of [14:55] like that that pint the Jewish nama and [14:59] I believe That's from that's from my [15:00] parents. They they very much made um [15:03] sure that we know that we are proud [15:05] Yidden and that we um that we should [15:08] never forget that. [15:09] >> So I want to fast forward a little bit. [15:11] I I I always feel like the way our lives [15:15] take shape is always by going to points [15:18] of transition like major points of [15:20] transition. So I want to fast forward [15:23] and kind of transition to the first time [15:26] you were uh made aware or realize that [15:30] there is a more uh committed or a more [15:34] observant Jewish life. Yes. H [15:36] >> how did like you growing up you have a [15:38] very strong Jewish upbringing that was [15:40] never in question. You observe the the [15:44] holidays growing up. [15:45] >> Yes. Yeah. We went to Shaw three times a [15:46] year. We went for Pesar. [15:49] Um, yeah. [15:50] >> Like a classic traditional Jew. Like a [15:53] >> classic. And when we did something, it [15:55] always had to be the orthodox way. I [15:58] didn't know about reform, conservatism, [16:01] nothing. Everything we did had to be the [16:03] orthodox way. [16:04] >> But you just did you just came in and [16:06] out a little less frequently than [16:08] others, which is which is the European [16:10] model in many ways. That not to say that [16:12] there isn't any non-Orthodox in Europe, [16:14] but I the nonorthodox as a as a movement [16:18] is strongest for sure in North America [16:21] without even a close Yeah. [16:23] >> a close second. That I don't have [16:25] statistics to back that up, but I I I [16:27] think it's true. [16:28] >> Yes. [16:28] >> So So, but you grew up feeling like [16:32] >> like I'm a good Jew. Like you're you're [16:34] in Austria, you're going to a synagogue. [16:36] When did you realize that there is more [16:38] to do? That there's more that you could [16:40] become? Yes. So, it's very interesting [16:42] because we grew up in the second [16:44] district which is very Jewish um and I [16:48] remember we it's um Vienna is very umish [16:52] and I remember walking down the streets [16:55] and seeing [16:57] and I I saw there I don't know I saw [17:00] some tranquility and calmness in them [17:03] and there was something that I had very [17:06] deep curiosity for that life on the [17:08] other side. So I remember walking uh [17:10] down the streets and seeing them on the [17:12] other side pushing the stroll or being [17:14] together and there was something about [17:16] them that really really pulled me [17:18] towards it. I had so many questions in [17:21] my mind. However, it was almost like [17:24] they are like this and I'm like that and [17:27] there is no way to change this. I didn't [17:29] know that there was a concept as a as a [17:31] Baltoua. I didn't know you can actually [17:34] change and do more like yes this is my [17:37] life. This is, you know, how I grew up [17:40] and this is how they grew up. [17:41] >> And it's nice. You get to see them. It [17:42] looks nice, but I'm living in my life [17:44] and they're living theirs. So, [17:45] >> Exactly. [17:45] >> So, when did you at what point in your [17:48] life did you kind of realize maybe [17:50] you're it's the first time that you you [17:52] see the the outreach movement or you [17:54] started getting exposed to Jews. I mean, [17:57] you saw Jews who were living differently [17:58] than you. So when does it first dawn [18:00] upon you that like you kind of can [18:04] change radically change the station of [18:07] your religious life? [18:08] >> Yes. Um so that was actually at [18:10] university. I was at university in [18:12] England. I was in law school [18:14] >> um near Newcastle in the north of [18:16] England and I remember I was one of the [18:20] there were not many Jews there and I [18:22] used to and a lot of but I was a very [18:25] proud Jew. I remember I, you know, [18:27] coming from Austria, I was like a very [18:30] strong Jewish identity and love Israel [18:34] and I walked around always with my [18:36] magendavid. So people, you know, I made [18:39] it a thing that people knew that, you [18:41] know, I'm Jewish. I'm I'm different. And [18:43] so a lot of times when people had [18:45] questions, they would come to me and [18:47] they would say, why why do Jews do this [18:49] and why do Jews do that? And [18:51] >> you were like the serious Jew on campus. [18:53] >> Exactly. I was like with my magenda vit. [18:55] And for me it was like, yeah, I'm I'm [18:56] I'm the Jew. [18:58] >> I'm an authentic Jew, which you were. [18:59] >> Exactly. [19:00] >> It was much more of a feeling than [19:03] anything else. When I think about it, it [19:05] was like a Jewish feeling like just [19:07] loving Yiddish guide. You know, I [19:09] remember as a child going to shul and I [19:11] just felt a sense of safety just I'm [19:14] like in a I felt the kaduca even though [19:17] I didn't know how to dab. I remember [19:19] just opening the sitter and I felt kind [19:21] of like so sad that I didn't know what [19:23] it said and I didn't know what it meant. [19:24] read Hebrew at that point? [19:26] >> No. No. [19:26] >> But I was just touching the letters. [19:30] >> Just touching the letter. [19:31] >> That's what you do. You would sit and [19:32] you would just touch the letters. Wow. [19:34] >> I was just touch the letters and I was [19:36] just sitting there and I'm just just [19:38] connecting in my own way to touch and [19:40] talk. [19:40] >> Like a balmto story. That's like No, for [19:42] real. For real. That that's so moving. [19:44] Somebody opens up a sitter. [19:46] >> Yeah. [19:46] >> I can't I can't but I want to just touch [19:48] the letters feel connected to [19:50] >> I felt the holiness in the letters. I [19:52] felt like wow this is like kadusha it [19:55] was very much a deep deep feeling and [19:57] love for hashem and so I was just [19:59] touching and that's how I also connected [20:01] and I loved just touching the letters [20:04] and um and I saw how people were dening [20:06] and I was like wow what are they saying [20:07] what does that mean but I thought okay [20:09] like you know we moved on with yeah too [20:11] bad I'm moving on with my life it wasn't [20:13] like oh maybe I can do something about [20:16] it and actually learn it I don't know it [20:17] just didn't occur to me as a possibility [20:19] it's very interesting [20:20] >> no it It is so fascinating especially [20:24] after [20:25] you look back at life and what you [20:27] assumed was like oh that's like [20:30] >> that's the limitation that's where my [20:32] life ends and other lives begin I can't [20:34] do it [20:34] >> exactly and I actually hear it on the [20:36] other side I have a friend and she [20:38] recently said to me it didn't even occur [20:40] to me that I could go off the der like [20:44] the other way the other way she's like [20:46] that's what we did it didn't occur to me [20:48] that I can switch on and off the light [20:50] on shabas like that wasn't even an [20:52] option. It didn't even occ and for me it [20:54] was the other way. It didn't even occur [20:55] to me that I could learn about this. [20:57] >> It's such an interesting comparison the [21:00] way that the right type of education [21:04] almost sets the limits of your entire [21:06] universe. Sometimes it could be very [21:08] positive where you have a rich Jewish [21:10] identity and observance where like not [21:12] having shabas like that's where I it's [21:14] unimaginable. Meaning [21:16] >> sometimes people ask me they almost get [21:18] upset at the answer I give them. And [21:19] they say, "Why do you somebody why do [21:21] you keep Shabas?" And they want answers, [21:22] you know, the rabbis, the they they or [21:26] God or like and I'm just like cuz I need [21:28] Shabas. Like it's it's it's [21:31] >> I'll be it's like I just I need it. [21:34] >> It's me. It's like I don't know like I [21:36] don't know where I am. Like you feel a [21:38] little naked without having Shabas in [21:40] the week. Even when I travel, I'm not at [21:42] home for Shabas. [21:43] >> The whole week is upside down. So I it's [21:46] so interesting that you kind of are [21:48] looking and you're staring at the [21:50] limitations of your own religious [21:51] trajectory. I guess this is as far as [21:53] we'll go. We'll touch the letters. [21:54] >> I didn't even know it was a limitation. [21:56] >> You didn't even know it was a [21:57] limitation. [21:57] >> No, [21:58] >> this is what life is. This is what it [22:00] feels like to be a Jew. [22:01] >> That that's what it felt for me. That's [22:02] what being Jewish [22:04] >> was. This is what it is. Yeah. That's [22:06] what it is. And that's how far I can go. [22:08] And sometimes when I used to because I [22:09] was in Newcastle, I saw the girls from [22:11] Gates Head and I was sitting there [22:13] thinking to myself, I wish that you knew [22:16] that I'm one of you. [22:18] And and what's so Gates Head, just for [22:21] listeners who don't know, is in [22:23] especially in England is a very serious [22:26] I don't love the term, but what what [22:28] would probably one of the few places [22:30] that could correctly be called [22:32] ultraorththodox. I don't like the term, [22:34] but like it's like, but it's like it's [22:36] it's jet powered. It's like [22:38] >> and it felt so strange for me. They saw [22:40] me and, you know, they wouldn't know who [22:41] I am, but I saw them and I was like, [22:43] >> I'm so happy. [22:46] >> I'm one of you. [laughter] [22:47] >> So, you're you're at this point. You're [22:48] touching the letters. You're kind of [22:51] accepting the reality of your life. And [22:54] there's a lot of really good Jewish [22:57] content and culture to your life. Like, [22:59] you're deeply Jewish. [23:00] >> Exactly. when do you when do you first [23:03] see the opportunity to literally step [23:06] outwards from from the from the universe [23:09] that you've been handed? [23:10] >> Right. And I I and I think looking back [23:12] is was that for me being Jewish was was [23:15] kind of like it was an identity. So then [23:18] people asked me why do Jews do this and [23:20] why do Jews do that? And I was like um [23:23] that's a good question. I don't know. [23:25] And then I started to feel like a [23:27] hypocrite cuz I'm like I'm this proud [23:29] Jew but I don't have the answers to [23:31] their questions. And then I remember [23:34] thinking to myself that I should have [23:36] that it's it's I have an arayas to have [23:40] a responsibility to to give them the [23:44] answers not just for myself but I'm [23:46] representing they I might be the only [23:48] Jew that they will ever meet and and so [23:50] I should have the answers. So I took it [23:52] upon myself to find the answers and then [23:55] I thought okay I also want to have those [23:57] answers for the future generation for my [23:59] for my own children and it didn't even [24:01] occur to me that learning and practicing [24:04] goes hand in hand. I I took it as an [24:06] approach of like I'm going to go and [24:08] find the answers and I will give them [24:10] the answers and you know it's nothing to [24:13] do with my own implementation. [24:14] >> Exactly. Like I'm just reporting back to [24:16] you just like I spoke to the elders. [24:18] This is what the lul love is. This is [24:20] what and like and here you go. But like [24:23] me like I'm just I can't do it. Like I'm [24:25] just [24:25] >> not not about can't I am I'm Jewish. [24:27] >> Yeah. [24:28] >> You know I'm just giving you the [24:29] information. This is why we do it. [24:31] Didn't really occur to me that maybe [24:33] this applies to me too to actually [24:35] implement [laughter] this things. So [24:36] what happened was I went to I was in [24:39] Newcastle and it's across the bridge to [24:41] Gates Head. It's Mama like right across. [24:44] So I go across the [24:45] >> this law school is right near Gates [24:47] Head. It's it's Yeah, it's it's in [24:49] Sunderland. Uh Sunderland is near [24:51] Newcastle. [24:51] >> The neighborhood or the Yeshiva? [24:53] >> No. No. Um so that's a city. Sunderland [24:55] in Newcastle. There are cities and they [24:57] have universities. So I was studying [24:58] there but I was living in Newcastle. So [25:00] I go across the bridge to New uh to [25:02] Gates. Um and so I remember going there, [25:07] entering this ultraorththodox um [25:09] community and I went to um a bookstore [25:12] called Layman's and I just went in. I [25:15] didn't look the look. I didn't look the [25:18] type. I go in and I just said to the [25:22] person in charge, I said, "I'm here. Um, [25:24] I want to learn the Torah." [25:26] >> That's what you said. I want to learn [25:27] the Torah. [25:27] >> I want to learn the Torah. And he just [25:29] looked at me like, [laughter] [25:31] >> another one. What do we do? What do I do [25:33] with it? [25:33] >> And he said to me, he said, like, what? [25:35] >> Could you be more specific? [25:36] >> Yeah. Can you be me more specific? I [25:37] said, [25:38] >> the stories and the laws. [25:40] >> That's what you said. The stories and [25:41] the laws. [clears throat] like he didn't [25:42] have language to the stories and the [25:45] laws. [25:46] >> I'm so curious what he gave you. [25:47] >> He gave me [25:49] >> and he gave me a a sharab [25:52] book. It's like all the like the [25:54] fundamental from like waking up in the [25:56] morning. [25:57] >> Is it in English? [25:58] >> Yes. It's all in English. [26:01] >> Like a felheim contemporary. [26:03] >> Exactly. Felhea. [26:06] He gave you a kumsh [26:07] >> and you walk out and what do you start [26:10] like? and I went back to the campus and [26:12] I started to to read and eventually I [26:16] then I went to my local kabad. [26:18] >> Okay. [26:18] >> And um and that is where my journey [26:20] began. I started to ask more questions [26:22] myself and eventually when I graduated [26:26] um I I said to the rabbi I knew that at [26:30] that point after in the system is a [26:32] little different in the UK. So you have [26:34] to decide you know you have to go into [26:35] training barrista solicitor. So I um I [26:39] knew that once I start my you know my [26:42] training that it will be very hard for [26:44] me to continue learning because I saw [26:46] that the speed I was going in I will [26:48] never get to where I want to go. Um, I [26:52] was making like very little, very small, [26:54] >> too incremental. And you wanted to do [26:56] like escape velocity. You want [26:58] >> I wanted to like dive in and I was like [27:00] I want more and I was just and I [27:02] remember just feeling like I like I the [27:05] more I learned the more I realized that [27:07] I know nothing. And I said to my uh to [27:12] my rabbi, I said I I I need to go to [27:15] Israel. And and he told me which [27:17] seminary to go and I I went and Where [27:20] did you join them? [27:21] >> Mayote [27:22] >> Mayanote. Okay. So like a kabad [27:24] >> kabad seminary [27:26] >> and I fell in love with the teachings of [27:29] >> that the teachings ofidas is what made [27:32] really that was my my nama was [27:36] >> the same way and the nama of 1840 is [27:39] named after the beginning of aidic [27:41] movement of isbbitz there there's no [27:43] question about it. Here's a question I [27:44] want to ask you and and and it's kind of [27:47] subtle but but I I want to hear your [27:50] take on this. You know I grew up in the [27:53] Orthodox world. I live in the Orthodox [27:54] world. I'm a Orthodox Jew but you know [27:56] my family most of the extended family [27:59] that we have most bishkans in the world [28:01] are not orthodox. It was really just my [28:03] father who who like decided I'm sure [28:06] there are others but [snorts] a [28:08] phenomenon that you see in a lot of [28:10] families when somebody becomes more [28:14] religious is it can sometimes be [28:17] interpreted or taken as an affront or as [28:21] a um almost adversarial to the Jewish [28:26] life that they had from their parents. [28:28] Mhm. [28:29] >> And you'll sometimes see, especially in [28:31] the in the Orthodox world, in both [28:34] directions, a kid becomes much less [28:36] religious or becomes much more [28:39] religious. The parents are like, "Well, [28:41] you weren't happy with what we gave [28:42] you." Like, it's like a referendum on [28:44] us. Well, you're not happy with with the [28:46] life and the Jewish life that we gave [28:48] you. I'm curious for you what this [28:52] journey and moving forward um with your [28:55] own religious life, a real [28:57] transformation of commitment, how that [29:00] was received and how the your [29:03] relationship with your parents factored [29:05] in on your journey, especially the fact [29:07] that your father, he's older. I don't [29:10] know if he was alive at this time to to [29:12] to see the the beginning of the journey, [29:14] but he's older. He's a Holocaust [29:16] survivor. [29:18] He's a proud Jew, but at the same time, [29:20] he's looking at you kind of this radical [29:22] transformation. Did your parents at any [29:25] point or did you almost say internally [29:26] like, "What am I doing here? Am I [29:28] throwing out my what my parents gave me [29:30] and kind of upgrading for this for this [29:33] newer, shinier, whatever?" Did your [29:35] parents at any point give you [29:38] grief or or or just like, "What are you [29:41] doing here? Like, we had something good. [29:44] You could continue this way. Why? Why [29:48] transform and kind of go in a different [29:50] direction than where our family, which [29:52] is not it's pretty serious Jewish [29:55] family. We survived the Holocaust. Like, [29:58] come on now. [30:00] How did your parents and how did you [30:01] internally relate to the Yiddish kite of [30:04] your parents while going on this journey [30:07] that took you in such a radically [30:08] different direction? [30:10] >> First of all, my father um unfortunately [30:12] didn't experience me going on that path. [30:15] He he saw it but he didn't notice what [30:17] you know he didn't understand at that [30:19] point anymore you know what journey I'm [30:22] embarking on. But I was always the black [30:24] sheep in my family and I was always a [30:26] very I was a um deep thinker at the very [30:29] early age. I asked questions that nobody [30:33] my age was asking. I was very interested [30:35] in life and death and meaning and why [30:38] are we here? And I had those deep [30:40] questions but it it didn't even occur to [30:43] me that I can find those answers in [30:44] Yiddish guide. Um I was looking into [30:47] psychology and into philosophy and um [30:50] and so my mom was always observing me [30:53] and seeing that I'm different in that [30:55] way. And I think it's also I grew up [30:57] very fast because when you grow up in [30:59] the in the shadow of the Holocaust in [31:02] also living in Austria in Vienna where [31:05] so much of the history you're living [31:07] right there where so many atrocities [31:09] happened. I um I was very I was already [31:15] pulled into you know meaning and purpose [31:17] in life. And my father after you know he [31:21] was able to escape um the Holocaust at [31:24] the age of 16 he um started to build a [31:27] whole life for himself and his whole [31:29] life he didn't talk about it but he [31:32] embodied it. You know it's one thing to [31:34] say things with your words but it's [31:37] another thing to see it in action. And [31:39] my father was all about action. He was [31:42] he became an OBGYn and he brought so [31:44] many Jewish babies into into the world [31:47] and that was his mission in life. He was [31:49] like okay the Nazis took life I will [31:52] bring life and light into the world. [31:54] That was his mission and he also [31:57] delivered me and my whole all my [31:58] siblings. Yeah. [32:00] >> Wow. You got to have a lot of confidence [32:01] in your [32:02] >> Yes. [laughter] [32:03] >> Yeah. [32:04] >> So that that was his thing and for and [32:07] so I already I was wired that way. So [32:10] for my mother it wasn't as it wasn't as [32:14] surprising um that I was looking for [32:17] more depth and meaning in life and that [32:19] I I think she was very happy that I [32:22] didn't look elsewhere that I eventually [32:24] looked in my own [32:26] >> um and and so the only thing that was [32:30] really difficult for her was that she [32:32] always you know after going through so [32:34] many challenges a lot of parents want [32:36] you want to give you the life they [32:38] didn't have and so for her showing her [32:41] love month was um through giving us a [32:45] lot of things and wanting to build out [32:47] our talents. Um and so I didn't, you [32:50] know, we didn't go there yet, but a big [32:52] part of my childhood was um table [32:54] tennis. I was a ping- pong champion. [32:56] >> Oh, really? [32:57] >> Yeah. [32:57] >> Oh my goodness. [32:58] >> I played professionally. I traveled [33:00] Europe. I became Vienna champion and one [33:03] of the top Austrian players. [33:05] >> It's so funny. I know another from girl [33:08] who was like going up to Acriman to be a [33:11] table. Everybody know what everybody [33:14] tells me about. [33:14] >> We got to do a table tennis episode. [33:16] >> Yes, exactly. [33:17] >> Ping pong. That's what that right what [33:19] we call ping pong. You probably don't [33:20] like that name. [33:21] >> Exactly. [33:21] >> Had you continued on that trajectory? [33:24] Could you have been in like the [33:24] Olympics? Like where were you headed? [33:26] >> Yeah, definitely. I was um already [33:28] playing, you know, Europeanwide. I won [33:30] the Jewish Olympics as known as the [33:32] Macabi games. Oh wow. [33:34] >> Yes. And that was a first for Austria. [33:36] So I brought a lot of pride to to Jewish [33:39] pride to Austria. Something that's a [33:41] rare. So your mother That's very [33:44] interesting. So your mother, she's [33:45] watching you go on there and there's a [33:47] part of her that's like [33:48] >> you're going to lose this. [33:49] >> You're not going to be the table tennis [33:50] champion. [33:51] >> Exactly. And she also she invested so [33:52] much in extracurricular activities and [33:55] and I think for her it became almost [33:57] like that part of your life is going to [34:01] pause or stop you know when you're [34:04] entering the religious [34:05] >> and what was your internal response to [34:08] that every baluva everybody who goes [34:11] through a serious religious [34:12] transformation [34:14] lives and and really everybody has this [34:16] but it's more stark and clear when you [34:19] when you have a transformation [34:20] information midlife, but you end up [34:22] living the rest of your life with like [34:24] an unlived life of like what could have [34:26] been. [34:26] >> Yeah. [34:26] >> So, I'm curious for you that concern [34:29] that your mother raised, how did you [34:30] internally process that? Meaning, [34:33] >> you are going to have to let go and [34:35] there's very possible I mean it's it's [34:37] conceivable to be a a religious woman [34:40] who's a ping pong champion or table [34:42] tennis champion, I'm sorry. How [34:44] internally letting go of those dreams [34:46] was that hard for you or you were so [34:49] >> um so at that point I you know after you [34:53] know that was a big part of my life but [34:55] I also had you know always a dream of [34:57] raising my children and giving them all [34:59] of that. So it wasn't so much that I [35:01] was, you know, I kind of like made peace [35:03] with not going in that direction. [35:05] Especially when you become pro, a lot of [35:07] people that I was playing with, um, [35:09] eventually you drop out of school and [35:11] that was never being, you know, having [35:13] Jewish parents, education always came [35:15] first. And so a lot of people that I [35:17] traveled with, we were a group um that [35:19] competed, you know, the Austrians [35:21] against, you know, um, other countries [35:23] and in different places within Austria. [35:26] Um, a lot of times they had you come to [35:28] a certain point where you have to make a [35:30] decision either you go pro or you're [35:32] just going to always stay at the level [35:34] you're at because what got you here [35:36] won't get you there. meaning to get to [35:38] break through the 99.9 [35:41] you could you could spend the 90th [35:43] percentile you could keep living your [35:45] life but to break through like the [35:47] rarified [35:48] >> yes and that will um push you to expand [35:51] and and so if you want to enter that [35:53] next level you have to change something [35:56] in your strategy and that means you know [35:59] dropping out of school and some of my [36:00] friends actually did that and today I [36:03] see somebody still playing who is one of [36:05] the top European players and I'm Like I [36:07] used to travel with him. [36:08] >> Really? And like you see [36:10] >> Yeah. Oh, even in 2004, Dana Schlaga was [36:14] world champion. I used to practice with [36:16] him. [36:17] >> Wow. Wow. I wish I was familiar with [36:19] more table tennis names cuz that name [36:22] Verlagas is it just sounds like a joy to [36:25] even say that name. Vera. [36:27] >> Verlaga. [36:28] >> Vera Schlaga. Wow. Okay. The way you say [36:30] it makes it sound so much more [36:31] delicious. [36:32] >> And I have another colleague Daniel [36:34] Habazone. He's also one of the top. and [36:36] he we used to travel we were all [36:38] together group um and we used to travel [36:39] together not everybody ended up on such [36:42] a level but there were some of them so [36:44] going back to your question is that I [36:48] you know you can always focus on what [36:50] you're going to lack or what you're [36:52] going to miss out on or what you're [36:53] gaining and for me embracing [36:57] you know my Jewish values and such a [37:01] rich Jewish life I felt like I'm gaining [37:06] so much more than I'm losing. And yes, [37:08] sometimes I look at my children and I'm [37:10] like, "Oh, I wish you could go pro here [37:13] or you wish could I could you could go [37:15] pro there." And I'm like, but when they, [37:17] you know, say schma together at night or [37:20] when they come home and share with me [37:21] what they've learned in school or when I [37:23] do homework with them and I'm touching [37:25] those beautiful Hebrew letters, I'm [37:27] like, "This is life, you know?" And and [37:30] it gives me so much joy to see them live [37:33] the life that I didn't have. So my mom [37:36] gave me the life she didn't have. [37:38] >> I'm giving them the life. And to see [37:40] them grow up in the system is like wow [37:44] these are my children. And you know even [37:47] my mom when you know she was an opera [37:50] singer that's why we moved to Austria. [37:52] >> Wow. [37:53] >> Cuz Vienna is all about classical music. [37:55] Yeah. and she performed um at the [37:57] National Opera of Tel Aiv and for her [37:59] Vienna is the is is the top for [38:03] classical everything about Vienna is [38:04] about classical music. So we grew up [38:07] with a lot of like music in our life and [38:10] so um when she sees my children in Sne's [38:13] clothing she always says they look so [38:15] regal and that's so she appreciates [38:18] that. It's a very European style. [38:20] There's a European of just like we don't [38:23] have to descend to the lowest rung of [38:25] freedom and optionality [38:28] >> to have a little bit of decency and [38:30] dignity. [38:30] >> Exactly. And she every time I dress [38:32] them, [38:33] >> she could be like, "Wow, why are they so [38:35] covered or this?" No, she's like, "Wow, [38:37] they are so regal. Such beautiful [38:40] girls." [38:40] >> So, I I want to continue. You're in my [38:42] note and and I could be wrong. I could [38:45] be wrong on this, but it doesn't look [38:48] like you decided to build a life within [38:52] the Kabad community. I'm curious when [38:56] and why did you realize [39:00] um and I I love Kabad. I have a Tanya [39:03] right behind you. That's your name also. [39:06] Um, and I'm curious for you [39:10] why you didn't continue your religious [39:13] journey within the Kabad world and where [39:17] you kind of found community kind of the [39:21] last leg of like you got to like find a [39:24] place to live and like how you're going [39:26] to build your life. You didn't end up [39:28] becoming Kabad. I'm curious why and what [39:30] you found in the community where you [39:33] live now that attracted you because when [39:36] I just want to when you come in like I'm [39:38] imagining especially for Bali Tishua [39:42] like it's so hard to figure out like [39:44] >> what's the right community for me like [39:46] where should I be unfortunately one of [39:49] the downsides it's a positive and a [39:51] negative when you grow up within the [39:53] established Jewish world you know you [39:56] your what communities you can choose [39:58] from you kind of figure it out like [39:59] almost organically like I know people in [40:02] town, out of town, Israel, this [40:04] community, that community. You've met [40:05] everybody through the through your [40:07] yeshivas and travels. You had a much [40:09] more blank slate. Why not Kabad? And and [40:13] and tell me a little bit about how you [40:15] found the community of where you live [40:17] now. [40:17] >> Yes, it's a beautiful question. So [40:20] everything um in my spiritual journey [40:23] was in Kabad. After um after being at [40:26] Maya, I went to I lived in Kronheit. I [40:29] went to another seminary, Mahan Khana, [40:32] which is a beautiful um beautiful [40:34] seminary. And I all of my friends are [40:37] Kabad. And I, you know, that is kind of [40:40] like where my all of my spiritual [40:43] journey began. And I never stopped being [40:46] Kabad. I still I'm I'm a and I learned [40:50] his and I learned Tanya and I never [40:52] stopped. What um ended up happening is [40:56] that I as me and my husband even though [41:00] we come from different paths, it was we [41:04] both have a certain outlook and very [41:07] open outlook. We love Yidden. We just [41:09] love Jews. And I remember when me and my [41:13] husband were dating, [41:15] I told them I told him so much about [41:18] Tanya and he didn't know anything going [41:20] to Mahyakov about Tanya. M yakov just to [41:23] to jump in and explain is the yeshiva [41:25] run by Rarl Gersinfeld who introduced [41:28] both of us. It is in my opinion the gold [41:31] standard of a yeshiva for Bali tshoua to [41:36] to introduce them to the highest levels [41:38] of rigor and seriousness [41:41] always emphasizing [41:44] normaly decision making vision like [41:48] Gersel is very not into [41:50] I don't want to put words in his mouth [41:52] like we like weirdness he's like too [41:55] fanatical too weird wants you to be [41:57] integrated wholesome [41:59] I could spot Mahon Schlommo and Mahakov [42:02] graduate from 5 miles away. [42:04] >> The whole idea of Mahon Yakov is to be [42:06] an Adam Mashalam, right? Like a whole [42:08] person, right? When I met my husband, I [42:11] I I really saw that they don't just [42:14] learn not, you know, not that there is a [42:16] right or wrong, but it's not just [42:18] Gamara, they learn how to be a good [42:21] person, how to integrate into into the [42:24] world. and you know they they learn [42:27] about meos and like how to be really a [42:30] complete character trait and refinement [42:32] and how to be a a full person integrated [42:35] person and I love that and I also [42:38] noticed and it's interesting that you [42:40] say that because actually Rabbi Jacobs [42:43] who is the director of of of Mahon Yakov [42:46] he made our shed [42:47] >> Oh really? [42:48] >> Yes. And the fact that he was so open to [42:52] to doing that, knowing that my whole [42:54] spiritual journey was in Kabad was um [42:57] already showed me that how [43:00] non-judgmental and how open and loving [43:03] um [43:04] >> you did at all in the in the Kabad [43:06] world. meaning I'm curious just like my [43:09] own curiosity of how you know the the [43:13] dating world and this is not the subject [43:15] of our episode but I am curious the [43:17] dating world of Bali tshoua can be very [43:20] challenging cuz you don't come with all [43:22] the parents and friends and all this [43:24] stuff who know to set you up and oh this [43:26] type and that type and all and and it's [43:29] just like who knows you you have to just [43:30] kind of like suggest and figure it out [43:33] and two and it's matching up two people [43:35] who are figuring it out. [43:38] Did you ever cons is there a difference [43:40] or or or a reason dating within the [43:44] Kabad Baluva world versus what I would [43:46] call the more like uh traditionally [43:49] yeshiva Balchuva dating world? Are there [43:52] are there differences? And did you start [43:54] in one and move to the other? [43:55] >> Sure. Yeah, I started in one and then [43:57] moved to the other. [43:58] >> And and how would you explain it? I'm [44:00] not looking anybody who knows me, I'm [44:02] not looking to talk negatively about [44:04] anybody. I love there's a picture of the [44:06] Reba right behind there's a tani on the [44:07] other side of you. I too davin to be [44:11] able to really feel like I'm aass of the [44:13] reba when you said that it moved me very [44:15] deeply to [44:16] >> this is this is the marching orders but [44:19] I I'm just like sociologically I'm [44:21] curious exactly what was the difference [44:23] between those two worlds. [44:24] >> I was I was sitting it's a very [44:25] interesting story actually. I was [44:27] sitting um I was dating in the kabad [44:29] world and it it didn't click. It it [44:31] didn't go and I I I always ded in 770. [44:34] So I I I sat in 770 and I connected to a [44:37] a lady. She was always there and I was [44:39] always there and we started smooing and [44:41] she said to me, "He's not here." And I [44:44] looked at her and there was a knowing [44:46] and I was like, "I know." [44:50] And that is that was the year my father [44:53] started to deteriorate. So I eventually [44:55] I left Crown Heights and went back to [44:56] Vienna and it was during Pesak I started [45:01] not feeling well. It was very hard to do [45:04] PES back at home and I got fever. I [45:07] wasn't feeling well during Pesak I had a [45:11] dream and in my dream the Rebe I had a [45:15] with the Reb. I remember like as if it [45:18] was like a [45:20] Yes. And I I I remember like it was, you [45:22] know, yesterday because it was so vivid [45:24] and it was so real. [45:26] >> And I remember waking up that was p um [45:30] >> where you were in with the Yeah. and he [45:33] said certain words to me and I woke up [45:36] and it was 4:00 in the morning and I [45:38] messaged my rabbi in Israel cuz I knew [45:40] he would you know be already you know [45:42] with the time difference he would be up [45:45] and I said I just dreamt about the the [45:47] reb appeared in my dream and he said [45:49] when aid dreams about the reb it's real [45:54] the chooses to who he comes [45:57] and I knew that everything will be okay [46:02] and That was Pesar Shau. I met my [46:04] husband. [46:05] >> Wow. [46:06] >> And when I met him, it was almost like [46:08] it felt like the reb that that was the [46:10] Reb sent me on that path. This is good. [46:13] I don't have to fight it. And also when [46:15] I was dating my husband and I shared [46:17] with him about Tanya and I just needed [46:19] somebody who just accepted and is open [46:22] to that is my nishama connect. That's my [46:25] story and that's my nishama. [46:26] >> And I said to him, I remember I said to [46:28] him, it doesn't it doesn't bother you [46:29] that I talk about Tanya. And he said to [46:32] me, "Isn't it all Torah?" And I says, [46:35] "Yes." [laughter] [46:37] And that was it. And so we really [46:40] blended, we blended our love for [46:42] Yiddish, our love foridus, for [46:45] teachings. And up until today, I I I [46:47] host a weekly Tanya class in my house. [46:50] Yeah. And we we blend the [46:53] >> Tanya with Tanya. [46:54] >> Yeah. Tanya Tuesdays. [laughter] [46:58] And so it's um it's we are really [47:00] blending the the beauty of both worlds [47:02] and I think that's also a beautiful [47:04] aspect of being a balchuva. Not [47:05] everybody can do that. [47:06] >> That is that is absolutely of the [47:09] holiest things what Bali Chuva have [47:12] shaped people usually think it gives us [47:15] more Jews. No, no, no, no, no, no. It it [47:17] does. It is more participants, more this [47:20] >> ballet chuva shape Yiddish kite for [47:23] everybody because number one, it forces [47:26] from Jews to articulate what it is they [47:29] believe. You know, the same way you [47:30] started and you said Jews would ask me [47:32] and say, I don't know why we do this. I [47:33] don't know why we do this. Orthodox Jews [47:36] are the same way. People who raised from [47:38] they don't know why we do half the [47:39] things. And when you have people in the [47:41] community who are searching, it forces [47:43] you to learn how to articulate it and [47:45] learn how to articulate it to the other. [47:47] Not just how to articulate it to your [47:49] buddy who also grew up in the same [47:51] classroom, but really articulate it from [47:54] first principles. What is it that you're [47:56] involved in? [47:57] >> So it gives you a much starker, much [47:59] real, more real vision of what Yedish [48:02] Kite is about because you're coming in [48:04] with fresh eyes and you're forcing the [48:06] insiders to look at it a new as well. [48:09] >> Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I think [48:11] we spend so much time being attached [48:15] to this is right and this is wrong. This [48:18] is what we do and this is what we don't [48:20] do. [48:21] >> And I think what was so beautiful about [48:23] about the blending of our story and our [48:26] lives is that also our wedding itself, [48:29] you would see kabat with litox dancing [48:31] together. It was because it was my side [48:33] and his side and you see this unity and [48:36] it's almost like you know me being [48:38] exposed to like Missiles Sharim never [48:41] learned that in my life right like I [48:43] started to embrace it and and expand my [48:45] own you know world and he started to [48:48] expand his world and it was emerging um [48:52] emerging in in the beauty of both worlds [48:54] and I think often times we don't allow [48:56] ourselves to even go there we are so [48:58] much so much more attached to being [49:01] Right. [49:02] >> Mhm. [49:02] >> Than being curious and open and seeing [49:06] our Jewish world is so rich, you know, [49:09] and and and that is our I think that is [49:11] what made it work so beautifully because [49:13] we weren't attached to an agenda. [49:15] >> You know, I end every episode on 1840. I [49:18] say stay curious my friends. Stay cur [49:21] curiosity which it happens to be. You [49:24] know, I had a rebby. I'm just [49:26] remembering this now. He used to give a [49:28] class on Monday nights in pakaritak [49:31] which is rautner. We have a lot of [49:32] rafutner pictures. He spoke about [49:34] curiosity. [49:34] >> Yes. [49:35] >> And you don't really hear that enough um [49:38] from teachers from like the value of [49:42] curiosity of wonder of just like [49:45] >> still being fresh. [49:46] >> Yeah. It's like a child mind you know [49:48] like the childlike wonder like wow what [49:51] is this? And curiosity and judgment and [49:53] curiosity cannot coexist. [49:56] >> Exactly. Because judgment says I already [49:57] have the answer and I want to know does [49:59] this fit in with the answer I have. And [50:01] curiosity which is more risk cuz not [50:03] everything is good. But curiosity is a [50:06] little more tenderness coming into the [50:07] world and saying what is this? What do I [50:10] learn from this? Why is this here? What [50:11] is this about [50:12] >> and that is how you expand your [50:15] capacity. I want to I want to get to [50:17] this right now. This journey coming from [50:20] Austria, child of a Holocaust survivor, [50:25] you know, developing this new Jewish [50:28] identity, then marrying a a Makov boy. [50:35] And now now you have this new life. your [50:38] husband Amit um was diagnosed with a [50:42] very severe form of Parkinson's which [50:46] also has a very serious cognitive [50:48] decline. We actually rescheduled you [50:49] were in the hospital this week. Uh I [50:52] came back from the hospital yesterday. [50:54] But but the moment you know there are a [50:56] lot of people who who struggle um [51:00] everyone struggles and the question that [51:02] I have I talk about this constantly with [51:05] my wife you know we have three children [51:09] everybody's healthy everybody's good but [51:11] between each of our professional [51:13] identities and your family work and just [51:15] the anxiety in of everyday life of [51:18] knowing not knowing what's the right [51:19] path what's the wrong path the the word [51:22] we use very often is the word that you [51:24] just left off on is capacity. How do we [51:28] build more capacity to handle the life [51:30] that we have? And I want to hear from [51:34] you starting from the very beginning [51:36] from a point of of a diagnosis of when [51:39] you realize that there's a very serious [51:41] deterioration. [51:44] How did you first react religiously? [51:47] meaning you must have noticed certain [51:49] things starting to decline and now you [51:51] have a diagnosis and the diagnosis [51:54] undoubtedly is very scary because it's [51:56] going to you're going to slowly witness [51:59] a deterioration [52:01] in that moment when that happens [52:06] you feel a sense of of hurt of [52:09] punishment from God are you are you [52:12] thinking in that moment [52:14] I I I did everything for you I had a [52:16] great relationship with my parents. I [52:18] took the Jewish identity they gave me. I [52:21] leaned into it even more with [52:22] commitment. [52:24] Abalis chuva married a balchuva start a [52:27] family and this is what my life is going [52:30] to be now for the duration. This is the [52:32] pain that's going to be in the center of [52:34] my life. How did you react religiously [52:37] to what you were being handed? So first [52:40] it was a complete shock. For some time I [52:43] was in this shock cuz it was like from [52:47] having a beautiful life and the irony is [52:51] that we often looked at each other and [52:53] said it is too good to be true. We built [52:55] this beautiful life. We were just so [52:57] happy to be together and we and our and [53:01] raising a beautiful Canananara. We have [53:03] four beautiful girls and I just remember [53:06] it was like going from this beautiful [53:08] tranquil life to our life being turned [53:12] upside down. And I remember just um this [53:16] shock um because also Parkinson's is not [53:19] something that you expect at such a [53:20] young age. it typically all I knew at [53:22] the time when he was diagnosed was that [53:24] it's something people typically get over [53:26] the age of 65 and that it's a [53:29] neurodeenerative disease which means [53:31] that it only gets worse over time with [53:34] and so that is that is the information I [53:37] had at the time and I just remember it [53:39] so so vividly when when Amit came home [53:42] from the you know to tell me what the [53:44] doctor had said and because he went from [53:46] neurologist to neurologist and nothing [53:49] there was nothing to report um until one [53:52] said he should go to a movement disorder [53:54] specialist and that is when he was [53:55] diagnosed and um and I just remember [53:59] that we entered a world that hadn't [54:03] changed yet. Our world had changed [54:05] forever because I remember when he told [54:07] me I stepped into the car and I just [54:09] started crying and I didn't know what [54:12] the future will hold. I didn't know what [54:14] this meant for us. I in my mind I just [54:17] thought I'm I'm just going to lose him. [54:19] That's that's what I was going on in my [54:22] mind. How do you prepare for a lifetime [54:25] of unknown? How do you how do you grieve [54:28] for a future that you will ne that will [54:30] never be what you expected to be? And so [54:34] my religious um [54:38] reaction to it was almost like I went [54:41] the opposite and said Parkinson's is not [54:44] going to win. as a Parkinson's to myself [54:47] the whole time because I I felt like I [54:49] wanted to hold on to some control in my [54:51] life because it felt like [54:54] all my life was like taken out of my [54:56] control. I have no control over this. [54:58] And so I felt like I had to hang on to [55:01] something and that was something I could [55:03] hold on to was Parkinson's is not going [55:06] to win. It's not going to win. And so I [55:08] took the girls and and and Amit and we [55:11] were just like dancing and dancing and I [55:12] said we're going to dance through this. [55:14] I I felt like Hashem is right here with [55:17] me and I need to, you know, and we're [55:20] going to overcome this. And that [55:23] approach worked for some time until it [55:25] didn't because what ends up happening [55:27] when you are going through a [55:28] neurodeenerative disease is that it's [55:31] just ongoing and eventually [55:34] that approach wasn't enough because [55:37] Parkinson stopped being a diagnosis and [55:40] became everyday life and everyday life [55:42] it's in the little moments you know not [55:45] being able to leave always having being [55:47] torn between what my children need and [55:49] what my husband needs. Um, it's going on [55:52] a trip and him being stuck. It's the [55:54] everyday challenges and eventually [55:58] Parkinson's became our day-to-day life. [56:01] >> The first reaction is like, "We're going [56:03] to beat this. [56:04] >> Yes, [56:04] >> we're going to win. [56:05] >> Yes, we're going to win." [56:06] >> And and and you almost said something [56:08] very like you added it in when I we said [56:11] that it's a it's a neurodeenerative [56:14] decline. And you said usually it ends [56:16] with loss and you said alderva. [56:18] >> Yes. [56:18] >> Alderva. It means according to nature. [56:22] >> Yeah. [56:23] >> And what what Jews believe I I think is [56:27] that and this is the the sad part of the [56:29] scary part is that like there's a god of [56:31] nature also. [56:32] >> Yes. [56:33] >> And there's the first instinct of like [56:36] we're going to transcend this. We're [56:38] going to beat it. We're it we're going [56:39] to find the best. [56:41] >> And then there's like learning how to [56:43] accept the god of tea. [56:46] >> Exactly. which is not the god of [56:48] miracles and it's not the neat story. [56:51] It's the god of like slowly this is [56:54] going to slip through [56:55] >> my fingers. [56:57] When did when did you feel you know [57:00] exactly what you said the let's dance [57:02] together we're going to dance through it [57:03] we're going to win like ruach like [57:05] >> exactly we're going to do this and that [57:07] internal resilience of the Jewish people [57:10] and my history you know overcoming such [57:13] you know it's like that generational [57:14] trauma of like you know we're going to [57:17] beat this and how my family went through [57:19] challenges and and and carrying me [57:21] through this [57:23] the question becomes you know over a [57:26] period of time. Endurance, right? [57:28] Exactly. Because you can do this and you [57:30] can use this appro approach, [57:33] >> but how long how long can you dance [57:36] through this when it's this gradual over [57:39] years and years of gradual decline? And [57:44] eventually I didn't have the language to [57:47] carry that type of grief anymore. And I [57:52] I I started to dig deeper and I said I I [57:55] I don't know I know that I can find old [57:58] answers in Torah. So where can I find in [58:02] Torah [58:04] something that I can hold on to that [58:06] gives me language that gives me some a [58:08] framework that I can hold on to that can [58:11] support me in this journey. [58:14] And I remember I sitting, [58:17] you know, speaking to my rabbi and I [58:18] said to him, "Rabbi, where can I find?" [58:22] And I started to look in sir of the Reb [58:24] and I and I started to question and I [58:26] know that I can find it in Yiddesh cuz [58:30] that is their book for life, right? And [58:32] this is my life. So there must be [58:34] something. And he said something to me [58:36] that I will never forget. He said, [58:38] "Tanya, the only time in Tarret talks [58:42] about ongoing grief is the morning of [58:44] the Basa Mdash." [58:48] And it hit me so deeply and I started [58:52] crying and I was like, "Wow, that makes [58:56] so much sense." Because the Jewish [58:59] people already know how to live with [59:02] ongoing grief [59:04] whilst living a full life. [59:07] It's Yiddish never asked us it's either [59:10] this or that. It's teaching us how to [59:13] live with both. And that has become my [59:16] journey. [59:17] >> I want to add something to that because [59:21] you know I have an interesting view. Um [59:24] it's not my own. Um I think it's clear [59:27] in Kazal but it's something that I heard [59:28] from a friend of mine. I think from [59:30] Yonasclar who's a magnificent uh Tam [59:34] Torah scholar. You know when we think of [59:37] the Bameikdash [59:39] and you look at a B mikdash um it [59:42] parallels very much the home. There's [59:45] like a kitchen you know where you know [59:47] so to speak the we have the the leam [59:49] hapanim the the showbreads and then we [59:52] have a manora like the living room. Then [59:54] you kind of step in, there's a bedroom [59:56] that's the holy of holies. People [59:58] usually think that our homes are like [60:03] the Ba Mikdash. [60:05] And Yona told me, and I don't want to [60:09] blame this on him if I'm misquing it, [60:10] but but it's something that so deeply. [60:12] He said it's the opposite. Said BU is [60:16] putting the BG at the center because the [60:18] B mikdash is imitating the Jewish home. [60:20] >> Yeah. meaning the ultimate holiness, the [60:23] ultimate of like [60:26] where do you really see godliness and [60:29] make your peace with life itself, with [60:31] God itself. [60:33] It's not it's not going to this it's in [60:35] the bias. It's in the home and learning [60:37] and using that the the message of the [60:40] ongoing grief and the even the way the [60:42] basis was destroyed that slow decline [60:45] that we know where this train is headed. [60:47] you know, if you even read the story is [60:50] extraordinarily [60:52] profound. So, I want to hear about that [60:55] idea of living religiously with grief, [61:01] with pain, with with an unfilled life [61:05] that you will never experience. You will [61:08] never experience it. [61:10] Tell me more about what it takes to [61:12] shift from the we're going to dance [61:15] through this, we're going to win to this [61:19] other reality that you're in now, which [61:22] is almost [61:24] a lot more acceptance of reality, a lot [61:26] more acceptance of where your life is. [61:29] Tell me more about how that shift [61:31] actually bears out in the way that you [61:33] raise children, in the way that you [61:35] build a family. [61:37] >> Yes. Yes. So I went through probably all [61:40] the different stages of grief. Um [61:43] >> the Kubler Roth have five stages. [61:45] >> Exactly. And um sometimes you stay with [61:49] one more than the other. Um but a lot of [61:53] what I learned in in this journey and [61:54] and and working through grief is um that [62:00] you know a lot of times it's the the [62:02] grief also comes in because we we do [62:04] hold a lot of expectations right in [62:06] life. I think a lot of our [62:08] disappointments come because we have [62:10] expectations, right, of how our life is [62:12] going to look like and where where it's [62:14] headed. But I also always knew that my [62:18] journey and my connection to Hashem, [62:20] it's not like a deal. I do this and [62:22] that's why you do that for me. I've done [62:25] so much for you and now that is, you [62:28] know, um, you know, that is what you owe [62:30] me. Hashem doesn't owe me anything, [62:32] right? Um, and so I never and I never [62:35] really saw it as a punishment. The [62:38] question did become, why do bad things [62:41] happen to good people? Because when I [62:43] look at Amit, he is the the essence of [62:47] goodness. He's kind, he's loving, he's [62:50] so sweet, he's smart, he accomplished so [62:53] much in his life, and he went through [62:54] his own, you know, difficulties. He, you [62:57] know, he is this cancer survivor, too. [62:59] Wow. Wow. He had Hutchkins lymphoma and [63:02] he survived. He was totally totally [63:05] healthy and always dedicated to living a [63:08] healthy life. And so the question really [63:10] beca like why why is is this happening? [63:13] And so I knew that me asking that [63:16] question isn't going to get me anywhere [63:18] because I will never find out why, [63:20] right? I will never find out why is this [63:22] happening um why is this happening to [63:26] me? So I started to ask myself, how is [63:29] this happening for me? [63:31] >> How is this happening for me? Tell me [63:34] what you mean by that question. [63:35] >> How is this happening for me? What does [63:37] Hashem [63:39] is asking me to do and to be and to [63:42] become through this? Um because it's [63:45] almost like you know there is a concept [63:47] in Kabala. [63:49] You have a breakdown before you have a [63:51] breakthrough. [63:53] which is a very common concept in in [63:56] mysticism and inos literally means you [63:59] have to go down [clears throat] in order [64:01] to go up. [64:01] >> I love what you just said a break down [64:04] in order to have a breakthrough. [64:06] >> Yes. [64:06] >> We all don't want to feel pain. Pain is [64:09] uncomfortable and we don't want to stay [64:11] there and so we look for ways out, [64:14] right? We try to numb the pain. [64:16] >> Avoiding [64:17] >> avoiding numbing. We look for outlets [64:20] for you not talking about it, shame, [64:23] guilt, all of those things. You know, [64:25] where the real transformation happens is [64:27] when you stay in that pain and you you [64:31] you stay with it and you don't try to [64:34] escape it and you stay with it and you [64:36] stay stay with that discomfort and that [64:39] is really where the transformation [64:41] happens. Um you know uh there is like [64:44] this example of um of a caterpillar. The [64:48] caterpillar literally goes into a cocoon [64:52] and it's and and and it goes into some [64:55] sort of it dissolves itself. It it kind [64:58] of becomes a mush. It's like a natural [65:00] progression and in that and it becomes [65:04] like this gooey kind of like it it [65:07] completely dissolves in order and it [65:10] stays there for some time in order to [65:12] then become a butterfly. But if it [65:15] pushes out or tries to go against [65:18] nature, a god of nature, right, against [65:22] the the tea, against the tea, it will [65:25] not come out and create the wings it [65:28] needs and the nutrition it needs and [65:30] develop into the butterfly it can [65:32] become. And so what ends up happening is [65:34] that we we don't want to feel the pain. [65:36] We try to escape. We're trying to numb [65:38] it. We we we feel guilty. We think about [65:42] all the, you know, one of the stages of [65:44] grief is bargaining. If I only did this [65:46] and if I only had done that or maybe I [65:49] jinxed it by saying [65:51] >> this too good to be true. [65:52] >> Too good to be true. That is bargaining. [65:54] I shouldn't have. I should. It's all [65:56] your bargaining because you don't you [65:58] you don't want that discomfort. You want [66:01] you you don't want to stay stay in the [66:03] pain. You're trying to escape it. But in [66:06] by staying through it and feeling it, [66:10] you then are able to become something [66:12] much greater and develop those [66:14] butterflies, you know, and the wings [66:16] that you need to become a butterfly and [66:18] then start to, you know, fly. And so [66:22] what ends up happening with grief is [66:24] that we we try to escape it, but we need [66:27] to stay with it. We need to process it. [66:29] And it takes time. And people don't want [66:32] to stay in it. They think maybe I should [66:34] be over it by now. And that is what [66:36] becomes so difficult with this type of [66:38] loss. [66:40] It's a different type of loss because [66:41] it's ongoing. There is no closure. Most [66:44] of grief in our life comes with an [66:47] eventual end point. Let's say somebody [66:49] loses a job. Of course, you never know [66:52] what's going to happen. Thrown into it [66:53] completely. Yes. But eventually you [66:55] think you're going to find another job [66:56] or you have an injury. We expect to [66:59] heal. Um people divorce. We hope to find [67:03] that next chapter, right? Everything in [67:06] our life we experience as phases. [67:08] >> But when you experience something like [67:10] this, there is no closure. There is no [67:12] once this is over. We don't have a [67:14] treatment plan on the calendar. We don't [67:17] have like oh you know once this is over [67:20] once we get through this stage you need [67:23] a different type of framework. You need [67:25] to hold that type of grief differently [67:27] than anything else. And that is what I [67:29] experienced cuz I went through different [67:31] types of grief in my life but nothing [67:33] like quite like this. [67:35] >> Well, tell me a little bit. I'm still [67:37] very enamored with this [67:40] notion of the breakdown for the [67:43] breakthrough. [67:44] >> When you think of your breakdown before [67:48] you break through, where are you? Where [67:50] did that happen? that happened in [67:53] watching my husband not being able to [67:57] move, not being able, you know, mourning [68:00] with him and and the dreams that we had. [68:04] Um the Yeah, it's it's it's it's the [68:06] breakdown of a future that we thought [68:08] we're going to have together and a life [68:11] that we intended to live. And you know, [68:13] we both had certain passions and we love [68:16] to travel. We're curious people. We love [68:17] cultures. We love to experience things [68:20] together and um and we we we had plans [68:23] and that it's almost like that's where [68:26] you feel like wow that is like that's [68:28] where it stopped and that was that was [68:30] my breakdown. So that is where you start [68:32] thinking to yourself that is where the [68:34] morning is the morning of a dream the [68:36] morning of a life the morning of a [68:38] future um and you have to start [68:40] redefining all of those things. So what [68:43] grief taught me was how to live in [68:45] dualities because on one hand we are [68:48] always living in the in the morning of [68:51] the ba mikdash and living in gallas in [68:53] exile and we are commanded if dashima [68:57] that we are be joyous livea. So that [69:02] became my life. How do you live in that [69:04] duality right? Um, how do you grief the [69:08] past while being having to look forward [69:12] to a future? How do you do that? How do [69:14] you mourn the past and then create new [69:18] dreams and hopes for yourself? So, it [69:20] became my life became all about living [69:22] in in in that duality. [69:25] I want to ask a little bit of a [69:26] sensitive question and it has to do with [69:29] parenting. when you know there is going [69:32] to be a slow decline. A slow decline [69:35] meaning there was certainly a point [69:38] where your husband's cognition he was [69:40] aware enough to know what was going to [69:42] happen but it had not yet fully [69:44] happened. [69:46] >> And I'm asking you this question really [69:48] as as a mother because you have to [69:50] conduct [69:52] three a it's a genuine three- ring [69:54] circus. You have your husband, you have [69:56] your children, and you have you. When [69:59] you're thinking when you're in that [70:00] twilight period, your husband's [70:02] cognition, which has declined [70:03] significantly, is no longer, but when he [70:05] still has that cognition, do you want [70:08] him to like record and reach out into [70:12] the future to like have messages for [70:16] your family in the eventuality that he's [70:18] not cognitively present to deliver it? [70:21] And secondly, how do you parent children [70:25] with a declining [70:27] parent? And I'm curious specifically [70:30] about your relationship to pictures [70:33] taking preserving these moments when [70:38] there there there's not all that much to [70:40] preserve, [70:41] you know, in in [70:43] >> cognitively movement. But what's your [70:46] own relationship to like taking pictures [70:49] of your kids with your husband right [70:50] now? [70:51] >> Oh, um, you know, the thing is that I've [70:53] always taken pictures and I always [70:55] record everything. I I take pictures of [70:57] everything and and in today's time [70:58] that's even easier. I think there is [71:00] something also an an internal knowing [71:03] and intuition. Um, I'll give you an [71:05] example. last year Rashashana um I [71:10] noticed a certain you know you notice as [71:12] a wife you are entering a new phase in [71:15] in this journey and I was observing you [71:18] know and I I really deeply felt like [71:21] we're entering the next phase in the [71:24] development um and so before Shana I I [71:27] don't make it um like an announcement [71:30] but I said to my husband you know we're [71:34] going into a new year and and he's a ley [71:37] and I said, you know, um, you're a [71:39] father, you, you know, it's so [71:40] beautiful. We're going into the new [71:42] year. Why don't you give the girls all a [71:45] a braha, you know, a blessing before [71:47] before we entered into the new year and [71:50] and he was so happy to do it. He blessed [71:53] them. I recorded every braha and it was [71:55] so beautiful, so touching and I was so [71:58] happy I had it. That was before Roshana [72:02] Shabeshua in the Meshua. The first [72:04] Chabis he got an infection and he was in [72:08] a life-threatening [72:10] situation. We ran to the rushed to the [72:12] hospital. He was in the ICU. [72:15] Hashem, he made he made it through. And [72:18] I was thinking, wow, what an intuition I [72:22] had. I recorded I recorded everything [72:25] right before Rosha Shana and this is [72:27] right what ended up happening. How did I [72:29] know that? It was such a strong [72:31] intuition. I knew recorded gives he [72:34] should give them a blessing. And in [72:36] terms of your question in terms of [72:38] parenting, [72:39] >> I think one of the most important thing [72:42] is um I make it a thing not to make [72:45] anything wrong. There is that meaning [72:49] that if we say this is what it was [72:51] supposed to be, then we're almost saying [72:53] Hashem is doing something wrong. Hashem [72:55] is not doing anything wrong. [72:57] >> That is what he wants. That is Hashem's [73:00] will. And so if that's what he wants, [73:02] there is no it wasn't meant to be that [73:05] way or it wasn't supposed to be that [73:07] way. Hashem created it that way. And so [73:10] the more you lean into it, the more you [73:13] you you live with with more peace and [73:16] calm. And so my children see that I'm [73:20] that we live very much in in connection [73:23] with Hashem and knowing that this is [73:26] Hashem's will too. There is nothing as [73:28] soon as we say it wasn't meant to be [73:30] that way and why is this happening. [73:33] I don't you know Hashem can do no wrong. [73:36] So you know I I I I find that when we [73:39] live in this in the realm of like [73:41] expectations it's hard to live you know [73:43] it's it's very hard not to live with [73:44] expectations. We have expectations of [73:46] life. We set goals. We want to achieve [73:49] certain things in our life. But we have [73:51] to hold it loosely. [73:53] >> My my Rebby who passed away this year. [73:57] Um Rev Ezra Newberger who who you [74:01] sometimes don't realize the impact that [74:03] somebody has on you until after they're [74:05] gone. When I was in Yeshiva, which is [74:08] coming up it's about 20 years ago, which [74:11] is scary to say. Um he one year right [74:14] before Rashashana told us he said the [74:18] main focus of tshoua [74:21] the main focus of repentance this is [74:24] radical he says it's not your sins he [74:26] said the main focus of tshoua should be [74:29] on your expectations to do tshoua on [74:32] your expectations he said some of you in [74:35] this room right now your expectations [74:37] are too low for yourselves you have to [74:39] do chuva on that you need you need to [74:41] have higher expectations for yourselves [74:42] And then he looked and he said, "And [74:43] some of you your expectations are too [74:45] high." [74:46] >> Every year recalibrating our [74:48] expectations [74:50] is a real holiness. You know, [74:52] >> you are beyond remarkable and I I feel [74:55] like it is a privilege. I'm I am [74:57] struggling to keep my emotions contained [75:00] because it it [75:01] >> there's something very I it's strange to [75:05] say it because it's such a unique story. [75:07] There's something very universal about [75:11] a journey and then you know a a period [75:14] of utopia of serenity and then another [75:17] thing and then and then another break [75:20] and this like feeling of like where am I [75:22] going to get the capacity to get through [75:24] this. My my my last question is is [75:28] really about you know that shift that [75:30] you spoke about of like dancing through [75:32] it to like actually like embracing the [75:36] pain and like staring in the pain in the [75:38] face. [75:39] >> Exactly. Because don't forget when I [75:41] said let's dance through it. There was [75:44] and and we [clears throat] did that many [75:45] times and we still dance but I dance [75:48] with so much more calm and ease and [75:51] peace in my life because I don't run [75:55] away from the pain. I feel the pain and [75:57] I don't judge the pain and we judge [75:59] pain. We say why are you here and I [76:02] don't want to feel that and I don't want [76:03] you in my life and pain is inevitable. [76:07] Everybody feels pain, but how you carry [76:09] it [76:11] makes all the difference. And that we [76:14] have a choice. We can choose how we [76:16] carry that pain. And I give my children [76:19] the capacity [76:21] to feel all the range of our emotions. [76:25] And I feel like that is so much of what [76:27] Yiddishkite is giving you. It's giving [76:30] us. Yiddishkite is giving us all the [76:33] range. Hashem wants us to live all of [76:35] those emotions. There is no right or [76:37] wrong. It's going back to what we [76:39] started. Let letting go of judgment. I [76:42] shouldn't feel that way. Why am I still [76:44] crying? Why this? There is so much guilt [76:47] and so much, you know, criticism on [76:50] ourselves and just allowing yourself to [76:52] be to feel what you're meant to feel. [76:55] Hashem gave us a whole Jewish calendar [76:57] to feel all emotions. Purim, a time of [77:00] joy, pes, a time of freedom, you know. [77:03] to feel the grief. We are meant to Yes, [77:06] we're meant to live all of them fully. [77:09] And I actually came to a point in my [77:12] life where I started to feel grateful [77:15] for the grief that I'm feeling because [77:18] if somebody gets the gets to grieve, [77:22] that just shows you that Hashem blessed [77:25] you with so much love in your life. We [77:28] only grieve things we love. And I can [77:32] say thank you, Hashem, that I was able [77:34] to experience such deep love that I have [77:38] somebody I can grieve over. I find it [77:41] very sad if nobody ever grieavves about [77:43] anything in their life. [77:45] That is incredibly profound. I got [77:50] the notion of being judgmental to your [77:53] own emotions. Um, I I think it's because [77:56] it's something I have I think so many [77:59] people struggle with that of like that [78:01] sense of I shouldn't still feel this [78:03] way. I should be past this. Like I'm an [78:05] adult. I have kids. Like and I'm still [78:08] I'm still nervous. I'm still anxious. [78:10] I'm still insecure. I still care what [78:11] this person says. And we're so [78:14] judgmental. And these are all things [78:16] that I've said. I'm not I'm talking [78:17] about me. [78:19] >> [snorts] [78:19] >> And that sense of being judgmental to [78:22] your emotions and not letting them kind [78:26] of stand on their own two feet and meet [78:28] them and become friends with them and [78:30] learn them. Hi, how are you? Your [78:32] happiness, your joy, your insecurity. [78:34] >> Exactly. [78:35] >> Your your your grief, your pain, your [78:37] sadness. [78:37] >> Exactly. Um [78:39] >> Exactly. And I think that we also define [78:42] strength a certain way. We think that [78:45] strength is pushing through. We think [78:47] that strength is numbing our feelings, [78:50] you know, and [78:53] my kids saw me see me cry and I don't [78:56] judge it. It's like, yes, mommy's sad [78:59] right now. That's okay. I I don't you [79:02] know, there's nothing wrong with crying. [79:04] And the diff there people are confusing [79:07] emotional expression with emotional [79:10] collapse. [79:11] >> Exactly. [79:12] >> I'm not having a break. I'm not losing [79:15] myself. I'm not being depressed. I'm [79:18] just expressing an emotion. Just like [79:20] I'm laughing, I'm also crying. [79:22] >> You know the many years ago, I had the [79:25] distinct privilege of interviewing [79:27] Rabanit Raeli Franl who who lost a child [79:31] in the terrorist attack and she said [79:33] something that resonated and and you [79:35] captured it with a little bit of a [79:37] different language. She was describing [79:40] the the messages that people say to you. [79:42] >> Oh yes. which we could talk about, but [79:44] she said she it's so profound and and I [79:47] I think about this a lot. She says, [79:49] "People always say in Hebrew, she lived [79:51] in Israel, [79:53] >> be strong." [79:54] >> Yes. [79:55] >> And she said, "I don't like when people [79:56] tell me that." She said, "I want people [79:58] to say, be soft. [80:00] >> Be soft." So, you don't have to be [80:02] strong. Be [80:03] >> there's a strength and softness of like [80:05] actually [80:06] >> confronting life and not like being [80:09] like, [80:10] >> you know, like beating your chest. I'm a [80:12] suit, you know? [80:12] >> Yes. I've got superheroes on the in the [80:16] back. But but but I I have them here [80:18] because because this is the work of [80:21] superheroes. This this is this is our [80:23] super this is humanity's superpower is [80:26] their ability to express and articulate [80:29] emotion. [80:31] that last point and then and then really [80:34] in terms of the community. Um I'm [80:37] curious, you know, it's it's it's hard [80:40] to it could be uncomfortable to relate [80:43] to somebody who's going through so much [80:46] and you don't know what to do and you [80:48] don't know what to say. You don't know [80:49] how to help and and especially now in [80:52] Chuva, so much of tshoua is actually [80:54] learning how to help others, learning [80:57] how to offer help, how to receive help. [80:59] I'm curious for you. Do you have any [81:02] general pointers? Um, things that we [81:05] should avoid saying to a mother and a [81:09] wife in your position and the things [81:11] that you find most comforting. [81:14] >> Yes. [81:15] Two words that you should never say to [81:19] anyone. Anything that starts with at [81:21] least. [81:22] >> Ah, [81:25] at least you have children. At least you [81:28] have a husband. At least you have a [81:31] house. At least you have this. At least [81:33] you have it is it it makes the other [81:36] person feel unseen and unheard. You [81:40] don't recognize their pain because the [81:42] truth is it can always be worse. There [81:44] starving children in Africa and there [81:46] people going through war. It how is that [81:47] helping anybody? We know it can always [81:49] be worse. [81:50] >> So at least diminishes where the person [81:54] is at. your pain is not that bad because [81:57] at least [81:58] >> at least [81:59] >> no when people are going through [82:01] secondary infertility at least you have [82:03] one child it's the most painful thing [82:05] somebody can say to anyone you know and [82:08] that's the they cannot be like you know [82:10] their mourning their pain is their pain [82:12] even if you have five children and you [82:14] wanted the six and some people are like [82:16] I don't even have one it's their pain [82:19] their pain is their pain no matter what [82:21] pain people are going through meet them [82:23] where they at the most [82:27] comforting thing is to actually feel the [82:31] other person feel heard and seen. Grief [82:34] needs to be witnessed. [82:36] >> Grief needs to be witnessed. [82:39] >> Yes. Grief needs to be you want you. We [82:42] need a partner in our grief. We need [82:45] somebody to witness our grief. We need [82:47] somebody to say this is so hard. I can't [82:52] even imagine how you're doing this. I [82:54] can't even imagine the type of pain [82:55] you're carrying right now. That is the [82:57] most comforting thing because you are [83:00] acknowledging and you really you you say [83:02] I hear you. I see you. [83:05] Because there is nothing that will make [83:07] anything that you say any better. So [83:10] making that person feel heard and seen [83:12] is the best thing that you can do. The [83:15] next phase is to show that you believe [83:19] they have the capacity. [83:22] Meaning and we speak about capacity, [83:24] right? Expanding our emotional and [83:26] mental capacity for life means that also [83:30] believing when you're witnessing [83:31] somebody else's grief and pain is [83:34] saying, [83:36] I know you may not be able to see that [83:38] right now, but I know I can I know [83:42] things will look different. I know. And [83:45] I'm going to hold on to the pain with [83:47] you. I'm here with you. There is an [83:49] after. there will be a a life you know [83:51] and there we need to hold on to [83:53] something so we can't just finish with [83:56] just staying at the pain we need to also [83:58] need something that is [84:00] >> I see in you that you have the capacity [84:02] and you might not see it right now and [84:04] that is totally fine but I'm holding on [84:06] to this for you and then you kind of [84:09] like feel like okay I understand it's [84:11] it's hard and you see that it's hard and [84:13] I know that one day my life will change [84:16] and I will live a different you I'm that [84:19] pain will not stay this way forever. [84:23] >> This has been such an incredible [84:25] privilege to speak with you. [84:28] you know, there there's a certain poetry [84:30] to your story, especially the, you know, [84:33] the way that you described, [84:35] you know, not looking beyond your life [84:38] when it came to your Jewish education [84:39] and your Jewish literacy and just I [84:41] guess this is what it's going to be and [84:43] learning how to break through and now [84:46] doing it at this other end of your life [84:48] where the pain is so real, it's so [84:50] painful, but like learning how to break [84:53] through, not escape, but break through [84:56] that the pain and the grief and the loss [85:00] and the juggling and the chaos and the [85:02] breakdowns but doesn't become the [85:05] entirety of the container of your life [85:07] because at the end of the day and I [85:09] really do believe this at the heart of [85:13] giddishkite is amuna in life itself the [85:18] last of the toas you know the toa is [85:21] this long list of all of the disasters [85:24] and curses that could befall and towards [85:27] the very end of the list. It's like the [85:29] ultimate curse is [85:34] you did not believe in your own life [85:40] and you and your story which I think and [85:43] it's deliberate. It's a story of tshoua [85:45] of building capacity for the life you're [85:48] living and it's the reverse of of god [85:52] forbid never falling into the trap. This [85:54] shouldn't be my life. That [85:57] of believing the life with all the pain, [85:59] with all the suffering, with all the [86:00] difficulty, holding on to that amuna, [86:03] that sense of faith of God's with me the [86:06] whole time and this is the life that I [86:08] am supposed to live. [86:09] >> Exactly. Exactly. And I get and and that [86:12] is the beauty of it is that I get to say [86:15] I lived a full life. am living also a [86:18] very fulfilling life because we often [86:21] think that fulfillment means always [86:23] being happy, always being joyful. No, [86:27] living a fulfilling life is living [86:29] according to honoring your values or [86:32] living all types of emotions. Living [86:35] fully and I get to do that. Love and [86:39] grief is a package deal and I get and I [86:42] get to have both. Tanya, this has been [86:45] such a privilege to speak with you. [86:47] Really and truly, this is really one of [86:49] the more moving conversations I I [86:51] remember having. I always end my [86:54] interviews with more rapid fire [86:56] questions, just like very quick one, [86:57] two, [laughter] three. My first question [86:59] really relates to we always look for [87:01] good book recommendations. And I'm [87:03] curious for you, especially this idea of [87:07] building capacity, learning how to [87:08] accept the life that you have. I'm [87:10] curious if there were any specific books [87:12] that really helped you navigate this [87:16] challenge that you're that you're in the [87:17] middle of. [87:18] >> Yes. Um so there is an beautiful and [87:22] amazing book called I'm Not Alone. I [87:25] also read um a lot of self, you know, [87:28] personal growth books. What I'm reading [87:30] right now is Loving Someone with [87:32] Dementia. [87:33] >> Um [87:33] >> that's the name of the book. [87:34] >> Yeah. [87:35] >> Loving someone with dementia. Wow. how [87:38] to how to hold on to grief and and and [87:40] and and stress and and and and and you [87:43] know live a meaningful and beautiful [87:46] life. Um what I also always go back to [87:49] is um Victor Frankl men's search for [87:53] meaning. [87:54] >> It's a it's it's [87:57] >> the ABC of resilience. Um and I for [88:03] endurance particularly there is a book [88:06] that is called chop wood carry water. [88:09] >> Chop wood carry water carry water. I am [88:13] not alone. Chop wood carry water and [88:15] man's search for meaning. Three great [88:17] recommendations. I'm going to look up [88:19] never had chop wood carry. What does [88:21] that mean? That that what's that about? [88:22] Like [88:22] >> it's a story about um a samurai fighter. [88:27] >> Yeah. And he basically he has a trainer [88:30] and he's he already wants to get to that [88:32] next level and he wants to push through [88:34] and it he's like continue chop wood [88:37] carry water. Chop wood carry water and [88:39] you're doing and it's like flexing those [88:42] muscles in doing enduring and building [88:45] the work so that you can actually you [88:48] know [88:49] >> be stronger and continue you know your [88:52] own growth and carry water. It's a [88:54] amazing amazing book and there is one [88:56] line I will never forget from that book. [88:58] Everybody wants to be great until it's [89:01] time to do what greatness requires. [89:04] >> Everybody wants to be great until it's [89:07] time to do what greatness requires. [89:10] Beautiful. [laughter] [89:10] Oh, really? This is such a privilege. My [89:12] next question, I'm always curious. [89:14] Somebody gave you a great deal of money [89:16] and allowed you to take a sabbatical [89:18] with no responsibilities whatsoever. you [89:21] go back to school to get a PhD in any [89:24] subject of your choice. What would you [89:25] study? [89:29] >> Organizational psychology. [89:31] >> Really? [89:32] >> That's so interesting. I also I I I had [89:35] that itch for a very very long time. [89:37] >> Uh that's great. [89:38] >> Indust industrial organizational [89:40] psychology because I'm in I'm in the [89:41] world of executive [89:42] >> leadership leadership development. Very [89:44] good. [89:44] >> I I I did my own certifications but it's [89:47] something that really I I think I would [89:49] immerse myself in organization. I love [89:51] it. [89:52] >> Wow. Okay, final question. Uh, I've [89:54] struggled with sleep my whole life. I'm [89:55] curious about people's sleep schedules. [89:57] What time do you go to sleep at night [89:58] and what time do you wake up in the [89:59] morning? [90:00] >> That varies. Um, I would say I go to [90:04] sleep um, typically at 11 [90:09] and I wake up at 5. [90:13] >> Anya Freedellander, thank you so much [90:15] for joining us today. [90:17] >> Thank you for having me. It was such a [90:19] pleasure to be here. [90:21] >> One thing that I walked away with on [90:23] this episode was that shift from dancing [90:27] through life with pure joy to allowing [90:30] yourself to appreciate the entire [90:33] spectrum of the emotions that we need in [90:36] order to get through life. You know I [90:38] think initially and I know this everyone [90:41] has their own difficulties in life and [90:43] as she mentioned there there is no [90:46] nobody gains anything but reminding [90:48] ourselves that some people have it [90:49] worse. Masletov. [90:51] Everybody has their own struggles. But [90:54] one thing that I find so amazing and I I [90:56] I really feel this in my own life quite [90:59] quite deeply, especially in the struggle [91:01] of trying to push the 1840 project like [91:05] which sometimes feels like a Cian
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