Transcript [00:00] Raki Baba he says to his son it's not [00:02] how hard you hit it's now how hard you [00:04] get hit and keep moving forward [00:06] >> and that is the let's say the mukawa the [00:09] resistance way to see how you fight cuz [00:12] they say look the Israeli and American [00:16] technology is much powerful than ours [00:18] >> but we're standing they're drowning [00:22] >> we're it doesn't matter what happened we [00:24] will fix it don't worry [00:25] >> that's also part of the narrative the [00:27] Shia narrative as Well, [00:30] [music] [00:34] in the Middle East, just like everywhere [00:35] else in the world, they use different [00:37] methods in order to deliver messages [00:39] other than news articles. Those methods [00:42] can include also cartoons or political [00:44] cartoons or different other ways in [00:47] order to deliver those messages. [00:50] And to talk about this, I have with me [00:52] here in studio Nam Bennett, uh, Middle [00:55] East researcher, an expert on [00:57] kicaturators or political cartoons, and [01:00] also the host of Uskut podcast. Hello, [01:03] Nom. [01:04] >> Hello, Bel. How are you? [01:05] >> I'm good. Um, and um, it's just uh, very [01:09] interesting that you choose the word us [01:12] for your podcast. Let's talk about this [01:13] first. [01:15] >> This is a word in Arabic that means be [01:17] silent. [01:18] >> Be silent or even shut up. Yeah. Um, a [01:20] good friend, [01:21] >> I didn't want to say the other word. [01:23] >> Um, so a good friend of mine, Asafin, [01:26] uh, told me, you know, you should word, [01:27] you should use a word that every Israeli [01:30] knows. He they heard it somewhere. Uh, [01:33] and I I thought to myself, that's not a [01:35] polite word to use. But after I looked [01:38] the way that you write us, is that [01:41] you're telling someone to be quiet, to [01:43] be silenced. [01:44] >> So the letters are, let's say it in [01:46] Hebrew, [01:49] which is almost the same letters as [01:51] podcast. [01:53] >> So from that point I was like okay [01:56] >> that's the word that's the name of the [01:58] podcast and as a joke after like a [02:01] couple of episodes I I understood that I [02:03] asked the questions and every uh expert [02:06] is talking much more than I am. So I am [02:09] in a way shutting up. [02:10] >> Okay. Now we are actually you know [02:12] switching your face. that [02:14] [clears throat] we want you to talk [02:15] today and it's interesting that you have [02:16] chosen this caricaturur world or the [02:19] political cartoon as it said how do you [02:22] land on this and [02:24] uh can you tell how this actually you [02:27] know delivers the messages other than [02:30] how the news articles do that so first [02:33] of all you need to understand that [02:35] during the years that I researched that [02:37] I understand that it's a language by [02:39] itself what does that mean it means that [02:42] um they use uh things from the culture. [02:44] They use things from the religion, Islam [02:46] mostly. Um, you can see for example, I [02:49] remember when they there's a Palestinian [02:52] caricature, they tried to show how the [02:55] Arab world uh abandoned the [02:57] Palestinians. So they saw we saw a well [03:00] with wolves and it was like [03:03] if you knew the story of the Quran, you [03:06] know the story of Joseph. You said, [03:09] >> so you just understood it in a second. [03:10] Of course, there was the symbols of [03:13] Palestinians like like the Kufay and [03:15] others. So, there are things that are [03:17] much deeper and the interesting thing [03:20] you said in your intro that when you see [03:23] one political cartoon, you can get the [03:26] idea in a second. It's like you don't [03:29] need to read the whole article of the [03:31] thousand words. You just get the idea in [03:33] a second. And this is like very [03:34] interesting because when you look at [03:36] cartoons and we have, you know, an [03:37] example that you sent me from yesterday, [03:40] it just seems like, you know, that's [03:42] something that's outdated. Like you [03:44] wouldn't think like in the 70s or 80s [03:47] that people would be still using [03:49] cartoons until today. You know, I I [03:52] understand how you say, but I think that [03:54] in the modern world, you know, every [03:56] everyone has a phone. Like I can see [03:58] your phone from here. And when you you [04:01] have your phone, you don't need to watch [04:03] the news anymore, right? You can get the [04:05] notifications on your specific uh thing, [04:09] you know, your specific team that you [04:12] fan, the specific um uh subjects that [04:16] you like. And you don't need to listen [04:18] to other stuff. You just have that. And [04:20] the same thing, you can see the [04:22] political cartoons. You can just see the [04:25] uh cartoon at that moment. you can get [04:28] your story and we can you can see this [04:32] political cartoon maybe we'll we'll talk [04:34] about it for a second. [04:35] >> Yes. And how do you write how do you [04:37] read it? Excuse me. The symbols the [04:39] recurring you know factors the things [04:41] that um you should you know focus on [04:44] maybe animals that they have been you [04:46] know the main focus many times in many [04:48] cartoons. How do you read it actually? [04:51] So you need to understand that when you [04:54] uh use uh symbols first of all you need [04:57] to ask what is your expertise. My [04:59] expertise was always middle eastern [05:01] studies [05:02] >> that's what I learned when you learn [05:04] Arabic when you learn um about the [05:07] history about religions of course Islam [05:09] mainly. So you started to notice through [05:12] the caricatures you can see the um the [05:16] symbols that they use. If it's animals, [05:19] if it's the kafia, if it's for example, [05:23] a very very famous symbol which is the I [05:25] like to say for Israelis the the [05:27] Palestinian sulik [05:30] >> uh which is not exactly the same but as [05:32] an idea um of course the olive tree, the [05:36] roots. So every part of the uh political [05:40] cartoon is saying much more than just [05:42] roots. [05:43] >> So let's take a look at this for example [05:45] when you take a look at this and this is [05:47] of course from the context of the war [05:50] with Iran. What do we see here exactly? [05:52] >> So first of all we see Uncle Sam [05:55] >> Uncle Sam a symbol of the United States [05:57] of America. He's in the swamp which is [05:59] uh Iran and you see someone who is [06:02] encouraging him. First of all, he's [06:04] little and he's bamo, the Israeli prime [06:07] minister. [06:08] >> So you understand that the reason that [06:11] Uncle Sam that the United States of [06:12] America is stuck in Iran is Israel. [06:16] >> And that's like stuck because of the way [06:19] um Uncle Sam is now, you know, drowning. [06:22] Exactly. [06:22] >> In the sand or the swamp, [06:24] >> whatever exactly that is, you know, in a [06:27] red um uh color which is Iran. [06:31] >> Exactly. Um I think the the idea here I [06:35] just want to mention sometimes when you [06:37] see someone you think about the person [06:39] for example Netanyahu but Netanyahu [06:42] isn't most of the times uh simplifying [06:44] himself Netanyahu is Israel [06:47] [clears throat] [06:47] >> for example when um Nali Bennett became [06:50] prime minister I saw a fascinating uh [06:53] political cartoon that you see two shoes [06:56] another big symbol in the Arab world uh [06:59] a shoe And you see a new shoe shining [07:04] looks like Nali Bennett. I need you to [07:06] understand Nali Bennett of course is [07:08] bold. So it's really shining and looks [07:11] new. And the old shoe looks like Vin [07:13] Netanya. [07:14] >> And in the beginning I thought okay they [07:16] want to show that there's the old prime [07:17] minister. He was I think 12 years in a [07:20] row. If you wear the same shoe for 12 [07:22] years probably would look like that and [07:25] the shining new. [07:26] >> But then I thought no it's much more [07:27] than that much deeper than that. We [07:30] don't really care. Mm. I think the [07:33] cartoonist is Mahmud Abbas, [07:35] >> not Abu Maza. His idea is he's he's old, [07:38] he's new, but both of them are shoes. [07:41] >> Exactly. So, let's take a look at one [07:43] more. This is also interesting. [07:46] >> Yeah. This is a cartoon um that tells us [07:48] what's happening now in Lebanon. We can [07:51] see the Israeli soldier or the Israeli [07:53] hand, but you understand that it's [07:54] Israeli soldier is shooting towardsah, [07:58] >> right? So you think you will think okay [08:01] um we know that Israel is very very [08:03] careful how they they bomb uh places in [08:06] the window and making sure that every uh [08:10] only there's no casualties. Of course it [08:12] can happen but they're trying but this [08:15] caricature is not saying that story. We [08:17] see a Lebanese citizen his handscuffed [08:22] his eyes covered and he's stuck in the [08:24] middle. [08:25] >> Mhm. And we now learn how they see the [08:28] war. They see the war that Israel is [08:30] trying maybe maybe to fight in their [08:32] perspective. [08:33] >> Even without this badge here that says [08:36] Lebanon, of course, in Arabic through [08:38] the tarbush here on his head, we can [08:40] understand that he's Lebanese. [08:42] >> Exactly. I mean, some say will say it's [08:44] the uh an Ottoman Empire symbol, but [08:46] mostly it goes to Lebanon. [08:48] >> This is a bit, you know, um spicy. spicy [08:52] may some say disturbing. This is um [08:56] dissident Iranian dissident who lives in [08:59] France um if I remember correctly man [09:04] um and he's talking about the Ayat Ali [09:07] the former supreme leader of Iran's [09:10] funeral and we can see what he thinks [09:13] about uh himself and the people that are [09:16] walking [09:18] >> uh his supporters. [09:19] >> Exactly. his supporters. [09:20] >> Exactly. So we see here that's not [09:23] really a political cartoon. It's like a [09:26] digital poster I think will be the right [09:28] thing to say. But we see um the [09:31] reference in Persian is talking about [09:33] the Imam Hussein. Can you remember the [09:36] battle of flag, [09:37] >> the the red flag and of course the uh [09:40] river of blood that um we see um the [09:44] United States um covens [09:47] >> um inside the river of blood and where [09:50] the reference is it was a couple of [09:53] let's say a month or something ago uh [09:54] during the days of [09:57] um for the people who don't know the 40 [09:59] days between uh 10 of the month of [10:02] Muharam the day of the battle Kabella [10:05] it's a really really strong day. Uh [10:07] people remember it as the day the Shia [10:10] uh uh hid themselves sometimes to blood. [10:13] Uh and the 40th day is the 20 of Safar [10:16] and millions of people are going to [10:18] Kbala Shia Shia people of course. [10:21] >> Exactly. From all that you know if you [10:24] can summarize what is special about [10:27] cartoons or political cartoons in the [10:29] Middle East that you don't see in you [10:32] know wider or other areas actually in [10:34] the world. I think um much of the [10:38] cartoons are talking about um ideas [10:41] outside of the country. So I mean it [10:44] depends who's the a cartoonist of course [10:47] on the one hand it could be someone that [10:48] is on the government's payroll. So you [10:52] will want to talk about how the other [10:54] country is in a bad situation. For [10:56] example Qatar and Saudi Arabia we all [10:59] remember the blockade. Uh so katal talk [11:02] about how Saudi Arabia uh is trying to [11:05] force their hand for kata and failed for [11:08] example [11:09] >> uh and others are dissident like what we [11:12] saw [11:13] um and so they feel more freely [11:18] >> cartoonists that live in the country [11:20] mostly uh of course will be very afraid [11:23] you need to remember that in the Middle [11:24] East much of the countries uh free uh [11:27] speech is limited [11:28] >> yes that's including Iran included Iran [11:31] of course of course [11:32] >> which is our next topic because the [11:33] Iranians are very good at using [11:35] propaganda in general but specifically [11:37] the political cartoons I mean uh when [11:39] you go or when you see you don't [11:41] actually go to uh Palestine Square in [11:44] toran you always see one cartoon there [11:48] that always changing constantly that [11:50] always delivers a message. So in general [11:53] um how do you see the Iranians you know [11:56] using propaganda and specifically [11:58] caricaturures in order to deliver [12:00] deliver their messages and how [12:01] successful they are. So I think that I [12:04] see less political cartoons uh in Iran [12:07] in the let's say the last year we I see [12:09] more posters um digital posters like in [12:14] the uh inhan as you mentioned [12:17] >> uh also AI uh images we can see also uh [12:23] >> um [12:26] infographics [12:28] >> um so you see more than that I think the [12:30] big idea is taking a part of the story [12:34] and changing the narrative so it will [12:36] work for them. [12:38] >> Uh for example, straight up hormones, [12:40] everybody's talking about it. Uh so [12:42] they're saying, "Yeah, we can disrupt um [12:45] ships that are coming the way that [12:47] America wants." [12:48] >> Mhm. [12:48] >> It is happening, but that's not the full [12:51] story because the when you listen to [12:53] Trump can hear another story which is [12:56] also correct. So the whole idea is the [12:58] way you tell the narrative. [12:59] >> Mhm. And when I saw many videos online, [13:03] AI videos that are being, you know, used [13:05] more and more in the Iranian propaganda, [13:08] you understand that they always wants to [13:10] be seen as the triumph, as the [13:14] victorious in this uh um war and they [13:18] just like waiting for Trump to take [13:20] action and then they frame it the way [13:22] that they want to frame it. You know, I [13:24] I like the one of the I don't want to [13:27] say my favorite movies because it's not [13:29] that good of a movie. Uh the Rocky 6, [13:31] Rocky Baba. He says to his son, it's not [13:34] how hard you hit, it's not how hard you [13:36] get hit and keep moving forward. [13:38] >> And that is the let's say the Mukawa [13:41] resistance way to see how you fight cuz [13:44] they say look the Israeli and American [13:48] technology is much powerful than ours. [13:50] >> Mhm. [13:50] >> You can see it also in the infographs. [13:52] You can see it also in the digital [13:54] posters. You see many, I don't know, [13:57] ships, many um airplanes um of Israel or [14:02] mainly the United States of America. But [14:05] we're standing, they're drowning. [14:07] >> Mhm. [14:08] >> We're It doesn't matter what happened, [14:10] we will fix it. Don't worry. [14:11] >> That's also part of the narrative, the [14:13] Shia narrative as well. And let's take [14:16] that to you know your research in Middle [14:18] East in general because how successful [14:21] is that working for them in order to [14:23] convince their supporters and also [14:25] supporters you know all over the world [14:27] in the west but also you know Shiats [14:29] Lebanese that are living abroad uh in [14:32] their you know cause in general. [14:34] >> I think the Iranian cause um is in a bad [14:38] situation now. I mean for many years we [14:42] saw they have and we saw they have the [14:44] Houthi. We saw they have of course the [14:47] Iraqi Shia militians and I think they [14:50] had a big hit [14:52] >> um for what happened also in uh June 25 [14:56] and February 26. [14:59] Um and they're rebuilding. I mean many [15:02] people are talking now about a new Iran [15:04] Iran 2.0. there is a new Iran in a way [15:08] but it's I think the same idea uh and [15:11] people are not talking enough about the [15:13] the rising of Turkey [15:15] >> uh in this vacuum vacuum um and we see [15:20] it also in Syria we see uh that Iran is [15:24] they had to pull out after December uh [15:26] 24 when the Assad regime fell after like [15:29] 50 years of him and his father [15:32] >> and now we see a new regime there we see [15:35] Um um we see a regime that is getting [15:38] help from Turkey and from Qatar, which [15:42] is very disturbing in both ways. [15:44] >> Um I think a couple of days ago, Israel [15:47] bombed uh what they said will be a um [15:50] Turkish um um Turkish military place. I [15:55] think uh [15:56] >> it was a Syrian air base that of course [15:58] the Israeli fear is that Turkey will [16:00] deploy troops there and other you know [16:02] military assets including radars [16:04] including air defense system and I I'll [16:07] just I'll just finish in saying that the [16:09] story in this uh part is not only what [16:13] is really happening is what Israel [16:15] thinks. We need to remember that we're [16:16] in the day after October 7th so [16:19] everything you have to be more alert. [16:21] >> Yeah. But that takes us also to the fact [16:23] that Israel post October 7th is using [16:27] force first which is understandable for [16:31] many Israelis but many non-Israelis in [16:34] the west but also in the Middle East is [16:36] seen as you know um a bully in the [16:39] Middle East. Do you think that is [16:41] delivered to the you know Arab public in [16:43] general and how is that shaping how they [16:46] see Israel in years that are post also [16:49] Abraham Accords that Israel is [16:51] definitely wanting to expand their um [16:53] you know relationship with Arab world [16:56] >> you know during all the years uh the way [16:58] Israel are showing themsel wasn't a [17:01] problem [clears throat and snorts] [17:03] um in the beginning Israel tried to show [17:06] themsel as um you know I'm strong but [17:10] I'm in a bad situation. So help me. [17:12] >> Mhm. [17:12] >> Uh and depending what year of course. So [17:15] I think mainly after the Abraham Accords [17:17] and October 7th, Israel is using more [17:20] force. That is right. [17:22] >> And I think Israel needs to know how to [17:23] explain yourself much better. Not only [17:25] in what they're doing in Gaza, which [17:27] that's what people think. Oh, we need to [17:29] explain yourself what is happening. [17:32] Maybe take more films on the ground. uh [17:36] soldiers maybe talking to people there [17:39] but I think it's much more uh larger [17:42] thing I know that is [17:44] >> one of the brilliant persons to explain [17:47] stuff [17:48] >> uh and to tell a story and I think you [17:51] need to hear him more uh to the Arab [17:54] world to um to in English of course [17:57] >> but that's not happening you you're [17:59] saying [18:00] >> not enough not enough I think the main [18:03] story is that Israel has to expl explain [18:06] why they're doing stuff much more. I [18:08] mean, if you are holding part of Syria, [18:11] you're holding um a bigger part of [18:13] Syria. Remember, of course, um in Syrian [18:16] uh [18:17] >> perspective, the Golden Heights is also [18:18] a Syrian uh land, but we're not talking [18:21] about that. We're talking about other [18:22] parts. We're talking about in Lebanon [18:24] also other parts after October 7th. [18:26] speaking how how framing things happens [18:29] in the Arab world. For example, the [18:30] issue of greater Israel, which is, you [18:32] know, an idea that has been floating [18:34] around inside Israel in many, you know, [18:36] circles on the maybe extreme right, but [18:39] also something that has been picked up [18:41] by the Arab world, especially his for [18:43] example, they are even executing why [18:46] they need to keep their arms because [18:47] Israel wants to expand to greater [18:49] Israel. So, did you encounter that? a [18:52] couple of uh months ago, maybe a year [18:54] ago, um I saw like five, six or seven [18:57] political cartoons about uh Israel [18:59] Kubra, the greater Israel. And I I [19:02] looked and I said, "What's going on? Did [19:04] someone say something?" [19:06] >> I felt like someone is, you know, like [19:08] we're in a campaign and something [19:10] happens. Of course, [19:11] >> I saw um I can say the names. I think it [19:15] was it was it was others that they [19:19] showed how Israel is spreading itself [19:21] >> and I was like what is going on I looked [19:24] did [clears throat] [19:25] the prime minister say something the [19:26] foreign minister and I didn't really see [19:28] something [19:29] >> and there is people there are people [19:31] that are talking of course about [19:34] um to the you know more much greater [19:38] than Israel more than Jordan etc [19:42] >> but that's not mainstream Israel Mhm. [19:44] >> So I mean and they they used the phrase [19:48] that they don't really talk about it to [19:50] talk is like the policy of the Israel [19:53] government which is not right. M [19:56] >> um I think that as I said before Israel [19:59] not is not explaining enough what is [20:02] happening is they they they had the the [20:05] best uh uh speaker in the Arab world [20:08] which is of course [20:10] >> but even Naim Kasim knows how to explain [20:13] that look [20:15] >> there are Israeli soldiers in Lebanon [20:18] there's no way to say in there's [20:21] >> this is a fact that that's a fact [20:23] there's no other way to explain [20:25] And Israel is has to explain, look, [20:29] we had October 7th where look, we see [20:31] the we saw, we saw Radwan um on our [20:35] borders and we're we have to demolish [20:38] this town or other town and we found the [20:41] tunnels. You have to explain what is [20:43] going on. If you don't do it enough, [20:44] people will know. You know that we spoke [20:47] before about Iran and the and the the [20:50] way their propaganda is working. some of [20:52] their uh digital posters are in English. [20:55] >> Mhm. [20:56] >> Why is that? Because they're sending it [20:59] to the west. They're sending it to the [21:01] opposition of Trump to show, oh, you [21:03] know, don't fight Iran. Soldiers are [21:06] dying there, etc. [21:07] >> Yes. Um and when you look at the Arab [21:10] world, um we definitely see that uh the [21:13] Amiradis are the ones that are closest [21:15] to Israel and they are aligned uh in [21:18] many um you know areas and fronts. Uh [21:21] but when you look at the public opinion [21:23] in the Arab world, how do you how do you [21:25] see it? I mean, is it tilting toward [21:28] Israel more or is it, you know, post [21:30] October 7th actually going the other way [21:32] around? How do you uh look at it? I [21:35] think there's two uh ways to look at it. [21:37] First of all, we had uh the we had the [21:41] Abraham Accords and then we had October [21:42] 7th and they talked about what happened [21:45] uh to the Israelis for a minute or two [21:48] and it was horrible. But later everybody [21:50] talked about Gaza. All eyes on Gaza, [21:51] remember that. Uh but mainly we think we [21:54] need to speak about the education. [21:56] >> We can see it uh there's researchers uh [21:59] on it. Um you see countries that are [22:02] changing it in a way in Egypt even, but [22:05] mostly we see it in the UAE, we see it [22:07] in Saudi Arabia. And on the other hand, [22:09] we see PA uh we see and we see other [22:13] countries that are not changing it and [22:15] people that learn all they all their [22:17] lives that um Israelis aren't really uh [22:21] people. [22:22] >> So it's much easier uh um to see them in [22:26] that way and it's it's much harder to [22:28] explain what you're doing. [22:29] >> Well, you mentioned a country here that [22:32] we uh should stop and talk about of [22:33] course which is Qatar. For many [22:35] Israelis, it's one of the, you know, uh, [22:37] evil countries that are trying to [22:40] portray Israel as evil and, you know, [22:42] the demons of the world and also, you [22:46] know, throwing money on universities in [22:47] the west. Do you see it this way or do [22:50] you think that there's a broader way to [22:52] see how Qatar works? [22:54] >> I think that Qatar is a very [22:55] sophisticated country. I think the uh, [22:58] Tani, the Tani country, the Tani family [23:01] knows how to play the game. So they use [23:03] their power, their soft power. We saw it [23:06] in the World Cup in 2022. We we see it [23:10] in other uh such in sports and in [23:12] others. Um and I think they know how to [23:16] show the world that they need them. [23:19] >> In the other hand, you can say, "Wait a [23:21] second. How can you be friends with [23:23] Iran? How can you be friends with [23:24] Hamas?" That's a hard question. They're [23:27] terrorists. They're helping terrorists. [23:29] How can you do that? But then they'll [23:31] say, "No, I want you to need me." So, [23:35] are there evil? The easy uh answer will [23:38] be yes. They're doing horrible stuff. [23:40] They're helping they're bringing their [23:42] Islamist way of Muslim [clears throat] [23:44] Brotherhood by the way that they're [23:46] still subjective. [23:47] >> And I'll I'll explain. you know that [23:50] most in the Arab world uh the Muslim [23:53] Brotherhood are abandoned are are not [23:57] legal even uh we saw it in lately in [24:00] Jordan Egypt of course a couple of times [24:03] um and Qatar is [24:06] going on the way of the bad boy of the [24:08] Middle East. [24:09] >> Um and I think the way that they're [24:12] doing it, they're doing it in the soft [24:13] power, not in the hard power. They're [24:15] not conquering a place. It's not Iraq [24:18] invading uh Kuwait in 1990. [24:21] Um they're doing it through, as you [24:23] said, the universities. They're doing it [24:25] as the way that uh they want uh [24:29] President Trump and others to think that [24:30] they need them. Oh, we need someone to [24:32] talk to the Taliban who is in relations [24:34] with Taliban. I mean, we're not, of [24:36] course. Oh, Qatar. I mean, they're [24:39] intriguing. They're interesting. Okay, [24:41] we'll have to talk to them. We don't [24:42] have others that can do it. Hamas, etc. [24:46] So it's a special way that Qatar uh [24:49] makes the west world to feel that they [24:52] need Qatar to do their what to do what [24:55] they want. [24:55] >> Is it ideological or just you know a [24:58] practical way for them to advance their [25:00] interest as a small country with [25:03] basically no army with you know many [25:06] countries around it that can swallow it [25:09] even including Saudi Arabia. Saudi [25:11] Arabia and others. Of course, I think [25:12] that um uh Qatar is the truth will be [25:16] somewhere somewhere in the middle. Of [25:17] course, there's a lot of interest. Uh [25:19] and then we saw what happened uh in [25:21] February 26 when Iran Iran, which is um [25:27] working together in the gas industry uh [25:31] with Qatar, of course, they bombed [25:33] Qatar, they lost billions of dollars. Um [25:37] and on the other hand we can see how [25:40] they do um push their ide ideology. We [25:44] see it in the campuses in the US. So I [25:48] think the the truth will be somewhere in [25:49] the middle. [25:50] >> And let's go back to cartoonist uh in [25:53] general. If you would want to pick one [25:55] cartoonist that you think that he [25:57] portrays the um way things go around in [26:00] the Middle East the best, who would you [26:03] take? Who would you pick? Uh I don't [26:05] want to say it's like choosing a son but [26:07] uh I think Hajj um he was born not far [26:11] from here in Ramala, Trudin and Ramala. [26:14] He was born uh in 1967 before the war. [26:18] >> Um he lives in Jordan by the way. Both [26:21] of his brothers, he has two uh brothers [26:24] who are cartoonists also Usama and Ham. [26:27] Uh, but I think the way that he's [26:29] showing the Middle East, um, he's [26:32] really, really popular. Uh, I remember [26:35] in 2020, [26:37] um, he had a political cartoons that [26:40] criticized the whole Abraham Accords. [26:42] Uh, and he showed that Israel, uh, [26:45] doesn't like the idea of the UAE to have [26:48] F35. [26:49] Mhm. [26:50] >> So he saw he pro he draw a picture of [26:53] MBZ Muhammad bin Z and and he showed [26:57] like someone who was spitting on him [27:00] >> and he he wrote tif uh 35. A tif is like [27:04] a spit. [27:05] >> Uh and he disappeared. [27:07] I Haj disappeared for like a week. [27:10] >> Okay. And then we saw many cartoonists [27:13] all over the world, not only in the hair [27:14] world saying free Abu Mub is like his or [27:19] etc. [27:19] >> Okay. [27:20] >> Um and like after a week or two uh he [27:22] got freed and everything was good and [27:25] everything. So I don't know. [27:25] >> Did you draw this cartoon in Jordan? [27:28] >> Um I think it was in Harid um [27:31] >> in the Saudi newspaper. [27:32] >> I think he's based in Jordan. [27:35] >> I He's based in Jordan. I think a jaded [27:37] is [27:39] from Qatar. Yes, exactly. [27:41] >> If I remember. Yes. [27:42] >> Yes. Uh but it's like in Jordan, of [27:43] course. [27:44] >> Maybe maybe I just think maybe it was [27:46] only on his Twitter or Facebook or [27:47] something, but it it was his he [27:49] disappeared like for a week. And the [27:51] interesting thing is there are more [27:53] political cartoons that disappeared. [27:55] >> But because he was so wellnown, it went [27:58] all over the world. [27:58] >> Demanded his release uh which happened [28:01] eventually. And do you think the Israeli [28:03] cartoonists are also doing a good job? [28:05] First of all, they're doing a great job. [28:07] I think they're not enough. I think uh [28:09] >> and we see that mainly init I would say [28:12] >> that [28:13] >> the cartoonists I mean [28:14] >> so I think it depends what you're [28:16] reading of course I and I like I mean [28:18] there's shala and mishon there's um [28:21] guyad and I think and there are others [28:24] of course or and others I think the idea [28:29] uh some of them take the idea like the [28:31] same theme from the Arab world that [28:33] you're like it's needs to be like a [28:36] punch in the gut like strong and some [28:39] are just telling uh their idea. I think [28:43] that people don't understand how much [28:45] political cartoons are every day in the [28:47] Arab world much more. It's not only not [28:49] only because Israel is like 10 million [28:51] people in the Arab world and much more. [28:53] >> And do you think the age of AI is [28:55] threatening the cartoons that [28:58] >> at some point they're not going to be [28:59] used anymore? [29:00] >> I think it is threatening but not [29:02] enough. I think uh political car [29:04] cartoons I think it's here to stay. Um I [29:07] think the whole idea of AI where you [29:09] know we just see the the top of the [29:11] iceberg. I mean we don't know more than [29:13] that. I think uh in in many aspects but [29:17] also in the way in political cartoons I [29:19] think I think I see when it's an AI and [29:23] when it's um a cartoon maybe in a couple [29:27] of years it will be harder to know. um [29:29] you know today I assume that you can [29:31] tell the AI I want you to draw uh [29:34] cartoons like Carlos Lat like us etc. Uh [29:39] so it's interesting where you're going. [29:41] >> Absolutely. So how people can uh follow [29:43] your work I mean [29:45] >> in many areas including a podcast just [29:48] like this one. [29:49] >> Um my mail and all my users all over [29:53] islam a r a v i m Islam. Uh it's from [29:58] the days I taught uh that major [30:01] Islam in in Israel. Um so Facebook, [30:06] Telegram, uh Instagram, Tik Tok, [30:10] >> but do you draw also cuts yourself? I [30:12] >> I know how to write in Hebrew and [30:15] English and Arabic. Uh maybe I'll call [30:17] it balloon letters, not more than that. [30:20] >> Uh that's will that will be my top in a [30:23] drawing. [30:23] >> You stick on criticizing other people's [30:25] drawings. Not only Kristan, I think the [30:28] idea is uh explaining. [30:30] >> Absolutely. [30:31] >> I think I think I think the whole idea [30:33] of what I'm doing is showing the people [30:36] or explaining the way that the Arab [30:39] world is looking at us that many people [30:41] don't understand because they don't know [30:43] what is. They don't know uh um the story [30:48] of in others. So when I explain what [30:52] they see and the background from the [30:55] culture from uh the Islam, I think they [30:59] can see a much brighter uh picture. [31:01] >> Definitely an interesting niche to uh [31:04] follow and research. Uh thank you so [31:06] much for explaining all of that for us [31:08] and especially explaining all of these [31:10] uh very interesting cartoons here. Nom [31:11] Bennett, a Middle East researcher, an [31:14] expert on Kikuro political cartoon and [31:16] also host of podcast. Thank you so much [31:19] for being with us. Thank you, Bal. Thank [31:20] you for having
