Transcript [00:01] Hello, Sha Tova and welcome to Hadasa [00:04] Magazine presents a program and podcast [00:07] for those who love Hadasa Magazine and [00:09] want more and for those who have never [00:11] heard of the magazine and are looking [00:12] for stimulating conversations with [00:14] acclaimed Jewish authors, thinkers, [00:16] celebrities, and culinary stars. I'm [00:18] your host, Lisa Hostin, the executive [00:21] editor of Hadasa Magazine. I'm delighted [00:24] to be in conversation today with [00:25] Isabella Tabarovski and Chai Davididai, [00:29] important thinkers and authors for our [00:31] time. Both of whom have new books that [00:33] take deep dives into the issue we are [00:35] addressing tonight. Textbook anti- [00:38] Zionism, Understanding the Climate on [00:40] Campus. The topic is timely as colleges [00:43] and universities around the country [00:45] start back up for a new school year and [00:47] as the Jewish New Year gets underway as [00:49] well. There has been so much discussion [00:51] about what's happening on campus, [00:53] especially over the past few years since [00:55] October 7th, whose third anniversary is [00:57] also rapidly approaching. But both [01:00] Isabella with her new book, Beia [01:02] Refusnic, a Jewish students survival [01:04] guide, and Shai, whose forthcoming [01:06] American Intellectual Anti-semitism, the [01:09] anti-Jewish movement tearing through our [01:11] universities, bring new perspectives and [01:14] insight to the topic which continues to [01:16] royal our world. [01:18] Thanks to all of you in the audience for [01:20] joining us today. If this is your first [01:22] Hadasa Magazine presents program, a [01:24] special welcome. And I hope you take the [01:26] time to learn more about Hadassa and the [01:28] work that the largest Jewish women's [01:29] organization in the United States does [01:32] to heal those in Israel through its two [01:34] worldclass hospitals in Jerusalem and [01:36] through its youth aliyah villages for [01:38] atrisisk children as well as through its [01:40] advocacy in the United States on matters [01:43] relating to Israel anti-semitism [01:45] including anti-semitism on campus [01:48] women's empowerment and women's health [01:50] including reproductive rights and [01:51] conflict related sexual violence. If [01:54] you're not already a member, please [01:56] consider joining so you can enjoy the [01:58] magazine, which is free with membership, [02:00] as well as all the wonderful programming [02:02] the magazine and the rest of Hadassa [02:03] provides. And of course, your donations [02:05] are always welcome and valued. Links for [02:08] both membership and contributions are in [02:10] the chat box, as are links to buy the [02:12] books written by our guests, which I [02:14] highly recommend. [02:16] We welcome audience questions throughout [02:17] the conversation. Please be sure to [02:19] write them in the Q&A. And now to [02:22] introduce our guests. Isabella [02:24] Tabarovski, a scholar of Soviet [02:26] anti-ionism and contemporary [02:28] anti-semitism, is currently a fellow [02:30] with the Woodro Wilson International [02:32] Center for Scholars in Washington DC. [02:35] She's a senior fellow with the Z3 [02:37] Institute for Jewish Priorities in Palo [02:39] Alto, a fellow with the London Center [02:41] for the Study of Contemporary [02:43] Anti-semitism, and also at the Compair [02:45] Center for the Study of Anti-semitism [02:47] and Racism at the University of Kyifa. a [02:50] contributing writer at Tablet. She has [02:52] published in many other outlets as well, [02:54] including Newsweek, Sappier, the [02:56] National Interest, The Forward, and the [02:57] Jewish Telegraphic Agency. And her [03:00] essays have appeared in several edited [03:02] volumes, including October 7th, the war [03:04] over words and deeds, the rebirth of [03:06] anti-semitism in the 21st century, and [03:09] Jewish priorities, 65 proposals for the [03:11] future of our people. Her work has been [03:14] translated into Spanish, French, [03:15] Portuguese, German, Polish, Russian, [03:17] Czech, and other languages. Isabella, [03:20] who grew up in Siberia and immigrated to [03:22] the United States from the USSR with her [03:24] family in 1990, now lives in Jerusalem, [03:27] but spends a lot of time in the US as [03:29] well. [03:31] Since October 7, 2023, Shai Davididai, a [03:34] former Columbia University professor, [03:36] has emerged as a prominent voice against [03:38] anti-semitism and against support for [03:40] terrorism in North America. the host of [03:43] two podcasts, Here I Am with Shy [03:45] Davididai and Pragmatic Judaism, who got [03:48] and he also garners a large social media [03:51] following. He was named one of the [03:53] Jerusalem Post's 50 most influential [03:55] Jews of 2024, was honored by the Israeli [03:58] Parliament and awarded the Jerusalem [04:00] Prize at the Jerusalem Conference in New [04:02] York City. His writing has been featured [04:04] in the New York Times, the Washington [04:06] Post, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, and [04:08] Fox News. He holds a PhD in social [04:11] psychology from Cornell University and [04:13] has taught at Princeton, the New School [04:15] for Social Research in Colombia. He [04:17] lives in New York City with his wife and [04:18] two young children. And he spends a lot [04:20] of time in Israel. They pass each other [04:22] in the sky. [04:24] Welcome to you both. [04:27] >> Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be [04:28] here. [04:29] >> It's incredible. Thank you so so much. [04:32] >> Thank you for joining us today and [04:34] congratulation on your new books. As I [04:35] said, I highly recommend them to our [04:37] audience. go out and buy several copies. [04:39] I'm especially delighted that we [04:41] introduced you two to each other and are [04:43] bringing you together for the first [04:44] time. Your work overlaps in important [04:46] yet distinct ways and you have said you [04:49] have each learned from the other's work. [04:51] You both bring scholarly research and [04:53] you also both believe that courage and [04:55] action are more important than outrage [04:57] and performance when it comes to [04:58] fighting anti-semitism and anti-ionism. [05:01] We're going to dive deep into the [05:02] problems on campus, the roots of those [05:04] problems, as well as some potential [05:05] solutions and calls to action. So, I [05:08] want to start by asking each of you to [05:10] talk a little bit about your [05:11] backgrounds. Neither of you set out to [05:13] focus in your careers on writing and [05:16] speaking out about anti-semitism and [05:17] anti-ionism. But here you are. So, tell [05:20] us where you were and what you were [05:22] focused on when your lives took this [05:24] dramatic turn and you were propelled [05:26] toward researching, writing, and [05:27] speaking out about these issues. Let's [05:29] start with you, Shai. You call yourself [05:31] an accidental activist sparked by what [05:33] you saw on the campus of Columbia [05:35] University immediately following the [05:37] October 7th massacre in Israel. So share [05:39] with us a little bit about that story. [05:42] >> Thank you, Lisa. So I am an accidental [05:44] activist. I did not plan on doing this. [05:48] Um but now that I've been dealt this [05:50] hand, I'm trying to do the most of uh [05:52] what I have. But if you'd have met me on [05:55] October 6, 2023, uh while my values were [05:59] the same, while my personal appearance [06:00] was the same, I was a very different [06:02] person. I was a professor at Columbia [06:05] Business School. I had received my PhD [06:07] in social psychology. And what I was [06:08] really interested in, still am, but what [06:11] I was doing is researching and studying [06:14] how people understand the world when it [06:16] comes to economic inequality and [06:19] conflict and resolution. And I was [06:20] teaching negotiations. So all of those [06:24] things I feel like prepared me for that [06:26] moment because for me it really started [06:30] on October 12th, 2023. So people, you [06:34] know, obviously October 7 is the most [06:36] important date that we should always [06:37] focus on. But for me at Columbia [06:40] University, 5 days after the massacre [06:43] was the first protest and it was the [06:45] first time that I saw hatred [06:49] with my own eyes. I mean, I I've always [06:51] known that there's hatred in the world. [06:53] I know that people hate the Jews, that [06:54] people hate Israelis. I assumed that I [06:57] am hated because I'm part of those [06:59] groups, but I have never seen it face to [07:02] face. And on October 12, 2023 was one of [07:06] what would then become a more than a [07:09] year'slong protest at Colombia where [07:12] people that we've now known for, you [07:14] know, because for other reasons, Mahmud [07:16] Khalil, Mosen Madawi, and many, many of [07:19] our students and professors really just [07:23] were celebrating [07:25] our worst moment in our nation's [07:27] history. And they were gleefully [07:30] celebrating it. And when they looked at [07:32] us, the Jewish students and a few [07:34] faculty that were standing maybe 10, 15 [07:38] yards away, they looked at us with anger [07:41] and with hatred. [07:44] And at that moment, it was it was as if [07:46] I felt like this is not acceptable. Not [07:50] here, not anywhere. And I have to do [07:53] something about it because no one else [07:54] will. [07:58] We'll get back into more details as as [08:00] we go on. But Isabelle, let me turn to [08:02] you. You immigrated from the Soviet [08:04] Union. You were about 20, I think. And [08:06] you were immersing yourself in a [08:07] professional career when about a decade [08:09] ago you pivoted. So, where were you at [08:12] the time? What was the spark for you? [08:13] And what led to this book? [08:16] >> Exactly. So, uh, we came to America in [08:19] 1990 with that big wave of, uh, Russian [08:21] Jewish immigration. [08:23] And you know we immigrated because of [08:25] anti-semitism in the Soviet Union and we [08:29] expected that in America we would we [08:31] would not encounter it again. And you [08:34] know for 25 years for almost 30 years [08:36] actually America completely fulfilled [08:38] that promise to me. You know I I [08:40] completely forgot that anti-semitism [08:42] existed. You know the Soviet Union fell [08:43] apart and it was like okay all of that [08:45] is in the past. There is no [08:46] antise-mitism in this country. I can get [08:49] I got great jobs. I got into great [08:51] universities, got great jobs, you know, [08:52] not like this is where Soviet Jews would [08:54] have encountered antise-semitism. There [08:56] was none of it in America. And then a [08:59] moment came, I think it was 2018 when I [09:02] turned on the news and I saw an item uh [09:06] that that reported a a one of those [09:10] protests on campuses that have now [09:12] become so familiar to us. But back then, [09:15] it struck me as something really [09:17] shocking. It was a group of young [09:19] people, students on an American campus [09:22] carrying those signs, you know, Israel [09:23] is an aparate state, Zionism is racism. [09:26] And I was truly shocked because to me [09:28] that there was immediately an [09:30] association with something I couldn't [09:32] quite place, you know, because I think I [09:34] had already forgotten what it was. And [09:36] I, you know, often tell this story. I [09:38] called my dad because I was so confused, [09:40] but I felt like I needed to talk to him [09:42] about it. And I said, you know, dad, [09:44] here's what's going on. And and by the [09:46] way, they're saying they're not being [09:47] anti-Semitic, they're just being [09:48] anti-ionist. [09:50] >> And my dad laughed and he said, "Oh, [09:55] this we've heard before." And and that [09:58] was that proverbial kind of light bulb. [10:00] I think I tell the story in the book [10:01] where I thought, "Okay, that's it. We [10:04] have heard this before, but why is it [10:06] here? Why is it here 28 years after we [10:09] immigrated? Why was it here always?" And [10:12] I just hadn't seen it. So all these [10:14] questions came up in my mind and so I [10:16] started researching them. By then I had [10:18] already been researching and writing [10:20] mostly about the Holocaust. Uh I was [10:22] writing a lot about the Holocaust in [10:24] Russia as it took place there, the [10:26] Holocaust by bullets and and then that [10:29] really changed uh everything for me. [10:31] This became the main topic of my [10:33] research and writing and it's become it [10:36] it became the foundation for the book [10:38] ultimately. [10:41] So in the forward to your book, Natan [10:43] Sheransky, who of course is probably the [10:46] most recognizable figure from the Soviet [10:48] jury movement, he cites an article he [10:51] wrote in the Israeli daily Marie back in [10:53] 2003 when he already began seeing the [10:56] writing on the wall and has and he has [10:58] long been involved in college [11:00] initiatives. He wrote, "As Middle East [11:03] study centers were beginning to flourish [11:05] on American campuses, for the first [11:07] time, I had seen American Jewish [11:08] students and faculty afraid to speak [11:10] openly in support of Israel for fear it [11:12] would damage their careers. American [11:14] universities are the main battleground [11:16] for the future of the Jewish people," he [11:18] told then Prime Minister Ariel Chiron. [11:21] That's a pretty powerful statement. So, [11:23] you both in your books give histories of [11:26] the campuses that make clear this is not [11:27] a new problem. You're talking about [11:29] 2018. and he's already going back to [11:31] 2003. But the rootedness of the problem [11:34] is what led to the explosion of the [11:37] anti-Israel, anti-semitic activity in [11:40] the wake of October 7th. So let's talk [11:42] about those roots. So Shai, your book, [11:45] American Intellectual Anti-Zionism makes [11:48] the I'm sorry, anti-semitism makes the [11:51] case that universities have become [11:53] particularly fertile ground for [11:55] anti-ionist and anti-semitic narratives. [11:58] So what role do faculty, curricula and [12:01] student organizations play in shaping [12:03] this hostile environment? [12:06] >> Yeah. So, you know, I think that's the [12:08] main question and for me actually the [12:11] reason the way I got to writing my book [12:13] was because I had no idea because I [12:17] unlike Sheransky I didn't know on 2000 [12:20] October 123 like I said it it really hit [12:23] me like wow there's a problem here but [12:25] instead of seeing the problem evolve as [12:28] Natani mentioned in 2003 like Isabella [12:31] in 2010 I really just saw the [12:34] consequences of it and had to really [12:37] figure out the way backward and and once [12:39] I realized what I was seeing I felt like [12:42] I had to show other people and that's [12:43] why I wrote the book and for me what I [12:46] was seeing was a closed intellectual [12:49] system that was not generated [12:53] spontaneously but created created uh [12:56] theoretically or ideologically based on [12:59] 1950s 1960s mor um relative moral [13:04] relativism uh postcolonial thought then [13:07] taking operationally things from uh [13:10] kamas the Muslim Brotherhood Qatari [13:13] funding and really putting everything [13:15] together into this environment where you [13:19] have professors and we must remember [13:22] professors who are not accountable to [13:24] anyone other than themselves but and [13:27] they have created this system where [13:30] there's a new language and in that new [13:33] language [13:35] Jews, the Jewish state and Jewish [13:38] collective as a whole are evil and [13:41] opposing them is resistance and is [13:43] liberation and therefore is something [13:46] virtuous. And once they created that [13:48] language, the new reality started [13:51] cropping up. So it started with [13:54] professors that's just teaching their [13:56] PhD students and writing, you know, [13:58] academic articles that no one reads or [14:01] very few people read. But then those PhD [14:04] students got to become faculty and all [14:06] of a sudden they had their own PhD [14:08] students and they started exchanging PhD [14:11] students. So they created a network and [14:13] then they started teaching undergraduate [14:15] students who then go to graduate. They [14:18] go to the New York Times, the Washington [14:20] Post, they go to cultural institutions [14:23] and those graduates of the universities [14:27] keep hiring people that come from those [14:29] universities. therefore [14:31] indoctrinated in this closed ideological [14:34] environment. Now, this is almost like [14:36] taking a barrel and stuffing it with [14:40] explosives [14:42] and October 7 was the match that that [14:45] lit it all up. But the ideological uh [14:49] infrastructure, which is what I get into [14:51] in the book, was really there preparing [14:54] just to explode. [14:56] So, in the book you cite a study of 50 [14:59] syllabi on the Israeli Palestinian [15:00] conflict at 40 colleges. I'm not exactly [15:02] sure what the date of that study was, [15:04] but that found unsurprisingly a [15:06] significant anti-Israel bias in assigned [15:08] course readings. And you write that [15:10] Edward Sav's work, I'm I'm sure you'll [15:13] get to him as well, Orientalism, which [15:15] was found in over 16,000 course syllabi, [15:18] more than any other work in the Western [15:20] canon. That's actually quite a [15:21] statement. Includes its assumptions [15:24] about nationalism, colonialism, and [15:25] imperialism. And you write, "In [15:27] presenting the Jewish homeland through a [15:28] uniquely critical lens, the imbalance [15:31] imposed a one-side anti-Jewish, [15:34] anti-Israeli, and anti-American ideology [15:36] on otherwise uninformed students, [15:39] shaping how students see the world long [15:41] after they graduate. This [15:42] intellectualized ecosystem normalizes [15:44] anti-Jewish sentiment as socially [15:46] acceptable, conditions students to [15:48] equate Israel with oppression and Jews [15:50] with white supremacy, and leaves many [15:52] illequipped to critically evaluate [15:54] competing narratives, historical [15:56] evidence, or moral complexity. [16:00] Has the problem gotten worse over time? [16:01] And also, how widespread? You know, we [16:04] spent a lot of time talking about, you [16:06] know, the elite the IV League schools [16:09] and we know that there are some schools [16:10] who actually were much more successful [16:12] in even navigating the October 7th um [16:15] you know issues that were going on. So, [16:18] how widespread is this and has it gotten [16:20] worse? [16:22] >> The the unfortunate answer is yes, it's [16:26] gotten worse and it's widespread. Now, [16:28] it might not be as widespread as some [16:31] people feel and and there are much [16:33] better schools than others and we should [16:36] acknowledge that and celebrate those [16:38] schools. But it really is when I was [16:41] researching for my book everywhere. And [16:44] one of the things that I do in the book [16:46] is really just give as much specific [16:50] examples of anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli [16:54] rhetoric and actions because I want [16:56] people to understand it's not just [16:59] Colombia. It's not just Harvard. It's at [17:01] Mbury College and it's at Penn State and [17:04] it's in the West Coast and it's really [17:06] is everywhere. Now it has gotten worse [17:10] and partially because naturally when you [17:13] let a lie and really this ideology this [17:17] American intellectual antise-mitism [17:18] rests on certain lies and you let a lie [17:22] exist on its own without any [17:25] contradictions it slowly takes over. So [17:28] if you have 55% [17:31] professors who are vehemently [17:33] anti-Israel, [17:34] the next professor to be hired by [17:36] majority vote is going to be an [17:38] anti-Israel professor. And then so on [17:41] and so forth until you get entire [17:43] departments that are completely [17:46] anti-Israel. Sometimes they have that [17:48] one professor who isn't, not necessarily [17:51] pro- Israel, but isn't. And just to say [17:54] that we're not that bad. Now I want to [17:56] make clear that the problem is not [17:58] necessarily just the fact that they are [18:00] ideologically biased. The problem is [18:03] that they do not let the students really [18:06] consider two sides of the of the [18:08] question. Right? To me that is a [18:10] problem. There's lack of respect for [18:13] students because if you assign Edward [18:16] Sad's orientalism which I think you [18:18] should it's an important piece even if [18:20] you only want to refute it. You should [18:22] also assign Bernard Luis Luis's work [18:25] against orientalism which is almost [18:27] never assigned. You can also assign [18:29] occentalism that basically flips the [18:32] argument on its head which is never [18:34] assigned. So really the problem is that [18:37] you have professors that are don't not [18:39] accountable to anyone other than their [18:41] peers who through democratic process let [18:45] these lies spread and really cut away [18:48] anything that might refute them. And so [18:51] you have a slow process of [18:53] indoctrination that is getting worse and [18:55] worse. And of course this is I get into [18:57] this in the book but also if you enter a [19:00] traditional media and social media it [19:02] becomes combustible. Mhm. And just [19:04] briefly, can you clarify for anybody in [19:06] our audience who doesn't know Edward [19:08] Sed's thinking what the orientalism [19:12] thesis was? [19:13] >> Yeah. So Edward say was really I mean [19:16] there's a lot in in orientalism uh but [19:19] really the point he is making is that if [19:22] you are not from the Middle East you [19:25] should not judge the Middle East with a [19:28] caveat. If you are from the Middle East [19:29] but happen to be Jewish then also you [19:31] don't you're not allowed to judge the [19:32] Middle East right but he's basically ma [19:35] looking at Princeton just a few miles [19:37] away from where he was at Columbia [19:39] University and he sees Bernard Louise [19:41] which is one of the most important [19:43] historians of Middle East of Arab [19:46] culture and of Islam but he is a white [19:49] American and for that Edward Sage sees [19:52] this as the uh ultimate sin and he [19:55] basically is able to dismiss every view [19:58] that we as people in the west have on [20:00] people not on the west which of course [20:03] he doesn't say that others can't judge [20:05] the west only the west can't judge [20:07] others now once you take that as the [20:10] premise everything follows from it our [20:13] moral judgments are therefore uh not [20:16] really something that should matter and [20:18] they are relative so the if you split [20:21] the world into oppressor and oppressed [20:23] the moral judgments of people in the [20:24] west saying you know this is good is [20:28] doesn't matter. And if you say this is [20:30] that doesn't matter. All that matters is [20:32] what the actors on the ground, the [20:34] postcolonial actors do. [20:37] And that's completely anti-intellectual, [20:38] of course. Mhm. [20:41] So Isabella, one of the aspects of your [20:44] book that I really appreciate is the [20:46] depth with which you tell and retell the [20:48] history of the Soviet jewelry movement, [20:50] both through the individual stories of [20:52] refusnix and dissident in the USSR and [20:54] also the Soviet jewelry movement to help [20:56] free them. A movement that sparked a [20:59] whole generation of activists, young and [21:01] old, in this country. And I suspect [21:03] there are even many in our audience [21:04] today who are part of Hadasa's outsized [21:07] role in that cause. So your book [21:09] compares today's campus climate for [21:11] Jewish students to the experience of [21:13] refusnix in the Soviet Union. So what [21:16] are the most important parallels that [21:18] you are describing and where do you [21:21] think the comparison doesn't apply so [21:22] well? [21:24] >> Well uh you know I have to say right [21:27] away that uh of course I'm not saying [21:29] that America today is the same as BRV's [21:31] USSR. You know, it's obviously the [21:33] systems are different where it's a [21:34] completely different. We can't compare [21:36] it literally. But what's similar is the [21:40] particular climate that uh Jewish [21:43] students and and Jews increasingly Jews [21:45] as a whole, but in particular young Jews [21:47] in America are experiencing. And that's [21:50] the anti-ionist climate, the anti-ionist [21:53] rhetoric. And the first thing that [21:55] caught my attention, we were talking [21:56] about where it all started for me. First [21:58] thing I noticed is that uh already in [22:01] 2018 2019 the language on campuses [22:04] related to Jews and Zionism repeating [22:07] virtually 100% like it was it was uh [22:11] almost exactly what Soviet propaganda [22:13] had been spreading in the 60s7s and 80s [22:17] equating Zionism with all of humanity's [22:19] ills. You know Zionism is racism, [22:22] Nazism, settler colonialism, [22:23] imperialism, aparate genocide. All of [22:26] that is already in Soviet propaganda [22:28] back then 50 years ago. And so uh once [22:33] you understand that and it's not only [22:35] that, you know, it's not only tropes, [22:36] it's also sort of explanatory logic [22:39] explaining thinking that anything that's [22:42] wrong with the world, always look at [22:44] Israel. It's all everything is Israel's [22:46] fault. Everything is the Zionist fault. [22:49] Zionists are everywhere. They control [22:51] everything. And just like what we're [22:52] seeing recently, right? Zionists are the [22:54] ones who drag America into the war. They [22:57] control the White House. I mean this, [22:59] you know, the the tiny population, 16 [23:01] million Jews basically control that [23:03] superpower. So um you so that creates a [23:08] climate that is surprisingly similar uh [23:12] to kind of emotionally, intellectually [23:14] to what Soviet Jews experienced. Now the [23:17] kind of the range of actions that was [23:19] available to Soviet Jews was different [23:21] from what is available to American [23:23] students. Obviously they still live in a [23:24] free country. But you know what I think [23:27] that before you can take action, [23:30] external action, you actually need to go [23:33] through some internal change. And I [23:35] realized after interviewing young [23:38] student activists in in the United [23:39] States, I realized that interestingly [23:42] enough, there were some internal changes [23:45] that they went through that reminded me [23:47] of the stories of the refusnix and the [23:50] strategies they chose and then [23:52] ultimately the external actions they [23:53] chose uh were in many ways similar as [23:57] well. [23:58] H and I love the way that you pair you [24:01] know a refusnic story and a current [24:04] student or recent student in the United [24:06] States and talk about the similarities [24:08] in terms of methodology and strategy. So [24:11] one of the refusnix that you highlight [24:13] is Marina Ferman whom I actually happen [24:15] to know as a longtime Jewish communal [24:18] professional in Philadelphia where I [24:20] live but she also has a dramatic story [24:22] as a refusnic and a Soviet immigr. So [24:24] share with us a bit of Marina's story. [24:27] So Marina's story is really incredible [24:29] because since you know Marina, you know [24:31] that she is petite, you know, very very [24:35] small kind of you would never think that [24:36] she could threaten anyone and yet this [24:38] this tiny woman managed to threaten the [24:41] entire KGB of the Soviet Union. Um you [24:44] know Marina was born in Kiev and grew up [24:46] in Kiev and experienced really terrible [24:50] things as a Jew. She realized very [24:52] quickly that she didn't want to live [24:53] there. She wanted to immigrate uh but [24:56] but couldn't. She was refused and so you [24:59] know and then and she ends up having to [25:02] move to Georgia which is a different [25:04] part of the Soviet Union at the time. [25:05] She meets her husband there but but [25:07] gradually she finds herself in the [25:09] environment of of Jews who are [25:12] dissident. She realizes that it's not a [25:15] country she wants to live in. Uh that [25:17] it's a country that oppresses uh people [25:20] not only Jews but Jews especially. And [25:22] so she she really um you know she's so [25:26] brave and she's so defiant and she one [25:29] of the actions that she takes uh is on [25:33] um on on that uh freedom Sunday when uh [25:37] two I think 250,000 uh Jews in America [25:40] came to the National Mall to protest for [25:43] uh for Soviet jewelry. And she and her [25:46] husband lived in Lennenrad at the time [25:48] which is today St. Petersburg. And so [25:50] the two of them take their newborn baby [25:52] and they march kind of in solidarity [25:54] with that big march in Washington. And [25:56] of course they immediately arrested and [25:58] and and taken to jail. And but I just [26:01] think about the courage that it took [26:03] incredible courage to just walk out just [26:06] the two of them with their newborn baby [26:08] and walk out into the main square of [26:10] this big city knowing knowing that they [26:13] would be arrested um immediately. And [26:16] there's another part of the story which [26:17] is which relates to Hadasa is when she [26:20] um act a student comes to visit her at [26:24] at some point a student I think from uh [26:27] Brown University I'm not sure but she [26:29] she uh and then she writes an article [26:31] about her for Hadasa and she was so [26:33] impressed with Marina's courage she [26:35] describes how she came and it was uh the [26:37] first days of Hanuka and uh she [26:40] describes how Marina even though they [26:42] were watched all the time by the KGB [26:44] down uh in the street. She made sure to [26:47] put her hanukia out there so that the [26:50] KGB minders would actually see them. So, [26:52] it's like it's courage and defiance [26:54] every step of the way, refusing to back [26:57] down, refusing to cooperate despite [26:59] really terrible things that that uh that [27:02] could happen to them and did happen in [27:03] some in some ways to her. M [27:06] >> and I think if I may, [27:07] >> sorry if I may. I think it also that [27:10] embodies [27:12] how we fight back, how the students on [27:14] campuses fight back and and how what I [27:18] try to present in the book, which is a [27:20] nonviolence [27:22] uh a nonviolent way of fighting back, [27:24] right? She she wasn't out there in the [27:27] streets screaming for the death of the [27:29] Soviet Union, for the death of the [27:31] leaders. she was screaming for or [27:33] standing for something and I think that [27:36] is an important part that's really [27:38] missed uh as our campuses evolved into [27:43] physical and a lot of rhetorical [27:45] violence uh that we don't we never [27:47] responded or tried not to responded that [27:49] way. M so I was going to say I was at [27:52] the march in Washington in 19 I guess it [27:54] was 87 clearly didn't take much courage [27:58] for me to go down except it was a little [27:59] crowded certainly compared to what she [28:02] experienced. [28:03] >> So you take one of those examples that [28:06] Shai is referring to and you cite a [28:09] woman named Alyssa Bernstein from [28:11] accidental college. So tell us how her [28:14] activism was rem reminiscent of [28:16] Marina's. [28:19] Well, she uh Alisa, you know, Alisa also [28:23] she like we were talking earlier how she [28:26] wasn't uh she went to school not really [28:29] thinking that she would need to stand up [28:32] to anything. You know, she thought that [28:34] she would just go to school, do her [28:36] studies, have fun, and that would be it. [28:40] Uh but then I think her actually her [28:43] activism happens even before October 7th [28:45] if I'm not mistaken now. Uh but but some [28:49] things happen and she realizes that she [28:51] has to uh stand up for uh for what's [28:54] true. And you know what's interesting [28:56] here is of course we can't compare the [28:59] KGB uh the threats from the KGB to peer [29:02] pressure. But you know when you're a [29:04] student in uh in college and everybody [29:07] around you just like what Shai was [29:08] saying is against you your professors [29:11] are against you. there is this one-sided [29:13] way in which they present uh the story [29:16] of Israel and and Alisa says that she [29:18] had never actually met anyone especially [29:20] Jews who would be so negative toward [29:22] Israel who would be really so [29:24] aggressively anti-Israel and so she [29:26] gradually begins to notice the hostility [29:29] she begins to notice also the cowardness [29:32] you know of a lot of people around her [29:35] cowardice and so she she realizes it's [29:38] up to her you know and I think this is [29:40] kind of a through line in many of the [29:42] stories in my book uh and I think it's [29:44] both from that era and from today [29:48] ultimately uh when you're in that [29:50] position you realize that it's up to you [29:52] there is nobody you know you're not you [29:54] could sit and wait for the it's very [29:56] popular now to be complaining about [29:58] leaders of uh our established kind of [30:00] organizations but you know what you can [30:02] sit and complain about those leaders [30:04] it's fine there is a lot to criticize [30:06] but also at the same time I think we're [30:08] living in a moment that I call a [30:10] grassroots moment. You know, by the way, [30:12] the Soviet jewelry movement very much [30:14] started with a grassroots movement [30:17] before the establishment joined. Uh it [30:20] was a student movement. So, I think each [30:22] of us needs to understand just like [30:24] Alisa did and just like others in my [30:26] book, you know, it's up to us, you know, [30:29] it's up to us to change at least [30:32] something in our environment. You know, [30:34] try to change whatever your sphere of [30:36] influence is, however small it is. You [30:38] know, it could be just your family. you [30:40] know, it could be it's it could be your [30:42] neighbor. That's enough. Uh but that [30:44] mentality, I think, is really important. [30:49] >> It's interesting you mentioned the [30:51] student initiative with the Soviet jury [30:54] movement. So, in fact, Colombia, which [30:55] of course was ground zero post October [30:58] 7th for anti-Israel incitement, but it [31:00] also has a history of proud Jewish [31:02] activism, right? It was in the [31:04] birthplace of the Soviet jewelry [31:05] movement that started with students and [31:07] also where for example Barry Weiss began [31:09] her writing and political activism. She [31:12] co-produced a 2005 documentary Colombia [31:16] unbecoming about one of the problems [31:18] that shy you focus on the bias in the [31:20] Middle East studies right at the school [31:22] and as you highlight Isabella some of [31:24] the early and consistent Jewish Zionist [31:26] activism even also happened there. So [31:29] Shai how did these two forces play [31:30] themselves out on the campus while you [31:32] were there? Was there any dialogue or [31:34] was it all confrontational that you were [31:36] seeing? [31:39] >> There was a lot of attempts to dialogue [31:42] and if for my understanding almost all [31:46] of them were res responded to if with [31:50] some conflict with some confrontation [31:53] uh or just simply [31:56] utter rejection complete rejection of [31:58] attempted dialogue. And in fact that is [32:00] one of the points of this uh movement. [32:04] One of the tenants of this movement is [32:06] anti-normalization [32:08] which is the idea that if I engage with [32:11] someone who is Israeli or somehow [32:14] supports Israel's existence, I am [32:17] normalizing the existence of the Jewish [32:19] homeland. And by me engaging with that [32:22] person, I've already betrayed our [32:27] movement, our ideology, whatever it is. [32:29] Right? So, and and by the way, and I [32:32] mentioned this in the book, but this [32:34] goes all the way back to the 1967 [32:36] cartoon resolution where the Arab the [32:39] League of Arab Nations all said the [32:42] three nos, right? No negotiations with [32:45] Israel, no recognition, no peace, right? [32:48] So there was a lot of tempt and I and [32:52] and one of the things that really pained [32:54] me not as an Israeli and not as a Jew [32:56] but as a professor as someone who [32:59] believes in the truth and in the values [33:01] of enlightenment is that there was [33:03] rejection of conversation and rejection [33:05] of discussion because typically what [33:09] happens is that the side saying I don't [33:11] want to hear anything is the side that [33:13] knows that they are wrong. [33:16] Unfortunately, that was also the side [33:18] that was for all intents and purposes in [33:21] on control on campus. So there was [33:24] really no ability to engage with that [33:26] side and say let's find the middle [33:29] ground. Let's agree on some basic [33:31] principles and even that was too much. [33:35] >> So Isabelle, you make an important point [33:37] in your book also about the distinction [33:41] between the human rights connection with [33:43] the Soviet jury movement, right? there [33:45] was a there was a love affair there. You [33:46] have a quote that there's a there was a [33:48] real love affair between the human [33:50] rights movement and our cause, speaking [33:52] of the the Soviet jury movement. But yet [33:55] here in the west, you write there's a [33:57] love affair between the language of [33:58] human rights and the anti-semite. So So [34:01] is this all because of the trends that [34:04] you're talking about the inculcating the [34:07] culture with the, you know, the [34:08] anti-Israel bias? Is is that the sole [34:12] reason for this or is there something [34:13] more? [34:15] Well, I think it's bigger than that and [34:17] I I want to clarify that this is [34:19] actually the this is from Natasha's [34:21] forward to my book. So, this is this is [34:23] his idea. Um, I think, look, I think [34:26] that the [34:28] uh the bigger part here is that the the [34:32] the anti-Israel propaganda and [34:35] sentiments are connected deeply to [34:37] anti-western and anti-American [34:40] propaganda and sentiments that began to [34:42] be cultivated again already in the 60s [34:44] and 70s. The Soviet Union played a huge [34:46] part of it. the UN played a huge part of [34:48] it with and and it was very much under [34:50] the influence of the Soviet uh communist [34:53] and then also postcolonial block. um you [34:57] know the the kind of the putting on its [35:00] head of what human rights are about. The [35:03] kind of the turning of the tables with [35:05] when uh the communist block together [35:07] with the third world block as it was [35:09] called then suggesting that really the [35:12] worst violators of human rights are the [35:14] west and the United States. And that [35:16] idea began to be inculcated on the left [35:19] including among people who became [35:21] academics and journalists and [35:23] intellectuals. the idea that it's [35:26] America that's really the be the the [35:27] worst uh violator of of everything, [35:30] right? And so and gradually sort of this [35:32] creed forms where if you want to be kind [35:35] of a card carrying member of the left, [35:38] doesn't matter which kind of, you know, [35:39] the left is very diverse, but let's say [35:42] progressive, right? uh if you want to be [35:45] card carrying progressive and certainly [35:48] socialist or communist or or further to [35:50] the left then you must be uh against the [35:54] United States, American imperialism, the [35:56] west uh against capitalism and also [35:58] against Zionism. So all of this gets [36:01] fused together already in the 60s and [36:04] 70s and 80s and because there hasn't [36:07] been you know since the end of the cold [36:09] war we have sort of forgotten to offer [36:12] um to to retell our part of the story. [36:15] So I think young people today are used [36:17] to this idea that the west is at fault [36:19] for everything without realizing [36:22] something that's very clear to me. [36:23] Someone who came from behind the iron [36:25] curtain to the west, right? Just just [36:28] kind of what a major victory for freedom [36:31] America won at the end of the cold war. [36:34] We have forgotten to make this case. And [36:36] I think it's really important to for [36:38] it's it's one of the elements that we [36:39] need to do. We need to remind ourselves [36:42] what is it that we're so proud of? What [36:45] is it that this country stands for [36:46] that's so important and powerful and and [36:50] really that that America stands for good [36:52] in the world? [36:54] >> So, neither of you are on campus now, [36:56] but I assume you're still keeping an eye [36:58] on on what's going on. So, do you have [37:00] thoughts about what students can expect [37:02] this year as the semester moves into [37:05] high gear? [37:08] >> Uh, I have a lot of thoughts, but I [37:10] would I would say one thing. Uh we have [37:13] to separate everything into the visible [37:16] fight and the invisible fight. Um the [37:19] visible fight is the fight that we saw [37:21] really erupt on campuses post October 7. [37:26] And that's the the protests, the [37:28] teachings, the dyins, the encampments, [37:30] the violent building takeovers and all [37:33] those other things. And those things [37:35] have to be pushed back, pointed at and [37:38] mostly from the administration side, [37:41] right? So we have to hold the [37:42] administrators accountable for enforcing [37:45] the laws, making sure that not just [37:47] Jews, but everyone on campus feels safe, [37:51] can go and study whatever they want and [37:53] express their full selves. But that's [37:56] the visible fight. And the visible [37:57] fights happens in waves, right? It it [38:01] happened in a wave after October 7. [38:03] We've seen it in the 2021 and we've seen [38:06] it in the 2014 war. And unfortunately, [38:10] unless something happens in the future, [38:13] we will see it again when things heat up [38:15] in the Middle East again. The invisible [38:18] fight is the one that I am actually more [38:21] worried about and what I want everyone [38:24] to prepare their kids and their [38:26] grandkids for. And that invisible fight [38:29] is a fight over ideas and a fight over [38:31] the truth where the students need to [38:34] know that they will be [38:37] at least um exposed if not attempted to [38:41] be indoctrinated by these anti-Jewish [38:45] and anti-Israeli and anti-American [38:47] ideas. The problem is that we send a lot [38:50] of our kids to this fight unarmed and [38:53] unprepared. We basically put them on [38:56] campus in college. We we drive off when [38:58] they're 18 and we say, "Good luck. [39:01] You've learned math. You've learned your [39:02] English. You've scored great SATs. [39:05] You've got a incredible essay and you're [39:08] in and you deserve it." But now we've [39:11] basically left them as sheep surrounded [39:13] by wolves without giving them the [39:15] education about who they are, where they [39:18] came from, what is the Jewish people, [39:21] what has the Jewish people overcome, [39:23] what were the reasons for the state of [39:25] Israel, what has Israel done, the good [39:27] and the bad, right? We have to remember [39:29] the bad as well and teach them about [39:31] that. And what has the West, like [39:33] Isabella said, what is the West have [39:35] done? How is it made mistakes and what [39:38] did it learn from it? Unless we give [39:40] them that information, that knowledge [39:42] and the knowledge on how to stand up for [39:44] themselves, [39:46] we're really sending them off to fight [39:48] an invisible fight with no tools. So I [39:52] what I push people is to not ask where [39:54] will my kids be safest, but rather how [39:58] how will I prepare my kids to be safest [40:01] wherever they go. [40:04] So I few Oh, go ahead. [40:07] >> No, no, you go ahead. Go ahead. [40:08] >> I was just going to say I want to get in [40:10] a few minutes to some of the tas of how [40:13] we accomplish that because you know what [40:15] I hear is more education, which is what [40:19] people have been saying for a really [40:21] long time and somewhat successfully and [40:23] mostly not so successfully. And then [40:25] maybe we're at this like critical moment [40:28] that maybe people will take it a little [40:29] bit more seriously. But it is it is [40:31] definitely a question. But to the point [40:33] about, you know, where do I send my [40:35] kids? We have a question from the [40:36] audience. What do you think of the [40:38] debate about giving up on universities [40:40] that seem unfriendly to Jewish students? [40:42] For instance, Colombia in favor of [40:44] schools that seem actively willing to [40:46] support and defend Jewish students. Do [40:47] you think it's important that Jewish [40:49] students remain at universities like [40:51] Colombia so they can defend their rights [40:52] or should they make a break from them? [40:55] Well, I think that if we if we remove [40:57] all Jewish students from the places that [40:59] are inhospitable to Jews, they will get [41:02] worse, right? If they think about how [41:05] bad they are right now, now imagine how [41:07] bad they were if Jews weren't on the [41:09] ground, fighting back and just modeling [41:12] what being a good, kind, compassionate [41:15] Jew is. I think we should, first of all, [41:18] your kids and your grandkids deserve to [41:20] go wherever they want and wherever [41:22] they're able to. They are working really [41:24] hard throughout high school. They [41:26] deserve to go wherever they can, but [41:30] they should go also where they can feel [41:33] that they can have the most impact. If [41:35] they go to a school like Colombia and [41:37] Harvard, they should be prepared not to [41:39] hide their to duck down and hide their [41:42] heads when something happens, but [41:44] actually to stand up and articulate why [41:46] it's wrong. But if they go to a school [41:48] that's hospitable for Jews, they should [41:51] go and organize to keep it that way. [41:54] Right? Hada wasn't just created to fight [41:57] against. It's to fight for. And a lot of [42:01] times we Jews are are very comfortable [42:03] when things are good. So we don't fight [42:06] for. And only when things are bad, we [42:08] wake up and we fight against. And I [42:10] think we all need to have some sort of [42:13] basic level of representing ourselves, [42:16] our people, and our state both against [42:20] the bad, but also to create more good. [42:25] >> Well, and and I'll I'll add to that uh [42:27] because I don't think that everybody is [42:29] necessarily made to be an activist. And [42:32] so I will say something that may seem a [42:34] little bit contradictory, but I think [42:37] not every Jewish students wants to be [42:40] marching or standing up for their [42:41] identity. Not everybody is capable. And [42:44] I don't even think that everybody needs [42:45] to, you know, as I I often say that uh [42:48] everybody doesn't need to be a Natanchi [42:50] and everybody doesn't even can't be [42:53] doesn't even need to be an [42:54] Natancheransky, you know. Or to take a [42:55] contemporary example, not everybody can [42:58] be a Shabos Kestanbomb who is one of my [43:00] um one of the people I profile in my [43:02] book. And everybody doesn't need to be [43:05] you know they if you look at the Soviet [43:07] jury movement or or actually if you look [43:08] at the refusnic movement uh inside the [43:11] Soviet Union you know there were maybe I [43:14] would say there were a few people who [43:16] were like Sheransky who were public [43:18] symbols and really sacrificed a lot [43:20] really found themselves in prison right [43:22] in the name of their cause but then then [43:25] there was maybe a a kind of a nucleus of [43:27] a few hund maybe let's say a couple [43:28] hundred people who supported them and [43:30] were known to the authorities and then [43:32] there was an unknown number of people [43:34] who were, you know, maybe all they did [43:36] was quietly deliver dissident literature [43:39] from point A to point B in their [43:41] backpack and maybe all they did was, you [43:44] know, is in their kitchen tell their [43:47] children who came from school and said, [43:49] you know what, what they told you about [43:50] Israel being an aggressor or committing [43:52] genocide, that's just not true. I think [43:54] there are different ways to to make a [43:57] difference and there are different ways [43:58] to approach it. I think that it's really [44:00] important that internally, you know, [44:02] students, especially the ones who go to [44:04] the Ivy Leagues, and I completely agree [44:06] with with Shai, you know, they want to [44:08] go there, they should go there. But I [44:10] think it's actually even more important [44:12] what's going on on the inside, whether [44:14] on the inside they recognize that who [44:17] they are, what their values are, and [44:19] don't let this attack change that. [44:23] And and if I could add um you know I [44:26] don't like revisionist history but I [44:28] don't know if Natan Sheransky could have [44:30] become Natan Sheronsky if not for also a [44:33] Vital Sheronsky right and things about [44:37] being and I personally could not have [44:39] done any of what I have done without my [44:41] wife Yordan Greenspan and a lot of the [44:44] times when people I meet a lot of [44:46] parents and grandparents and they ask me [44:48] what can my what can my uh kid do in [44:51] college I tell them what we just said [44:54] and different ways of being an activist [44:55] and write in the student newspaper and [44:57] all of that, but I also tell them that [45:00] you also have to model for them what it [45:03] means to be an activist and to have [45:05] their back if something happens because [45:08] they might be in over their head or feel [45:10] that they're in over their head. And [45:12] that is where the adults need to come in [45:15] and help them. Not take over for them, [45:18] but say, "I am fighting this with you. [45:21] you need to make sure that you're [45:22] fighting in the right values and [45:23] everything, but I am here for you. And I [45:26] think that is an important thing for [45:27] every Jewish and ally, but every Jewish [45:30] kid on campus to understand and hear. [45:33] >> Absolutely. [45:34] >> Speaking of advice, do you have any [45:36] advice to students who may be in classes [45:41] where professors are creating [45:42] uncomfortable environments, how to speak [45:44] to these professors? Shai, did you ever [45:47] see any examples of that? I mean I [45:49] assume there were some colleagues at [45:50] Colombia who were who were with you even [45:52] if they weren't necessarily as public. [45:55] >> So first my first advice is um record [45:58] everything keep a paper trail because as [46:01] I've seen in the past 3 years unless [46:04] it's not documented it's very easy to [46:06] say it didn't happen. Now some states [46:08] have a one-side consent you know one [46:10] side consent. So in New York State I [46:12] don't need to ask or tell anyone I'm [46:14] recording. others have a different uh so [46:16] you want to make sure that you're within [46:18] the law the the rules of wherever you [46:20] are now in addition to that I would say [46:23] always come with grace and the idea that [46:26] there is a misunderstanding give your [46:28] professor a chance maybe your professor [46:31] is as indoctrinated [46:34] as these students marching on the street [46:37] and maybe they don't understand that [46:39] what they said is [46:42] hurtful hateful full ignorant or or [46:45] whatever. So I would also always do [46:48] that. But also as you give your [46:51] professor a second chance and you [46:53] explain yourself to them, if they then [46:56] re reject your viewpoint altogether, I [47:00] would say that's when you escalate. So [47:02] you slowly go through the administrative [47:04] processes. I think that is extremely [47:06] important. But at the same time, nothing [47:09] stops you from writing an op-ed for the [47:11] student newspaper. Nothing stops you [47:13] from organizing an event on campus, [47:16] refuting that professor's lies and [47:19] ignorance. Nothing is stopping you from [47:21] organizing your own book club or journal [47:24] club on campus, Jews and non-Jews, and [47:27] showing people that there's a another [47:29] side to the story, right? So the the [47:33] only thing that you shouldn't do is duck [47:36] your head and say, you know, after this [47:39] I end this class and I won't see this [47:40] professor ever again because that's [47:42] exactly how this hatred and this [47:44] ideology keeps uh becoming so persistent [47:47] wherever we go. M [47:49] >> you know I want to add something and [47:51] focus on something that uh shai said [47:53] which I think is really important which [47:54] is I think it's really important that [47:56] students find people uh who will listen [48:01] to them. It's like yes there is that [48:03] policy of among the radicals there is a [48:05] policy of non-engagement and non non [48:08] non normalization [48:11] uh but and you know and we focus so much [48:13] on them on the on the real radical [48:16] anti-ionist anti-Israel activists you [48:19] know I think it's just as important for [48:21] us to be recognizing that there are [48:23] actually a lot of people who are not so [48:26] convinced who are actually willing to [48:28] engage with us and are willing to be [48:31] persuaded and I think it's really [48:33] important that we find people like that [48:34] and talk to them because not everybody [48:37] can persuade somebody who is already [48:39] convinced so much that you know that [48:41] they they won't change their opinion but [48:43] speaking to people who who are genuinely [48:47] in good faith want to understand I think [48:50] it's really it's very important to find [48:52] people like that and you know finding [48:54] finding them I actually have a chapter [48:57] in in my book where I discuss this you [48:59] know find basically find Find people of [49:01] your own tribe. You know, make yourself [49:03] known so that these people find you. You [49:06] find them or make yourself known so that [49:07] they find you. Whether it's through a [49:09] book club or some other activity and [49:11] then you will find that you're not [49:13] alone. [49:15] And I think it certainly has been [49:17] documented that there's a huge middle [49:20] ground particularly of Jewish students, [49:22] right, who, you know, they don't really [49:25] know or understand or even care all that [49:27] much and it's better to be able to reach [49:30] out to them that they may be they may be [49:33] susceptible to to uh education and [49:36] understanding. So kind of to that point, [49:39] one of another question is the JVP [49:41] crowd, the Jewish voice for peace crowd [49:43] is very challenging. How can we handle [49:44] this issue? Shay, I think you address [49:47] that question. [49:49] >> When I was writing uh when I was writing [49:51] my book, I had a very big problem of how [49:54] how do I talk about anti-Zionist Jews? [49:57] Um, and at first I didn't want to talk [50:00] about them at all because we know that [50:02] they are a tiny percentage of the Jewish [50:05] world population. We know that they get [50:08] so much attention for all the noise that [50:10] they do without much substance. And I [50:14] thought that maybe I can just put them [50:16] aside. But then I realized that because [50:19] I'm writing about this very alluring [50:22] ideology, [50:24] I have to discuss the fact that it's so [50:27] alluring that it also is taken up by [50:31] some Jews. So I go in the book into [50:34] detail about the psychology of what [50:36] could lead uh Jews to become [50:39] anti-Zionist Jews. basically go against [50:41] their own people as a people. And I talk [50:44] about the history of how anti-Zionist [50:47] Zionist Jews have never s succeeded from [50:50] the Henistic Jews, Hellenistic Jews in [50:53] the uh first century, the Ysectia [50:56] obviously, the um the anti-inist Jews in [50:59] Iraq and in um and in Tunisia, in Egypt, [51:03] and how and the Boon of course and how [51:05] it never succeeds. [51:08] The truth is that our way of dealing [51:11] with them is not giving them attention. [51:13] When we are on campus, we shouldn't be [51:16] focusing on those very very few [51:19] anti-Zionist Jews making a lot of noise, [51:21] but we should be focusing on the very [51:23] very many quiet people who are listening [51:26] to their noise and in order to make sure [51:29] that they hear a real representative [51:33] uh side of the Jewish story history. So [51:37] past, present and also what we see for [51:40] the future. Uh which is very different [51:42] from anti-ionist Jews. I think that's [51:43] where we diverge the most. Mhm. [51:46] >> Well, and I want to add because this is [51:48] something that in fact happened on the [51:49] Colombia campus, which it's in the very [51:51] first chapter of my book, the the when I [51:55] describe how Colombia University [51:57] students, I interviewed Lysicia Baker [51:58] from Colombia. And so, he describes how [52:02] they were protesting and how they [52:03] gradually developed their tactics and [52:05] and what they thought worked, what they [52:07] what didn't work. And then eventually [52:09] they write a letter called in our name [52:13] uh which goes viral and they it was [52:15] signed by hundreds of students at [52:17] Colombia who all say look you're all [52:20] focusing on the few token Jews antionist [52:23] Jews who are telling you something that [52:26] actually most Jewish people don't share. [52:28] So let us tell you what we think and how [52:31] we think about it. And again the letter [52:33] went viral. It was covered by the New [52:35] York Times. So there was passion. there [52:37] was real, you know, there was real [52:38] feeling and conviction in it. And so I [52:40] think we when we think about, you know, [52:43] as when when Jewish students think about [52:45] how can they break through the noise, [52:47] you know, this is one of the ways to do [52:49] it to be authentic and to really say uh [52:53] what's important to you and it it's not [52:55] easy to break through through noise, but [52:57] you can uh and and there are examples. [53:01] >> So I want to end with two questions for [53:03] each of you. One is again you really [53:06] address solutions. You have ideas shy. [53:10] You have a movement that you're really [53:11] trying to to build here. Heni talk about [53:14] what it is that the message is beyond [53:17] what you've already articulated which [53:18] some of it I think you both have already [53:21] in terms of what what needs to happen [53:24] for the future. [53:26] I would really really like that at the [53:29] end of my book after reading everything [53:32] and people have all the knowledge of [53:34] what is happening how we got to this [53:37] point I would like people to understand [53:39] that no one is coming to save us [53:42] and I think that is a very very scary [53:46] understanding [53:47] but then when you internalize it [53:50] actually it's very liberating because [53:53] this is a problem that can't be solved [53:55] by one large Jewish organization or by [53:59] one politician or by one lawsuit. It [54:02] really does require all of us to take [54:06] stock of what's happening around us and [54:09] activating ourselves. So I start the [54:13] book by my, let's say, viral moment of [54:16] activism, the video that went viral and [54:18] and started everything. But I end the [54:21] book with my basic understanding of what [54:24] it is to be an activist for me. And I've [54:27] really boiled it down to being an [54:29] activist is asking three questions which [54:32] is first is saying there is a problem. I [54:36] recognize that there is a problem. Do I [54:39] do I understand the problem? So that's [54:41] where I write the book that understand [54:43] the problem. Second is the idea [54:45] understanding that something needs to be [54:47] done. Right? So, can something be done [54:49] about this problem? And that's where [54:51] most people stop. They say there's a [54:53] problem and something needs to be done. [54:56] What I'm hoping that people will come [54:58] out with this book is the third point, [55:01] which is there's a problem, something [55:03] needs to be done, why not me? [55:07] Because the moment you ask yourself, [55:09] wait, why can't I be doing these things? [55:12] and you demystify what being an activist [55:14] is. And it's not devoting your entire [55:17] college career to it. It's not devoting [55:20] you quitting your job like I did. It's [55:22] the small everyday acts of activism. [55:25] It's attending [55:27] uh webinars like this and then telling [55:30] someone else about it rather than just [55:32] like keeping the knowledge to yourself. [55:33] To me, that's activism. That's going [55:36] above and beyond seeing a problem and [55:38] not waiting for someone else to solve [55:40] it. So that's my hope [55:43] >> and Isabella that's be a refusnic that's [55:46] the title of your book. What more do you [55:48] have to add to that in your view? Well, [55:52] I think what I would add is uh look, one [55:55] of the reasons I wrote this book is I [55:58] realized after October 7th, that's when [56:00] I really started writing it, that we [56:04] actually have a shortage in our [56:06] collective memory of Jewish heroes, of [56:10] heroic stories. Now, Israelis have the [56:12] Israelis don't have this problem. [56:14] Israelis have heroes, you know, every [56:16] day they have heroes. Uh I think in [56:18] America uh I I will often speak to [56:21] audiences and I would ask them who are [56:23] the Jewish heroes that you can name and [56:25] they will often say you know the Mcabes [56:27] and then they will say the heroes of the [56:29] Warso ghetto uprising and that's really [56:31] where it ends and I wrote my book to [56:35] give people examples of Jewish heroism [56:38] because I Jewish heroism and defiance [56:41] and reclaiming and kind of the the [56:43] courage of being a dissident uh in in [56:46] the environments in kind of environments [56:47] that we live in. And I think it's really [56:49] important. I want people to have these [56:52] models. And there's one more thing I [56:54] want to say if we have a moment. Um I [56:56] think I want them to realize and this [56:58] also comes from the Soviet Jewish [56:59] experience that you know as much as this [57:02] rhetoric, the anti-ionist rhetoric that [57:04] we're hearing today, as much as it's [57:06] directed at Israel ostensibly, right, [57:09] and at Zionists, whatever that word even [57:12] means anymore, it's been so redefined. [57:15] Um, but really the target is all of us [57:19] as Jews and the target is really our [57:21] Jewish identity. And so what I want [57:25] young Jews to understand is they will [57:27] tell you slice off, you know, this piece [57:30] of your identity and that piece of your [57:32] identity. Give up your Zionism, give up [57:34] your attachment to Israel and then we [57:36] will love you and then we will embrace [57:38] you and then you can be can be one of [57:40] us. That is a trap. uh you will only end [57:44] up living in a world of double think. [57:46] That's Sheransky's and Orwell's phrase. [57:49] Don't fall for it. I think the answer [57:51] really is to be reclaiming every bit of [57:53] your Jewish identity and more. [57:57] >> So maybe we can end on a note of a [58:01] little hope. [58:02] Looking ahead maybe 10 years from now [58:05] with a little bit of hope. What would [58:07] success look like and do we think it's [58:10] possible? [58:12] Shai [58:15] >> uh success for me uh would be that every [58:18] Jewish person anywhere can be their full [58:21] selves wherever they want and feel safe [58:25] being that. So, building on Isabella's [58:28] point, bringing your entire identity and [58:31] being a Zionist and is part of my [58:34] identity. Just like being a father is [58:37] part of my identity. And just as I would [58:39] never want to hide the fact that I have [58:42] children, I would never want to hide the [58:44] fact that I am a Zionist. And if I if [58:48] there's a a room, a campus, a downtown, [58:52] a city, a state where I don't feel [58:54] comfortable saying that, being myself, [58:58] to me, that is something that is [59:00] unacceptable. So 10 years from now, I'm [59:02] hoping that we're able only through this [59:05] reclaiming and normalizing it, be who we [59:08] are. And by the way, not just Jews. [59:10] Everyone should feel comfortable being [59:12] who they are as long as it doesn't come [59:15] at someone else's expense. [59:18] >> And and and I will say I'm going to make [59:20] it uh very specific. If in 10 years [59:24] every young American Jew knows at least [59:28] some Hebrew, I would say we're moving in [59:30] the right direction. [59:33] >> I love that. [59:35] >> That's a great note to end on with a [59:37] little hope. perhaps realistic or not, [59:40] we'll we'll say we'll hope [59:43] very important um and inspiring [59:46] conversation despite its sobering [59:48] aspects in terms of the examples that [59:50] you bring and the heroes that are out [59:52] there. So, I thank you for that. And [59:55] before we say goodbye, I want to remind [59:57] everyone that this event and all of our [59:59] programs are available as podcast [60:01] episodes. Search Hadasa Magazine [60:03] Presents wherever you get your podcast. [60:05] And be sure to rate it and leave a [60:07] review so you can help us boost our [60:08] audience. And be sure to look out for [60:10] our upcoming Hadasa Magazine presents [60:13] conversation with Dara Horn, author of [60:15] the new book, The Final Solution to the [60:17] Jewish Question: A Love Story for the [60:18] Living at the end of October. And at the [60:21] end of November, I will be back at the [60:23] Miami Book Fair recording a podcast [60:25] episode with two leading Israeli [60:27] authors, Noah Yedlin and Zariah Shalev, [60:30] who have new books coming out. For those [60:32] of you in the Miami area who might be [60:34] listening, come and join us in person on [60:36] Sunday, November 22nd. and save the date [60:39] of December 17th for our next virtual [60:42] program which will focus on the southern [60:44] Jewish experience with Nicholas Leman [60:46] whose new book Returning has met [60:48] critical acclaim and with Sheri Rabin [60:51] whose book The Jewish South was a [60:52] National Jewish Book Award finalist. Be [60:55] sure to follow Hadasa Magazine Presents [60:57] on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get [60:59] your podcast so you'll get notifications [61:00] when new episodes drop or go to [61:03] hada.org/mpodcast [61:05] to sign up for alerts. Lastly, I want to [61:07] share with you that we are running our [61:10] annual Hadasa Magazine plus J Girls Plus [61:13] teen essay contest. It's currently [61:16] underway and we're inviting [61:17] self-identifying Jewish girls or young [61:19] women to write about an experience of [61:21] intergenerational Jewish joy. So, if you [61:24] have a child or a grandchild, [61:26] please encourage her to enter. The [61:28] winner will receive a $350 educational [61:31] scholarship and will be published in [61:32] Hadasa Magazine and J Girls Plus. The [61:35] deadline to submit is October 14th. I [61:38] want to thank Ariel Kaplan, the [61:39] magazine's digital editor, who both [61:41] produced and promoted this program and [61:43] also produces the podcast, and Leia [61:45] Finkelstein, our senior and book editor, [61:47] who helped plan and implement the [61:48] program. And a shout out as always to [61:50] our partners in ADAS's membership [61:52] outreach and engagement and marketing [61:54] and communication divisions who always [61:56] play important roles in these events. [61:58] Thanks again, Isabella and Shai. Such a [62:00] pleasure to talk with you both today. [62:02] And here's another call to buy their [62:04] books. [62:05] >> Thank you so much. It's been really it's [62:07] been a pleasure. [62:08] >> Thank you so so much. [62:11] >> Shatva and thanks to all of you for [62:13] joining us. I wish everyone a healthy [62:15] and sweet new year, a meaningful yum [62:17] kipur and a garumar katima. Until next [62:20] time, goodbye.
