Transcript [00:00] It starts in the very first grade. So using the Arabic letter ha to teach two words: [00:07] hujum, which is to, um, to attack, and and shahid, which is a martyr. You know, you're [00:14] talking about 6 or 7 year olds. It's starting right at the beginning. They're starting with [00:19] young children who have none of these ideas in their head. But but let me tell you, after eight, [00:26] nine, ten, 12 years of Palestinian Authority education, they have all of these ideas in their [00:32] head. And imagine how hard it is for those ideas to be removed. Pretty much impossible. [00:42] Welcome to The Honest Take, the show that goes past the headlines to find out what's actually [00:47] true about Israel, and about the people covering it. I'm Ben Chertoff and my guest today is Marcus [00:53] Sheff, the man who reads the schoolbooks of the Middle East line by line, so nobody can say [01:00] they didn't know what's in them. And today we're not just reading the worst pages out loud. We're [01:06] asking why they're still there and who could rewrite them. [01:15] There's a fourth grade math problem in the Palestinian Authority schoolbooks. Not apples, not [01:21] oranges. Martyrs from the First Intifada and from the second. Add them up. There's a physics [01:28] lesson on Newton's second law, illustrated with a kid aiming a slingshot at Israeli soldiers. [01:34] And in the first grade, one letter of the Arabic alphabet is taught with two words attack [01:41] and martyr. About 1.3 million Palestinian children learn from these books, [01:48] and before the war in Gaza, nearly 300,000 of them learned it in schools [01:55] run by the United Nations. Now, you've probably heard the story told as outrage, and today [02:01] we're going to tell it as accountability because these books are rewritten every year. And they [02:08] didn't always look like this. Before 2016, they taught the Israel-Egypt peace treaty, the Israel-Jordan [02:15] peace treaty, at least the idea that peace was possible. Then they were taken [02:22] out. When Hamas ran Gaza's schools, it didn't change a word. And when the UN's own [02:28] review told UNRWA to stop using this material, it kept using it. So every year that these books [02:35] come back, the same isn't an accident, it's a decision. A Palestinian prime minister told his [02:42] own cabinet he'd pay for the textbooks out of the water and electricity money before he changed the [02:48] curriculum. Here's what Marcus wants you to know. It doesn't have to be this way. The Emirates [02:55] rebuilt their curriculum around respect for the other. Saudi Arabia has spent six years stripping [03:01] anti-Semitism out of its schoolbooks. In Morocco, the textbooks show a Muslim family at a Jewish [03:07] Shabbat dinner, and he points to Germany, where after the war, the schools were rebuilt. [03:14] Root and branch. His word for all of this is banal. School is the most ordinary [03:21] thing in a child's life, which is exactly why it works. He's a former reporter and editor at The [03:27] Jerusalem Post, and today he runs IMPACT-se, the Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural [03:34] Tolerance in School Education. He's testified before Congress on what UNRWA teaches, and his [03:40] team reads every line of every book, in every subject, in every grade. Marcus Sheff, [03:47] welcome to The Honest Take. Thank you so much, Ben. Before we get into any of this, you were a [03:52] political reporter, then an editor at The Jerusalem Post, a foreign correspondent and then [03:57] ran a communications firm. None of that reads. You know, I read schoolbooks for a [04:04] living. Can you take me through the turn? How did you get from journalism into into what you're [04:10] doing now? Sure. Well, you know, I think I can just tell you why IMPACT-se is so important to me. [04:17] And I think this might resonate with with other folks as well. You know, I think we all understand [04:23] that textbooks are uniquely authoritative, and textbooks carry the values, the identities [04:30] that states wish to pass down to the next generation, but which we adults wish to pass [04:36] down to the next generation. And through textbooks, we create societies of the future. You know, this [04:43] is particularly the case in the MENA region and also in Europe. I know less in the US [04:49] where textbooks aren't necessarily the primary means of teaching. But here in the Middle East, [04:56] MENA being the Middle East and North Africa, of course you get one book, one grade, one subject, [05:02] and they are rewritten every year. And it is through these textbooks that [05:09] teachers teach that which the ministries of education have approved that year. There is not [05:16] much wiggle room. And so, you know, the power of textbooks to create those societies that [05:22] we want to live in, those societies which are peaceful, which are tolerant, which are accepting [05:28] of the other is absolutely tremendous. And, you know, understanding that. And I [05:35] was absolutely drawn to the mission of IMPACT-se and the mission to make [05:42] sure that tens of millions, hundreds of millions of children are [05:49] brought up with the values which we all think are important and not, of course, to be radicalized, [05:56] to be indoctrinated. Yeah, I really hope Americans do grasp how how central these textbooks are. I [06:02] mean, I think they will, especially since how much, um, controversy has surrounded some attempts at [06:08] rewriting textbooks here in the US. Um, as a practical point, um, and this is my own [06:14] curiosity, how do you get these textbooks to study, especially the ones that [06:21] are coming out of active war zones and closed educational systems? Mhm. It's a really good [06:27] question. Um, and you know, I think the the answer is it really depends on the country. In some [06:34] countries textbooks are um available digitally. In some countries they are available. But [06:41] you know, they are print editions in some countries, um, they're really quite hard to get [06:46] hold of. And so, um, you know, we have learned over the years how to get hold of those [06:53] textbooks, how to, um, make sure that we have full sets. Um, but it [07:00] is not always easy. Let's let's be absolutely clear about that. You know, we don't cherry-pick. We [07:06] look at every line of every book, of every subject, of every grade. And so, you know, think [07:13] of grades or years 1 to 12. Um, imagine that you are talking about multiple [07:19] subjects. You know, you're probably talking about 350 textbooks in a year, which need to be studied. [07:26] And so getting hold of those textbooks is not always, as I say, obvious. But [07:33] we, you know, we do know how to do this. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes we have to go the extra mile. [07:39] When you get a stack of textbooks, let's say a few hundred books, what do you and your analysts [07:46] actually do with them? What's the practical modality of looking into this? Well, I [07:52] think the key thing is how we look at the textbooks. And so [07:59] we're looking at them through particular international standards of peace and tolerance. Um, [08:04] those are respect for the other respect for the individual other. Peacemaking is the way to [08:09] resolve conflicts. No hate, no incitement. Gender equality and other forms of [08:16] equality. Historical accuracy. Such an important measurement, and looking through [08:23] all of those standards is the job of the initial researcher. That is to [08:29] say, the researcher that will get, um, a textbook, five, ten, 15 [08:36] textbooks, and over a period of time go through every line, every page. [08:42] And having done that will write up a report. Now that report goes [08:49] to the person who is ultimately going to be the author of the report, and [08:56] that that person is sitting with for each textbook, a report on that particular textbook. So [09:03] it could be social studies, grade four. And now multiply that by all of the social studies [09:09] curriculum. Multiply that by all the subjects. That's a lot of book reports. And that person that [09:15] author will bring together all of these book reports and make sense out of it. And this [09:22] is the the art which goes along with the science. The science is going through line by line [09:29] and looking at the whole textbook through those standards, which I mentioned. The art is kind of [09:35] stepping back a little bit. Looking at the book reports, looking at the, um, that [09:41] information which the researchers have gleaned from the textbooks and, um, [09:48] thinking to to his or herself. Okay, what am I looking at here? Um, what is the, [09:55] um, theme of this corpus of curriculum of this mass of curriculum that I have in front of [10:02] me? And we'll begin writing, um, the report based on that. Now, for [10:08] instance, the Syrian report, which is going to come out in 2 or 3 weeks' time. It's 300 pages long [10:15] and something like, I think 60,000 words. So, you know, they they get to be quite weighty, [10:22] but that is the only way to do it. And if you really want to understand the curriculum, which [10:27] means, quite frankly, if you really want to understand how this country that we are looking [10:34] at is going to be in 5 or 10 years' time, and I will counter that, then you have to do it that [10:41] way. There is no other way. Why am I saying this tells you what the country is going to be like [10:48] in five, ten years' time? Because textbooks are remarkable political predictors. It's as simple as [10:53] that. What children are taught today in classrooms all over the world is a pretty good indication of [10:59] what the country is going to be like in in ten years' time. You know, if you are 14 and looking [11:04] at the curriculum, ten years' time you're 24 and a fully fit member of society. [11:11] And that which you were taught ten years ago is these other identities, these are the values [11:17] which, um, the state or the institution wishes to pass down to you. And, and these [11:24] standards which you just talked about, that you are grading these textbooks against that. You [11:30] didn't just make these up. I mean, these are UNESCO's own standards. The UN body. Who who makes these [11:37] standards? Have they um. Have they ever said anything or done [11:43] anything about your findings. It's a really good question. They are indeed [11:49] UNESCO standards and 1 or 2 actual UN standards. So taken from the General Assembly, but [11:56] majoritively, absolutely right. Taken from the the UNESCO Assembly. And UNESCO is, you [12:03] know, an interesting organization. Um, let's put it that way. Uh, they, um, [12:10] do not necessarily feel free themselves to look at individual countries for [12:17] political reasons. They are constrained. Uh, as you can imagine. And so, um, you know, we [12:23] don't have that constraint and we are quite happy to plow on and do any work that we want to do. We [12:29] are absolutely independent. We are independent of any state. And UNESCO is is not. UNESCO is [12:36] a UN organization, um, which is driven by the nation states which make up the [12:43] plenary of UNESCO. and so they cannot do what we do. And there is, I would [12:50] imagine, interest. Um, you know, conversations have been had with UNESCO, but they, [12:57] you know, do what they do and we do what we do. Let's get into the actual meat of the [13:03] discussion here and, and the books themselves. Um, what is actually in them, some of the more [13:10] problematic stuff that you've come up with, which is not just, you know, these aren't isolated [13:15] incidents. There's a there's a fourth grade math problem that you that you discuss. Can you explain? [13:21] You know, what does that look like on the page? So I think you're you're specifically referring [13:27] to the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. So that fourth grade math problem and it takes a, [13:35] um, exercise. And in that exercise it asks young people: X number of martyrs, [13:42] terrorists essentially, were killed in the First Intifada, X [13:49] in, or Y, sorry, in in the Second Intifada. Um, how many martyrs, terrorists, do we have? [13:55] And you know, in that there is a world. So first of all, clearly they could [14:02] use apples and oranges. Yeah. This isn't this isn't an example. This isn't a history example [14:09] about the Intifadas themselves. This is math. Yeah. Exactly. Absolutely. [14:16] Right. And I think it's it's worth drilling down into that a little bit. Um, use of STEM subjects. [14:23] Um, but, you know, ultimately when you look at that and when you [14:30] then understand the use of this example and the reason for the use of example as a [14:37] worldview opens up, and that is the worldview of the Palestinian Authority in relation to its [14:44] school curriculum and that view, and after looking at this for, for so many years, I think sadly, [14:51] we've only come to to one conclusion that the Palestinian Authority sees its school [14:57] curriculum as a as a strategy, a strategy to maintain, um, a [15:04] level of what they would call muqawama, resistance and a [15:11] constant indoctrination across all grades and across all subjects. Why use STEM? [15:17] Why use math? Because you can. Because it's there. Because it is available. So let's shove [15:24] indoctrination into math, which has, as you say, absolutely nothing to do with history, the [15:31] Intifadas, or any other part of the school curriculum. And we've seen this, by the way, repeated in other [15:38] science examples and the use of a a young person holding a [15:44] slingshot. And that slingshot is aimed at Israeli soldiers. And [15:51] the exercise is about Newton's second law. So using a a physics [15:58] example, again, in order to indoctrinate young people. And what is the indoctrination precisely? [16:04] It is saying very clearly to young people who are looking at this, um, on their desks, [16:10] you must become part of the resistance. You must endanger yourself, you 14 year [16:17] old, because that is the age of the person who is reading this. You 14 year old boy or girl, must [16:23] endanger yourselves. And for us, for the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian [16:29] Authority is using a physics example in order to do that, as they did with maths. But it starts [16:36] earlier. It starts in the very first grade. So using the Arabic letter ha, um, to [16:43] teach, um, two words: hujum, which is, um, to, [16:49] um, to attack, and and shahid, which is a martyr. You know, you're talking about 6 or 7 year [16:56] olds who are being taught a letter in their first year in school, in a [17:04] manner of indoctrination. The starting right at the beginning, they're starting with young [17:10] children who have none of these ideas in their head. But but let me tell you, after eight, nine, [17:17] ten, 12 years of Palestinian Authority education, they have all of these ideas in their head. [17:23] And imagine how hard it is for those ideas to be removed. Pretty much impossible. Deradicalization [17:30] is extraordinarily difficult. And we're talking about 1.3 million [17:36] Palestinian children in various school programs who are being taught this. Day after day, [17:43] month after month, year after year. Your July report pulled from an eighth grade [17:50] Arabic textbook that's still in use, a story that lionized fighters who strapped on explosive [17:57] belts and turned their bodies into fire. Daggers, daggers landing, quote, on the necks of the enemy [18:03] soldiers. I mean, it's it's astounding. And the line we shall not forget the burnt, the the image of a [18:10] burnt Zionist soldier. These are eighth graders. And that's not an archive that's current. Um, I [18:17] mean, like, how is this still being taught in 2026? It's a really good question. And you look at [18:24] that image, um, that you that you bring up and you recall, um, October [18:31] the 7th and you see the connection between the two. Um, and this is something that [18:37] we had warned about for, for years and years. For years and years. We said very, very clearly, if you [18:44] teach young people that jihad and martyrdom are the most important meanings in life, that you need [18:50] to sacrifice yourself for the resistance. Jews are liars and fraudsters who [18:58] should be removed. If you teach them to cut the necks of the enemy, as you [19:05] refer to. Now throw all this together and imagine, year after year of education, [19:12] education, of being taught these examples, being taught these ideas. And then [19:19] look at October the 7th. And there is, um, you know, absolutely no doubt in our minds [19:25] that the Palestinian Authority's education was a key element in those [19:32] attacks, was a key element in creating a population who were capable of doing these [19:39] terrible things. And it seems like it's getting worse, not better. Um, your, [19:46] your Palestinian Authority review from November found that some of the [19:53] references to peace plans and peace initiatives that had been in the books were removed. [19:59] Um, like, it's obviously that's intentional. It's clearly intentional. It's [20:06] strategic. And we always say that the Palestinian Authority is curriculum. And I would like to, you [20:11] know, be able to to talk later about, um, curricula which are improving around the region. There's a [20:17] plethora of them. And, you know, in the sense that Palestinian Authority's curriculum is the outlier. [20:22] It is not the, um, the norm in the region. Um, but yes. No, absolutely. It [20:29] was a strategic decision which was clearly made by the Palestinian Authority to radicalize [20:35] further its school curriculum. It was never great, let's not kid ourselves, but there were, before [20:41] 2016, there were ideas of peacemaking, and there were peace [20:48] agreements within the curriculum. The Israel-Egypt peace agreement, the Israel-Jordan peace [20:55] agreement, the Wye Accords were all in the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. So at [21:02] least it gave young Palestinians an idea that peacemaking is possible. They all went. They [21:07] were taken out. And, you know, that doesn't happen by accident. That's not happenstance. That is a a [21:13] strategic decision which was made at the top. And we know absolutely that it was made at the top. [21:19] And so what was left actually, was this, if you like, dismissive, um, part of the [21:26] Oslo Accords where essentially young Palestinians are told, you know, there was this attempt, [21:33] but it, you know, didn't serve our purposes. They even doctored the letter that Yasser Arafat wrote [21:39] to Rabin talking about, um, you know, an end to violence. And they doctored [21:46] it, so they doctored, if you like, the letter of their own leader, because it was it [21:53] had elements which were not hateful enough towards Israel, towards the Jews. And so, you know, [22:00] this is, um, you know, clearly something which was, um, created strategically, [22:06] created comprehensively across grades and across subjects. Um, and it emerged [22:13] in, in 2016, then 2017, then 2018, and, and then we saw what [22:20] we're seeing today. Since then, there has been hardly any change at all to the Palestinian Authority's [22:25] curriculum. 2016 was grades 1 to 4, 2017, 5 to 10. And the last two grades, the Tawjihi, [22:32] the matriculation, came out in 2018, and all of this was done [22:38] under the international spotlight. You know, the international community. Um, it was not then and [22:44] it's not now unaware of the Palestinian authorities curriculum. And, you know, we were all [22:50] aware that representatives of the international community and in Jerusalem [22:57] and in Ramallah were liaising with the Palestinian Authority while this curriculum was [23:03] being created. They were aware of its creation. And clearly, if they made [23:10] any effort at all in order to create a better, more peaceful curriculum, they failed entirely, [23:16] didn't they? Yeah. In fact, UNRWA itself is using these, uh, using these materials to [23:23] teach in UNRWA's schools. Can you go into the knowledge that the UN has through UNRWA, which [23:30] is a UN organization that is propagating these ideas and this material. [23:38] So I think, you know, UNRWA is the most appalling element in this story because, as you quite [23:44] rightly say, it is a UN organization. It is, at least theoretically, not a Palestinian [23:50] organization. And they are, um, supposed to be aligned with UNESCO [23:57] values, with UNESCO. Sorry, with, with also UNESCO, but UN values and and [24:04] rules and um, you know, that is clearly not the case. The Palestinian Authority's curriculum is [24:11] taught by the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria. It is um, it was taught by the [24:18] Palestinian Authority in Gaza until, um, Hamas took over and then, um, their [24:25] schools went to Hamas, but the majority of schools in Gaza are [24:31] UNRWA schools because the majority of the population of Gaza, according to UNRWA's rules, are refugees. And [24:37] so imagine let me take you back to October the 7th and to those [24:44] thousands of people committing acts of terror, [24:51] murder, rape, burning, abduction of young, abduction of old. The majority of them went to UNRWA [24:57] schools because those are the majority of schools in Gaza. And you don't have to be a great [25:01] statistician to work out that that was the case. And there is a [25:08] complicity in UNRWA's refusal to change its curriculum [25:16] after being asked year after year, by so many voices and time and time [25:22] again, they said, no, no, this is the curriculum that we have to teach. There is no reason why they have [25:28] to teach it. It is not written down anywhere. They claim it is. They made up some rule about the [25:33] host nation curriculum. It is, it is not, not in any document that anybody can [25:40] find. In fact, UN organizations all over the world teach what they think they need to teach, in, [25:47] in the best. Um, you know, for the, that that which is best for the children in that area. [25:54] And UNRWA has always been an exception in that. They have absolutely insisted on teaching this [25:59] material and again, what is that? What are they teaching? They're teaching a very clear message. [26:04] There will be one state, Palestine, from the river to the sea, which will be gained by jihad, [26:09] martyrdom and violence and sacrifice. Your sacrifice, you young students sitting at this desk [26:15] today, it is your sacrifice that will gain this. This is a UN organization. And even after October the [26:22] 7th, we saw no contrition at all. No voice from UNRWA after October the 7th [26:29] ever turned around and said, well, you know, we are. We are. You have hard [26:36] evidence that there that that some of these people who committed these atrocities were UNRWA [26:42] students. We have hard evidence that some of them were students. We have hard evidence that [26:48] many of them were employees. Right. So, you know, there's evidence of teachers, there's [26:55] evidence of school principals, school principals who, you know, were part of this. Um, there are [27:02] evidence of person after person, so many, in fact, that the US is now [27:09] taking action because so many UNRWA employees were involved in October [27:16] 7th. These are not, you know, a few bad apples. This is the whole barrel [27:22] absolutely stinking with anti-Semitism, with incitement to violence [27:28] and acts like October the 7th. And by the way, UNRWA has created some of its own [27:35] material over the years. And that material itself, you know, you would imagine. Okay. Um, they said we [27:40] have no choice. We have to teach the Palestinian Authority curriculum. But when we create our own [27:46] curriculum, it's going to be absolutely fine. It's going to meet all those UNESCO standards, right? [27:51] Not not so much. They created a material which includes just one example, which always sticks in [27:57] my mind, um, where they refer to an attack on a bus of Israeli [28:03] civilians as a, as a [ASR - unresolved], as a barbecue party. Wow. And this is UNRWA [28:10] itself, creating material which considers the burning of Jews as a barbecue party. [28:17] Again, UN organization, an organization which is financed by the international [28:23] community and they feel absolutely fine teaching this stuff. And by the way. The international [28:30] community is and has over the last few years dropped their funding to [28:37] UNRWA considerably because, you know, it's just become absolutely clear that the organization is [28:42] not fit for purpose, that they have abrogated their duty of care if they ever had one. And I'm [28:48] just not entirely sure that they have one in the first place. And, you know, they they in good [28:54] conscience don't feel that they can finance this anymore. They, um, I mean, yeah, this is paid for by [28:59] US tax dollars for everyone who complains about tax dollars going to Israel. This is also going [29:05] to UNRWA. I mean the, the US and we were you know, we [29:12] testified in Congress, um, to make sure that the the evidence was in front of the the lawmakers [29:18] and, and very soon after that the, the US did withdraw all its funding, $400 million [29:25] to to UNRWA. And, um, you know, that that made perfect sense at the time. It makes perfect sense [29:31] now, we, you know, clearly, um, one cannot imagine that any administration in the future would ever want [29:37] to give that money back to UNRWA either. But one must be, you know, aware, um, that, you know, these [29:43] things are always possible. Uh, you mentioned you alluded to this, that, um, there that the [29:50] UNRWA example is an outlier. Is there any other example of a UN sponsored, uh, [29:57] education program that so blatantly goes against UNESCO's own standards? No, nothing [30:04] that we've seen. No. Um, you know, we we are aware of, you know, the UN operates [30:11] all over the world and it operates through different agencies. Um, you know, from UNICEF to, um, [30:17] you know, a bunch of a bunch of organizations. and there are also, you know, [30:24] clearly non-UN organizations operating in the refugee and aid sphere all over the world. And we have not [30:30] seen one example of any of them, um, knowingly, purposefully teaching hate. [30:38] And you know, even saying that is kind of obvious. What what aid organization would go out [30:45] there and, and purposefully teach hate. Oh, right. Right. Is there any is there any reference in any [30:52] of these materials to coexistence, to a two state solution to to peace? None, none at all. [30:59] I mean, there are there are references to to peace, but never references to peace with, with Israel, [31:04] with Jews. It's just it's an amorphous concept. Um, you know, peace is good, but. But are [31:11] children in Palestinian schools ever taught about the possibility of peace with Israel? [31:18] No. Absolutely not. On the contrary, they are taught again this, this vision, which [31:24] is the opposite of peace. It is, you know, a Palestine from river to sea going through [31:31] violence. And they are a part of that. It says something too that Hamas was okay with teaching [31:37] that same curriculum. They didn't change it. It's a really interesting point, and one which we bring [31:43] up a lot with policymakers. They didn't change a jot or a tittle, as they say. They didn't change one word of [31:49] it. They were absolutely happy. Go teach this. Yeah. So and and you know, as you know, they [31:55] are you know, they come from a, um, a Muslim Brotherhood, um, genesis, a [32:02] Muslim Brotherhood perspective and yet really happy to teach the Palestinian authorities [32:07] curriculum created in Ramallah by Fatah. You were invited to talk to [32:14] the talk to the UN. And, um, after [32:21] UNRWA staff were implicated. Um. You testified. What? What did you tell the committee? [32:29] Well, there was a committee set up by Madame Colonna. She was the former French foreign [32:34] minister, then a deputy at the United Nations, um, who was tasked with [32:41] investigating UNRWA. Now, first of all, this is the UN investigating itself, right? [32:48] And and having accepted that, the parameters were really quite narrow. The parameters were [32:55] neutrality. And there is a lot more to this issue than the issue of neutrality. But still, [33:02] um, we spent a lot of time with Madame Colonna and her colleagues. We went through all of the [33:08] issues, and a report was written. And UNRWA was instructed in the report to take certain [33:14] steps. Pretty much didn't happen. And this is you know, we're now what I think. Um, two and a half [33:20] years on. And yet, um, those changes have not been made. And UNRWA moved the goalposts. You know, they [33:26] said they they did something else which wasn't connected with what they were asked to do in the [33:31] first place. And so, you know, all in all, a, um, a complete [33:38] failure of UNRWA to heed the words of what was quite a, a narrow [33:45] UN report at the end of the day and an internal one at that. You know, we were gratified to be [33:51] asked. We were the only nonprofit to be asked to testify. Um, you know, I can't say I had [33:56] great hopes that, you know, UNRWA was going to, you know, suddenly put its hand on its heart and [34:01] say, we have to make these changes. Um, and yeah, they did not. The the [34:07] criticism of this argument or the or the pushback is that, um, okay. But if UNRWA wasn't there, there'd [34:14] be no education. That seems kind of hollow, because this isn't. I mean, these are PDFs. It's [34:21] not. This doesn't seem like a difficult thing to change. Yeah. I mean, yeah, first of all, [34:27] absolutely, changing it is is a matter of, you know, real ease. There is, you know, curricular change all the [34:34] time. The Palestinian curriculum, um, you know, is taught in a couple of places, but by, obviously [34:40] not by, the Palestinian Authority. Um, in a version which is, um, which is not hostile, which [34:47] is, um, which does not indoctrinate. And it is relatively easy to do. Schoolbooks are relatively [34:54] easy to produce. You know, imagine there are, what, something like 2 billion children all over the [34:58] world in school. So it's not like the world does not have experience in how to produce textbooks. [35:03] And these are kind of Finnish magazine types, not like the the books behind me and the books, you [35:09] know, that I was brought up with in a, in a British school. And so, you know, changing them is a matter [35:15] of ease. Yes, absolutely. Um. And yet, no. They they at no point said yes. We will [35:22] take this on. We will make these changes. There has been there has been, you know, strong [35:29] requirements by the UN that this happens. And it seems like this is a this is a recurring thing [35:34] that they say you have to change this and and then nothing changes. What what will it take to [35:39] enforce. This is a really good question. And it's a question we ask ourselves. [35:45] Um, and I think, you know, if the curriculum that we have seen, that [35:52] we see today is a curriculum created because of a political will, [35:59] because of a political strategy, because of a desire by the Palestinian leadership to make sure [36:05] that they are indoctrinating 1.3 million children every single day. Um, then [36:12] it has to be changed from the top of the Palestinian pyramid. That makes it absolutely [36:18] clear: we need a new curriculum, and there are a surplus of examples all over the Middle East. [36:25] Of the kind of material they they could produce if they had the will. Um, so far, no will. [36:32] But the answer to your question is that's what it will take. Um, political will. This is not a [36:37] pedagogical question. This is a political question. This realm of textbooks in the Middle East is a [36:43] is a political realm. And, um, no, um, no more so than the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. It has [36:50] been under the microscope, us and others. Um, year on year for so long now. And yet [36:57] the resistance to change, um, is such a strong indication of the politics which lies [37:04] behind this curriculum. I think that this would be, uh, something that would be brought up critically, [37:10] or at least a question that would be brought up critically. Um, have you ever turned that same [37:16] methodology on Israeli textbooks? And if so, what did you find? Yeah, absolutely. We look at the [37:22] Israeli curriculum and, um, I think we can honestly say, um, more comprehensively than any [37:29] other curriculum that we look at. You know, the difference is that other curricula in the region [37:33] are changed actually twice a year, two semesters, twice a year. The Israeli curriculum is more like [37:40] the European model. And so, you know, a textbook gets changed maybe every 6 or [37:47] 7 or 8 years. And also the system is entirely different. And textbooks in, um, Israel, with 1 or [37:53] 2 exceptions, are not produced by the state, by the Ministry of Education. They're produced by [37:58] publishers who, um, then go to the Ministry of Education in, in order to get [38:04] a certification. And then school principals, um, make a decision about, you know, which [38:11] textbooks are going to be used in their schools. Um, so very much like the French example, for [38:17] instance, three big publishers. They are competing, um, to get into the schools. The Israeli system is [38:22] is very close to that. I guess the one exception is the famous civics textbook in Israel, which is [38:28] produced by the Ministry of Education and and which has not changed for, for the last, um, [38:35] 7 or 8 years and more. And, um, I think the answer to your question is the Israeli curriculum [38:41] is, uh, adheres to those UNESCO standards. Um, it sees peacemaking [38:48] as the way to resolve conflict in increasing levels of complexity as you go up the school year. [38:53] So, you know, little kids are taught to sing songs of peace. And as you go up [39:00] in the school year, the questions and the ideas become more complex. They are asked [39:07] to understand what peace means, how it can be gained if it can be gained. There is a great [39:14] deal of critical thinking in the Israeli curriculum, um, which is very much part of the [39:19] Jewish tradition as well. So, you know, within textbooks about, for instance, peacemaking, you know, [39:25] robust arguments can be expected and are expected in the schoolroom. Um, there is [39:32] a great deal of respect for the Israeli others. And so, you know, clearly, Israeli [39:39] Arabs are the, the major other, um, both, um, Christian Muslim and Jews as [39:46] well. Uh, and these others are taught to Israelis, who they are, what [39:53] their customs are. But ideas go well beyond religion to, to the political. So Israeli children [39:59] are, um, taught about political complexity. They are, for instance, in this [40:06] civics textbook, you know, the famous civics textbook that I alluded to of the Ministry of Education, [40:12] in that textbook they are offered a Palestinian perspective of 1948. They're essentially told, [40:18] you know, this is, if you like, the Zionist perspective of 1948. Um, you know, UN [40:25] declares, um, you know, makes a declaration. Um, nascent Israel, attacked by five armies and [40:32] battles won. Israel emerges. But they're also taught a Palestinian [40:39] view, um, of, and they are specifically told about Palestinians who either um [40:45] left or were forced to leave their homes. So, um, you know, quite a, a [40:53] hardcore education for young Israelis in the middle of a conflict. And so, by the way, if anyone [40:59] says you, you, you can't teach these ideas, um, in conflict. Well, Israeli kids are bang in the [41:05] middle of a conflict. They are, running to shelters. They, you know, God forbid, lost [41:11] friends over the last period of time. You know, they are immersed in this conflict. And yet [41:18] in school, they're taught peacemaking. They're taught other people's perspectives. They're taught to [41:23] respect the other. And it's quite a remarkable school curriculum, actually. To go back to the [41:30] difficulty that that we face in terms of getting any sort of lasting change here. [41:37] Um, the Palestinian prime minister stood up in a cabinet meeting and told and said, you [41:44] can cut off our water and our energy before we will change our school curriculum. I mean, that [41:50] that paints a pretty bleak picture about the possibility of change here. I mean, how negotiable [41:57] is this? No, it isn't. And exactly that line. And that goes back to what I'm [42:03] saying about, you know, this comes from the top. It's political. And even above him, you know. Abu [42:09] Mazen was presented this curriculum by by the Ministry of Education in 2016, um, [42:16] in the Muqata'a. And knowing, you know, exactly what the zeitgeist, [42:23] what the philosophy of his curriculum was because he, you know, he was part of the process and as you [42:28] say, absolutely. The Palestinian prime minister, in a cabinet meeting in Arabic, says to his colleagues [42:33] exactly that which you stated. And this is not then about education, is it? This is not about [42:40] pedagogy. This is absolutely political. This is absolutely strategic. This is absolutely we need [42:47] to indoctrinate generation after generation of young Palestinian Palestinian to be part of the [42:53] struggle, not to be part of peacemaking. There is never a horizon of the possibility [43:00] of peace. There is only ever the horizon of conflict and, in their view, [43:07] ultimate victory, but conflict. You know, one thing we always think about, about the school [43:12] curriculum, and what we always notice, um, is how dark it is. You know, school curricula aren't [43:17] necessarily dark. In fact, And they can be really quite light and lovely and, and, and, um, you [43:24] know, have really warm, um, ideas running through them, which, you know, make young people feel, feel [43:31] loved and feel, you know, a part of something bigger than themselves in a really positive way. [43:36] Palestinian curriculum, that doesn't happen. It is. It is dark. It is, um, you know, [43:43] dangerous because. Yeah, imagine the outrage if an American, you know, first grade textbook [43:49] was teaching that dying in in war is the ultimate sacrifice. It would be like. [43:57] Dying is better than living is the the piece of the exercise that you are referring to that in [44:03] fact, it's dying as a as a martyr is better than living a a [44:10] long and peaceful good life. And how old are the kids who are learning this? Um, [44:17] I'm not sure what grade that comes from. It's one of the higher grades. Um, and it is, you know, just again, [44:24] what a dark, sinister idea that is. Your death is more valuable to us than any possibility of you [44:31] living a quiet, happy, meaningful life. It really speaks to the, uh, you know, we've talked a [44:37] bunch on this on the show with other guests, Charles Small, for instance, about, like, the failure [44:42] of imagination of the West to see how deep these ideas are and how different [44:49] it is from, you know, this isn't this isn't people who are in an unfortunate economic situation [44:55] who are rising up against oppression. This is just so deeply embedded. Um, [45:02] you you don't just study the Middle East. You've turned those same standards on Europe, on France, [45:08] Sweden, Greece, Hungary, Ireland. What are you finding in Europe? What? What way is Europe moving? [45:15] Europe, um, is a mixed bag. I think it's fair to say, you know, you're, um. You know, we were pretty [45:22] interested in how they look at, um, Jews, Judaism, anti-Semitism, um, you [45:29] know, particularly because of the the rise of hate on the European continent. Um, and because, you know, [45:36] we made an assumption that they would be fairly aligned with those other UNESCO [45:43] standards. And, and I think, you know, vary from country to country. And [45:49] many countries are doing quite a good job. And so, you know, I would put Germany in that category, I would [45:55] put Hungary in that category, and Sweden, Greece, these are countries that are doing a [46:02] fairly good job, and there are countries that are doing a fairly good job, but because of the kind [46:08] of country they are, they could be doing better. And so, you know, France actually were put in that [46:13] category. You know, they do a really decent job of teaching about the Shoah. Um, but [46:19] and, and other elements, Judaism as a religion. Um, well, they don't teach um, enough, in [46:26] our view. And we had this conversation with the French Ministry of Education. And by the way, what [46:31] we are hoping, expecting to change fairly soon is the inclusion of such [46:37] a rich Jewish life in France for, you know, well over millennia. And so, you know, [46:44] that really does need to be included in curricula where that applies, you know, for young French [46:50] people to understand that Jews have been for a thousand years a part of [46:57] France, a part of, you know, French culture history. And, you know, really interesting ideas. So Rashi, [47:03] um, who, you know, biblical scholar who wrote in Hebrew. But but, you know, Rashi [47:10] used a great deal of French, medieval French in his [47:17] commentary. Um, and so, you know, for young people to know that French scholars of [47:23] medieval French, um, you know, sometimes go to Rashi to look at the [47:30] vocabulary he uses. How fascinating is that? And of course, you know, Maimonides, um, Rambam, [47:37] um, really should be a part of education for, for MENA, um, you know, a person who, um, [47:44] you know, was was part of the tapestry of Andalusia, um, but but also of Cairo. [47:50] And, you know, these are whole other conversations that we, that we have with folks. Um, and so again, [47:57] you're absolutely mixed bag, right? You know, the the the if you like. The bottom of that mixed bag [48:03] is Ireland, that, um, has a picture of Auschwitz. If you can believe this, [48:10] with a P.O.W. camp, a prisoner of war camp. That's disturbing. It's really disturbing. [48:17] And which identifies, um, in in an Irish textbook about religions, Judaism, [48:24] and of the three religions in it is talking about, um, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Judaism is the [48:31] only religion that it lists that, um, sees violence as legitimate and which [48:37] is, you know, a bizarre position to take. Um, in so many ways. Um, [48:44] our report on the Irish curriculum went to the Taoiseach, went to the the Prime Minister of Ireland. Um, [48:50] you know, we hope changes will be made that. But, you know, there were so many other issues with Ireland [48:55] that I, I, I'm sure you are well aware of, and people in your show have talked about. Um, [49:02] so I think in Europe really the big issue is, um, explaining anti-Semitism. I think, [49:09] um, young people in Europe increasingly are adopting [49:15] anti-Semitic ideas, using anti-Semitic memes and tropes and not understanding necessarily that [49:22] they are, not understanding necessarily that these ideas, tropes, memes have hundreds of years of [49:29] European history behind them. You know, the blood libel and the ideas which [49:36] some of the young Europeans are propagating today are, you know, a direct line to that. They need to [49:43] understand it. They need to understand what anti-Semitism is and its history, how [49:50] they are being lied to, essentially sucked into anti-Semitic ideas [49:56] because it is convenient for the people who are giving them these anti-Semitic ideas, because [50:03] often leaders, in order to maintain power, or people who want power, use anti-Semitism to do it, [50:09] and they are being manipulated in that process. These are ideas which they need to be taught. And, [50:16] you know, very few countries are teaching about anti-Semitism. I think what's really interesting, [50:21] by the way, are the 'Stans, as we, as we call them. Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, who, you know, [50:27] we have as an institute good relations with because they have produced, each one of them, [50:33] really good curricula. These are, um, Shia Muslim majority countries who [50:41] do teach about anti-Semitism, who do teach, um, really well about, uh, Jews and about [50:48] Judaism and and about the history of the creation of Israel. Um, I [50:55] think, you know, the Central Asian Shia majority countries could be a real lesson to some of these [51:01] European countries. And this is something actually, which, um, you know, we have communicated to some of [51:06] these countries. Look at this. Learn from this. This is something you could adopt to, in fact. And [51:12] you've alluded to this in, uh, Saudi Arabia. Your review, uh, that came out in July, showed [51:19] that there was some good news that there is reform and is more move towards [51:25] coexistence. Can you can you explain what you found there? Yeah, absolutely. Um, but if you, with [51:32] your permission, I'll actually start with the UAE. Yes, please. Yeah, yeah. I think it's fair to say that, um, [51:39] educational reform in, um, that part of the world and the Gulf really started with, um, the [51:45] Emirates and again, the leadership, um, Mohammed bin Zayed, who, you know, absolutely [51:51] understood the, the need for full education reform, the need to reform textbooks. Um, and they [51:58] created a school curriculum, um, which is quite remarkable, which embraces the other which does [52:04] not contain hate, um, which takes on moderate attitudes, which, um, [52:11] takes on, um, attitudes of, um, respecting minorities. You know, I think this is [52:18] very much part of Emirati culture, Emirati thinking, Emirati personality, but it is, you [52:24] know, quite remarkable, um, to see the evolution of Emirati textbooks and, and, you know, [52:31] a real pleasure to work with the Emiratis. The Saudis, um, you know, too, a remarkably [52:37] important country, uh, the country that, you know, holds Mecca and Medina and outside of [52:44] its own borders. You know, Saudi Arabia is really important to the Sunni Muslim world. And, um, [52:51] Saudi Arabia, beginning in 2020, underwent quite a [52:58] comprehensive reform of its school curriculum, reaching the point today that there is, as you [53:04] say, no anti-Semitism left in the Saudi Arabian school curriculum, and ideas towards Israel are [53:11] moderated. Gender is, um, absolutely improved in the textbooks. [53:18] Um, really a remarkable evolution of textbooks which, [53:24] um, embrace those international values that we are talking about. Respect for the other peacemaking [53:30] is the way to resolve conflict. Um, but if we look all the way across Mena to Morocco, you know, I [53:36] think Morocco is is also quite a remarkable example. Um, Morocco produced a [53:43] curriculum based on its 2011 constitutional reform. Um, and to me, you know, [53:49] the key element, you know, it absolutely uplifts women and girls. Um, it is in many [53:56] ways a curriculum which, you know, is, is entirely modern, um, entirely accepting of, of the [54:03] other. Um, but I think particularly the way it talks about, um, its Jewish community and its Amazigh. [54:09] Or, as people used to say, the Berber community in Morocco. Um, you know, I think it's quite lovely, [54:14] actually. It's it's a curriculum which embraces these communities, which talks about them as a key [54:21] part of the Moroccan tapestry. There is a picture of a Muslim family at a [54:28] clearly Jewish Friday night dinner. Mimouna is talked about. And again we were talking about [54:34] France and and Rashi. So actually in the Moroccan curriculum, they talk about, um, a [54:40] group of Jews who have been a key part of, um, you know, Morocco over a period of years. And [54:47] so, um, you know, really, really impressive. And we can see this reflected now in international [54:53] relations. I mean I think that's a pretty clear, uh, downstream effect. Absolutely. And then this [55:00] brings us back to curricula as both identifying the identities, the values [55:07] which rulers wish to pass down, but also curricula as political predictors. They are [55:12] telling us what these communities are going to be like, what these countries are going to be like, um, [55:16] 8, 9 or 10 years down the line. So you have said, uh, that [55:23] if it happened in Nazi Germany, it can happen in Hamas Gaza. That's that's [55:30] a hopeful thing to say that. And you're talking about the denazification. Um, and you've spent your [55:37] career reading the worst material anyone produces. Um, where where does your hope [55:44] come from? My hope comes from exactly that which we are discussing today. The the [55:51] absolute knowledge that change of curricula is not only [55:58] possible but doable, in country after country, and in some of those countries, they are [56:04] far enough down the line so that we can see that change in societies today. [56:11] Um, and yeah, I would even include Gaza in that, you know, the Nazi example is a pretty good one. One [56:18] of the first things that Hitler did when he was elected was change the textbooks. And, you know, he [56:25] had not that many years, um, you know, six years in order to, um, [56:32] create a society which was capable of the atrocities that, um, were committed by the [56:37] Einsatzgruppen, um, you know, who began to massacre Jews before, uh, the Wannsee Conference, before. [56:43] And, you know, the concentration camps came online and, um, yet [56:50] after the Second World War, there was a root and branch change in the German [56:56] educational system. And there again, we see a society, um, which [57:03] was subject to this educational system and then which, you know, emerged a a peaceful one and a [57:10] society, which was how can I put it less inclined to, um, massacre its Jews. [57:17] And so, you know, this is, um, you know, absolutely a lesson, a lesson that, um, we can, and [57:24] frankly we are seeing in Gaza now, there are schools in Gaza which, um, are [57:30] being, um, run by a certain organization. And, um, that organization [57:37] is teaching textbooks of peace and tolerance. So this is not something that's impossible in the [57:43] Palestinian Authority, uh, Territories. No, I would go further. I would say it's quite banal, [57:50] you know, as I was saying, you know, 2 billion children in school, there is nothing more, if you [57:55] like, you know, day to day routine, banal as school education. And yet the power of it is, is quite [58:02] remarkable. And, you know, children have no choice. They are stuck to that chair, to that desk. Day [58:09] after day, year after year. You know, it is it is compulsory. And you know, that is, I think why, [58:15] um, for instance, the Palestinian Authority, you know, sees school education as such a perfect way [58:21] of radicalizing and indoctrinating young people, but it is also the perfect way to create those [58:27] societies of peace and tolerance. And what they are taught today is who they are going to be [58:34] tomorrow. Simple as that. If you had one thing to tell, uh, the, the UN General Assembly is now, [58:40] uh, how would you say that assembled? Yes, exactly. The UN General Assembly is now assembled. If you [58:46] had if you had the opportunity to go in front of the the world stage and give one [58:52] recommendation, what would it be? It would be really very simple [58:59] indeed. Um, take the hate out of textbooks. You, the UN, [59:06] are directly involved in teaching. Make sure that all constituent [59:13] countries are teaching curricula of peace and tolerance. And I would say, frankly, [59:19] particularly make absolutely sure that Jews and [59:25] Judaism are protected in these curricula because the [59:32] power of the curricula to teach hate, particularly about Jews, is something that we have [59:39] seen time and time again. It's possible to stop it, and they have the power to do it. Marcus Sheff, [59:45] thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much Ben. It's been a real pleasure. [59:55] A child can't opt out of a math problem. Same desk, same chair. Day after day, [60:02] year after year. It's compulsory. And that cuts both ways. The same routine that [60:09] teaches a six year old the word for martyr could also teach that same child something else. And for [60:15] anyone who thinks you can't teach peace in the middle of a war, Israeli kids are running to the [60:21] shelters, and Israel's Education Ministry puts out a civics textbook that walks them through the [60:27] Palestinian view of 1948, including the Palestinians who left or were forced to leave [60:33] their homes. So the war is not the reason. As he put it, this isn't a question of [60:40] teaching. It's a question of politics and political decisions can be unmade. I asked him [60:45] what he'd say if he had one minute in front of the UN General Assembly, and he didn't need the [60:51] minute. Take the hate out of the textbooks. You're directly involved in teaching, because what [60:58] children are taught today is who they're going to be tomorrow. You can read every one of IMPACT-se's [61:04] reports for yourself at impact-se. Links are in the description. And if this [61:11] episode gave you something to think about, do me a favor. Leave the show a rating and a review on [61:16] Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. It's the single biggest thing that helps new people find us. [61:23] If you're not already subscribed, hit the notification bell and follow HonestReporting on [61:29] Instagram, X, TikTok and Facebook. I'm Ben Chertoff. This is The Honest Take. And we'll see you next [61:35] time.
