Transcript [00:00] And I realized that the language that was coming out of campuses at that point was like [00:05] 99% identical to the language the Soviet Union had produced in the wake of the [00:12] Six-Day War. Once you proved that the Zionists are like Nazis, then everything else becomes possible. [00:18] Everything flows from there. Because who are Nazis? Nazis are the secular devil. And so if you could [00:24] prove that Jews are the devil, then you can essentially charge them with anything and people [00:30] will believe it. Welcome to The Honest Take, the show that goes [00:37] past the headlines to find out what's actually true about Israel, and about the people covering [00:42] it. I'm Ben Chertoff, and my guest today is Izabella Tabarovsky, a historian of Soviet [00:48] propaganda, who went looking for the paper trail behind the slogans on American campuses and found [00:54] it. In 2018, Izabella [01:01] Tabarovsky saw students on an American campus holding signs. Zionism is racism. Israel is [01:08] an apartheid state. Something about them seemed off. A recognition she couldn't place. So she [01:15] called her father and he said, look, we've heard all of this before. Now, every conversation I've [01:21] had about where campus anti-Zionism comes from ends in the same place. Postcolonial theory, [01:28] Foucault, Derrida, Fanon ā a family tree of ideas. Tabarovsky [01:35] points somewhere else entirely ā not influence, not descent. The same product built on [01:42] purpose by a state and shipped because the Soviet Union didn't just dislike Israel, it [01:48] assigned the problem to institutes and told them to build a scientific sounding case against [01:54] Zionism. Footnotes. Endnotes. Citations to Hannah Arendt. Citations to Herzl. So Tabarovsky [02:01] sat in the National Library of Israel and checked them one at a time. The footnotes [02:08] are fake. Real quotes turn to mean the opposite of what they meant. The scholarship was [02:14] never the point. It was the costume. And today we follow it out of Moscow and [02:21] into a UN resolution, into Mahmoud Abbas's dissertation, into an American Communist Party [02:27] book that somebody quietly re-serialized for young readers one month after October 7th. [02:34] And then the part that makes this urgent. This isn't a museum piece. There's a socialist revival [02:41] in American politics right now, and the rocket fuel underneath its ascendancy is anti-Zionist [02:48] activism. The DSA platform puts Gaza in the same paragraph as your rent is too high. [02:55] Izabella Tabarovsky grew up inside the system that wrote that sentence first. She's a fellow at the [03:01] Wilson Center, a senior fellow at the Z3 Institute, a contributing writer at Tablet Magazine, and the author of Be a Refusenik. [03:08] Izabella Tabarovsky, welcome to The Honest Take. It's great to be here. [03:14] Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. I want to start before we get into the [03:20] anti-Zionism part that we're going to talk about. For most of this, I wanted to start with your [03:26] story and what it was like for you. I mean, I'm sure we could spend a podcast talking about this [03:31] specifically, but what was it like for you growing up in Siberia behind the Iron Curtain? [03:39] So, you know, I always say, I always start by saying that I was born in 1970. I'm not. I've long [03:46] abandoned any embarrassment about dating myself because I want people to understand the era that [03:50] I grew up in. Born in 1970, in the say in the the suburb of Novosibirsk. Novosibirsk [03:57] is a pretty big industrial city in Siberia, but we lived in its suburb, which was associated with [04:03] science. There was a university, there were a lot of research institutes. It was known as Academy [04:07] City and we lived there. I lived there until around 87, when I moved to Moscow to go to school, [04:14] to college for two years. And then in 1989, we emigrated. So this was my life. I was sort of I [04:21] called myself sometimes the last part of the last Soviet generation, you know, coming of age during [04:26] perestroika. And then essentially, you know, if we hadn't left, I would have seen the end of the [04:30] Soviet Union in 1991. You know, it was a very Jewish city, but Jewish in what sense? There was [04:36] nothing, uh, that you would associate with Judaism. There were no synagogues. There were you would [04:43] never see any signs of you wouldn't see a mezuzah on the door. You wouldn't see anybody wearing, you [04:50] know, kippahs. But there were a lot of Jews in Soviet science, and so we were [04:56] surrounded by other Jewish families whose only identification who's who had very strong Jewish [05:02] identity. But if you asked any of us what it really meant to be Jewish. I don't know if it [05:08] would have been if we would have been able to really answer this question. Certainly not my [05:13] generation, because by then Jews had been so profoundly assimilated, [05:20] especially in, in in a place like this that was dedicated to science, you know, where there had [05:26] never been a very strong Jewish community or history before, you know, in Ukraine or in the [05:32] Baltic republics, where there had historically been large Jewish populations, you still had [05:38] people who spoke Hebrew, you still had people who went to synagogues or who remembered [05:45] what it was like to go to synagogue. Where I grew up. There was none of it. And so, you know, I often [05:51] say that growing up as a Soviet child, at that time, we all kind of learned, imbibed the [05:57] dogma that the Soviet Union was a country where that consisted of many different peoples [06:03] nationalities. They all had their traditions. And I could probably tell you, you know, I could talk to [06:09] you about Uzbek cuisine, or I could probably dance a Ukrainian dance for you. I could describe a [06:15] Belarusian national costume. But if you ask me, what about any of this is related to Jews? I think [06:21] I would have been surprised to hear this question. It just wasn't part of my awareness that being [06:26] Jewish entailed anything special about it. And so essentially, my Jewish identity [06:33] was based in the in the knowledge that being Jewish meant that I was different and [06:40] that it made me open to anti-Semitism and in particular, um, some teasing [06:47] from children in schools or people in the streets, but also and less so in the school for me, because [06:53] again, because it was a very heavily Jewish place. But but in the streets, you certainly heard it [06:58] sometimes. And then when entering college then that I knew that [07:05] there I faced an obstacle just because I was Jewish. Yeah. You had written that the [07:13] math division of the Academy was that that anti-Semitism was a fact of life. I mean, how how [07:19] does that phrase work out in, in practical reality? And did everyone know about this or was this [07:26] just Jews kind of felt it and other people didn't weren't conscious of it? Well, [07:33] so the math department, you know, it's a really interesting point, actually, because it tells you [07:39] that, you know, there was a policy of essentially state, uh, state [07:46] driven anti-Semitism in the country, state sponsored anti-Semitism. But the way it was [07:51] implemented in every place was a little bit different, and it depended on who was in charge. [07:57] And so the people in charge of the math departments of the field [08:03] of math studies in the Soviet Union at that time were known for not loving Jews. And so and [08:10] this I actually learned more about it already after I left. There were there are other people [08:14] who've published really excellent research about it. Uh, Jewish kids, when they wanted to enter math [08:21] departments in at universities, were given problems, special [08:27] problems at the entrance exams that were known as coffin problems. They were known as coffin [08:32] problems because they would bury you. Now, you could ask again, how would the the commission, the entrance commission [08:38] at the university know that you were Jewish because you're not wearing a kippah. [08:44] You're not wearing tzitzit. How do you know that? Well, first of all, your documents, your [08:49] internal documents said that you were a Jew. But not every Jew's document said that they were [08:54] Jewish. And sometimes people managed to, you know, to change that. But really, you were recognized as [09:00] a Jew basically by your facial features. And sometimes it's, you know, for Americans, sometimes [09:05] it's hard to understand. I often say it to, to Americans that they would say, well, what do you [09:11] mean? What does a Jew look like? And and it was, you know, in the USSR, you were just if you had those [09:17] kind of stereotypical Jewish features which you could call Mediterranean features, you would [09:22] immediately be recognized as a Jew. So anyway, so Jewish students would be given problems that [09:28] often did not really have a solution, like super, super hard problems. So this is how they would [09:34] control the number of Jews that would enter the profession. It's it it is outright racism is what [09:41] it sounds like. I mean, what Americans would, would understand as racism. Well, that's exactly right. [09:46] And you know what's interesting about your Jewish. What was interesting about our Jewish identity at [09:52] the time is I think it was very much, you know, in the absence of any other knowledge, religion, [09:57] history, language. You know, when you are recognized as Jewish from your face, it essentially becomes a [10:04] racial identity. You know, it's the only identity you have. And it created, you know, when we moved to [10:11] the US, it took a little bit of time to realize that actually, in America, it works differently. And, [10:17] you know, for me to start developing a thicker Jewish identity and to start learning, uh, because, [10:23] yeah, the difference was very, very radical in how you identified yourself. Yeah, it was it was a [10:30] state imposed identity as well. I mean, as you said, it was on your documents. It's it's my [10:36] understanding. And this might be simplifying the whole thing, but it said on on Russian passport, [10:41] Soviet passports that Jewish instead of whatever nationality you were. It literally [10:47] was your identity. Well that's right. And I should say that everybody, you know, the Soviet [10:54] state was really obsessed with all the different nationalities and ethnic groups that that the [10:59] country was made up of. And it was really important for the authorities to know who [11:05] belonged to which nationality or ethnicity. And so everybody's ethnicity was stamped on their [11:10] internal documents, on their internal passport, but only for Jews. It was essentially a a [11:18] mark that opened you to discrimination at various various places at various stages of your life. [11:25] Was this, in some ways an extension of the 19th century [11:31] anti-Semitism that so many, so many Jews fled from in the Pale of Settlement? I mean, [11:37] is there a through line from that? Well, I think it's complex. I think, [11:44] you know, at the grassroots level, uh, kind of grassroots anti-Semitism. Yes. For sure. There is [11:51] a through line from there. You know, in terms of state policy, um, it's complex because the [11:58] Bolsheviks actually came to power announcing that they were against anti-Semitism, you know, [12:04] Lenin said that, you know, anti-Semitism belongs with the ruins of the old world, you know, socialism. He [12:11] believed that or announced declared, uh, you know, in theory that socialism was going to, [12:18] that anti-Semitism would wither away under socialism because socialism, right under socialism, [12:23] everybody is equal. Uh, socialism doesn't tolerate any form of racial or any kind of [12:29] discrimination. And so, as I said, anti-Semitism would just go away, which of course it didn't, you know, [12:35] but but then the Bolsheviks were also at the same time, were anti-Zionist, and [12:42] the Soviet state was always anti-Zionist. And I think that this is where the some of the [12:49] complication begins. You know, so so they weren't against Jews as Jews, although they did expect [12:55] Jews to to assimilate. They wanted them. They planned to. They thought that Jews. Jews aren't [13:02] a nation. They said that was based on Marxist thought, because Jews, [13:09] we don't have to get into it. But they said the Jews are not a nation. They don't have their own [13:14] republic. So, for example, let's say Ukraine or Tajikistan or Georgia, you [13:20] know, that's a nation, you know, that's a people that lives together. They speak the same language. [13:25] They, um, you know, they have they share territories. Okay. That's a nation. Jews don't have any of it. So [13:32] they're not a nation, so they just need to assimilate. Uh, and that was the plan. What starts, really, [13:38] is fighting Zionism. Fighting Zionism proactively. Once it becomes. Once they [13:45] start viewing Zionism as a serious ideological enemy, then that also influences the authorities [13:52] view of Jews. Because essentially then all Jews become suspect of Zionist loyalties. [13:59] And and that's why that's why, you know, at the time where I was born, when I was born, at the time [14:05] when I was growing up, that was really the idea. You know, it was important for them that I was [14:10] Jewish because they viewed Israel as a American puppet [14:17] in the Middle East and etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Again, we can get into it. But but they just didn't [14:23] they didn't want Zionists. They didn't want Zionists in their academy or in any positions of [14:28] power, certainly not in positions of influence where they might be interacting with foreigners, [14:34] because that could be really dangerous. So. So this is, you know, that's what, uh, it's a mix of, uh, [14:40] motivations. So you've written about the concept of doublethink, which I think people [14:47] who, you know, from Orwell would, would, would remember that term. How did that [14:54] how did that manifest in, in a real life situation as somebody growing up with it? [15:02] Yeah. Well, and and I'll say that Natan Sharansky wrote also extensively about it. [15:09] Um, look, how did it manifest? Uh, you know, so in my family, you [15:15] know, it was very typical that, for example, I would come home and I would tell my parents what I had [15:22] been taught in school, and then my dad would give me a lecture about, uh, the [15:28] truth, you know, about what was really, in fact, true as opposed to what I had been taught, you know. And [15:35] so. So then you hold within you these two stories, you know, so at school, you [15:42] can't really share what you've learned at home because you know, that it's, you know, it's not as [15:47] dangerous as it would have been under Stalin, but it's still not something that would be welcome, [15:51] you know, and you might get punished and you might get shamed in front of everybody. You might get [15:55] laughed at. And so you just keep quiet about that, you know. And so that creates sort of this [16:02] doublethink, you know, and like all Soviet children, I went through all these stages of [16:09] young, um, at first you join, uh, there are different youth organizations that you join when you grow [16:16] up. The children of the of October, basically. That's before you become a pioneer. Then you [16:21] become a young pioneer, then you become a member of the Komsomol. Um, and, you know, throughout all of [16:28] it you are given certain received truths about communism and the Soviet Union. And so you take [16:34] all of that on and you wear all the symbols that are associated with it, like the red scarf that [16:40] the pioneers wear or the special pin that the Komsomol members wear. Uh, but, you know, but but [16:47] you don't take any of it seriously because you know that all of it is a lie. And so you come to [16:52] all these meetings, all these young precursor to party meetings, right? Young Komsomol members get [16:58] together. They're supposed to solve all these crucial questions facing the Komsomol youth. But [17:05] you're sitting there and you you know, obviously you didn't have iPhones then, but you're just [17:10] you're daydreaming. You're you're reading a book or you are, you know, secretly corresponding with a [17:16] friend in the back, you know, so so this is what it is really. You never really betray who you are. And [17:22] it's like everybody knows by then, you know, 70s and 80s, everybody already knows that. No one takes any [17:28] of it seriously, but you still keep playing the game. And so that's really what it is. [17:34] So let's get into this Soviet origins of modern anti-Zionism. So like most people, [17:40] myself included, have understood this as something that kind of descended from [17:47] Soviet propaganda, that it was a recycled thing or a product of it, an echo. But reading your work and [17:54] especially your your essays in Tablet, like your Zombie Anti-Zionism piece, it [18:01] it seems like it's something much more direct that this is actual Soviet [18:07] propaganda that was transmitted to the West in the 70s, [18:14] 80s and 90s and has, I guess, more 70s and 80s and has like found a found a [18:21] footing and metastasized. And now we're seeing the actual Soviet propaganda [18:28] still alive today. Can you explain that through line and how like how unified [18:35] that thread is? Sure. So I should probably say how I first started researching it [18:42] because it's it's relevant. So I came to America in 1990 and I [18:48] spent some 20 years in America not thinking about anything related to [18:54] anti-Semitism. I never experienced it really at all. And [19:01] until one moment I think it was around 2018 when I suddenly on more than 20 years, this [19:08] is more than 25 years. And when I suddenly saw an item on the news, uh, with young people on, on [19:15] a campus carrying signs that said Zionism is racism, Israel is [19:22] an apartheid state. And it was the first time that I saw something like that uh, in America. [19:29] And it's, uh, you know, it's sort of it triggered some kind of memory or some recognition which I [19:35] couldn't really put my finger on. Um, and so I called my dad and told him about it, and I said [19:41] that, you know, they, by the way, they're also saying that they're not being anti-Semitic. They're just [19:45] being anti-Zionist. And I'm telling him this not because I'm telling him this. Because I'm trying [19:50] to understand what is it that I'm recalling? You know, what is it that I'm really why why does this [19:55] seem so strange? And I immediately associated with with something anti-Semitic or an anti-Semitic [20:00] expression. And my dad said, look, we've heard all of this before. You know, this is so it was the [20:07] first inkling that I had that this was something that had a Soviet connection to it. And so I [20:13] started looking into it, and I noticed and I realized that the language that was coming out of [20:19] campuses at that point was like 99%, uh, identical to the language [20:26] that the Soviet Union had produced in the wake of the Six-Day War. And my next thought was that, you [20:31] know what? You don't just reinvent language like that from scratch, you know? My thought was that [20:36] there must have been a link. There must have been channels of transmission, because you just can't. [20:41] It's really idiosyncratic language. You know, the language that equates Zionism with imperialism, [20:47] colonialism, racism, fascism, Nazism, all the things that we're hearing today. It's you don't just [20:53] reinvent it. Um, and and so I identified, in fact, there were channels of transmission [21:00] that for the Soviets at some point, Zionism becomes a really kind of [21:07] they view Zionism as a really dangerous ideological enemy, and they invent this whole [21:12] story around what Zionism is, how Zionism is in cahoots with, uh, the Soviet Union's greatest Cold [21:19] War enemy, which is the United States. And so a whole set of sort of this conspiratorial [21:26] views about Zionism develops. They charge a number of academic [21:33] institutions with developing theories that would support these ideas, to make it look scientific, to [21:39] make it sound scientific. They develop relationships with other institutions abroad so [21:45] that they can jointly keep developing these theories. And I should say that, you know, the [21:49] Soviets didn't just invent this on their own. There were, I think, that there were kind of two [21:56] way. The influence was two ways. So they were with different with different groups and, and [22:01] organizations and constituencies. So we know that the Soviets were very close with the Arab states. [22:06] And the Arab states, of course, had their own anti-Zionist propaganda, their own ideas about [22:11] Zionism as colonialism. And we know that, at least in some cases, Soviet propagandists were borrowing [22:18] from Arab propaganda. But and I think now that they probably also borrowed. It's like it's not [22:24] only that leftist intellectuals took ideas from the Soviets. I think leftist intellectuals also [22:30] produced their own ideas that the Soviets then took on and integrated into it to their whole, you [22:36] know, perspective on Zionism. But what they did that was so powerful is that they kind of melded [22:42] it all together, processed it, and and turned it into this unified view, essentially, of the [22:49] evil of Zionism, and then sold it back to the world as something really, well, kind of [22:55] streamlined and developed with well-developed slogans and memes and tropes and [23:02] stories. And because their power was really in having this access to, you know, [23:08] this massive propaganda machine and having influence in, in multiple, many, many organizations [23:15] and countries throughout the world, you know, because after essentially when Khrushchev came to [23:19] power, they set themselves the goal of, um, bringing the newly independent post-colonial [23:26] states into their sphere of influence. And they do it very successfully, to the detriment of the [23:31] United States and the West. They have enormous influence in the UN, so they work through the UN. [23:36] We, of course, in 75 the the resolution equating it with racism is adopted. So they're working through [23:42] left wing parties, communist parties and just left wing parties in the West and elsewhere which they [23:48] finance. These parties publish their own, um, have their own publications which from 1967 [23:55] begin to publish. Articles about Zionism and Israel that very much speak [24:02] in this, in this um, uh, Soviet idiom. So, uh, so these are, these are the many [24:09] kind of channels of influence that they use. You know, they bring together young people to various [24:15] youth festivals where they also introduce anti-Zionist slogans, uh, you know, with [24:20] participation of prominent people like Angela Davis, you know, who, uh, condemn, uh, Israel and [24:27] extol Palestine. And obviously, Angela Davis is still with us. And there are others like that. So [24:32] so this is, you know, it's it's a very complex, uh, uh, process that they engage [24:39] in order to demonize, uh, Zionism in Israel. It's it's astounding how much energy to that the [24:46] Soviet Union put into this that they, they had, uh, it was a directive [24:52] on further measures to fight anti-Soviet and anti-communist activities of international [24:58] Zionism. And out of that came a commission for the scientific criticism of Zionism. I mean, [25:05] this was, uh, one of the things that I found fascinating in your writing is how you talk about [25:11] the way that social sciences were used as political weapons. And it [25:17] especially as an antecedent of what we're seeing today in the academy. But can you can you explain [25:24] that, um, that Soviet method of using the social sciences in that way? [25:32] Sure. Well, so first of all, the Soviets, um, in general viewed social [25:38] sciences as their, um, I guess, you know, they they didn't view them as [25:45] sciences in the sense that they're supposed to pursue truth, right? That they're supposed to [25:50] explain reality and find answers to crucial questions in the most truthful way possible. They [25:56] were supposed to serve the socialist enterprise and whatever ideology they were pursuing in any [26:03] given moment. So, uh, philosophy was very much, uh, under the heel of the Communist [26:09] Party. Uh, sociology, history, essentially all of these, uh, sciences, which is why [26:17] they had very few Jews in them, because Jews were just not trusted enough. Or [26:23] if they were there, they essentially were forced especially to perform certain ideological tasks [26:30] such as, uh, you know, attacking Israel specifically from using their Jewish identity, which sounds so [26:36] familiar to us today. Yeah, but but yeah, once they identify Zionism as [26:43] a particularly dangerous ideological enemy, which happens after Israel's victory in the Six-Day War, [26:49] they appoint several, uh, institutions, what we probably would call today [26:56] think tanks, uh, which again, not real think tanks. They're there to provide kind of policy advice [27:02] and foreign policy advice. Uh, that would be that would serve the Communist Party. And they set [27:09] up a special, uh, department to deal with Israel, but again, not to understand Israel, but to [27:16] develop this kind of the ideology that would justify what the propaganda is already saying. [27:23] And so there is. Look, when you are an employee of the state and [27:29] your salary depends on the state, and your well-being depends on the state, the well-being of [27:35] your family depends on the state. You know, we were talking earlier about doublethink. It takes an [27:40] exceptionally independently minded person to say no to ideological demands. And basically [27:47] you could do that. And but you would have to know that this would basically be the end of your [27:52] career. Again, these are not style in these times. Nobody is going to take you out and execute you, [27:57] but you would lose your job, you know, or something worse might happen. You may get harassed by the [28:03] KGB if you're particularly stubborn. They may put you into a psychiatric institution, uh, you know, to [28:10] treat you against your wrong ideas. You know. So? So it's dangerous. It's very dangerous. Nobody wants [28:16] to risk that. So a priori, when you enter these fields, you have to agree that [28:23] you're going to toe the line that the state assigns you. And and then, you know, when you look [28:29] at the anti-Zionist literature that these institutions were producing, it's really [28:33] interesting. They look like bona fide academic volumes. You know, they have [28:40] footnotes and endnotes. They have all these scientific, scholarly kind of explanations, [28:45] scholarly language. And when I first started reading them, I saw I spent a lot of time with [28:51] them at the National Library of Israel, where there is a ton of this literature. And when I [28:57] first started reading them, I saw that they would sometimes like they would reference Hannah Arendt [29:02] or they would reference Herzl, they would reference all these, you know, you could see that [29:08] they were they had access to commentary. They would reference something that they read in [29:12] commentary. Yes, it's very interesting that the guys at Commentary would be delighted to hear [29:17] that. But what? So. First of all, this told me that these are the people who wrote these [29:24] books, had access to literature and journalism that were not available to everybody else. And [29:31] this is in fact, true. You know, we know that historians, Russian historians who have looked at [29:37] the archives, uh, tell us that, yes, this group of scholars that were supposed to justify the anti-Zionist policies [29:44] of, of the Kremlin had access to special collections of books [29:50] and journals and magazines. But then I would look at the footnotes and I would say, see, you have to [29:56] be a real nerd to do this work. I would look at the footnotes and I'd be like, well, is that really [30:02] is that really what Hannah Arendt said? Is this really what Herzl said? Is this really what [30:06] this or that writer said? And so I started checking the original sources. And so what you see there is [30:13] that the footnotes completely distort the source material. So they would take out [30:19] or they would take a quote out of context. And, and so that in their interpretation, the [30:26] quote means something completely different from the way it is. It was meant by the original author. [30:32] And so the method then emerges. You know, you could ask, why did they need all these footnotes? Why did [30:37] they need all these notes? They could just write whatever they wanted. But no, it was important for [30:42] them to look scholarly because I think they were addressing themselves to educated people, but they [30:49] were also and they were also addressing themselves to foreign audiences, to foreign [30:54] academics, to foreign journalists. And so they wanted to look, you know, scholarly. It was very [31:00] kind of for socialists. Like, Soviet socialism was very scholarly. It was supposed to be scholarly, [31:06] scientific. And so they create this whole, um, you know, this whole like, [31:13] huge lie, basically that's built on distortions and decontextualized quotes and [31:19] footnotes, etc.. And this is really how it was built. I found it astounding to learn [31:26] that Mahmoud Abbas, who is now the head of Fatah, had done [31:33] his own studies in these very institutions and wrote his dissertation on this [31:39] specifically. And, as you said, using the same sort of like deep, decontextualized quotes. [31:46] Right, exactly. So yes, he, uh, came he studied at the Institute of, [31:53] um, the Patrice Lumumba University of Friendship of the Peoples. And a lot of times, people who [32:00] write about it make a mistake here. They say that he defended his dissertation there, but that's [32:04] actually not the case. He was accepted there because that was kind of the central place where [32:10] promising members of the pro-Soviet elites were brought in and [32:17] educated and propagandized. But at the Patrice Lumumba, they didn't give. They couldn't. [32:24] You couldn't defend your dissertation, your doctoral dissertation. There. He defended his [32:28] dissertation at the Institute of Oriental Studies, which was at the time headed by Primakov, who was [32:34] a Soviet spymaster and Arabist and expert in the in the Middle East, in the Arab [32:41] world, and specifically the issue that was specifically part of that cohort of institutions [32:47] that was tasked with creating scholarly justifications for, um, [32:54] for the anti-Zionist propaganda. So what's interesting about his dissertation is, you know, [33:01] this is here's another kind of, Um, fact about the mechanics of how it was [33:07] done. When you look at the people who were in his dissertation committee who essentially [33:14] approved his dissertation. You look at them and you look at their backgrounds, and you see that [33:19] none of them are experts on Jewish history, on the Holocaust and World War two, on Israel. They're [33:26] essentially all of them are Arabists. So they assign an Arab revolutionary fighter to a group [33:31] of Arabists to approve his dissertation. But his dissertation is actually about Jewish history. [33:38] It's about the founding of the state of Israel. It's about the Holocaust. It's about World War Two. [33:43] And what happened to Jews then. And it's a complete distortion, and it's a distortion that [33:48] follows directly what Soviet propaganda said about said about all of those issues. [33:56] So it's, you know, we don't know who actually wrote his dissertation. Uh, some people say he did it [34:01] himself. If he did it himself. You know, again, it was an amazing act of a [34:08] replication of what the Soviets said. You know, you look at his references and it's all of the [34:15] Soviet anti-Zionist literature, some of which is openly anti-Semitic. I personally don't believe [34:21] that he wrote it himself. I mean, it was written. You know, it was written in Russian. Originally, it [34:27] was written in the exact idiom that the Soviet state used a I mean, it could be [34:34] that that he, um, he probably participated in it, but then he had helpers who helped him frame [34:40] it in the kind of idiom that would make it acceptable to the Soviet establishment, the Soviet [34:46] academic establishment. So, uh, so yeah, it's a really interesting example. Yeah, especially with [34:52] the doublethink because, you know, here's Abbas, whose lineage [34:59] stretches back to the Mufti and, um, you know, actually who actually had his [35:06] connections to, well, very close connections to Hitler. And then, you know, Abbas is writing about [35:12] how Jews are the actual Nazis. A lot of that goes back to the, um, the [35:18] conspiracy theory involving Eichmann, which is kind of the distortion of desperate Jews trying [35:25] to get Jews out of Germany that was then turned into this. What is it an idea that that Jews [35:31] created the Holocaust or Jews had? Well, right. Not Jews, but [35:38] Zionists. This is what's important to the Zionists, right? The Zionists collaborated with the Nazis in [35:44] the Holocaust. So this is how the Soviets and also Abbas interpret this whole, [35:50] um, you know, time period when the Nazis come to power and the Zionists in the, in the [35:57] Yishuv, essentially the Jews who are in the in pre-state Palestine, the establishment, the [36:04] institutions are trying to help the German Jews out there negotiating with the Nazi regime for it [36:10] to release some of the Jews. And so this gets interpreted as collaboration, right? But but of [36:17] course, there is a big difference between negotiating for somebody's release and [36:20] collaborating with them. And his dissertation also retells the story of Kastner, which is [36:27] in in an extremely distorted way, which, you know, Kastner was just was a Hungarian Jew, [36:34] a member of the Zionist group in Hungary who was trying to save Jews [36:41] from the Nazis. And, you know, it's a very painful and complex story. Obviously, a lot of Hungarian, [36:47] most Hungarian Jews perished in Auschwitz. So there are a lot of accusations of that. Kastner [36:53] actually saved his own. And and he could have saved many more. So it's a very painful point for [36:59] the Jewish people, you know, and the Soviets understood very, very well that you can use this [37:05] kind of moments of fracture. Right. This painful points where the truth isn't where [37:12] things aren't black and white, they can take it and tell the story in a tendentious way. That and [37:18] then weaponize it against the people themselves. Right. And so so instead of this having been said [37:25] of this being a tragedy, it's presented as an act of intentional treachery and intentional [37:30] collaboration with the Nazis, again, in an attempt to show that, and this is really the point of [37:36] Abbas's dissertation, is that Zionists collaborated with the Nazis, and it's really [37:42] important for the Soviets to, uh, to they repeat this point again and again and again. And I [37:49] think that this is kind of the original and most important libel leveled against Zionism, In my [37:56] view, because once you prove or if you manage to prove that the Zionists are like Nazis, then [38:02] everything else becomes possible. Everything flows from there. Because who are Nazis? Nazis are for, [38:08] you know, it's like the secular devil. And so if you can prove the Jews are the devil in a secular [38:14] way, then you can essentially, you know, charge them with anything and people will believe it. It also [38:20] gives you a powerful method to divorce anti-Semitism from anti-Zionism, because you can [38:25] say, well, look, there are the anti-Semites, which is. Exactly. Mind warping wild. [38:32] But yes, that's exactly right. And, you know, another really interesting thing in the as I was reading [38:38] the dissertation, I came across a passage that I also had seen it in other Soviet literature where [38:45] they would say, uh, so Zionists had a right to go into concentration [38:51] camps and ghettos and pick out who they could take with them to [38:58] Palestine. You know, and I was like, what are they talking about? What is this? And then I understood. [39:03] I looked at the names that they were referencing and essentially. And basically these were Jews who [39:08] were part of the Judenrat, you know, the Jewish councils. Why did they call them Zionist? You see, [39:15] here's another sleight of hand. Why don't they just call them Jews? They call them Zionists because [39:21] before the war they participated in the Zionist youth movements. You know, at some point these were [39:26] very widespread, right? But when they put it this way, that these were Zionists who had access, [39:33] access to the ghettos and, and you're like, wow, uh, you know, if you if you are not the kind of nerd [39:40] that wants to go and look at the footnotes, then, uh, you know, then you're like, wow, look at that. The [39:44] Zionists really collaborated with the Nazis during the Holocaust. So it's it's like it's, you [39:49] know, it's these it's this classic propaganda technique when you take, uh, you know, you, you [39:56] insert a lie into a context that is true and recognizable. And because the context is [40:02] recognizable, you then think you believe the lie as well. It has so much echoes of every other [40:09] conspiracy theory where you take these little bits of anomaly and then, you know, that's that's [40:15] all your foundation, and you ignore all the fact and evidence around it. Exactly. You talk a lot [40:22] about and we've talked here about the inflection point of 67 and the Six-Day War. [40:28] Politically, what about 67 really made that change? And was there any of this [40:35] anti-Zionism present beforehand? So so anti-Zionism really was always there. It [40:42] just changed its colors, you know, so it's um, it changed with times and rulers and, [40:49] and ideological priorities. So the anti-Zionism of early Stalin and Lenin was different from the [40:56] anti-Zionism of late Stalin, and it was different from the anti-Zionism of Brezhnev and Andropov, [41:03] who was the head of the KGB, who became the head of the KGB right after. I believe right, right ā right before [41:08] the Six-Day War in May of 67. Uh, so, uh, this the Six-Day War becomes this [41:15] turning point in many ways, because the Soviets by then have already been the allies of the [41:22] Arab states, uh, for and the benefactor, really of the of the Arab states for, for a very long time [41:29] from the 50s. Uh, and they are, um, arming and financing [41:36] and training, uh, the armies of the Arab states. And so throughout that whole spring [41:43] of 67, as you know, there are reports of growing, uh, a growing threat of confrontation and growing [41:50] tensions. Soviet papers are essentially ā they're certain that Israel will not withstand [41:57] an assault because they know how much had been invested. And when Israel wins. It really [42:04] creates a crisis in Moscow because they suddenly they can't really understand. How is it that such [42:10] a small country could win against, you know, these big Arab states, which they know how much they [42:16] invested in them? Um, and, you know, and then the this the secret services, the KGB, [42:23] essentially, and all the various intelligence agencies, uh, begin to connect the dots. You know, [42:28] and I always say that we have to understand that the Soviet state, the culture of the Soviet state, [42:35] the political culture was fundamentally prone to conspiracy theories as any kind of totalitarian [42:42] or highly authoritarian state where citizen citizens are not really part of the political [42:47] process and the political process is not transparent to you, right? That already creates [42:53] preconditions, really favorable conditions for conspiracy theories. Again, this I think the fact [42:58] that Zionists had always been under suspicion and in the late Stalin period, it was especially [43:04] become became this. That's when you really start to see conspiracy theories about Zionism [43:11] forming and becoming a weapon in the that the state wields against the Jews and Jewish [43:17] intelligentsia. Um, you know, all of that sort of comes together. So they, they look at Israel and [43:24] then they look at America and they say, well, surely Israel couldn't have won on its own. [43:29] America must have helped them because. Which is not true. In 67, America didn't help Israel. But [43:35] they look at America and they say, look at America. There are so many Jews there, and there are so [43:40] many Jews in positions of power there. Look at all the synagogues. And every synagogue has an Israeli [43:46] flag in it. And look at Jews in the media. Look there. They have Jews in politics and have Jews in [43:52] the banks. So clearly, you know, Jews have power, but most importantly, [43:58] Zionists have power. You know, they don't really. They try to avoid talking about Jews as Jews, uh, [44:04] because they understand really well that that makes them sound like the Nazis, or it makes them [44:09] sound like the, you know, the conspiracy theorists of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. So they [44:16] they're very careful to talk about Zionists. And so they say, look there, they're Zionists in [44:21] America. Uh, so clearly they helped, uh, Israeli Zionists win the war. And then there are other [44:28] things they see. So 67 is a turning point in other ways also. So 67, the Six-Day War becomes an [44:35] awakening for Soviet Jews. For many Soviet Jews who suddenly awakened to the realization [44:42] that being Jewish actually means something, right? It's not just having this nose that [44:49] identifies you as a Jew immediately. It's not just about being discriminated against as [44:56] a Jew. You're also you are also associated with the state that's out there somewhere. It calls itself [45:02] a Jewish state. And it creates kind of this burst of pride for many Jews. You know that [45:07] Sharansky writes about it very beautifully, but also, you know, all the the people, the [45:15] Soviet Jews of his generation. You know, it's basically my parents generation. Everybody I talk [45:20] to, they all say, yeah, that was a real turning point we all expected. They say that if Israel [45:27] lost that there would be a massive pogrom, that we would essentially be there would be violence [45:31] against us. But because Israel won. It was interesting. It had this like everybody sort of [45:37] all of the like everybody stood away and suddenly looked at them with respect. they suddenly said, [45:43] well, you were Jews. You were associated with Israel. Okay, maybe we respect you. And so there is [45:49] this sudden burst of pride, and the movement for emigration is born and a movement for ultimately, [45:55] this movement really was about Jewish identity. When, you know, a group of Soviet Jews decides that [46:00] they want to recover their the real meaning of their Jewish identity, [46:08] and as they do that so that that's already very suspicious to Soviet, to the KGB. [46:14] Uh, but then something else happens. They see that a movement in support of Soviet Jews arises in [46:21] the United States, in, in the UK, in France, in, in, in Australia. And this movement for [46:27] Soviet Jewry gives them a few other points, conspiratorial points to connect your points to [46:34] connect in a conspiratorial way. They say, look, this is this is what we're seeing internally is [46:40] clearly being inspired by foreign intelligence services because they are trying to undermine our [46:45] country from within. They are trying to undermine the unity of our country. And so this whole [46:50] movement for Soviet Jewry, there's no such thing as a grassroots movement. It's obviously inspired [46:56] by Zionists, and it's Zionists trying to undermine our country because Zionism is anti-communist. [47:02] It's anti-socialist. It's anti Soviet Union. So this whole, you know, this this is the conspiracy [47:08] theory that Zionists are everywhere, that they seek to undermine the security of the [47:14] socialist bloc. They are they walk hand in hand with America. And so this is [47:21] this becomes kind of the beginning of, of this massive propaganda campaign because they, they [47:28] think, okay, well, if Zionists are everywhere, then they need to be fought everywhere as well, with [47:33] all means at our disposal. Can you talk about that pipeline? Because as you describe it in your [47:38] essays, Like there, the Soviet anti-Zionism propaganda machine was so [47:44] prolific. And how did that get pushed to the U.S.? [47:51] So the Soviet Union financed CPUSA to the tune of millions of dollars. Toward the end of the Cold [47:57] War, uh, CPUSA published a number of uh journals, [48:03] magazines. And if you look, for example, at their publication, Political Affairs, you can [48:10] see it was their theoretical publication. You can see how the tone of their of how they [48:17] discuss Zionism in Israel changes in 67. So before 67, the word [48:23] Zionist, let's be clear about it. But the tone is not hysterical. You know, the tone is kind of [48:29] normal. It's like, okay, so these people are against Zionism. I understand why there is they have their [48:35] own logic, you know, it's fine. After 67, it acquires that demonizing [48:42] tone that the Soviets are now, uh, kind of piping, uh, piping out [48:49] through every channel that they have. And, uh, there's a really interesting episode associated [48:54] with CPUSA. Uh, the in 1973, which which actually brings us to the present moment as well. [49:01] So in 1973 or even in the early 70s, there is an operative, uh, whose name [49:08] is Hyman Lumer, uh, who is also who's a very senior party functionary and also an editor of, of [49:15] Political Affairs. Uh, writes a memo. He goes to Moscow, uh, to attend a [49:23] congress on Trotskyism, and he writes a memo to his handlers in Moscow and says, I'm coming for [49:28] this, uh, for this symposium. And I would like to would you facilitate some meetings for me that [49:34] would help me understand the Soviet position on Zionism, because I would like to write several [49:39] articles about it for Political Affairs, and I would like to write a book about Zionism as a, as [49:45] an enemy of socialism, basically. So it's a memo that's declassified. We have it, it's translated [49:51] into English. And clearly the answer is yes, because very soon after that, [49:58] articles do appear in Political Affairs about Zionism, that speak in that Soviet language. And a [50:04] book does appear about Zionism, I think it appears in 1973, which references some of Soviet [50:10] literature and speak in that language, that Soviet language expresses the Soviet point of view on [50:14] Zionism. Um, on the. In November of 2023, about a month [50:21] after October 7th, I came across a series of three articles on a [50:27] website that was clearly some kind of a descendant of that of one of [50:34] CPUSA's publications, which basically serialized that book that Hyman Lumer wrote in the wake of his visit [50:40] to the Soviet Union. And the editors presented, as you know, here's here's a book that was written in [50:46] the early 70s. Obviously, a lot of things have changed, but we think it's really important for [50:50] our young readers to understand this view on Zionism. And then they present the kind [50:57] of the condensed version of that book. So this is a very direct way in which basically the exact [51:03] Soviet propaganda is now reaching young people, uh, young, young people who may be interested in [51:10] understanding what's going on. But in many ways, you know, they so in many ways, look, the [51:17] influence of the UN, uh, the UN was very much under Soviet influence. Uh, again, that [51:24] that resolution equating Zionism with racism was incredibly influential. And the Soviets, it took [51:29] about ten years for the Soviets to bring the UN toward that point to adopt that resolution. They [51:35] first introduced this language in 65. So, uh, you know, so to this day, uh, [51:42] the the left refers to that resolution and says that, look, the UN declared Zionism is racism. Uh, [51:48] and even though it was repealed when the Soviet Union fell apart, they they discounted they don't [51:54] think it's important. Uh, they think it's important that it did declare it. And the whole anti-Israel [51:59] attitude at the UN that also begins very much under the influence of the Soviets and their Arab [52:06] allies. Right. Again, it's not just the Soviets, it's that it's the whole geopolitical game. Right? The [52:10] Arabs, the socialist states and the Soviet Union in the heart of it. And then there are people who [52:17] were very close to the Soviet Union, like Angela Davis, like people who were around Corbyn in the [52:23] UK, for example. Um, you know, they were very much some of his advisers and some of the British, like [52:30] George Galloway, you know, people who have actually said in the last decade or so that they regret [52:36] that the Soviet Union fell apart. You know, these people were part of that ecosystem. So the Soviet [52:42] Union built a leftist ecosystem, um, in support, not just in support of its [52:48] anti-Zionist propaganda. Right. They there were bigger goals. There was bigger fish to fry. You [52:54] know, it was all in support of the Cold War goals, right? anti-American, anti-Western. And so the [52:59] anti-Zionist part kind of got worked into that propaganda and into that ecosystem, and it became [53:06] a package. So if you were a leftist already by the early 70s, the [53:12] the far left in all its diversity, communists, socialists, Trotskyists, the New Left, the Black [53:19] Panthers, they are all speaking in this specific anti-Zionist language, this demonizing [53:26] anti-Zionist language and and observers at the time notice it. And they already say in the early 70s that [53:32] this whole anti-Zionist language, it's new anti-Semitism already. Then they say it. And so [53:39] my theory of it is that basically the far left adopts this language back then [53:46] and it becomes part of its worldview. So if you are a leftist, you, you know, there's a [53:53] package of causes that you adopt. So you must declare yourself anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist, [53:59] anti-colonialist, anti-racist and also anti-Zionist. And so I think essentially from that [54:05] time on, this this is kind of the creed. It remains that way, you know, and what I often [54:11] say in my lectures is that, look, the left is very diverse, the far left is very diverse. And there [54:17] are some doctrinal points that they disagree on very vehemently. And left wing academia has [54:24] developed new theories. Right. We now have intersectionality, there's critical theory, there's [54:29] all kinds of permutations of all of this. But the language of anti-Zionism [54:36] essentially remains the same. That's what I find so extraordinary. Not just that, but [54:42] anti-Zionism is the like the unified theory, the unifying cause of everything where you have, you [54:49] know, as you mentioned, the the left and especially the far left does have, you know, they're trying to [54:54] build a big tent coalition with different, different points in there and disagreements, [55:00] except for anti-Zionism. That's the like. You are you are not. You're off the ticket if you support [55:06] Israel. Yes, exactly. And can you talk a little bit about that? The idea, I mean, I think you talked [55:13] about or quoted Natty can talk about how Zionism [55:20] plays the bugaboo, um, of, you know, in Africa, it's apartheid. [55:26] In Latin America, it's imperialism. Can you like. That is such a foundational [55:33] part of today's anti-Zionism. Well, that's exactly right. So as the Soviets develop [55:41] their anti-Zionist propaganda in the 70s and 80s, they realized, like good marketers, right, [55:48] that you have to adjust your language to your target audiences. And so if you speak to the [55:55] leftists in and just broader audiences, you know, which they, interestingly enough, begin to identify [56:02] at some point as progressive humanity, you know, so so the communists, there's communists, but they [56:07] understand that they want to be reaching broader people. So progressive people are the people who, [56:12] you know, understand the world in their terms, who stand against America and the West and etc.. So [56:18] they understand that if you equate Zionists with Nazis, it's really understandable in Europe, [56:25] right? The Europeans immediately get what it means. But if you bring it to Africa, for example, it [56:30] perhaps touches fewer emotional chords than in Europe. But what touches stronger emotional chords [56:37] is if you equate Zionism with racism and apartheid, because they understood that at some [56:42] point the Palestinian cause is very new and they're trying to make it understandable to [56:47] different audiences. And so they say, well, look, you know how, um, what's happening in South Africa [56:53] that's apartheid. It's terrible. Right? Well, this is what's happening to Palestinians in the in Israel. [56:59] So they begin to make this equation as a way to make the Palestinian cause understandable. And so [57:05] some of their early players that they targeted were anti-apartheid activists on the left. So they [57:11] would make that equation. So, yeah, so they would adjust the language to uh, to [57:17] specific groups that they're targeting. One of the, one of the things that I find fascinating about [57:24] your writing, especially when it when it speaks to the modern academy in the [57:31] US. Like other conversations I've had with guests about anti-Zionism [57:38] in scholarship, it usually goes back to, well, this is, you know, the anti-colonial [57:45] theory or it's Foucault and Derrida, but it seems like it's it's [57:52] I don't want to say sinister, but it's a much more intentional, um, theory, not [57:58] theory, but it's a much more intentional propaganda that comes from the Soviet Union. I [58:03] mean, is that your read, too, or is there some. Is it all mixed up? Is there some of one in the other [58:09] together? Well, look, I think. All of it, uh. Works together and builds on each other. Again, [58:15] I don't want to make it sound like the Soviets controlled everything. They didn't, of course, but [58:21] the influences were there. You know, there were a lot of left wing intellectuals who were part of [58:25] these kind of pro-Soviet circles. You know, the thing that I find unsatisfactory about the postcolonial [58:33] theory explanation is that it doesn't explain how it is [58:40] that the language, the specific language of demonization is, is, is born. And why does it [58:47] sound exactly the same way as the Soviet language did? I think that what makes [58:54] sense to me is that the anti-Zionist feeling and anti-Israel feeling was already there, and the [58:59] language was already there, and when the postcolonial theory comes, it all kind of merges [59:05] together. You know, the post-colonial theory says what it says. And look here we have this example [59:11] of a settler colonial entity, Israel, with all of the language that goes with it. Because if you [59:18] look at Fanon, for example. You know, everybody says, look, Fanon, that's the beginning of [59:23] everything. But you look at fanon, you know, The Wretched of the Earth. There is nothing there [59:27] about, you know, Zionism or Israel demonization of of of these two. It doesn't say anything about [59:33] that. So so again, the theory doesn't quite explain, uh, the, uh, the [59:40] language, the appearance of the specific language of anti-Zionist demonization. So in 2023, as, as [59:46] this anti-Zionism was really exploding into more of the mainstream, um, there was a [59:52] group called the Institute for the Critical Study of Zionism, and its advisory board [60:00] doesn't explode, but its advisory board jumps in numbers. It almost doubles. Judith Butler is now [60:07] on it. Um, and you know it as you explain it. It [60:14] really goes back to that idea that, um, Zionism is everything kind of thing or and [60:20] that Guatemala's agriculture and North Korea's policy is all influenced by Zionism. It's it [60:27] reminds me of, you know, Matti Friedman wrote his essay on cosmology, and there's a book called what [60:33] Is it like? Uh, you know, Gaza and the destruction of the Earth. Is there any other philosophy or [60:40] like, unified theory of everything that is accepted in the modern [60:47] academic discourse? You know, like, I feel like it's it's so preposterous, it's almost laughable to see, [60:53] like, we're going to put everything into this one basket like it's our messianic [61:00] cause. Um, like, how does that happen? Yeah, well. That's a very good question. I'm [61:07] not sure I have an answer to it. I do know I do hear my academic friends grumble that, [61:14] um, you know, that there is a lot in the academy today, the academic theories [61:20] that, um, kind of, um, that attempt to say to [61:27] see, uh, similarity everywhere kind of unify everything into one thing, even when [61:34] these things are completely different. Um, so but I'm not sure I know, uh, what [61:40] else is out there? I'm very tempted to say that it's pretty unique to, um, [61:47] to to the treatment of, uh, Zionism, Israel and in general, Jewish topics, you know, which is [61:54] where it's like the conspiracy theories are so readily available and they seem so right. [62:01] I do think here that some of these tropes and, and understandings [62:07] are kind of lodged so deeply in our collective unconscious that it's just really [62:14] easy to reach for them and to see these connections where there actually aren't any. Where [62:21] you arrive at the idea that if ultimately the idea there is if you if only we solve, if only we [62:27] crack the Zionism problem. Basically, if only we do away with Zionism Israel, then everything will [62:33] magically get solved. All the problems around the globe will find magical solution, and then finally [62:38] there will be peace on earth. Um, and it's obviously, uh, illogical thinking. And I think it's [62:44] really interesting that it's become so dominant today. Yeah, especially in academia, where people [62:50] should theoretically know better. Do you think Judith Butler? Well, I you know, I don't want you to [62:55] have to speak for Judith Butler, but do you think that group understands where their [63:02] philosophy comes from, where their talking points originated? Well, [63:09] I really don't think so. I think that they will reject it if they heard it or thought about [63:16] it. You know, the left is quite, um, resistant to reflecting [63:22] on its path, on its past. I found it's certainly very resistant to reflecting [63:29] on its past failures, of which there are many. If it were different, then we wouldn't have this [63:35] explosion of of socialist and communist politicians because people would look back and [63:41] say, wow, look, the first time around this was tried. It created quite a disaster. Um, but [63:48] yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I don't want to speak for her, but I think I would be surprised if she [63:53] wanted to acknowledge that. How does it feel to you, having grown up in that, in having grown up [63:59] in a socialist society behind the Iron Curtain to see, uh, somebody like Zoran [64:06] Mamdani here in New York touting free grocery stores in the same breath that [64:12] he's saying that he's going to arrest Netanyahu. Two things that are, you know, somewhat [64:18] preposterous when you think about them from from a rational standpoint. Well, you know, when he [64:25] announced with great fanfare his grocery stores, state-owned grocery stores, I [64:32] immediately went and looked at their press release. And because, you know, 30% discount, I mean, [64:38] that's a pretty significant discount. So I thought, okay, well, probably this will be this. This has got [64:45] to be targeted to New Yorkers who truly can't afford groceries. So there will be some kind of [64:52] limitation based on income. And so I look at their press release and I see that they say it will be [64:56] open to everyone. And so then immediately, you know, it's just like it just takes a split second. You [65:02] know, my Soviet experience just comes into play. And and I immediately think of all the [65:09] ways of arbitrage of how this system can be gamed. You know, I again call my dad [65:16] and I tell him about it and he is like, well, they they will have empty shelves within five [65:21] minutes. You know, it's like it's so immediately clear to all of us. And I'm sitting there and I'm [65:27] like, why is nobody asking him about it? But later on, people began asking him about it. So and it [65:33] turned out that there will be some element of control to these stores. Uh, but yeah, it's you know [65:39] what? What I feel the most is frustration. Frustration that it's like, we've done this before. [65:46] You know, a different country has done this before. We fled that country. Look at the millions of [65:53] people from the USSR, from, you know, from Venezuela, from Cuba, who have arrived in [65:59] America and don't want anything to do with socialism. Why are we repeating it here in this [66:05] country? That's really the feeling that I have. One of the things that you wrote that I found very [66:10] illuminating was when you talked about how Soviet or the history of the Soviet Union in the [66:17] United States now is not really taught anymore that we see it as, you know, [66:23] communism was the opposition to McCarthyism. And so it's like it's it's very compressed. It's [66:30] very like almost marginal, like like this poor, oppressed communist ideology in the US. Like [66:37] how much of what we're seeing now is a failure of education, do you think? And what what's missing [66:44] from that? Well, I think I think it's a big part of it. [66:51] You know, look, I think we all look at things from our own kind of angles, and I'm very interested in [66:56] education. And I think, um, you know, whether education alone would have been enough. I don't [67:01] know, but I think it's it's it's a big factor. It's it's an important factor that has [67:08] played into the fact that so many young people apparently think that socialism will be great, and [67:14] they're ready to try and implement it in America. You know, when I come to speak to [67:21] to young audiences, I can see that they really know nothing. They they have absolute lack of [67:28] knowledge about the Soviet Union. And sometimes, actually, it's worse. Sometimes they think that the [67:34] Soviet Union was a force for good. And I think, you know, it's it's a it's a real issue. You know, [67:41] it means that they won't actually talk about America as a force for good. Uh, you know, I think [67:47] look, I think that democratic countries and countries, free societies and America in particular, [67:54] are very good at criticizing themselves, a self-criticism, and I admire it. You know, I [68:00] actually remember when I first came to this, to the US, I was astonished [68:06] at, uh, at the freedom with which people were criticizing their own government and all its [68:12] failures in newspapers and television. And it made me think that, wow, this is a country that's [68:19] really confident of itself. You know, because you really have to be very confident to not be afraid [68:25] of criticism. And this was a stark contrast for me coming from behind the Iron Curtain. And today, I [68:31] think that, you know, criticism is important, but I also think you need to to be taught. And [68:38] remember, you need to remember the good parts. And my feeling is that people haven't been really [68:43] people have been brought up in this mode of criticizing their own country and, and kind of [68:50] challenging Cold War narratives. That's a big thing that's challenged the Cold War narrative [68:55] during the Cold War. The Soviet Union was our enemy. The challenge that, you know, let's see if [69:00] that was really if it was so terrible. So. Okay. So it's it's good to think differently and it's good [69:06] to challenge. But but is there some stable actually some you need some stable narrative [69:12] there that tells you what is the basis what is your foundation. What do you view as as kind of [69:19] positive a positive force in general and the negative force? And I think that is that kind of [69:25] balance and standard kind of inner standard is missing and absent. So earlier this month you [69:30] wrote about everybody's favorite streamer. Now, um, Hasan Piker [69:37] that uh, that socialism. And I'm quoting certainly the Marxist-Leninist variety that he [69:43] follows makes anti-Semitism inevitable, no matter how much its [69:50] devotees condemn it. Um, how does that work? What what makes that [69:56] inevitable? Well. Look, I was just speaking from my own experience. Because if [70:03] you if you look, look. He's following Marxism-Leninism, right? Uh, Marx, uh, has that, uh, [70:10] infamous essay On the Jewish Question where he condemned Jews essentially as this petty [70:17] bourgeois merchants who are driven by this petty kind of considerations, greed, etc.. So that [70:23] essay actually had a big influence on on left wing intelligentsia. So that's already there. [70:30] And then the obsession with, uh, with Zionism that ultimately, uh, has been [70:37] part of the socialist experience. Uh, look, you look at the experience of [70:43] Jews under socialism, and you can't come to any other conclusion, but that [70:50] historically, this is what we have had, that Marxist-Leninist socialism creates and [70:57] creates anti-Semitism. Um, so this is why I, you know, certainly for Hasan. Piker. Who is [71:03] obsessed with Zionism and Israel and demonization of Zionism and Israel. I mean, that's just the [71:10] that's just anti-Semitism right there. It's funny you mentioned Marx and, uh, his [71:17] anti-Semitism, which is very rampant. Um, but do you [71:23] like and I think you make this case that that the language that is used the same way that for [71:30] Marxists historically, you know, capitalist was kind of interchangeable with Jew. Um, [71:37] that we have these same kind of tropes coming today where you have, like the Epstein class and [71:43] it's again, that like your landlord, the same way that the DSA platform now puts Gaza [71:50] in the same paragraph as your rent is too high. I mean, is this the same thing again? [71:58] I think so. Um. You know. I mean, the thing about this moment is that we have really the. [72:04] Full, uh. bouquet of anti-Semitic, uh, tropes across the aisle, right on the left [72:11] and on the right. And, you know, in, in my view, and in kind of in my research, I, [72:19] I believe that this, this form of anti-Zionism, uh, is inevitably [72:26] anti-Semitic because it's grounded essentially in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, in the same [72:32] tropes that are expressed in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Right. They repeat the tropes that [72:37] the Soviets land on. Uh. First, during late Stalin, uh, the [72:44] anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic campaigns, but also later, after 67, the tropes they land on [72:50] replicate the tropes of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. They replicate the conspiracy [72:56] theory, and that's why. So even though the Soviets are using the word, the words Zionist and [73:03] Zionism and Israel all the time, and only very rarely and mostly by mistake speak about Jews [73:10] because they are using the same tropes. They inevitably land in the [73:16] territory that is recognizable to any anti-Semite on the right as anti-Semitic [73:23] conspiracy theory. Which is why, you know, we have this strange phenomena, you know, which actually [73:28] predate October 7th. You know, as soon as Ilhan Omar, for example, was elected, we see David Duke [73:35] praising her. Right. We see the British right-wing neo-Nazis essentially [73:42] praising Corbyn for their anti-Zionist positions. You know, so it's very interesting. And [73:49] it would be comical if it weren't really tragic, actually, how the left spent so much time trying [73:55] to prove that it is only anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic, whereas the far right doesn't [74:01] care. You know, they're ready to. They're like, oh, sure, Hadamar is a Zionist. Great, because it's the [74:08] same thing. They get it. They hear the language, they hear the tropes, they hear their motifs. Fine. [74:13] Use the word Zionism. Avoid the word Jews. We know what you're talking about, you know. And this goes [74:19] actually to the to the question of why I think that the Marxist-Leninist version of socialism [74:25] will always produce anti-Semitism. It's again, it's because of their fixation on Zionism as an enemy, [74:31] as this comprehensive enemy of everything. And I'll add something else here from history that [74:37] it's not actually accidental, that Soviet anti-Zionist propaganda [74:43] replicates the tropes of the protocols of the Elders of Zion. Because if you look at the people [74:49] who devised it, they, you know, connects to the doublethink that we were talking about [74:55] earlier. You know, they spoke. They served, uh, the Soviet establishment. [75:02] And so overtly they had to speak that Marxist, late Soviet, Marxist-Leninist language, but [75:09] they themselves actually belonged on the Soviet far right. There was such a thing. There was, you [75:15] know, Soviet conservative opposition, uh, that very much instead of looking to the West the way [75:22] liberal opposition did it, they looked to this to the Russian past for inspiration. So to the [75:27] Orthodox Church, to the monarchy, they wanted to restore all of that. And and part of all of that [75:34] was anti-Semitic beliefs. They read all of this anti-Semitic literature that was published before [75:41] the revolution. And so essentially what they did is they sold the Soviet state anti-Semitic [75:47] conspiracy theory, which they expressed in the language that was acceptable to the Soviet state [75:53] and ultimately to the global left. So the foundation is the same, and it's recognizable to [75:58] anybody who is familiar or is inclined to anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. And that's why, you [76:04] know, we have this blossoming of conspiracy tropes on both the left and the right, because once you [76:10] start infusing, uh, the, the tropes into the system, as the left has now been doing for many, many, many [76:17] years, it opens all the floodgates. Were you surprised when you saw, uh, Candace Owens and [76:23] Tucker Carlson trafficking in the same language that the left is? I have to say. [76:30] I was like. That. That was just, you know. Yes, the short [76:37] answer is, the short answer is yes. You know, because especially with [76:43] Candace, I think she began she was the first one. And I could not believe my eyes when I [76:50] saw a post. This is a few years ago. I think it's before October 7th. I [76:57] it's hard to say now. Everything is a blur at this point. Maybe not. But anyway, she she posted [77:03] something about Bolshevik, the Bolshevik conspiracy theory, which is like the most [77:09] debunked anti-Semitic conspiracy theory ever. You know, it's a conspiracy theory that postulates the [77:16] Jews were behind the revolution, that they wanted, essentially, that this was a genocide of the [77:21] Russian people. You know, this like the there's the Russian nationalist, right? It's like it's it's [77:28] favorite theory. It continues to espouse it to this day. But historians have like looked at it [77:34] from the factual standpoint and debunked it. And here comes Candace Owens. And in the year of, I [77:41] don't know, 2000 or whatever, some recent year expounds this theory to her millions of [77:48] followers. And she adds that Stalin had Jewish wives. And I am just like, what [77:55] is this? Why is this happening? This is a nightmare. And and of course, it has continued since then. [78:01] And yeah, then we have Tucker. Yeah, I mean, I my emotions are hard to really [78:08] convey in one word. Are you worried, seeing that this is coming out of the DSA so strongly where [78:15] we have, you know, the the far left wing of the Democratic Party seems to be very ascendant. And [78:22] and the rocket fuel for their ascendancy is, uh, you know, [78:28] anti-Zionist activism and that messaging. How how worried are you about that [78:35] ascendancy? I am extremely worried about it. Um, [78:42] yeah. It's, uh, it's extremely worrying, uh, also because the Democratic Party, such [78:49] as it is, you know, the mainstream. Let's let's put it, mainstream. Democrats don't seem to be putting [78:55] up a whole lot of resistance to that, except for a couple of people. And I find it extremely [79:01] concerning. I think what they're probably thinking to themselves is that they they want to ride this [79:08] wave, uh, the energy, the enthusiasm that these candidates seem to be generating. But what [79:15] they don't understand is that if they're hoping that after the election, once they're in power, [79:20] they will be able to, to, um, uh, to kind of bring them to heel. I don't think they [79:27] understand what they're dealing with. Um, and I'm worried also, uh, because again, [79:34] look, the, uh, once you are in this realm of anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, as I, as I was just [79:40] saying, now, you know, it doesn't just stay on one side of the political spectrum. It spreads through [79:46] society. Obviously now we have a chunk of of. A constituency on the right that are very [79:53] much into anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, which, by the way, they're also often expressed in [79:57] anti-Zionist terms. Um, and then, you know, you read about anti-Semitic sentiments [80:04] just spreading like wildfire among young people, among high schoolers. It's like it's the cool [80:11] language. You know, it's fashionable, like fashionable language. And it's extremely [80:17] concerning. Look, it's not only about Jews. You know, if it were like [80:23] it, it would be enough, uh, if if Jews were the only target here. But, you know, Deborah [80:30] Lipstadt talks a lot about how anti-Semitism is extremely toxic to democracies. You know, it [80:37] undermines democracies. It's, um, you know, if you if you [80:44] believe that Israel controls the electoral process in America, that Israel controls the [80:51] White House, that Israel has the power to force America into its wars. [80:57] Well, then why even bother voting? You know, why would you even vote? It's like somebody else is in [81:04] control. You you know, you are in this territory where you start to lose agency as a citizen of a [81:11] democratic state. So, so yeah, it's and it's also a tool of um. Again, [81:18] Deborah Lipstadt says there's a lot that anti-Semitism is a favorite tool of autocracies [81:24] that they deploy against democratic states to stir up trouble. Right. To stir up [81:31] discord, to create divisions between us and, uh. Yeah, it's it's. [81:38] I it's it's funny. Ruth ā Ruth Wisse was on Habib's podcast, Rutgers [81:45] Podcast, recently. Talking about how anti-Semitism is not really has nothing to do with Jews. It is [81:51] instead a political technology to advance your own agenda. And when and then I'm reading your [81:57] essays, it just seems like the anti-Zionism piece is is right down that same [82:04] like theory. Well, I agree with that. Certainly to to considerable [82:10] degree, it can be used as a tool that's completely separate from your own feelings about Jews, which [82:17] is why when people say that anti-Semitism, when people define anti-Semitism strictly as hate, it's [82:24] it's a mistake. You know, it's a limited understanding of anti-Semitism. You, you know, it's [82:30] extremely tempting for social media entrepreneurs, you know, for budding politicians, for anybody who [82:36] is looking for big following to just jump on this wave, and then you immediately [82:43] gain so many followers and you probably have money thrown at you. You monetize your accounts. Uh, [82:50] so yeah, it's a very useful tool. It's a topic that creates, uh, you know, stirs deep and dark emotions. [82:56] And again, in today's world, there are a lot of states that are trying to undermine the West and [83:03] the United States, undermine us, kind of demoralize us. Right? It's the the question of [83:09] ideological subversion. Uh, and so then they jump on on that as well and start supporting [83:16] anything you, any anybody says on the topic. So yeah, I can imagine that. It's extremely, um, it's [83:23] extremely tempting, uh, as a tool. So what do we do? You know, Holocaust education [83:30] was kind of the the main vehicle for education about Jews and anti-Semitism for decades. [83:37] Now, clearly, as you've written, that doesn't inculcate against [83:44] anti-Zionism. Um, so what is what is the solution is is there? I mean, I'm sure it's not [83:51] an easy one, but is there one? Well, you know, there isn't a fast [83:57] solution. That's. I think that there are solutions. Um, and I think we are at a [84:04] state where at a stage where kind of we're all offering different solutions. We're all looking at [84:10] things through our own perspectives. Um, I. Yet again think that education is important. [84:16] And by the way, the Holocaust education can be useful as well, but not in the form in which we [84:22] have done it until now. Um, I do think that we should be educating young [84:29] people about, uh, about anti-Zionism, about Zionism, about Jews. Uh, [84:35] more broadly, you know, there are whole talks about how we need to be educating people about Jewish [84:41] civilization. Um, I think there is this term or this [84:48] idea of prebunking, uh, where you expose people, young people especially to, [84:55] um, ideological to these toxic ideological ideas. It's like inoculation, you know, before they kind [85:02] of enter the big wide wild west of, uh, of the internet to show them how [85:10] propaganda works, how some of the ideas are used to, um, you know, for propagandistic purposes. I [85:17] think that that's, uh, that's useful. I know that some people are working on that. Uh, but more than [85:23] anything, I think it's education. Education about communism, about communist, uh, track record, about [85:29] the Soviet Union and totalitarianism more broadly. I think all of that is helpful. Again, these are [85:34] not fast decisions. These are not fast solutions. But I don't think we can solve this problem [85:40] through talking points. I think it will take much, much more than that. I think for Jews it will take [85:47] a deepening of of their identity. And, and I think more broadly for Americans, I [85:54] think we need to, um, you know, you know, the one silver lining maybe about this [86:00] very difficult and dark moment is that I think it has the it gives us an opportunity to rethink, as [86:07] Americans why it is that we appreciate the United States. [86:14] What is it that we appreciate about the system, the country, the democracy, the institutions, [86:21] the free markets? Uh, because I think the radicals are winning because they have, uh, [86:28] they have high level of conviction. They are coming with a clear cut ideas, and [86:35] they're expressing them in this, in this way of like that, that inspires other people. I think we [86:41] need to remind ourselves, what is it that we really value about our country, and learn to [86:48] express that in a way that that creates a vision for the future that others want to share as well. [86:54] You wrote in your in your book, which was aimed at young people, um, to be a refusenik, [87:01] what does that entail? And especially for, you know, a younger generation who has never heard that [87:06] term? Yeah. So can I show. Up, please. Plug [87:13] the cover, Be a Refusenik: A Jewish Student Survival Guide with a foreword by Natan Sharansky. [87:18] So the refuseniks were those Soviet Jews that I mentioned earlier who decided to [87:25] fight for their Jewish identity. You know, and it was remembered mostly as a fight for [87:31] immigration. But they they were but they were refused to emigrate. They were refused the right [87:37] to emigrate in the Soviet Union. And so they spent years fighting for the right to emigrate. And in [87:42] the meantime, they really recreated their Jewish and Zionist identity from scratch. [87:49] And the stories of the refuseniks, I think, were incredibly inspiring. I think that what [87:55] we're missing today as Jews is stories of Jewish heroism. And the refuseniks were [88:02] heroic in ways that are different from the way. For example, Israelis are heroic when they defend [88:07] their country because for them it was specifically it was nonviolent. Right. And it was [88:13] really a fight, again, for their identity and to see how important it was for them [88:20] and what they withstood in that fight, I think, is incredibly important and inspiring and has [88:26] lessons for this moment. It's stories of Jewish courage and defiance and and and we need those [88:32] today. How do we be? How do we be? How does one become a refusenik in [88:39] in our current state? What is that? Well, so. So look. So I use the [88:46] word refusenik a little bit differently from its original meaning. And actually the leaders of the [88:51] refusenik movement in fact thought of them this way. So the refusenik was a term that the state [88:57] applied to them essentially that these were people who were refused the exit visas. But the [89:02] refuseniks thought of themselves as people who, you know, they said, look, before you refuse us, [89:09] we refused you. You know, so what is it that they refused? Okay. So they refused the Soviet Union as [89:15] a whole. But that's not the sense in which I, I use it. They also refused this idea that it's [89:22] okay for them as Jews to, to, to sort of to, to agree to live in an anti-Semitic [89:29] environment in which they are treated as second class citizens. They refuse the idea that they [89:35] have to separate themselves from the Jewish state, and they refuse the idea that they have to [89:39] separate themselves from Zionism and from Hebrew. They insisted that all of it was part of their [89:45] identity, and this is what they fought. And so to me, to be a refusenik today, and I could tell you, [89:51] it's just it's even you can see it even in the titles of the chapters of my book, the ā the [89:57] first of which is Reclaim Your Zionism. You know, so that's already a defiant kind of [90:03] posture, which, you know, it's not just my recipe that I invented out of my head. This is [90:10] based on interviews with actual refuseniks from that Soviet time and young people today who are [90:16] also espousing the same idea. So reclaim your Zionism. There's another chapter [90:22] titled Reject Victimhood. So reject the idea that, you know, I was. I've been told that this is the [90:28] most controversial title of all the chapters, which surprised me, but the idea here is, you [90:34] know, we have been victims in our history. We have been persecuted. But we shouldn't make [90:41] victimhood part of our identity. We should really be thinking about thinking of ourselves as [90:47] courageous people who have overcome persecution. So this is another way, you know, another chapter is Find [90:54] Your Comrades in Arms. I think it's really important for anybody who rejects, who [91:00] refuses the status quo to find other people who think like them, you know, find their comrades [91:07] in arms, find other people, study with them, share you know, share your thoughts and ideas with them. [91:12] Start a movement with them. So these are the kind of ideas that I have in the book. One last [91:17] question. Um, to a 19 or 20 year old college student. Jewish college [91:24] student who is surrounded by the JVP groups. the [91:31] IfNotNows who are the anti-Zionist Jews who are so loud on campus? [91:38] What do you say to a young Jew in school who [91:45] is not, who is now confused about where they are and what they stand for? [91:52] Well, uh, you know, I go back to, uh, to the [91:59] question of, uh, identity. You know, if they look, if they attempted to join them, then that's that's a [92:05] separate story. If they're trying to figure out how to, uh, how to [92:12] behave toward them or how to interact with them, I actually would say that they shouldn't even [92:17] necessarily interact with them. You know, there is this I think we spend a lot of time thinking [92:22] about how do we convince the anti-Zionist Jews to understand [92:29] how you know the way? All the ways in which they are wrong. And I actually think that it shouldn't [92:36] be our priority. I think our priority should be, you know, somebody who's already convinced and [92:41] radicalized to that point. No, they won't change their mind just from from talking to you. [92:48] And a lot of times they won't even engage with you. So I think we should be spending more time [92:53] engaging with people who are open, in fact, to hearing our point of view, who are open to [93:00] understanding what what is the Jewish perspective, the broader Jewish perspective on Zionism and [93:05] Israel who aren't just coming at you throwing out this, the label of [93:12] genocide, and who will be open to hearing the evidence that there isn't there hasn't been [93:19] a genocide. I think we should be making more friends among people who I think sometimes today [93:25] we're taking for granted, you know, people who don't necessarily even live on on [93:32] those in those radicalized coastal environments, uh, who are maybe in the Midwest, [93:39] maybe in the South. Um, I think we should be pouring much more energy into that. And I'm very [93:45] much also with, uh, Shabbos Kestenbaum, who is one of my protagonists in the book, who says that the [93:51] Jewish establishment really should stop pouring so much money into fighting anti-Semitism and [93:57] should be investing much more in Jewish education, Jewish day school so that they can be affordable [94:03] to everyone. And obviously, a lot will need to be rethought. You know, people often point out, look, [94:09] some of these anti-Zionist Jews actually did receive Jewish education. So we need to rethink [94:14] how we teach Zionism and Israel. But I think making that accessible to more [94:21] American Jews, I think is absolutely crucial. Izabella Tabarovsky, thank you so much for joining [94:26] us today. Thank you for having me, Ben. [94:35] Here's what stayed with me. I came in expecting a story about influence, old ideas [94:41] leaking forward into new ones. That's not what she describes. She describes a product [94:48] designed, packaged, exported, and a product that outlives the company that made it. The [94:55] factory is closed. The merchandise is still on the shelf, but the part I keep turning over is the [95:01] method. The genius of it wasn't the accusation, it was the footnote. Take a real wound and [95:08] retell it as collaboration. Because once Zionists are Nazis, everything else flows from [95:15] there. Nazis are the secular devil. If you can prove someone is a devil without sounding [95:22] religious or sounding racist, you can charge them with anything and people will believe [95:29] it. Built in the 60s. Still running in your feed tonight. I asked what she'd say to a Jewish [95:35] kid on campus like that, and her answer surprised me. Stop trying to win that argument. Someone [95:42] already radicalized isn't going to be talked out of it by you in a hallway with [95:49] a better fact. Spend it on the people who are actually open, the ones we've been taking for granted and get ahead [95:55] of it. She calls that prebunking. Teach the history before the slogan gets there. Less money [96:02] fighting anti-Semitism after it arrives. More in Jewish education families can afford. Her book [96:09] is built on the refuseniks who told the Soviet state before you refused us, we refused you. [96:16] Her first chapter is called Reclaim Your Zionism. So here's what I'm taking out of this one. When [96:21] something sounds like it came from nowhere, it didn't. Someone wrote it. Somebody paid for it. [96:28] Somebody printed the footnotes. So go look them up. You can find Izabella's book, Be [96:34] a Refusenik, wherever you buy your books. And her writing at Tablet and the Wilson Center. Links are [96:41] in the description. If this one changed how a slogan sounds to you, do me a favor. Leave the [96:47] show a rating and a review on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. It's the [96:54] single biggest thing that helps new people find us. And if you're not already, subscribe, hit the [96:59] notification bell and follow HonestReporting on Instagram, X, TikTok, and Facebook. I'm Ben [97:06] Chertoff. This is The Honest Take and we'll see you next time.
