Transcript [00:03] Good day. Our program is about to begin. [00:07] Good day. Our program is about to begin. [00:11] Good day and welcome to Advocacy [00:13] Anywhere powered by American Jewish [00:15] Committee. Advocacy Anywhere is AJ's [00:18] digital platform that enables you to [00:20] engage with AJC's global expertise, [00:22] content, and advocacy from wherever you [00:24] are. Today's webinar is presented in [00:27] partnership with the Rabbi Sachs Legacy. [00:29] As part of the third annual Sax Global [00:32] Day of Learning as political, religious, [00:35] and ideological divisions continue to [00:37] shape public life in Jewish communities, [00:39] we'll explore the enduring teachings of [00:41] Rabbi Lord Jonathan Saxs and consider [00:44] how Torah and Jewish values can help us [00:46] engage across deep differences and [00:49] strengthen relationships without [00:50] compromising our convictions. We are [00:52] privileged to be joined today by Rabbi [00:55] Dr. Zv Sinski, director of the Lamb [00:58] Legacy Digital Archive and director of [01:00] Judeaic Studies at Mainline Classical [01:02] Academy, Ambassador Daniel Tob, chair of [01:06] the Rabbi Jonathan Saxs Legacy in [01:08] Israel, and Dr. Tanya White, faculty [01:10] member and lecturer at the Jonathan Saxs [01:12] Institute at Barolon University. [01:15] Together, they will explore how Rabbi [01:17] Sax's teachings can help us navigate [01:20] disagreement with courage and curiosity, [01:22] foster constructive dialogue across [01:24] widening divides, and maintain moral [01:27] clarity while engaging meaningfully with [01:29] those whose views differ from our own. [01:31] Moderating our conversation today is [01:33] Maggie Wisher Fredman, AJC's director of [01:36] US Jewish Communal Engagement and [01:38] Partnership. After we hear from our [01:40] guests, time permitting, we'll take your [01:43] questions. You may email your questions [01:45] to questionsjacc.org. [01:47] Questions is plural or you can use the [01:50] Q&A feature in Zoom. Maggie, the floor [01:52] is yours. [01:54] >> Thank you. Uh good afternoon and good [01:57] evening to those who are joining from [01:59] Israel, including two of our wonderful [02:01] panelists. Uh this month we mark the Y [02:04] site and the passing of Rabbi Lord [02:06] Jonathan Saxs. Rabbi Saxs was a leading [02:09] Jewish scholar, philosopher, [02:13] advocate, and above all else, the [02:15] leading moral voice of our time. His [02:18] teachings challenged us not just to [02:20] think deeply, but to live differently. [02:24] For the third year, AJC is extremely [02:26] proud to partner with the Rabbi Sachs [02:28] Legacy for their global day of learning, [02:31] joining Jewish communities around the [02:34] world to honor his memory and the [02:36] enduring relevance of his ideas. We are [02:39] also pleased to have this be one of the [02:41] kickoff programs to AJC's year of Jewish [02:44] learning. [02:46] Here in the US, we are just days away [02:48] from the midterm elections, and those in [02:51] Israel are navigating the outcomes of [02:53] last week's national elections. [02:56] Polarization is testing our [02:58] relationships, our institutions, and our [03:01] sense of collective being, all while [03:04] anti-semitism continues to grow in [03:06] force. Across the Jewish world, profound [03:09] disagreements about politics, Israel, [03:11] and our responsibilities to one another [03:14] can leave us not just wondering how to [03:16] disagree, but whether we as a Jewish [03:19] community and as Western society can [03:21] still see one another as part of the [03:23] same community. In grappling with these [03:26] issues, Rabbi Saxs offers us a very [03:29] powerful starting point, the Torah [03:32] itself. [03:33] Jewish tradition does not demand [03:35] uniformity of thought. In fact, it [03:37] actually asks us to do something much [03:39] harder. To listen, to debate honestly, [03:42] to remain bound to one another, both in [03:45] our faith and also in our community, and [03:48] to speak with moral clarity. [03:50] Today, we are joined by three extremely [03:53] esteemed panelists [03:55] um who not only know this work, but [03:58] actually live this work and embody those [04:00] very ideals. We currently find ourselves [04:03] at the um within the Torah portions of [04:06] the beginning of the five books of Torah [04:08] of Bshit Genesis. So to start off our [04:11] program, I've actually asked each of our [04:13] panelists to begin by sharing some very [04:16] brief words of Torah [04:19] um where they will share with us about [04:22] Abraham Abraham, our forefather both of [04:25] our faith and also a very central figure [04:27] in the writings and thinkings of Rabbi [04:29] Saxs. They will share what Abraham [04:32] models for us uh as it pertains to [04:34] courage in our own time. Following this, [04:37] we will be in conversation at which [04:39] point we will open it to audience Q&A. [04:42] So I've asked Dr. Tanya White to kick us [04:44] off followed by uh Rabbi Senetski and [04:49] then we will close out that portion and [04:51] then turn to questions with Ambassador [04:53] Daniel Ta. So with that Tanya, please uh [04:56] kick us off. The floor is yours. [05:01] Thank you so much, Maggie. It's a real [05:04] real pleasure to be back with the AJC [05:06] community. Um, I really enjoyed my time [05:10] with you. It was a year and a half ago, [05:12] I think, now and it's wonderful to join [05:15] you all again. I want to speak for a [05:18] minute or two about Rabbi Saxs as an [05:20] Abrahamist thinker. What does that mean? [05:23] So, who was Abraham? He was a visionary. [05:25] He was also an idealist. He was fiercely [05:28] and unapologetically Jewish, but at the [05:31] same time he was also committed to his [05:35] shared humanity with the rest of the [05:37] world. For him, his Jewish self, his [05:41] Jewish identity was the open tent which [05:44] was really kind of um embodied by the [05:47] vision of that tent that was open on all [05:49] sides extend extending hands of peace [05:51] and compassion to the world. But this is [05:53] the question that I think dominates so [05:55] much of Rabbi Sax's thinking, the [05:57] universal and the particular parts of [05:59] our identity. How can we hold these two [06:02] commitments together in the dignity of [06:04] difference which is written in the [06:05] aftermath of 9/11? Rabbi Saxs begins the [06:08] book with the narrative of the tower of [06:11] Baba which is a story that actually at [06:14] first glance appears to be about a group [06:16] of people coming together in unity to [06:18] build to to with for a collective [06:20] project for a joint project. And if you [06:22] even look the way they speak to each [06:24] other at the beginning is ish elu one [06:26] man to his friend. They're dignifying [06:28] each other. They're seeing each other in [06:30] their whole identity particular [06:32] identity. Gradually the pursuit of unity [06:36] of a shared goal comes a demand for [06:39] uniformity. And we see that there's a [06:41] oneness of things, a oneness of [06:42] language, a oneness of name. They even [06:44] try to build this power in one name. And [06:46] what happens very very gradually is the [06:49] individual disappears into the [06:51] collective and it is not by chance says [06:53] Rabbi Saxs that immediately on the heels [06:56] of the story of Bavl we have the story [07:00] of Abraham we are introduced to this [07:02] person called Abraham Ha Iri the man who [07:05] stands on the other side the God's [07:07] answer to the tower of Babel it's not [07:10] another invention of universal [07:12] civilization but to actually impose [07:15] diversity diversity on uniformity and [07:18] then to appoint one individual, one [07:20] family, one people to model what [07:22] difference looks like. In many ways, [07:24] what Judaism teaches us and this is what [07:26] Rabbi Saxs teaches that our [07:28] particularity is not a retreat from [07:30] humanity. It's a contribution to [07:32] humanity. But the biggest biggest [07:34] question that I personally have been [07:36] struggling with and I know so many of us [07:38] have been is can we still sustain that [07:41] vision in a world of increasing hatred? [07:43] I thought a lot about this after October [07:45] the 7th and I also wondered how Rabbi [07:47] Saxs would respond. Would he respond [07:49] with his Abrahamic vision of the open [07:51] tent? I don't know. But I thought about [07:54] it coming up to this week's para which [07:56] is kay s the life of sorrow which is [07:59] actually really about her death. But in [08:00] many ways it's about Abraham modeling [08:03] Sara by doing exactly what she would do. [08:06] She was a pragmatist. Maybe Abraham [08:09] Abraham could be who he could be. could [08:11] open his tent, could put his hands [08:13] outwards because she was the pragmatist. [08:17] She was the sentinel at the door of his [08:18] tent. She was the one that envisioned or [08:22] saw or detected danger and sent away and [08:25] Hagal in order to ensure the survival of [08:29] the covenant. You know, I asked this [08:31] question last week. I was privileged [08:33] enough to have a conversation with [08:35] Ambassador Mike Huckabe, and I actually [08:37] framed this tension for him from Rabbi [08:39] Sax's book, Future Tense. In that book, [08:41] Rabbi Saxs argues a book about [08:42] anti-semitism and he argues that this [08:45] this vision that has kept kept us [08:47] captive. The vision of Bilam that we are [08:49] a people that dwells alone. And Rabbi [08:52] Sax says it's a self-fulfilling [08:54] prophecy. We should not be like that. We [08:56] shouldn't be isolationist. We should [08:57] turn outwards. It will end up being a [08:59] curse for us. We need to be Abraham's [09:02] open tent. And on the front of the book [09:03] is a picture of a lighthouse. That's how [09:05] Rabbi Sax saw Judaism. We shine our [09:08] particular light outwards. And I [09:11] remember after October the 7th, so many [09:12] things were shattered. But one of the [09:14] things was shattered shattered for me [09:15] was this vision of Rabbi Saxs. And I [09:17] asked myself, can we really still be [09:19] Abraham? Can we really still be the [09:20] lighthouse? Maybe we need to be Sarah. [09:23] Maybe we need to put up very high walls. [09:27] Maybe we need to stand at the entrance [09:29] and say, "No, you're not coming in and [09:31] we're not going out." And I thought [09:33] about the cover of the lighthouse. And I [09:34] asked um Ambassador Huckabby what he [09:38] thought of this. And you know what he [09:39] answered? He answered beautifully. He [09:42] said, "You stay in the tent. You make [09:45] the fire as bright as possible." And in [09:48] so many ways, I realized that that is [09:51] exactly what Rabbi Saxs would probably [09:53] have said. Now, at his AJC address in in [09:56] 2014, he gave an entire lecture about [10:00] anti-semitism. And at the end of it, he [10:01] said, "How do we fight anti-semitism? [10:04] Less oil and more joy." Not because the [10:07] threats aren't real and not because we [10:09] should and and he says we should never [10:12] allow our enemies to define our Jewish [10:13] identity, but because he embodied [10:16] Abraham's universal vision. And at the [10:19] same time also Sarah's commitment to [10:21] Jewish continuity. He understood that [10:23] our walls have to be strong like the [10:25] lighthouse whose walls have to be high [10:27] and strong in order to protect our [10:29] light. But it can't be so high and so [10:32] strong that the world doesn't see our [10:33] light. And we have to keep that light [10:34] burning. We have to really embrace the [10:37] particularity of our Jewish identity. [10:39] And maybe that's our challenge today to [10:42] be Abraham and also to be cognizant of [10:44] Sarah of Sara. Not simply to defend the [10:47] lighthouse, but to ensure that the light [10:49] continues to shine. [10:51] >> Dr. White, thank you. And this is also [10:53] my annual encouragement to go and listen [10:56] to Rabbi Sak's address to the global [10:58] forum. uh it is incredibly powerful. Uh [11:01] Rabbi Sinski, please share some words [11:04] with us. [11:05] >> So uh Dr. White just mentioned and I [11:07] want to kind of uh pick up on it which [11:09] is that there is a central tension [11:12] really just this perplexity about [11:14] Abraham's life that Rabbi Sax was so [11:17] attuned to and he said on the one hand [11:20] we know where did that Abraham come [11:21] from? He grows up in the town the [11:24] Mesopotamian modern day Babylonian we [11:27] would call it. uh even to up till today [11:29] Iraqi town called Urustim. God says, [11:33] "Travel to the other side essentially of [11:36] then the known universe, the other end. [11:39] Leave the fertile cross and go to the [11:41] unknown. You're going to travel to [11:42] journey to the land of Kenahan, what we [11:45] call the land of Israel today." And [11:47] Abraham is described as someone who [11:50] stood on the opposite side of the world [11:54] from all the rest of humanity. He's [11:56] radically different. And yet at the same [11:59] same time at the very beginning of the [12:02] narratives in Genesis about Abraham, [12:04] God's first charge to him is that and [12:07] promise to him is that through you all [12:10] the nations of the world will be [12:12] blessed. How do we reconcile these? How [12:14] can you be someone who leaves everything [12:16] and everyone that you know? The Torah [12:19] says, "Go for yourself, journey forth, [12:21] abandon everything and then at the same [12:24] time to be a blessing to all humanity." [12:27] It seems to be a contradiction in terms [12:29] and Rabbi Saxs explained and I think [12:31] it's so profoundly relevant in our [12:34] shattered our broken world today. He [12:37] said no it's precisely because Abraham [12:40] left everything and embraced his [12:43] understanding his own roots his own [12:45] ability to anchor himself in his own [12:49] traditions. That is how he was able to [12:52] emerge to open his tent and to be a [12:55] blessing to all humanity. And so that [12:58] really inspires me at this moment in [13:00] time that there is no contradiction. It [13:03] is complicated. It is messy in today's [13:05] world. But they are not in conflict. The [13:08] more that we dee do a deep dive into our [13:11] own understanding of our Jewish [13:12] identity, Rabbi Saxs would remind us [13:15] that through that and in that way we too [13:17] can be a blessing to all humanity. [13:21] >> Uh, Ambassador Tao, close us out before [13:24] we turn to questions. [13:25] >> Okay. With absolute pleasure. What a [13:27] what a joy to be with you, Maggie, with [13:29] the AJ community and what an honor to be [13:32] with uh Rabbi Si and Dr. Tanya on this [13:35] panel. Um, [13:39] Rabbi Saxs was fascinated by Abraham. [13:42] And in fact, Abraham is the character [13:46] that if you take out his commentaries on [13:48] the Torah, which obviously have a lot [13:49] more to do with Moses because there's [13:51] five books in which Abraham doesn't [13:53] appear and Moses does. He is the [13:55] character that in his books uh Rabbi [13:58] Saxs wrote about the most and I think he [14:01] was fascinated by him for precisely the [14:03] reasons that Tanya and Suvi had said. He [14:06] was multifaceted. He was a mixture of [14:10] opposites. He was both the sublime [14:14] example of faith in man and of faith in [14:18] God, obedience to God. He was the [14:21] universalist and he was the [14:22] particularist. And I think on the [14:24] relation to the question in this panel [14:27] which is how do we navigate this tension [14:31] between reaching to the outside world [14:33] and turning into the inside world that [14:35] was something that Abraham also [14:37] represented and Rabbi Saxs I think two [14:41] comments that he made on on this week [14:43] this past week's Torah portion Tanya is [14:45] ahead of me looking ahead I was still [14:46] looking back um I think represent that [14:50] tension. The first one is what Rabbi Sax [14:53] called radical hospitality. He points [14:55] out that Abraham is sitting at the [14:58] entrance to his tent. He sees three [15:00] people coming. He welcomes them in. And [15:02] only later does he realize that these [15:05] three people are actually angels of God. [15:08] And from this, Rabbi Saxs learns that [15:10] actually where do you find God? You find [15:12] God in the face of a stranger. And the [15:16] test of faith is whether you can [15:17] actually make space for somebody that is [15:20] not in your image. Because as Rabbi Sach [15:22] says very beautifully, if you don't do [15:24] that, you're really creating God in your [15:26] own image. So this first principle [15:29] invites us to be open to engage and to [15:32] to find value in difference. But against [15:35] that, he has another lesson from this [15:37] same Torah portion, which is that making [15:40] space for the other must never come at [15:43] the cost of erasing our own identity or [15:46] our own values. And and he makes this [15:49] point in relation to not an argument [15:52] between Abraham and somebody else, [15:54] another person, but the argument between [15:56] Abraham and God. When God shares with [15:58] Abraham that he is planning to to [16:01] destroy the city of stone, then Abraham, [16:04] you know, stands up and fights out [16:06] against it. He is sticking up for his [16:07] values. At the one place where you might [16:09] think he might subordinate himself, he [16:12] doesn't. And in parenthesis, I I do [16:14] wonder what learning these stories does [16:17] for generations of Jewish children who [16:19] grow up learning that you can argue with [16:21] God. So arguing with your parents or [16:23] your teachers is really no small fry. [16:26] It's a small fry because we grow up in [16:28] this in this culture of descent. But I [16:30] think if we take these two things [16:32] together, what we really learn from from [16:36] Abraham and Rabbi Sax's understanding of [16:38] Abraham is yes, we do need to be in [16:41] relationship with the broader world, but [16:44] that relationship needs to be conducted [16:46] in line with the values that bind us [16:48] both. [16:50] >> Um, thank you all for those starting us [16:53] off with those beautiful words of Torah. [16:55] And I think we are going to actually [16:57] transition now into our questions. Um, [16:59] and this speaks, I think, to the beauty [17:01] of Rabbi Saxs where we are going to go [17:03] from the conceptual to really what this [17:06] means if we're the exact moment that we [17:09] are in today. Uh, so Dr. White, I want [17:12] to turn to you first. Um, in a letter in [17:16] the scroll, Rabbi Saxs uh really paints [17:19] this beautiful picture of every Jew [17:23] serving a distinct as a distinct and [17:25] really indispensable letter and [17:28] collectively together we come together [17:30] as a complete Torque scroll. Um, we are [17:33] currently feeling tremendous political, [17:37] religious, ideological divisions that [17:39] are testing bounds both within our [17:42] individualized Jewish communities, but [17:43] also very much between Israel and the [17:46] diaspora. [17:48] How do you think about and what has [17:49] Rabbi Saxs's writing helped inform for [17:53] you about how we transform our shared [17:56] sense of belonging in faith? Um, and [18:00] balance that with a sense of uh purpose [18:03] and destiny that actually welcomes [18:05] difference. So, I would love to hear [18:07] your thoughts and then we'll we'll open [18:09] it to our other panelists as well. [18:15] Oh, and I think you might be muted. [18:18] Let's see. There we go. Great. [18:21] >> Sorry. Um, so it's a very big question [18:23] and the answer is very comprehensive. [18:26] Um, but I'm going to touch on a couple [18:28] of things that I think are important for [18:30] us to think about today and perhaps open [18:32] some windows for people to jump in and [18:34] perhaps even kind of do be curious and [18:36] do a bit re research themselves into [18:38] Rabbi Sax's thinking on these ideas. And [18:40] I actually want to be answer the [18:41] question by taking us back to Cambridge [18:43] University in 1967 because I think that [18:46] this what I'm going to describe in a [18:47] second this experience was particularly [18:50] informative for Rabbi Sax not just [18:52] autobiographically but also actually for [18:56] um his philosophy for the way he get [18:58] taught about Judaism. So in 1967, we [19:00] have this 19-year-old student immersed [19:03] in the radical individual of the [19:05] individualism of the 1960s. And this is [19:07] a world where freedom meant losing your [19:10] own identity, writing your own story, [19:12] much I guess like postmodernism today, [19:14] but in a slightly different way. And [19:17] then all of a sudden, Israel is faced [19:19] with a threat of destruction. We have [19:20] the Six Day War. And the Israelis whose [19:23] lives were in danger at the time, they [19:24] were not rabbis. He describes it in his [19:26] book in the letter in the scroll. They [19:28] weren't his friends. They weren't his [19:29] relatives. He had no friends or [19:30] relatives in Israel. He'd only visited [19:31] there once. And suddenly he felt like [19:34] their fate was his own. And he writes in [19:37] his book, a letter in the scroll. He [19:39] says talks about his talks about his in [19:41] Jewish identity. He says, "I hadn't [19:43] chosen it. It had chosen me." And he [19:45] said it went against everything that he [19:48] had learned until that moment that we [19:49] are all choosing selves. And I wonder [19:52] how many of us felt that same what I [19:54] like to call invisible string being [19:56] pulled on October the 7th. And there was [19:58] something about that moment for Rabbi [20:00] Saxs where he discovers something [20:01] profoundly countercultural to the [20:04] liberal culture and enlightenment [20:05] philosophy that he was immersed in. That [20:07] we are not only choosing beings. We are [20:11] also chosen beings. The very definition [20:15] of self is that we are born into a web [20:17] of relationships of connections, [20:19] commitments that we don't necessarily [20:21] choose but that make demands on us and [20:24] in the in give our lives their ultimate [20:27] meaning and purpose. Now Rabbi Joseph [20:29] Solvich who was a leader in the postwar [20:31] modern orthodox world and someone that [20:32] was deeply influ influential for Rabbi [20:34] Sax later on in his life he called this [20:37] the covenant of fate. The covenant of [20:39] fate is our shared history, suffering, [20:41] memory, belonging. [20:43] Rabbi Saxs, he felt that in 1967. Many, [20:47] many Jews felt that on October the 7th. [20:49] A shared a shared empathy, a shared [20:52] sense of suffering, a shared sense of [20:53] belonging through suffering. For Rabbi [20:55] Saxs, that's only the beginning because [20:57] fate can tell us who we are connected [21:00] to, but it doesn't tell us what we are [21:03] connected for. That requires what Rabbi [21:06] Solivves calls a covenant of destiny. [21:09] And Rabbi Saxs called it a covenant of [21:12] faith. And here we get to what I think [21:14] is a radical understanding of faith. [21:16] According to Rabbi Saxs, for him, what [21:19] he saw in the Bible wasn't just this [21:21] theological revolution of polytheism to [21:23] montheism, many gods to one God. It was [21:26] also an anthropological turn. It was [21:29] about our very perception of selves, of [21:31] our humanity. And what the Bible [21:33] introduces to the world is the ability [21:35] to act and to change our reality even [21:37] more radically to partner with the [21:40] divine. Rabbi Sax always says the Bible [21:42] is less about our faith in God and more [21:45] about God's faith in that in us. The [21:48] Bible calls that covenant that God wants [21:50] to partner with us. So that is moving [21:55] faith to faith. Faith is really an a [22:00] really crazy thing. Um, in a remarkable [22:03] midash that Rabbi Sax draws on at the [22:05] beginning of his book in a letter in the [22:07] scroll, Abra Abraham comes and he [22:09] encounters this midash. It's a [22:11] homalytical text. In that, Abraham [22:13] encounters this magnificent palace [22:15] that's engulfed in flames, which is the [22:17] world, an analogy to the world. And he [22:20] passes it by and he says, "Where's the [22:21] owner?" Right? Meaning in the ancient [22:23] concept, in the ancient model of [22:25] humanity, who should save humanity? The [22:28] gods. The gods are the only ones with [22:30] power. And so Abraham says, why is the [22:32] owner not putting out the flames? [22:35] And in the midrush, God responds from [22:38] within the flames and simply says, I am [22:40] here. And Rabbi Sax says it's almost as [22:44] if God was saying to Abraham, I am here. [22:47] Where are you? Ayeka, the first word God [22:50] says to humankind, where are you? This [22:52] old paradigm of God saving poor helpless [22:54] humans is gone. And the new paradigm of [22:56] covenantal quenching comes about where [22:59] God turns to humanity. Now that is faith [23:02] for Rabbi Saxs. The sacred discontent [23:04] between the world that is and the world [23:06] that ought to be. Not this not this kind [23:09] of opium of the masses of marks where [23:11] religion dulls us to the pain of [23:14] humanity but the opposite. It's where we [23:17] feel the suffering of another. in [23:19] particular for us as a Jewish people, [23:21] the suffering of our people. That was [23:22] the story of Moshe. It's the story of [23:24] the prophets. It's the story of Gizdon. [23:26] It's the story of so many people in the [23:28] Bible who feel the suffering of this [23:30] invisible string that calls them to the [23:32] fate of their people. That's not enough, [23:34] says Rabbi Sax. And this is where we are [23:36] today. Today, we have what we what's [23:38] been termed by many October the 8th [23:40] Jews. We have Jews that are reconnecting [23:42] through this invisible string to their [23:43] people. What does the covenant of [23:45] destiny call us to do? And the coming of [23:47] destiny is much much much more [23:50] difficult, much more challenging. And [23:52] this is where the metaphor of the Tora [23:54] scroll is so powerful. Rabbi Sax says [23:56] each of us is a letter. The Tora scroll [23:59] we know if there's one letter that is um [24:03] something wrong with it. The whole Torah [24:04] scroll is null and void. Each of us has [24:07] our own identity. We are each really [24:10] within ourselves a self. But at the same [24:13] time, we are part of something big. that [24:15] a letter makes a word, a word makes a [24:17] sentence, a sentence makes a paragraph. [24:19] We are part of something bigger and our [24:21] individuality is not diminished by our [24:24] belonging. It's a very countercultural [24:27] way of understanding, but it means that [24:29] to be Jewish, we recognize we are not [24:32] free floating atoms in the universe. We [24:34] are connected beings, part of a larger [24:36] story, and that story gives us meaning. [24:39] and we find the courage to speak to [24:42] others because we understand that we are [24:45] connected to them. That is the [24:47] connection of fate. Now it's much more [24:50] than that though. The the connection of [24:53] destiny is something even deeper and [24:55] Rabbi Sax felt it when he went to see [24:57] the Labavichi very famously after his [25:00] experience in 1967. And the Labovich [25:02] Rebi, he asks a whole host of questions. [25:04] And at the end, the Labauavich Rebi [25:06] turns to him and says to him, "Now I [25:08] want to ask you a question. What are you [25:10] doing for Jewish life in Cambridge?" And [25:11] Rabbi Saxs responds typically in a very [25:13] British way. In the situation which I [25:15] find myself in. And the Rebi stops him [25:18] mid-sentence, bangs, and says, "You [25:20] don't find yourself in a situation, you [25:22] put yourself in one." That's the [25:24] difference between fate and destiny. [25:26] Fate is what happens to us. Destiny is [25:29] what we choose to do for the situation [25:32] for ourselves. Fate's what happens from [25:34] outside. Destiny is how we choose to [25:37] respond from the inside. To be a Jew [25:40] today demands courage. It also demands [25:44] unity. And unity is not always so easy [25:47] when so many of us come from different [25:50] places. So many of ourselves, our [25:52] individual selves are so different. How [25:55] do we turn fate which is that string [25:59] that connects us but is external to [26:03] destiny that inner motion which connects [26:06] us to our people and builds a Jewish [26:08] future together. [26:11] I think Rabbi Saxs would say to us that [26:14] the way that we do it is that we learn [26:17] that we are connected no matter what. [26:19] And together we need to build something [26:23] that transcends our differences and [26:26] respects our differences. And that [26:29] question of what destiny summons us to [26:32] do was the question of Moshe. It was the [26:35] question of Gdon. And it was the [26:37] question of Rabbi Saxs. He felt the pull [26:40] of that string in 1967. [26:42] It summoned him to the fate of the [26:44] Jewish people. The rest of his life, I [26:47] think, was a response to the question of [26:51] how do I write my page in his in the [26:53] story of the Jewish people? How do I [26:56] create the destiny in the future of the [26:58] Jewish people? That was Rabbi Sax's uh [27:01] uh um uh his mandate in this world. And [27:05] I think it is the mandate that he asks [27:07] us to do today as well. So I want to [27:10] hold on to that the destiny component [27:12] there [27:16] and and actually bring us to something [27:18] that's very central to AJC's work which [27:21] is really in crafting that that destiny [27:23] which is really thinking about our [27:25] intergroup work in advocacy and [27:27] ambassador Taub um Rabbi Saxs really [27:32] modeled embracing uh difference without [27:35] surrendering conviction. Um and in [27:39] diplomacy and intergroup work which is [27:41] really central of course to what we do [27:43] and something that your life has very [27:45] much been dedicated to. Um we are [27:49] finding this work to be or I think that [27:52] the world is finding this to be [27:53] increasingly complex and especially as [27:55] we're seeing hostility towards Israel [27:58] growing normalization of anti-semitism [28:00] in spaces where that was beyond the pale [28:03] um a number of these relationships where [28:05] they're being tested. So my question is [28:07] in this work, how do we work to [28:10] distinguish between what are principal [28:12] disagreements and something that Rabbi [28:14] Saxs of course lived by as compared to [28:17] what are deep fundamental breaches of [28:19] our values and and are not something [28:21] that we can reconcile. And how did Rabbi [28:24] Sax's teachings on that really um find a [28:28] way for him to remain committed to [28:30] building bridges while also not [28:32] compromising on moral clarity? It's a [28:34] big question, but I'm hoping you can [28:36] give us some insight here. [28:37] >> It's a wonderful question, but first, if [28:39] I could just add something small to to [28:41] what Tanya just said. Um, [28:44] >> I don't think that Rabbi Saxs has often [28:47] been compared to Shimon Perez, but when [28:49] she was speaking, I thought that [28:50] actually there was a striking connection [28:52] there because one of Shimon Perez's very [28:55] famous lines was basically the Jewish [28:58] contribution to humanity has been [29:00] dissatisfaction [29:01] that we're not happy with the way things [29:03] are and we always want to improve it. [29:05] And I think that's really what Tanya was [29:07] suggesting to us about faith. And you [29:09] know for for for Rabbi Sachs, faith is a [29:12] kind of dissatisfaction. It's seeing the [29:15] difference between the world the world [29:16] is and the way the world could be and [29:19] asking ourselves why we aren't the [29:22] people that we've been waiting for to [29:24] make that change. And I think when you [29:26] think about Rabbi Sax's response to the [29:28] the extraordinary six- day war in 1967, [29:32] it was very counterintuitive. He didn't [29:34] step back and think what an amazing [29:36] miracle God has given us. His response [29:39] and he writes about it is what does this [29:41] miraculous event call on me to do? What [29:45] is the call of this of this event? A [29:47] miracle isn't something that happens to [29:49] you. It's something that calls you in to [29:51] do something. And I think just in [29:53] passing that is one of the reasons why [29:54] Rabbi Saxs enjoyed spending time with [29:57] young people with children so much [29:59] because they are people who haven't [30:01] given up on that possibility of being [30:04] the people that changed the world. And [30:05] he really did love it. All of this was [30:08] not an attempt to avoid your question [30:09] which is such a critical question. Um it [30:12] was critical. It's always been critical [30:14] the limits of legitimacy. There was uh [30:17] one famous American professor who told [30:18] his students, "I want you to be [30:20] open-minded but not so open-minded that [30:23] your brains fall out." And sometimes it [30:25] feels that that's what we're being asked [30:27] to do with this kind of openness and and [30:30] particularly after October the 7th when [30:33] we have this dilemma because of the [30:35] people that we marched with who weren't [30:37] prepared to march with us, you know, [30:39] should we still engage with them? And I [30:42] have to say as an Israeli diplomat, we [30:43] have the question in relation to [30:45] international tribunals. Some of them we [30:48] helped established in the first place [30:49] for the highest values and their and [30:52] their core values seem to have been [30:54] perverted. There seems to be some kind [30:55] of magnetic attraction in these [30:57] institutions that perverts their moral [31:00] compass when it comes to issues with [31:01] Israel. So how do we navigate this? And [31:04] as as I mentioned in the the two points [31:06] I took earlier, I think Rabbi Saxs saw [31:09] them as a clash between these principles [31:11] of radical hospitality of being open and [31:14] on the other hand being very very [31:17] entrenched, very very firm in his own [31:19] convictions. And as you pointed out, he [31:22] did this in his own life. I mean his his [31:24] outreach was extraordinary. you know, he [31:26] would he was rarely as excited as he [31:28] would be when he would be engaging in a [31:30] debate with a with a diehard atheist or [31:33] or somebody who disagreed with him and [31:35] he would really look for that. But he [31:37] never did it at the expense of his own [31:40] principles. And so I've been thinking [31:43] about that in relation to in relation [31:45] what it means for AJC, in relation to [31:47] what it means for Israeli diplomats. And [31:50] in a way, one way you could ask the [31:52] question is we know there are 70 faces [31:54] to the Torah. This is what the rabbis [31:56] teach us. There's 70 different ways you [31:58] can look at truth. But that doesn't mean [32:00] that there isn't a 71st face. There [32:02] isn't one that falls outside the tent of [32:05] legitimacy. How can we know if something [32:08] falls outside the tent of legitimacy? [32:11] And um and I was thinking about it and [32:15] one of the things that I thought it was [32:16] interesting to look at are those [32:18] instances in the Talmud where somebody [32:20] gets thrown out of the house of study. [32:23] It doesn't happen very often, but there [32:25] are these rare instances where in the [32:27] Talmud, somebody is told to leave the [32:29] house of study. And when you look at [32:31] them, you find something fascinating, [32:34] which is it is almost never because of [32:36] the thing that they say. It's because [32:39] they don't buy into the process of [32:41] debate. It's a question of process and [32:44] it's not a question of content. And what [32:47] that suggests to me and what that [32:49] suggests perhaps to the way that we [32:51] should respond is that we should engage [32:53] with with bodies that are critical with [32:56] bodies that say things that are [32:57] difficult for us to hear except where it [33:00] becomes clear we're not really engaged [33:02] in an argument at all. You know there's [33:04] a saying amongst diplomats you can [33:06] change my opinion but you can't change [33:08] my instructions. And often it seems that [33:11] we are actually asked to engage with [33:14] people who have a set of instructions [33:18] whether it comes from their tribe or [33:20] their political leaders or or or or some [33:22] other kind of interest. And if you find [33:24] yourself in that kind of condition, [33:26] Rabbi Sak said this about the famous [33:29] argument in quotations between Korak, [33:31] Moses cousin and Mo and and Moses um [33:35] which he said actually the problem with [33:37] this argument was that it wasn't even an [33:40] argument at all. If you find yourself in [33:43] dialogue with somebody who has no [33:45] interest in actually learning or [33:47] changing or being open, then that is the [33:51] point where you are best served by [33:53] diverting your energies elsewhere and [33:56] not giving them a kind of legitimacy [33:58] that they don't deserve. [34:01] >> Beautifully put. I I actually think um [34:04] well, first I want to Dr. White or uh [34:07] Rabbi Sedi if there's anything to add [34:09] there. Yeah, I'll just jump in with uh [34:12] with one point that was inspired uh by [34:14] what you said, Ambassador Tab, which is [34:16] that I recall that Rabbi Saxs also on [34:18] that note cited a story from the Talmud [34:20] that I think is a very interesting [34:22] distinction that he would have [34:23] emphasized on top of what you said, [34:26] which is the Talmud tells us a story. [34:27] There was uh there was a great rabbi. [34:29] His name is Rabbi Mayor. And Rabbi [34:31] Mayor's wife was one of the most [34:33] ariodite brilliant women of the entire [34:36] period of really the rabbitic the [34:38] rabbitic time going back to the year 200 [34:42] CE or so. And Rabbi Mayor is being uh [34:45] abused, mistreated, spoken down to by a [34:49] bunch of ruffians in his community. And [34:52] so what happens is is he's so frustrated [34:55] no one will listen to him. and finally [34:57] he's just had it. And so he prays that [35:00] these ruffians die. [35:03] He goes home and he tells Burya the [35:06] story, tells his wife and she says, "No, [35:08] no, no. There's a verse in Psalms, may [35:11] the sins disappear from the world." Note [35:15] that she says, it does not say the [35:18] sinners, their sins disappear from the [35:22] earth. She says, "Go back, pray not that [35:25] the sinners disappear, but that their [35:27] sins disappear." In other words, that [35:29] they repent. And so they did. Now, I [35:32] don't have the power of prayer uh in [35:34] quite that way. That all of a sudden I'm [35:36] going to pray that my ruffians that [35:37] those give me a very hard time even [35:38] within the Jewish community are going to [35:40] disappear. That I don't have. I don't [35:42] have the brilliance of a burria. But I [35:44] think that when Rabbi Sax cited the [35:45] story, he was adding another insight, [35:47] which is that when we are engaging with [35:50] people that we think really are not [35:52] listening and that we really have [35:54] nothing to say to in terms of their [35:55] ideas, we can distinguish between their [35:58] humanity and their opinions. We do not [36:01] need to give a platform to every single [36:04] position that we reject. And I think [36:06] Rabbi Saxs understood this. And even [36:09] though he didn't emphasize it always, it [36:11] was absolutely part of who he was. But [36:13] he was willing to talk to anyone and [36:16] everyone. In other words, the personal [36:18] relationship and the institutional [36:20] decisionmaking need not go hand in hand. [36:25] >> So I actually I want to pick up on on [36:28] something that you raised ambassador tab [36:30] of that debate as process and something [36:32] that we are very much thinking about in [36:33] this moment is um dialogue across [36:36] difference. I think we almost have this [36:38] word in Hebrew already which is or [36:41] debate for the sake of heaven. So I want [36:44] to I want to take this into a place I [36:45] think where we unfortunately are seeing [36:47] a lack of this which is um educational [36:50] spaces. Uh and Rabbi Sineski I know that [36:53] you spend a lot of time thinking about [36:54] this. So I I want to pose this to you [36:56] and of course everybody please uh uh [36:58] jump in after as well. But um Rabbi Sax [37:01] writes about this in the dignity of [37:03] difference and again talk about having [37:04] in so many ways extreme foresight into [37:07] the moment that we are in um but he [37:09] talks about in the dignity of difference [37:12] um the that genuine conversation changes [37:15] both parties perspective um as compared [37:18] to to we'll just debate where it's just [37:20] hearing basically one uh uh speak um [37:24] increasingly and again this is a shared [37:26] uh issue of concern for EJC we are [37:28] seeing educational institutions And I [37:30] think even in certain cases certain [37:31] Jewish institutions where we reward [37:34] ideological conformity rather than that [37:37] ideological and intellectual diversity. [37:40] Um this is all made all the more uh [37:43] intense and I think uh powerful by the [37:45] fact that we have social media [37:47] algorithms and AI that are deepening [37:49] these echo chambers and reinforcing our [37:51] own beliefs. Um so my question for you [37:54] is how do we reclaim education as a [37:57] space that welcomes and craves and [38:00] fosters intellectual diversity um in a [38:03] world that is very much designed both [38:06] technologically and also from our [38:07] institutional standpoints to uh actually [38:09] hinder that. Um and what can we learn [38:12] from Rabbi Saxs and the Torah itself [38:14] about the want and the uh the need to [38:16] challenge perspectives. So [38:19] >> yeah, [38:19] >> you could dive into all of that. [38:22] like like my colleagues we'll try to uh [38:24] we'll try try to keep it condensed into [38:26] the point such an important urgent [38:27] question but I was recently talking to [38:29] someone about exactly this issue was [38:31] someone with a a teenager that recently [38:33] got became active on social media and [38:35] had been I would say even politically [38:38] radicalized and they were they were [38:39] trying to figure out like they were they [38:41] were just there were certain kind of [38:42] rabbit holes they felt that their child [38:44] was going down and and how can we kind [38:47] of help them to see other perspectives [38:49] when they they felt like they're almost [38:51] you know they're almost hearing [38:52] propaganda as as teenagers and it's not [38:55] even coming from the family. It's not [38:56] coming from school. It's just coming [38:57] from whoever it is coming online. And we [39:00] know that this is uh one of the great [39:01] civilizational challenges which is that [39:04] these are actually educational spaces [39:06] that are rewarding toxicity in which our [39:09] influencers are being taught to [39:12] essentially brand themselves by saying [39:14] the same thing asserbically as angrily [39:17] as possible. That feeds the algorithmic [39:19] attention. That's what draws people to [39:22] engage. And of course uh hate uh has a [39:25] real uh incredible uh incredible power [39:28] to uh to attract attention. We know this [39:31] is uh this is just u counter to [39:33] everything that we want from our kids. [39:35] And Rabbi Saxs or for our kids, Rabbi [39:37] Saxs pointed to an incredible passage in [39:40] the Talmud. You know, as was mentioned, [39:42] we have quite the quite the culture of [39:45] of debate in uh in Jewish history in our [39:48] heritage. And the Talmud, of course, is [39:51] the great repository of all of these [39:53] debates. And two of the great schools of [39:57] those early debaters, those great [39:59] schools of thought, not just [40:00] individuals, but entire schools of [40:02] thought. In other words, almost like [40:03] polarities, two groups that vied for the [40:06] Jewish law in early generations to [40:08] follow them. One was called Beth Hillel, [40:11] the house of Hillel, and the other one B [40:14] Shami, the house of Shamai. And Rabbi [40:16] Saxs points out there's a very strange [40:18] passage in the Talmud. The Talmud says, [40:20] you know, they were brilliant. They [40:21] disputed these issues. The Talmud says [40:23] over the course of two and a half years [40:26] and the rabbis still could not decide [40:29] was the house of Hilo correct, was the [40:31] house of Shame correct? Whom should the [40:33] law follow? And the Talmud says a very [40:35] puzzling thing. explains that the reason [40:37] we followed the position of the house of [40:40] Haleb over that of Shamai is because [40:43] they were modest [40:47] because quoting other opinions or [40:49] analyzing an issue they first cited [40:51] their interlocator's position they first [40:54] cited the view of B Shamai and then in [40:56] only then did they formulate their own [40:58] position so Rabbi Sach says look [41:00] humility is a wonderful quality but what [41:01] does that have anything to do with [41:03] whether or not intellectually [41:05] I'm correct. It's wonderful. It's [41:08] respectful. It's appropriate. It's [41:09] dignified to cite a different opinion [41:12] before my own. But again, why does that [41:13] make Beh correct? And his answer is it's [41:16] exactly what you said, Maggie, about a [41:18] debate for a dispute for the sake of [41:22] heaven. In other words, the fact that [41:23] Beth Hill cited Beth Shamai first shows [41:27] that when they were in the study hall, [41:29] when they were children already, when [41:30] they were emerging as budding scholars, [41:33] their entire house, you can imagine all [41:34] the kids that are being trained in their [41:36] study style and their study house. And [41:38] they were being trained essentially to a [41:41] engage, [41:42] in other words, not to assume that their [41:44] ego carries the day, to assume that [41:46] there could be another opinion that was [41:47] correct before their own. And then, and [41:49] only then could the Jewish law be [41:51] decided. If you're not citing the other [41:53] opinion first, said Rabbi Saxs, then [41:55] you're no longer seeking the truth. It's [41:58] self- agendment. It's a desire for you [42:00] to be right. That is what our children [42:02] are finding on the internet today. That [42:04] is what they're being trained that's [42:06] being modeled for them. And in the [42:09] political polarization, that climate [42:10] that we have today, they're being taught [42:12] by social media and the algorithms that [42:14] it's more important to be right than to [42:17] actually learn. And I believe that in [42:19] our world, the only way to begin is at [42:22] the very earliest of stages. You know, [42:24] there's a lot of uh talk about critical [42:27] thinking and all of these kinds of [42:29] things. Um but I believe that both at [42:32] home and at school from the youngest of [42:34] ages and above all before our kids are [42:37] on devices, before they're on the [42:39] internet, before they're hearing any [42:41] other sort of role models and we still [42:43] have the ability to craft their [42:44] identities in a in a formative way. I [42:47] believe we have an obligation to be [42:49] extremely proactive in not just civil [42:53] discourse and critical thinking but to [42:55] engage in concrete exercises and I've [42:57] seen educators do this and I've seen [42:58] parents do this. I'll give some [42:59] examples. Uh one is modeling [43:02] intellectual humility for our children. [43:05] And we can do this in schools but we can [43:06] do this at home as well. Right? How [43:08] often do we hear someone in the media [43:11] out there simply turn to us and say [43:13] that's a great point. I didn't think of [43:16] that. [43:17] It's such a simple thing, but it was [43:19] everything that Rabbi Saxs represented. [43:22] It was the ability to say, you know [43:23] what, there is that dignity of [43:24] difference. How do we reach across and [43:26] how do I learn from the other? If we can [43:28] model that proactively for our children, [43:32] we will have given them a gift. We can [43:35] also ask them uh we can ask them not [43:37] only what they learned in school this [43:39] week, right? That's what we often do. [43:41] What do you learn in school? We can ask [43:43] a different question in 2026. Following [43:45] Rabbi Saxs, we can ask what did you [43:47] learn from someone who thought [43:50] differently than you that you disagreed [43:52] with this week? Did you hear anyone [43:54] formulate an opinion that you didn't [43:56] accept especially as they get to the [43:57] adolescence and this becomes an inherent [43:59] part of the educational process? That's [44:02] something incredibly powerful. Uh the [44:04] more that we can uh and I'll give one [44:06] other example. We haven't talked about [44:07] AI so much and that how that plays in. [44:09] But AI for all the risks and all the [44:11] challenges and all the dangers is a tool [44:14] like any other tools Rabbi Sax always [44:16] reminded us and I just want to suggest [44:17] one other thing that we can train young [44:19] people and ourselves to do with AI which [44:22] is that instead of asking it how can I [44:24] even make this better or evaluate my [44:26] work or give me your own thinking. We [44:29] can go to AI and we can ask chatgbt cler [44:31] whatever it is that we use what is the [44:34] strongest alternative position to the [44:37] one that I have formulated just now what [44:40] are the best the the best arguments [44:42] against what I have to say imagine a [44:45] classroom in which we're encouraging our [44:47] children not to speak only for [44:49] themselves but to ask if I were the [44:51] other side what would I pick on what [44:53] would be the weakness in my argument [44:55] that I believe as Rabbi Sax stood for in [44:58] today's world. That I believe is what [44:59] behel teaches and models for us as well. [45:02] The ability to teach our children and to [45:05] teach our students to not just uh seek [45:08] to persuade others or to brand ourselves [45:12] genuinely and humbly to learn. [45:17] >> Um Ambassador Tav or Dr. White, anything [45:20] to add on the front of education? [45:23] >> Well, first of all, that was wonderful. [45:24] I actually at the moment engaged in a [45:26] wonderful project. I wrote a book about [45:28] how to have better arguments. Yes. And [45:30] on the basis of that have been invited [45:32] to try and work with schools on [45:34] developing curriculum [45:35] >> to actually do that and I'd be happy to [45:38] share our thinking with with Rabbi Si or [45:40] with AJC in any way that they could [45:42] help. I just mentioned one little [45:44] curiosity because I think it's something [45:46] that is small but very indicative. We [45:48] know about the arguments in the in the [45:50] Talmud as hell and Shamai are the most [45:53] famous pair of disputants. But what [45:56] isn't usually known is that Shamai was [45:58] not Hillel's first study partner. [46:01] Hillel's first study partner was [46:02] actually somebody called Manakahan, a [46:04] different person. And we don't know a [46:06] lot about him. But the only thing that [46:08] we do know is that on one of the [46:10] critical issues of the day, he agreed [46:13] with Hill. There was no difference [46:16] between them. So there was no point in [46:18] having him because in the Jewish way of [46:20] thinking, the value is to be found in [46:23] difference. You know, William Wrigley, [46:25] the the chewing gum magnet, used to say, [46:27] when two people agree, one of them is [46:29] unnecessary. And I think that really [46:31] plays into the points that that uh Rabbi [46:34] was trying to inculcate that we have to [46:37] see this person that disagrees with us [46:39] if they are within the realms of [46:41] legitimacy as a partner in building some [46:44] kind of shared argument for the sake of [46:47] heaven that we're both going to learn [46:48] from. [46:52] >> Dr. way. Anything to add before we turn [46:53] to audience Q&A? [46:55] >> Yeah, I I would add that we've spoken a [46:57] lot about Hill and Shamai. One of one of [46:59] my favorite Rabbi Saxs um Dashot [47:03] commentary um is where he speaks about [47:05] the notion of when the Talmud speaks [47:08] about the argument for the sake of [47:10] heaven or not for the sake of heaven. It [47:12] presents it as the difference between [47:15] Hil and Shamai who were the you know the [47:17] two groups of thinkers who obviously [47:19] debated with each other and it's then it [47:22] says and an argument that's an argument [47:24] for heaven an argument not for heaven is [47:27] korak [47:29] and his uh uh followers essentially okay [47:34] and rabbi sak says logically it should [47:37] be and because came to mosher with an [47:42] argument. But why does it say kora ed? [47:46] Because that was the most ancient form [47:49] of echo chamber and power argument that [47:55] the hill and shamai argued in order to [47:58] bring truth into the world through [48:00] multiple dimensions through multiple [48:02] perspectives. [48:05] It's not that Judaism is against someone [48:07] coming with a critique or or even with [48:11] an argument against a leader, right? We [48:14] don't want to create followers. We want [48:15] to create leaders. We live in a world of [48:17] social media that wants as many [48:18] followers as possible. And that is [48:20] indicative of the world that we live in [48:22] which is just about existing echo [48:24] chambers and about following following [48:26] people. But Judaism wants us to be [48:30] leaders and it wants argument and it [48:32] wants us to argue with God. We know God [48:33] invites Abraham to argue with him about [48:35] stom. And so the reason it says Hel and [48:38] Shamai Korak and his [48:42] community is because Korak wasn't really [48:45] arguing with Moshe. Korak was coming [48:48] because he believed he was right. He [48:49] wasn't interested in hearing what this [48:50] wasn't a real argument for the sake of [48:52] heaven. It wasn't about bringing [48:53] multiple dimensions of truth into the [48:55] world. It was about his view and his [48:57] view only. It was about echo chambers [48:59] and that leads to polarization and [49:01] ultimately leads to violence. The rede [49:04] the rectification of that happens at the [49:06] end of sephidbar with the daughters of [49:09] one of whom I name my daughter after who [49:12] beautifully come also with an argument [49:14] exactly like korat to mosher they do it [49:17] in a totally different way it's about [49:19] how we argue can we argue by dignifying [49:23] the other by separating someone's [49:26] opinion from the essence of who they are [49:29] we argue effectively and this is [49:31] something that has I think been such a [49:33] urgent question in Israel today. I'm [49:36] sure um ambassador Tahal you know of the [49:40] project that Sit Zusman set up um here [49:43] in Israel. Sit lost her son lost her son [49:46] Ben was killed and she has set up [49:48] together with the um another grassroots [49:51] organization a project called Dbor which [49:54] means literally speech and it's [49:56] unbelievable. What they do is they take [49:58] out massive advertisements in newspapers [50:01] and they show how politicians and [50:03] journalists can say exactly the same [50:05] thing, critique of somebody else without [50:09] you using disparaging language. And they [50:13] basically just cut the sentence to show [50:15] that you can say the same thing, you can [50:17] say it in a respectful and dignified [50:19] way. And it's an amazing amazing [50:21] organization which has really a lot of [50:23] the politicians and and journalists are [50:25] now thinking a little bit more because [50:26] they don't want to be shown in the and I [50:29] think that this to me is really what uh [50:31] the Torah is telling us that Moshe says [50:35] not they spoke yes you've spoken well [50:39] it's not about argument we want argument [50:41] we want descent we want lots of [50:42] perspectives we want to be able to [50:44] engage in dialogue across difference the [50:47] question is how we do it and Um, and I [50:50] think um, Rabbi Senetski and and and [50:52] Ambassad have have shown us all those [50:55] different ways which are really [50:56] effective and can be used today. Um, [51:00] before we turn to audience Q&A, I just [51:02] want to in a way challenge our audience [51:04] with two beautiful threads I think that [51:05] came out of all of your answers. One is [51:09] whether it be on your AI chatbot or [51:12] ambassador tab book or I I love the [51:14] mention of Benot Safhad the daughters of [51:16] Safhad whatever it is that helps you [51:20] think to challenge differently and do so [51:22] in a way with humility to our audience [51:25] I'm really encouraging an embrace of [51:27] that and I think the second part in [51:28] hearing from all of your answers is that [51:31] the contemporary issues we're dealing [51:32] with today we have a uh roadmap map um [51:37] of centuries and centuries of of of [51:40] Jewish life and of Jewish history and of [51:42] Jewish faith that we can look back to [51:44] that can help inform today. Um so with [51:47] that actually I'm going to turn to my [51:48] colleague Lauren. I know we have a lot [51:49] of audience Q&A going in and we'll see [51:51] how much we can cover in in the short [51:53] time we have. Thank you Maggie. And our [51:56] first question actually touches on that [51:58] a bit. So, our question from Laura [52:00] Newman is, "I appreciate your [52:02] distinction between engaging in [52:04] difficult conversation and not [52:05] discussing with those who aren't open. [52:08] The challenge is that it seems like so [52:09] many people are not open or are so [52:12] entrenched that I cannot find an [52:13] opening. Even when I acknowledge their [52:15] humility, sometimes they cannot [52:17] acknowledge mine. What then?" [52:22] >> For any of our panelists, whoever would [52:24] like to jump in, [52:26] >> I I'll start. But I'll I'll share [52:27] something and then uh others can jump [52:29] in. Um, one of the things uh that it's [52:32] such an important question and uh and [52:34] one rabbi sack actually uh as usual [52:37] wrote an entire book that I think can [52:40] help us to reframe and think about this [52:42] uh this precise issue because so much of [52:45] uh our conversation today is centered [52:48] around well how do I navigate these [52:50] differences when they seem unbridgegable [52:52] or when there's one conversation partner [52:54] as as uh as the questioner asks but not [52:56] the other it's not reciprocated right [52:58] takes two to tango uh and the like. And [53:01] so one of his books, uh, Rabbi Saxs [53:04] speaks about the home we build together. [53:07] And Rabbi Sax's core thesis in that book [53:10] is he looks at the tabernacle as Moses's [53:14] vehicle of getting all the Jews to [53:16] donate in order that they build a [53:18] community, as Rabbi Sax puts it, not [53:21] face-toface, but rather side by side. [53:25] And here's Rabbi Sax's insight. He draws [53:27] on evolutionary psychology as well. He [53:29] basically says we know that when we look [53:32] at the human being, we are wired to be [53:35] tribal. And when we feel that our [53:38] identity, whatever that's wrapped up in [53:40] is being threatened, what we do is we [53:42] retrench. So if we're engaging in a [53:43] conversation and the other side feels [53:45] like their fundamental commitments which [53:47] I might see see as completely absurd and [53:50] even obscene but they feel like their [53:52] fundamental commitments are being [53:53] challenged they will just simply uh pull [53:55] back says Rabbi Saxs perhaps we need to [53:58] think about the process differently. In [54:00] other words, instead of starting with [54:02] the substance, we think about this [54:04] actually as a function of whether we [54:06] whether the other person sees us as an [54:08] other or as part of the same group [54:12] because that is the natural instinct of [54:14] human beings. If we can partner with [54:16] them around an issue that is [54:18] specifically not controversial and we [54:20] can pull up our sleeves together and [54:22] explore a problem and build a community [54:24] project or whatever it might be, it [54:26] might not be about Israel. might not be [54:27] about the most painful and and uh and [54:30] divisive issues of the day, but rather [54:32] we build something together in and build [54:36] trust that I think is an [54:38] underappreciated [54:40] an incredibly powerful way of building [54:43] community. And I want to say that um I [54:46] was once in a in a school involved in a [54:48] school community where there were people [54:50] from different faith communities and [54:52] there were those who were very [54:54] anti-Israel and it was very very [54:56] complicated and they didn't get a chance [54:58] to talk everything through or to come to [55:00] agreement but they worked the parents [55:03] worked together on school projects and [55:06] um it created a level of trust that [55:08] didn't transform anything but it settled [55:10] everything down and um and the school [55:14] community was able to move forward even [55:16] though there remained disagreement. [55:22] >> Please go ahead. [55:23] >> Sure. So, so just to add a wonderful [55:26] story that Rabbi Sax tells which I think [55:29] highlights um Rabbi Si's comment, you [55:33] know, about the importance of of being [55:35] side by side if we can't necessarily [55:37] always be effectively face to face. Um [55:40] he tells the story of a a back channel [55:42] negotiation that was taking place in [55:44] London uh in which the king Hussein and [55:47] Shiman Perez it feels like I'm talking [55:49] about Shimon Perez a lot this evening [55:50] it's just a coincidence um but um but [55:54] their host um who was a British lord [55:56] held them both in their dinner and at [55:58] the end of the dinner they were both [56:00] about to get up and leave and he said no [56:02] you can't leave yet and they said why [56:04] not he said because you haven't done the [56:06] washing up and the king Hussein of [56:09] Jordan and Shimon Perez went over to the [56:12] sink and did the washing up for this [56:15] meal that they had had and it was his [56:17] way in a way of of communicating to them [56:21] you know the importance of being engaged [56:23] in sort of joint action even if it's a [56:25] small thing side by side and there's one [56:27] other phrase that Rabbi Saxs used quite [56:29] a lot that I think is relevant to this [56:32] he talked about something that he called [56:33] the chronological imagination and it's [56:36] quite a liberating thing which is It may [56:39] be that we cannot agree with everybody [56:43] at a particular time, but if you look at [56:45] Jewish history, people who were, you [56:48] know, if I go into the National Library [56:49] of Israel, it's so moving because you'll [56:51] have the books of the Vil Nagaon uh next [56:54] to the books of the kidic movements and [56:56] they were really burning each other [56:58] books at the time and now they're side [56:59] by side. And so he talks about something [57:02] called the chronological imagination. if [57:04] we can think of a get out of the moment [57:06] that we're in and think about ourselves [57:08] with the whole vista of Jewish history. [57:11] And that's why sometimes when I'm in in [57:13] groups where there are people who are at [57:15] loggerheads emotionally, I ask them to [57:19] add one word to their sentence. Instead [57:22] of saying I don't agree with you, just [57:24] to say I don't agree with you today. Who [57:28] knows what is going to happen? Who knows [57:30] what's going to happen to you? Who knows [57:32] what's going to happen to me? Who knows [57:33] what's going to happen in the world? And [57:35] let's hold out the possibility that [57:37] there will come a time when either of us [57:40] or both of us will see things a little [57:42] bit differently. [57:44] >> First of all, I don't think that I could [57:46] close on a better note than what you [57:48] just left us with, uh, Ambassador Ta. [57:51] So, I want to thank each of our [57:54] panelists for bringing um tremendous [57:57] insight both in the world, both in Rabbi [58:00] Saxs, and both in really weaving in [58:02] beautifully uh Torah in this moment and [58:05] a reminder to us all of that's really [58:07] our most foundational text and where [58:09] this all starts. Um so, my tremendous [58:12] appreciation to you all. I'm going to [58:14] pass it, I believe, to Lauren to [58:16] officially um uh wrap up our program. [58:21] Thank you so much, Maggie, and thank [58:23] you, Ambassador Tob, Dr. White, and [58:26] Rabbi Dr. Sinski for joining us for [58:28] today's AJC Advocacy Anywhere program in [58:31] honor of the 2026 Rabbi Saxs Day of [58:34] Learning. And thank you to our global [58:36] audience for taking part in this tribute [58:38] to Rabbi Sax's remarkable impact. You [58:41] can sign up to receive updates on [58:42] conversations, events, and resources [58:45] designed to deepen the connections [58:46] between Torah learning and Jewish [58:48] advocacy at ajac.org. [58:50] org/yearofjewishlearningupdates. [58:53] That's all one word. Thank you so much [58:55] again and goodbye.
