Transcript [00:01] Good evening, and thank you for joining [00:03] the New York Jewish Week and UJA [00:05] Federation of New York for a monthly [00:07] Folio Literary Series. [00:09] I'm Thea Wessel Tier, Director of Public [00:11] Programs at 70 Faces Media, parent [00:14] company of the New York Jewish Week. [00:17] It's a pleasure to welcome you to [00:18] tonight's conversation with Ruth [00:20] Margalit about her new book, In the [00:22] Belly of the Whale. We'll be diving into [00:25] a collection of profiles which represent [00:27] key figures from across Israel's [00:29] political and social spectrum and [00:32] reflect on her perspective as both a [00:34] writer, a mother, living in Tel Aviv at [00:37] a time of war. [00:39] This evening's Folio is presented [00:41] together with our partner UJA and is [00:43] moderated by Hillary Krieger, Executive [00:46] Editor of JTA and the New York Jewish [00:48] Week. [00:50] As many of you know, UJA's work in [00:52] Israel began long before the [00:53] establishment of Israel in 1948 [00:56] and remains central to its mission [00:58] today, helping Israelis in crisis and [01:01] everyday strengthening the bond between [01:04] Israel and diaspora and supporting a [01:06] Jewish democratic state. To learn more [01:09] about UJA's work in Israel, [01:12] there's a link that we'll put in the [01:13] chat for you. And now to our program. [01:17] Ruth Margalit is a Tel Aviv based [01:19] journalist and a contributing writer for [01:21] The New York Times Magazine. Her writing [01:24] regularly appears in the pages of The [01:26] New Yorker, where she was a member of [01:28] the editorial staff, and her book [01:30] reviews and essays are frequently [01:32] featured in The New York Review of [01:34] Books. She has also written for The New [01:36] York Times Book Review, The New [01:38] Republic, Slate, Book Forum, The [01:41] Columbia Journalism Review, and Haaretz. [01:45] Now, let's welcome Ruth and Hillary to [01:48] our virtual stage. Enjoy. [01:56] >> Thank you so much, uh, Thea, um, for the [01:59] welcome and introduction and thank you [02:01] to everyone who's here today to join us [02:04] for what will be [02:06] I'm sure very interesting conversation [02:08] and an important moment in Israeli [02:10] political history. [02:13] There's so many questions right now [02:14] about Israel's path forward. [02:17] Things that have her over us in the wake [02:19] of Israel's first election since October [02:21] 7th. And Ruth, your book which is a [02:24] compilation of profiles with Israelis [02:26] across political and religious lines [02:29] is the perfect way [02:31] for us to [02:33] get some context and to grapple with [02:35] what we're what we're witnessing. [02:38] And just a note to those who are [02:39] watching, please drop your questions in [02:41] the Q&A and I will try to get to as many [02:43] as possible over the next hour. [02:47] So Ruth, you named your book in the [02:49] belly of the whale. Can you explain why [02:51] you chose that name and how it connects [02:53] to our current moment? [02:55] >> Sure. And and first can I just say [02:58] thank you so much Hillary for doing this [03:00] and thank you all to for joining. This [03:02] is such an honor. [03:04] Yeah, in the belly of the whale, you [03:06] know, that name kept coming up that that [03:09] phrase kept coming up when I was working [03:12] on a profile of the politician Mansour [03:15] Abbas whose name is now very much in the [03:17] headlines since [03:19] 2015. [03:20] He's sort of he's re-emerging, but I was [03:23] working on it back in 2021 [03:25] profiling him for the New Yorker because [03:28] he had emerged as this Islamist leader [03:31] ahead of an Islamist party in Israel [03:33] which in itself is kind of this sort of [03:35] eccentric phenomenon. And [03:39] up until then no Arab party had ever [03:42] joined an Israeli coalition, a governing [03:44] coalition. [03:45] And he was intent on becoming the first [03:47] politician to do so. [03:49] None had been asked beforehand and also [03:52] the Arab parties themselves never wanted [03:55] to participate before because it was [03:57] seen as kind of lending their hands to [03:59] the sort of Zionist project of the land. [04:02] Um, and so he he thought that, you know, [04:05] he kind of broke that taboo, was the [04:07] first to do so. In um, and I So so that [04:11] was him, and then that that phrase kept [04:13] coming up because first of all, he is [04:15] very much a religious man. Um, and his [04:18] he has a a sheikh, he had a sheikh who [04:21] was his kind of his mentor. Um, [04:23] and that sheikh um said that Arab [04:26] Israelis live He likes to say to sort of [04:29] um you know, give the sermon of the of [04:32] of Jonah, what we in the Hebrew Bible [04:34] call Jonah, they call him Yunas, um, who [04:37] was swallowed by a whale and sort of [04:39] survived because of his piousness. Um, [04:42] and and he said that he likened Arab [04:44] Israelis to Jonah and said that that [04:48] they have to kind of navigate their [04:50] lives in the belly of the whale, meaning [04:52] the state of Israel. And I took that [04:54] metaphor for [04:55] Mansour Abbas, it was very much a live [04:57] metaphor, and I took that to heart and [05:00] and sort of adopted it to think about [05:03] Israel at large. And and the fact that [05:05] so many of us today, it's not only the [05:08] Arab Israelis here, but so many people [05:10] these days feel like outsiders in the [05:12] state, um, and and and I sort of In the [05:16] book, I framed it as people I I I [05:18] profiled people who are either kind of [05:21] being swallowed up by the whale or they [05:24] represent the whale, meaning they are [05:26] part of this kind of mechanism of of the [05:29] the sort of riding the waves of of this [05:32] populist right-wing, [05:34] you know, wave that that is washing over [05:36] all of us. And um, it seemed it seemed [05:39] sort of fitting. And I think it does so [05:42] even more now today as we speak sort of [05:45] in the wake of this election. [05:48] >> For sure. Um, and again, it's great to [05:50] speak to you in this particular moment. [05:53] Um, you talked to uh profile a lot of [05:56] different Israeli politicians in in the [05:59] book. You mention Mansour Abbas, there's [06:01] Mary Reguev from the Likud party, [06:03] there's um [06:05] Itamar Ben-Gvir of Otzma Yehudit, um, [06:07] the far-right, Yair Golan, um, of the [06:10] Democrats, which is sort of the the [06:12] remnants of the Israeli left. Um, I'm [06:14] wondering if, you know, the [06:17] the reporting and your experience of [06:19] writing these profiles, [06:20] you know, if you feel like you gained [06:22] some insights in terms of the Israeli [06:25] political mind and the political [06:27] persona, um, you know, things that would [06:30] be helpful for, um, people who are [06:32] watching right now as they're trying to [06:34] make sense of what we're seeing in the [06:35] Israeli political scene. You know, were [06:37] there themes that struck you or lessons [06:40] that you took away from your experience [06:42] being up close with these important [06:44] political figures? [06:47] >> Um, that's a really good question. You [06:49] know, I I I always come into these [06:51] profiles thinking that I have a kind of [06:54] sense of who the person is, but I I kind [06:56] of check that at the door and I try to [06:58] go in very open-minded, even with people [07:01] I know I will disagree with. And and to [07:04] sit with them and really hear them out. [07:06] And there are always interesting things [07:07] that come up and you learn, I mean, you [07:10] know, this is the Israeli society, you [07:12] know, the the kind of microcosm. So, for [07:14] example, I was working on this profile [07:16] of Miri Regev, as you mentioned, and she [07:19] represented at the reason I had pitched [07:21] her is as a kind of populist minister, [07:25] um, very much up and coming in [07:26] Netanyahu's government. She was the [07:28] culture minister at the time, making a [07:30] lot of headlines for, um, it's funny, [07:33] it's the same subjects that come up now. [07:35] This was a decade ago, but, you know, [07:37] sort of threatening to pull budgets away [07:40] from films that were critical of the [07:42] IDF. And now we have NASA, you know, [07:44] everything that I that I had started [07:46] kind of profiling a decade ago seems to [07:49] the volume seems to seems to have kind [07:51] of gone up in in that, um, in that time. [07:54] But she, I knew that I would be critical [07:56] of her and that I had a lot of [07:58] disagreement with her, but she took me [08:00] to her hometown in Kiryat Gat. She [08:03] showed me where she grew up, sleeping in [08:05] the same bunk bed with her grandmother [08:07] because they were very poor. I met her [08:09] parents who immigrated from Spain and [08:12] they they still listen to Spanish music [08:14] in their home. I mean, it's it's just [08:16] what you and it wasn't the kind of put [08:18] on show for me for for the benefit of a [08:21] reporter. This is what she does. She [08:23] goes home to her parents. This is who [08:25] they are. This is how she grew up. [08:27] There's always a sense um [08:29] you know, [08:31] sort of what threads us together. [08:32] Everything is so tight-knit and and we [08:35] know these communities. So, it's always [08:37] kind of it's an important lesson for me [08:39] because you kind of come in with these [08:41] preconceptions and then you're met up [08:44] you're sort of face-to-face with a [08:45] person and their complexities and the [08:47] way they grew up and and how that [08:49] influenced who they are. And there's [08:52] always something kind of humbling [08:53] because you realize that there is more [08:56] in common with a lot of these people [08:58] than when we sort of we think maybe [09:00] going in. Um sometimes it leads to very [09:03] hard conversations. I had One of them [09:05] was with a [09:07] um a television the television host, the [09:09] most popular television host in Channel [09:11] 14, which is the kind of pro-Netanyahu [09:14] very much the pro-Netanyahu network. I [09:17] it's my sense that really Channel 14 is [09:20] is a major reason why um the results of [09:23] the election [09:26] are the way they are. I mean, I think [09:28] had it not been for this kind of [09:29] propaganda machine by Netanyahu sort of [09:33] propagating for Netanyahu. I don't think [09:35] we that the the results would have been [09:36] so close. I think there would have been [09:39] more of a trumping. But in any case, in [09:41] Amwaj [09:42] there um [09:43] there were hard conversations. It was in [09:45] the middle of the Gaza war and he you [09:48] know, devastation after October 7th. I [09:51] came to him very um there was a sense of [09:54] kind of somberness all around and the [09:57] man was in ecstasy. You know, he was [10:01] there was a sense of euphoria that you [10:03] know, that that we're there to um you [10:06] know, Israel is there to resettle Gaza. [10:09] These are the best days ahead. [10:11] Um and and there there there was a real [10:13] kind of wake-up call for me to to [10:15] realize that wow, [10:16] you know, I I'm living with people for [10:19] whom this is this is a time as as one of [10:21] the ministers in the government said [10:23] it's a time of miracles. And and and to [10:25] see that kind of mirror image was really [10:28] was stark and and kind of shocking. So [10:31] so you know, it's so both are true. [10:33] Um yeah. [10:36] >> And you speaking of the election just [10:38] for people who might not have followed [10:40] quite as closely, [10:41] um the [10:43] uh results um have not given um enough [10:46] um [10:47] seats in the Knesset to either [10:49] Netanyahu's right-wing block or the more [10:53] the arguably more centrist um [10:55] Yum change block led by Gadi Eisenkot to [10:59] form their own coalitions. And so [11:02] there's um a wild card which is the uh [11:05] historic results, the highest um results [11:09] in terms of number of seats ever from [11:10] the Arab parties, one of which is um [11:13] Ra'am led by Mansour Abbas. [11:16] Um and it's interesting for you know, [11:18] you're saying that you think the results [11:19] would have been different. Um presumably [11:21] that Netanyahu got more support and the [11:23] far right got more support than you [11:25] might have seen without um [11:27] a Channel 14 station kind of [11:29] cheerleading for him. [11:31] Um but do you think it's a victory for [11:33] Netanyahu because both sides now are [11:35] trying to make the case that they can um [11:38] that they have got more support and are [11:41] have a viable path forward to actually [11:43] be the leaders. And it seems that that [11:47] argument has as much to do with how [11:49] people are positioning themselves as it [11:50] is actually looking at the numbers. Um [11:53] so your your phrasing makes it sound [11:56] like you're in a camp that thinks that [11:57] Netanyahu did do quite well given the [12:01] circumstances. [12:02] >> I think it was in no way a victory for [12:05] Netanyahu. I mean, you know, it was [12:07] a real wake-up call for his government. [12:11] Um you know, a [12:12] of Israelis voted against him. There's [12:14] no other way to look at it, you know, [12:16] this was he came into this election with [12:19] a 68 seat [12:21] um government, you know, out of 120, so [12:24] this is quite a strong majority going [12:27] in. Um he is now down to 50 [12:32] um I mean, it's sort of depending [12:34] Yeah, right, but but [12:36] I mean, and and then and and so then you [12:39] see I mean, they're down about 15 seats [12:42] and and and there's the majority of [12:44] Israelis voted against him. Um the the [12:47] the but I I think many of us in Israel [12:51] expected him to do worse and expectedly [12:54] could his own party to do worse. And [12:56] they could did emerge as the largest [12:58] party. Now, when you look at the [13:00] breakdown of votes, you see that what [13:02] actually Likud managed to do was to sort [13:05] of cannibalize parties from within [13:08] his coalition. He basically took I mean, [13:11] the voters went from the the far right [13:13] to Likud to kind of save Netanyahu. It's [13:16] not as if he managed to cross to make [13:18] people cross over from the other block [13:20] from the opposition block and vote for [13:22] him. But still, he is still in the game. [13:25] I think, you know, many in Israel were [13:28] possibly hoping that after this election [13:30] he will kind of leave the stage um and [13:33] and Eisenkot will take over. Now, it's [13:36] all unclear. It's unclear what will [13:37] happen. There is this deadlock [13:40] um and the question now is who will be [13:41] the first to kind of, you know, be able [13:44] to um [13:45] form a coalition of 61 seats and [13:48] convince the smaller parties to join [13:49] them. And and and it's a real it's a [13:51] real question. [13:53] >> And obviously the the Arab parties being [13:56] the the largest um numbers that could [14:00] sway or could come together to put the [14:04] opposition coalition over the top um to [14:07] get a majority. [14:09] Um but there's a lot of internal [14:11] resistance um in Israel, especially [14:13] after October 7th, having Arab parties [14:16] in the government. And in fact, um the [14:19] major opposition parties, with the [14:21] exception of Yair Golan, the Democrats [14:23] have said that they wouldn't work with [14:25] the Arab parties. [14:26] Um I was wondering if you could just [14:27] tell us a bit about this um really surge [14:31] in in Arab turnout. We saw about twice [14:34] as many Arab voters in in Israel. They [14:37] Arabs are about 20% of the Israeli [14:39] population. They they doubled their [14:41] participation almost in in terms of [14:43] voting. Um the number of seats that they [14:46] have in the Knesset that they've almost [14:47] doubled. Um what do you think is the [14:49] message behind this turnout and and what [14:52] it sort of sends it sort of says to the [14:55] Israeli Jewish uh population that that [14:59] there's this strong showing? [15:01] >> Yeah, the [15:01] the showing was incredible. And you [15:03] would think that, you know, [15:06] a response to the situation in the West [15:09] Bank, um [15:10] you know, that there there are these [15:12] rights in the West Bank, Jewish [15:13] settlers, um really I mean the the the [15:16] Palestinian villagers being really [15:18] driven out of of many of these villages. [15:20] I was just there. 11 villages I had seen [15:23] with my own eyes that were there um in [15:25] the past are no longer. I mean, you see [15:27] these sort of the the the their, you [15:29] know, belongings are on the ground. Just [15:31] villages have kind of fled. Um and so [15:34] after seeing what happened in the West [15:37] Bank, the way that Ben-Gvir, Itamar [15:39] Ben-Gvir, this far-right minister, he is [15:41] in charge of the police, and and and [15:44] kind of has not tackled um crime in Arab [15:47] communities, which is really shooting [15:49] through the roof. Um it's it's at an [15:51] all-time high, murder rates, all of it. [15:54] You would expect that maybe seeing all [15:56] of that, um and the devastation of Gaza [15:59] also, which affects many of these Arab [16:01] um Israelis because they have families [16:03] there, you would think that maybe they [16:05] would completely sour on participating [16:09] in in the democratic process and in [16:10] election. And in fact, what you saw was [16:13] the opposite. Um and I think that was [16:15] quite something for Israelis to witness. [16:17] Um [16:18] and and to to to realize, you know, that [16:20] these are [16:21] sort of citizens in the country and that [16:23] they're willing to participate in this [16:26] democratic project, um, and and that [16:30] you know, that that they could be [16:32] partners, they could represent partners [16:34] for Jewish Israelis. But you're right [16:37] that there is, you know, even though a [16:38] majority of Israelis, as we said, voted [16:40] against Netanyahu, um, the the majority [16:44] it includes these Arab parties and now [16:46] there's this really big question of [16:47] whether, um, Eisenkot will be able to [16:51] swear in a government with that relies [16:54] on these Arab parties for support, um, [16:57] and it would mean bringing in Ra'am, the [17:00] Islamist party within the govern- the [17:02] coalition because really that party [17:04] wants to influence politics from within [17:07] with the abstention, um, [17:09] the the other, um, [17:11] Arab party, the Joint List, would [17:13] abstain and provide kind of support from [17:15] outside or however, however the dynamics [17:18] will work, there is an option of doing [17:21] that. [17:22] But for many Israelis, for many Jewish [17:24] Israelis, as you said, after October [17:26] 7th, that's very hard to stomach. And so [17:29] so these questions are now that's those [17:32] are the headlines and we've already [17:34] started seeing, um, kind of the a real [17:38] from Netanyahu's camp, a real campaign [17:41] to, um, disenfranchise those votes and [17:44] to say that they were funded by money [17:46] from outside, [17:48] that that Qatar poured in money, um, [17:51] millions of dollars of money to kind of, [17:53] I don't know, if send in to kind of, um, [17:57] I don't even know how that would work, [17:59] but sort of presumably to send in agents [18:01] on its behalf to vote or or double vote [18:04] or or think turn up the the the [18:06] Palestinian-Israeli vote. So so that is [18:09] in the headlines and and that's all [18:12] everyone is talking about. In the [18:14] meantime, Netanyahu is trying to form a [18:16] coalition of his own and perhaps there [18:18] will be this kind of national unity [18:20] government with Netanyahu and Eisenkot [18:24] and a third party perhaps Bennett, maybe [18:26] someone else, Lieberman, joining in as a [18:29] kind of compromise. Um, it's very hard [18:31] to convince the opposition side to do [18:34] that, to join the Netanyahu government. [18:36] It's also I can't imagine Netanyahu um [18:39] wanting that. It I think that is an [18:42] option that very much um will would have [18:44] to come from outside. I think many I [18:46] think there's an expectation that [18:49] perhaps Trump would push for this. Um, [18:51] that this is his preferred option. He [18:53] already kind of briefed some Israeli [18:55] journalists to say that that's what he [18:57] wants to see. [18:59] Um, and so I think there could be [19:00] pressure on both in both camps for that [19:03] to, you know, for that option to to sort [19:05] of emerge as as the leading um governing [19:08] coalition. But but for for both leaders [19:11] and and for the other opposition [19:13] leaders, this will be I mean, these are [19:15] really really um kind of nerve-wracking [19:17] days. [19:18] >> And the opposition the parties which [19:21] actually span quite a wide ideological [19:24] range. You have Avigdor Lieberman who's [19:26] very right-wing. [19:28] Um, you have um Yair Lapid brought in [19:31] his um Yesh Atid supporters into um [19:35] a space that's now more it's sort of [19:37] center-right, centrist, if you, you [19:40] know, but it it there's a span there and [19:41] of course the Democrats [19:43] but they what unified them was this idea [19:45] of removing Netanyahu that this was [19:47] really the driving force. So, if you're [19:49] Eisenkot and you've told your voters [19:51] you're you know, you're standing against [19:53] another Netanyahu uh term and you've [19:55] also told your voters that you wouldn't [19:57] partner with um Arab parties. I mean, [20:00] which if which of those promises is [20:01] easier for him to break in terms of [20:03] where the sort of the bulk of the [20:05] Israeli electorate and certainly, you [20:07] know, the the people who voted for the [20:09] opposition, what what they would be um [20:12] more tolerant of seeing. [20:14] >> Right. Right. Um, I think interestingly [20:16] with Eisenkot he never ruled it out [20:19] completely sitting with Arab parties. He [20:21] said something about how he always said [20:24] when asked this question of whether he [20:25] would join a coalition with them, he he [20:28] would always say something about how he [20:30] believes he would have a Zionist [20:31] majority, that he wouldn't have to do [20:34] that. He never ruled it out completely. [20:36] I think he kind of left a room for [20:38] maneuver. [20:40] Um and if he did, it was quite it was [20:42] quite, you know, it wasn't as blatant as [20:45] the way Lieberman, especially Lieberman [20:48] from the from the right-wing and and and [20:50] Lieberman and also Naftali Bennett, both [20:52] of them um veto the option of sitting [20:55] with Arab parties. I think, you know, [20:58] for Lieberman, he said he will not sit [21:00] with Netanyahu, he will not sit with [21:02] Arab parties, and he will not sit with [21:03] ultra-Orthodox Khaleidi parties. [21:06] One of the I mean, if he wants to serve [21:08] in a coalition, he would have to give up [21:10] at least on one of those. So, now it's a [21:11] hierarchy of kind of for him the lesser [21:14] evil. Um I don't know what that [21:16] calculation would be. [21:17] Um but there is I will say that there [21:20] you know, from within Israel, and [21:22] especially I live in Tel Aviv, and I [21:24] think it this is very true for Tel Aviv, [21:26] there is a real push [21:29] um [21:29] for from the Israeli public that that [21:31] that wanted change to pressure the [21:34] opposition leaders to get this thing [21:38] through and to to swear in a government. [21:41] For Lieberman to get over his hang-ups [21:43] sitting with the Arab parties, for [21:44] Bennett to do the same, for Eisenkot to [21:47] to just, you know, to topple Netanyahu [21:50] and to to have a a fresh start, [21:52] basically. Um that this is more [21:54] important. I don't know whether it will [21:56] be enough. But but there is this push, [21:58] and I've I've spoken to some to to many [22:00] in the campaigns and today, and and they [22:03] they feel it, you know, they get these [22:05] calls, um they're aware of of what their [22:07] constituency wants, but who knows? [22:10] Um and and I think there's also a sense, [22:12] and we've we've seen the reports in the [22:14] last few days, that there could be [22:16] another kind of crisis with Iran, that [22:19] Israel and the US are preparing to [22:22] perhaps strike [22:23] um [22:24] Tehran right after the US midterm. And [22:27] if that were to happen, then I think the [22:29] pressure for a kind of national unity [22:32] government and for Netanyahu and [22:34] Eisenkot to somehow come together would [22:37] increase. And I don't know what that [22:39] would mean. [22:40] Um, I think Netanyahu's preferred option [22:42] at this point is to serve as a kind of [22:47] caretaker in a caretaker position um, [22:50] through this deadlock and to go towards [22:52] another to head towards another [22:53] election. I think he would keep He [22:55] thinks that he would be in a better spot [22:58] in 6 months [22:59] um, reorganizing his his base. You won't [23:02] have these Israelis who come from abroad [23:04] the way they did now in record numbers [23:07] to vote him out. Most of them came to [23:09] vote him out. They were hoping to do [23:11] that. And I think his calculation is [23:13] that he would rather see another [23:15] election run. But but we'll see. We'll [23:17] see what happens. [23:19] >> And you mentioned the role of Trump um, [23:21] and he endorsed Netanyahu um, twice [23:25] before the election. Um, you know, he [23:28] historically has been very popular in [23:30] Israel and in contrast to many other [23:32] countries um, especially in the West. [23:35] Um, do you think that that pressure um, [23:39] whether it's because he is a negotiator [23:42] and he can apply, you know, pressure on [23:44] things that Israel really needs um, in [23:47] terms of military, you know, diplomatic [23:50] support etc. Or just symbolically by [23:53] because of the power of being the [23:54] president and you know, what remains of [23:56] I think a lesser popularity but still [23:58] more popularity in Israel than than [24:01] maybe among the American public. Do you [24:03] think that that's a role that he can [24:05] really exercise influence on and that [24:08] ultimately could be decisive in what we [24:11] see happen? [24:13] >> I don't know if it will be the decisive [24:15] factor, but I think his weight is [24:17] enormous in Israel. Any any US president [24:20] to be I mean, still the US Israel [24:22] alliance it for Israelis matters deeply. [24:26] Um, even when they criticize, you know, [24:28] when they they criticize the US [24:30] president or there's talk about a kind [24:32] of falling out or whatever. For [24:34] Israelis, this is the [24:36] the sense is that you know, this is the [24:38] most important thing in terms of foreign [24:40] policy. And so so I think what what he [24:43] will say will carry a huge [24:45] will have a huge weight. Um [24:48] And and as you say, Trump himself is [24:50] still very popular in Israel. That [24:53] popularity decreased a little after the [24:56] the kind of Iran the latest Iran um [25:00] military operation in Israel. [25:02] Many Israelis wanted it to continue. [25:04] They thought that he pulled out too too [25:06] quickly. Even though I know in the US [25:08] the pressure was the opposite. [25:11] So so you know, that again it's this [25:13] sort of sense of a mirror image. But [25:16] um [25:17] But but he remains a hugely popular [25:19] figure. And and also the fact that you [25:21] know, that the US president who released [25:23] the hostages. I mean the Israelis [25:25] remember that and they will always [25:26] remember that and I think that that that [25:28] is to his credit and will remain to his [25:31] credit. And and whatever I think he'll [25:34] yeah, if he decides that he wanted to [25:36] see a national unity government, there [25:37] will be increased pressure on all the [25:40] different leaders to at least weigh [25:41] that. But but I don't know. Ultimately I [25:45] think [25:46] who knows? [25:47] I actually I at this time I don't know. [25:49] The deadlock is such a deadlock that [25:51] it's that it's it's it's really unclear [25:54] what will emerge. [25:56] >> And so one of our audience members also [26:00] wants to know if in addition to Trump [26:02] other Americans including the American [26:04] Jewish community [26:05] can do anything. This would be to push [26:08] Netanyahu out. I take it this this [26:11] viewer is not a fan of the current [26:13] Israeli government. So do you think [26:15] there's a role for the American Jewish [26:17] community to play in boosting the [26:20] opposition [26:21] and creating a more of a chance that [26:23] they're able to overcome the obstacles [26:27] to to get to power? [26:29] >> Wow. [26:30] That's a really good question. I I don't [26:33] know. I don't know what that pressure [26:34] can look like exactly. And I think [26:37] there's also a deep suspicion for many [26:39] Israelis, [26:41] um, if if there was a sense that [26:43] Eisenkot is kind of being supported from [26:45] outside, [26:47] you know, or is being somehow [26:49] maneuvered, I think that would that [26:51] would not look good. Um, but in terms of [26:55] I think the the sanctions on the [26:58] settlements, you know, [27:00] threatening with sanctions on what is [27:02] happening in the West Bank, [27:04] is [27:05] is can help. Because what it what it [27:08] does, it sort of sets, um, [27:10] it it severs out the the the extremist [27:14] elements of Netanyahu's government and [27:16] the rest of Israelis who don't want to [27:19] see that. What is happening now in the [27:21] West Bank, the kind of lawlessness there [27:23] and the riots there, um, [27:25] they're even if you know, you see these [27:27] internal polls in Israel, they're poor [27:29] they're polling very poorly. Israelis [27:31] don't want to see what is happening in [27:33] the West Bank. And yet there's a sense [27:35] that Netanyahu is now very weak to stand [27:38] up to his far-right coalition partners, [27:41] especially Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, um, [27:44] the the you know, and and their settler [27:46] base and that he will not do that. And [27:48] so if there was a sense perhaps from [27:51] from the kind of from outside, from [27:52] American Jews, that this is unacceptable [27:55] and that really kind of threatening [27:56] sanctions, you know, with financial [27:58] markets will [28:00] will not will no longer you know, kind [28:02] of, um, [28:03] do dealings or business deals with these [28:06] with these settlers or with, um, these [28:08] communities, then possibly that could [28:10] make a difference. I don't know. Or I [28:12] mean, there there have been under Biden [28:14] even there there started being these [28:16] lists of of of of actual names of [28:19] settlers who are rioting and and kind of [28:21] really kind of criminals. Um, and [28:25] and that helped. I know that that helped [28:27] because for them it made a difference, [28:28] you know, their names, they couldn't [28:29] travel, they couldn't open bank accounts [28:32] anywhere. Um, that that is substantial. [28:35] So, I think that is, you know, kind of [28:37] and anything that peels off these [28:40] far-right elements from the rest of [28:42] Israel and that doesn't boycott Israel [28:45] at large, [28:46] doesn't boycott the Israeli sort of [28:49] resistance or change or whatever [28:51] whatever you want to call it and and [28:53] that still opens, you know, kind of [28:55] extends a hand to the Israeli public [28:58] while also making clear that these [29:00] extremist elements should be [29:03] shunned and that they're unacceptable, I [29:06] think could help. [29:08] >> Speaking of the sanctions and just in [29:11] general, you know, worldwide criticism [29:14] of what's happened in the West Bank but [29:16] also [29:18] the Gaza war, you've just seen in, you [29:20] know, the past several years Israel's [29:22] image in the world reaching historic [29:25] lows in many cases. [29:27] And the experience of Israelis going [29:29] abroad, I personally have friends who [29:32] wouldn't go abroad because they were [29:34] afraid of how they were going to be [29:35] treated from as Israelis traveling in [29:38] Europe. [29:39] So, is that sense of sort of what's [29:42] happening in the world, [29:44] is that something that Israelis connect [29:46] to Netanyahu specifically? Is that [29:49] something that is [29:51] um [29:52] pushing the opposition against him and [29:53] that is a challenge for him [29:56] or is it the opposite that, you know, [29:57] Netanyahu has always, you know, [30:00] really relied on his good friendship [30:02] with Trump and made the case that he's [30:04] the best communicator and that only he [30:06] can really save Israel from the [30:09] onslaught of criticism and hate and the [30:12] strong leader is what's needed now. Like [30:14] how have Israelis sensed what's [30:16] happening externally and and and then [30:18] translated that into their political [30:21] activity? [30:23] >> I think there's a real problem in Israel [30:25] in that [30:26] for much of the Gaza war a lot of those [30:29] images did not come through Israeli [30:31] media. It did not, you know, the Israeli [30:34] news did not really report on what was [30:36] happening except through the kind of the [30:39] lens of IDF reporters. [30:41] So sorry, IDF soldiers. The you know, [30:44] obviously reporters were not allowed in. [30:46] The only way to go in was through these [30:48] through these in-beds with the military, [30:51] which is very sort of clinical. So so [30:53] you would see these reporters going in, [30:55] but you wouldn't see Palestinians [30:57] anywhere because the you know, it was [30:59] with the military. So it was all kind of [31:01] military ground and and everything was [31:04] cleared. So Israelis did not get those [31:08] the footage that a lot of the world that [31:10] you know, much of the other [31:12] anywhere else did of what was happening [31:14] in Gaza. So for many Israelis going [31:16] abroad and seeing the way [31:20] they are you know, when they say they're [31:21] from Israel and to see the backlash, for [31:23] many [31:25] it was shocking. I mean, it still is [31:27] shocking no matter right, there's no [31:30] defending that however you you spin it. [31:33] But but there was a sense that it wasn't [31:35] it was like [31:36] I think for many Israelis the sense was [31:38] that October 7th happened. Israelis in [31:41] trauma and then they go abroad and they [31:44] get it even worse. You know, they're [31:45] they're even more maligned. They're even [31:47] more hated. And how is that possible? [31:50] I think many turned to Netanyahu in this [31:52] election out of fear. You know, there's [31:55] a sense of a big unknown. The world is [31:57] against us. All they know is this one [31:59] leader who's been in charge for 20 years [32:02] and they kind of hold on to that because [32:04] anything else is too scary. [32:06] And and there's a lot of distrust and [32:11] and and so I think in that sense [32:14] the [32:15] Israeli media by not showing that, not [32:18] showing those images and that the [32:19] footage, it was really a disservice to [32:22] Israelis first and foremost. There was a [32:24] sense even though of course we could all [32:27] open our phones if we wanted and go you [32:29] know, and and and and see you know, log [32:31] on to any website, but many did not. You [32:34] know, Israelis what they get is their [32:36] you know, channel 12, channel 14, the [32:38] Netanyahu network. They get their news [32:40] from Telegram, from this sort of the [32:42] local [32:43] Hebrew, you know, Hebrew language kind [32:45] of updates. [32:47] They didn't Those images did not go go [32:50] through and there was a real and still [32:52] is a real disconnect between Israel and [32:56] the rest of the world in that sense. [32:58] And that is a real shame for a country [33:00] that had been so much, you know, in in [33:03] the midst in in in the mix of everything [33:05] kind of, you know, [33:06] just in in the forefront of both [33:08] innovation and also kind of inter, you [33:11] know, international relations to be this [33:13] isolated. And for it to happen so [33:16] quickly and so intensely [33:19] is is is quite shocking. [33:22] >> And we're talking about some of the [33:24] objections that the [33:26] Jewish Zionist um [33:29] constituency would have with [33:31] um a government bringing in Arab [33:33] parties, but there's also [33:36] um a lot of criticism within the Arab [33:39] community about the idea of joining into [33:41] um a Zionist governing coalition. And [33:45] Mansour Abbas, who is from the Islamist [33:48] party, [33:49] um which has its roots um connected [33:52] originally to the Muslim Brotherhood, um [33:56] definitely would face [33:58] um his own [33:59] potential challenges within his [34:01] community. [34:02] Um and beyond that, the joint list is [34:05] even more generally opposed to the idea [34:08] of serving within the government. And so [34:10] I'm wondering if you could talk a little [34:11] bit about the dynamics within the [34:14] the Arab population and and from your [34:17] time profiling Abbas, um explain a [34:20] little bit about why he made this [34:23] historic shift he did last time to be [34:25] the first leader of an Arab party to be [34:27] part of the coalition and why, you know, [34:30] this is something that he's looking to [34:32] do again um [34:35] despite his personal um strong Muslim [34:39] beliefs. Um he he said the other day [34:41] that he actually had also been getting [34:43] calls from right-wing government people [34:46] of part of the Netanyahu coalition. So, [34:47] there's at least some kind of thought [34:50] that that that could be in play, um, [34:52] though all these rumors run around for [34:55] reasons that don't necessarily have to [34:56] do with what's actually going to be the [34:57] governing coalition right now in this [34:58] sort of deal making period. Um, but if [35:01] you could talk a little bit about his [35:03] character and the evolution of his party [35:05] and and where that stands, um, and what [35:07] he believes now. Um, and what he would [35:10] bring into the government. I think that [35:11] could be really illuminating. [35:13] >> Sure. You know, it's interesting. I [35:15] spent weeks with him on the road and in [35:17] his house and and you know, [35:19] um, he lives in a um, in a [35:22] village in northern Israel. It's Arab [35:24] city but a very small one called Mughar. [35:27] Um, and where the Muslim community is [35:29] the minority. It's it's um, [35:32] and and and so he's he he called himself [35:34] a kind of minority within a minority. [35:37] Um, most are Christian and Druze. [35:40] And he, um, [35:43] even though you're right that he he [35:45] belongs, [35:46] um, he belongs, you know, that that he [35:48] comes from an Islamist party that is [35:49] part of the Muslim Brotherhood. In [35:51] Israel, there's a real split between the [35:53] northern branch of the Muslim [35:55] Brotherhood and the southern branch. The [35:57] northern branch is very radical. Um, [36:00] it's much more in the the vein of kind [36:02] of Hamas or what you would imagine the [36:04] the sort of the militarized um, Muslim [36:06] Brotherhood movement. The southern [36:08] branch is and has been from the start [36:11] um, [36:12] extremely, uh, [36:15] just peaceful into the sense of [36:18] coexistence. His, you know, when Mansour [36:20] Abbas's Sheikh, the one I mentioned [36:22] earlier, his mentor, Darwish, he he was [36:25] in an Israeli prison and then came out [36:27] of it as a sort of with the realization [36:30] that the only way forward is through [36:32] complete cooperation with, um, with with [36:35] the with um, Jewish Israelis. And in [36:38] fact, Mansour Abbas supports a national [36:40] draft for Arab Israelis. He He says, you [36:44] know, with they don't have to serve um [36:45] to to carry guns and serve in the actual [36:47] military, but he wants to see some sort [36:49] of national service. He thinks it would [36:51] be a good thing. And you you can say [36:53] that this is something he tells a [36:54] reporter or, you know, some that that [36:57] that it's his or that this is all kind [36:59] of political calculation. [37:01] But I will say that the man the man came [37:04] up as an Imam in his local mosque. He is [37:08] a a sulha, what they call a a man of [37:10] sulha. What he does every day, before he [37:12] became a politician, he would drive to [37:14] these communities in the north and south [37:16] south of Israel, [37:18] um where families were torn apart, these [37:21] hamulas who were that were fighting and [37:23] really, you know, murders between [37:25] different hamulas, and he would be that [37:27] he would be the guy they would call to [37:29] form the sulha, the peacemaking [37:31] ceremonies. He would do hundreds of [37:33] them. There are videos of him making [37:35] these, you know, these sulhas. They're [37:37] very moving. I attended some. And and [37:40] after that, those hamulas there's peace, [37:42] you know, that they're they're they're [37:44] no more murders. There's no more [37:45] violence. He manages to and and and he [37:48] it's not only that he comes in and does [37:50] these ceremonies, he talks to the family [37:52] members beforehand to figure out what, [37:55] you know, what the disagreement is and [37:57] where, you know, where where the [37:59] bitterness lies and how to resolve that [38:01] and how to move forward. This is a man [38:04] of peace. I mean, that that that is in [38:06] his nature. And you're right that the [38:10] you know, the um joint is there elements [38:12] there that do not want to cooperate with [38:14] with um with with Israel and with the [38:17] kind of Zionist government, and so they [38:19] would not be part of the government. [38:22] But the way, I mean, the way it happened [38:24] last time when Naftali Bennett swore in [38:27] Mansour Abbas's party is that they I [38:30] mean, he his party very much wanted to [38:34] influence the lives of Arab Israelis. [38:37] And in fact, the criticism against [38:39] Mansour Abbas from Palestinians [38:42] is that he doesn't care so much about [38:44] the Palestinian project at large. He [38:47] really just cares about guaranteeing the [38:50] lives, the livelihoods, the peace of [38:52] Palestinian Israelis living, you know, [38:54] the Israeli citizens, um the Palestinian [38:57] citizens of Israel. Uh so, so that's [39:00] where the criticism lies. It's not so [39:02] much [39:03] um [39:04] you know, he he cares less about [39:07] Obviously, he cares what is happening in [39:09] Gaza, what is happening um elsewhere, [39:11] but that's not where um where he sees [39:14] his chance of kind of influencing or [39:16] making a difference. And so, so there's [39:19] a real change, you know, there's a real [39:20] kind of split between his party and the [39:23] joint list of parties, which is an [39:25] alliance of different factions, some of [39:28] whom um you know, [39:31] kind of [39:32] you they believe to different degrees in [39:34] whether they in whether the way forward [39:36] is to cooperate and participate in the [39:39] kind of democratic um [39:41] you know, national elections and in the [39:43] government or whether to to stay out. [39:46] But um [39:47] yeah, the the the Arab Israeli [39:50] community in Israel is is just [39:52] fascinating in that sense. And and and [39:55] lives are, you know, everyone here knows [39:58] like their their lives are threaded with [40:01] the lives of Jewish Israelis. It's it's [40:03] it's impossible to separate the two. [40:06] Um [40:07] and so, so I think it is it can [40:09] represent a way forward if the change [40:12] block, the opposition block actually [40:14] embraces it and and sees it as a chance, [40:17] as as sort of an opportunity perhaps. [40:19] And and [40:21] I don't know. There there's a real [40:22] question of whether whether they would [40:24] have both the political courage and the [40:26] actual kind of electoral fingers to make [40:29] it possible. [40:31] >> Um one of the other factions that um you [40:34] mentioned briefly is ultra-Orthodox [40:35] parties. [40:37] Um and you in your book spent time with [40:40] uh the showrunners for a very popular [40:42] show um giving Israelis I think a real [40:46] insight into the ultra-Orthodox world um [40:50] through their through their TV program [40:51] called Shtisel, which maybe some people [40:53] here have seen. [40:54] Um the Haredi parties did not do as well [40:58] um as they have in other uh cases and [41:02] the issue of the exemption that has been [41:05] traditionally given to um ultra-Orthodox [41:08] men from serving in the army has become [41:11] a a real boiling issue. There literally [41:14] somewhat violent street protests about [41:16] this issue that are happening now. Um [41:18] this is a issue that's been kicked down [41:20] the [41:21] road for for years and years. In this in [41:24] this environment where people it really [41:26] became a voting issue, do you see that [41:28] getting resolved and do you think [41:31] what do you sort of make of the the [41:33] lower showing for the the Haredi parties [41:36] and again just from your conversation [41:38] with these two men who are bringing this [41:40] world to the Israeli public, [41:42] um I'm wondering if you talk a little [41:43] bit about the nuance of the issue and [41:46] the community and and what the the pro [41:49] the possibilities are sort of moving [41:51] forward. I think it's painted very black [41:53] or white, but I think it's probably a [41:55] bit more complicated. [41:56] >> Yeah. Yeah, and I'm really glad you [41:58] brought this up because I think it's a [41:59] subject that gets lost with when the [42:02] kind of breakdown of the of the election [42:04] results is happening, the Haredi issue [42:07] is mentioned less than the Arab turnout, [42:10] which is huge and the kind of you know, [42:11] the [42:13] opposition versus coalition and the and [42:15] those calculations, but the Haredi the [42:17] fact that the the support their support [42:19] has really eroded um says a lot. And and [42:24] what what it says especially is how [42:26] unpopular the their exemption from from [42:29] the military conscription is. [42:31] And also [clears throat] there's an [42:33] emergence of a new Haredi party. It did [42:35] not pass the threshold needed um to [42:38] enter the Knesset, but it's called the [42:41] the um Haredim Hadashim, the the new the [42:44] new Haredi. [42:46] And these are this is a completely new [42:48] phenomenon of Haredim ultra-Orthodox [42:52] seeking representation who say that they [42:55] want to participate in the labor market. [42:58] Some of them want to to be conscripted [43:00] to the army, and there's a real showing [43:03] for women for for you know for [43:06] female politicians from this party, and [43:08] I think it did not pass [43:10] it did not enter Knesset this time, [43:13] but it got enough votes and enough [43:15] interest and enough it scared the kind [43:19] of traditional rabbis from the [43:21] traditional parties so much that you can [43:24] see that this is a real hot button [43:26] issue, and I really expect that sector [43:29] to start rising [43:31] in the next few years, and I think it's [43:33] it's I mean it's a really heartening [43:35] thing to watch. You see Haredi you know [43:38] the Haredi public kind of turning [43:40] against some of them. It's it's still in [43:42] small numbers, but once it happens, once [43:45] that taboo is broken again another [43:47] taboo, [43:48] I think we could see an uptick in in [43:51] seeing them wanting to participate more. [43:53] I mean Haredi women have always worked. [43:55] Their their employment rate is like 90 [43:58] something percent. It's Haredi men who [44:00] go to these yeshivas, and because they [44:03] they they want to be exempt from [44:04] national from from military service, [44:07] they stay in these yeshivas and and [44:09] don't work. I mean often you know well [44:11] into their 20s, 30s, and later, [44:14] and so it's a real it's a kind of [44:16] downward cycle where you know the [44:19] exemption from military service also [44:21] leads to lack of participation in the [44:23] labor force, [44:25] leads to really impoverished rates, and [44:28] and the high [44:29] the high [44:31] impoverishment also leads to seeking [44:33] these subsidies from the state and being [44:36] reliant on these subsidies, and and so [44:39] all of it is there's a sense that kind [44:41] of Israelis at large have had enough [44:43] with this. [44:45] The the thing that tipped the the tipped [44:47] it over is really this exemption from [44:49] military service, [44:50] and you know as there's like Israel has [44:53] been at war now for 3 years [44:55] and these men [44:58] go out to protest saying [45:00] we either you know, we won't conscript [45:02] if we conscript we'd rather die. [45:05] You know, that there's a sense that what [45:07] is happening now in Israel is called [45:10] sharing the burden. And and the fact [45:12] that that this community does not share [45:15] the burden of taxes of military [45:17] conscription has become a huge lightning [45:19] rod and [45:21] and I think for the Netanyahu it also [45:22] represents a real problem because his [45:24] whole thing against the Arab parties is [45:26] to say we want a Zionist majority. Well, [45:29] you're relying on a majority that isn't [45:31] Zionist, right? That these parties are [45:33] anti-Zionist [45:35] and and if you go after the Arab parties [45:37] for not participating in the military [45:39] conscription, well, your own coalition [45:42] partners also don't participate, right? [45:44] And you're exempting them. And so so [45:46] it's become I mean I mean it's it's a [45:48] real hard um [45:51] it's a hard thing for him to kind of [45:54] deal with to to grapple and to explain [45:56] to the Israeli public is how these [45:59] communities have become his natural [46:00] coalition partners where in fact, you [46:03] know, everything he kind of preaches [46:04] against with the Arab parties exists [46:08] you know, even more so with his own [46:10] Haredi constituents. I will say about [46:14] just a kind of to close off the cuz we [46:16] you started by asking about Shtisel [46:18] and I think you know, with everything [46:21] that's happening now with the Haredim [46:23] and I see the real sense I mean Israelis [46:26] have it's almost like a hatred now among [46:28] secular Israelis towards them and and [46:31] the real malignment and and that is and [46:34] also very scary to see because you know, [46:38] this is [46:39] really heterogeneous. I mean [46:41] the community there there's there's [46:43] multitudes and and [46:46] um [46:47] and and the the kind of them being now [46:49] painted into this box [46:52] um does again a disservice both to them [46:55] and to the larger kind of Israeli [46:57] public. So, I really hope that actually [46:59] this election maybe serves as a as a [47:02] sort of crossroads and that we will see [47:04] these this emergence of a kind of new [47:07] new Haredi sector that is that is more [47:09] willing to speak up and to participate [47:13] and and to take part in you know in in [47:15] Israeli military and and and yeah, [47:20] all of it labor force etc. [47:23] >> I mean, if you characterize the parties [47:25] as as anti-Zionist and I'm not sure if [47:27] where they exactly [47:29] >> They call them non-Zionist. Non-Zionist. [47:32] >> maybe nine is Zionist more, but to your [47:34] point that certainly many actually many [47:36] of the people who vote who are in these [47:39] parties are very Zionist who do believe [47:41] in the state of Israel and you're seeing [47:43] I think that's another sort of [47:44] difference you're seeing between the [47:45] younger generations is more of an [47:47] identification especially after October [47:49] 7th realizing that the state of Israel [47:52] is what's protecting them and what [47:53] they're part of and so I think that [47:56] there's this divergence between those [47:58] those top the top older [48:00] >> but but also with their politicians were [48:02] not willing to speak up in those terms. [48:04] I mean, they're not willing to to quite [48:06] say that. And so, there's a real [48:07] disconnect between also their you know [48:10] the the the voting public and who they [48:12] stand to Knesset their representatives. [48:16] >> I've also struggled to understand how [48:19] Netanyahu um [48:21] you know really needs the [48:23] the support of the very hardcore right [48:26] that's very nationalistic and very [48:28] militaristic and in fact, you've seen um [48:31] one of the the coalition parties the [48:33] religious Zionist party um [48:35] disproportionately [48:37] soldiers killed in Gaza were from the [48:39] religious Zionist part of the Israeli [48:43] population and so to be Netanyahu who [48:47] has these um parties that really want to [48:50] see service and military action [48:54] and then to be the person who's sort of [48:57] keeping the the young Haredi men from [48:59] not serving. I've never sort of [49:01] understood how those [49:03] parties could cohabit together, so. [49:05] >> Yeah, and no, and in fact, I think it [49:07] shows a real weakness. [49:09] It's a coalition that will not be able [49:12] to function. [49:13] It's It's not a coalition that will [49:15] survive and be strong for years to come [49:17] because you can already see the split [49:19] between the national, as you said, the [49:21] national religious sector [49:24] and and the Haredi sector. There's a [49:27] real real split there, and those [49:30] differences used to be kind of more [49:32] tapered over, not really discussed, but [49:35] after October 7th and with the war in [49:37] Gaza, with a huge conscription rate, and [49:39] as you say, also the kind of [49:41] disproportionate casualty [49:44] numbers of the the national religious [49:46] sector, there's a huge split there and [49:50] real animosity between the even the the [49:52] kind of the [49:54] the leaders of those camps, and yet [49:55] they're sitting in the same coalition or [49:57] had been until just now. And so, I don't [50:00] know I don't know how Netanyahu will be [50:02] able I mean, even if he had his [50:04] coalition, even if he were able to kind [50:06] of swear in another government that is [50:08] the same, at some point those tensions [50:11] will will start boiling up. [50:14] >> On the other hand, [50:16] for you have certainly a lot of [50:18] ideological differences in the [50:20] opposition camp. If they were to pull it [50:23] together, you saw last time that Naftali [50:26] Bennett and Yair Lapid when they did sit [50:28] with Ra'am, it didn't last long [50:30] for some of that reason. [50:32] I'm also wondering, you know, when it [50:34] comes to what the Israeli public wants, [50:37] when it it comes to some of the issues [50:39] that I think around the world people are [50:41] looking to Israel [50:43] most intently on Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, [50:47] how much of a difference is there if [50:48] Gadi Eisenkot becomes the head of the [50:52] Israeli government and in terms of what [50:54] the world would see from Israel in terms [50:56] of what the Israeli public would want to [50:58] see their, you know, his policies be on [51:01] those topics. [51:03] >> I think [51:04] it will make a big difference. Um I'm [51:06] not what I know some people in Israel [51:08] say or outside of Israel say that oh, [51:11] it's all the same. They're all the same [51:13] and there there's no difference between [51:15] a Netanyahu government or an Eisenkot [51:17] government or whatever. Everything will [51:19] continue. The Gaza will be will be, you [51:21] know, the the the policy in Gaza will be [51:23] as it is. The policy in the West Bank [51:25] will be as it is. I actually don't think [51:27] that's true. Um for one thing, just the [51:30] kind of very immediate reaction [51:33] uh would be that Smotrich, who is the [51:36] leader of the far right um [51:38] um [51:39] Zionist [51:41] Zionist the [51:42] the National Religious um Party, he um [51:46] he is a finance minister, but he's also [51:48] in charge of running the West Bank, the [51:51] civil administration. So, that's in fact [51:53] the sort of the day-to-day [51:56] running the lives of the the you know, [51:59] whatever is happening in the West Bank. [52:01] And he will be out, you know, with an [52:03] Eisenkot in charge, Smotrich will no [52:05] longer have that power. And so, [52:08] immediately you will see a change there. [52:11] Um and I think right now [52:13] um Jewish settlers living there, they're [52:16] acting with a sense of impunity that [52:18] nothing they will do will cause any kind [52:21] of reaction from the government or from [52:23] the military. The military in fact is [52:26] always kind of standing by a little bit [52:27] helpless because it's not getting the [52:29] orders um to to really do anything [52:32] about the situation and the violence [52:34] that that is brewing there. [52:36] And so, I think that in the West Bank [52:38] there will be a change. And then in [52:40] terms of just I think that the face that [52:43] Israel puts forward to the world, there [52:45] will be a change. I think Eisenkot from [52:47] every you know, everything I've I've [52:49] I've um reported about him and spoken [52:52] to, you know, people close to him and [52:55] and also leaders who who have kind of [52:57] dealt with him including Netanyahu, um [53:00] the sense is that he is a likable [53:02] person, you know, they all talk about [53:03] his honesty. He's [53:05] he's sort of straightforwardness, his [53:07] lack of charisma, which is, you know, a [53:09] weakness but also in a way maybe a [53:11] benefit, you know, there's something [53:14] he's a military man, you know, he's a [53:16] former IDF chief. He lost his son in the [53:18] Gaza war. He lost two nephews in the [53:21] Gaza war. This is a man who paid the [53:23] ultimate price and I think [53:26] you know, that in itself is a symbol, [53:29] you know, of what Israel post October [53:31] 7th [53:32] could look like [53:34] were he given that chance. And and if he [53:37] brought in the Arab parties, do you [53:38] think that that would also change, you [53:41] know, Israel's image, you know, it would [53:43] sort of poke a hole in the apartheid [53:45] argument and [53:47] you think that that that could be [53:48] transformative or do you feel that the [53:50] the image that that Israel's critics [53:52] have is going to be enduring? I think [53:56] so. [53:57] It's it's funny. I always feel kind of [53:59] uncomfortable talking about Israel [54:00] critics outside because I feel like you [54:01] know about this more way more than I. [54:03] All I can all I can talk about is like [54:06] Israeli society and the way it will sort [54:09] of pass or play here. I don't know. I [54:11] think it will be it has to be seen as [54:13] transformative abroad, you know, outside [54:16] of Israel because it will be. I mean, [54:18] just as a fact, it will be [54:20] transformative and if that is the face [54:22] of Israel puts forward after everything [54:24] it's been through, I think it sends a [54:26] very loud message of kind of where, you [54:29] know, what Israel is seeking. [54:32] Um [54:33] and [54:34] I think there there actually from so I I [54:37] feel more comfortable talking about [54:39] Israelis and Israeli society but but but [54:41] from conversation recently from [54:43] conversations I was having, it's my [54:46] sense that outside of Israel many people [54:49] feel as if Israelis have become like [54:52] overnight these sort of killing machines [54:55] going out and it's just the sense of [54:58] what is happening here is really is is [55:02] so start is to seem almost I mean, kind [55:05] of dehumanized in a way and and [55:08] um [55:09] you know, and not understanding that the [55:11] that the initial reaction to go into [55:13] Gaza or or strike Hamas was as a [55:16] response to the you know, to the Hamas [55:19] attacks of on October 7th to kind of you [55:22] know, change that situation to flip it [55:24] on its head is just to kind of hear that [55:27] is is really something to confront. Um [55:31] but I think I think an Eisenkot [55:34] government will send a message to [55:36] Israelis as well that you know, that [55:38] that they're under Netanyahu Israeli [55:40] society has become extremely polarized. [55:43] He's not the only person responsible [55:45] responsible for that but but he's the he [55:48] has a lot to do with it. And if the [55:50] temperatures can be brought down not [55:52] only towards the kind of outside you [55:54] know, Israel facing outside but also [55:55] within um that would be huge. [56:01] >> It would be. Um thank you so so much for [56:04] joining us and sharing all of your [56:06] insight and experience and um hope that [56:09] everyone will be reading your book to [56:12] get more of um the richness and the [56:15] detail and the the look at the lives of [56:18] of a wide swath of really fascinating [56:21] Israeli personalities. Um so thank you [56:23] for joining us um thank you to everyone [56:26] who attended and um thank you also to [56:29] our partner UJA Federation of New York [56:32] um for working uh with us to put on this [56:34] folio series. Um it's been a wonderful [56:36] evening and look forward to uh the next [56:39] conversation. [56:40] >> Thank you Galit. Thank you so much and [56:42] thank you everyone.
