Transcript [00:00] More than 50 years ago, American and [00:02] Israeli diplomats led the fight against [00:04] a Soviet anti-semitic propaganda [00:06] campaign, smearing Zionism as racism. [00:09] But nowadays, the term, as well as the [00:12] state of Israel, is under siege from a [00:13] new generation of Jew haters who pose as [00:16] advocates for human rights and opponents [00:19] of racism. Should we discard it as [00:22] irrelevant eight decades after it [00:24] succeeded in recreating Jewish [00:26] sovereignty in the land of Israel? or is [00:28] the proper answer to anti-ionism is for [00:31] [music] its supporters to embrace it all [00:33] the more closely. Today on Think Twice, [00:36] we discuss the battle over Zionism with [00:38] one of its greatest contemporary [00:39] historians, as well as discussing what [00:42] the current Israeli election campaign [00:44] and the dilemmas of diaspora jewelry [00:47] tell us about the future of the Jewish [00:49] people. [01:10] Hello and welcome to Think Twice. The [01:13] history of the Jews as well as that of [01:15] Zionism, their national liberation [01:17] movement, is replete with chapters that [01:19] speak of bitter internal struggles. Even [01:22] as outside forces emboldened by [01:24] anti-semitism besieged and embattled [01:26] Jewish people today those divisions are [01:29] very much on display not only in the [01:31] state of Israel as it heads towards an [01:33] election later this month. American Jews [01:36] are similarly divided as they try to [01:38] come to terms with a Democratic party [01:40] that seems to have been captured by [01:42] anti-semmites as well as by a Republican [01:45] party that may well be led in two years [01:47] by a man who refuses to disassociate [01:49] himself from an open anti-semite and [01:51] Hitler sympathizer like Tucker Carlson [01:55] to discuss what's happening in Israel [01:57] and America as well as the war against [01:59] Zionism. We're very pleased to have back [02:01] with us today one of the leading [02:03] historians of Zionism as well as of [02:05] American politics. Gil Troy is a senior [02:08] fellow at the Jewish People and Policy [02:10] Institute and a distinguished scholar in [02:12] North American history and Miguel [02:14] University currently living in [02:16] Jerusalem. He's an award-winning [02:18] American presidential historian and the [02:20] author and editor of numerous books [02:23] including the 2012 Moahan's Moment, [02:26] America's fight against Zionism Against [02:28] Racism, the 2019 The Zionist Idea, [02:31] Visions for the Jewish Homeland, the [02:33] 2023 The Essential Guide to October 7th [02:36] and its Aftermath, and the 2024 Resist [02:40] the Academic Inifat Letters to My [02:43] Students on Defending the Zionist Dream [02:45] and the recently published lished the [02:47] essential guide to Zionism, anti-ionism, [02:50] anti-semitism, and Jew hatred. Gil Troy, [02:53] welcome back to Think Twice. [02:55] >> Always good to visit you. [02:56] >> Well, Gil, thanks so much for taking the [02:58] time to join us today. I want to start [03:00] by asking you about something you wrote [03:02] about nearly 15 years ago in your book [03:04] about Daniel Moyahan's fight against the [03:06] Soviet Union Zionism is racism campaign [03:09] at the UN in 75. As a historian of [03:12] Zionism, I guess the question is how did [03:15] Soviet era propaganda from half a [03:18] century ago become mainstream discourse [03:21] after October 7th? It's stunning. And we [03:25] should point out that we're now marking [03:27] the three years since October 7th. And [03:29] we saw on people call it October 8th, [03:33] not only the horrors of October 7th, but [03:35] the horrors that throughout the [03:36] democratic world, but not only in the [03:38] democratic world, but in the holy of [03:39] holies of the democratic world, the [03:41] universities, Ruters, Colombia, UCLA, [03:44] McGill, Harvard, my two homes, they [03:48] celebrated these degradations, these [03:50] perversions. What's going on? And I'm [03:53] actually working on an update of the [03:54] Mohan's moment book because the the book [03:57] came out in 2013. And at that time [04:00] anti-sionism was marginal because of [04:03] Daniel Patrick Moyahan and liberalism [04:05] and conservatism and Americanism and [04:08] fundamental American ideals of decency [04:10] and democracy and fairness that said [04:12] there are clear red lines and Zionism is [04:15] simply a movement of Jewish national [04:17] liberation and liberal democratic [04:19] nationalism like America different [04:21] version of Americanism and how can we be [04:24] against it and the fact that Daniel [04:27] Patrick Moyahan's New York of 7 of 1976 [04:31] is now Mamani's New York of 2026 is [04:34] devastating. And if I had one sentence [04:38] to give, it would be all about [04:40] anti-racism. [04:42] The genius and that goes back to the [04:44] Zionism is racism resolution. But the [04:46] perverse genius of the Soviet Union and [04:48] the Palestinian National Movement back [04:50] then to wrap Zionism and racism together [04:56] was actually much more at the time they [04:58] were following their own agendas about [05:00] trying to connect to liberation [05:01] movements and things like that. But look [05:03] at it's 1976. It coincides with the [05:06] civil rights movement. But more than [05:08] that, it coincides once we get into the [05:10] 70s, the 80s, the 90s with a derailing [05:14] of the civil rights movement from Martin [05:16] Luther King's original vision of [05:18] equality and of integration and of us [05:22] being colorblind to a kind of politics [05:25] of what they call quote unquote [05:27] anti-racism. And once anti-racism and [05:30] anti and anti-ionism became intertwined, [05:33] you jump ahead to let's say 2014 [05:36] Ferguson or 2020 George Floyd and the [05:40] important fight against some of the [05:42] evils in America is now linked to the [05:45] Palestinian issue. And so it was [05:47] politically incorrect to say all lives [05:50] matter, but somehow or other black lives [05:53] matter allowed you to say Palestinian [05:56] lives matter. And it was the racializing [05:58] of the conflict, the blackening of the [06:00] Palestinian national movement. And the [06:03] fight between Israel and the [06:05] Palestinians as Jews and Palestinians is [06:07] not a racial fight. It's a there are [06:09] dark-kinned Palestinians and [06:10] light-skinned Israelis and vice versa. [06:12] It's a nationalist fight. And the degree [06:14] to which was racialized, which had to do [06:16] with trying to Nazify Israel and and [06:19] Zionism, ultimately helped undermine [06:22] Israel's standing and Jew standing in [06:24] the United States of America. a massive [06:27] tragedy. [06:27] >> Thanks for tuning in to Think Twice. [06:30] Whether you're listening to us on any of [06:32] the podcast platforms [music] or [06:33] watching us live on Facebook or X or on [06:36] the JNS YouTube channel, please like and [06:39] or subscribe to JNS. Click on the bell [06:41] for notifications and give us good [06:43] reviews. Also, in addition to [music] [06:45] think twice, there is a Jonathan Tobin [06:47] Daily podcast where I share more news [06:49] and analysis with you about the most [06:51] significant issues we're facing today. [06:54] You can find the Daily Show under [06:56] Jonathan Tobin Daily on the JNS channel [06:59] wherever you get your podcasts. And now [07:02] back to today's program. Yeah, I I think [07:05] that sums it up. Um it's something I [07:07] think we've both written about, but [07:09] anti-ionism is certainly very [07:11] fashionable right now. It's fashionable [07:13] in the pages of the New York Times, [07:15] which, you know, sort of if you go back [07:18] 50 years was editorializing against [07:20] Soviet propaganda. now and it embraces [07:23] it. It's also popular among a small [07:25] minority of Jews who hate Israel. Um [07:28] it's possible to dismiss them um to say [07:32] they don't represent the views of the [07:33] majority and they don't. But I think it [07:36] would also be a mistake to underestimate [07:38] the damage these as a Jew Jews uh do in [07:42] promoting what is an anti-semitic effort [07:44] to demonize and smear Israel, the Jewish [07:47] state, Jews in general. You recently [07:49] wrote a piece about the Jewish [07:51] propensity for civil war. Is it a [07:54] natural thing for Jews to be at war with [07:56] each other for one reason or another? [07:58] Whether in Israel over judicial reform, [08:00] the heratim or leftright arguments about [08:02] everything else. What is it about the [08:04] Jews that lends themsel lends itself to [08:07] this kind of thing? [08:08] >> Well, there's an upside and a downside. [08:10] Of course, the Talmud talks about ml, [08:12] about division, about disagreement. And [08:15] the Talmud ultimately says that while we [08:17] have to have a big broad open tent, [08:20] tents by definition also have [08:22] boundaries. And so the Talmud leans into [08:25] the Jewish propensity to fight and says, [08:27] "Okay, but you do it within limits and [08:29] you do it with solidarity. You do it [08:31] with mutual respect and you do it with a [08:32] spirit of learning from one another." [08:34] Unfortunately, and I think you're [08:35] referring to an article that I wrote [08:37] which I was reviewing almost Atel's very [08:38] important book looking over Jewish [08:40] history and especially biblical history [08:42] and looking over the series of civil [08:44] wars. There also have been too many Jews [08:46] throughout history who didn't respect [08:48] the boundaries. And I think that's what [08:50] we're talking about when we talk about [08:51] the small, you're right, they're very [08:52] small percentage and in public opinion [08:54] polls. They're consistently 8 to 10% of [08:57] American Jews are anti-Zionist, [09:00] >> but they're very visible. They're very [09:01] loud. But they punch way above their [09:04] weight for two reasons. One, because [09:08] they have the echo chamber of the New [09:10] York Times, of Tik Tok, of mainstream [09:14] media, which loves the unjew as I call [09:17] them, which loves the Jew. And I, this [09:19] is an article that I wrote in 2021 with [09:20] Natan Shansky. And what is the unjew? [09:23] We're not talking about some college [09:24] student who occasionally criticizes [09:25] Israel. We're talking about rabbis. And [09:29] that's the second part. They not only [09:31] have these the the the the echo chamber [09:33] of the New York Times, but it's rabbis. [09:35] It's Jewish studies professors. It's the [09:36] elite of the leap on the Jewish dole on [09:39] the Jewish payroll who are undoing [09:43] that's why we called them unjews undoing [09:45] the core consensus since the Holocaust [09:47] and since 1948 reinforced in 1967 [09:51] linking Israel Jewish identity Zionism [09:55] the Jewish people as one. And so the [09:57] fact that you have this elite and the [09:59] fact that you have certain and I'm very [10:01] careful in my words certain rabbitical [10:04] seminaries that will give a smika a [10:07] rabbitical branding if you will [10:09] rabbitical kosher certificate to Jews [10:13] who say that they're anti-ionist is [10:16] stunning. And those seminaries say oh [10:20] well we don't believe in litmus tests [10:21] that's intellectually unfair. I go, [10:23] "Well, you have all kinds of unspoken [10:25] litmus tests. You're not going to give a [10:26] racist a rabbitical degree, and you [10:29] shouldn't, a sexist, a homophobe, a [10:32] homophobe." And yet, when it comes to [10:33] Zionism, all of a sudden, you have this [10:35] purity that shows that actually that [10:37] you're not putting Zionism up there as [10:39] your core ideology. And I look on the [10:40] websites of the movements and I look at [10:43] the websites of the seminaries, the [10:45] reformed seminary, the the the [10:48] conservative seminary, and certainly the [10:50] Orthodox seminaries and their movements [10:52] all say they're Zionist. As an academic, [10:54] I have no problem giving an anti-ionist [10:57] an A, a PhD if they make intelligent, [11:00] thoughtful arguments because that's my [11:01] job as an academic. But a rabbitical [11:03] institution, a Jewish organization has [11:06] to have certain red lines and has to [11:07] have certain bottom lines. And that's [11:09] what's terrifying about what's going on [11:10] right now. The unjews are taking over [11:13] the asylum. [11:14] >> Yeah. Um let's take a broader look at [11:18] this spread of anti-ionism. It's, you [11:21] know, we've seen um Europe turning on [11:24] Israel as governments that I think are [11:26] enthralled to anti-ionist and [11:28] anti-semitic voters seek to sanction [11:30] Israel. uh how much is that impacting [11:33] Israelis um who may be more more worried [11:36] about fighting war for survival than an [11:38] information war on social media or [11:41] foreign policy. But um is this you know [11:44] is this something that Israelis are are [11:46] are concerned about as their national [11:50] movement of liberation becomes demonized [11:53] in this fashion? First of all, I think [11:55] in many ways Israelis still haven't [11:58] processed, like most American Jews, [11:59] haven't processed the the great betrayal [12:01] of October 8th, as I'm calling it. I [12:04] call it actually the triple double [12:05] cross. Those feminists, and again, I [12:07] don't say the feminists are all [12:08] feminists, but those feminists who are [12:09] silent in the face of the most [12:14] self-promoted, [12:15] widely broadcast act of mass rape in [12:18] history because they did, they filmed it [12:20] on their GoPros and spread it out in [12:22] real time. The fact that they could be [12:23] silent showed as one London woman [12:26] claimed, "It's a me too unless you're a [12:28] Jew." And it's the triple double cross [12:30] because they betrayed the Jews. They [12:31] betrayed liberal ideals and they also [12:34] betrayed themselves, their core ideals. [12:37] So, Israelis still haven't fully [12:39] processed that. Just like, as I say, [12:40] America, American Jews haven't processed [12:42] it. Let's start with the most important [12:44] thing. It is far more important for [12:46] Israel to win on the battlefields than [12:48] to win in the public relation halls and [12:51] to win in the diplomatic halls and to [12:53] win even American Jewish hearts. And I'm [12:55] sorry to say what we've seen over the [12:56] last three years is that Israel's a [13:00] nochoice war ultimately alienated [13:04] Europeans, Americans, and too many [13:07] American Jews. And so I'd rather have [13:10] the victories that we have, but I also [13:13] think that we have to focus on [13:15] rebuilding and trying to explain that [13:18] first of all, anti-ionism and [13:19] anti-Americanism are intertwined. [13:22] Look at the great rally of 300,000 [13:25] mostly Jews. They should have invited [13:26] more non-Jews, but that's another story. [13:28] 300,000 Jews gathering in November 2023. [13:32] They're waving the Israeli flag and the [13:33] American flag. Who's burning the [13:35] Canadian flag? who's burning the [13:37] American flag, who's burning the British [13:39] flag, who's burning the Australian flag, [13:41] the pro Palestinian anti-ionists. And we [13:44] haven't made that case. So, I think we [13:46] have to be very, very careful about [13:48] saying what's really going on. And so, [13:50] on the one hand, Israelis mostly are [13:52] focusing on, and this is of course a [13:54] difficult week because we're mourning [13:56] the the three years, but I think most [13:58] Israelis also understand that we're far [13:59] safer than we were on October 6th. We [14:02] may have been in a bit of a delusion [14:04] then and we maybe have less delusions [14:07] now but objectively we're much safer. [14:10] However, [14:12] it is in the air. Just last night I had [14:15] this amazing experience. I joined a [14:17] running club for a day a night with of [14:20] Milo Mikim of reserveists who work out [14:24] their issues and their post-t trauma. [14:25] One of them beautifully said, "We we we [14:28] we speak with our eyes and we did an [14:30] hourong really hard uh what they call [14:32] immune uh workout and at the very very [14:34] end we all took a picture and a stranger [14:37] was walking by and so we gave that [14:39] stranger the the iPhone to take a [14:41] picture and one of them said, "Ah, it [14:43] goes to the H." And that kind of Israeli [14:46] humor kind of captures the fact that [14:49] reserveists especially soldiers [14:51] especially are very aware of the fact [14:53] that in Europe in Canada there were [14:56] lists of genociders. [14:58] A Canadian website had a list of 86 [15:01] quote unquote genociders meaning [15:03] Israelis or also Canadian uh by [15:06] citizenship who served honorably in the [15:08] IDF. for the 86 were my kids and we [15:11] turned it into a joke um and we said we [15:13] were proud about it but other people [15:15] would be justifiably nervous. So I think [15:17] it kind of hangs as a cloud and it is [15:20] something that we have to think about [15:21] how we improve our public diplomacy [15:23] without apologetics [15:25] without leaning in to the critique that [15:29] is unfair and without forgetting the [15:32] most important thing is for us to [15:33] survive and to thrive. Yeah, I think [15:36] that's the right priority. [15:39] Let's discuss the vote for the next [15:41] Kesset. Um, yes, you're right. We're [15:43] this week we're morning October 7th, the [15:45] anniversary, but within 3 weeks, [15:48] Israelis will go to the polls. And of [15:50] course, elections are always about [15:51] multiple issues and personalities. But [15:54] which do you think is the theme that [15:55] will determine the outcome on October [15:57] 7th? Who was responsible for October [15:59] 7th? Or who can best secure Israel going [16:02] forward? drafting the curedum. Uh is it [16:04] a referendum on Netanyahu or have his [16:07] opponents fumbles made it as much about [16:10] them and their lack of uh compelling [16:12] visions and diffidence about whether [16:14] they will ally themselves with an Arab [16:16] anti-Zionist party? How is this shaking [16:18] out in your view? [16:19] >> So two framings. First of all, let's [16:21] just pause and say what an amazing thing [16:23] that even with all the crises, even with [16:26] all the threats, Israel's going to the [16:28] polls and it's never happened before. [16:31] So, it probably won't happen. Although, [16:32] I'm a historian. I always talk about [16:33] what happened in the past. Uh, Israelis [16:36] have not questioned election results. [16:38] There's a legitimacy, there's a respect, [16:41] there's a power to the electoral ballot [16:43] box. And by the way, it's very [16:44] oldfashioned. You walk in and you're [16:46] back in the 1950s. They have a ballot [16:48] box and they have this kind of menu of [16:51] different pieces of paper and you drop [16:53] the piece of paper in the ballot box and [16:55] then it's counted. It's kind of [16:56] delightfully [16:57] >> Yeah. I I think it's important to point [16:58] out that in you know I think most [17:01] American viewers probably don't know [17:03] this but Israel doesn't allow for [17:05] absentee voting. [17:07] >> Correct. [17:07] >> Except for soldiers or diplomats. You [17:10] have to actually you know it has it's [17:12] almost like 19th century America. You [17:15] have to show up in person. It's like [17:17] everything except voting you know saying [17:19] your vote in public. But it is a very [17:22] old-fashioned system. um and yet they do [17:25] get their results within a day [17:26] >> and it has a legitimacy which is so [17:28] important. So that's the first point to [17:30] make. The second point is that right [17:32] around September 1st the conversation [17:35] changed and all of a sudden I would say [17:38] mostly through the spring and the summer [17:40] the conversation was about the [17:42] opposition. Gotti Eisenhot gaining [17:44] momentum, Bett sinking, Eisenhot going [17:48] uh further and further as and [17:50] consolidating the opposition and [17:51] Netanyahu panicking. [17:54] In the last two weeks, the conversation [17:56] has shifted to deadlock to a narrowing [18:00] of the of the polls, a narrowing of the [18:01] gap. And I even read today some [18:03] speculation that oh, maybe what we [18:05] really need is some kind of push me pull [18:09] you joint government. uh where Eisenhad [18:12] and Netanyahu work together and then you [18:14] can get rid of the karadim the [18:15] ultraorththodox you could get rid of the [18:17] extremists Benvir on the right and the [18:19] extremists to many people Jerolan on the [18:22] left I'm just floating that not as a as [18:24] a as a prediction but it just shows that [18:27] kind of speculation wasn't in the air a [18:29] month ago and we know as we know in [18:32] America that uh polls these days are [18:34] much more unreliable uh because of cell [18:37] phones and because people sometimes lie [18:38] and people also have these last minute [18:41] uh shifts. We know especially in Israel [18:43] in the volatile Middle East. I mean last [18:45] week we averted [18:48] mind-blowing tragedy due to the heroism [18:50] of Israelis. And by the way, it was the [18:53] same kind of heroism that saved the [18:54] country on October 7th, right? That [18:56] instinct to get involved, not to run [18:57] away. that ability to know what to do [19:01] and and to have the either October 7th [19:03] the individual firepower sometimes and [19:05] to have the skills with your hands and [19:07] the clarity of mind to save the country [19:09] to save the plate any kind of outside uh [19:15] outside uh intervention a disaster or [19:19] let's say let's be positive if Iran [19:21] falls two weeks from now the [19:22] conversation changes I'm not predicting [19:24] any of this but I'm just saying that the [19:25] volatility is also something we have to [19:27] think I I think everybody watching this [19:29] will say holi but you know okay right [19:31] [laughter] [19:32] >> I'm just I'm I'm saying that that we [19:33] should just be aware that [19:34] >> well there you know black swan events [19:37] >> right can can but especially in Israel [19:39] >> what we call in America October [19:40] surprises and I guess September [19:42] surprises in Israel and during an [19:44] October election but [19:46] >> right that in that in Israel but in [19:47] Israel because of the volatility of the [19:48] situation is that much more palpable and [19:50] Netanyah kind of warning about potential [19:52] terrorist attacks and and and potential [19:54] attempts by our outside enemies to [19:57] manipulate the elections. [19:59] >> Yeah. You know, you are a presidential [20:01] historian in terms of American history. [20:03] Apply this a little bit to, you know, [20:06] what we're seeing in Israel. Um, [20:08] obviously Netanyahu, he's been doing [20:10] this a very long time. I I keep pointing [20:12] out to people that he became the head of [20:14] the Likood for the first time 33 years [20:16] ago [20:16] >> when I had hair [20:18] [laughter] when I was a lot when we were [20:20] both a lot younger. Um, you know, he was [20:24] a lot younger, too. Um, Eisenhot is the [20:29] latest in a, you know, a long line of [20:32] former generals and specifically IDF [20:35] chiefs of staff who have attempted to [20:37] parachute into politics. Um, and had, [20:41] you know, it's not clear whether he's [20:44] going to be something different than all [20:47] of the ones who have preceded him. You [20:49] know, with the exception of maybe [20:50] somebody like Chiron, most of failed. [20:53] How is Eisenot doing when up against [20:56] such a veteran politician who's like [20:58] he's he's this is not his first rodeo. [21:01] He's won a lot of elections. Um doing a [21:04] lot of the same things he's trying to do [21:05] now. So Eisenka, as I said, had a good [21:08] run in the spring and summer. But his [21:10] sphinx strategy, I recently wrote works [21:12] in Egypt more than in Israel. That yet [21:15] at the end of the day, um Israelis want [21:17] to know what's happening and they and [21:19] they want a vision. And uh so far the [21:22] campaign has been about Netanyahu's [21:25] actions and pluses and minuses and [21:29] Eisenkott's persona and indeed Azenat [21:33] has a heartbreaking story of having lost [21:35] a son and two nephews on October in in [21:37] in the wars of October 7th. He uh has a [21:40] beautiful story of coming from a lot [21:42] with a Moroccan background. But at the [21:44] end of the day, you have to win an [21:46] election. you can't just absorb the [21:49] anti-Netanyahu vote. And I think that's [21:52] that's kind of caught up with him and [21:53] that's part of the reason I think why [21:54] the the race is narrowing. You earlier [21:56] asked about October 7th and I think that [21:58] is a big issue. One of the things that's [22:00] heartbreaking to me is that October 7th [22:03] and all the failures and let's be [22:04] honest, it was a systemic failure. Uh, [22:07] it was a failure that involved the army, [22:09] including Eisenkott's army when he was [22:11] chief of staff, because I learned from [22:13] him on the radio about the high-tech [22:15] army and about the fancy fence that was [22:17] going to protect us from Gaza. It's BB's [22:19] failure. But everybody who talks about [22:21] BB and Hamas and all the money going uh [22:24] to from Qatar, I I did an article about [22:27] a year and a half ago looking at the [22:29] American diplomatic establishment right [22:31] and left, the Jewish establishment right [22:33] and left, the Israeli establishment [22:35] right and left, the European [22:36] establishment right and left. All of [22:38] them said the same thing. It wasn't just [22:39] BB. And for this kind of disaster to [22:43] happen, all players have to be asleep at [22:45] the switch. And that's what happened. [22:47] And so to me it's unfortunate that it's [22:50] being so politicized. What needs to [22:52] happen and this is a criticism of [22:53] Netanyahu was there should have been a [22:55] commission of inquiry almost from the [22:56] start in the same way after October 73 [22:59] in the Yamipur war within months there [23:01] was a commission because memories get [23:04] blurry documents get lost coverups occur [23:09] sloppiness enters and we need to learn [23:11] we need to learn what happened and so [23:13] it's heartbreaking that October 7th is [23:15] being used as a political football or we [23:18] should say in Israel political soccer [23:19] ball although in Israel football soccer, [23:22] >> right? as opposed to saying what are the [23:24] lessons we're going to learn and um but [23:27] I think it's also very important for all [23:29] the listeners to realize that there are [23:31] deep deep divisions in this country but [23:33] if I say Eisenat [23:36] Bennett Lieberman Netanyahu and even [23:40] laid and g all of them more or less [23:45] believe in the justice of this war of [23:48] the need to continue fighting and the [23:50] fight sometimes it's actually [23:51] interesting if you track the the [23:52] internal fights each one of them at [23:55] different times has been more to use the [23:56] gross term rightwing or leftwing than [23:58] the other. In other words, each of them [24:00] at different points has was harder on [24:02] the hostages, softer on the hostages, [24:03] more willing to surrender, less willing [24:04] to surrender. So what's important for [24:07] outsiders to recognize is that no matter [24:09] who was elected prime minister on [24:10] October 27th, the need to defend [24:14] Israel's borders, the need to win this [24:16] sevenfront war will continue. And [24:19] whoever of those men that I've [24:21] mentioned, it's all men are are wins [24:24] will be committed to the security [24:26] doctrine that needs to be improved and [24:29] that needs to be advanced and the and [24:31] the security agenda that needs to be [24:33] improved and needs to be advanced. [24:34] >> Yeah, I think that's an important point. [24:36] Um I think there is a for the most part [24:39] a broad consensus in Israel on security [24:42] issues [24:44] embracing both Netanyahu and you know [24:47] most of his opponents most of his main [24:49] opponents about the need to fight the [24:52] war to defend Israel to fight the [24:54] sevenfront war against Iran and its [24:56] proxies. At the same time, you know, the [24:59] reason it seems to me that there hasn't [25:01] been a commission other than you want to [25:03] just blame it on on Netanyahu is that I [25:06] don't think either side, as much as [25:08] there's this consensus, it's also kind [25:11] of a bifurcated um society um as we saw [25:15] during the the judicial reform battles [25:18] in which I don't think either political [25:21] camp would trust a commission that it [25:24] doesn't control. um and you know [25:26] wouldn't wouldn't really accept [25:28] anything. You know, we've seen a lot of [25:29] this in the United States in the last [25:32] decade. Um how do we how do we make [25:35] sense of this, you know, real, you know, [25:38] kind of political civil war um which [25:41] plays out in a lot of different ways [25:43] other than on security issues and um and [25:47] this and the struggle for power [25:50] >> in the world. According to me, the weeks [25:52] after October 7th, once things finally [25:54] stabilized, would have been also [25:57] occupied with every major figure who had [26:02] led Israel on a security dimension, [26:04] intelligence dimension, political [26:05] dimension in the previous three, four, [26:07] five years at least being deposed and at [26:10] least preserving their memory because [26:12] again, as a historian, I know that [26:14] memories shift and and just getting [26:16] their fresh take even if there wasn't [26:18] going to be formal findings, but we [26:20] needed the information and that's a loss [26:21] and we can't turn back the clock. Uh [26:25] look, the fantasy about this election [26:27] and it's a fantasy is that somehow or [26:29] other the reset button will be pressed [26:32] and whomever emerges through this [26:35] legitimate democratic process will be [26:37] able to lead the country out of its [26:39] division just like Donald Trump led [26:42] America out of its division in 2016. Oh [26:44] no. Or Biden in 2020. Oh no. Or you know [26:47] >> and so on. Yeah. fantasies and reality [26:50] often clash. The unfortunate fact is [26:53] that on certain key issues, the judicial [26:56] reform continues to be an issue. Uh the [27:00] as you mentioned the ultraorththodox [27:01] draft continues to be an issue. Although [27:03] what's interesting there is that there [27:04] actually is a Zionist consensus on that. [27:06] Mostly Kikin and most of the anti-BB [27:09] camp believe in getting more of a draft [27:12] and and and more of a carrying of the [27:14] burden from the ultraorththodox. But on [27:16] some of these issues and and just the [27:19] the tribal nature of the society, the [27:23] divisions will continue. On the other [27:25] hand, the reason why I'm sometimes far [27:27] more optimistic about what's going on in [27:28] Israel than the United States of America [27:30] is we haven't had in Israel what they [27:34] called in the early 2000s even the big [27:36] sword. Israel is a very small country. [27:39] Israel is ultimately a very integrated [27:40] country. Israeli Jews live on top of one [27:42] another and they show up to each other's [27:46] weddings. I was at a wedding at the [27:48] height of the judicial reform, [27:49] remarkable wedding. And without getting [27:52] to names, two of the key architects of [27:55] the judicial reform were there on the [27:58] groom side because he was from Ephra. [28:01] And two or three of the most extreme [28:04] borderline what we would call in America [28:06] communist members of the Israeli Knesset [28:09] and various city councils were at the [28:11] wedding from the Tel Avivi bridide and [28:15] everybody had got along. That doesn't [28:17] happen in America. Almost every wedding [28:19] I go to there's a table of karadium of [28:21] ultraorththodox. You can say oh why they [28:23] separate separat separatis separatist [28:25] but on the other hand they show up. So [28:28] there's a certain kind of social [28:32] senus [28:33] that keep things together. Um, everybody [28:37] stands for the sirens, the heartbreaking [28:40] sirens of Memorial Day and the happy [28:42] sirens of Yamas Mu. Everybody, you know, [28:45] 80% of Israeli Jews uh participate in [28:49] Russia sha ceremonies of some for form, [28:51] usually a dinner at least. uh 80% to 85% [28:55] have uh Passover seder and fascinating [28:58] statistic 63% stay for the second half. [29:01] So there is a kind of cultural unity, a [29:04] common language that keeps Israelis with [29:07] one another despite the political [29:09] division. And of course, let's also be [29:11] honest and it goes back to what I was [29:13] experiencing with my uh new reserveist [29:15] friends last night. when you have such [29:17] an enemy or you unfortunately you have [29:19] so many enemies on so many fronts [29:21] including what we started with we call [29:22] the eighth front of the anti-ionists and [29:24] the haters that also tends to unify and [29:26] give you a kind of clarity about who you [29:29] are and what you need to do. [29:31] >> Yeah. I I want to drill down a little [29:32] bit more about you know in sort of the [29:34] political bifurcation even as Israeli [29:36] society does as you say hold together [29:40] for the most part um you know it's very [29:43] hard you know we're used to certainly in [29:46] in American political contest [29:48] distrusting the polls but in Israel you [29:52] know the polls seem as bifurcated as as [29:55] you know some of some of the dialogue um [29:57] you know the the polls of sort of the [29:59] liberal stations [30:01] have one set of results. The one sort of [30:05] national religious uh station which has [30:08] a poll channel 14 has a completely [30:11] different right right now. Um you know [30:13] the I think channel 11, 12 and 13 polls [30:16] which are considered the more liberal, [30:18] the more anti-Netanyahu ones are showing [30:20] a stalemate. Channel 14 is showing [30:23] Netanyahu winning. Um, you know, [30:25] obviously each on both sides dismiss the [30:28] other, although I guess the scary [30:30] thought for the anti- Netanyahu um, you [30:33] know, coalition is that Channel 14's [30:35] polls were were closer to the mark in [30:37] 2022 than than the others. How do you [30:40] read that and how do you make sense of [30:42] that? [30:43] >> And this is the first week that the gap [30:45] was so great that the Channel 14 polls [30:47] really showed him I think it's 63, you [30:48] know, [30:49] >> or 64, I think. I just checked it. [30:51] >> 64, right? and and and the and the um [30:54] and the other polls didn't. Look, this [30:57] is a much bigger issue. And to sound [30:58] like an academic for a minute, uh the [31:01] fact that we don't have shared truths [31:04] and we don't have shared information and [31:07] everybody's in their own epistemological [31:09] bubble is toxic to democracy. Well, we [31:13] talk about this a lot in America. You've [31:15] been explaining to us that it's not [31:17] quite as bad in Israel, but the polls [31:19] kind of give me pause, [31:21] >> right? So I'm saying is socially and [31:24] culturally there are more connections [31:26] but epistemologically if you will and [31:28] certainly when it comes to political [31:30] there are these tribal truths and the [31:32] these tribal divisions and anyone who [31:34] thinks and these are the polls whatever [31:36] whatever variation there is in the polls [31:37] the polls definitely show that there are [31:39] two main camps in the Zionist camp in [31:44] under the you know broader Zionist [31:45] umbrella and one of the problems of [31:47] course is we also talk when we talk [31:49] about the electoral math where there are [31:50] 120 [31:51] members of the Knesset and you need 61 [31:53] for even just like a bare majority, [31:56] you start counting without the [31:59] ultraorththodox parties if you're [32:00] talking about the Zionist camp and you [32:02] start counting without the Arab parties. [32:04] And so the math of getting to 61 becomes [32:08] that much more difficult. And that's why [32:10] historically left and right Labor Party [32:14] and Leud has traditionally brought in [32:16] the ultraorththodox and paid off the [32:18] ultraorththodox in order to boom get [32:20] over their line. [32:22] So regardless, anyone who expects that [32:24] on October 28th there's going to be some [32:27] kind of kumbaya moment and everybody's [32:30] going to put their angers and their [32:31] divisions aside is dreaming in [32:33] Technicolor. Uh so the the the the [32:36] divisions which are which are the [32:39] political divisions um and many much of [32:42] it is around Netanyahu who by the way if [32:44] we go back in earlier incarnations as [32:47] you point out he's been around for a [32:48] long time but you know back in the 1980s [32:50] the New York Times used to write about [32:52] what a wonderful speech maker he was and [32:54] how eloquent he was and how elegant he [32:56] was. They don't write about that now so [32:57] much. um he he had parts of his [33:01] personality which were more moderate and [33:04] of his political personality and much [33:06] more about unifying. Unfortunately, the [33:09] latest iteration of Netanyahu has been [33:11] as a divider and he's often tried to [33:14] pour salt on some of the wounds of [33:16] Israeli society. And my hope, not my [33:18] prediction, but my hope would be that [33:20] whomever wins or emerges as the battered [33:23] coalition leader um next time around [33:26] will say, "You know what? We saw on [33:28] October 6th, we were a deeply divided [33:30] country. It weakened us. It telegraphed [33:33] weakness. And we cannot cannot cannot [33:35] return to the divisions of October 6th. [33:38] And that has to be one of the lessons of [33:39] October 7th. And that hopefully will be [33:42] one of the takeaways. Again, not a [33:43] prediction, but a hope uh after October [33:45] 27th. We need leaders who understand, as [33:48] Ronald Reagan did. He used to say when [33:52] conservatives would come to say, "Your [33:53] cabinet is too moderate." and he would [33:55] say, "I'm not the president of the [33:57] Republican Party. I'm not the president [33:59] of the Conservative Party of America. I [34:01] am the president of the United States of [34:02] America." I'm hoping that the next prime [34:04] minister will say I am the prime [34:07] minister of the Israeli people and [34:09] frankly the leader of the Jewish people [34:10] too and one of the leaders of the [34:12] Western world. [34:13] I guess one of the obstacle I mean my [34:16] question is you know is this kind of [34:21] unity or that kind of you know sort of [34:23] uh p pouring oil on the waters rather [34:25] than pouring salt into the wounds um is [34:28] Israel's you know political structure it [34:32] its electoral system capable of [34:34] producing such a result um you know with [34:38] you know the extreme democracy um you [34:41] know it's one of the ironies Israel's [34:42] accused to being, you know, fascist [34:44] tyranny. It's actually the most [34:46] obsessively democratic [34:48] system because of disproportional uh [34:50] representation. You know, is the problem [34:53] structural as much as it is of ideas and [34:56] personalities? [34:57] >> So, it's interesting 5 years ago, 7 [34:59] years ago, certainly 15 years ago when [35:02] America was in a healthier place, we [35:03] used to spend a lot of time talking [35:05] about how the structural problems of [35:07] Israeli democracy that you have so many [35:08] political parties that you only need [35:10] 3.25% 25% of the vote in order to get [35:12] enough of a critical mass to get into [35:13] the um Knesset. The fact that even you [35:16] know when when we throw around these [35:18] numbers um of you know Netanyahu's [35:22] coalition right now which is has a very [35:24] strongly good presence is only 32 of the [35:27] 120 which is what 28% of the vote. So [35:31] there you do have this structural um [35:35] fragmentation, [35:37] but what we've seen in the United States [35:39] of America with two parties is that you [35:42] can still have a kind of polarization [35:45] and a tribalizing of parties that is [35:48] exacerbated by social media, exacerbated [35:51] by the fall of a mainstream media which [35:53] is seen to be the the purveyor and the [35:56] conveyor of truth. And we we know that [35:58] in the 80s and 90s that had its own [36:01] distortions with the three channel [36:03] universe in America of ABC, NBC, CBS. I [36:05] don't want to be overly nostalgic, but [36:07] there also now in America is an extreme [36:10] version. And so we're seeing in Israel [36:12] when you have the combination of the [36:14] structural fragmentation and the the [36:18] tribalization through social media and [36:21] the ticktockization of conversation, [36:25] you have a perfect story. [36:27] >> Yeah. Now a I mean this is something you [36:30] alluded to before. Um, a lot of Israelis [36:33] I speak to, uh, you know, they talk [36:35] about wanting a centrist government in [36:38] which the Likud and elements of the [36:41] Eisenkot coalition would form a [36:43] government, a national government that [36:44] would draft the hered, exclude Ben, [36:49] um, you know, people on the far right, I [36:51] guess, and and the far left as well. But [36:54] is that possible given not only the [36:57] electoral math and it's really hard to [37:00] see how they could get to 61 with such a [37:02] formula but because of the bifurcated [37:05] nature of the electorate that you just u [37:07] alluded to. [37:08] >> So it has to do with the bifurcated [37:11] nature of the electorate. It also has to [37:13] do with personalities. Let's let's [37:16] remember that Israel is ultimately a [37:17] small town. It's 10 million people. But [37:20] when you again factor out and I'm not [37:23] disrespecting them, the ultraorththodox [37:24] because they're I'm just saying they're [37:25] not part of what they call the branch of [37:26] the inner when when you factor out the [37:28] Arabs and you talk about you know sworn [37:32] enemies like BB Netanyahu and and Ahood [37:35] Barack um Barack was BB's commander and [37:38] they fought together. There's a certain [37:40] kind of high school locker room. Oh [37:43] yeah, just read Netanyahu's memoir where [37:45] he's like trashing Barack O over like [37:48] the Sabina rescue where they were both [37:51] playing heroic roles. Exactly. Which is [37:54] from right from the 1970s. Right. Right. [37:58] But they don't let it go. So we have to [38:00] put in the personality dimension uh [38:02] which includes the fact that uh both [38:05] Napali Bennett and Avidor Lieberman who [38:08] are very powerful forces in Israeli [38:10] politics today originally got their [38:12] start working for BB Netanyahu and now [38:15] it's very hard for them to be in the [38:16] same room. [38:17] >> Right? [38:17] >> So you could say ah on the one hand [38:20] they've all worked together and they [38:22] fought together and they have a common [38:23] language. Maybe that can bring them [38:25] together. On the other hand, you'd have [38:26] to to have this kind of left-right [38:30] centrist coalition without the [38:31] extremists. Each of them would have to [38:33] really get over not only personal [38:36] animus, but also promises each has made [38:40] about not sitting with the other one, [38:42] not negotiating with the other one. And [38:45] those are and we can, you know, laugh at [38:46] them on a podcast, but they're actually [38:48] quite real and and and they're very [38:50] powerful forces. [38:51] >> That is a genuine obstacle. And this [38:54] sort of leftright coalition could have [38:56] existed [38:58] years and years ago, but you know they [39:01] these these these kids don't play nicely [39:04] together. In fact, they hate each other. [39:06] And you know, it's it it it's like a [39:09] fact that can't be uh can't be ignored. [39:13] >> You know, Netanyahu over the years has [39:15] developed a reputation, and I'm using my [39:17] words carefully. Some would say it's [39:19] BDS, BB derangement syndrome. Some would [39:21] say it's because of his own actions of [39:23] not being trustworthy. And in fact, most [39:25] recently when he went into a coalition [39:27] and a rotation agreement with Benny [39:29] Gunce, everybody knew except for Benny [39:32] and his party. [39:33] >> Yeah. It was Yeah. Benny Gunce was like [39:34] Charlie Brown with Lucy with the [39:36] football. I mean, like we all saw it [39:38] coming except for him. [39:40] >> Exactly. With a Lucy in the foot. Right. [39:42] So, everybody knew that the rotation was [39:45] going to stop the second it was his [39:47] turn. And indeed, it happened. So that [39:50] would also mean that as soon as uh [39:51] Eisenhot is offered a rotation, he would [39:54] have to get over the gunwarning. [39:58] >> Why would he believe that? Yeah, [39:59] >> he would have to get over the Bennett [40:01] Lieberman animus. He would have to get [40:03] over his repeated promises. He would [40:05] have to get over the power of the ABB, [40:07] anybody but BB camp. So there are many [40:10] many obstacles along the way. On the [40:12] other hand, you can you know if we start [40:16] managing scenarios if you don't have [40:19] Benvir and the [40:23] on the other side Arabs as well as Yer [40:26] Golan in the equation. It's important to [40:27] talk about Yugolan in a second. Yeah, I [40:30] I do want to ask about that because you [40:31] wrote a really interesting piece um [40:34] asking whether Eisenkott could escape [40:37] the hard left on his side of the aisle [40:39] any more than Netanyahu could escape the [40:41] hard right. And the truth is, I think [40:43] anybody who knows, you know, like what's [40:45] going on inside, you know, the the, you [40:48] know, the the prime minister's inner [40:49] circle or even approximating it knows he [40:52] would rather not have Ben in his [40:54] coalition. But if he doesn't have Ben in [40:58] his coalition and the other side, the [41:00] more moderate people on the opposition, [41:03] they won't serve with him. So what [41:05] choice does he have? And indeed, what [41:07] choice do they have? [41:08] >> Right? And that's the same So Eisenhot [41:09] went into a vote sharing agreement with [41:12] Jera Golan which I think was a terrible [41:14] mistake because Eisenhot whatever you [41:17] say about him and there's certain [41:18] question marks and there are certain but [41:20] he's very much a man of the center and [41:21] he's very much a man of the Israeli [41:23] consensus and of the security consensus [41:25] and for some voters the notion that [41:28] their extra vote might not go to Eisenat [41:31] but might go to not just Yolan but [41:33] number six number eight number 10 on his [41:35] list is problematic. Why? Let's just [41:37] talk about Eisenhot for a second about [41:39] Yurgan. So Yur Golan is definitely a [41:42] hero, one of the heroes of October 7th. [41:43] He went down, he saved people. Nobody [41:46] should take that away from him. And he [41:47] had a very long distinguished career in [41:50] the Israeli Defense Forces. Nobody [41:52] should take that away from him. On the [41:53] other hand, he also has a certain kind [41:55] of tendency to have these um what we [41:58] call in Hebrew, these kind of uh uh [42:01] utterances that have for me crossed red [42:04] lines and have for my kids who've served [42:06] honorably crossed red lines. A couple of [42:08] years ago before October 7th, he [42:10] horrifically used the word Nazis in a [42:13] sentence about the IDF. More recently, [42:16] he and he rolled it back only a little [42:18] bit. He he he said that it's very [42:21] problematic to have the perception of an [42:23] army that looks like it enjoys killing [42:25] children. Now he put in two or three [42:27] wiggle words, but you just don't do [42:28] that. A you don't do that when my kids [42:31] are on the front line. You don't do that [42:33] when my kids are sacrificing every day. [42:35] And you certainly don't do it in an [42:36] international atmosphere which has [42:38] turned into one big global lynch mob. [42:42] And my friends on the left say, "Well, [42:43] what about Bengir?" I said, "Well, we're [42:45] never going to get out of this problem [42:48] if we justify our own leaders excesses [42:51] by looking at the radicals on the other [42:52] side." [42:53] >> Yeah. What aboutism? [42:54] >> What aboutism is just it's [42:55] intellectually sloppy and it's [42:57] unhelpful. And then you go down the list [42:59] of Yer Golad. First of all, he has one [43:01] or two truly honorable people. Gilead [43:03] Kurie, for example, um you can agree [43:05] with him, you can disagree with him. He [43:06] is is a man who's been in the in in [43:08] politics for a good 15 20 years and he [43:11] is honorable and he doesn't play that [43:13] game of of disrespect and of demagoguery [43:16] >> and he in specifically is an advocate [43:18] for something that the majority of [43:20] American Jews care about but not the [43:22] majority of Israeli Jews which is to say [43:24] religious pluralism. [43:25] >> Exactly. [43:26] >> Which is not an issue that Israelis [43:29] debate. It's a issue that American Jews [43:31] care a lot about. [43:32] >> Right. and and so he'd be an important [43:33] image uh you know for maker for for the [43:36] for the government. On the other hand, [43:38] and I don't want to go into names, there [43:39] there's somebody on on his list who [43:41] literally said Gaza is like the Warsaw [43:43] Ghetto. And so the problem for [43:46] centrists, ABBC's, let's call them [43:49] anti-BB centrists, is that there are [43:52] certain voices in the Argolan camp which [43:54] are also very problematic. And look, [43:57] everybody says at the end of the day, [43:58] coalitions you have to, you know, [43:59] swallow, but I prefer uh and that's my [44:03] centrist nature, all kinds of parties [44:06] having certain red lines. And the most [44:09] important red lines are not monitoring [44:11] your rivals red lines, but monitoring [44:13] your own camp's extremes, your own [44:15] camp's excesses. And I'm sorry to say [44:17] that in the United States of America and [44:18] in Israel and much of Europe, most [44:20] political parties, and frankly, most of [44:22] my friends are failing that test these [44:24] days. Yeah, I I think that's very true. [44:26] And I'm not sure that either Eisenhot or [44:29] Netanyahu can because of the electoral [44:31] math and because of the tribal nature of [44:33] what you've just described can escape [44:37] the people on their flanks and the [44:39] people on their flanks are, you know, [44:40] sort of sending all sorts of signals. I [44:42] I read an article in Harets trying to [44:45] reassure it's it's very hard left [44:47] readers that even though Eisenhot speaks [44:50] the same way as Netanyahu about security [44:53] his adviserss really agree with us and [44:55] you know so so you know you're sending [44:58] those kinds of signals [44:59] >> by the way just to say to say if I can [45:00] say one more thing you know about Haritz [45:03] in in that article you you recently [45:05] mentioned where I talked about the [45:06] looney left a few of my friends said how [45:08] dare you say there's a looney left you [45:09] know look how reasonable golan is I said [45:11] I read Harits every day. There's a [45:13] lonely there's a looney left out there. [45:15] [laughter] [45:16] >> Yeah. Yeah, it it does. [45:17] >> Which can only disrespect Israel, our [45:20] soldiers, our our our security needs, [45:22] and doesn't seem to have learned a thing [45:23] from October 7th. [45:25] >> Yeah. And which foreign elites tend to [45:27] look at as enlightened Israeli opinion [45:29] when in fact it's it's terribly [45:31] marginal, if not openly anti-sionist. [45:34] >> Right. And so I feel often caught [45:35] between the radical right and the lonely [45:36] left and orphaned. [45:38] >> Yeah. Well, that's that's that is the [45:40] nature of politics in this in this, you [45:42] know, hyperartisan era, I think, in both [45:44] countries. Um, whether or not this is [45:47] Netanyahu's last harrah and anybody who [45:50] bets again bets on, you know, Netanyahu, [45:54] you know, leaving the political scene, I [45:56] mean, you've you've lost your shirt [45:57] before, you'll lose it again. I'm not [45:59] going to place that bet. But what do you [46:02] see as his place in history? where, you [46:05] know, it is very difficult to, you know, [46:07] it's very difficult to do that in the [46:09] middle of a political debate because, [46:11] you know, such opinions are inherently [46:13] political. It's like Donald Trump, you [46:15] know, tweeting out a list of the [46:17] greatest presidents. But, um, where do [46:20] you know if if it is at all possible for [46:22] you to put on your historian's hat, um, [46:25] in the middle of this, you know, very [46:27] divisive, um, moment, where do you see [46:31] him in in Israeli history? How how is he [46:34] you know it's hard to say how is he [46:36] going to be remembered in a leftright [46:38] universe you know the the right will [46:39] always glorify him the left will [46:41] demonize him but what is a what would a [46:44] fair evaluation of a man who has been [46:48] you know a a part you know a leader of [46:50] Israel as I said for more than three [46:53] decades I I've actually thought about [46:55] this about how I would write his [46:56] political obituary uh when and when in [46:59] the eventually there will be a day where [47:01] where it will leave politics You know, I [47:03] think I think the first time I was asked [47:05] to do that was in 1999 and I I think I [47:08] did it and I I you know, like I would [47:09] like to erase that from my uh from my [47:12] resume, but you know, go ahead. I I [47:14] think I would start with first of all [47:16] his extraordinary contribution to [47:18] Israeli prosperity and to resetting the [47:20] Israeli uh economic system and ecosphere [47:24] such that you could have startup nation [47:26] such that we could be stunned after [47:29] October 7th. Nobody believed that the [47:31] Israeli economy would be able to absorb [47:33] the blows it has to sacrifice so many [47:37] workers to reserve duty and continue to [47:40] attract foreign investment and that's [47:42] because of the changes and the vision [47:44] that he had which goes back 2030 years [47:47] and so the capitalization of of Israel [47:49] and leading to its prosperity is going [47:51] to be one of his legacies that nobody [47:52] can question. Do we wish just as in the [47:55] United States that there was a better [47:57] distribution between rich and poor and [47:58] all that? Yes. But on the whole, that's [47:59] an extraordinary achievement. Second, [48:02] uh, Iran, Iran, Iran, I don't think [48:04] anyone in the Western world has been [48:07] more effective. Perhaps now we could say [48:09] Donald Trump, but Trump was late to the [48:11] scene. You know, chronologically, BB [48:13] Netanyahu has been calling out the evil [48:16] regime of Iran, which by the way, it [48:19] killed 36,000 of its own people in what, [48:23] two days or three days in January. And I [48:25] didn't hear anything from my progressive [48:26] friends. I didn't hear anything from [48:28] from the world. I didn't hear much at [48:30] the UN. Um so I I think the degree to [48:32] which he has focused on Iran not just as [48:34] a threat to Israel but as a threat to [48:38] the entire um uh to the to the stability [48:42] of the world and to the west and to and [48:44] now we've seen also to the Middle East [48:45] has been incredibly important. I think [48:47] third uh when we talk about you know [48:50] everybody talks about Israel's [48:50] diplomatic isolation. I don't know, [48:53] maybe I read the wrong paper, but it [48:55] seemed to me that last week during this [48:57] insane crisis in the air, an Israeli [49:01] an a fly Dubai jet filled with 164 [49:05] Israelis landed in Saudi Arabia. I'm old [49:08] enough to remember when that would have [49:10] been impossible. [49:12] And so Netanyahu's [49:15] skill and again Trump also was a part of [49:18] this in negotiating the Abraham Accords [49:21] in helping Israel uh basically join the [49:24] Middle East in the in the strongest of [49:26] ways and to a certain extent in [49:28] shrinking the conflict uh has been has [49:31] also been extraordinary. Fourth and here [49:32] I'm going to get more controversial. [49:36] I know there are many books out there [49:37] and I wasn't in the room, but I have a [49:40] hard time believing that anybody would [49:42] have been as effective in fighting this [49:44] war after October 7th. So, uh I I think [49:48] that he he put a lot of pressure. I [49:50] think he endured a lot of pressure, but [49:52] at the end of the day, 168 hostages came [49:55] home. And while we mourn every loss and [49:57] we mourn every day they were in abuse of [50:00] captivity by those human animals, I uh I [50:04] certainly didn't expect on October 8th [50:06] that we'd see so many home and that we [50:08] have everyone accounted for. So I think [50:10] those would be four accomplishments that [50:12] one cannot take away from him. On the [50:14] other hand, October 7th, while I pointed [50:17] out earlier it's a systemic failure, he [50:19] was not only the guy in charge, but it's [50:20] not like George W. Bush who came in to [50:24] office in January 2001 and then [50:27] September 2001 had a 9/11 and so it was [50:30] a joint Bush Clinton debacle. BB [50:32] Netanyahu has been charge of everything [50:34] [laughter] [50:35] of Israel for so many years. He has to [50:37] take responsibility. his failure both to [50:40] embrace [50:42] the hostage families to go down to the [50:44] kibbutim to to to be the kind of healing [50:46] leader we needed after October 7th and [50:48] the actual failure of October 7th are is [50:50] inexcusable. Second thing that's [50:52] inexcusable to me is the mainstreaming [50:54] of Bender, which I think as someone who [50:57] grew up in a Jabatinsky household and uh [51:00] and and and was a rare New Yorker in [51:02] 1977 who was excited when Manakim began [51:06] was elected and grew up with the values [51:08] and the true lowercase Liberalism and [51:10] the democratic vision of Jabatinsky of [51:13] the revisionist party of the Likood of [51:16] Managen [51:17] uh and often even be in the same room [51:20] let alone the same Knesset. with Mayor [51:22] Kahana. The degree to which Benism [51:26] and I don't want to just make it about a [51:28] person and and a kind of disrespect for [51:31] fellow citizens of Israel uh is one of [51:33] the things that that Netanyahu is [51:35] responsible for. And then third uh uh [51:38] that I would blame him for is is more [51:40] broadly and I know I could also blame [51:42] the left but the the mishandling of the [51:46] judicial reform. By the way, the more [51:48] rightwing you are, the more you wanted a [51:50] judicial reform, the angry you should be [51:52] at the incompetence with which that [51:55] whole judicial reform story played out [51:57] because they confused [51:59] a really quite technical series of [52:01] changes they needed to make with a [52:03] tribal need for revenge. [52:05] And I think that when we write the [52:07] history of this era, we will have to [52:09] acknowledge the degree to which [52:10] Netanyahu unleashed some of those tribal [52:13] demons, especially in the latter part of [52:15] his career, as he needed to try to tame [52:18] those tigers in order to stay in power. [52:21] But ultimately, we know it's impossible [52:22] to tame the tiger. [52:25] >> I think those are all fair points. You [52:26] know, I think some some are un, you [52:28] know, are, you know, really can't be [52:31] debated. They're so obviously true. [52:33] others obviously couldn't be debated but [52:35] I think you you've summed it up. Um I [52:37] know I was asked to write I I was given [52:39] 400 words to write in a symposium at the [52:42] free pre free pre-press to answer this [52:44] very question and definitely wasn't [52:46] enough. I'm going to use our own former [52:48] JNS to do something uh more [52:50] >> I think I use more than 400 words too so [52:52] >> Oh yeah right exactly well I you always [52:54] cheat on those things. Um let's discuss [52:58] the current state of the USIsrael [52:59] alliance. I think you were really [53:01] correct when you wrote recently that [53:03] rather than illustrating its crack up, [53:05] the arguments between President Trump [53:07] and Netanyahu showed the strength of the [53:09] alliance because it can survive [53:11] arguments that it's not uh you know this [53:13] sort of client superpower relationship [53:17] solely. But I guess the the question [53:19] looming over the alliance is whether it [53:22] can survive a Democratic party that that [53:25] is now increasingly dominated by the [53:28] anti-ionist left and the prospect on the [53:31] other side of the aisle of a GOP that [53:34] could very well be led by someone like [53:36] JD Vance who is neutral at best about uh [53:41] the anti-semitism of his pal Tucker [53:43] Carlson and seems to think that the [53:45] Groper vote is is important to the [53:47] republic. Republicans. [53:49] >> It really is stunning. It goes back to [53:51] what we were saying at the beginning of [53:52] the broadcast that the results of [53:55] October 7th which should have brought a [53:57] moral clarity to this issue and uh [54:01] should have reminded Americans of 9/11 [54:04] uh of the threat of jihadism and of the [54:06] assault on liberalism that takes place [54:08] in so many Muslim countries and so many [54:10] Palestinian homes every single day that [54:13] somehow or other it's been turned into [54:15] uh a wedge between the Israeli people [54:18] and the American people. uh between [54:20] Israel and the Democratic party, as you [54:21] point out, between the Israel and and [54:23] certain growing leaders in the [54:25] Republican party and the Tucker [54:26] Carlson's who are obsessed about Israel. [54:29] So, you have this perfect storm. Um, and [54:32] part of the reason why I like being a [54:34] historian is because it can make me [54:35] optimistic. [54:38] There are certain builtin [54:41] affinities between the United States of [54:43] America and Israel when it comes to the [54:46] kind of I call us over the rainbow [54:49] democracies we both are. I spent many [54:51] years in Canada kind of lovely place [54:53] less so now but um I used to say a [54:55] lovely place uh but they're about peace [54:57] order and good government. That's a very [54:59] static vision. Israel and the United [55:00] States of America are in a small club of [55:04] democracies, but in a smaller club of [55:06] countries that think about tomorrow, [55:10] don't stop thinking about tomorrow and [55:13] have a land that they dreamed of once in [55:14] a lullaby and and they they're they're [55:17] kind of catalytic and idealistic. There [55:20] are biblical ties that both promised [55:24] lands have. There are the fact that both [55:26] are liberal democracies. There also is [55:28] so there there's a kind of ideological [55:30] affinity. There also is a very clear as [55:33] we saw most recently in the Iran war a [55:37] deep deep strategic alliance that will [55:39] not go away so quickly. So on my darkest [55:42] of days when I see the Democratic Party [55:45] forgetting all the idealistic [55:46] connections, I at least say, "Okay, [55:49] well, you know, for years, nobody's been [55:50] in love with Saudi Arabia and its [55:52] political system, but one politician [55:54] after another, one general after [55:56] another, one diplomat after another has [55:58] seen the power of being allied with [55:59] Soviet Saudi Arabia." And that's why I [56:01] recently came out with this uh short [56:03] punchy essential guide to the US Israel [56:05] partnership. And I call Israel both the [56:08] ROI ally because there's no ally that [56:11] provides the same return on investment. [56:13] Egypt gets $2.5 billion a year from the [56:15] United States of America and spits back [56:18] very little. Israel gets $3.3 billion a [56:22] year. Uh most of which has to spend on [56:24] the American arms industry. [56:26] >> The overwhelming majority of it is spent [56:28] basically it's an aid package for the [56:30] American arms industry. [56:32] >> Right. and and keeps on and and keeps on [56:33] innovating and and and advancing and [56:36] protecting and defending and defending [56:38] itself. And that's why it also called [56:40] Israel the DIY ally for do-it-yourself, [56:42] but it's the defendyourself ally. [56:44] Israelis don't want Americans defending [56:46] it. Israelis want when necessary [56:49] American help, but ultimately the [56:51] ability to defend ourselves on our own. [56:53] And so I'm not willing to to give up on [56:58] the alliance. I'm not willing to say [57:00] it's over. I can say that I'm shocked at [57:02] the degree at which it's become a [57:03] punchline. But I'll also go back to um [57:07] historical moments. First of all, [57:09] October 8th, October 10th, October 20th, [57:11] if you saw the polls, then [57:14] 70 80% of Americans were with Israel. [57:17] And we live in a moment of great [57:19] volatility. We also live in a moment of [57:22] great manas. [57:24] Think back over the last six years. the [57:26] mania, whatever you think of the [57:27] anti-racism issue over George Floyd, the [57:30] mania over vaccine, the mania over [57:32] trans, the mania, we jump from mania to [57:34] mania. Now, so it's very possible that [57:39] this anti-Israel mania will run its [57:41] course either because of some horrific [57:44] act of history or because just they'll [57:46] jump onto another uh bandwagon. The [57:49] scary part about it is that all the [57:51] other mania didn't have the same [57:54] determined group of progressives, [57:57] Muslims, and now right-wingers pushing [58:01] it. And so, I'm not going to predict [58:03] that the mania will disappear, but it [58:04] could just be a passing mania. But if we [58:06] go back to history in the early 1990s, [58:11] Israel's uh Israel's standing in the [58:14] United States of America was starting to [58:16] plummet. After the Persian Gulf War, [58:18] which was a high uh when Israel didn't [58:21] defend itself and allowed itself to [58:23] absorb the bombs of the the uh the scuzz [58:26] of Saddam Hussein, then it was up, then [58:28] it went down. And lo and behold, with [58:30] the start of the Madrid conference and [58:32] then Oslo and then Bill Clinton's [58:34] presidency, whatever we think of Oslo [58:35] and Bill Clinton, Israel's standing went [58:37] up and then for the next 20 years, 20 20 [58:40] to 30 years, it was quite solid. So I am [58:44] not willing to say the mourner's cottish [58:47] the mourers's prayer over the alliance [58:49] but there's definitely work to do and [58:51] there's definitely a need for the next [58:53] government to look at repairing [58:56] relations with the Democratic party with [58:59] vast parts of the American Jewish [59:00] community with the world uh outside the [59:03] Middle East um as a priority. [59:06] >> Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I think [59:08] that's, you know, unexceptional, [59:11] but that's a good um perspective. [59:13] Although, I don't really think you're, [59:15] you know, even the cleverest, the most [59:17] nimble Israeli government, the most [59:20] moderate Israeli government is really [59:21] going to be able to persuade uh the base [59:24] of the Democratic Party, the the you [59:26] know, the Democratic party of Zoran [59:29] Mdani and Abdul Elsad um to think better [59:32] of Israel, that that's not going to [59:33] happen. [59:35] And if that's the faction that is taking [59:37] over the Democratic Party, and you can [59:40] make an argument that it is, that's the [59:42] problem. [59:43] >> No, look, and the American that the [59:45] mainstream American Jewish idea that [59:46] it's all BB's fault, that if we only [59:48] didn't have BB, first of all, we had a [59:50] year and a half of a really interesting [59:52] government, again, you can love him or [59:53] hate him, of Laid Bennett with Arabs in [59:55] the coalition. Didn't make a difference. [59:57] Didn't convince Mani not to call [60:00] genocide. And by the way, the call of [60:01] genocide, as you will know, way predated [60:04] October 7th. Um, the hope is actually a [60:07] bankshot that if the Democratic Party [60:10] ultimately sees the danger to America, [60:13] to the Democratic Party of Mamani, of [60:16] Elsa, of the squad, and expunes it or or [60:21] expels it, then part of the redefinition [60:24] of the Democratic Party could be a [60:26] return. But it's terrifying to see the [60:28] degree to which so many Democratic [60:30] politicians and so many Jewish Democrats [60:33] are rolling over and [60:38] the utter silence of Charles Schumer. [60:40] >> Well, it's not silence. He's he's [60:42] funding Elsa's campaign now. [60:44] >> Yeah. Before we get to say about I want [60:45] to start with Hassan [60:46] >> Oh, yeah. [60:47] >> The utter silence. The utter [60:48] unconscionable silence when it comes to [60:50] Hassan who celebrates 911 and [60:52] justifies 911 which killed so many New [60:54] Yorkers, let alone Americans. And then [60:56] on top of it, the speed with which of 24 [60:58] hours after Elsa runs a campaign of [61:01] total and utter disrespect and contempt [61:03] for Schumer to then have Schumer begging [61:05] for his approval is sickening. And I [61:09] keep on saying to my Democratic friends, [61:11] you have to understand Els is a greater [61:14] danger to the Democratic party than he [61:16] is to Israel because it'll be a gift to [61:20] Republican [61:21] who who will be running against him for [61:23] the next 10 years. Don't underestimate [61:25] what it'll mean to have a senator saying [61:27] the kinds of things he says and a [61:29] senator with the kind of profile he has [61:31] and a senator with basically the clever [61:33] media manipulation that he has. That [61:35] combination of skills and and extremism [61:37] will just be a gift that'll keep on [61:39] giving to the to the Republican party [61:40] and hurt the Democratic party. [61:42] >> Yeah, I think that will play out more in [61:44] 2028 than in 2026. But yeah, I think [61:47] you're right. [61:47] >> That's exact that's exactly the point [61:49] that they're thinking 2026, how do we [61:51] recapture the Senate? They're not [61:52] realizing the degree to which look, if I [61:54] was a Republican operative, I would [61:56] already be running ads [61:59] against Chevier, the one of the [62:01] Democratic congressional candidates um [62:03] who won the primaries in in June in New [62:05] York, who said, "Oh, I didn't have uh a [62:08] napkin, so I wiped my fingers on the [62:09] American flag." And I would just play [62:11] that that clip of that of somebody [62:13] reading that tweet and say to every [62:15] single Democratic member of Congress, [62:17] "Where do you stand on that?" [62:19] >> Yeah. Listen, it's it's the same formula [62:21] that reele that reelected Trump in 2024 [62:24] to be honest. The extremism of the [62:26] Democratic party [62:27] >> and the inability of the Democrat sorry [62:28] the inability of the Democratic party to [62:30] realize how toxic these cultural issues [62:32] are and how toxic this anti-Americanism [62:35] is. [62:35] >> Yeah. Well, we hope it will remain [62:37] toxic. But let me drill down a little [62:41] bit more. And in my last question for [62:44] you, let's talk about American Jews and [62:46] how they're reacting to really the the [62:50] change in temperature in in in the [62:52] United States. Um American Jews have [62:54] lived for decades. Um anti-semitism, you [62:58] know, notwithstanding, which never [63:00] entirely went away, rightly believing [63:02] that they were completely accepted [63:04] throughout American society. you know, [63:06] like you could a Jew could aspire to any [63:09] job possible, you know, except maybe, [63:11] you know, to be the archbishop of the [63:13] Catholic Dasis of New York. Um, but now [63:16] they have to cope with life in an era [63:18] where anti-semitism is not just in [63:20] fashion on the far right and the far [63:21] left, but in mainstream discourse and [63:24] politics in the New York Times. How do [63:26] you think that's going to affect the [63:29] future course of of this community? [63:31] Well, it's a nice way it closes the [63:32] conversational circle because we started [63:33] with a small group of anti-ionists, but [63:35] we really have to talk about the much [63:37] larger group of what I call conditional [63:39] Zionists or even morano Zionists. And [63:42] but before I get to that, I do want to [63:43] start with Hakarat to acknowledgement of [63:45] the good. In the days after October 7th, [63:47] over a billion dollars was donated. Um, [63:50] and not only do not only money, but [63:52] helmets and Kevlar vests and and and [63:54] knitted socks and and soap and cookies [63:58] and love and support and embrace both [64:01] from the American people. I have to say [64:03] that one of the great moments of my life [64:05] was when I saw pictures of the USS [64:08] Gerald R. Ford coming down the med [64:10] coming coming toward the Mediterranean [64:11] and I knew that America had our back. [64:14] And we've seen over the last three years [64:15] unbelievable acts of heroes of heroism [64:18] from our student heroes, from some of [64:20] the mainstream Jewish organizations that [64:22] some of us had criticized for a long [64:23] time. And uh and and we've seen even, [64:27] you know, uh we we've seen in the reform [64:29] movement um and in some of the uh [64:32] denominations that I've criticized [64:34] voices come out and say, "Whoa, we need [64:36] some red lines." Having said that, what [64:39] terrifies me are the numbers that 39% of [64:43] American Jews answered in a Washington [64:45] Post poll that Israel's committed [64:46] genocide. 61% said Israel is guilty of [64:49] war crimes. What is it? Uh 80 almost 80% [64:53] agree that Israel has the right to be a [64:55] Jewish democratic state and exist in [64:57] peace, which is the fundamental Zionist [64:59] idea. But only 39% will call themselves [65:01] Zionist. those people we who represent [65:05] the majority of American Jews and [65:07] unfortunately many of their most [65:09] cowardly leaders [65:12] because they're now on probation with [65:14] their neighbors. They're putting Israel, [65:16] Zionism, and Judaism on probation. And [65:19] because we've built up in the American [65:21] Jewish community over not a year or [65:24] three years, but over two, three decades [65:27] a culture of being nice, of being [65:30] accepted, a culture of tikun lamism, [65:34] which doesn't look at Judaism as the [65:36] start, but looks at the agenda of the [65:38] Democratic Party of the moment as the [65:40] start, which looks at um uh the the need [65:44] to to fit in and to go to move along as [65:47] more important than the need to stand [65:49] tall and be proud. Those people, that [65:53] growing majority that are what I call [65:56] either morano Zionists because they're [65:57] hiding their Zionism or they're [65:59] conditional Zionist. Well, as long as [66:01] Israel is nice and as long as Israel [66:04] doesn't embarrass me and as long as [66:05] Israel doesn't fight too hard to defend [66:06] itself, I'm okay with it. Well, you [66:09] know, none of those people who overlap [66:11] with people who hate Donald Trump, they [66:13] didn't move to Canada. I checked the [66:14] numbers. They didn't move to Canada [66:16] after Trump was elected. Why are they [66:18] willing to abandon the Jewish state and [66:20] only see it through a political partisan [66:22] lens and only define Israel through its [66:25] leaders when they don't do it with their [66:26] same home country? It's because at the [66:28] end of the day, they see America as [66:29] their home. So I'm calling for a renewed [66:32] Zionist vision, a proud Zionism, an [66:35] acknowledgement of all the American [66:37] Jewish heroes who have stepped up, a [66:38] historical recognition that at the end [66:40] of the day, Judaism has been and [66:42] Judaism, Zionism, Israel was always [66:45] redeemed and led by the small saving [66:48] remnant. But this is an opportunity for [66:50] us. This is an opportunity when we've [66:52] seen the evil of our enemies. When we've [66:54] seen the hypocrisy of so-called false [66:56] friends to have a renewal and to have a [66:59] reset button of what it means to be a [67:00] proud, strong American Jew. And this [67:02] isn't a question of left right. This is [67:04] a matter of right and wrong. And this is [67:05] a matter of being on the right side of [67:06] history or being on the wrong side of [67:08] history. And it's a matter of putting [67:09] yourself out there and knowing who you [67:12] are or because you're on probation, [67:14] putting your core values on probation. [67:16] And to me, that's unacceptable. Yeah, I [67:18] think that's a good point for us to end [67:20] on. Gil, thanks so much for joining us [67:22] today. How can our viewers and listeners [67:25] get your books, including your most [67:26] recent one, and follow your work? Uh, go [67:29] to my website, www.giltroy.com, [67:32] and my three essential guides to October [67:33] 7th, to Zionism and anti-ionism, and to [67:36] the US Israel partnership are there, but [67:37] also at the JPI website. And uh, keep on [67:40] doing your great writing, and uh, let's [67:42] continue the conversation. [67:43] >> Well, thank you. We also want to thank [67:45] our audience. Please remember to tune in [67:47] every day for Jonathan Tobin Daily [67:48] Edition which you can hear wherever you [67:51] get your podcasts. And whether you're [67:52] listening to us on any one of them or [67:54] watching us live on Facebook or X or on [67:57] the JNS YouTube channel, please like and [67:59] or subscribe to JNS. Click on the bell [68:01] for notifications and give us good [68:03] reviews. Please write to us at think [68:05] twice js.org and let us know where you [68:08] listen or watch the show and what you [68:10] think about it. And remember, keep [68:12] reading and thinking for yourself. And [68:14] we'll see you again next week.
